View source for Week 11 Questions/Comments-327 11

== Mary Anne Sadlier's Bessy Conway ==

'''Who was Sadlier?  Why did she write this?  What biases should we be watching out for?'''

For Irish families, such as the Conway's, having a family member make the voyage to America was incredibly difficult. '''The likelihood of that family member returning to Ireland was very low.'''''' Mary Ann Sadlier describes this sentiment vividly by saying her family "felt at the moment as if they had left Bessy in the churchyard clay," likening Bessy's voyage to America to being like her death. This separation was not easy for Bessy or other Irish women for that matter. Perhaps this is why when Bessy arrived in New York, her "comrade-girls" assured her they were happy to see her and kind to her. These women want to try and form bonds with each other since they are all in similar situations.''' -- Clare O.

I found the way Sadlier wrote out Irish accents was really interesting. At first I thought maybe she was caricaturing the immigrants by exaggerating their accents, but then I found out that she was Irish herself. I also thought the interactions she wrote between the Irish men discussing whether or not selling alcohol was okay seemed really honest. I would have assumed initially that this was written by a white woman trying to scold Irish girls on the dangers of alcohol and men and probably not holding a very high opinion of her readers; '''After realizing the author had gone through experiences like this herself, I trusted the story she was telling a bit more.''' -- Katie C.

I was kind of amused by the accents, as well, and particularly the use of Irish language phrases, which she spells phonetically. Granted, Irish (Gaelic) is not easy for English speakers to read, so this makes sense, but she doesn't translate them, either, which seems like it would be useless to most readers. I'm learning Irish, and the phrases are basic enough that I mostly knew what they meant, but I wonder how common that knowledge is, or whether the inclusion of foreign words is just meant to give a particular flavor to the dialogue. 
On another subject, '''the beginning of the reading makes it very clear how unprepared immigrants could be for the realities of life in America.''' The woman who plans to find her son is a perfect example of this, as she is unaware how far apart New York and Ohio are. It makes me think that culture shock must have been particularly bad for people who were arriving with so little idea of life in the US. --Rebecca W.

What I found really interesting was how excited to everyone was to be leaving for America. It was one big adventure and everyone's lives were going to be improved, or so they thought. But while i really felt that sense of adventure waiting for them I also kept thinking in my head of everything we have learned of in the past week, of the real conditions of these ships, the number of people that died and the harsh reality of being in a new country and not really being excepted. It made me think, were people really that excited to leave and go to America? And then, How could they not be? It was the land of opportunity. --Jennifer S.

== Jannicke Saehle, 1847, Norwegian immigrant’s letters ==

I think one of the remarkable things about Saehle's letter to her brother is that she has a strong faith. She even remarks that she wasn't even scared on her journey to America and slept peacefully. Her high spirit and faith are really what keeps her going.''' I wonder how many other women had as positive experience as her in their travels to America? Was she an exception?''' --Catherine K.

I agree, she was incredibly optimistic. I almost think that this is an unrealistic representation of the experience of an young, single woman immigrant. I would be very surprised if every single immigrant felt that much ease when crossing the Atlantic, and I doubt that they would all be so optimistic about the work that they were doing.  I was also surprised with the Post Script, where she receives 3 acres of land. Was it common to give somebody doing domestic work land? --Mary Beth M.

This entry made me laugh, I have been to Norway and it was my experience that Norwegians are the happiest, most optimistic people on earth. From this entry it seems to be that they were pretty happy and optimistic back then as well. Of course, it could have just been the personality of Jannicke, but I will still amused by her optimism.--Emma C.

From the letter, it appears that Saehle is indeed a very brave and optimistic woman, who seems ready to take on the challenges of  the new world without too much anxiety. But part of me has to wonder if she was possibly exaggerating her feelings when she wrote to her brother, possibly in an attempt to make her family back home feel more at ease with her going abroad.  The idea of traveling across the Atlantic and staring a new life in a new world, as a single woman in those days, must have been a daunting and nerve racking task, and it just seems incredible to me that she was able to remain in such high spirits throughout her whole experience. --Grace C.
 
