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Deprecated: header(): Passing null to parameter #3 ($response_code) of type int is deprecated in /home/umwhisto/public_html/mcclurken/wiki/includes/WebResponse.php on line 38 https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/api.php?action=feedcontributions&feedformat=atom&user=MichelleMcClurken Wiki - User contributions [en]2026-09-18T22:36:53ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.22.0https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_14_Questions/Comments328--Week 14 Questions/Comments2008-04-23T14:33:30Z<p>Michelle: /* Mariah Burton Nelson, “Sex and Sports” – 1994 */</p>
<hr />
<div>MP, 459-469, 506-524<br />
<br />
== Roe v. Wade Decision (both Blackmun’s majority ruling and White’s dissent). ==<br />
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<br />
== Lindsey Van Gelder reports on “Women vs. the NY Times” in Ms. in 1978. ==<br />
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<br />
== Connaught Marshner explains what social conservatives really want, 1988. ==<br />
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<br />
== Planned Parenthood versus Casey, 1992 ==<br />
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== Gloria Anzaldua soeakes about her identity, 1999 ==<br />
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== Asma Gull Hasan, Pakistani-American, 2000 ==<br />
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I learned a lot this week in the reading about "First- and Second- Generation Immigrant Women Speak of Living Inbetween Cultures," particularly about Asma Gull Hasan. I learned a great deal about the Muslim culture from her reading that I had only assumed before from the skewed material I've seen from the news. I did not realize that the Qur'an gave women that kind of status and honored them as much as they did. It really was an interesting reading and a learning experience at the same time! --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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== Kyoko Mori, Japanese-American, 2000 ==<br />
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== Jamala McFadden’s Story of 1990s Welfare Assistance, 2002 ==<br />
This is a "feel good story". I love hearing about women beating the odds,for an education, with children no less. Welfare made a difference in McFadden's life because she had drive and ambition and used government assistance to better her life. This is what assistance if for. Too often we hear of people misusing welfare therefore giving a stereotype to its recipients. McFadden spoke of the changes made in the welfare system while she was still in college. She said she was lucky to be "grandfathered" in. I do feel that daycare assistance should be offered to women attending college. To me, this would be money better spent than on women who have a minimum wage jobs. The thought would be like McFadden, these education seeking women would break the chain. --Nikole Wellman<br />
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== Rebecca Walker on the 3rd Wave, 2005 ==<br />
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== Ms.Magazine on 5 rights women could lose, 2005 ==<br />
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Well, this is a frightening thought, however, if this was to happen.... move over Betty Friedan. We will have to make room in the history books for a new set of radicals. This country is not ready for the "Girl Power" we all have. <br />
In all seriousness, These rights will never be taken away. Fist of all, we may just have our first women President in office. There are too many women in powerful positions to loose these five rights Ms. Magazines speaks of. People such as Hillary Clinton, my mother-in-law, Dr. M and myself would not take women take a step back. Before taking this class, I really had no idea how far we've come....We've come too far to go back--Nikole Wellman<br />
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== US, 565-586 – Rebecca Tsosie, “Changing Women: The Crosscurrents of American Indian Female Identity.”—1988 ==<br />
Prior to reading Rebecca Tsosie's essay "Changing Women: The Crosscurrents of American Indian Feminine Identity," I had never known Native American literature to be so profoundly developed. After reading the article, I definitely have a deep respect for the Native American literature genre. Maybe I will read some of it someday.--Justin Mattos<br />
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Like Justin, I too never realized just how developed the Native American literature was... and it feels silly for it to just now be dawning on me from the stories I have read related to Native Americans and the stories, songs, poems, et cetera that were mentioned in the stories/articles. I wonder why we don't have more of the Native American literature in public school... we seem to have so much in the way of English and American.... --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I agree with Justin, I never realized the extent of Native American literature out there. I have read some picture books that were designed to teach lessons to children, but other than that it never really occurred to me to look to see what else was there. I also too was curious as to why we don't see more of this genre of literature in schools. We have so many varieties of literature in the schools, why not include a few more? --Kellye Sorber<br />
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“Changing Women…” by Rebecca Tsosie discusses the stereotypes that have been created about Indian women through literature and the media. On page 567 she states that “The princess/squaw dichotomy does not even approach the historical realities of Indian women…the primary factor in perceptions of both European women and Indian women became their definition in terms of their relationship with males.” I see her point, but it’s not something that’s special to Indian women. Stereotypes are developed and portrayed for almost any other type of way you can classify a person. In one of the first few weeks of class we read about how the views of Spanish-Mexican women were stereotyped and romanticized through the image that Barceló created for herself… --Jessica Kilday<br />
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<br />
MAW, Chapters 11-13<br />
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== Cathy Tuley, “Clerical Workers Unite,” 1976. ==<br />
