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Deprecated: header(): Passing null to parameter #3 ($response_code) of type int is deprecated in /home/umwhisto/public_html/mcclurken/wiki/includes/WebResponse.php on line 38 https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/api.php?action=feedcontributions&feedformat=atom&user=NLWMcClurken Wiki - User contributions [en]2026-09-18T22:16:29ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.22.0https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_13_Questions/Comments328--Week 13 Questions/Comments2008-04-16T02:34:45Z<p>NLW: </p>
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<div>'''In addition to the interview writing assignment, everyone is expected to look over the other interviews and discuss them in our wiki here. What patterns do you see? What experiences stand out? Did these interviews challenge or meet with the trends we've talked about in class?<br />
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NOTE: You do not need to post about the reading for April 17 (though you are responsible for reading it).'''<br />
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When looking through all of the interviews, there were a lot of different trends that stand out. The first thing I noticed was that many of the women who grew up in rural areas had similar experiences in small school houses and growing up with farm life. Some of them noted that they had less technology available to them that many other women, who lived in less rural areas, started using earlier. --Jessica Kilday<br />
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I think it is important to consider geography when looking at some of the different experiences of women in the 20th century. I don’t know how much it was emphasized in my paper, but in my interview with Pat Teevan she said that women were expected to stay at home until they were married, but she didn’t marry. If she stayed in Boston then she would have been expected to live in her parent’s house, that’s why she moved to DC. This was also seen in the interview with Mary Nolan in Pennsylvania, as a single girl, “she never considered getting her own apartment.” When looking at the interviews of many of the women who grew up in the north (Massachusetts, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, NY, etc.), it seems like a lot of these women were more likely to be independent. --Jessica Kilday<br />
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After looking through a lot of the papers the trend I noticed was that all these women had some type of education. Also a lot of theme weren't feminists, however their mothers did encourage them to go to school until high school and even a good amount went to college. But a good majority did leave high school get a job and get married, a trend that I noticed is a lot of them had children with in the first year or so of their marriages. There was no wait period like today, some people wait 5-6 years. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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My grandma made a point of noting that when she was in high school her mother made sure she learned something she could use later in life. She took shorthand, typing and stenography, all skills used in clerical work, some of the other women I noticed had taken similar courses and took jobs as secretaries. The women in a lot of these papers took the jobs that were saved for women, secretarial and school teachers. My grandma before she even finished school was doing some clerical work, and when she graduated she went into the military but ended up being a secretary in the pentagon. All these women were your typical American women, taking the stereotypical job and then became a homemaker. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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Commenting on Jessica's point on how northern girls seemed like they were more important. I feel like this could because of the fact that a large portion of the north was cities, NY, CONN is very close to NY, Mass has Boston, with all these cities there are mor job options. Also girls that wanted to get out of their rural homes went to Urban area to find a job an a place to live and as we know there are thousands of apartments women could move into. From what we have learned, women in the past who went to the cities were always more independent, because they had left home. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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After reading accounts of numerous women's lives it becomes quite clear how rare it was for women living during the 20th century to become professionals. Even when these women did go to college and were encouraged by their mothers to be independent, it seemed as if most ended up finding a husband and adapting to his lifestyle. I think that there would be such a drastic difference in the probability of getting an interview with a professional woman today. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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Something I noticed alot in the interviews were how many women actually went to college. That relates a lot to what we've been looking at in this class, because so many women did go to college but it oftened so to be a waist because they didn't really use their education, and that is apparent too in these interviews. Some either thought they were going to college but then suddenly decided to get married instead, or others did go to college and then they got married but still ended up staying home once married or had children. In one interview it talked about how married women didn't work or simply weren't hired as well as didn't come back to work at all once married or pregnant, which is something we've talked a lot about in this class. Even in my own interview, she realized that a lot her friends got married right out of high school and if you didn't then you went off to college.--Michelle M.<br />
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Also I there were several women who experienced war at one point in time in their life, whether it was WWII or Vietnam, they remember it and the affects it had on their family. I liked Jessica's remark about geography, because two of the interviews (maybe more) were women who were from West Viginia, and I thought it was particularly interesting how segregation played no part in their part of the country, and even how her school had a black student body president. I think that is amazing and even goes to prove that racism wasn't everywhere, even though it was wide spread through the country that there was at least once place were it didn't seem to matter. I wonder if there were any other places like that? Because you mostly here about the segragation in the south, well what about the rest of the country?--Michelle M.<br />
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Ashley's interview with Audrey Gunnoe really struck me as different from other interviews of women who grew up in rural areas. The fact that she was discouraged from school and expected to marry so early seems very out of place compared to the US as a whole. I also thought that her transition from the extremes of rural to urban life also made her experiences (her career and later beliefs) stand out from the others. It seemed that so much of what path the others eventually took was determined by where they grew up and what ideals their parents enstilled in them. With Gunnoe this was not the case. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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Another pattern that I noticed was just how pervasive WWII was on these women specifically because of how many had husbands/boyfriends who served. I don't think that there is the same impact on women today because of how rare it is to hear a woman in college talk about her boyfriend or husband serving. Although it definitely happens it is nothing compared to the recollection of the women we interviewed. All the men, rural, urban, suburban, were serving. The impact of the distance between loved ones seemed more relevant on the memory of these women than the jobs the war opened. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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I noticed that many of the women fulfilled the role of stay-at-home mother and did so willingly. Many said they enjoyed being home for their children and would not have done anything different if given the chance. I was also surprised by the number of them who said they did not feel presured into that life. - Christine W.<br />
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I was shocked to read about how many women were divorced. We have learned in class that divorce was not common and sometimes even looked down upon yet several of the women interviewed were divorced. I also found it interesting that none of them gave a really solid answer when asked why they got a divorce. Most seemed to just ignore the question all together. - Christine W.<br />
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So far, I have noticed the obvious, the women from wealthy families went to college. Women from poor families did not. <br />
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Jean Fay Scott- divorced … poor…. Worked in a cigarette factory ... did not go to college. <br />
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Heidi Brown- German Immigrant married an American. Poor childhood... no college. <br />
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Molly woody went to college … wealthy family.. family had servants. <br />
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Marye Ostwald went to college… wealthy family.. had servants. <br />
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I also noticed that in two of the interviews, the mothers wanted more for their daughters than they had.<br />
Nikole Wellman</div>NLWhttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_5_Questions/Comments328--Week 5 Questions/Comments2008-02-14T13:23:39Z<p>NLW: /* Harriet Brunkhurst's article */</p>
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<div>== Harriet Brunkhurst's article ==<br />
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In Harriet Brunkhurst's article I found it sad to read how the mother of working women expected so much more of their working daughters than of their working sons. Not only was being looked down upon for being in the same level as men bad enoough, but they were expected to cook, clean and do other odd end things around the house after a tiresome day at work, while the sons did nothing but relax after a tiresome day at work. The part that most hit me was Cecil's story. Her mother has her work and wants to hear nothing about how Cecil is tired from work yet she has the nerver to say "John is so tired when he returns from work" about her husband!!! -Emely Amaya<br />
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I also found it interesting to read Harriet Brunkhurst’s article in Major Problems in American Women’s History. It was sad that the women were not as respected as men for holding full time business jobs. However, I think it was largely to do with the context of the time. Mothers couldn’t empathize with their daughters because they expected them to play the same role in the household that they had once held. They knew that their daughters were the main providers, but the idea of this was out of line with the traditional norms and expectations of society at the time. This conflict created a double standard for the working girls, conforming to both the expectations one would hold for the head of the house as well as the expectations for the woman of the house, with fewer of the benefits of each. --Jessica Kilday<br />
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The other thing that stuck out to me about Harriet Brunkhurst's piece was the bit about housework being so much more tiresome than paid jobs were at the time. It kind of brings up that little dig that with the sphere of domesticity, women were expected to work around the house and were no longer considered real "breadwinners" because their jobs were innate. It seems almost as if the mothers were upset their daughters could go out and make money for "shorter workdays" while they were stuck at home taking care of the household and making sure the family was comfortable when they returned home, finding their family ungrateful for all they do. -- Kelly Wuyscik <br />
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In Harriet Brunkhurst's article entitled "Business Girls," she identifies how a mother and daughter struggle in their relationship. Despite the daughter's role as the breadwinner, the mother, who is a homemaker, inflicts her judgment of her daughter's behavior within the confines of the home. The mother "would yield without question to husband or son occupying the same position, debates Rose's every movement simply because she is a girl."(266) We read about suppression of race and gender, but the suppression from within the structure of a girl's life can dictate a life of inadequacy. Our socialization and placement in the world is influenced by school, government, friends and most importantly family. The family instills values and beliefs and is the most enduring agent in the life of a child. If this type of suppression exists within the family, what can be expected of a child as an adult?--LisaM <br />
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I think Lisa makes a good point about what can be expected of a child as an adult. I know my mother struggles with having her mom live with her right now. My grandma was raised that women stay home, do housework, raise children, and have a 'man' provide for them. Every day mom comes home tired and wore out (its been stressful at work lately) and my grandmother gets on her case about laundry, dishes, vacuming, and the like the moment she walks in, but says nothing to my father who helps my mom out with housework all the time. She fights with mom but when dad says something she shuts up and leaves mom alone. Its almost like I watch and live in this time setting because she also does it to me when I'm visiting my parents --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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In continuation of the discussion on Harriet Brunkhurst's article, I feel that the constrictions of women's lives from within the family can still be seen today. Although less explicitly obvious I still feel that the expectations to adhere to domestic sphere are very strong. There is still an understanding in our culture that a woman is in charge of the home. Today, when a male takes on domestic chores he is not necessarily seen as less male, but when a female does not keep a clean room or home she is blamed and suffers the burden of conforming to the domestic ideals still implicit. I don't think that women have yet been freed from the guilt of not following the social norm. Unfortunately, as Brunkhurst's article demonstrates, for the most part it is the female relatives placing the burden upon young women. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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As a man in what I feel is a very egalitarian marriage, I can second Meredith's post above completely! My mother-in-law was a traditional stay at home mom who raised two daughters, 10 years apart in age. She raised the daughters, kept an immaculate and spotless house (still does now), and made sure the home was a "refuge" for her husband who was a Philadelphia police officer. When my in-laws come down on occasion, she doesn't understand when my wife is not flying around the house picking stuff up. She'll sometimes chide my wife when she sees me vacuuming the house or doing laundry. Despite the fact that we both work full time, her mom's expectation is that Debbie should be keeping house most of the time as well. She really does not comprehend that the "second shift" at home, with a houseful of kids, is a two person deal. To be honest, I probably still only do about 30 percent to my wife's 70 percent of the domestic stuff - not that I'm complaining! - Phil N.<br />
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I found it interesting to read Harriet Brunkhurst’s article in Major Problems in American Women’s History. I agree with all the points above and would like to make a few additional comments. Life for women today is similar to what "The Business Girl" in 1910 had experienced. If a Mother works outside the home today she is still expected to keep a clean house, have dinner on the table and have well behaved and well adjusted children. However, today's Working Mothers have shortcuts in which Roses and her mother did not have. For example, a vaccume cleaner,a microwave and even Easy Mac. <br />
Rose is a successful women in the working world, however at home she is still Rose and has her family responsibilities. As far as the Mother/Daughter relationship goes...I think it is common for Mothers to accept the way women were treated and expects the daughters to follow suite. Why shake things up? "If it was good enough for me what is in not good enough for you?" Younger generations are more likely to make changes instead of accepting traditional ways.--Nikole Wellman <br />
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I have read about the Triangle Factory Fire before. My son studied this elementary school. I read The New York Times Reports the tragedy of the Triangle Factory Fire, 1911 and thought the same thing...Immigrants were working for the American dream. The reading said that most of the people could barely speak English. They dealt with the poor working conditions because they had to feed their families. It seems that Immigrants today are similar. They accept poor wages and working conditions. They gather at locations(a particular 7/11 comes to mind) hoping to get a labor job for that day. Obviously, there are other immigration issues today, however the fact that people come to America to do better for themselves and families often deal with poor labor and wage conditions. <br />
The fact that the Triangle factory locked the doors so that the workers could not leave was inhumane. --Nikole Wellman<br />
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== Comparisons ==<br />
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It is interesting to compare Modern American Women: “The Harsh Conditions of Domestic Service” with how Fannie Williams describes the “Problem of Employment for Negro Women in Major Problems. Both of these sources describe working conditions for African American women. The first source discusses the role of the “nurse” in the household. The nurse however is responsible for much more than caring for the health of children and family, she is asked to carry out household tasks as well. It is almost as if slavery is continued by the need and difficulty of African American women to find work. The second source points out specifically that, African American women are more commonly employed to domestic service. She seems to take a different spin out however by suggesting that if you can’t be employed to a more honorable position, then make the position you can work more honorable. The question then becomes, what makes a position honorable? And how can you elevate a position if you have no control over the pay, benefits, or job description? --Jessica Kilday<br />
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How was sexual harassment handled during the early 20th century? I mean there are accounts of needing witnesses and having detectives, but it all seems a bit informal. --Justin Mattos<br />
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Like Justin, I am curious how sexual harassment was handled. It seemed that many males got away with sexual harassing females because the females did not want to lose their job. Did this occur often? Did many of the harassers get dealt with? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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The readings in MP and MAW both discuss how difficult the lives of working women were, for every type of women. The immagrants were over worked and underpaid as well as black women, but they had to fight even harder to find a job, and then there were the white women who worked in department stores who ended up selling themselves to make ends meet. What was interesting about the department store essay was how none of the women referred to what they did after hours as prostiting. I assume this is because they were possibly ashamed of what they were doing and trying to make it sound like something its not. It was more than just going out to the theatre or dinner. Also surprisingly enough these girls were very young as well as the men they were intertaining seemed to be married most of the time. This was easy money for them which seemed to be why it was so appealing.<br />
--Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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I found Fannie Barrier Williams thoughts on the “problem of Employments for Negro Women” to be particularly interesting because rather then focusing on domestic servitude as wearing women down (all the essays in MAW did), she actually thought that it ALSO created girls with “more than ordinary strength of character.” She evens calls upon black women to raise the status of servant women. It is like she encourages women to take this job and then actively work to elevate the status of the occupation. However, it seems to focus a lot on the job as other people in society view it…. which is a very middle class America concern. – Cat Debelius<br />
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== Judy Yung, “Unbound Feet: Chinese Women in the Public Sphere" ==<br />
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I was amazed by the large role that the YWCA played in the liberation of Chinese women. From what I read, I think that they were more liberated than white women. --Justin Mattos<br />
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Like Justin I was surprised how the YWCA played such an important role. These women were isolated and this organization pulled them from their closets. It is amazing how customs shaped the Chinese woman's life experience. In "Unbound Feet" it states, "it was considered immodest to be seen too many times during the year."(263) Chinese women were made invisible by their culture. The idea of seeing a friend only on a special occasion, which was not due to distance, or the need to travel in a closed coach for short distances is suffocating. The YWCA recognized this and offered an opportunity that allowed women of similar backgrounds to meet and receive assistance outside their homes, but the most important contribution the YWCA gave these women was power. The power to meet, to decide and to change their lives in a way that they could now participate in it.--LisaM<br />
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I find it kind of interesting how the political events taking place in China had a big effect on the way Chinese people in Ameica lived. I admire how the women in Chinese in America helped the Revoultionary cause back in the homeland and helped liberize the women both here in America and in China by allowing them to unbind their feet, go out in public and learn to read and be educated and become independent from men.- Emely Amaya<br />
