Difference between revisions of "426--Week 10 Questions/Comments--Tuesday"
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== Marriage == | == Marriage == | ||
After reading the two chapters on marriage, mostly in New Mexico, by Ramon Gutierrez I noticed some parallels that still exist in today's American families. Often, children still rely on their parents to agree on a proposed marriage (this is starting to die and in some cases is completely ignored), also people still tend to marry within their race (also dieing down as more people marry whoever they wish regardless of race, ethnicity, etc...), people still tend to marry within their own class, and churches still have a lot of say so, but not absolute anymore. With the church bit, many of them still go through rigourous 'are you right for each other' process and 'should we marry you' process. However, people can now get 'married' in the courthouse where they sign a paper stating they aren't related but by so much (hey, first cousins can marry in VA... so it depends on the state)and/org submit a blood test to show if there are any diseases. I just thought it interesting how some of the traditions still persist today. --Ashley Wilkins | After reading the two chapters on marriage, mostly in New Mexico, by Ramon Gutierrez I noticed some parallels that still exist in today's American families. Often, children still rely on their parents to agree on a proposed marriage (this is starting to die and in some cases is completely ignored), also people still tend to marry within their race (also dieing down as more people marry whoever they wish regardless of race, ethnicity, etc...), people still tend to marry within their own class, and churches still have a lot of say so, but not absolute anymore. With the church bit, many of them still go through rigourous 'are you right for each other' process and 'should we marry you' process. However, people can now get 'married' in the courthouse where they sign a paper stating they aren't related but by so much (hey, first cousins can marry in VA... so it depends on the state)and/org submit a blood test to show if there are any diseases. I just thought it interesting how some of the traditions still persist today. --Ashley Wilkins | ||
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| + | This reading really reminds me of stuff that I read for Spanish history last semester. All the stuff in this article (protecting women's honor, seducing women with false promises of marriage, higher class men sexually exploiting lower class women, themes of the danger of love, etc) was all in the Spanish literature. I think it is interesting to see these elements of Spanish culture transplanted in America. -- Rebecca | ||
I thought the juxtaposition of Hispanic families against the Anglo Family ideal, from Sarah Deutsch's ''No Separate Refuge'' was very interesting. Women were at the center of marriage and the village. Particularly interesting were inheritance rights were women had even over their children. This struck me as particularly unusual as compared to rules of primogeniture followed by most Anglos. -Lacey | I thought the juxtaposition of Hispanic families against the Anglo Family ideal, from Sarah Deutsch's ''No Separate Refuge'' was very interesting. Women were at the center of marriage and the village. Particularly interesting were inheritance rights were women had even over their children. This struck me as particularly unusual as compared to rules of primogeniture followed by most Anglos. -Lacey | ||
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| + | I thought Gutierrez's article was very interesting. Marriage in colonial New Mexico was very different than it is today. I had no idea about all of the formalities, ceremonies and traditions that existed in this part of America while the colonies were fighting for their independence. It's interesting that patrimony was part of the marriage procedure in addition to dowries. The chapters show the importance of childbirth and virginity to a woman's promise for her future and as an asset to her family. Women's roles were very restricted however. I had no idea that a daughter was passed off from a father to her husband (like ownership over an animal). I also found a contradiction between the control of the Catholic church and the discussion of young men scaling walls to sneak into a woman's room. Though the Catholic church ran the community and had to approve marriages, it seems that even this society had its share of scarlet letters.--Amanda | ||
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| + | I thought that the two chapters from Gutierrez's book were very interesting. One of concepts which struck me was how much importance was placed upon the consent of those getting married. I know that in reality it was not also carried out or properly enforced as there was also the consideration of obeying ones parents, but it still surprised me that it was given as much attention as it was. Like Ashely, I also noted several parallels and similarities to today's marriage beliefs and practices. For instance, we still exchange rings, still have witnesses at our weddings to make them valid, make comments about carrying a bride over the threshold, and still have large receptions after weddings. I also know that the Catholic Church still requires engaged couples to provide proof that they are marrying of their own free will and not because of outside pressures. --Sarah Gardner | ||
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| + | Kind of bouncing off Ashley's comment about similarities, I thought the amount of pressure put on young brides about who they marry can still be seen today in some form or another. When I read that threats and sheer force were used to "persuade" someone of a better choice, I couldn't help but think of the nerves in a young girl (or boy for that matter) bringing home their significant other to meet the parents for the first time praying for their acceptance. -Kelly W. | ||
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| + | These two chapters were very interesting, but I felt that some of the stories were unnecessary. It seems like the chapters would have been ten pages shorter if some of the stories were taken out. But some of them offered some good examples about what Gutierrez was trying to say. These chapters looked into marriage, but more importantly they offered a peak into society in Spanish New Mexico. Some points in particular were, I thought, very fascinating. The first one was on the parties and fiestas that were a breeeding ground for sinful lust. It kind of reminded me of the Mardi Gras or Carnival. These were public events where people were expected to break away from social norms. In fact, the system set this time apart for people to break norms... but not to go too far. The other interesting point in this chapter was on how priests actually went against parental wishes sometimes in order to marry a couple if the couple wished it. It reminded me of a couple I know who were trying to get married but the bride's parents were not happy about her marrying the guy. After a number of attempts to set up the date and the parents constantly saying they couldn't make it on the days, the priest finally threw his arms up in the air and said 'forget it, it's your marriage, not their's, we're setting up a date and the parents don't have to make it if they don't want to.' Well, the parents didn't want to make it and the couple eloped.- Celia | ||