Cathy Tuley's involvement in organizing clerical workers helped her personal development by becoming more assertive and self-reliant in the workplace. She refers to utilizing this new found assertiveness in her personal life saying "Sometimes it's kind of rough when you do that to your husband! 'Give me the fact,' you know. 'Prove what you just said.'" This made me think that their was a duality that women had to play between work and home. In work she could be somewhat assertive (depending on her position), and in the home she was expected to remain a subservient role to the man of the house.--LisaM<br />
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== Crystal Lee Sutton, “The Real ‘Norma Rae’ Tells Her Story,” 1986. ==<br />
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Reading "The Real 'Norma Rae' Tells her Story" by Crystal Lee Sutton sure does bring back memories. I remember the first time I dealt with someone like that and coming up with well-reasoned arguments and everything in an attempt to persuade them. It's weird, when someone is not doing what they are supposed to do, why would they actually extend to you common courtesies like honesty. It really doesn't make any sense.--Justin Mattos<br />
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== Susan Eisenberg, “Hard-Hatted Women,” 1988. ==<br />
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I thought the "Hard-hatted Women" essay in MAW was amazing! To learn that she became an electrician and managed to hide her pregnancy for 6 months before finally going on maternity-type leaving was just incredible! I was sad that she had a miscarriage, but was really impressed with how her co-workers supported her. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I understand fully how Eisenberg felt. I found out I was pregnant with my my second son, Nathan, the week before 9/11. We lived in the NJ/NY area at the time and EVERYONE was in fear of loosing their jobs. My fear went a step further thinking if anyone would loose their jobs it would be me. I kept my pregnancy to myself for a while. Then I got over my new hormonal state and dared anyone to discriminate against me. Unlike Eisenberg, I was not in the construction industry and It was 2002. --Nikole Wellman<br />
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== Jessie Lopez De La Cruz, “Organizing the Farm Workers,” 1980 ==<br />
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<br />
== Johnnie Tillmon, “Women on Welfare,” 1972 ==<br />
The movie "Claudine" starring James Earl Jones and Diahann Carroll presents some of the issues raised in "Women on Welfare" by Johnnie Tillmon. When I saw it a few years ago, I remember thinking about how typically 70's it seemed. True it was released in '74, but what I mean is that it seemed to depict exactly what it meant to be black in the 1970's. Has anyone else seen it?--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
<br />
== Mariah Burton Nelson, “Sex and Sports” – 1994 ==<br />
I realize it is the point of the view of the author, but I honestly never thought there were so many lesbians in women sports leagues. I just never associated the two. Sure, I've heard other people associate women sports stars and lesbianism, but I never took them seriously. Wow, that's interesting.--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I too was surprised to learn about how many women in sports were actually lesbians in this article. I had never heard anything ever reported on it. I did know that women fought hard to get recognition like the men did in their sorts. I remember watching a show on the women's US soccer team and how they fought for better pay like the male US soccer team as well as how Mia Hamm (sp?) was the one who helped them get that recoginition by doing the Pert shampoo commercials. Even when I think about it today, how many womens sports are actually on TV, I can think of plenty of male sports, like football, baseball, basketball, but women the only one or two I can think of is golf, and I think basketball, I could be wrong on that one though.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
== Marissa Navarro, “Becoming La Mujer” – 1998 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Nancy Mairs, “Women and Disabilities” – 1986 ==<br />
I found the Why me? Why not? portion of "Women and Disabilities" by Nancy Mairs to be fairly interesting. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
<br />
== Abra Fortune Chernik, “The Voice of an Anorexic” – 1995 ==<br />
<br />
This story really saddened me, because of how this girl viewed her self for so long. I was just glad that it had a happy ending, and that she was lucky enough to have survived as long as she did with this disease. This article just goes to prove that every time period through out the history of women there is an expected stereotype that is portrayed in culture and especially media like for this woman. For example during WWII media portrayed women as working to help to the counry but as soon as the men returned home they were happy to go back to being house wives, which in many cases wasn't true. For Abra Chernik, magazines of pretty skinny models was the new portrait of women, and often still is today.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
== Eve Ensler, “The Vagina Monologues” – 1997 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Susan Faludi, “The Backlash Against Feminism” – 1991 ==<br />
I thought it was interesting to read “The Backlash against Feminism” by Susan Faludi. In it, she points out that even though politicians and the media are continually boasting that women have indeed reached equality and every opportunity is open to them, there is another front that these people are overlooking, and that is emotional. Women still face continual pressure by the media to conform to what is expected of them. As a result there are increasing stories, such as the one by Abra Chernik, of “stress-induced disorders.” It seems as though we are now entering a time where politics may not influence a woman’s limitations in society as much as popular culture. --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
<br />