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I found it intriguiing while reading Judy Yung's essay in Unequal Sisters that the protestant church was the first to encourage chinese women and that the Chinese women's involvement with church activities helped to expand their gender roles. I knew foot binding has ended, but its always nice to read about something that ended that I felt was cruel. I also found it interesting that to support the revolution, women in China did various activities such as enlisting in the army and engaging in dangerous uncover work. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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"Unbound Feet" doesn't go in depth on the foot binding issue. Based upon what I have read the process of foot binding was painful and and caused physical problems later in life, but what struck me was that there was a stigma attached to it. Foot binding made a woman more desirable, which makes them marriage worthy. I read one account where a potential mother-in-law checked the feet of the potential bride. If she had not been foot bound, the marriage was not approved by the family. Mothers performed this painful procedure, which began around the age of 4, on their daughters. Can you imagine putting a child in pain to conform to the norms within the culture.--LisaM<br />
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I agree with Lisa, I can't imagine putting a child that young through that much pain only to conform to the norms of the culture! It's interesting that the women, who know the pain that the foot binding causes, were the ones to bind the feet of the young girls. I think that it just shows how much women get caught up in the gender roles and norms of a given culture. --Katie Nelson<br />
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In Judy Yung's essay she says that black and Chinese women modeled their clubs after the white womens, but they formed these clubs because they were not allowed in the white womens, so why model it after them because after all each had different motives? This also brings me to another question which I'm not sure even deals with this just yet during this time, but the question of segregation. Everything was segregated into black and white like schools, theatres, and restrooms, so where does that leave people like the Chinese?<br />
--Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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In response to Michelle, I think the reason they modeled their clubs after the white women because they wanted to be accepted into that culture. Even though they had different motives they wanted acceptance as well. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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I was impressed by the amount Chinese women were in the public sphere. I feel that if they had a larger population and an earlier start they could have surpassed the efforts of white women. I was surprised that the church was one of the main organizations that helped these women enter the public sphere. I would have thought that the church would have tried to keep women in traditional roles. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
I was also surprised by the role that the church played in bringing the Chinese women into the public sphere. Although, I think that the church's main effort may have been to simply Americanize the Chinese women, and maybe they realized that they had to get them out of the house in order to do that. In that sense, maybe bringing them into the public sphere and beginning to change the gender norms was an afterthought rather than the primary motivation. --Katie Nelson<br />
<br />
It seems as if the Chinese women first had to break through their own incredibly repressive culture, only to enter into what is a comparibly better but still repressive American Culture. Not only did these women face gender discrimination from men, racial discrimination from the other ethnic groups, but they were discriminated against in amazingly archaic ways by their own people (foot-binding,not leaving the home save for once a year, etc.). Despite the prejudices imposed on the Chinese by Americans, the lifting of their own cultural restraints after the Chinese revolution must have been a wonderful and exciting experience for the women. --Landon Davis<br />
<br />
In the chapter “Unbound Feet: Chinese Women in the Public Sphere,” Chinese women had different views on why they should create clubs. The values they wanted to help in their clubs were support for education, socioeconomic mobility, and community improvement. The group of people who encouraged the Chinese women to organize the activities was the Protestant churches. Out of all the religions why did the Protestants support the Chinese women? –Ashley Scutari<br />
<br />
<br />
I found this particular reading very interesting. In a way I saw a connection between all of the movements that women made into society. Most, if not all, women of all races appear to have been able to push themselves further into the public sphere because of the activities that they became involved in through churches. This appears to be no different in the case of Chinese American women. Judy Yung specifically mentions how they were able to expand their roles in society due to church groups and that being involved allowed them to leave their homes. I find this connection very important in seeing connections between various races. - Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
== The Burdens of Rural Woman's Lives ==<br />
<br />
I found it interesting to read in "The Burdens of Rural Woman's Lives" that the husband stayed home during the Civil War after being drafted by paying $300. It seemed to be a parallel to more recent wars like the Vietnam War. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Kind of going off of Justin's comment, I was actually curious about the farm woman's husban in "The Burden's of Rural Woman's Lives." Was it common for men to pay the $300 and get out of service? Or was this something only the wealthier could get away with? I ask this question mostly because everything I've learned about the Civil War indicated that there were soldiers needed on the battlefields and by reading about this family, they didn't seem like they had all that much money. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
I also found interesting in "the burden of rural womens lives" the fact that this womoan not only never complained, but almost was bragging at points about how hard her work was but how easily she seemed to accomplish it. She talked about how many articles she was able to read while churning butter, the record amounts of wood or other goods she would stack and produce, and how at 58 she could easily walk a mile as fast as anyone else. She never complained even when mentioning that only 5 of her 8 children were still alive. Her son was attending Cornell, but she seemed most proud of the fact that she has survived such a hard life. I take my hat off to her. - Landon Davis<br />
<br />
<br />
== Buffalobird Woman's Story ==<br />
<br />
The article I really took interest in was ''Buffalobird Woman's Story''. I know that in Native American societies women were the oweners of the land they were in charge of agricultural practices. This had been going on for hundreds and hundreds of years, and the fact that the government comes in a just changes everything really bothers me. They give them all these crops to plant when they don't even eat them and a lot of the crops are left in the ground. In reality the nation was just wasting their money providing seeds and showing them new planting techniques. I find it funny that in the end the women states that her old ways are more efficient then the new ways. She even proves this by winning a prize for her corn because she grew it the way she knew. What I am so confused about is why the government had to control how they grew their crops? Why waste time even worrying about what they are growing and how? Is it really that important of an issue? -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
I agree with Amanda it seems like the government came in and told the Indians how and what to grow, but didnt teach them anything past that. The article talks about how the Indians did not like the way the food tasted or how it would spoil after a while. If the government was going to take the time to show the Indians how to produce the new foods, why not teach them how to perserve the new foods, or even cook and season them, so that the food was edible. It looks like the gov't only gave the Indians half of the knowledge they needed to make the new foods work. And if the Indians were happy beofre why even change it up in the first place? - Landon Davis<br />
<br />
<br />
== Rose Cohen Describes Her First Job in New York City, 1892 ==<br />
<br />
''Rose Cohen Describes Her First Job in New York City, 1892''really upset me. Number one the fact that this factory employer intentionally took advantage of the fact that she was young she was taken care of. It also really bothered me when her father pointed out to her that she was being employed weekly so she couldn't get paid more. I don't understand why the father would ever be fine with something like that. She is working just as hard as him to make money so the rest of the family could come to New York. The part that upset me the most is when she talked about how on her walks home she would pretend that she was coming home to her family and a warm meal. The last line" I used to keep this up until I turned the key in the door and opened it and stood facing the dark, cold, silent room." which makes me question, why even bother going through all this? Wouldn't it be better for the family to be together? Even if things were bad at least they would have each other. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
Like Amanda, I had a hard time getting through "Rose Cohen Describes Her First Job in New York City, 1892," because it was such a depressing piece. Listening to her little voice describe how terrible her life was and how horribly her father was about her situation just upset me a lot. The paragraph about her imaginary family was so heart wrenching I couldn't help but want that for her. To come home to an cold, lonely, empty house must have been terrible, especially at her age. I could never imaging going through something like that. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
In response to Amanda, I also found this story very touching but I feel like you can see her desire to have her whole family together again. Her logic seems to be that if she could put up with the horrible treatment just a little longer she would then be able to be around her mother and the children again despite the hardships. I think she would agree that it would be better for the family to be together, which is why she pushes through the difficulties. At the same time, I don't fully agree why the father and Rose left the family instead of her father and someone else.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
Well, I never actually realized that the poor treatment of immigrant women really happened. I have heard and ready stories, but these primary documents we had to read for today opened my eyes that the horrific treatment towards women was the NORM NOT THE EXCEPTION. Rose accepted this arrangement as she knew that if she left her job her family would suffer. Also, she was replaceable, if she left some other young girl would take her place. It seems that so many immigrants are after the American Dream, they will endure just about anything to get it.<br />
<br />
== Others ==<br />
<br />
<br />
I was impressed by how well written some of the pieces were in the MAW reading. Obviously I am not referring to the writings to the Chicago based DEFENDER, but the two letters to the Jewish Forward, and the article "Harsh Conditions of Domestic Servitude" were both intelligent well worded essays. This points out to me the wasted potential of what must have been thousands upon thousands of women during this time period. They were reduced to factory, shopgirl, or domestic work, when they were clearly educated enough to make a real contribution to society. - Landon Davis <br />
<br />
<br />
I thought Agnes Nester's piece, "The Story of a Glove Maker," explained very well the way women and young girls were treated in factories. The fact that they had clocks, not so they knew when to leave, but to calculate how much time they had lost is truly disheartening. It was unfair of the factory owners to take advantage of them and deduct pay because their machine broke. It just bothers me that things that were out of control were penalties to them. Walking around waiting for the beltboy to come and fix your sewing machine should not mean you lose pay. But I suppose that since women were considered such cheap labor and since the factory owners were skimping on that much, why should we expect them to have functioning machinery too? -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
I found the journal "The Harsh Conditions of Domestic Service" in MAW to be an eye opener. Reading about the negro woman and her daily taks including 14-16 hours of work with nursing children not hers as one of them to be insane. She was the main caretaker of these children with restricted visitation of her own.. seriously!? What got to me was the quote "I live a treadmill life; and I see my own children onl when they happen to see me on the streets when I am out with the children, or when my children come to the 'yard' to see me." -- Rose Ferguson<br />
<br />
I also thought the quote by Frances Willard to be incredibly true with her parallels to life and bicycles. "I always felt a strong attraction toward the bicycle, because it is the vehicle of so much harmless pleasure, and because the skill required in handling it obliges those who mount to keep clear heads and steady hands." I'm sure it was hard to keep a clear head when some of the work these women were doing wouldn't allow them to see their family. -- Rose Ferguson<br />
<br />
I found the quote by Francis Willard as she learned to ride a bicycle to be quite meaningful as well. It was a vehicle that forced women for a brief moment to concentrate on their own thoughts rather than what their husband or children or parents needed of them. It was a moment in which a woman could prove to herself her own strength and experience a physical freedom. Quite symbolic of breaking free of many of society's constraints.-- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
In "The Story of a Glove Maker", it amazed me how hard these women worked and also how they had to pay out their own money to do their job like paying 50 cents a week for the use of power to run the machines!! That is insane. How did anyone make enough money to live on when they are charged just to use the sewing machines?~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
<br />
I thought it was interesting reading about the women who wrote to the Jewish Daily Forward. The story of the young girl who lost her fiancee in the triangle shop fire. I felt so sorry for her. She was all alone in a new country and the advice she gets is "what the earth covers must be forgotten." (65) It would be hard for anyone to get over what she went through and I know it had been four years since the event but the advice still seems harsh to me.~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
<br />
In "The Harsh Conditions of Domestic Service", I was curious about the "service pan", the essay stated that it was left over food that the cook would "dispose" of. Was the cook dividing it up among her neighbors? How much left overs did they have? Was it just a once a week thing since the writer said she could only go home once every 2 weeks or could cooks go home more often than the nurse could?~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
<br />
I found it interesting in the document of “Female Perspective on the Great migration” that over 500,000 blacks left the south between 1916 and 1919, then over a million by the 1920’s. This movement was called the “push and pull aspects of migration.” A lot of blacks pushed out of the South because there weren’t any new advancements and the pull was the new opportunities that lied ahead. With the African American women moving up to the North for work, how much did that really affect the jobs of immigrant women? Was it a huge effect or a little because immigrants usually worked for lower wage?<br />
-Ashley Scutari<br />
<br />
A couple of the accounts of domestic servitude in Modern American Women talk about having only “oral contracts.” Why is this? I thought by the late 19th Century people would hold written contracts. When I first read that I thought that oral contracts might be a positive thing for the servants because they could walk away from them with out series legal repercussions, but the more I think about it… maybe an oral contract is worse? In an oral contract the terms can change whenever the employer wants and the servant can’t really just walk away from it because they don’t have the money and resource to go anywhere else. Perhaps oral contracts were just another way to keep lower class (often black) women oppressed. – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
To what extent was the North actually the “promise land” that poor southern black women thought it to be? It seems that domestic service was widespread, form South to North. – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
The various stories about the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire were all very heartbreaking, especially the one where the girl lost her fiance'. Let's face it, factory life for men and women in the late 19th and early 20th centuries was a hellish existence in most cases. However, one would have to acknowledge that it was in many cases worse for women due to their lack of power at that time. They were more easily exploited than men; thus leading to all-female industries and factories in which men were the bosses and foremans and women were the production workers. - Phil N.<br />
<br />
<br />
Yet again I found that the articles in MAW moved me more than any other articles. In particular "WOrking Women Write the Jewish Daily Forward" got to me. The first story made me angry because of the horrible treatment that she had to endure because of her need for the job. I don't know if I would have been able to continue working in an area where the boss made unwelcome sexual advances. But even more so the 2nd story about the young girl whose bridegroom was killed in the Triangle Factory Fire touched me. Not only did she loose her love and have to deal with another man's advances, but she lost him when he went in to save others. He had been safe but then put himself back into danger. This document just showed how hard these girls actually had it. -Elizabeth Frank</div>NLWhttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_5_Questions/Comments328--Week 5 Questions/Comments2008-02-14T12:39:27Z<p>NLW: /* Rose Cohen Describes Her First Job in New York City, 1892 */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Harriet Brunkhurst's article ==<br />
<br />
In Harriet Brunkhurst's article I found it sad to read how the mother of working women expected so much more of their working daughters than of their working sons. Not only was being looked down upon for being in the same level as men bad enoough, but they were expected to cook, clean and do other odd end things around the house after a tiresome day at work, while the sons did nothing but relax after a tiresome day at work. The part that most hit me was Cecil's story. Her mother has her work and wants to hear nothing about how Cecil is tired from work yet she has the nerver to say "John is so tired when he returns from work" about her husband!!! -Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
I also found it interesting to read Harriet Brunkhurst’s article in Major Problems in American Women’s History. It was sad that the women were not as respected as men for holding full time business jobs. However, I think it was largely to do with the context of the time. Mothers couldn’t empathize with their daughters because they expected them to play the same role in the household that they had once held. They knew that their daughters were the main providers, but the idea of this was out of line with the traditional norms and expectations of society at the time. This conflict created a double standard for the working girls, conforming to both the expectations one would hold for the head of the house as well as the expectations for the woman of the house, with fewer of the benefits of each. --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
The other thing that stuck out to me about Harriet Brunkhurst's piece was the bit about housework being so much more tiresome than paid jobs were at the time. It kind of brings up that little dig that with the sphere of domesticity, women were expected to work around the house and were no longer considered real "breadwinners" because their jobs were innate. It seems almost as if the mothers were upset their daughters could go out and make money for "shorter workdays" while they were stuck at home taking care of the household and making sure the family was comfortable when they returned home, finding their family ungrateful for all they do. -- Kelly Wuyscik <br />
<br />
In Harriet Brunkhurst's article entitled "Business Girls," she identifies how a mother and daughter struggle in their relationship. Despite the daughter's role as the breadwinner, the mother, who is a homemaker, inflicts her judgment of her daughter's behavior within the confines of the home. The mother "would yield without question to husband or son occupying the same position, debates Rose's every movement simply because she is a girl."(266) We read about suppression of race and gender, but the suppression from within the structure of a girl's life can dictate a life of inadequacy. Our socialization and placement in the world is influenced by school, government, friends and most importantly family. The family instills values and beliefs and is the most enduring agent in the life of a child. If this type of suppression exists within the family, what can be expected of a child as an adult?--LisaM <br />
<br />
I think Lisa makes a good point about what can be expected of a child as an adult. I know my mother struggles with having her mom live with her right now. My grandma was raised that women stay home, do housework, raise children, and have a 'man' provide for them. Every day mom comes home tired and wore out (its been stressful at work lately) and my grandmother gets on her case about laundry, dishes, vacuming, and the like the moment she walks in, but says nothing to my father who helps my mom out with housework all the time. She fights with mom but when dad says something she shuts up and leaves mom alone. Its almost like I watch and live in this time setting because she also does it to me when I'm visiting my parents --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