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| + | Responding to Celia's comment: I was also intrigued by the fact that the clergy often supported young couples in love. It reminds me of the priest in Romeo and Juliet. -- Rebecca | ||
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| + | I found the section on rituals and holidays as opportunities for sexual impropriety particularly interesting. The atmosphere of celebration, the consumption of alcohol, and the fact that people were distracted created the perfect environment for young people to be sexually inappropriate. Later on Gutierrez discusses the role of the Church in prohibiting and preaching against such social gatherings, particularly dances. I cannot help but think of other conservative Christian groups that even today still ban dancing, drinking, card playing, etc. for the same argument that they breed and provide the perfect environment for sin to flourish. – Mary Beth | ||
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| + | I also thought the part about the festivals and holidays was interesting. I wonder if you could trace this kind of thing back to Spanish culture or Native American culture? (or maybe every culture has this kind of thing to some extent?)-- Rebecca | ||
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| + | You absolutely can, Rebecca. Holidays are a HUGE part of the Latino/Hispanic culture, and I think it all ties into the emphasis on family. I always kind of have to chuckle to myself when Coppola uses the huge wedding scene in The Godfather. Growing up with a father who is half-Mexican means that family get-togethers on the Nelson side were always heavy on family, heavy on CUSTOMARY food, and heavy on the traditions. Who needed weddings? We had Sunday dinner. -Cash | ||
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| + | One point I found particularly interesting was the distinction between valid and legitimate matrimony. Prior to the Council of Trent, valid indicated a monogamous, faithful relationship between two people for the rest of their lives, while legitimate was reserved as a description of marriages only ordained by the priest. We see the need for the Church to clarify such a distinction and with the Council of Trent elevate marriage to the status of a sacrament and require consent, witnesses, and a priest for the marriage to be official. I wonder if in other ethnic groups this type of distinction existed? What was the effect of the Council of Trent on marriages in other ethnic groups? – Mary Beth | ||
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| + | I, like Mary Beth, found the distinction between valid and legitimate matrimony as very intresting. The section about the Council of Trent was informative in how it articulated the views of legitimacy as epr teh Council. I too was intrested in the role the Council played outside of the studied ethinic group and would guess that it would be somewhat similar. | ||
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| + | It appeared to me in the readings that the theme in Chapter 7 was that marriage arrangements were an internal family struggle between the parents who treated the marriage as a business transaction-helped further the family and the potential wife or husband who was looking for personal desires. Does this marriage arrangement appear in some of our previous readings? I believe so. AND does an irony exist between the Catholic religion and the arrangement of marriages? --Joe C. | ||
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| + | == Deutsch == | ||
| + | These chapters were very different from the other reading. Deutsch provided the context and background for Southwest and how the culture was harder to capture than just the land. From this reading I got that women had more rights than what Gutierrez explained. I also liked this article because it showed the class differences and extended to a the late 1800s.--Amanda | ||
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| + | I agree with Amanda, it did seem like women had more rights. I especially liked how daughters were able to inherit land just like sons, also that they were allowed to continue to hold any property they had upon entering into any marriage. This definitely has an impact of family relations because the mother/wife has more power and therefore more impossibilities. -- Kellye Sorber | ||
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| + | I liked the use of the stories in this text and I liked how they were used to support her main idea throughout. I also liked that she included the way new jobs opened up (as well as a new form of economy) for the Anglo-Hispanic community as a result of contact with westward travelers and Anglicans. -Kelly W. | ||
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| + | Deutsch touched on something in her first chapter that was in the other readings. In Guttierez's work, he says that the upperclasses married more than the lower or landless classes. The landless really had no need to since marriage was so often a business contract. Deutsch talks about how the elite classes had more intermarriages than the lower classes. Again, this was for business more than anything, but the numbers were declining as many Hispanics refused to intermarry. It seems that preserving one's culture and way of life was more important than making it in the Anglocized world. - Celia | ||
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| + | Reading all of this, and being a member of a Mexican-American family myself, it's nice to see where my roots were all those years ago. I can definitely say that the importance of the woman in the household is still very much the case. While they may technically be patriarchal households, you can bet your bottom dollar that the woman slaving away in the kitchen making floutas, empanandas and tortillas has a pretty vital say in what happens in the household. I find it funny that growing up, disobeying mom and dad was one thing, but if I were to cross Grandma Sara, I better have either a deathwish or a pretty solid reason for doing so. You don't cross a woman who cooks with habanero. -Cash | ||
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| + | == Women == | ||
| + | I actually enjoyed reading chapter 2 of Sarah Deutsch's ''No Separate Refuge''. Mainly because I admit that I very much believed a lot of the stereotypes, I had no idea that what women did was valued so much and that they had as much do in the community as they did. Although, if I'd thought more about what I learned before with Angelo's moving out West, most of this I would have figured out. What really stuck out at me was the part that they did a lot of plastering for the community, which I would have put at more of men's work or women's work. --Ashley Wilkins | ||
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| + | I also enjoyed reading about the powerful and influential role women held in Hispanic villages. It makes sense that women were the core of their society and it is nice to see that it was recognized more at the time. Many decisions also appear to have been made jointly between spouses pertaining to children especially. In terms of marriage, I was interested to learn that "age determined one's actions more than sex." (44)Men were not given preferential treatment but both the potential bride and groom had to rely on their relatives to establish the marriage contract. --Sarah Gardner | ||
