Difference between revisions of "Week 9 Questions/Comments"
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| + | == General Questions == | ||
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| + | What do these pieces tell us about the perceptions of male and female gender roles of the time?<br> | ||
| + | o About perceptions of marriage?<br> | ||
| + | o Of Single women? Of Widows?<br> | ||
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| + | What do they say about education for women?<br> | ||
| + | o How was it justified or rejected?<br> | ||
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| + | What different pieces of advice are women given?<br> | ||
| + | What differences in perspective can we see among women about their proper role in society?<br> | ||
| + | Who wrote about women and women’s roles?<br> | ||
| + | How are these primary sources different from those previously seen? How are they the same<br> | ||
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| + | What role did “the school and mill” (as Woloch puts it) play in the lives of 19th Century women?<br> | ||
| + | o Why was teaching seen by some (like Beecher) as a woman’s profession?<br> | ||
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| + | What was going on out West in the early to mid 19th Century? How did that affect the women in those areas, or those who went to those areas?<br> | ||
| + | o What did middle class women think of moving westward?<br> | ||
| + | o What was it like to be a pioneer woman?<br> | ||
| + | o How did one’s race/ethnicity shape one’s experience in the antebellum West?<br> | ||
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| + | What options were open for women in the West at this time?<br> | ||
| + | What is free-labor ideology? Did it apply at all to any women?<br> | ||
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| + | == Class Discussion == | ||
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I’m rather amazed with the strict order imposed on a middle class housewife, as read in Catharine Beecher’s “System and Order”. Each day of the week is filled with a specific chore that is repeated the following week. It seems like such a lifestyle would become repetitious and mundane, yet Beecher refers to this “taste for regularity” as a “blessing”. How come?- Lisa Wilkerson | I’m rather amazed with the strict order imposed on a middle class housewife, as read in Catharine Beecher’s “System and Order”. Each day of the week is filled with a specific chore that is repeated the following week. It seems like such a lifestyle would become repetitious and mundane, yet Beecher refers to this “taste for regularity” as a “blessing”. How come?- Lisa Wilkerson | ||
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| + | I also found the piece “System and Order” by Catharine Beecher very interesting. The idea of a system for household duties and turning the house into a well-functioning, successful entity I think is reflective of the shifts going on in society. The shift from home production to office/factory production, the shift from agricultural, home-made/imported goods to finished goods made in factories, and the shift of men outside the home are all reflected in this piece. This piece reminded me of another piece I read in another class about time and how the introduction of clocks and watches placed an added stress to productivity both in factories and in the home. Similarly, women were expected to budget their time, assigning a specific amount of time per task. Beecher recommends dividing the tasks, spreading them throughout the week, and using children as a means to be more productive. Do these self-help manuals place more stress on women to live up to an ideal? Do you think Beecher’s advice intimidates women? How often was this advice practiced or did it remain an ideal? Do we see any similarities between Beecher’s advice and modern day life? –Mary Beth Dillane | ||
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| + | In regards to Mary Beth's question, I do think self-help manuals put more stress on women. Beecher's writing makes it seem that if there are any problems in the home than it is the woman's fault. According to Beecher, all a woman has to do is follow her "habit of system and order" and all should be fine. However, this obviously will not work for everyone. The proliferation of these self help manuals just perpetuates the notion of the idealized family. - Fiona C. | ||
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| + | When reading "System and Order", I found it very intersting when they said that "the success of democratic institutions all depends upon the intellectual and moral character of the mass of the people...It is equally conceded that the formation of the moral and intellectual character of the young is committed mainly to the female hand...Let the woman of a country be made virtuous and intelligent, and the men will certainly be the same. The proper education of a man decides the welfare of an individual; but educate a women, and the interests of a whole family are secured..." This is quite the assumption here.--Katie D. | ||
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| + | '''Did these strict definitions of womens' duties and the expectations of an intensely ordered household reflect an effort to balance the deferential wife? How much of the intense strictures on order attempted to show the strength and power of women because they were so limited to this realm of the domestic? Or, were those expectations of the idealized perfect home following order simply intensified when the home became the woman's sphere?'''--A. Meyer | ||