In reading this account, it struck me as to how happy and optimistic Saehle was. I have read many accounts of immigrants coming to the new land, and this was definitely an exception for me. This was the first time I have ever heard of someone being so positive about everything and not complaining about how horrible the trip was or sick they were throughout it. Maybe she truly was the exception and had a good experience or maybe she didn't want her brother to worry at all about her so she made everything sound more wonderful than it really was. If I were her, I probably would want my brother to know that everything was going great (even if it wasn't) just so he wouldn't worry about me. --Lindsey S.

== Bills of Sale of Chinese Prostitutes, 1875-76 ==
What I found interesting about these bills of sale is how they reflect the situations these women were going through when they had to to be sold. While today a sum of $470, like in Mee Yung's case (page 237) is laughable for four years of service today, we cannot know why or what the money paid for. Most likely this money went to paying for her passage over or to her destitute parents who desperately needed the money or thought her too much the burden to raise. '''I do wonder where this money went and whether these women survived and moved beyond prostitution.''' -Heather T.

I have to say that I knew of Chinese men coming over to work on railroads but I don't know how I missed Chinese women coming over primarily as prostitutes for these men (and white men).  I am definitely interested in knowing what these women's lives were like, after their contracts were up.  --Remy B.

Why are the owners/masters all women? Chinese women at that, unlike slavery, are the master and the servant are of the same race and background. First off, if majority of the Chinese that immigrated were men, where do these women come from, and how do they have power? --Aqsa Z.

I was incredibly surprised by the contracts of the Chinese prostitutes. The terms were familiar: she was sick for a certain amount of days, she had to make it up by serving an extra month; if she got pregnant, she had to serve an extra year. If I am remembering correctly female indentured servants had similar terms of agreement, but their lives must have been better than serving their years as a prostitute. Also, was this a common thing for Chinese women to do? Why were they doing this? Are they serving as prostitutes to send money back to their families?-- Emma C.

== Xin Jin's Contract, San Francisco, 1886==

'''When reading the Bills of Sale of Chinese Prostitutes, I was surprised by how standard they are. All work for about four years, are paid no wages, and there is no interest on the money.''' Furthermore, extended periods of sickness add a month to the service. What I thought was most surprising was that the Chinese prostitutes all are contracted with other Chinese people. I had assumed they would be contracted to American people. I wonder why some Chinese did well enough to contract prostitutes while others did poor enough to have to work as prostitutes. --Clare O.

'''I actually had a problem with the introduction to this article. It talks about women existing as prostitutes but does not acknowledge why these women were there as prostitutes. This was NOT like the prostitution of white society.''' First, there were laws prohibiting all asians, but particularly women (who to the whites were of NO use but sexuality). Secondly, It was forbidden for these asian men to fraternize with women who were not asian.  Their numbers were not as high as that of blacks in the south so disobeying this law was not common and was severely punishable.  The existence of prostitution had nothing to do with one being well-off enough to contract a woman to be a prositute, but had more do to with the fact that these women had to be brought in illegally due to American immigration laws and cost a lot of time and money to do so. It is not mentioned in the introduction to this paragraph and is put immediately after a document about white prostitutes and i feel this is in bad taste. The hardships of Asians in America even until the end of the 1900's are not that easily comparable to the hardships of those who could "pass" as english. --Sara S

In reading the XIn Jin article what stood out is the fact that 28% of Chinese women were involved in prostitution during this period.  Even though this is a significant number it goes against the stereotype of early Chinese immigrants where its assumed that the minimal number of women who did live in the US where all there as prostitutes. It is my guess that the lives these woman were forced to live is what stands out when viewing chinese females in this region.  However, '''I found the experience to Xin Jin to be very similar to the women described in the New York Prostitutes reading where once again men are controlling the sexual lives of these women.'''  Forced into a life where sexual favors are their only means of survival helps to solidify to men and non immigrant women that these immigrant females were inferior in every way.  Is that negative stereotype still carried on to todays view of early Chinese immigration, where admittedly I even viewed the majority of these women, to be just prostitutes? -- Rachel T.

'''Did these women choose to come to America, or were they forced?''' Was life in China really that bad? I don't understand why they would put themselves through this when they don't get any benefits from it. --Ashley V.