In continuation of the discussion on Harriet Brunkhurst's article, I feel that the constrictions of women's lives from within the family can still be seen today. Although less explicitly obvious I still feel that the expectations to adhere to domestic sphere are very strong. There is still an understanding in our culture that a woman is in charge of the home. Today, when a male takes on domestic chores he is not necessarily seen as less male, but when a female does not keep a clean room or home she is blamed and suffers the burden of conforming to the domestic ideals still implicit. I don't think that women have yet been freed from the guilt of not following the social norm. Unfortunately, as Brunkhurst's article demonstrates, for the most part it is the female relatives placing the burden upon young women. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
As a man in what I feel is a very egalitarian marriage, I can second Meredith's post above completely! My mother-in-law was a traditional stay at home mom who raised two daughters, 10 years apart in age. She raised the daughters, kept an immaculate and spotless house (still does now), and made sure the home was a "refuge" for her husband who was a Philadelphia police officer. When my in-laws come down on occasion, she doesn't understand when my wife is not flying around the house picking stuff up. She'll sometimes chide my wife when she sees me vacuuming the house or doing laundry. Despite the fact that we both work full time, her mom's expectation is that Debbie should be keeping house most of the time as well. She really does not comprehend that the "second shift" at home, with a houseful of kids, is a two person deal. To be honest, I probably still only do about 30 percent to my wife's 70 percent of the domestic stuff - not that I'm complaining! - Phil N.<br />
<br />
== Comparisons ==<br />
<br />
<br />
It is interesting to compare Modern American Women: “The Harsh Conditions of Domestic Service” with how Fannie Williams describes the “Problem of Employment for Negro Women in Major Problems. Both of these sources describe working conditions for African American women. The first source discusses the role of the “nurse” in the household. The nurse however is responsible for much more than caring for the health of children and family, she is asked to carry out household tasks as well. It is almost as if slavery is continued by the need and difficulty of African American women to find work. The second source points out specifically that, African American women are more commonly employed to domestic service. She seems to take a different spin out however by suggesting that if you can’t be employed to a more honorable position, then make the position you can work more honorable. The question then becomes, what makes a position honorable? And how can you elevate a position if you have no control over the pay, benefits, or job description? --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
How was sexual harassment handled during the early 20th century? I mean there are accounts of needing witnesses and having detectives, but it all seems a bit informal. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Like Justin, I am curious how sexual harassment was handled. It seemed that many males got away with sexual harassing females because the females did not want to lose their job. Did this occur often? Did many of the harassers get dealt with? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
The readings in MP and MAW both discuss how difficult the lives of working women were, for every type of women. The immagrants were over worked and underpaid as well as black women, but they had to fight even harder to find a job, and then there were the white women who worked in department stores who ended up selling themselves to make ends meet. What was interesting about the department store essay was how none of the women referred to what they did after hours as prostiting. I assume this is because they were possibly ashamed of what they were doing and trying to make it sound like something its not. It was more than just going out to the theatre or dinner. Also surprisingly enough these girls were very young as well as the men they were intertaining seemed to be married most of the time. This was easy money for them which seemed to be why it was so appealing.<br />
--Michelle Mardeusz<br />
<br />
I found Fannie Barrier Williams thoughts on the “problem of Employments for Negro Women” to be particularly interesting because rather then focusing on domestic servitude as wearing women down (all the essays in MAW did), she actually thought that it ALSO created girls with “more than ordinary strength of character.” She evens calls upon black women to raise the status of servant women. It is like she encourages women to take this job and then actively work to elevate the status of the occupation. However, it seems to focus a lot on the job as other people in society view it…. which is a very middle class America concern. – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
== Judy Yung, “Unbound Feet: Chinese Women in the Public Sphere" ==<br />
<br />
<br />
I was amazed by the large role that the YWCA played in the liberation of Chinese women. From what I read, I think that they were more liberated than white women. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Like Justin I was surprised how the YWCA played such an important role. These women were isolated and this organization pulled them from their closets. It is amazing how customs shaped the Chinese woman's life experience. In "Unbound Feet" it states, "it was considered immodest to be seen too many times during the year."(263) Chinese women were made invisible by their culture. The idea of seeing a friend only on a special occasion, which was not due to distance, or the need to travel in a closed coach for short distances is suffocating. The YWCA recognized this and offered an opportunity that allowed women of similar backgrounds to meet and receive assistance outside their homes, but the most important contribution the YWCA gave these women was power. The power to meet, to decide and to change their lives in a way that they could now participate in it.--LisaM<br />
<br />
I find it kind of interesting how the political events taking place in China had a big effect on the way Chinese people in Ameica lived. I admire how the women in Chinese in America helped the Revoultionary cause back in the homeland and helped liberize the women both here in America and in China by allowing them to unbind their feet, go out in public and learn to read and be educated and become independent from men.- Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
I found it intriguiing while reading Judy Yung's essay in Unequal Sisters that the protestant church was the first to encourage chinese women and that the Chinese women's involvement with church activities helped to expand their gender roles. I knew foot binding has ended, but its always nice to read about something that ended that I felt was cruel. I also found it interesting that to support the revolution, women in China did various activities such as enlisting in the army and engaging in dangerous uncover work. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
"Unbound Feet" doesn't go in depth on the foot binding issue. Based upon what I have read the process of foot binding was painful and and caused physical problems later in life, but what struck me was that there was a stigma attached to it. Foot binding made a woman more desirable, which makes them marriage worthy. I read one account where a potential mother-in-law checked the feet of the potential bride. If she had not been foot bound, the marriage was not approved by the family. Mothers performed this painful procedure, which began around the age of 4, on their daughters. Can you imagine putting a child in pain to conform to the norms within the culture.--LisaM<br />
<br />
I agree with Lisa, I can't imagine putting a child that young through that much pain only to conform to the norms of the culture! It's interesting that the women, who know the pain that the foot binding causes, were the ones to bind the feet of the young girls. I think that it just shows how much women get caught up in the gender roles and norms of a given culture. --Katie Nelson<br />
<br />
<br />
In Judy Yung's essay she says that black and Chinese women modeled their clubs after the white womens, but they formed these clubs because they were not allowed in the white womens, so why model it after them because after all each had different motives? This also brings me to another question which I'm not sure even deals with this just yet during this time, but the question of segregation. Everything was segregated into black and white like schools, theatres, and restrooms, so where does that leave people like the Chinese?<br />
--Michelle Mardeusz<br />
<br />
In response to Michelle, I think the reason they modeled their clubs after the white women because they wanted to be accepted into that culture. Even though they had different motives they wanted acceptance as well. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
I was impressed by the amount Chinese women were in the public sphere. I feel that if they had a larger population and an earlier start they could have surpassed the efforts of white women. I was surprised that the church was one of the main organizations that helped these women enter the public sphere. I would have thought that the church would have tried to keep women in traditional roles. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
I was also surprised by the role that the church played in bringing the Chinese women into the public sphere. Although, I think that the church's main effort may have been to simply Americanize the Chinese women, and maybe they realized that they had to get them out of the house in order to do that. In that sense, maybe bringing them into the public sphere and beginning to change the gender norms was an afterthought rather than the primary motivation. --Katie Nelson<br />
<br />
It seems as if the Chinese women first had to break through their own incredibly repressive culture, only to enter into what is a comparibly better but still repressive American Culture. Not only did these women face gender discrimination from men, racial discrimination from the other ethnic groups, but they were discriminated against in amazingly archaic ways by their own people (foot-binding,not leaving the home save for once a year, etc.). Despite the prejudices imposed on the Chinese by Americans, the lifting of their own cultural restraints after the Chinese revolution must have been a wonderful and exciting experience for the women. --Landon Davis<br />
<br />
In the chapter “Unbound Feet: Chinese Women in the Public Sphere,” Chinese women had different views on why they should create clubs. The values they wanted to help in their clubs were support for education, socioeconomic mobility, and community improvement. The group of people who encouraged the Chinese women to organize the activities was the Protestant churches. Out of all the religions why did the Protestants support the Chinese women? –Ashley Scutari<br />
<br />
<br />
I found this particular reading very interesting. In a way I saw a connection between all of the movements that women made into society. Most, if not all, women of all races appear to have been able to push themselves further into the public sphere because of the activities that they became involved in through churches. This appears to be no different in the case of Chinese American women. Judy Yung specifically mentions how they were able to expand their roles in society due to church groups and that being involved allowed them to leave their homes. I find this connection very important in seeing connections between various races. - Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
== The Burdens of Rural Woman's Lives ==<br />
<br />
I found it interesting to read in "The Burdens of Rural Woman's Lives" that the husband stayed home during the Civil War after being drafted by paying $300. It seemed to be a parallel to more recent wars like the Vietnam War. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Kind of going off of Justin's comment, I was actually curious about the farm woman's husban in "The Burden's of Rural Woman's Lives." Was it common for men to pay the $300 and get out of service? Or was this something only the wealthier could get away with? I ask this question mostly because everything I've learned about the Civil War indicated that there were soldiers needed on the battlefields and by reading about this family, they didn't seem like they had all that much money. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
I also found interesting in "the burden of rural womens lives" the fact that this womoan not only never complained, but almost was bragging at points about how hard her work was but how easily she seemed to accomplish it. She talked about how many articles she was able to read while churning butter, the record amounts of wood or other goods she would stack and produce, and how at 58 she could easily walk a mile as fast as anyone else. She never complained even when mentioning that only 5 of her 8 children were still alive. Her son was attending Cornell, but she seemed most proud of the fact that she has survived such a hard life. I take my hat off to her. - Landon Davis<br />
<br />
<br />
== Buffalobird Woman's Story ==<br />
<br />
The article I really took interest in was ''Buffalobird Woman's Story''. I know that in Native American societies women were the oweners of the land they were in charge of agricultural practices. This had been going on for hundreds and hundreds of years, and the fact that the government comes in a just changes everything really bothers me. They give them all these crops to plant when they don't even eat them and a lot of the crops are left in the ground. In reality the nation was just wasting their money providing seeds and showing them new planting techniques. I find it funny that in the end the women states that her old ways are more efficient then the new ways. She even proves this by winning a prize for her corn because she grew it the way she knew. What I am so confused about is why the government had to control how they grew their crops? Why waste time even worrying about what they are growing and how? Is it really that important of an issue? -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
I agree with Amanda it seems like the government came in and told the Indians how and what to grow, but didnt teach them anything past that. The article talks about how the Indians did not like the way the food tasted or how it would spoil after a while. If the government was going to take the time to show the Indians how to produce the new foods, why not teach them how to perserve the new foods, or even cook and season them, so that the food was edible. It looks like the gov't only gave the Indians half of the knowledge they needed to make the new foods work. And if the Indians were happy beofre why even change it up in the first place? - Landon Davis<br />
<br />
<br />
== Rose Cohen Describes Her First Job in New York City, 1892 ==<br />
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''Rose Cohen Describes Her First Job in New York City, 1892''really upset me. Number one the fact that this factory employer intentionally took advantage of the fact that she was young she was taken care of. It also really bothered me when her father pointed out to her that she was being employed weekly so she couldn't get paid more. I don't understand why the father would ever be fine with something like that. She is working just as hard as him to make money so the rest of the family could come to New York. The part that upset me the most is when she talked about how on her walks home she would pretend that she was coming home to her family and a warm meal. The last line" I used to keep this up until I turned the key in the door and opened it and stood facing the dark, cold, silent room." which makes me question, why even bother going through all this? Wouldn't it be better for the family to be together? Even if things were bad at least they would have each other. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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Like Amanda, I had a hard time getting through "Rose Cohen Describes Her First Job in New York City, 1892," because it was such a depressing piece. Listening to her little voice describe how terrible her life was and how horribly her father was about her situation just upset me a lot. The paragraph about her imaginary family was so heart wrenching I couldn't help but want that for her. To come home to an cold, lonely, empty house must have been terrible, especially at her age. I could never imaging going through something like that. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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In response to Amanda, I also found this story very touching but I feel like you can see her desire to have her whole family together again. Her logic seems to be that if she could put up with the horrible treatment just a little longer she would then be able to be around her mother and the children again despite the hardships. I think she would agree that it would be better for the family to be together, which is why she pushes through the difficulties. At the same time, I don't fully agree why the father and Rose left the family instead of her father and someone else.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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Well, I never actually realized that the poor treatment of immigrant women really happened. I have heard and ready stories, but these primary documents we had to read for today opened my eyes that the horrific treatment towards women was the NORM NOT THE EXCEPTION. Rose accepted this arrangement as she knew that if she left her job her family would suffer. Also, she was replaceable, if she left some other young girl would take her place. It seems that so many immigrants are after the American Dream, they will endure just about anything to get it.<br />
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== Others ==<br />
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I was impressed by how well written some of the pieces were in the MAW reading. Obviously I am not referring to the writings to the Chicago based DEFENDER, but the two letters to the Jewish Forward, and the article "Harsh Conditions of Domestic Servitude" were both intelligent well worded essays. This points out to me the wasted potential of what must have been thousands upon thousands of women during this time period. They were reduced to factory, shopgirl, or domestic work, when they were clearly educated enough to make a real contribution to society. - Landon Davis <br />
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I thought Agnes Nester's piece, "The Story of a Glove Maker," explained very well the way women and young girls were treated in factories. The fact that they had clocks, not so they knew when to leave, but to calculate how much time they had lost is truly disheartening. It was unfair of the factory owners to take advantage of them and deduct pay because their machine broke. It just bothers me that things that were out of control were penalties to them. Walking around waiting for the beltboy to come and fix your sewing machine should not mean you lose pay. But I suppose that since women were considered such cheap labor and since the factory owners were skimping on that much, why should we expect them to have functioning machinery too? -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I found the journal "The Harsh Conditions of Domestic Service" in MAW to be an eye opener. Reading about the negro woman and her daily taks including 14-16 hours of work with nursing children not hers as one of them to be insane. She was the main caretaker of these children with restricted visitation of her own.. seriously!? What got to me was the quote "I live a treadmill life; and I see my own children onl when they happen to see me on the streets when I am out with the children, or when my children come to the 'yard' to see me." -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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I also thought the quote by Frances Willard to be incredibly true with her parallels to life and bicycles. "I always felt a strong attraction toward the bicycle, because it is the vehicle of so much harmless pleasure, and because the skill required in handling it obliges those who mount to keep clear heads and steady hands." I'm sure it was hard to keep a clear head when some of the work these women were doing wouldn't allow them to see their family. -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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I found the quote by Francis Willard as she learned to ride a bicycle to be quite meaningful as well. It was a vehicle that forced women for a brief moment to concentrate on their own thoughts rather than what their husband or children or parents needed of them. It was a moment in which a woman could prove to herself her own strength and experience a physical freedom. Quite symbolic of breaking free of many of society's constraints.-- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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In "The Story of a Glove Maker", it amazed me how hard these women worked and also how they had to pay out their own money to do their job like paying 50 cents a week for the use of power to run the machines!! That is insane. How did anyone make enough money to live on when they are charged just to use the sewing machines?~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
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I thought it was interesting reading about the women who wrote to the Jewish Daily Forward. The story of the young girl who lost her fiancee in the triangle shop fire. I felt so sorry for her. She was all alone in a new country and the advice she gets is "what the earth covers must be forgotten." (65) It would be hard for anyone to get over what she went through and I know it had been four years since the event but the advice still seems harsh to me.~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
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In "The Harsh Conditions of Domestic Service", I was curious about the "service pan", the essay stated that it was left over food that the cook would "dispose" of. Was the cook dividing it up among her neighbors? How much left overs did they have? Was it just a once a week thing since the writer said she could only go home once every 2 weeks or could cooks go home more often than the nurse could?~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
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I found it interesting in the document of “Female Perspective on the Great migration” that over 500,000 blacks left the south between 1916 and 1919, then over a million by the 1920’s. This movement was called the “push and pull aspects of migration.” A lot of blacks pushed out of the South because there weren’t any new advancements and the pull was the new opportunities that lied ahead. With the African American women moving up to the North for work, how much did that really affect the jobs of immigrant women? Was it a huge effect or a little because immigrants usually worked for lower wage?<br />