== Anita Hill, “A Woman of Conscience” – 1991 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Katie Roiphe, “Date Rape: Hysteria or Epidemic?” – 1991 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Christine Hoff Sommers, “Who Stole Feminism?” – 1994 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== United States v. Virginia (1996), “Equal Protection Under the Law” [VMI case] – 1996 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Jennifer Baumgardner and Amy Richards, “A Third Wave Feminist Manifesta” – 2000 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Charlotte Bunch, “Global Feminism” – 1995 [at the UN Beijing Women’s Conference] ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Gloria Anzaldua, “The Borderlands” – 1987 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Wow, the head chef of the Roosevelt Hotel in New York City doesn't seem to be that prestigious, if Velma James's 1976 photograph "A Day in the Kitchen" means anything. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
It was kind of strange seeing the photo of Marion Jones in the book.--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
<br />
Must have been strange being a Stanford graduate with a degree in psychology and being asked to go to charm school.--Justin Mattos</div>Michellehttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_14_Questions/Comments328--Week 14 Questions/Comments2008-04-23T14:28:14Z<p>Michelle: /* Abra Fortune Chernik, “The Voice of an Anorexic” – 1995 */</p>
<hr />
<div>MP, 459-469, 506-524<br />
<br />
== Roe v. Wade Decision (both Blackmun’s majority ruling and White’s dissent). ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Lindsey Van Gelder reports on “Women vs. the NY Times” in Ms. in 1978. ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Connaught Marshner explains what social conservatives really want, 1988. ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Planned Parenthood versus Casey, 1992 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Gloria Anzaldua soeakes about her identity, 1999 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Asma Gull Hasan, Pakistani-American, 2000 ==<br />
<br />
I learned a lot this week in the reading about "First- and Second- Generation Immigrant Women Speak of Living Inbetween Cultures," particularly about Asma Gull Hasan. I learned a great deal about the Muslim culture from her reading that I had only assumed before from the skewed material I've seen from the news. I did not realize that the Qur'an gave women that kind of status and honored them as much as they did. It really was an interesting reading and a learning experience at the same time! --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
<br />
== Kyoko Mori, Japanese-American, 2000 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Jamala McFadden’s Story of 1990s Welfare Assistance, 2002 ==<br />
This is a "feel good story". I love hearing about women beating the odds,for an education, with children no less. Welfare made a difference in McFadden's life because she had drive and ambition and used government assistance to better her life. This is what assistance if for. Too often we hear of people misusing welfare therefore giving a stereotype to its recipients. McFadden spoke of the changes made in the welfare system while she was still in college. She said she was lucky to be "grandfathered" in. I do feel that daycare assistance should be offered to women attending college. To me, this would be money better spent than on women who have a minimum wage jobs. The thought would be like McFadden, these education seeking women would break the chain. --Nikole Wellman<br />
<br />
== Rebecca Walker on the 3rd Wave, 2005 ==<br />
<br />
== Ms.Magazine on 5 rights women could lose, 2005 ==<br />
<br />
Well, this is a frightening thought, however, if this was to happen.... move over Betty Friedan. We will have to make room in the history books for a new set of radicals. This country is not ready for the "Girl Power" we all have. <br />
In all seriousness, These rights will never be taken away. Fist of all, we may just have our first women President in office. There are too many women in powerful positions to loose these five rights Ms. Magazines speaks of. People such as Hillary Clinton, my mother-in-law, Dr. M and myself would not take women take a step back. Before taking this class, I really had no idea how far we've come....We've come too far to go back--Nikole Wellman<br />
<br />
== US, 565-586 – Rebecca Tsosie, “Changing Women: The Crosscurrents of American Indian Female Identity.”—1988 ==<br />
Prior to reading Rebecca Tsosie's essay "Changing Women: The Crosscurrents of American Indian Feminine Identity," I had never known Native American literature to be so profoundly developed. After reading the article, I definitely have a deep respect for the Native American literature genre. Maybe I will read some of it someday.--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Like Justin, I too never realized just how developed the Native American literature was... and it feels silly for it to just now be dawning on me from the stories I have read related to Native Americans and the stories, songs, poems, et cetera that were mentioned in the stories/articles. I wonder why we don't have more of the Native American literature in public school... we seem to have so much in the way of English and American.... --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I agree with Justin, I never realized the extent of Native American literature out there. I have read some picture books that were designed to teach lessons to children, but other than that it never really occurred to me to look to see what else was there. I also too was curious as to why we don't see more of this genre of literature in schools. We have so many varieties of literature in the schools, why not include a few more? --Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
“Changing Women…” by Rebecca Tsosie discusses the stereotypes that have been created about Indian women through literature and the media. On page 567 she states that “The princess/squaw dichotomy does not even approach the historical realities of Indian women…the primary factor in perceptions of both European women and Indian women became their definition in terms of their relationship with males.” I see her point, but it’s not something that’s special to Indian women. Stereotypes are developed and portrayed for almost any other type of way you can classify a person. In one of the first few weeks of class we read about how the views of Spanish-Mexican women were stereotyped and romanticized through the image that Barceló created for herself… --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
MAW, Chapters 11-13<br />
<br />
== Cathy Tuley, “Clerical Workers Unite,” 1976. ==<br />
