View source for 426--Week 8 Questions/Comments--Tuesday

== Overarching Ideas ==

So far I do like this read, but I do have one problem with it.  I know its just the style or whatever, but the Preface and Intro had a lot of the author and her ideas and whatnot, I loved the story that led to the creation of this work.... and the rest of the chapters are mostly 'here read the source yourself and have very little comment and input from me' and on top of it at first it was hard to distinguish who was the author and what wasn't because the preface and intro had the author's speech in regular print whereas in the chapter the author's speech in italicized... its rather confusing and annoying. --Ashley Wilkins


I wasn't really sure where to put this because it was mentioned in a few of the chapters, the whole eating thing.  I have my own theory on some of their theories, like the guy who said that sexual desires decreased/desisted when a person eats only bread and water.  Well, duh.  The body is having a hard time subsisting on the mediocre food its getting and, at least with other critters and animals, if the body isn't getting enough nutrients they don't have the desire to mate and reproduce.  Well, in the long run we'd have those same instincts, so if our bodies don't have enough nutrients, it would be then possible for our desire to go down because we don't have the nutrients.  That, or because we're still hungry and we may think of survival before pleasure >^.^<  Just a thought and a rant.  --Ashley Wilkins

My opinion of this half of the book is that it's interesting but complete ludicrous.  It tells us something (I'm not sure what) that people believed this stuff, wrote about it, read it, and perhaps took some of it to heart.  But there was no scientific proof or logical reason for most of the advice given, and I have a hard time understanding the rationale of the time period.--Amanda

My feelings on this book have been interesting. I have to say this has been the most entertaining book. I have been sharing a couple passages with people and I even laugh out loud at some points. I agree with Amanda that some of this seems ludicrous to us now, but people really believed it then, just like we really believe that eating blueberries will prevent cancer. - Celia  

In response to Amanda and Celia's comments, I actually CAN see logic behind a lot of the practices and I think that the doctors really believed that they had sound scientific proof. Obviously, from today's perspective this stuff sounds so silly, but when I try to put myself in the shoes of a nineteenth century person, I can understand why a lot of people took all this advice in as scientific facts. If I forget for a moment everything I know about human sexuality, the doctors in this book sound just as credible as the current doctors who publish books about new diets and health plans. (just like Celia's blueberry comment)  -Rebecca

I think this is the most entertaining book we have read all semester.  Agreeing with Celia and Amanda, the majority of the “advice” given seems ludicrous by today’s standards.  It reminds me of a similar book or article I read a while back about outdated medical treatments.  –Andrew B

I am surprised that this book doesn't talk about male circumcision at all. Maybe this is another sign of being written in the 70s (and by a guy). In an anthropology class we read tons of quotes by people like Graham and Kellogg promoting circumcision as a means to desensitize and incapacitate the penis, to decrease the sex drive and prevent masturbation. They even advised that doctors refrain from using any anesthesia because it was good for young boys to associate intense pain with their penises. My understanding is that the 19th century is when circumcision really became common practice in the US, so I wonder why Walters doesn't bring it up. (and please call me out if he DOES mention is somewhere and I just missed it.) -- Rebecca

== Introduction ==
I am very glad for the preparation the introduction of this text provides.  I felt as if I was stepping into a world that was completely alien to what we see today, that is not to say that I don't see the relation to the modern sense of American modesty and taboo.  But they go to such great lengths to have a conversation about they are so hesitant about that they talk in circles around the simplest of concepts.  I feel very much akin to Frederick Marryat's take on American prudery. -Lacey

== Chapter 1 ==
I feel like, definitely in the beginning of, chapter one really elaborated on the importance of a proper upbringing by the mother.  Children were to be taught from the get-go about chastity and saved before they even had the chance to understand the idea of sex so that they never had to worry about harm or improper behavior.  The emphasis of all of this education falling on the mother delves back into the idea of the Republican Motherhood and the mother being the one in charge of the children - a topic we've been discussing for the past couple of weeks. -Kelly W.

Going off Kelly's idea of the importance of Republican Motherhood-if its the mothers' job to teach their children about chastity wouldn't children start asking questions about sex? The mothers' probably wouldn't be able to answer because it would be improper and also they wouldn't know the answers in the first place because the mothers' parents did not teach her generation,the blind leading the blind. (like the couple who didn't know how to have sex after their marriage).--Joyce

== Chapter 2 ==
One of the things I found particularly interesting about Ch. 2 was the incorporation of science, specifically medicine, into the understanding of the damaging effects of “sexual excess.” I don’t think any of us were surprised by the relationship between inappropriate sexual acts and sin, but I found the incorporation of science to be very interesting. By listing physical ailments and symptoms as well as using empirical evidence (even if it is cited as weak by Walters) plus the role of physicians, advice manual writers were able to bring a justification to their concerns about sexual excess. I think by giving examples of physical ailments associated with this type of sexual deviance they were not only further pointing out the damages to the person, but even giving physical proof of the sin within these people. Even phrenologists used physical anatomy to attempt to better understand sexual excess, pointing to a larger desire for physical, scientific evidence of sexual deviance. –Mary Beth 

This is kind of a small point but I found it interesting reading about the Oneidas.  They were the complete opposite of what these manuals were teaching and yet they still gained some what of a following.  It was interesting to read that not everyone believed the extreme ideas about chastity during the time period. Not that I am endorsing the Oneidas at all (I think they are just crazy), but it was somewhat refreshing to read something other than "sex is bad".  -- Kari W.