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| + | When reading Catherine Beecher's system and order one quote really stood out to me, "It is impossible for a conscientious woman to secure that peaceful mind, and cheerful enjoyment of life, which all should seek, who is constantly finding her dutings jarring with each other, and much remaining undone, which she feels that she ought to do..." This really shocked me because it is a very woman who is saying that it is natural for women to want to do these kind of things, thats what they are best at, and thats whats best for the good of the country. Also, when she gives the weekly schedule and talks about how children should be given tasks and schedules so that daughters will know how to act when they are married, I found this again reiterated in The Rules for the School. Number 10 states "Nothing can be well done with out proper attention to regularity..." -- Emily Miller | ||
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| + | When reading the “Reports on Western Schools” letters from two teachers to Catharine Beecher, it is interesting to see the stark contrast of experiences. The first teacher seems to have zero amenities. She uses a “single board for a writing desk, a few bricks for andirons, and a stick of wood for shovel and tongs”. Some of her students are so poor they cannot afford shoes. She makes subtle hints that she is in need of money for purchasing suitable books, maps, slates, pencils, and paper, but we never read if she ever received any assistance. The other teacher had a new schoolhouse built for her which included writing desks and a black board. It is obvious that she is fairly well off in her new surroundings. Surprisingly, we find out that she has received some money from Mrs. Beecher which she used to purchase soap, candles, and a privacy screen. What would provoke Mrs. Beecher to give money to one of her pupils to spend personally while her other pupil is struggling to afford necessities to develop a decent school?- Lisa Wilkerson | ||
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| + | I also found it interesting, in "Reports on Western Schools", to see such a contrast in these teachers experiences. I too was wondering, along with Lisa,...if one teacher had very little ameneties, and the other was so well off...why did Mrs. Beecher give money to the teacher that was well off,to spend personally, when the other teacher was struggling to provide even a descent school?--Katie D. | ||
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| + | In regards to Katie's comment, I think Mrs. Beecher gave money to the well off teacher because of personal bias. Mrs. Beecher could have favored one teacher over another. What I also want to know about that document is why did all these women go out West on the frontier to teach, if the conditons out there were so bad? Did these women go out West for adventure and not realize what life on the frontier was like? ~K. Stinson~ | ||
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| + | '''Catharine M. Sedgwick's journal entry "First to None" seemed much more personal than journal entries we have used as sources for this class. For example, contrasting this to Martha Ballards "diary" seems impossible because they read like two different types of sources, though they both have the same name (journal or diary). Is Sedgwick's very personal writing a sign of her affinity towards writing and bottled up private dissatisfaction, or is this more personal style of journal writing a trend in the nineteenth century?'''-- Kelly Martin | ||
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| + | I agree with Kelly in the fact that Catherine Sedgwick journal is personal. She shows how deeply she feels towards her family. It seems to me that she has some regret in not getting married. Her brothers have replaced her as women of the house with their wives. She has lost her status as the house maiden. I get the feeling that she may even be jealous of the affections shown by her brothers to their wives. It must have been hard to go from being the adored sister to the old spinster.---Cheryl | ||
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| + | Going along with Kelly and Cheryl, this very personal journal really struck me. It's almost refreshing to read Sedgwick's experiences and feelings and emotions compared to some of the others we've read. She's almost allows for us to be able to relate to her more. Sometimes, for me at least, it's easy to read historical accounts and be completed disconnected from what I'm reading. But pieces like this one, as cheesy as it sounds, gives life to these people. Sedgwick's regret and maybe even jealousy, as Cheryl suggested, is something we can all relate to, even if indirectly. -- Vanessa Smiley | ||
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| + | In this journal entry I really felt that this woman regretted her life and all that she had accomplished seemed to mean nothing to her. I know from another class that Sedgwick was a very popular writer in her time. Instead of reveling in her success, she dwells on what she did not have in life. I am sure that if she were to marry she would have been disappointed because just by reading this I can tell she has very high standards. --Julie Castanien | ||
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| + | In her letter from Lowell Harriet Farley writes about the "Yankee spirit" of the women in the mills. She writes using the rhetoric of the revolution (like we discussed in class) using terms like independence and freedom. It seems that the community of women provided a safe and affirming place for women to further develop and voice their beliefs. --Kelly Martin | ||
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| + | Although Farley's letter was supposed to defend mill work, it seems to me that Farley was not that happy. She writes that "the girls here are not contented," her feet ache and swell, and that a woman's right hand becomes larger than her left. Maybe this life would still seem better to women who were used to working on farms? - Fiona Cobb | ||