Cathy Tuley's involvement in organizing clerical workers helped her personal development by becoming more assertive and self-reliant in the workplace. She refers to utilizing this new found assertiveness in her personal life saying "Sometimes it's kind of rough when you do that to your husband! 'Give me the fact,' you know. 'Prove what you just said.'" This made me think that their was a duality that women had to play between work and home. In work she could be somewhat assertive (depending on her position), and in the home she was expected to remain a subservient role to the man of the house.--LisaM<br />
<br />
== Crystal Lee Sutton, “The Real ‘Norma Rae’ Tells Her Story,” 1986. ==<br />
<br />
Reading "The Real 'Norma Rae' Tells her Story" by Crystal Lee Sutton sure does bring back memories. I remember the first time I dealt with someone like that and coming up with well-reasoned arguments and everything in an attempt to persuade them. It's weird, when someone is not doing what they are supposed to do, why would they actually extend to you common courtesies like honesty. It really doesn't make any sense.--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
== Susan Eisenberg, “Hard-Hatted Women,” 1988. ==<br />
<br />
I thought the "Hard-hatted Women" essay in MAW was amazing! To learn that she became an electrician and managed to hide her pregnancy for 6 months before finally going on maternity-type leaving was just incredible! I was sad that she had a miscarriage, but was really impressed with how her co-workers supported her. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I understand fully how Eisenberg felt. I found out I was pregnant with my my second son, Nathan, the week before 9/11. We lived in the NJ/NY area at the time and EVERYONE was in fear of loosing their jobs. My fear went a step further thinking if anyone would loose their jobs it would be me. I kept my pregnancy to myself for a while. Then I got over my new hormonal state and dared anyone to discriminate against me. Unlike Eisenberg, I was not in the construction industry and It was 2002. --Nikole Wellman<br />
<br />
== Jessie Lopez De La Cruz, “Organizing the Farm Workers,” 1980 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Johnnie Tillmon, “Women on Welfare,” 1972 ==<br />
The movie "Claudine" starring James Earl Jones and Diahann Carroll presents some of the issues raised in "Women on Welfare" by Johnnie Tillmon. When I saw it a few years ago, I remember thinking about how typically 70's it seemed. True it was released in '74, but what I mean is that it seemed to depict exactly what it meant to be black in the 1970's. Has anyone else seen it?--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
<br />
== Mariah Burton Nelson, “Sex and Sports” – 1994 ==<br />
I realize it is the point of the view of the author, but I honestly never thought there were so many lesbians in women sports leagues. I just never associated the two. Sure, I've heard other people associate women sports stars and lesbianism, but I never took them seriously. Wow, that's interesting.--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
<br />
== Marissa Navarro, “Becoming La Mujer” – 1998 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Nancy Mairs, “Women and Disabilities” – 1986 ==<br />
I found the Why me? Why not? portion of "Women and Disabilities" by Nancy Mairs to be fairly interesting. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
<br />
== Abra Fortune Chernik, “The Voice of an Anorexic” – 1995 ==<br />
<br />
This story really saddened me, because of how this girl viewed her self for so long. I was just glad that it had a happy ending, and that she was lucky enough to have survived as long as she did with this disease. This article just goes to prove that every time period through out the history of women there is an expected stereotype that is portrayed in culture and especially media like for this woman. For example during WWII media portrayed women as working to help to the counry but as soon as the men returned home they were happy to go back to being house wives, which in many cases wasn't true. For Abra Chernik, magazines of pretty skinny models was the new portrait of women, and often still is today.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
== Eve Ensler, “The Vagina Monologues” – 1997 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Susan Faludi, “The Backlash Against Feminism” – 1991 ==<br />
I thought it was interesting to read “The Backlash against Feminism” by Susan Faludi. In it, she points out that even though politicians and the media are continually boasting that women have indeed reached equality and every opportunity is open to them, there is another front that these people are overlooking, and that is emotional. Women still face continual pressure by the media to conform to what is expected of them. As a result there are increasing stories, such as the one by Abra Chernik, of “stress-induced disorders.” It seems as though we are now entering a time where politics may not influence a woman’s limitations in society as much as popular culture. --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
<br />
== Anita Hill, “A Woman of Conscience” – 1991 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Katie Roiphe, “Date Rape: Hysteria or Epidemic?” – 1991 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Christine Hoff Sommers, “Who Stole Feminism?” – 1994 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== United States v. Virginia (1996), “Equal Protection Under the Law” [VMI case] – 1996 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Jennifer Baumgardner and Amy Richards, “A Third Wave Feminist Manifesta” – 2000 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Charlotte Bunch, “Global Feminism” – 1995 [at the UN Beijing Women’s Conference] ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Gloria Anzaldua, “The Borderlands” – 1987 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Wow, the head chef of the Roosevelt Hotel in New York City doesn't seem to be that prestigious, if Velma James's 1976 photograph "A Day in the Kitchen" means anything. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
It was kind of strange seeing the photo of Marion Jones in the book.--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
<br />
Must have been strange being a Stanford graduate with a degree in psychology and being asked to go to charm school.--Justin Mattos</div>Michellehttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_13_Questions/Comments328--Week 13 Questions/Comments2008-04-16T00:06:14Z<p>Michelle: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''In addition to the interview writing assignment, everyone is expected to look over the other interviews and discuss them in our wiki here. What patterns do you see? What experiences stand out? Did these interviews challenge or meet with the trends we've talked about in class?<br />
