Difference between revisions of "Week 15 Questions/Comments"
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| − | One of the things that stood out to me during these readings was in "The Office Clerk" when the office manager was listing all of the reasons women were superior towards men for these positions. Among these reasons were that they almost always present for the work day and not making up silly excuses for an absence and the precision that they conducted their work in. I found it surprising that this man had such high praise for women. Could he have been saying this to the interviewer (Clara Lanza) to appease the female crowd who would be reading her article? Or did he really feel this way towards his female workers? Did the fact that companies could get away with paying women less than men factor into this appreciation for women clerks? - Elizabeth Frank | + | One of the things that stood out to me during these readings was in "The Office Clerk" when the office manager was listing all of the reasons women were superior towards men for these positions. Among these reasons were that they almost always present for the work day and not making up silly excuses for an absence and the precision that they conducted their work in. I found it surprising that this man had such high praise for women. '''Could he have been saying this to the interviewer (Clara Lanza) to appease the female crowd who would be reading her article? Or did he really feel this way towards his female workers? Did the fact that companies could get away with paying women less than men factor into this appreciation for women clerks?''' - Elizabeth Frank |
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| + | I also thought the piece titled "The Office Clerk" was interesting. Throughout the readings in this course, I have not come across many men that have spoken about women with such respect and general appreciation of their skills. I was under the mistaken impression that although women were considered to be the superior moral authority, they were never considered superior when performing the same tasks as a man, although paid less. It was interesting to read that many employers would seek female clerks over men, actually appreciating them for their intellect. ~Juliann Boyles | ||
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| + | I found the article "Objections to Domestic Service" in that Lucy Salmon polled servants and their employers and from that managed to come up with a list of disadvantages. These disadvantages were an effort to dissuade young, American born women from entering this type of service. Such "industrial disadvantages" include "lack of all opportunity for promotion," "lack of organization in the service," "irregularity in working hours," "competition with the foreign born and the negro element," and "the interference with work often by those less skilled than the workers themselves." I can understand Salmon's reasoning for wanting to keep women from working as domestic servants. However, '''I'm slightly confused when she comments on how with the professions of seamstresses, clerks, trained nurses, and teachers can lead to promotions in the working environment. So in that sense, Salmon is urging women to pursue jobs other than domestic servitude. But is she at all encouraging them to return to the home?''' -- Vanessa Smiley | ||
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| + | I think, in response to Vanessa's question, that Lucy Salmon felt that she was encouraging women to return to the home. Where else would they be if not in the work place? They would be at home with their housework and their families. By expressing the disadvantages of the working world she was able to show women what they would be missing from their home if they joined the workforce, without listing all the things to be done at home and the need to be at home. For some that would probably encourage them to work. Also I think that Lucy Salmon was well aware that the majority of women in the workforce were working because they had to to support their families and they would return to the home if it was possible. --Mary P. | ||
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| + | I liked the interview contained in Lucy Maynard Salmon’s piece called "Objections to Domestic Service". I thought it was interesting that the girl answering the question “Why do girls dislike domestic service?” says that factory workers are smarter, make better wives, and have cleaner homes while domestic workers that get married become careless and lazy with their housework even though that was their job before marriage and they should probably know how to do it well. I don’t think she really has any proof of this, it’s more about reassuring herself and everyone else that she is in fact a good candidate for marriage. She probably saw marriage as a way out of factory work.-- Jennifer Feldhaus | ||
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| + | I agree with you Jennifer. I think that marriage is certainly a way | ||
| + | out for her. I think the girl's views are something that is | ||
| + | unfortunately still seen today. There is usually, unfortunately, a | ||
| + | negative connonation sometimes on housewives. Some seem to think that | ||
| + | their job of being a housewife is an easy occupation, and makes them | ||
| + | lazy. Yet, we all know that this is not the case. Yet, whether the | ||
| + | girl's comments are about reasuring her self or not, I can see how | ||
| + | she feels like her job is more disciplined and more of a "good | ||
| + | candidate" for a wife. --Talya | ||