-Ashley Scutari<br />
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A couple of the accounts of domestic servitude in Modern American Women talk about having only “oral contracts.” Why is this? I thought by the late 19th Century people would hold written contracts. When I first read that I thought that oral contracts might be a positive thing for the servants because they could walk away from them with out series legal repercussions, but the more I think about it… maybe an oral contract is worse? In an oral contract the terms can change whenever the employer wants and the servant can’t really just walk away from it because they don’t have the money and resource to go anywhere else. Perhaps oral contracts were just another way to keep lower class (often black) women oppressed. – Cat Debelius<br />
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To what extent was the North actually the “promise land” that poor southern black women thought it to be? It seems that domestic service was widespread, form South to North. – Cat Debelius<br />
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The various stories about the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire were all very heartbreaking, especially the one where the girl lost her fiance'. Let's face it, factory life for men and women in the late 19th and early 20th centuries was a hellish existence in most cases. However, one would have to acknowledge that it was in many cases worse for women due to their lack of power at that time. They were more easily exploited than men; thus leading to all-female industries and factories in which men were the bosses and foremans and women were the production workers. - Phil N.<br />
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Yet again I found that the articles in MAW moved me more than any other articles. In particular "WOrking Women Write the Jewish Daily Forward" got to me. The first story made me angry because of the horrible treatment that she had to endure because of her need for the job. I don't know if I would have been able to continue working in an area where the boss made unwelcome sexual advances. But even more so the 2nd story about the young girl whose bridegroom was killed in the Triangle Factory Fire touched me. Not only did she loose her love and have to deal with another man's advances, but she lost him when he went in to save others. He had been safe but then put himself back into danger. This document just showed how hard these girls actually had it. -Elizabeth Frank</div>NLWhttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_4_Questions/Comments328--Week 4 Questions/Comments2008-02-07T12:59:58Z<p>NLW: </p>
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<div>While reading the primary source documents of the ''Modern American Women'' I found it a bit disconcerting that the women were so similar to the women of today. It is kind of a shame that history repeats itself so fully. I suppose it is evidence that change is gradual and more of an evolution. --Justin Mattos<br />
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I agree with Justin. The women in those readings were so similar to today's women. I would have hoped that women of today have come a long way from their fight for equality. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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Although it was an interesting study, Linda Gordon's study "Black and White Visions of Welfare: Women's Welfare Activism, 1890-1945" came very close to simply listing the differences between the two races of activists. Her conclusions did not seem to have a lot of depth. --Justin Mattos<br />
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I have to agree with Justin Mattos on his comment about Linda Gordon's essay. I too felt that that she really just listed the differences and similarities without any real conclusion. However, I do believe to have a better sense of what was happening, it is good to know that just because welfare groups existed, they didn't all go after the same things. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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It does seem like she just listed the differences between the two groups of reformers, however once I saw the tables in the back I was impressed. Until I saw those tables it hadnt sunk in that Gordon actually went back and found real women activist and studied them. Maybe I am just not used to studying history but I thought that was pretty cool. After i saw those tables with the lists of actual women activists I looked at the reading in a whole different light. - Landon Davis<br />
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I think it was difficult to follow along with Gordon's essay, it did not flow. The chart in the back did help it all make since. -- Nikole Wellman <br />
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I also observed in the primary source documents of ''Modern American Women'' that the stereotypes of women have only changed slightly today. Women are still thought to be more fragile than men, and there is still a need to protect them from harm. It has only been within the last decade that the idea of a working women has gained mainstream acceptance. I wonder if this observation stems from the fact that the primary source documents that I read were from the perspective of educated women. --Justin Mattos<br />
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I think so...I think the same would be true today. Educated womens perspectives will be different from non educated women.<br />
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Chapter 14 of Unequal Sisters deals with the differences in welfare activism between African American and white women. Gordon points out that white women had more of an ability to work politically and seek donations from those who would be more able to help (i.e. congressional representatives or other political figures) while the African American women focused their activities around the community and church. She continues, to point out that white women activists focused more on charity and relief while black women sought to provide for more universal needs such as education and health. If there were poor or unfortunate people in both groups (black and white), why is it that white women activists focused on particular people while black women activists focused on reform that is more general? Did societal norms during this time make it more inappropriate to provide individual charity to black women? --Jessica Kilday<br />
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I found it interesting to read “Speaking out Against Lynching” by Ida B. Wells. She discusses the harsh punishments that African Americans were subjected to due to the stereotypes that white men and women held. On p age 15 she states, “With the Southern white man, any misalliance existing between a white woman and a colored man is a sufficient foundation for the charge of rape. The southern white man says that it is impossible for a voluntary alliance to exist between a white woman and a colored man, and therefore, the fact of an alliance is a proof of force.” Given this, would it also be considered rape if it were a black woman and a white man? Moreover, who would be at fault, would it be the man forcing himself onto the woman, or the woman because she is black? --Jessica Kilday<br />
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I also thought the reading by Wells was interesting. She only discusses the accusations that black men were raping white women. She never mentions black women being raped. Was it just something that they didn't talk about or something that they just took as a fact of life during those times? I thought it interesting that discussing how black men were falsely accused of rape and lynched even when it was well known at the time that it was a concentual relationship, but then went on to say that even when the white man left for war he left the white women to be protected by the black men. So why all of a sudden is the lynching of black men on the rise? Was it because now they were free and more like competition to the whites than they had been before?~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
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In response to Mary Beth, I do think that to some extent the lynching of black was due to competition, but also due to fear. Before the African Americans were free, white men had never considered them to be a threat. When they left home they trusted that they would return with their home and family in the same state. It never crossed their minds that it would be possible for their family to be in danger because there had never been any reason to mistrust. Wells states on page 15 that "the world has accepted the story that the Negro is a monster which the Southern white man has painted him." With this image that is created, when the African Americans are free, the white men thus see it as the release of "a monster" and they no longer feel safe and trustworthy as they did before, when "the monster" was contained. --Jessica Kilday<br />
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To add on to the discussion so far about the "speaking out against lynching" i also agree that to a certain extent accusing black men of rape was a form of taking blacks out of the workforce competition. As one part of the article says, whites started looking upong blacks as a threat once they saw that they were starting to become educated and acquire money. To me, this is further emphasized by the fact that it wasn't until several generations that whites started making these great rape accusiations against blacks that raises a red flag in my mind as to the purpose of these accusations. - Emely Amaya<br />
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I also found the reading on Wells interesting. In response to Mary Beth's point about the black women not officially being raped I believe it has some background in the idea that black women were naturally more passionate (less pure) than white women and therefore couldn't be raped because they would still be willing to have that relationship. I also agree with Jessica in that i think the lynching increased because there was a greater amount of fear now about the black community being free and the white community felt the need to use fear to control them. Likewise, in the South (where lynching was common) it might have been a way for the white community to maintain control and limit the amount of change that took place despite slavery being over. - Elizabeth Frank<br />
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In response to Jessica's question, I think that white women were able to focus more on specific groups, because unlike black women, white women just had to focus on issues of sexual inequality whereas black women had the issues of sexual AND racial inequality going against them, as well as establishing themselves in a newly free world. Chapter 14 of Unequal Sister does highlight that the two major focus point for black women groups was education and health care. These were issues that obviously had to be taken care of after slavery because the whites weren't going to provide it fully for them (yes, a lot of groups DID help) but they knew they had to rely on themselves(as the article shows) to fully develop and not remain stagnant and looked down upon by the white community.- Emely Amaya.<br />
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I also found in interesting in Gordon's piece on Welfare that she notes one specific difference. She states that the white groups that were looking for reform were looking at people "other" than themselves. They saw themselves as helping people less fortunate than themselves but still with a "moral" aspect between who was the "worthy and the unworthy poor" (pg 225). In contrast the black groups focused on middle class and poor blacks. The black groups also focused more on education and health instead of charitys like the whites. ~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
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After reading ''Modern American Women'' I do agree with my classmates on how the perception of women has not changed drastically. It is now socially acceptable for a women to go off into the business world and make a name for herself. Even jobs such a teacher and a nurse that were considered women's work are still dominated today by women. Since I am an education major I go into a lot of elementary schools and the staff is female dominated. I think it is wrong that today where anyone can be anything, people still stereotype jobs and classify things as mens work or females work. This eve goes beyond the adults of the nation. We start these stereotypes early in children's lives. I have always remembered when I was younger and would go to Mc Donalds they would ask "would you like a girl toy or a boy toy?" Sometimes yeah I wanted the princess toy but other times I also wanted the hot wheels car. It is so disturbing to know that we are still dealing with this issue. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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After reading the article on Women's welfare activism,I too felt that she really just listed the differences and similarities without any real conclusion.However on the second page of the article, it talks about the differences of how white and black women were raising money. It says oh of course women raise money but they were also so busy attending White House conferences and correspondence with Supreme Court Justices and the black women it just states they organized bake sales, rummage sales and church dinners. I guess after reading this my biggest pet peeve is that yes white women did have more power in society. However, its not like there were no black women doing the same things. I just don't like how these women are talked down, for what they had their time was just as well spent as a white women. This really just made me feel that white women were more interested in their social lives or making them selves look better and black women worked as a team, they worked for the well being of everyone. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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While reading Chapter 14, I began to think about the possibly that the difference between the perspective of white women and black women on the poor that they helped was a matter of progression or evolution. As the black women received more power, it seemed that they became more like the white women and began to explicitly look down on the poorer black social classes. I saw this occurrence when the author talked about the views of the black poor by educated black women being the same as white women.--Justin Mattos<br />
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While reading MAW, I came across an exert from Ida B. Wells, which in truth makes sense, but I didn't expect to see exert from something I have read in the past. There piece of the article here touched me almost as much as it touched me then. The black women were not treated equally in any light, and were not considered to be able to be 'raped' because they were not pure and pious like the white women. Part of that comes through in the last paragraph of the exert. It makes me mad to think that people once thought like this, but what is even more scary is some people still do. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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After reading a bit more in the Modern American Women book, I find myself getting emotionally involved with the information presented. I felt anger towards the father who was treating his daughter like a sack of trash in "An immigrant Daughter Awakens to the Possibilities of the New World." I felt heartbroke when he slapped her because she was leaving. At the same time I know this happened a lot towards women... and it breaks my heart to know what some women had to go through. I've been lucky to have a father who was supportive in everything I chose and only opposed my decisions when they were bad decisions. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I agree with Ashley. I also felt angry towards the father in "An immigrant Daughter Awakens to the Possibilities of the New World." But what I also thought was sad and telling from this piece was how the mother quietly gave the money to the daughter so that she could get away and start over fresh. We all know that parents want a better life for their children than they had themselves. I think that this is a perfect example of a mother wanting her daughter to have a better life than she herself had--almost as though she is hoping that she can live vicariously through her daughter's freedom. --Katie Nelson<br />
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I completely agree with Ashley since I was also touched by some of the readings in Modern American Women. I also was upset at the way the young girl was treated by her father in "An Immigrant Daughter Awakens to the Possibilities of the New World". I always knew parents treated their daughters in such a harsh way at times, but it was very hard to see how harshly she was treated. I have to say if I was in her position I also would have left home. Though I did enjoy how she points out that she got in so much trouble for taking the girls word that they would get the 2 cents she owed when she says her dad had given away a lot more merchandise without any payment at all. - Elizabeth Frank<br />
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Bertha Palmer's speech at the opening of the Women's Building was so progressive except for the part where she says: "It willing acknowledges that the industries, arts, and commerce of the world have been for centuries in the hands of men who have carefully trained themselves for the responsibilities devolving upon them, and who have, consequently, without question, contributed vastly more than women to the valuable thought, research, invention, science, art and literature, which have become the rich heritage of the human race." Does she actually believe this? Or is she catering to what the public will most except in order to support her movement? - Cat Debelius<br />
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I found Anzia Yeziercka's (Immigrant Daughter) story very interesting as far as the existance of two worlds (old/new) for young immigrant women. I feel like today American woman still struggle with existing in between the Old and the New world. It is amazing how sometimes problems never get solved they just evolve. - Cat Debelius<br />
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Mary Harris seemed incredible against the predominant constructs of gender and the entire system of change in America. Clearly she has struggled greatly in her lifetime and criticized women's methods of change... yet she seems to offer now feasibly alternative route. - Cat Debelius<br />
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The difference between the white activism and the black activism discussed in Unequal Sisters was not very surprising to me. I figured that since black women were also fighting for civil rights their fight would be stronger. They seemed to have the largest networks of people working toward the cause. They held fundraising fuctions to help raise the money needed to fund their programs. It is easy to understand how these women bonded in the way that they did. The bond that these women grew amongst themselves was largely due to the having to rely on eachother so much. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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I agree with Kellye about how it wasn't surprising about the differences between black and white activism. The black women had so much more to fight for, and not only that but how education was their most important area of activism instead of voting like for the white women.-- Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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I was impressed with the vast number of organizations that were formed as a result of the fundraising efforts of activist women. I was even more shocked to find the cost of maintaining these organizations and that these women were able to raise the money needed. ---Kellye Sorber<br />
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I thought it was very interesting to learn how educated these women were. I knew some women were getting degrees but not this many and not African Americans. I also thought it was interesting to see how important, influential, or rich the parents of these women were even the African American women had wealthy parents. -- Christine Wuebker<br />
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Another thing I found intersting was the view these women had about the role of women. I would have thought that since these women were out in the work force trying to bring about change they would have supported other women in the work place but they don't. It also was a surprise to learn about how many of the women were single, divorced, widowed, married, or living with a "partner." The interacting and sense of community created amoung these women is amazing. -- Christine Wuebker<br />
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It surprises me that black women started to develop social classes just as the white women. Black women who started to gain power, like the power whites had, these black women started to treat the poor and less fortunate black women like a low class. This really bothers me because after everything these women have been through you would except them to try to help each other out, but instead they forget about them and treat them as peasants. What my question is, are these higher powered black women doing this because they are trying to be whiter? Do they care more about upper class societies views on them? -- Amanda Taub<br />
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I was also surprised on how the black women started a social class just like the white women, but to try and answer your question(s) Amanda, I don't think they were trying to be whiter but maybe instead were so tired of the white social class they were instead competing now against them on what race was better as well as trying to gain the much wanted respect from white society they have wanted for so long. --Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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Kind of going off of what both Amanda and Michelle said, I think we have to keep in mind that there was a social ideal that all women had to try to live up to. The domestic of separate spheres was still alive and well and I feel like some black women felt that they had to adhere to that doctrine in order to make some headway in the world. Now, I'm not saying that's how all black women felt or acted, but I'm sure it played some sort of part. But what upsets me the most, and it's talked about in Anna Cooper's piece, "Black Women Plan to Lead Their Race," is that black women were subjected to the bottom of the social hierarchy on two accounts: race AND gender. No matter which way they tried to advance, they always had someone trying to hold them back. -Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I agree with Cat and the Anzia Yeziercka's (Immigrant Daughter)piece. Women are stuck dealing with the old and the new world. The problem with todays society is that only some people truly believe in the modern day women however, a good amount of people are so stuck in the past. Its not fair how women have to fight for so much when people need to stop living in the past. --Amanda Taub<br />