<br />
NOTE: You do not need to post about the reading for April 17 (though you are responsible for reading it).'''<br />
<br />
<br />
When looking through all of the interviews, there were a lot of different trends that stand out. The first thing I noticed was that many of the women who grew up in rural areas had similar experiences in small school houses and growing up with farm life. Some of them noted that they had less technology available to them that many other women, who lived in less rural areas, started using earlier. --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I think it is important to consider geography when looking at some of the different experiences of women in the 20th century. I don’t know how much it was emphasized in my paper, but in my interview with Pat Teevan she said that women were expected to stay at home until they were married, but she didn’t marry. If she stayed in Boston then she would have been expected to live in her parent’s house, that’s why she moved to DC. This was also seen in the interview with Mary Nolan in Pennsylvania, as a single girl, “she never considered getting her own apartment.” When looking at the interviews of many of the women who grew up in the north (Massachusetts, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, NY, etc.), it seems like a lot of these women were more likely to be independent. --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
After looking through a lot of the papers the trend I noticed was that all these women had some type of education. Also a lot of theme weren't feminists, however their mothers did encourage them to go to school until high school and even a good amount went to college. But a good majority did leave high school get a job and get married, a trend that I noticed is a lot of them had children with in the first year or so of their marriages. There was no wait period like today, some people wait 5-6 years. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
My grandma made a point of noting that when she was in high school her mother made sure she learned something she could use later in life. She took shorthand, typing and stenography, all skills used in clerical work, some of the other women I noticed had taken similar courses and took jobs as secretaries. The women in a lot of these papers took the jobs that were saved for women, secretarial and school teachers. My grandma before she even finished school was doing some clerical work, and when she graduated she went into the military but ended up being a secretary in the pentagon. All these women were your typical American women, taking the stereotypical job and then became a homemaker. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
Commenting on Jessica's point on how northern girls seemed like they were more important. I feel like this could because of the fact that a large portion of the north was cities, NY, CONN is very close to NY, Mass has Boston, with all these cities there are mor job options. Also girls that wanted to get out of their rural homes went to Urban area to find a job an a place to live and as we know there are thousands of apartments women could move into. From what we have learned, women in the past who went to the cities were always more independent, because they had left home. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
After reading accounts of numerous women's lives it becomes quite clear how rare it was for women living during the 20th century to become professionals. Even when these women did go to college and were encouraged by their mothers to be independent, it seemed as if most ended up finding a husband and adapting to his lifestyle. I think that there would be such a drastic difference in the probability of getting an interview with a professional woman today. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
Something I noticed alot in the interviews were how many women actually went to college. That relates a lot to what we've been looking at in this class, because so many women did go to college but it oftened so to be a waist because they didn't really use their education, and that is apparent too in these interviews. Some either thought they were going to college but then suddenly decided to get married instead, or others did go to college and then they got married but still ended up staying home once married or had children. In one interview it talked about how married women didn't work or simply weren't hired as well as didn't come back to work at all once married or pregnant, which is something we've talked a lot about in this class. Even in my own interview, she realized that a lot her friends got married right out of high school and if you didn't then you went off to college.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
Also I there were several women who experienced war at one point in time in their life, whether it was WWII or Vietnam, they remember it and the affects it had on their family. I liked Jessica's remark about geography, because two of the interviews (maybe more) were women who were from West Viginia, and I thought it was particularly interesting how segregation played no part in their part of the country, and even how her school had a black student body president. I think that is amazing and even goes to prove that racism wasn't everywhere, even though it was wide spread through the country that there was at least once place were it didn't seem to matter. I wonder if there were any other places like that? Because you mostly here about the segragation in the south, well what about the rest of the country?--Michelle M.</div>Michellehttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_12_Questions/Comments328--Week 12 Questions/Comments2008-04-07T20:03:38Z<p>Michelle: </p>
<hr />
<div>I enjoyed the piece this week that focused mostly on Mrs. Rose Parks in MAW. I always knew the general story about Mrs. Parks, but never details to this extent. I knew there was a bus boycott, but I didn't realize it went on for a year. Just think of the revenue the bus companies suffered. I wonder why it lasted so long. Mrs. Parks really was a remarkable woman though. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
<br />