In response to Ashley's question on whether women were forced to come to America, I think that some may have been willing to go because I think they were lied to about what they could expect when they got there.  But I do believe that the majority were forced to go against their will because they were already part of a forced labor system in China, and were now simply being sent to do forced work in a different country.--Grace  

How sad that she was treated like an item or something you trade.  I was also wondering about what four loathsome disease's she could get?  Also four and a half years for $524, I guess back then it was a lot of money and the restrictions she had on that loan must have been awful.  It also sound like to me that they didn't treat the Chinese women very well and they had no other job skills so they could make their life better.  I wonder, like Ashley, did these women come forced or because they wanted to?-- Pam P.

== Susan Shelby Magoffin in Santa Fe, 1846 ==
It strikes me as very strange that Magoffin refers to the noise of soldiers being "shocking to [her] delicate nerves." (234) She's described in the introduction to the Documents section as being a woman who traveled with her merchant husband out West; based on everything we know about the travel West, it was a dangerous, unforgiving trip--and one in which a person with "delicate nerves" would either toughen up or fall apart. '''Clearly, Magoffin did not fall apart on the trip to NM, which begs the question: why didn't she toughen up? Or was she in some way trying to regain the delicate sensibilities that women of the era were supposed to have?''' -- Nicole

When I read this I compared the treatment of the Mexicans to that of the Blacks in the south during slavery. "...make them do it over, and over, and they continue in the same good humour, never mouthing and grumbling because they have too much to do, but remain perfectly submissive..." (234)'''It made me wonder why the Mexicans were more obedient and complying?'''  --Aqsa Z.

I really enjoyed Susan Shelby Magoffin's accounts of her life in Santa Fe. She seemed to be such a cheerful person especially compared to Mrs. A.M. Green in Colorado. To read her accounts of the Spanish Ball made me wish that I could have been there to see it all. I was confused a little by her description of "Dona Tula." Who is this person and what exactly is her occupation? --Jennifer S.

== Citizen protest of rape of Indian women in California, 1862 ==
What I found interesting about this primary document is how the notion of men being in constant search of sex is evolving. Instead of marking the Lieutenants acts of rape as manly and normal, citizens are instead standing up for these "squaws" and are arguing that he should be punished. Although this document still evidences to the prejudice against natives, there is a change in ideals of how men should treat all women and it makes me wonder if this change was drawn out or abrupt and what sparked the need for men's ideals to change.-- Heather T.

'''I wonder what this says about the status of Native Americans in California at this time. Where did Native American women fit on the spectrum of "white women are pure and asexual, black women want sex all the time?" I guess they must have been closer to white women, in that it wasn't considered okay for the Lieutenant to rape her.''' -- Katie C.

Katie, I was thinking the same thing. Perhaps because in California there weren't that many black people, and the Chinese were an added element, the Native American population in California occupied a role that didn't exist in the east. --Stef L.

== Zitkala-Sa Travels to the Land of the Big Red Apples, 1884 ==
Although Zitkala-Sa was (according to the introduction) legitimately traveling to a school, the fantasy world that was described to her (a place where she could have all the apples she wanted!--and no downsides?) by the "palefaces"--and the idea of a group of white men coming in, gathering up children, and taking them away after only minimally describing what their lives would be like, seemed extremely suspect to me. The whole idea of people coming in, rounding up children or women, feeding them lies or half-truths, and then removing them from their lives is uncomfortably similar to the lies the Chinese women who were later contracted out as prostitutes may have been told. Indeed, those sorts of situations are still used to trap victims for sex trafficking today. So, even if Zitkala-Sa went to school, became highly-educated, and returned to her family as a contributing member of Dakota society, the circumstances for her original removal from her family remain highly sketchy to me. -- Nicole

I absolutely agree with Nicole. This story seemed really sad to me. As soon as the little girl got onto the horse drawn wagon, and she felt that sense of regret immediately, I couldn't help but be sad because I knew how much she regretted her decision, especially when her mom was so uncomfortable with the decision. But, I wondered where they were going in "the east"? And what school they were really going to? Like Nicole said, it all looked very shady and suspect to me. --Aqsa Z.