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Along with many other posts about the emotional involvement MAW commands of its readers, I found that "Margaret Sanger's Epiphany over Birth Control" opened my eyes to the desperate and difficult position of being a women with no control over her own body. Still today there are few practical birth control methods for the women that need it most. The pill and other hormonal methods are not cheap and condoms primarily place responsiblity on the male partner. It was heart-breaking to hear "a baby born dead, great relief - the death of an older child, sorrow but again relief" (86) as it must have been for Sanger. Sanger was not on a crusade to put a stop to child birth or to change the understanding that sex was for procreation, but rather to bring peace of mind to the women that so desperatly needed it. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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I completely agree with Meredith's statements about birth control and the fact that a woman had no control over her own body. Even today, although many forms of birth control are much more readily available to prevent pregnancy, women still do not have complete control over their bodies due to the regulation of abortion under Roe v. Wade. -Marilyn<br />
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I also was very touched by "Margaret Sanger's Epiphany over Birth Control". I knew that women had been attempting ways to control the number of children they had for a very long time but I had no idea that someone could self induce an abortion (especially since i really don't know how that works). I also found it so shocking that even married women didn't want to put faith in their husbands desire not to have any more children even though it would reduce the stress on his life and make paying bills easier. I would have thought they would also be glad to have less children to take care of. -Elizabeth Frank<br />
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In response to your comment Elizabeth, I'm not so sure it was the fact that they would have less children to take care of so much as the women would be in control of their own bodies and be making family altering decisions. Women were supposed to obey their husbands and if they took a stand and decided that they were going to prevent their family from increasing, then the husband would, in essence, lose a bit of power over his wife. I think that was what terrified them more than anything else. Some men actually were thrilled that their wives were looking into birth control. -Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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After taking History of Sexuality last semester and discussing Margaret Sanger I was not at all surprised with the "Margaret Sanger's Epihany over Birth Control." It was and still is hard to be a women when it comes to birth control. Women today are far better off than the women of Margaret Sanger's time. It is so much easier for women to obtain birth control today then ever before. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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I was very suprised to learn when reading Edith Eudora Ammons' piece about life as a female homesteader that women were more successful in staying with their claims by 6%. As she recalled being driven further and further into the unsettled land I can only imagine how disconnecting and daunting that ride must have been. The Ammons sister's hard work is clear proof of a way in which American women were able to take a different route and break the social expectations. After reading about the women who went west with their husbands or in order to find a husband in the past weeks, it was very uplifting to read about the other opportunities the west had for women. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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I thought "Wages for Housework" was the best essay, it made me laugh. I thought it was very interesting on how she capitalized certain sentences in order to show her frustration and to get her point across. I also thought this essay sounded very much like a modern day women and her frustration with being a house wife and how it is not looked at as being a job, because a lot more than just cleaning and cooking goes into taking care of a house and family. --Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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In Nellie Bly's essay she says, "I had such a strong belief in the world's greeting me as I greeted it, that I refused to arm myself. I knew if my conduct was proper I should always find men ready to protect me,..." (pg6-7) She is amazing in the fact that she was going to attempt to fly around the world and the fact that she was a women was going to make this awesome, but in this quote she seems completely oblivious to the real world, and that not everyone you meet is going to like you, aswell as thinking any man would be willing to protect her. Its like she ready to be considered equal to man by doing this great thing but yet still depend on them for protection. --Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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Gordon's essay in US as Kellye mentions as well as I have responded to her comment above about not being suprised about the differences in white and black women activism, but my question is why could women in general, black and white just come together and be the first ones to over look race and fight the cause of womens rights together? I think if they could have done that would of had a more dominate impact in getting what and where they wanted to be.--Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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was also very surprised by Edith Eudora Ammon's piece, but mainly that while they met some resistance in their journey west, they did not seem to get mistreated nearly has much as I would have expected. I would have thought that as two women going west to homestead they would have gotten scoffed at yet I don't recall this being mentioned in the recounting. Is this because it didn't happen or because they chose to ignore it?- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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In the Unequal Sisters reading by Linda Gordon I found very interesting the concept of social motherhood among the black women's welfare reform groups. These women were mostly single and were not biological mothers yet the main issues they focused on were familial in nature. I do not necessarily think that this indicates the selfless mindset of these women, but rather points to how strongly the doctrine of seperate spheres and the middle classs status quo, affected everyones' decisions during this time period. - Landon Davis<br />
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Another point worth mentioning from Gordon's essay was how incredibly interdependent these women were on each other. Ths interdependnce born out of necessity to survive eventually evolved into a powerful social and even political network. Some of these women's groups had real political power; distributing tax money etc. However, for a woman to be truly powerful within these groups she had to have connections to a powerful man, her husband, or father usually as is the case with Brandeis and Beyer. --- Landon Davis<br />
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The speech by Palmer in Modern American Women brought up an excellent point. This was the point that most of the people in power equate life for everyone to what their own life is like. So to the men in power at the time, opening the workforce up to women seemed unnatural, dangerous, and threatening. However, this was because they were thinking about their own wives and daughters entering the workforce, which neither the men or most likely the women would have wanted, seeing as they come from upper class families. However, to the less fortunate, opening the workforce ot women was essential. These women needed to work in order to survive, alot of them did not have husbands who could or would support them. I think that this is still a mistake we all make today, not just the politicians, we fail to put ourselves in other peoples' shoes. - Landon Davis<br />
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In reading "The Fair Women, Chicago, 1893" in Modern American Women, I found it interesting how Bertha Palmer is obviously struggling with the conflict between the idealized woman and the reality that many women face. At one point she says that it is the board's "belief that every woman, who is presiding over a happy home, is fulfilling her highest and truest function, and could not be lured from it by temptations offered by factories or studios." And then a few sentences later she talks about how it is only the favored class that can live in these conditions and that the majority of women are living under much poorer conditions. In a way, it seems as though she is still holding those ideals of women, but recognizing that most women cannot live up to them. I guess I'm just wondering how that differs from the rest of the people who simply hold those ideals, and is it even any better to recognize that the majority of women can't live up to the ideals but still hold them anyways? --Katie Nelson<br />
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In reading "Speaking Out Against Lynching" in Modern American Women, the thing that struck me most is the obvious double standard that exists between sexual relations that happen between a black man and a white woman in comparison to those that exist between a white man and a black woman. I know that I may be looking at this from a present perspective, but it just strikes me that it is considered rape for a black man to have sex with a white woman, but nothing is said when a white man has sex with a black woman (which happened very often). I think that this double standard brings up issues with both race and gender. It brings up issues with gender because it indicates that white women are incapable of consenting to sexual interactions with a black man (but men can consent to sexual relations with a black woman). And it brings up issues of race because of the differential treatment between the races, and thinking about the likeliness that black women have of being raped. --Katie Nelson<br />
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I also thought "Wages for Housework" was a clever and humorous article. Conger-Kaneko seemed to denounce traditional women use her writing style. I thought it was very interesting, though not valid in every case, that she compared women's roles to those of slaves. I would imagine this would be a very persuasive arguement to move women towards equal rights after being compared to the slaves who had been freed for decades. I cannot imagine how women seeking to stay in their tradtional roles would argue against Conger-Kaneko's points? Although I imagine they were probably not interested in reading Progressive Woman. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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After having read some of the above comments about Ida B. Wells' essay, I thought more about her argument and the social and political climate during the time of lynching. I do agree with Jessica that it was somewhat out of fear because the black men were no longer under the control of the white masters. Lynching was one of the ways they could exhibit their control over this sector of society. It obviously didn't have to do with whether black men were actually raping white women; for white men, it was about controlling that sector of society. In response to Mary Beth's comment about Wells' essay, the viewpoint of many white Southern men was not that they were raping black women. It was only their superiority over the inferior race, black women being the most inferior because they were black and women. --Kendall Haring<br />
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The discussion about moving up by way of housework and domestic services was brought up in the readings, and I believe that it ties in very well with what we've learned about in class. You can see the same sort of thing happening with the end of the Civil War, and clerical work. Like we discussed, women took clerical positions while men were away fighting, but soon after the war ended, those who kept their jobs soon learned that their jobs had become "secretarial." Those who once had the opportunity to move up in the business world while they were clerks soon found themselves stuck in the same place since secretarial work didn't provide much opportunity to elevate. But I agree, the question is, who decides what makes a position honorable? -Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I've decided that Nellie Bly is my new hero. The way she stood up to her boss and threatened to go to another paper if she wasn't allowed to "travel the world in 80 days" was incredible, especially for a woman of her time. What's even more interesting is how some of the stereotypes she faced still plague women today. For one, she's "too delicate" since she's a woman and would need protection. Second, her boss was concerned she'd have too much luggage, and if you think about women today (I know I, myself, am guilty of this) they pack much more than necessary. She even said herself, "Packing that bag was the most difficult undertaking of my life." It's just interesting to see the correlation and then quite impressive to see how she overcame gender stereotypes to beat "the man" at his own game. -Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I loved that the excerpt about bicycle riding by Frances Willard was included in the chapter. It's simplicity had the strongest message of encouragement for women to leave behind their usual constraints and go out into the world, to take control of their lives. She points out that for too long women have been constrained by their clothing and appearance. Willard asks women to take uncomplicated modern inventions and free themselves. My favorite quote from the piece was, "They that know nothing fear nothing." (p.18) It was a phrase that offered such quiet strength for the women of that time and even to women now. --Kendall Haring<br />
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I know a few other of my classmates have commented on it, but I felt that I should also comment on the birth control article too. I was also amazed at some of the ways women tried to have abortions. I have to agree though with Kelly that birth control was a way men would lose power over women, but I don't understand why the men wanted to have so many children to try to provide for in his home. Why not use condoms or pull out? Were the men so uncaring they ignored the pain of the female they married and the hunger of their children? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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In response to Ashley W., I don't think the men of that time really thought about the pain of the female in child birth,etc. Just from researching my family, I found that my grandfathers father had 18 children from 2 different wives (the first wife died in childbirth) and birth control in that family was never an option. My grandfather is the youngest and was born in 1923. He told me that his father believed that the more children you had the better off you were because you had more people to work in the fields at harvest time and they felt you could have more livestock because there were more people to share the work. My grandfathers family was totally self sufficient and he says they barely noticed the depression because they were self sufficient. I think maybe a lot of men had the same mindset and didn't see their wives as "suffering" because it was the way they survived. That of course is a rural example I don't know if it would have been the same in the cities but I am sure it was somewhat different.~~MaryBeth C<br />
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Based on chapter 14, about black and white women’s vision of welfare activism, the book states that white women mostly helped out with political work and donations. Black women were more interested in helping there community and their churches. Could this be because black women saw other people as one class level and will help anyone, while white women will help out the upper class with politics to gain more women’s rights? <br />
–Ashley Scutari<br />
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I agree with Landon about how women were successful in gaining political power, but how far did that power get you? Even today I feel like women are still seen as the only way of gaining power is by having a strong male influence in the business beside you. <br />
–Ashley Scutari<br />
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In the “Modern American Women” book, the documents of Jane Addams were very interesting. Jane Addams was unsure of what she wanted to do after college. Most women just get married and have children. She wanted to figure out a way to help people especially women by restoring balance in activities that were along the traditional lines. In 1889 Addams created the Hull House; a place where she developed social services and recreational programs to help the less fortune. If Addams was another woman to break down doors for more opportunities for other women why didn’t women’s ways of work life change? Also this shows that women do not have to get married right after college. <br />
-Ashley Scutari<br />
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"The Feminist Challenge to the Privatized Home" was an interesting perspective on the home. Instead of telling women they could do it all, she asks women to consider working together with the family and other women to help them combine work and home. It seems so different from the feminist perspective that prevails today where women can do it all: home, work, and family. --Kendall Haring<br />
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In "Modern American Women" I found this quote "We feel therefore, obliged to state our believe that every woman who is presiding over a happy home, is fulfilling her highest and truest function, and could not be lured from it by temptations offered by factories or studies." All I have to say to this is wow have times changed since this was written. Women are making it a priority to be an asset to the workforce. --- Rose Ferguson<br />
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I found it interesting to read about Alice Hamilton and how she got a medical degree from the University of MIchigan. (I am biased after growing up in Ann Arbor!) I thought it was interesting to read about her train of thought as to why a medical degree. She pursued medicine not because of an interest but because she knew she could excel in it even as a woman. --- Rose Ferguson<br />
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I found this quote powerful and couldn't not post it. "We may convince the world that ability is not a matter of sex." --- Rose Ferguson<br />
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One thing I noticed from these reading is that these women are all they same. They all come from essentially the same place. They are women who are well educated, upper-middle class, and single or married later in life. Where are the accounts of the poorer working class women? -- Christine Wuebker<br />
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While reading "A Woman Homesteader" the only thing that kept popping into my mind was that frustrating game of Oregon Trail. After playing that for hours on end in elementary school, I understand that making the journey westward was nothing but difficult. So reading the entry by Edith was fascinating when she and her sister discussed how easy it would be to "stick it out" on a piece of land for eight months. What I'm curious about, is was it typical for these women to go out by themselves like this? I know in class we talked about men going off on their own to start a new life and help their family, but I don't recall discussing that many women going on their own, especially for financial reasons. And would fathers have been that willing to let their daughters make their own choices, especially ones of this magnitude? It seems kind of out of character in my opinion. Nonetheless, rock on to both of them for being as gutsy as they were. -Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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It was so sad reading in Mamie Field's article about being African-American teachers along with her sister for African-American children. They got what was barely a building, no space, no blackboard and it was in such a bad location. The part that got to me the most was when she said that the white teachers never cared whether the black children came to school or not no matter waht the reason (poverty) and the fact that since these childrens' parents hadn't gone to school themselves, sometimes they didn't understand the great importance of getting their children educated. -Emely Amaya<br />
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Nellie Bly's article about wanting to be a female world travler started off as a woman trying to prove that she can do what a man can but then turns humorous when she's talking about how to her packing lightly meant stuffing everything, even her moisturizing face cream and sadly parting with her evening dress. Just wasn't really helping our case about how we CAN pack light, even if to us packing light means packing a bit more than a man. - Emely Amaya.<br />
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Like Kendall, I also liked the excerpt about Frances Willard riding her bike. A quote that stood out to me was, "I also wanted to help women to a wider world, for I hold that the more interests women and men have in common, in thought, in word, and deed, the happier it will be for the home." My interpretation of what Willard was saying is that it would be beneficial for everyone, both men and women, if women were allowed to experience the world outside the home the way men were allowed to. -Marilyn<br />
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I thought the Jane Addams excerpt was inspirational. Even though she had no idea what she wanted to do after college, she created an organization that had such a huge impact on the community and the country. Not only did she help those who were less fortunate, but she also helped women like herself who did not want to marry and start a family immediately after college - they wanted to achieve something greater. -Marilyn<br />
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Yay for birth contol!!! Reading about Mrs. Sachs case made me sad. It got me thinking how many women died this way? For some reason after reading me it hit me, women didn't just start trying abortions at the turn of the 20th century, this was a practice that I'm sure is as old as time!- Emely Amaya.<br />