Mrs. Naomi Craig's interview really lets the reader get a feel for how life was for her and her children. There were hard times, but they dealt with them. She discussed the problems she had with finding a house and a job just because of the color of her skin. She also never agreed with the Vietnam and what it did to children and their mother's who couldn't afford to send their children to college to get out of the draft. I know my dad had a draft card # for the Vietnam war and almost had to go... they got within 10 calls of his number before the war was declared over. I would hate to know the feeling that just because you can't afford college, you HAVE to go fight that war... --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
Naomi Craig's interview, she talks about how her and her husband had a hard time buying a home, and she addressed the issue how blacks also had a hard time getting jobs. I had to read "The Orgins of the Urban Crisis" for this week in my American Landscape class and it talks about exactly what she has adressed here in her interview. You would think that realtors wouldn't care who they were selling too, as long as they were making money doing it. I also couldn't believe how difficult they made it for black people to get a job. Also the book talked about how the realtors would use the fact that whites wanted to move if one black person moved into their neighborhood to their advantage to profit more. Although it only talked about the city of Detroit this obviously happened in other places. Most neighborhoods today are still mostly one race. Do we do it on purpose or not still? How many of you have come from a mostly white or mostly black neighborhood?--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
I too have heard of Rosa Parks story but never the details like this article had. What I thought was so interesting was how a bus boycott lasted a year and how all of the black people denied having anything to do with it, and their white bosses went along with the lie, because they needed people to do stuff around their house, and take care of their children. Not only that but everyone new that everyone was lying and there was nothing that anyone could do about it other than cops writing stupid tickets. When the boycott was over I wonder if their were still problems (I imagine so), because there is always that one person who ruins it for everyone, or starts trouble.--Michelle M.</div>Michellehttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_12_Questions/Comments328--Week 12 Questions/Comments2008-04-07T19:51:45Z<p>Michelle: </p>
<hr />
<div>I enjoyed the piece this week that focused mostly on Mrs. Rose Parks in MAW. I always knew the general story about Mrs. Parks, but never details to this extent. I knew there was a bus boycott, but I didn't realize it went on for a year. Just think of the revenue the bus companies suffered. I wonder why it lasted so long. Mrs. Parks really was a remarkable woman though. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
<br />
Mrs. Naomi Craig's interview really lets the reader get a feel for how life was for her and her children. There were hard times, but they dealt with them. She discussed the problems she had with finding a house and a job just because of the color of her skin. She also never agreed with the Vietnam and what it did to children and their mother's who couldn't afford to send their children to college to get out of the draft. I know my dad had a draft card # for the Vietnam war and almost had to go... they got within 10 calls of his number before the war was declared over. I would hate to know the feeling that just because you can't afford college, you HAVE to go fight that war... --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
Naomi Craig's interview, she talks about how her and her husband had a hard time buying a home, and she addressed the issue how blacks also had a hard time getting jobs. I had to read "The Orgins of the Urban Crisis" for this week in my American Landscape class and it talks about exactly what she has adressed here in her interview. You would think that realtors wouldn't care who they were selling too, as long as they were making money doing it. I also couldn't believe how difficult they made it for black people to get a job. Also the book talked about how the realtors would use the fact that whites wanted to move if one black person moved into their neighborhood to their advantage to profit more. Although it only talked about the city of Detroit this obviously happened in other places. Most neighborhoods today are still mostly one race. Do we do it on purpose or not still? How many of you have come from a mostly white or mostly black neighborhood?--Michelle M.</div>Michellehttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_12_Questions/Comments328--Week 12 Questions/Comments2008-04-07T19:44:49Z<p>Michelle: </p>
<hr />
<div>I enjoyed the piece this week that focused mostly on Mrs. Rose Parks in MAW. I always knew the general story about Mrs. Parks, but never details to this extent. I knew there was a bus boycott, but I didn't realize it went on for a year. Just think of the revenue the bus companies suffered. I wonder why it lasted so long. Mrs. Parks really was a remarkable woman though. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
<br />
Mrs. Naomi Craig's interview really lets the reader get a feel for how life was for her and her children. There were hard times, but they dealt with them. She discussed the problems she had with finding a house and a job just because of the color of her skin. She also never agreed with the Vietnam and what it did to children and their mother's who couldn't afford to send their children to college to get out of the draft. I know my dad had a draft card # for the Vietnam war and almost had to go... they got within 10 calls of his number before the war was declared over. I would hate to know the feeling that just because you can't afford college, you HAVE to go fight that war... --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
Naomi Craig's interview, she talks about how her and her husband had a hard time buying a home, and she addressed the issue how blacks also had a hard time getting jobs. I had to read "The Orgins of the Urban Crisis" for this week in my American Landscape class and it talks about exactly what she has adressed here in her interview. You would think that realtors wouldn't care who they were selling too, as long as they were making money doing it. I also couldn't believe how difficult they made it for black people to get a job. Also the book talked about how the realtors would use the fact that whites wanted to move if one black person moved into their neighborhood to their advantage to profit more. Although it only talked about the city of Detroit this obviously happened in other places. Most neighborhoods today are still mostly one race. Whether we do it on purpose or not, how many of you have come from a mostly white or mostly black neighborhood?--Michelle M.</div>Michellehttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_11_Questions/Comments328--Week 11 Questions/Comments2008-04-02T23:17:17Z<p>Michelle: </p>