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| + | When I was reading the 1st three pieces for class I thought that it was interesting how they all compared to each other. In the first reading Hellen Campbell talked about how difficult life was for working women, she compared the desperate women all seeking jobs in shops to the even more desperate women who were forced into doing difficult piece work like laundry, sewing, or ironing. The second piece, by Salmon was equally concerned about women working but this time in domestic service (as servants in another person's household) What I found most interesting about this was the problems women had with the profession some of which were very much racially driven- one woman even said that it was a problem for her to work with a Chinese man because he did not know how to "treat women". The final piece talked about how African American women needed jobs so desperately that even women who had college educations had to work as domestic servants. These women hated such work because it was too much like slavery for them. Honestly I think that the African American women have the most to be concerned about, they have a terrible time getting jobs they hate and in some cases are overqualified for. --Julie Castanien | ||
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| + | I know that I already commented on these readings but I just wanted to point out something that I did not mention that I think is worthy of discussion. '''In the Isabel Eaton reading (Black Servants in Philadelphia) there is a mention of "light" black women and men "passing" as white and having better job security as domestic servants unless their bosses discover the truth.''' --Julie Castanien | ||
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| + | In Julia Ward Howe's writing under "The Joys of Activism," whether this is intended as propaganda or not, it certainly could be and nicely done. I love how she describes the moment she realized that women could and should do better than where they were. "During the first two thirds of my life I looked to the masculine ideal of character as the only true one... In an unexpected hour a new light came to me... The new domain now made clear to me was that of true womanhood - woman no longer in her ancillary relation to her opposite, man, but in her direct relation to the divine plan and purpose, as a free agent, fully sharing with man every human right and every human responsibility." She's certainly encouraging any that read this that she 'saw the light' you could say and the reader can have these realizations too. -- Vanessa Smiley | ||
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| + | I found "Working Women Debate Woman Suffrage" very interesting, especially the entries from "Americus". The person writing these seemed to be extremely bitter towards men. She states that "we won't stay at home any more and cook and wash dishes either; we've done it long enough; let 'him' do it a little while."(Woloch 366) It just seems like she's extremely bitter that women do so much work with raising children and keeping the house clean, but men appear to go out have a good time with their friends and thats it. -Elizabeth frank | ||
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| + | When reading "We Are All Bound up Together," I found it telling when Frances Ellen Harper related her story of life after losing her husband. She was left with four children and no money. Someone even took her to court over a bed. She then discusses how if she had been a man, she would have been remarried by now and would not be facing economic hardship. --E. Hufford | ||
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| + | Isabel Eaton really exemplifies the challenge black men and women faced in finding jobs. There was no guarentee that they would get a job and often times they settled for domestic service. Even if they were educated, "white help" was always preferred. Many people gave up trying to find work outside of the domestic service branch because of this ideology. Black men and women were also refused domestic jobs because of the color of their skin in many cases. --E. Hufford | ||
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| + | Going along with the comment above me, I thought Isabel Eaton's survey of black servant workers was really interesting. The fact that she learned black men and women stuck with domestic servitude regardless of how terrible the job was because they feared rejection is just heartbreaking. I also was intrigued by how one of the reasons they gave to themselves about rejection for domestic servitude was because "if the mistresses has bad luck with one colored girl they won't never have another." It's just a terrible understanding and way of living and it really shows how, even though they were emancipated and technically free, it was like they were still slaves, except this time they were being paid a very minimal amount of money. -Kelly Wuyscik | ||
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| + | I agree with both comments pertaining to Isabel Eaton's account of black workers. Their situation was really a horrible and sad thing. I think it's also interesting to note that Eaton was conducting her survey in the North where many people fought against slavery, yet, as Kelly said, the people participating in the survey were essentially still slaves.--Kaitlyn G. | ||
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| + | Clearly, racism was just as prevalent in the North as it was in the South - one could argue even more so. When reading Eaton's piece, I was just struck with such great sympathy for their plight. The US government tells them they are free - that they are to no longer live like slaves, but their sad economic reality forces only forces them into another form of slavery. '''What happens to the unlucky black men and women that are unable to find work anywhere? How did they survive? How did they feed their children and themselves, where did they live? At this point, how supportive was the US govt to the unfortunate plight of freed black men and women?''' ~Juliann | ||