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Today’s women have changed in part because of the women in Modern American Women, and of course time. Women are women no matter when in time they are women. Does that make since. For example, the biological issues women have always had has not changed, it has just gotten better. Women still get pregnant, time has made it easier, women use birth control methods, time has made it easier, and in most cases women are still the main caregiver for children. Time, and exceptional women have made life better for women but some things will never change. For example, In most cases women have always been chatty, they have been into fashion, and have clicks of women in which they have bonded. This part of womanhood has not changed and never will. I feel women have came a long way in their fight for equality, (we have a women running SUCCESSFULLY for president). Although time has passed, the makeup of women is still the same. --Nikole Wellman<br />
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The reading on Jane Addams and Mother Jones were my favorite. These women touched and changed so many peoples lives. They seem so passionate for there cause and did not let critics of their day stop them. They are truly exceptional. -- Nikole Wellman</div>NLWhttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_2_Questions/Comments328--Week 2 Questions/Comments2008-01-24T02:55:00Z<p>NLW: </p>
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<div>I found it interesting that the concept of a separation between freedom and suffrage that existed during the Post-Civil War period is very well upheld assumption today. --Justin Mattos<br />
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The gradual disenfranchisement and barring from political participation of black women seems to be an interesting example of white society's influence on black culture. --Justin Mattos<br />
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What were the similarities between the political participation of black women and political participation of the women of immigrant groups and other minorities? --Justin Mattos<br />
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I thought it was very interesting in the reading where the author discussed the concept of family being the "unifying thread" that bound African Americans together. She says that "the notion of family members as having a mutual and continuing responsibility to help each other and to prepare for hard times" (pg 125). Wouldn't that have been true of any family during the reconstruction period, black or white? ~~Mary Beth C<br />
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I agree with Justin that it is interesting to see how the African American women were gradually pushed out of the political arena after having been so active and vocal. I think it is funny how the women would "take sactions" (pg 135),such as abstaining from sexual relations, against men that voted for the Democratic party! ~~ Mary Beth C<br />
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The concept that I found most intriguing overall in the reading was the conflicting views of freedom and suffrage being an individual possession versus communal. This led to the different treatment of people who voted against the popular view. To someone who thought individuals were responsible to only themselves they would view hostility against other voters as opposing the libreal democratic process whereas in the African American community, where suffrage was viewed as a collective possesion, it was right to be hostile towards those who threatened the well being of the whole community. -Karly Kovalcik<br />
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Although the difference may be slight on paper, there is a huge difference between the African American woman's perspective that her husband votes for her in a way that represents her political beliefs and ideologies versus a white woman's perspective that her husband voted for her without consulting with her because he acted individually in a way that was best for his wife and children. -Karly Kovalcik<br />
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After reading the article I made a decision that I had previously I had been flip-flopping between. I now believe that there needs to be subcategories of the women's history to include at least, but not limiting to, African American Women's history. The history seems to be so different just from the article we had to read. Such as, the black women feeling that they were equally part of the vote that the black men casted. I don't remember ever hearing about that before, at least with white women, but then again I haven't taken a women's history course before either -- Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I agree completely with Ashley. After reading this article, it has become clear to me that women's history needs definite subcategories. But that just makes me thing about how many subcategories can we really delve into? I mean, if you think of how many different subject classes are offered to us within our history department, all of which normally pertain to "men's history," do we need all of those categories for women's history as well? - Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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The other thing I found interesting in the article by Elsa Brown was just how the women and men viewed the 'sense of the vote' at first. Such as the vote casted by the men was equally the women's vote, and how the black republican politicians were able to get (well, it seems like the article was meaning quite a few) many of the black women to reject black male democratic voters. Also, just the fact the black women to fight to even get to vote in Richmond's First African Baptist Church astounded me with the way the article was talking about community earlier on. It definitely feels like slowly, but surely, the women were losing the political say they had through their men. -- Ashley Wilkins<br />
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In chapter 8, Brown gives examples of the freed African American trying to regain the importance of ''the family''. The church was impacted by the new seating integration, families lived together in support, and even none relatives were taken into homes that had room in racial solidarity. Single and widowed women lived together, sharing incomes and responsibility over child care. In a way, black women were improving and strengthening the idea of ''the family'' that white society held such virtue in. By living as sisters with none relatives, but former "fellow servants", African American women created an even stronger sense of female solidarity and sisterhood than white women. While many white women of the time looked down on excessive charity (even to single women with children), black women were united. I believe the lacking sense of sisterhood among all white women and failure to unite with African American women hurt them in the struggle for suffrage.--Jackie Reed<br />
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The experience of slavery created a need to embrace other African Americans, so it is not surprising that they reached out to the community of African Americans during the Reconstruction Era and beyond. It was family and a sense of community that held African Americans together. "Whether one eats or starves in this setting depends on the available resources within the community as a whole."(126) This essay reminded me of a conversation that I had with a senior African American woman in Georgia, who told me that during the violence of the 1950s communities of African Americans posted neighborhood watches. According to the story, white males, sometimes intoxicated, would drive through black communities seeking victims. The men took on the responsibility of protecting the citizens within the community. This women said that they seldom left the neighborhood due to potential violence, and there was no need to because school, church, and markets were all within the perimeter of the black community.--LisaM<br />
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The concept that the freedom and political liberty of U.S. citizens was not synonymous (130) seems a blatent contradition to present day eyes. As we all know, the black codes in the Reconstruction Era disenfranchised large populations of blacks. Brown's essay states that black women felt they had a stake in the man's choice in voting. I recall in Georgia history, the sizeable female black population was considered a threat if allowed to vote; black women were inclined to vote Republican, and the South were Democrats.--LisaM<br />
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I agree with Karly about how there is a huge difference between the African American woman's perspective that her husband votes for her representing her political beliefs and to a white woman's perspective that the husband voted for her without consulting with her. That he voted for who he though was best for him and his wife and children. I think it shows that even though all men are superior when it comes to women, African American men have more respect to their wives then a white man does to his. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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Something that I found interesting in the reading was when it discussed how blacks were active participants throughout the state constitutional convention. African Americans both male and female crowded the galleries speaking their opinions letting their voices be heard. It says " White women, for example, certainly on occasion sat in the convention's gallery as visitors silently observing the proceedings..."(pg129). African American women were standing besides the men that "represented" them and took part in trying to make changes, while the white women sat there quietly letting their men make decisions for them. I just find this funny because you would think a white women would have a little more part in politics; but I guess an African American woman didn't have much to loose if she spoke out of turn or defended her own ideas. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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I thought it was interesting that Brown discussed the varying ways to interpret the word “freedom.” For black women, freedom was the ability to remain close to the community and help the family. She stated that for black women, “the charity of this penniless negress in receiving another poverty-stricken creature under her roof was characteristic of the freedmen” (p. 126). On the other hand, from the perspective of white men and women, freedom was the ability to get ahead and better oneself. For example, Brown states, “freedpeople should adopt naturally those habits of thrift, diligence, and acquisitiveness that were a cornerstone of free labor ideology” (p.127). This highlights an important difference in perspective. --Jessica Kilday<br />
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Brown talks a lot about the difference between freedom and political liberty. There was debate on whether or not civil right should be an “inherent corollary to freedom.” She mentions the views of Gibson when discussing this point, in which he suggests, “persons who had not yet learned to regulate their lives appropriately—to be thrifty, industrious, and diligent—were not yet capable of responsibly exercising liberty. Those not capable of political liberty would rely on those capable of it to protect their freedom” (p 130). In the time following the civil war, women did not have the right to vote, given this statement, is it because society did not view them as “capable of the responsibility?” Moreover, is this, to some extent true today, with the definition of “capable”, not applying to gender, but to age? --Jessica Kilday<br />
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In Browns essay I thought it was interesting on page 129 that during debates white women were silent and the African Americans were not. Instead they participated and loudly; however Brown doesn't say whether the African Amercians were men or women or both. Why were the white women silent? <br />
Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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What was also intersting to me in Browns essay was that Southern Black women and men debated the issue of woman suffrage (131). I assume this is because Black men were in the same boat as women in general because they didn't have much rights either so they understood the frustration of not having certain rights and in this case the right to vote. <br />
Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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In response to your assumption Michelle, I'm going to agree somewhat, and say that black men also debated the issue of women's suffrage, because they too had to struggle to have a political voice. They had a difficult time obtaining the right to vote themselves, so they also had to persuade women to help them and back them up while trying to get a shot at the vote. This, of course, led to a massive debate over whether or not black men or women as a gender should be granted the right to vote first, and caused quite a stir when it was granted to men. There were quite a few men, though, like Frederick Douglass I believe, who supported the woman's right to vote. They understood what it was like to be considered politically naive, so I'm sure that helped in some way. - Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I found it interesting that during the Reconstruction Era while men and women who had been slaves focused on finding the families that they had been separated from the white society surrounding these families found something wrong with the fact the black community latched onto the families they had around them. It seemed odd that they would have such a negative view on the fact that these people had such a strong desire to help out family members or even simply other people who experienced the difficulties of slavery with them. I would have thought that this would have been something that would have been admired instead of mocked. They were helping others out which was something that I had understood was the duty of any Christian, especially during this time period where the majority of the nation was Christian. Was it simply because they were a different skin color than them? Or was it because many white people during this period were so focused on improving their lot in life that they couldn't have cared less about how the others were doing? - Elizabeth Frank<br />
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I enjoyed reading how although the black women in communities were denied the right to actually cast a vote in elections they still made their political opinions known. I especially enjoyed reading that these women would threaten their husbands in order to insure they voted in a way that represented not only his opinions but also hers as well! - Elizabeth Frank<br />
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What I found interesting in Brown's essay was that while African Americans were TECHNICALLY exteneded all the freedoms and liberties afforded the white male populous, there were still social norms and restraints (that were more powerful than any amendment) that constrained their freedoms. These could be seen explicitly in the south, and more subtly in the North but they definetly existed. However, even in the time of Jim Crow laws, and a time when women (white or black) still could not vote, in the African American community black women had real power. On page 130 Brown talks about how black culture had both an internal and external political structure. In the internal structure black women had just as much power as the men. So why was this not the case with the white culture of the day? Did the conditions within slavery equalize black men and women, is this something that carried over from their culture in Africa, or were black women simply more strong willed and outspoken? - Landon Davis<br />
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Another point worth discussing from the reading was the incredibly gernerous and nuclear support system African Americans set up during reconstruction. Brown talks about how the ex-slaves would depend on one another, for food, shelter, and money. Sometimes they would even go so far as to share bank accounts. Although I admire their genorosity and envy their sense of community, I have to wonder if African American Society as a whole in the long run would not have been better off if the individuals would have put their extra money to a productive use for themselves individually, rather than dontating it to the poor. If families with extra money(time or space)would have invested this money - in businesses, or in education for their offspring the African American community may ascended to equality alot sooner than they did(assuming they have). - Landon Davis<br />
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The white characterization of newly freed blacks as "lazy and shiftless" because of their sense of collective responsibility was simply ignorance of their own history. During the Revolutionary Period and Founding, it was not uncommon for people to quarter soldiers and economically help one another due to oppression from their common foe - the British. The individualistic and free labor ideology in white America really took hold with the opening of the frontier. As an oppressed people, it was only natural that the black community would bond in such a way in the face of the oppression and discrimination which they would continue to face for another 100+ years. Phil N.<br />
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Another note from late 18th, early 19th century: As far as whites had been concerned at first, only the middle and upper classes of white males had access to the ballot box. Freedom and suffrage were not linked until this time, starting with the Jacksonian period. Before that, almost 200 years had elapsed in which the franchise being the domain of the upper classes was never seriously challenged. - Phil N.<br />
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I think Brown's piece brings to light a clear division between Black and White women in this time period: active vs. passive. Black women were just as active in their communities as Black men were. Their work was respected and acknowledged in the community while White women were conforming to a societal ideal that discouraged the "work" that was alongside men. After the civil war there was a window for African Americans to actively shape their own place in American society and the women were a very strong force in that. I wondered while reading if this difference of racial culture from the post-civil war period is infiltrated into American culture today? -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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I agree with Amanda on how African American men treated their wives more respectively with voting than white men did. African American men consulted with their wives about who was best for the position for them and their children. White men just voted for whom they believed was best for the position without talking to their wives. Could the reason for this be because African Americans were treated unequally or naturally they just had more respect for their wives? –Ashley Scutari<br />
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What I also found interesting was how black Republican politicians in the south “took women’s participation seriously and publicly encouraged them to abstain from sexual relations with any man who voted Democratic.” I think that is getting too much into the personal life. Some women actually left their husbands or broke off the wedding until the election was over. Black Republican politicians in a way could brain-wash these women in the South. Could this be because the politicians are encouraging women to participate and are showing acknowledgment towards them? –Ashley Scutari<br />
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Reading this article just emphasizes how much more of a struggle African American women had, especially in the political realm. Some historians tend to forget that black women had to struggle because not only were they of another race, but they were also of the "weaker" gender. So reading about how much they actually did, and how active they were in politics, it shows just how impressive and how determined they were to make a stand and get something accomplished. Granted, things didn't happen overnight, but for those women who actively participated in making a voice for themselves they showed just how much some women really wanted to be able to have a say. I think that makes sense. If it doesn't, ask me in class. - Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I found it interesting the different ways that women found to become involved in politics before they had the right to vote. It seems as though women became truly invested in their husband's political stance and tried to influence him. It seems much more as though the men had to think of the group when they cast their vote, rather than simply voting for themselves. It's almost as though the women held the men accountable for their votes. --Katie Nelson<br />
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I noticed that a sense of community seemed to be an important factor in discussing southern black women's political history. Community seems to be incredibly important to southern black women during this time. It is interesting to think of the many different communities to which they likely belonged, and the influence that they had on each of these communities. --Katie Nelson<br />
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I found it very interesting that freed slaves were NOT most enthused about the possibility to work for pay, but rather what meant more to them was mobility... and therefore to pursue the enjoyment of life by minimizing the "time spent at work." - Cat<br />
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One thing this reading definitely highlights is that historians must be very vigilant about the reflection of their own social assumptions and political expectations in their work. - Cat<br />
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I was surprised the author said women were "encouraged" to withhold sex and marriage in an effort to get their husbands to vote Republican. Who was encouraging them? I thought this type of female power wielding was looked down upon by society. - Cat<br />