As I was reading Big Red Apples, I found myself telling the little girl "no you don't want to go with those men" knowing that she was either becoming enslaved or sold for sex.  Why didn't these children listen to their parents? I guess because they were so young and impressionable it was easy to get the young kids to want to see the East and what kind of opportunities they were missing out on, when in all reality it was not somewhere they would want to end up.  The Mother in Big Red Apples knew that there was something suspicious going on, but also thought that her daughter was going to get an "education" and not knowing that this may be the last time she may see her daughter.-- Pam P.

This story was amazing to me because of how trusting these families were. Zitkala-Sa's family is only one example, but their reaction was probably not uncommon. The mother had misgivings, but gave in under gentle pressure and allowed her daughter to leave with complete strangers to an unknown destination with no way to contact her child. Like Nicole said, this could easily have resulted in forced prostitution. Why did these families place so much trust in the missionaries? -- Stef L.

== Mrs. A. M. Greene, in Colorado Territory -- Frontier life – 1887 ==

This was so sad. They were talking about what their family was going through and the hardships they had to face like moving west away from everything that they had known into a land that they were not familiar with. While they choose to go through all of this, I still think that it was so sad! –Kayle P.

I agree Kayle, this was so sad.  Moving your family to unknown places without the comforts that you know and possibly your extended family nearby...it must have been heartbreaking!  The men went off to work, but the women were left, alone to adjust.  Her children being her support to get her through the days.  At least in this tale of A.M. Green it seems like she had a caring husband who was concerned with her well-being.  --Remy B.

== Violet Cragg requests an Army Pension, 1908 ==

This was so complicated to get a pension.  She had to know all of the information down to dates, people, time, places. I don’t think that I would have been able to keep all of that information straight and all she was trying to do was get money that she was mostly likely entitled to. It is sad that she had to put that much effort into getting something that she deserves. –Kayle P

'''This is actually a very typical pension application''', from what I've seen of them. I've done quite a bit of research with Civil War pension files in the National Archives, and all of them ask for documentation such as this. Hers does have more dates and personal information than the soldiers' pensions that I've worked with, but all of their files require similar documentation. They must prove when and where they enlisted, that they are unable to support themselves, and that their disability is directly connected to their service. There must be support from others that this is true, and that they are who they say they are. So, it makes sense that she would have to prove when and where she served as well. I think all pension files are this detailed.
I've also worked with pension claims filed by mothers and wives of soldiers, and they are all concerned, as the latter part of Violet Cragg's, with proving the relationship between the claimant and the soldier. Many of these files contain marriage certificates and piles of affidavits verifying that the two were related and that the claimant relied on the soldier for support. I've never been lucky enough to find one which included a picture, as Violet Cragg offers to send, and I wonder whether a picture was ever sent and included in the file. 
I agree with Kayle that it does seem harsh to place this huge burden of proof on a person who has served their country, but it also makes sense that the Pension Bureau would guard against fraud, and that they would need all this documentation in order to award pensions to people who had no other means of support. --Rebecca W.

== New York Prostitutes by William Sanger, 1858==
"'When a woman drinks she is lost.' It will be conceded that the habit of intoxication in woman, if not an indication of actual depravity or vice, is a sure precursor of it, for drunkenness and debauchery are inspearable companions, one almost invariably following the other." page 290. '''I choose this quote to exemplify this document for a couple of reasons. 1. it is actually funny to think about how alcohol was viewed as this causer of evil, not as though the person was evil and alcohol just allowed them to be evil. 2. Because it does not mention the debauchery of men while they drink and is only concerned with women's behavior when the entire prohbition and temperance movement sprung out of woman's desire for men to stop drinking away all of the family's money, sleeping with prostitutes and beating there wives when drunk. 3. I think the sympathy which the doctor had to these prostitutes is remarkable for the time period in which it existed.''' --Sara S.

This reading exemplifies the other side of the budding female independence that was taking shape during the rise of factories and cities.  With previous readings it appeared that by young women stepping outside of the home to work in factories was a viable way for them to financially support themselves until marriage.  Here the opposite of that is examined where women attempt to go out in the world but then struggle to survive and thus have to degrade themselves in order to live. ''' With almost every case the reasoning concludes with mans shortcomings as a provider and caretaker for the woman, demonstrating that this view of the independent factory girl was far from being economically stable.'''  Like Sara I found it unique that the doctor showed sympathy towards these girls, yet even with prostitution being a massive issue was there no one else in a position of authority who cared enough to try and help out?  Or was the stigma that existed in regards to immigrants standing in the way of "Christianly" behavior to save them?  -- Rachel T.