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| + | I found Leonora Barry's piece on the Knights of Labor to be very interesting. I thought that it showed many of the characteristics mentioned by some of the other readings, the fact that she was a widow with three children for example. She seemed however, to be a very strong woman, one who embrassed her work and her position as master workman. What I found really interesting was that she and others went around educating the children in the factories and such and pushing for the children who are working to be educated in an effort to erase the social and economic situation that causes the circumstances that drive mothers into the workplace. --Mary P. | ||
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| + | I also thought the "Office Clerk" by Clara Lanza was an interesting document. I thought it was particularly intersting how it said that women never complained about things like "...the temperature of the building [being] too hot or too cold or that the light is not properly adjusted." Women might not have complained about things like the temperature or light, because they were happy to be able to have a job period that was outside of the home. Men however, could complain about those things and easily get a new job if their current job didn't suit them. ~K. Stinson~ | ||
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| + | One trait that I found interesting in “The Office Clerk” was the insistence that office work did not make women unfit for marriage. In fact, the author claims that employment offers these young women the opportunities to meet and wed eligible bachelors, and these working girls often make particularly fine wives. '''I particularly enjoyed the claim that “men have outgrown their admiration for feminine helplessness and have come to look upon independence as something worth having.” I have to wonder how much of that was actually true and how much was simply the hope of the female author. Unfortunately, we still have women today who fake ignorance or weakness to attract men; how common would it have been in the 19th century?''' --Ashley H. | ||
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| + | I also noticed the focus on marriage in "The Office Clerk." In my opinion, the author insisted on this point because she wanted to emphasize that a woman could work as an office clerk and still be a part of the domestic sphere. It showed that, as single woman, it was okay for them to work. It even helped them find a good husband to support them. - F. Cobb | ||
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| + | I particularly enjoyed Sadie Frowne's account of her life as a garment worker in a sweatshop. I associated many of the things she said with stories I remember from older relatives. Much of her story was familiar--the constant machines, the long hours, the appreciation for the union, the freedom of life as an independent factory worker, her immigrant status. But at the same time, many of the details were unique, which made her story feel new. I haven't heard this story about Polish immigrant workers as frequently. I've read stories about days off at pleasure areas like Coney Island, but rarely has the location been Coney Island. Sadie's concerns about not being a socialist or an anarchist make sense in light of the paperwork immigrants had to sign and the great concerns about labor's connections to socialism. I found her acknowledgment that she didn't even know what she was denying very touching. --A. Meyer | ||
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| + | '''What really struck me about "A Sweatshop Girl's Story" was how Sadie Frowne felt about injuries sustained on the job in factories. ''' From the way she was talking, she made it seem like these injuries were no big deal. If you hurt your finger, you just wrap it with a bit of cotton, if the injury is worse than that, you may have to have that finger amputated, but, you just accept it and go on with your life. Maybe injuries like that were so common in those factories, that it truely was no big deal. ~K. Stinson~ | ||
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| + | The excerpt I enjoyed the most was Sadie Frowne's tale, A Sweatshop Girl's Story. Quite a few things stuck out to me. First, I always assumed that women hated working in the factories because all you hear is how back breaking and boring the work is but she seems to take it in stride. She even talks about how nice it was when the union fought and won for them to "only work nine and half hours." '''She understood that if she worked hard sooner or later she would fulfill her own American Dream (did that concept exist then?)'''. I was w'''ondering when she says, on page 309 that "Harry has seen me home every night for a long time and makes love to me," if she meant pre-marital sex because she says it so non-chalantly.''' I agree with K. Stinson that I found it very strange how she described getting hurt in the work place as no big deal. Basically the vibe I got from her account was that while she was proud of her independence, her whole life was based around trying to become the accepted middle class girl. She talks about reading and educating herself, saving money, how ignorant people are low, and how a girl needs to have nice clothes in order to get into high society. -- Emily Miller | ||