<hr />
<div>== Debate topics or comparative questions ==<br />
Should Rosie the Riveter go home and raise a family or continue working? --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
== Betty Jeanne Boggs, "Balancing Work and Family" ==<br />
<br />
I really liked the article "Balancing Work and Family." I really loved how this family was backwards, even for the 50s-60s. The husband was still trying to finish school, the wife is working, they aren't that worried about having children. They accept it when it completely surprises them. I really like the fact that Betty Boggs worked so much and she actually liked her job, she got to choose her job, I also do like that she did try working during her first child. The fact that she at least gave it a shot was impressive to me. When she had her second child it was understandable that she wanted to stay home, also her husband by then didn't need her to be working all the time to support the family. I know there is a stereotype of families from the 50s, they are in their perfectly manicured houses and have the perfect families were dad works and mom cooks and cleans all day. But was the manicured family real, or was it created by the media? and were families like the Boggs just as "real" as the ''perfect'' manicured family?<br />
-- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
I also really liked the article by Betty Jeanne Boggs. It really struck me as out of the time period because of the wife working so the husband could finish school. Also the attitude of if 'one can't go and have fun, well, the other wont go either because its not fair.' I thought that the relationship she and her husband had was amazing, especially for the 1950s and 60s. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I agree with the above two posts, although this article definitely showed me that the idealistic picture of family during the 50's wasnt real, and although that was a bit jarring because i had never really thought that such a modern relationship existed back then, it was nice to see that it was possible. Also i feel that often we assume that relationships in the past were purely based on the children both currently present or expected, and that the actual relationship between two people was never prioritized, i like that this is the opposite, this couple truly seems to care for one another if they are blatantly defying the stereotypes of the day in order to make each other's dream possible. --Julie Robert<br />
<br />
== Wilma Mankiller, "Indian Relocation" - 1993 about life in the 1950s ==<br />
<br />
After all these years, the government still felt that there was an ‘Indian Problem” that needed to be resolved. The only way they believed to settle it was by removing the Indians from their reservations. Did the government think that just because they were not holding the Native Americans at gun point meant that it was not seen as another Trail of Tears? –Ashley Scutari<br />
<br />
== Joanna Rubin, "An Unplanned Pregnancy" 1950s ==<br />
<br />
This article really made me sad because the author mentioned feeling so alone because she didn't feel that she could tell her dad about the pregnancy. I really wonder how many young women today still feel this way, since abortions are still a very heated debate in today's society. I would imagine that many young women today also feel this sense of loneliness that Joanna Rubin felt during this time in her life. - Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
This article made me sad as well because she had no one to turn to other than the guy that got her pregnant, however I thought it was interesting that they went to some random place in Puerto Rico with a doctor named Pardo. Even though the boyfriend found out about this place through a friend it was no wonder she thought she might end up at some little dark room clinic that really wasn't lagit. She took a huge chance on flying out to this place that she really new nothing about. I would have been scared out of my mind too. There were places in the US that did these illegal abortions so I wonder if many other women went out of the US for abortions?--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
== Ethel Barol Taylor, "Women Strike for Peace" ==<br />
The article "Women Strike for Peace" by Ethel Barol Taylor really hit home for me. She talks about handing out leaflets saying "Take your children off milk," and she had very good reason to do so. The nuclear fallout from the testing of the atomic bomb at Los Alamos settled over central Iowa to central Missouri, and some unoccupied parts of Wyoming. My mothers entire family is from central Missouri, and she grew up in central Iowa. The radiation from the fallout affected the grass, which the dairy cows grazed on, and the radiation got into the milk. We are now seeing the results of people who drank radiation poisoned milk in the late 1940's and the 1950's. My grandfather developed thyroid cancer. My grandmother had a gouiter. My mother had thyroid cancer - she had to have her entire thyroid removed. Many of her cousins also developed cancer. So good for the ladies of Women Strike for Peace! Thanks for trying to raise awareness! - Sarah H.<br />
<br />
The article was also interesting in that these women ware able to protest in such a lady-like manner that they were able to avoid any harsh criticism. Their handling of protests and of HUAC investigations was so impeccable that HUAC and those like them were being ridiculed. It was an interesting way to use the constraints of the time in their favor. - Sarah H.<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Rachel Carson Answers her Critics - 1963 ==<br />
I found this article to be fairly strange since I always associated the controversy regarding DDT and other insecticides with the environmental issues and campaigns of the 1980's. Is that true or am I misremembering that? --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
== Louisa Randall Church - "Parents, Architects of Peace" 1946 ==<br />