Elaborating on Mary Beth’s comments, it seems to me that this was the beginning of our modern approach to sex.  Today’s parents, teachers, and church leaders often discourage the acts under pretenses of science as well as sin.  As noted, this was a somewhat new idea.  –Andrew B

Andrew, I'm not entirely sure that's true. In some cases, absolutely, but I have had many discussions with my brother, a US Public Health official, about whether or not schools should teach safe sex over abstinence. It's certainly a mindset that is being leaned towards by more and more schools, and I think even a lot of religious groups are beginning to realize that trying to bring science alongside religion is often a poor idea. Maybe it's just the church I went to, but we are able to talk pretty frankly in college-age youth group back home about this kind of stuff. Thankfully, we're not festering in the 19th century anymore with morality. -Cash
 
I thought one of the most interesting ideas from this chapter came from Dr. Gardner's and Samuel R. Wells which described that both men and women that remain celibate are in violation of nature's laws and that every function of the body and faculty of the mind must be exercised.  I think that after reading this section of the chapter there is somewhat of a swing towards believing sexual activity to be more of a normal human function. -Joe C.

== Chapter 3 ==

This chapter was the first mention of family.  The book discussed the incorporation of nurses and the replacement of mothers.  Apparently the advice of the time was to not use them if possible, but if necessary, to watch them very closely.  Then Walters goes on to explain how Dr. Kellogg thought sexual corruption was a hereditary trait through "libidinous blood" (p. 52).  I found the parts about how masturbation was a main cause of insanity interesting.  And, I had no idea about corsets being used to prevent blood from "overloading sexual organs" (58).  In terms of the advice about what to eat and not to eat, I was wondering what the heck people could eat.  It seems as though safe diets must have consisted of primarily milk.  -Amanda

Chapter 3, entitled "The Path Downward" shows many factors in the corruption of society from certain points of view. It doesn't take the reader long to realize that many of these advise columns, or lectures or treatises were written by men and women from a certain social class with certain idealized ideas about what American sexuality should be. In what ways does Walters demonstrate the middle-class idea that certain classes contributed to the downfall of the nation's youth? - Celia

I thought it was very interesting that nurses were blamed for the sexual behavior of their charges. While the advice manuals in no way vindicated parents from being responsible for their children, it seems clear that it was the influence of nurses and maids of the poorer classes who were to blame for initially polluting upper and middle class children. --Sarah Gardner

To add on to Sarah, I think that was also one of the main points of this chapter that men and women addicted to vice owe their misfortune to the instructions from their domestics.  Although it does not flat out blame parents in this chapter, I feel that most advice manuals circumvented the more on placing the blame on nurses. Perhaps this was also an additional argument to how scientists and doctors blamed young women capable of "leading one astray." -Joe C.

== Chapter 4 ==

Just wanted to point out that Walters talks about women& hysterics on page 72.  The hysterical woman has been recurrent throughout the periods and topics we've covered so far. --Amanda

In his introduction Walters points out that there is underrepresentation of women in sex advice columns in the nineteenth century, which is apparently true by the numbers of sources in this book by men and the number of sources by women. Walters states that women were considered less sexual than men, so there was very little informtion on women's sexuality to write on. However, in chapter four the reader learns about the role of women regarding sexuality- at least mostly from men's point of view. How did some of these male writers view women and their sensuality? - Celia

Women were viewed in a variety of ways by male writers. For example, Beecher wrote, indirectly, about male fears of female seduction. Sanger wrote about women as prostitutes, a topic which seemed to fascinate many of the male writers. I suppose this was largely due to the fact that prostitution was an anomaly to men who viewed women as virtuous creatures with little to no sexual drive. I also have to wonder as to the accuracy of Sanger's survey of prostitutes. How many of them would have been inclined to tell the truth or to speak with him and his investigators at all? --Sarah Gardner

I'm not saying this was the case in this particular situation, Sarah, but if they felt it would help their general well-being, the average prostitute may be more willing to talk. You've gotta figure, these are women who are making their livelihood in the late hours on the seedier areas of town. Their job isn't safe, and they don't have a reputation that will get them more respectable work. They have to go with what they have. Who knows, maybe they just wanted to be taken a little bit more seriously. -Cash

== Chapter 5 ==
It's apparent that marriage was indeed an important element to society during this time period.  I just wanted to point out one little sentence that seriously had me a bit perplexed (and laughing?) - "If all men and women were married and their marriages were perfect, wars would cease; disease would disappear; supreme order would prevail; love universal would reign; heaven would descend to earth."(81)  I find this viewpoint, and Holcombe's continuing idea that sex and marriage are both as spiritual as love meaning they are eternal, to be a bit extreme.  The fact that he hoped for sex after death is a new idea to me. -Kelly W.

== Chapter 6 ==

I thought that Evrie's discussion of slaves really illustrated how subhuman some individuals believed black slaves to be. His descriptions make them appear no better then animals and his accusations are untrue. For example, as we discussed in class, slaves did attempt to have stable families and were negatively impacted and hurt by separation from those they loved. However, it is by labeling them as incapable of sustaining the same relations as whites that makes slavery permissible to him and other pro-slavery authors. The capability to understand and participate in marriage and family then, were symbols of civilization and superiority and, at least to some, distinguished black from white in Victorian America. --Sarah Gardner

I found this chapter really interesting because it gave two different viewpoints.  There was Evrie's argument that Sarah talked about, which seems to be the common attitude towards slaves, but there was also Tower's abolitionist argument.  I enjoyed reading the different perspectives, especially Tower's.  It was nice to read about someone actually sticking up for the the black population and calling out white plantation owners.  --Kari W. 

== Chapter 7 ==