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| + | When I read Farley's piece I thought of it as propaganda for the mill work. Since the journal it was published in was funded by mill owners themselves and this piece was a fictional correspondence. I felt like they had to include some of the negative aspects about mill life (such as their feet ache and swell) to make the piece seem more credible and realistic but the overall message was to defend the work. Any time they said something negative about the work, it was always countered with a positive that outweighed the bad point. --Alex K. | ||
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| + | While it was a step forward in the fact that some able women were able to leave the farms and work in mills and plants such as the one in Lancaster, I think it is important to remember that it was men who controlled these operations. The rules of the houses were quite rigid as to how quiet a woman must be upon entering the house, where a woman was to sit at the table, and how a woman was to behave at meal times, etc. --E. Hufford | ||
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| + | Reading the petition of the Cherokee women was upsetting. The women ask the chiefs and warriors of the council to reconsider parting the land which they once owned before the US government overtook it. The women do not understand what else they must do to be accepted into white culture. They express their advances from a "savage" nation to a "civilized" one. To hear them use those terms while speaking of themselves was hard to read. --E. Hufford | ||
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| + | '''Emma Willard's letter to her sister is really pretty amusing.''' It sounds like a really horrible thing to say to a sister about to get married, but on the other hand it doesn't sound that different than what a lot of newly divorced people would say today. -- Allison Johnson | ||
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| + | Emma Willard shows herself as a very caring older sister who wants to protect her younger sister from getting hurt. I like the way Emma tries to soften her blows to Mr. L’s character but at the same time makes it plain to her sister that a marriage to him would be a mistake.--- Cheryl | ||
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| + | I agree Allison. I thought the letter was pretty interesting, especially after reading that Emma herself married someone who gambled away her money later on in life. It seems that she needed to follow her own advice. As far as the letter goes, I suppose it was a good thing to go into a marriage with some form of skepticism since a woman’s reputation was such a key factor in determining her place in society.—Kaitlyn G. | ||
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| + | I too thought that Emma Willard's letter was amusing, considering that she ranted on about marriage and men, especially that she had not even met the guy yet. It sounded to me a lot like some women today's views on men and matrimony. I thought that, amusing though it was, it said a lot about the unhappiness of Emma's marriage and the changing ideas of family and marriage. In most of the letters we had read previously the center pieces in the writer's mind were her children and husband. Emma only briefly mentions her husband and child and the husband only in a complaining sort of way. --Mary P. | ||
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| + | My favorite part of the letter was that she wanted to meet the guy, I think she said something about having him come visit while her sister was there bu then she was concerned about the propriety of such an action. However, I do see this as an attempt to help her sister, it could be possible that she was just returning the favor I bet her younger sister passed judgment on the doctor before Emma married him. -- Julie Castanien | ||
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| + | It is so amazing that Amelia Knight crossed the Oregon Trail, and faced all the tribulations that this included, while pregnant! She cared for the children, walked long distances, and kept a fairly useful log of there trip with only a few mentions of being "sick." Also I really found her comments about the "romantic" hills covered with snow amusing. She can't help but put a little of her personality into this log while most of the diaries we have read have been fairly dry. -- Allison Johnson | ||
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| + | '''I thought Knight's log of her journey was quite fascinating as well, and I was totally surprised to find out that she was pregnant at the end! What a trooper. However, throughout the whole thing, I could not help but think that the next entry was going to say “Your oxen have died while fording the river” or “You have died of dysentery.” I suppose it’s fortunate for Amelia that my weird sense of humor didn’t play out and that she made it to Oregon after what was as her log describes as a tiresome, grueling journey. –'''Kaitlyn G. | ||
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| + | I loved Knight's diary! I thought it was a unique perspective on what we know and learn about the Oregon Trail. I know everyone played that game when they were little, and that obviously aided our understanding of the dangerous trip, so reading about what this woman actually went through was fascinating. I'm astonished that this woman, after being so "sick" throughout the entire trip and after caring for all of her other children, was able to survive and give birth to an eighth kid. Now that's girl power. -- Kelly Wuyscik | ||