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| + | In response to Emily's comment on "A Sweatshop Girl's Story," I've read works where "making love" simply referred to wooing or courtship, not necessarily pre-marital sex, so I think it's quite possible that Frowne is using this meaning here. Additionally, I liked this piece for its depiction of a complete life which included work, school, a boyfriend, and entertainment such as dancing and theater. The lives of these women were difficult, but they were not all drudgery. Frowne remarks, "at the end of the day one feels so weak that there is a great temptation to lie right down and sleep. But you must go out and get air, and have some pleasure." I wonder if this attitude was common among the working women, or if this is an unusual example of girlish optimism and enthusiasm for life. --Ashley H. | ||
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| + | I really liked Sadie Frowne's account of working in the factory as well. It reminded me a lot of A Tree Grows in Brooklyn. I was sort of surprised at the fact that she talked about her leisure time and her extra money. I guess I'm biased because I read books like A Tree Grows in Brooklyn and Angela's Ashes that talk about how much immigrant families have to work to get by and how strapped for cash they were. '''Additionally, when she was talking about her daily routine, I had to laugh when she said, "I have heard that there is a sort of clock that calls you at the very time you want to get up, but I can't believe that because I don't see how the clock would know" (309). Oh, Sadie, you can have my alarm clock'''.--Kaitlyn G. (Happy last wiki post everyone!) | ||
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| + | '''I was reading Sadie's Frowne's piece and like Kaitlyn other books came to mind. Has anyone read "Lydie," or "The Jungle"? A non-fiction which is also very telling of factory life the "The Bells of Lowell". All three describe in detail the horrors of factory / mill life and the impact a regulated life had on young women and immigrant families.''' --K. Vance | ||
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| + | '''I found the letter written by Americus from "Working Women Debate Suffrage" quite intriguing.''' She mocked equality by chosing to point out the most grotesque male qualities and declaring that now women could partake in them since they were equal. For instance, spitting tobacco, talking in slang, and snoring were all characteristics she declared women could now mimic. Reading this in the sarcastic manner for which it was intended, it can serve as an example of how some working class women saw suffrage as a threat to the familiar. Although many working class women supported equal wages, it did not necessarily mean they wanted the right to vote. In the introduction, Woloch points out that many working class women identified themselves more with their class than their gender, and some of these women felt suffrage only threatened class unity.- Lisa Wilkerson | ||
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| + | I agree with Lisa, these letters really helped me to understand where women against womans suffrage were coming from. Americus is really very interesting and '''while "spitting tobacco juice upon the trowsers of the gentlemen who pass" is not on the top of my list of things to do, I can understand why she feels threatened'''. --Allison Johnson | ||
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| + | I also found the Americus letter interesting, since I've had a hard time understanding arguments (beyond the ones from women who preferred to stay at home and were happy with the lives they led) against female-male equality. I've heard arguments about the potential problems with true equality (nursing mothers being drafted, etc)made in a modern sense, but this was one of the first real accounts I'd read of the problems with true equality and suffrage. --A. Meyer | ||
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| + | In response to Lisa and Andrea, though, I was impressed with Ella A. Little's letter to the editor that was a response to Americus. She acknowledged what we had learned, which is that there were women who were completely content with being taken care of by their husbands and happy with the lives they were leading. But I really loved when she went on to address that they knew little about the hardships a majority of women faced and how often these women really wanted to make a change or earn a bit more equality and never had a way to express their interests or desires and voting was the way for them to accomplish those goals. It really must have struck a nerve when she said those women opposed to suffrage must thank their good luck since most women did not have their luxuries. -Kelly Wuyscik | ||
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| + | In Charlotte Perkins Gilman's "The Ills of the Home", she makes a profound observation when she says, "The permanent error of the housewife lies in the assumption that her love for her family makes her service satisfactorily." A mother washes the clothes, fixes the meals, and cleans the house because she loves her family, but that's not saying if she didn't do those things she would love them less. Gilman makes a great point here when she suggests that one of the reasons mothers have so much difficulty entering the workforce is because they are met with such guilt from society; a society which does not comprehend that mothers may interpret these chores as duties and may need to look elsewhere for personal fulfillment.- Lisa Wilkerson | ||