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As I was reading about the Black community and it's power over the individual I began thinking about collective women. Will it ever be possible to unite American women politically in a fashion similar to the Black community so that by voting the "wrong" way it would be a disgrace towards women of all races? That the Black community understood that "the issue...was not autonomy but responsibility" (136) played such a strong role in shaping the Reconstruction era. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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I may have missed it, but what were the views of the Democrats? Why were women so opposed to Democrats? Women were carrying weapons and withholding sex, and men feared them. One Woman said that “If a colored man votes the Democratic ticket he has sold himself”. I am interested to know what exactly the Democratic views were and why women were so disturbed with them. Was it just colored women or were white women opposed to the Democrats as well? <br />
Women have not always been able to vote, however we see in Brown’s essay that they make there feelings heard and well known.—Nikole Wellman <br />
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Beverly Nash was a state senator in 1872 and proposed a woman’s suffrage amendment to the state constitution. Women were not allowed to vote yet but they are holding a political office. How is this so? --Nikole Wellman<br />
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What is a Whipper?—Nikole Wellman</div>NLWhttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_2_Questions/Comments328--Week 2 Questions/Comments2008-01-24T02:51:30Z<p>NLW: </p>
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<div>I found it interesting that the concept of a separation between freedom and suffrage that existed during the Post-Civil War period is very well upheld assumption today. --Justin Mattos<br />
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The gradual disenfranchisement and barring from political participation of black women seems to be an interesting example of white society's influence on black culture. --Justin Mattos<br />
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What were the similarities between the political participation of black women and political participation of the women of immigrant groups and other minorities? --Justin Mattos<br />
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I thought it was very interesting in the reading where the author discussed the concept of family being the "unifying thread" that bound African Americans together. She says that "the notion of family members as having a mutual and continuing responsibility to help each other and to prepare for hard times" (pg 125). Wouldn't that have been true of any family during the reconstruction period, black or white? ~~Mary Beth C<br />
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I agree with Justin that it is interesting to see how the African American women were gradually pushed out of the political arena after having been so active and vocal. I think it is funny how the women would "take sactions" (pg 135),such as abstaining from sexual relations, against men that voted for the Democratic party! ~~ Mary Beth C<br />
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The concept that I found most intriguing overall in the reading was the conflicting views of freedom and suffrage being an individual possession versus communal. This led to the different treatment of people who voted against the popular view. To someone who thought individuals were responsible to only themselves they would view hostility against other voters as opposing the libreal democratic process whereas in the African American community, where suffrage was viewed as a collective possesion, it was right to be hostile towards those who threatened the well being of the whole community. -Karly Kovalcik<br />
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Although the difference may be slight on paper, there is a huge difference between the African American woman's perspective that her husband votes for her in a way that represents her political beliefs and ideologies versus a white woman's perspective that her husband voted for her without consulting with her because he acted individually in a way that was best for his wife and children. -Karly Kovalcik<br />
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After reading the article I made a decision that I had previously I had been flip-flopping between. I now believe that there needs to be subcategories of the women's history to include at least, but not limiting to, African American Women's history. The history seems to be so different just from the article we had to read. Such as, the black women feeling that they were equally part of the vote that the black men casted. I don't remember ever hearing about that before, at least with white women, but then again I haven't taken a women's history course before either -- Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I agree completely with Ashley. After reading this article, it has become clear to me that women's history needs definite subcategories. But that just makes me thing about how many subcategories can we really delve into? I mean, if you think of how many different subject classes are offered to us within our history department, all of which normally pertain to "men's history," do we need all of those categories for women's history as well? - Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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The other thing I found interesting in the article by Elsa Brown was just how the women and men viewed the 'sense of the vote' at first. Such as the vote casted by the men was equally the women's vote, and how the black republican politicians were able to get (well, it seems like the article was meaning quite a few) many of the black women to reject black male democratic voters. Also, just the fact the black women to fight to even get to vote in Richmond's First African Baptist Church astounded me with the way the article was talking about community earlier on. It definitely feels like slowly, but surely, the women were losing the political say they had through their men. -- Ashley Wilkins<br />
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In chapter 8, Brown gives examples of the freed African American trying to regain the importance of ''the family''. The church was impacted by the new seating integration, families lived together in support, and even none relatives were taken into homes that had room in racial solidarity. Single and widowed women lived together, sharing incomes and responsibility over child care. In a way, black women were improving and strengthening the idea of ''the family'' that white society held such virtue in. By living as sisters with none relatives, but former "fellow servants", African American women created an even stronger sense of female solidarity and sisterhood than white women. While many white women of the time looked down on excessive charity (even to single women with children), black women were united. I believe the lacking sense of sisterhood among all white women and failure to unite with African American women hurt them in the struggle for suffrage.--Jackie Reed<br />
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The experience of slavery created a need to embrace other African Americans, so it is not surprising that they reached out to the community of African Americans during the Reconstruction Era and beyond. It was family and a sense of community that held African Americans together. "Whether one eats or starves in this setting depends on the available resources within the community as a whole."(126) This essay reminded me of a conversation that I had with a senior African American woman in Georgia, who told me that during the violence of the 1950s communities of African Americans posted neighborhood watches. According to the story, white males, sometimes intoxicated, would drive through black communities seeking victims. The men took on the responsibility of protecting the citizens within the community. This women said that they seldom left the neighborhood due to potential violence, and there was no need to because school, church, and markets were all within the perimeter of the black community.--LisaM<br />
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The concept that the freedom and political liberty of U.S. citizens was not synonymous (130) seems a blatent contradition to present day eyes. As we all know, the black codes in the Reconstruction Era disenfranchised large populations of blacks. Brown's essay states that black women felt they had a stake in the man's choice in voting. I recall in Georgia history, the sizeable female black population was considered a threat if allowed to vote; black women were inclined to vote Republican, and the South were Democrats.--LisaM<br />
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I agree with Karly about how there is a huge difference between the African American woman's perspective that her husband votes for her representing her political beliefs and to a white woman's perspective that the husband voted for her without consulting with her. That he voted for who he though was best for him and his wife and children. I think it shows that even though all men are superior when it comes to women, African American men have more respect to their wives then a white man does to his. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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Something that I found interesting in the reading was when it discussed how blacks were active participants throughout the state constitutional convention. African Americans both male and female crowded the galleries speaking their opinions letting their voices be heard. It says " White women, for example, certainly on occasion sat in the convention's gallery as visitors silently observing the proceedings..."(pg129). African American women were standing besides the men that "represented" them and took part in trying to make changes, while the white women sat there quietly letting their men make decisions for them. I just find this funny because you would think a white women would have a little more part in politics; but I guess an African American woman didn't have much to loose if she spoke out of turn or defended her own ideas. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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I thought it was interesting that Brown discussed the varying ways to interpret the word “freedom.” For black women, freedom was the ability to remain close to the community and help the family. She stated that for black women, “the charity of this penniless negress in receiving another poverty-stricken creature under her roof was characteristic of the freedmen” (p. 126). On the other hand, from the perspective of white men and women, freedom was the ability to get ahead and better oneself. For example, Brown states, “freedpeople should adopt naturally those habits of thrift, diligence, and acquisitiveness that were a cornerstone of free labor ideology” (p.127). This highlights an important difference in perspective. --Jessica Kilday<br />
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Brown talks a lot about the difference between freedom and political liberty. There was debate on whether or not civil right should be an “inherent corollary to freedom.” She mentions the views of Gibson when discussing this point, in which he suggests, “persons who had not yet learned to regulate their lives appropriately—to be thrifty, industrious, and diligent—were not yet capable of responsibly exercising liberty. Those not capable of political liberty would rely on those capable of it to protect their freedom” (p 130). In the time following the civil war, women did not have the right to vote, given this statement, is it because society did not view them as “capable of the responsibility?” Moreover, is this, to some extent true today, with the definition of “capable”, not applying to gender, but to age? --Jessica Kilday<br />
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In Browns essay I thought it was interesting on page 129 that during debates white women were silent and the African Americans were not. Instead they participated and loudly; however Brown doesn't say whether the African Amercians were men or women or both. Why were the white women silent? <br />
Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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What was also intersting to me in Browns essay was that Southern Black women and men debated the issue of woman suffrage (131). I assume this is because Black men were in the same boat as women in general because they didn't have much rights either so they understood the frustration of not having certain rights and in this case the right to vote. <br />
Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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In response to your assumption Michelle, I'm going to agree somewhat, and say that black men also debated the issue of women's suffrage, because they too had to struggle to have a political voice. They had a difficult time obtaining the right to vote themselves, so they also had to persuade women to help them and back them up while trying to get a shot at the vote. This, of course, led to a massive debate over whether or not black men or women as a gender should be granted the right to vote first, and caused quite a stir when it was granted to men. There were quite a few men, though, like Frederick Douglass I believe, who supported the woman's right to vote. They understood what it was like to be considered politically naive, so I'm sure that helped in some way. - Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I found it interesting that during the Reconstruction Era while men and women who had been slaves focused on finding the families that they had been separated from the white society surrounding these families found something wrong with the fact the black community latched onto the families they had around them. It seemed odd that they would have such a negative view on the fact that these people had such a strong desire to help out family members or even simply other people who experienced the difficulties of slavery with them. I would have thought that this would have been something that would have been admired instead of mocked. They were helping others out which was something that I had understood was the duty of any Christian, especially during this time period where the majority of the nation was Christian. Was it simply because they were a different skin color than them? Or was it because many white people during this period were so focused on improving their lot in life that they couldn't have cared less about how the others were doing? - Elizabeth Frank<br />
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I enjoyed reading how although the black women in communities were denied the right to actually cast a vote in elections they still made their political opinions known. I especially enjoyed reading that these women would threaten their husbands in order to insure they voted in a way that represented not only his opinions but also hers as well! - Elizabeth Frank<br />
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What I found interesting in Brown's essay was that while African Americans were TECHNICALLY exteneded all the freedoms and liberties afforded the white male populous, there were still social norms and restraints (that were more powerful than any amendment) that constrained their freedoms. These could be seen explicitly in the south, and more subtly in the North but they definetly existed. However, even in the time of Jim Crow laws, and a time when women (white or black) still could not vote, in the African American community black women had real power. On page 130 Brown talks about how black culture had both an internal and external political structure. In the internal structure black women had just as much power as the men. So why was this not the case with the white culture of the day? Did the conditions within slavery equalize black men and women, is this something that carried over from their culture in Africa, or were black women simply more strong willed and outspoken? - Landon Davis<br />
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Another point worth discussing from the reading was the incredibly gernerous and nuclear support system African Americans set up during reconstruction. Brown talks about how the ex-slaves would depend on one another, for food, shelter, and money. Sometimes they would even go so far as to share bank accounts. Although I admire their genorosity and envy their sense of community, I have to wonder if African American Society as a whole in the long run would not have been better off if the individuals would have put their extra money to a productive use for themselves individually, rather than dontating it to the poor. If families with extra money(time or space)would have invested this money - in businesses, or in education for their offspring the African American community may ascended to equality alot sooner than they did(assuming they have). - Landon Davis<br />
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The white characterization of newly freed blacks as "lazy and shiftless" because of their sense of collective responsibility was simply ignorance of their own history. During the Revolutionary Period and Founding, it was not uncommon for people to quarter soldiers and economically help one another due to oppression from their common foe - the British. The individualistic and free labor ideology in white America really took hold with the opening of the frontier. As an oppressed people, it was only natural that the black community would bond in such a way in the face of the oppression and discrimination which they would continue to face for another 100+ years. Phil N.<br />
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Another note from late 18th, early 19th century: As far as whites had been concerned at first, only the middle and upper classes of white males had access to the ballot box. Freedom and suffrage were not linked until this time, starting with the Jacksonian period. Before that, almost 200 years had elapsed in which the franchise being the domain of the upper classes was never seriously challenged. - Phil N.<br />
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I think Brown's piece brings to light a clear division between Black and White women in this time period: active vs. passive. Black women were just as active in their communities as Black men were. Their work was respected and acknowledged in the community while White women were conforming to a societal ideal that discouraged the "work" that was alongside men. After the civil war there was a window for African Americans to actively shape their own place in American society and the women were a very strong force in that. I wondered while reading if this difference of racial culture from the post-civil war period is infiltrated into American culture today? -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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I agree with Amanda on how African American men treated their wives more respectively with voting than white men did. African American men consulted with their wives about who was best for the position for them and their children. White men just voted for whom they believed was best for the position without talking to their wives. Could the reason for this be because African Americans were treated unequally or naturally they just had more respect for their wives? –Ashley Scutari<br />
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What I also found interesting was how black Republican politicians in the south “took women’s participation seriously and publicly encouraged them to abstain from sexual relations with any man who voted Democratic.” I think that is getting too much into the personal life. Some women actually left their husbands or broke off the wedding until the election was over. Black Republican politicians in a way could brain-wash these women in the South. Could this be because the politicians are encouraging women to participate and are showing acknowledgment towards them? –Ashley Scutari<br />
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Reading this article just emphasizes how much more of a struggle African American women had, especially in the political realm. Some historians tend to forget that black women had to struggle because not only were they of another race, but they were also of the "weaker" gender. So reading about how much they actually did, and how active they were in politics, it shows just how impressive and how determined they were to make a stand and get something accomplished. Granted, things didn't happen overnight, but for those women who actively participated in making a voice for themselves they showed just how much some women really wanted to be able to have a say. I think that makes sense. If it doesn't, ask me in class. - Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I found it interesting the different ways that women found to become involved in politics before they had the right to vote. It seems as though women became truly invested in their husband's political stance and tried to influence him. It seems much more as though the men had to think of the group when they cast their vote, rather than simply voting for themselves. It's almost as though the women held the men accountable for their votes. --Katie Nelson<br />
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I noticed that a sense of community seemed to be an important factor in discussing southern black women's political history. Community seems to be incredibly important to southern black women during this time. It is interesting to think of the many different communities to which they likely belonged, and the influence that they had on each of these communities. --Katie Nelson<br />
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I found it very interesting that freed slaves were NOT most enthused about the possibility to work for pay, but rather what meant more to them was mobility... and therefore to pursue the enjoyment of life by minimizing the "time spent at work." - Cat<br />
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One thing this reading definitely highlights is that historians must be very vigilant about the reflection of their own social assumptions and political expectations in their work. - Cat<br />
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I was surprised the author said women were "encouraged" to withhold sex and marriage in an effort to get their husbands to vote Republican. Who was encouraging them? I thought this type of female power wielding was looked down upon by society. - Cat<br />
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As I was reading about the Black community and it's power over the individual I began thinking about collective women. Will it ever be possible to unite American women politically in a fashion similar to the Black community so that by voting the "wrong" way it would be a disgrace towards women of all races? That the Black community understood that "the issue...was not autonomy but responsibility" (136) played such a strong role in shaping the Reconstruction era. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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I may have missed it, but what were the views of the democrats. Why were women so opposed to democrats? Women were caring weapons and withhold sex, and men feared them… One Woman said that “If a colored man votes the Democratic ticket he has sold himself”. I am interested to know what exactly the Democratic views were and why women were so disturbed with them. <br />