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| + | Yes, I also found Knight’s travel journal the most interesting. I cannot imagine a long journey like the one Knight had to traverse without paved roads, without clean civilized rest stops and restaurants, and without motels and hospitals. Being faced with such extreme uncertainty must have been a daunting task itself. I cannot imagine the multitude of elements that Amelia Knight had to face, while dealing with her sickness and chores at the same time, and on top of that giving birth in such appalling conditions. We are certainly spoiled by today’s amenities. –John Furner | ||
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| + | In Catherine Beecher’s housekeeping manual she discusses the virtue of “system and order” and urges housewives to devote separate days of the week for specific household tasks such as Tuesdays for washing and Wednesday for ironing etc. I was first struck by the wide array of household tasks women were expected to perform and it is clear that maintaining the house was a full time job. While there were many comments on how these advice manuals would add more stress to women’s lives I think they would help women learn how to run their households more efficiently. Beecher emphasizes that women should delegate more tasks to their children and learn how to organize their household items. Women today still seek the same advice on how to stay organized and delegate chores to family members in order to carve out more alone time for themselves. For instance an article I just read in this month’s Self magazine gave 30 tips for how women can get more organized. | ||
| + | After reading Sarah Ayer’s journal entries describing having to uproot her life and move to Massachusetts to live with her husband’s relatives when she became a widow I was surprised that the wife of a physician would have to go through all of this. I assume that Sarah’s husband left no will and she was not put in charge of the estate because it seemed like her only choice was to move in with her husband’s relatives which she was not happy to do. –Caitlin Quinn | ||
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| + | I thought that Sarah Ayer's journal and life were really sad. She lost her first four children, then later her husband, then her home, was separated from her children (who gave her more grief, especially Samuel), moved in with her husbands relatives who she didnt want to live with and all at the age of 40. Then she and her youngest child would die of scarlet fever! '''Two things were interesting to me though, outside of everything else. Why did she keep moving from house to house? Did no one family want her for very long? Also what happened to the idea of sons being in some way responsible for their widowed mother? If he was old enough to leave home he was old enough to help her.''' Also what was Sarah doing, why was she away from home? --Mary P. | ||
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| + | Mary, I agree with you about how sad this journal was. You could see how far she fell when her husband died. She had to give her home and move back and forth. I think the reason she went from house to house was because she wanted to put off her journey away from her home of 11 years but she also didn't want to be a burden on her friends. I was also wondering about the will, you would think that a doctor would make the needed precautions to care for his wife and family. -- Julie Castanien | ||
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| + | Woloch mentions the new ideal of romantic love as the reason to marry made some more hesitant to marry. From my family class last semester we learned that many nineteenth-century women went through a “marriage trauma,” worrying about what would happen if a spouse did not live up to their hopes and high ideals. Because of this singlehood therefore rose, the insistence that marriage should be based on love implied that it's immoral to marry for other reasons and that marriage based on love/companionship spurred some to call for more liberal divorce laws. Maybe this was a bit later in the century though. --Alex K. | ||
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| + | If a person today were to ask the common middle class wife during the early 1800s about the 'equality of the sexes,' I wonder if her response would be like Beecher's, who wrote"THe discussion of the question of the equality of the sexes, in intellectual capacity, seems both frivolous and useless, not only because it can never be decided, but because there would be no possible advantage in the decision." (pg 148). I guess people were discussing this topic, albeit in an 'intellectual capacity,' but to what extent were people discussing it, and where? I assume they just entertained the idea as a sort of fiction, or dream-like possibility. Its interesting to see that she would write there would be no possible advantage in an equality, certainly it tells me that the conception of a society of equality really didn't make much sense to her. Also, in the intro to her section, there was slight discussion of the 'professionalisation' of being a housewife, a notion that is occasionally seen today. I've heard some people trying to estimate how much money a modern housewife would earn if she was paid, and its always some high amount. Harriet Farley made an interesting observation about life in the mill: "You ask if the girls are contented here: I ask you, ifyou now of any one who is perfectly contented." (pg 179). I guess thats all she knows, and for her, there might not be much point in imagining it to be any better. -Christopher Plummer | ||
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| + | Just a quick thought to the question of to what extent people where discussing "equality of the sexes" and where, I think that perhaps they did it in a similar fashion that we saw in the letters of Abigail Adams. As Christopher says, entertaining the idea as sort of fiction, toying with the idea but not necessarily having substance behind the discussion. But in the same matter, I'd also like to think that there were those revolutionaries who took it, or wanted to take it, that one step further into a serious discussion. -- Vanessa Smiley | ||