"Ever sympathetic, Dr. Sanger saw his subjects as victims of the harsh urban environment: of family disorganization or disintegration, and especially of low wages, underemployment, and poverty," (page 288). Dr. Sanger obviously felt bad for these women, 88% of which were of the ages 15-30. I actually began to have sympathy for some of them as well. I hope those women didn't want to be prostitutes, but it was so common that they felt as if it were their only option. Men in their lives died or abandoned them and they had nothing and needed to provide for their children; this was a quick way to make money (not saying I agree with it). I kept having to second guess my feelings of sympathy because I'm sure some of the ladies made their story seem worse than it really was so that she would receive sympathy rather than looks of disgust. So many questions ran through my mind as I read. Did the friends and family they did have know what they were doing? Why didn't anyone try to stop them? What other options were there? --Ashley V.

'''I was surprised to find that many of these women in this section were once married and deserted. For some reason, I had not considered that even back in the nineteenth century, prostitution was a productive way to support oneself.''' It is also unfortunate that, as Sanger said, these women were often victim to desertion or adultery by their husbands, and unfortunately felt as though they had to resort to prostitution. I also found it fascinating that in a time where the topic of sex was taboo, the "inclination" category made up one quarter of the causes of prostitution. That does not seem to fit into my schema of the time period. --Mary Beth M.

This excerpt reveals the sad state of prostitutes in the late nineteenth century. The negative effects of urban life drove many women, the majority of whom were immigrants, to the streets to support themselves and oftentimes their families (because of husbands who had died or had deserted them). I found the studies done by Dr. Sanger to be very interesting. I agree with Mary Beth: how interesting that "inclination" drew nearly the most number of responses when women were asked why they chose prostitution. Definitely an instance that defies the stereotype concerning sex and how it was discussed in society in the late nineteenth century. --Ellen S.

'''I thought it was interesting that William Sanger spent much of his analysis on the “ill treatment of parents, relatives, or husbands” when “inclination” was much higher on the list. Perhaps Sanger felt that “inclination” was the choice of the women and thus was not worthy of explanation whereas, “ill-treatment of family” was a cause that could not be avoided and thus invokes pity. It is interesting to note the own biases in his writing.''' Although a sound document, do you think the biases in his work hinder the information being expressed? --Hannah W.


I think that in any primary document, the author's biases and opinions will leak out through the text. I think Sanger took pity on the women and felt sorry for many of them, for they really had nowhere else to go. --Catherine K.

I thought this was really interesting. The fact that so many put “Inclination” surprised me, why wouldn’t they use some sort of excuse for becoming a prostitute rather than the fact that prostitution was their preference or a natural tendency. Admitting to this seems more shameful than being a prostitute itself. Of course, Dr. Sanger made excuses for those who said this, that this was a result of other and controlling influences; that the answer implies a depravity of womanly feelings. I was not surprised about the number of women who were led into prostitution because their men deserted them. I was surprised by the number of women who put “As an easy life” and “Persuaded by a prostitute”. Much like the Inclination group, these answers surprise and baffle me. I also wondered how much they were able to make as prostitutes during this time in order to choose it as a, for lack of a better term, profession. Another question I had was the amount of women who claimed they were “seduced”, I wondered if being seduced and then deserted led them into prostitution, or if being seduced labeled them as a prostitute?--Emma C.

I thought this passage was extremely sad. These poor women were forced into a life of prostitution for many reasons, but many of them had no choice. One of the saddest accounts for me was the entry by C.H., who was married at a young age and had 3 children. She was desperate for a way to support them, and when all other methods failed, she turned to prostitution. In reading this, I didn't find it much different from the world today. There are many women that turn to prostitution or even stripping for money just to earn a living. Many of these women are single mothers and they are doing whatever they can to make sure there is food in their children's mouths. I thought it was interesting in Dr. Sanger's results 164 people stated it was "an easy life". This I find difficult to believe. -- Lindsey S.