Women have not always been able to vote, however we see in Brown’s essay that they make there feelings heard and well known.—Nikole Wellman <br />
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Beverly Nash was a state senator in 1872 and proposed a woman’s suffrage amendment to the state constitution. Women were not allowed to vote yet but they are holding a political office. How is this so? --Nikole Wellman<br />
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What is a Whipper?—Nikole Wellman</div>NLWhttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_1_Questions/Comments328--Week 1 Questions/Comments2008-01-17T03:41:53Z<p>NLW: </p>
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<div>This is not a real post.<br />
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I agree.<br />
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You're both wrong. -- Sarah H.<br />
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I found it extremely interesting in "Challenging Dichotomies in Women's History" that fatherhood was not seen as a natural thing but instead was viewed as being "social". Yet for women being a mother was a "natural" phenomenon. I would have thought that it would have also been seen as natural for the man to also assume a fatherly role despite his involvement in the public sphere. Is this because the men were already doing so much that being a fatherly figure just couldn't always be an important role? Or is it because if they were expected to show a more emotional side of them they would be considered less of a man because they wouldn't be acting tough? - Elizabeth L. Frank<br />
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I was surprised to read in "Rethinking the Position of Black Women in American Women's History" that some Black Women scholars feel that even today the importance of black women and their roles in society are being overlooked in the fields of women's studies! I understood that it took a little while for scholars to realize that they had to look at the difference ethnicities differently as far as their experiences in society but I had no idea that there were aspects that were still being overlooked. I also liked the statement Leslie Alexander made in the first sentence of the last paragraph of the essay that in order to truly understand the experiences of women that scholars must become willing to explore the differences of the cultures instead of simply ignoring the fact that they are different. I thought that was a very good point. - Elizabeth L. Frank<br />
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The theme of the four essays is to tackle the question, what is the meaning and importance in studying women’s history? In the first essay, Haulman points out that the study of women’s history has changed over time. It first focused on the measurable contributions of women to American society and then shifted to focus more on the private lives of women in their home life. -- Jessica Kilday<br />
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It is interesting to note in the second essay that Bock brings up many different theories with which to compare the role of men and women in society. When examining the dichotomies suggested it is interesting to consider not only how women have affected society but also how the norms of society influenced the role of women. -- Jessica Kilday<br />
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More than one of the essays point out that many subjects in American women’s history has been concentrated on white middle class women. It is important to look at the role of culture and ethnicity in women’s studies because all of these factors affect the experiences and challenges of women in society. The study of women is not static; it is changing, and shaped by many different factors, and it is important to consider more than one. -- Jessica Kilday<br />
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In the essay "Women of Color and the Rewriting of Western History," I found it interesting that the women's liberation movement in the United States was mainly about gender oppression. The movements were middle class white women who wrote about the history of white women in the West. Though, women of color looked towards third-world liberation movements for support instead of women's liberation movements. Only if women of all different ethnicities joined together earlier would women's rights have developed earlier? Also women of color's gender oppression was different than white women's gender oppression in that colored women had to struggle with race and class unlike white women who mostly struggled with class. --Ashley Scutari<br />
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In the essay "Challenging Dichotomies in Women's History," I found it interesting in the first point Nature vs. Culture that fatherhood was not seen as natural but social. Women scholars challenged this by stating that women are therefore seen as "nature always having a social meaning" and nature and culture mean different things in different times. Women are the ones that physically have the baby, but that does not mean they have to be subject to the male sexes. Men are also taught to grow up as a strong non-emotional person. This could also be why fatherhood is seen as social instead of natural. <br />
--Ashley Scutari<br />
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In "Challenging Dichotomies in Women's History" Gisela Bock discusses how a woman's nature were child bearing, carring for the family, and taking care of things around the house originated from Europe; but what was once seen as nature is now seen as work. I I find this very true today, because a lot of stay home mothers consider their position as a mother and care taker of the home a job, however without pay as Bock mentions an "unpaid work." (pg 9) Also on the other hand there are many women that work and women for years have competed with the men in their wages but because of their sex and not who does the job best. Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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Leslie M. Alexander's essay mostly discusses black women and how their history is different from that of white womens history, which it is, but in today's society of white and black women are they still that different? Is this generation of black women still largley influenced by past generations in how they view themselves as black women? She also goes on to say that in order to understand black women you have to understand the black community. (pg 21) I think understanding any comminity that in its self is a different culture you have to understand their culture and way of life before understanding that community of people. The United States is full of all kinds of culturally different people. Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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In "Challenging Dichotomies in Women's History" I found the second point, Work v. Family interesting because it looks at "women's work" and how it relates men as the "workers" and women as "non-workers". Women who are are non working mothers are still seen as "non-workers" today. I think that the stay at home mother profession should be given more respect in the professional world. Many stay at home mothers work just as hard if not harder than those in careers outside the home. --Kellye Sorber<br />
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In "Women of Color and the Rewriting of Western History" Castaneda discusses the problems faced by scholers of color in their work to properly show the history of thier ancestors. It was interseting that these scholars struggle to accurately portray these women and not let assumptions get in the way thier research. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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What I found interesting after reading all of the essays is that I still had no idea how historians should study women's history. From what I read I got the feeling that the study of women's history had the same problem as other thematic studies of history: how do you study the history of a single facet of society without studying the history of all of the other facets? --Justin Mattos<br />
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I agree completely with Justin. The editor raises a very valid point in the beginning before we even approach the essays, and that is "how do you study women's history?" After reading all of the essays, it's clear that it is very difficult to lump all of women's history together to study. There are so many different aspects of women's history to take into account that it almost seems impossible to study it all at once without leaving something out. Then again, isn't that what happens with history in general? When we're taught history, ignoring that men are typically the central characters, think of how much is left out so that we can stay on task for a single semester on a topic that could seem quite specific in the first place. -Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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An unfortunate conclusion from "Rethinking the Position of Black Women in American Women's History" was the need for the undermining of an important aspect of the Women's Movement in order for Women's History in order to be properly studied. --Justin Mattos<br />
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After reading "Challenging Dichotomies in Women's History" by Gisela Bock, I realized how much of a connection our society's conception of women has with the writing of its history: how can women's history be properly studied without first changing our perceptions of women? If the study of women's history is part of the changing of our perception of women then should we expect its study to be apolitical? --Justin Mattos<br />
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In Kate Haukman’s essay, she talks about the difficulty of studying women without examining gender history as well. If this is the case, which Bock also believed it is, then how can it be that the study of men’s history seems often less related to gender roles? - Cat Debelius<br />
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In Bock’s essay, I found particularly interesting her comment that in today’s world we still reserve the terms “working women” and “working mother” for employed women only, overlooking, even with our language, the fact that being a mother is work. I guess this just goes to show you how truly slanted society still in is valuing men’s work over women’s. - Cat Debelius<br />
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Castaneda discusses the challenges of studying women of color. When to place a person within historical perspective, is it more important to explore their race or gender first? - Cat Debelius<br />
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In her essay, "Rethinking the Position of Black Women in American Women's History," Leslie Alexander makes a statement near the end saying, "The challenge remains for us to analyze Black women through their own eyes rather than through the lens of whiteness and opression." (p.22). My question, is does anyone think that is truly possible? Most of what scholars have on Black women's history has been recorded by whites, and for a great deal of time, by white men. I believe that now we as historians should be able to look at this history through the eyes of those who experienced it, but a large chunk of this history has been warped and skewed in some way. Does anyone think it's possible to correct that? Or, regardless of the tools and resources we have today, are things always going to be interpreted in a more biased sense than they should be? -Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I found it extremely interesting in "Challenging Dichotomies in Women's History" that motherhood was a natural phenomenon, however fatherhood was not seen as a natural at all. That was seen as social. Yet for women being a mother was a "natural" phenomenon. I have always assumed that fatherhood was a natural phenomenon like motherhood despite their involvement in the social sphere. The child is just as much apart of him as it is the mother. My question is if this is because men were so involved in society there wasn't time? Or was it the fact that he could not show his nurturing/loving side? -- Amanda Taub<br />
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While reading the Dichotomies essay I found it amazing that fatherhood was seen as “social.” I always felt that motherhood and fatherhood were both ‘natural,’ but now I’m not sure. I have a feeling this was not worldwide though, since each culture is different. I’m curious how other cultures viewed mother- and fatherhood. –Ashley W.<br />
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I did not realize until reading these essays just how many problems are in the field of women’s history. From the sounds of the essays there have been problems getting the field established and then getting the field of women’s history to cover all women, regardless of race and class. It sounded like it was getting better, but still has lots of room for improvement. – Ashley W.<br />
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I found Bock's view of the sex and gender dichotomy to be particularly interesting. I never considered that the distincion of sex from gender would restate the nature versus nurture issue. I considered this distinction to be helpful to show that many feminine characteristics should not be considered inherent nor subordinate. Bock argues that these simple definitions only hurt by reinforcing the differences between the sexes and therefore polarizing the study of women. Like other studies of history, the study of women should be a continuous effort without the pause to separate a women's world into what is physiological from what is cultural. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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What I am already finding interesting with the study of women’s history versus other studies of history that I have made is its social and active participation in the present. I feel like the goal in my other history classes has been to recreate a time or event in the past, examine cause and effect, draw similarities, etc. but of things that happened in the past and stay in the past. Whereas so far I feel like women’s study is looking into the past as well but in the attempt to create “a change towards more freedom and justice” (Bock) in the present. -karly kovalcik<br />
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I found Bock’s discussion of equality vs. difference really interesting. She wonders why it is that “difference” is attributed to women and “equality” to men. Which makes me wonder if establishing equality in history is the main goal of women’s history, does making it a “different” field facilitate this or just reinforce dichotomies? When the women suffragists were fighting for the right to vote they weren’t voting for a “woman’s” vote they were just looking for the right to vote. I think there are the same inherent problems that we found with segregation and the “separate but equal” philosophy. -karly kovalcik<br />
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One question posed by Bock's essay that really stood out for me was the use of the words "equality" and "justice" when applied to separate genders. It was interesting that for men, these two words complement each other but for women, they are in opposition. The focus seems to be on their context in comparing history and then gender-focused history. In the traditional sense of history with a "male" focus, equality and justice are words with a positive focus, as words that have translated into positive action. When history is focused on women, equality and justice become negative, words that have been almost unachievable goals in that context. To me, it seems like it comes back to whether we are unwilling to look at history that shows us in an unfavorable light, just like the question with looking at racial minorities' history in America. --Kendall Haring<br />
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I never stopped to consider how feminism and women's history seems so focused on white middle-class women until I read Castaneda and Alexander's essays. There seems to be little representation of minority women when talking about American women's history. It seems like a race issue but is it more the case of white American women keeping minorities and race issues away from feminism or is it, as Alexander claims, that women, especially black women, are less concerned with their gender and more with race issues in history? --Kendall Haring<br />
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I agree with many others who have mentioned that parenthood always seemed as if it should be natural for both parties, however it is seen as natural only for women. How much does this have to do with the unique experience of women in pregnancy? Pregnancy is a natural experience reserved only for women, which might be why women see parenthood as natural. However, for men, they do not get to experience pregnancy, and only bond with the child once it is born. This may help to create the sensation that parenthood is natural for women but not for me. --Angela Scott <br />
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I found the essay "Rethinking the Position of Black Women in American Women's History" by Leslie M. Alexander to be both interesting and thought provoking. At one point Alexander points out that it is important to understand the Black community in order to understand the Black woman. I think that this denotes an importance of understanding culture that can be applied to studying all women. Isn't it important to understand the culture that a person comes from in order to understand the individual itself? All individuals exist within a given culture and are influenced by cultural norms and roles. --Katie Nelson<br />
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In Bock's essay "Challenging Dichotomies in Women's History," I found the discussion of equality v. difference very interesting. How do you decide which is more important equality or difference between the sexes? It seems as though we need to find a happy medium where we can recognize that men and women are different but equal. --Katie Nelson<br />
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I agree with Karly's comment about how our study of women's history might affect the present. In studying women's history, I wonder how prior assumptions and ideas might change in knowing the true facts behind various women's movements. --Angela Scott<br />
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After reading all the essays, I have found that the field of women's history is not nearly as simplistic as I had thought. I never realized all the issues that could arise in the field of women's history, it is so much more than simply the study of women. --Angela Scott<br />
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I thought Alexander's essay concerning race offered an interesting viewpoint. I agree that it is essential to consider race and culture first in order to understand how the concept of gender applies to the lives of African American women. I think this is an important point to keep in mind when evaluating women and the men they interact with throughout this course. Shouldn't the study of women take a multidimensional approach because of the labels other than "woman" that shape what direction their lives will take? -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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I agree with Kate Haulman in the point that studying women gave a new perspective on history. it's history through the eyes of a new group, a group that makes up half (arguably even more) of society. Women have always been there, at home, supproting their husbands and silently witnessing their activities. There is a lot that they have to say that gives us an even greater insight in events that we alread knew about. -Emely Amaya<br />
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I found several very interesting points in Haulman's essay. The most interesting and thought provoking for me was when she was discussing the definition of the word woman and female. What I gleaned from her discussion on this topic is that the word woman is constantly changing in meaning, as women socially evolve. For instance she gave the example of a man knitting. She said if a man knits is he really a man, for he has taken on "woman's work". I have always thought of man and woman in a strictly biological sense, so this really made me think.- Landon Davis<br />
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In Bock's essay I thought her section about intergration vs. autonomy was a little off base. If she is using the word autonomous to signify independence, I think that she would seriously be short changing the study of women's history. How could one completely divest women's history from that of mens'? Or mens' history from that of womens? It seems to me that you would need to be familiar with one to fully understand the other. -- Landon Davis<br />
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Kate Haulman's essay argues that the term "woman" is a fluid concept, based on gender, who has defined it as a category, and who has claimed it as an identiy. If that is so, then should transsexuals who believe they are and/or identify themselves as "women" be included in studies of "women's history", even if biologically they have a Y chromosome and not two X chromosomes? Gisela Bock addressed this subject at a glance during her discussion of sex versus gender, but did not really illuminate it. - Sarah H.<br />
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In reference to Antonia I Castaneda writing, Women of Color and the rewriting of Western History, she states two facts that I found interesting. First of all, she states that most feminist scholars write on the history of white women in the west and secondly, that women scholars of color focus on women of third world countries.(p.15) The history of white and colored women has been told by primarily white men, I thought, because there may have not been enough primary sources from women of any color. There was a time when women were not educated and many could not read nor write, therefore not keeping memoirs or journals to tell their stories. For example, the history of women during the Colonial or Antebellum period was most likely taken from the journals of men about what they wrote in regards to women at that time. What, if any, impact did the lack of women’s skills have on the writing of women’s history? Secondly, wouldn’t it be more difficult to find primary sources on women of a third world country rather that women in America. –Nikole Wellman</div>NLW Deprecated: header(): Passing null to parameter #3 ($response_code) of type int is deprecated in /home/umwhisto/public_html/mcclurken/wiki/includes/WebResponse.php on line 38