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| + | The excerpt from Caroline Gilman's novel was one of the few accounts I've read which is specifically about adjusting to married life. I particularly enjoyed her advice for dealing with men: "How clear it is, then, that woman loses by petulance and recrimination! Her first study must be self-control, almost to hypocrisy." What struck me as interesting is that many women today would give similar advice to young brides. Today, however, it is typically made clear that selective feminine submission can be used as a source of power. For example, think about how often, both in real life and in film and television, references are made to the necessity of humoring men to let them think they are in control.-- Ashley H. | ||
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| + | I thought that document entitled "A Choctaw Mission School" was very interesting. The teachers seemed very kind and caring towards the Indian students and did not try to force the students to forget their native ways. I also noticed that Indian students quickly picked up the ways of Christianity and became concerned about their family members who were not Christian. What I want to know is how these girls fit back in with their families after they finished at this school. They had experienced something their family members had not and I wonder if these girls felt that they were now somehow better than their family because they had been to a "white school". ~K. Stinson~ | ||
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| + | The woman I felt bad for was Mary Ballou. Reading her account of life out in the Gold Rush territory sounded awful. She was far away from her loved ones and laboring in a boarding house. It just did not seem like the life that anyone traveling out west to get rich would be expecting and I couldn't help but feel sorry for the poor woman. I was also intrigued as to how often she referenced her faith and how "no one but her maker knows her feelings." It must have been absolutely terrible. --Kelly Wuyscik | ||
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| + | Maybe I was just seeing it tonight, but so many of these women seemed so miserable and trapped in their situations. I've always known women's lives were difficult and unhappy, but that was the big theme I'm taking away from all of this. Emma Willard seemed very unhappy with the marriage situation, Catharine Sedgwick seemed lost and miserable as a single woman, Sarah Ayer's suffering was evident in the list of deaths alone but she describes crying as she writes, the girls in the Choctaw school--especially Hannah Bradshaw and her sister Frutilla Townsley seemed miserable and sad. The author writing in the Lowell Offering carefully dodges her friend's question about contentedness, claiming no one is content because she cannot write she is content, and admits that the work "tried her patience" until she became numb to it. I'm not expecting a rose garden, but this was the theme I was seeing.--A. Meyer | ||
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| + | I also noticed that in the readings this week many of the women were feeling miserable, trapped or useless (useless such as the Cherokee Women resisting removal and failing in their attempts). I was wondering if maybe they are feeling more miserable because they are seeing the changes going on around them but the changes aren't always necessarily working to their advantage?- Elizabeth Frank | ||
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| + | I found the Sioux Tale "A Woman who Kills her Daughter" very interesting. However, I'm curious has to how it fits with the rest of these stories. I understand that the evil mother gets what she deserves for her feels for her son in law and killing her daughter over it, but it seems sort of out of place among the rest of the entries.- Elizabeth Frank | ||
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| + | Not necessarily in response, I think "A Woman Kills Her Daughter" provides a general exaggerated moral lesson. While being unrealistic, the story imparts a warning against lust and betrayal of family bonds. As we have read throughout the semester, it is interesting to see the similarities between Native American society and that of the colonies. '''It seems that while the methods of spreading information were rather different, the moral teachings can be closely related.''' --Robert Kopp | ||
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| + | I found the diary of Sarah Ayer unique and extremely revealing of the reality of a widow in this era. The diary did show the dependence of a wife on her husband, yet it showed more of a companionship destructed by death. Sarah never had it easy. Her first four children died, and then she was left alone without her “partner.” The diary really did show the notion of honest love and friendship. Ayer never wrote of the little rights she was given as a widow, she was upset that her children would never see their father again. The excerpt where she discussed her last walk through of the house was heart breaking. I am sure it is devastating in this era, but in my opinion, Sarah was completely alone. She says she is alone in her diary. She turns to religion. This could be a factor in the importance of religion in education. Women are expected to study and turn to religion in schools. Maybe this because in the end, when a husband dies, the only partnership left is between the widow and G-d. There is an air of burden that comes with the widow, and it can be seen in Sarah’s journal. Every day she goes and visits a new person. Not only a burden the host, it must be depressing to be a nomadic widow, because there is no one else to go home to. – T Halpern. | ||