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| + | '''Reading "We Are All Bound up Together" reminded me of the very first readings we did in this class, which stated that one could not simply study "women's history," because it was a complex topic that had a lot different aspects. This text shows that much, by pointing out that indeed the position of black women was much different than the position of white women.''' Harper points out an example using the street cars. She notes that white women speak of "rights," but that she is speaking of the wrongs done to her race and gender -that everybody is against her. The article "An Anti-Speaks Out" had an interesting tidbit, saying: "While more practical and sensible women are tyring to put their kitchens...in order.." This makes me wonder what the ration of married to unmarried women are in the suffragist movement compared to the anti-suffragist movement. If I had to guess, it would be that anti-suffragists are more often in a marriage. | ||
| + | -Christopher Plummer | ||
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| + | I liked the piece "Political Lessons" by Stanton and Anthony. Both of these women were great and persuasive writers. I know we had talked about how the NWSA did not accept male members, but I was surprised that they explicitly said that men could not join. This piece really shows that that the NWSA was much more militant and aggressive than the AWSA. - F. Cobb | ||
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| + | '''I was surprised when Barry wrote about child labor in "A Labor Organizer." She mentions that Pennsylvania had 125,00 children under the age of 15 working in workshops, factories and mines. I was surprised their were so many, and what made PA so bad in this respect?''' I'm glad the Knights of Labor worked to elevate women and put them in the classroom to be educated. --Alex K. | ||
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| + | In "A Sweatshops Girl's Story" I was surprised about how calm she was about all the injuries that took place. She mentions needles going through the nail or finger and sometimes splintering the bone yet doesn't seem to upset by it. Was she just used to it? Did she assume she couldn't do better? Or was it really not all that bad? --Alex K. | ||
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| + | '''There are some horrific stories that come out of the mills and sweatshops. Men, Women and Children were all forced to work under horrific conditions for very little pay and the jobs were often deadly.''' There are injuries like Alex mentioned as well as shuttlies flying off the looms and hitting girls in the head. There are children who worked as doffers who lose hands or fingers trying to change and collect bobbins. Women getting their hair caught in the machines was also a common occurence. Then there's also the dieseases that can be caught from living and working in such horrible and close conditions. I believe TB was common as well as lung infections, particularlly in the textile mills where cotton and lint was constantly floating in the air. I don't beleive that anyone could get use to those situaitons and the accidents that occured around them. However, what is important to remember is that each time a someone was hurt, they were likely sent home and therefore lost the income their wages provided them with. Therefore, it might be resonable to say that even though the accidents were occuring around them it was a fact of life and she'd probably continue focusing on her own work and pray that it didn't happen to her. -K. Vance | ||
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| + | '''While "Shop Girls and Piece Workers" was not shocking to me, I couldn't help but wonder if it would actually have been shocking to women of the day. I mean, even middle or upper class women had to be aware of what lower class women were doing. So did this book actually shock any one at the time?'''-- Allison Johnson | ||
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| + | I agree with Lisa's comments on "The Ills of the Home". I do feel that many women must have wished to engage in a skilled labor, especially those of the lower classes. While the need to provide monetary support is undoubtedly a major motivator, its seems the support of societal development also played a part. There seems to be a disconnect between housework and advancing society within the article. I wonder how much this sentiment was shared throughout the female community of the period. --Robert Kopp | ||
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| + | The piece by Isabel Eaton in response to black servants in Philadelphia was very interesting. At first I read the piece without taking in the context of where this was occurring, which was not a southern city, but a northern city. We discussed some in class about the difficulty blacks faced in the South trying to find jobs, particularly with their skills focused mostly on agriculture, but I had not given it much thought for northern cities. '''Eaton touched on the idea that many white women chose other white women over domestic servants, which is a practice that makes sense in the post Civil War South, but what factors influenced white women’s decisions to not hire blacks in the North? Was it purely racism? Bitterness in the post war era?''' I would think white women could pay black women less, so in a market where supply and demand is crucial, white women could take advantage of high numbers of domestic servants to obtain high quality service for low prices. Was this not the case? Is there evidence of the same practices in other large, northern cities? -Mary Beth Dillane | ||
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| + | In “Objections to Domestic Service” by Lucy Salmon it’s interesting to read the personal reasons many women had for disliking their jobs as domestic servants and I agree with Vanessa’s comment that her survey results could be used to persuade young women from going into any type of servant employment. Lucy Salmon may have felt that domestic servitude was beneath women and they should pursue other occupations that have more advantages including: opportunities for promotion, regular working hours, and personal independence.-Caitlin Quinn | ||