The first reading in MP by Louisa Randall I thought was very interesting. It takes on more of a psychology perspective to parenting as she outlines what she believes are the major duties that parents have for their children. First of all, when talking about raising the children, Randall uses the term “parents” in the plural and discusses the equal responsibility of the man and the woman in raising the children, which shows a definite shift from the “women in the home” attitude that had prevailed previously. Also, it shows the growing responsibilities that parents have toward children. It extends the previous belief that women were responsible for raising moral children further to include “love and affection, equal rights, discipline, freedom, enrichment, cooperation, and education.” I also found it funny in the end when she suggested that “School officials, everywhere, and citizens, too, should give active support to the idea of training for parenthood…” (412). --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I also found this article interesting but what stood out to me was the reference to parents (plural) and the emphasis she seems to place on equality within the household. I'm wondering how many women during this period shared this ideal since this is also the period where women were shifting back to the world of the home and were taking on more responsibility for raising the children, which places more importance on her influence than the fathers, which is not equality at all. So I found this article interesting but am slightly confused as to how common her point of view was during this period. - Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
== Farnham and Lundberg, Modem Woman: The Lost Sex (1947) ==<br />
<br />
Several of the other readings dealt with the increasing notion of women working outside the home, in addition to raising a family. As Marnia Farnham points out, the progress that has been made in terms of opportunities and technologies for women “serves less to clarify and simplify her life than to complicate it with conflict piled on conflict…” (412). She goes further to say that women are no longer making progress for feminization but have instead begun to become more masculine. Is she suggesting that these women are gradually leaving their traditional gender roles and should be classified as women only in a biological sense? In order to be equal do they both first have to be defined as “masculine?” --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I find this article interesting because I actually see a lot of parallels between this period and what some people today still believe. First, I noticed that they attack the idea of child day care systems that, according to them, leave a child unsatisfied. In today's society I know many women who feel that day care, at least for children below pre-school age, is a bad idea because it doesn't teach them the discipline that children need to learn. I found this connection to today's world very striking as I was reading this article.-Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
I am not sure if a woman helped write this article, but I find it interesting that there existed a significant proportion of women activists who did not believe women should work outside of the home and the ideals of the Cult of Domesticity. It almost seems as if it is one of those cases where society's ideals have permanently lowered an individual's self-esteem. I am very tempted to conclude that it is a very similar lowering of self-esteem as that described in Brown v. Board, but I wouldn't want to get ahead of myself. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
== Pauli Murray, 1947 ==<br />
I found it interesting that the constant theme of more women than men attending college appeared in this article. I guess women have always gone to college in greater numbers than men when given the chance. How strange is that? --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
== Joyce Johnson - 1955 ==<br />
The article in MP, "Nonconformist Joyce Johnson..." was very interesting. I really liked he reasoning for sleeping around or before marriage. Since you have stayed so late it didn't matter, as long as you didn't go home. So instead of going home, you find some guy to go home with. First of all, with rules like that you are asking to get pregnant. This account however, was so shady, the means of getting an abortion is insane. She had to be taken by a sketchy guy, to this horribly mean Dr. who frowns on abortions but will perform them illegally. Did all Doctors frown upon their patients when they give abortions? I feel that if you are going to risk your life (not meaning death but imprisonment) and medical license you must be pro choice. I think the sketchiest part of all is when the procedure it over with, this "escort" invites you back to fire island, its almost like he is saying, want to get pregnant again this weekend? --- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Letter from black reader to ''The Ladder'', in 1957 ==<br />
<br />
I am impressed how an African American lesbian in the 1950’s would be so open to write to this editor especially being so open with her sexuality. “The Ladder” seems like another great stepping stone for women to be heard. Were there many other magazines like this as well? –Ashley Scutari<br />
<br />
== Betty Friedan, "The Problem That Has No Name" ==<br />
In this reading I believe that the "Problem That Has No Name" is some kind of depression. I say that because obviously these women are lacking something from their life. They feel unfulfilled, somethings missing. They want to be recongnized for something more than just being a house wife, mother and so on. I think too because of this expected role women are to play/be was so strong during that time that they felt they could do nothing about it, because they couldn't even really put a name to what they felt. Having a job meant a lot to most of these women. Betty Jeanne Bogg's reading just proves that she is one of many who love there job very much. She states that several times through out her reading. She loved her children and in the end was glad she did stay home with them but in the beginning she was really torn because she "really enjoyed that job." (210) Also in Vicki L. Ruiz's article I thought it was interesting how she mentions that "wages gave women a feeling of independence." (349) Even though her article is about mexican american women, I think that statement holds true for all women during that time. Having that indepence of a job and earning their own money filled the missing thing, and was or could have been the fix I think to the "Problem That Has No Name." --Michelle M.<br />
<br />
== Rickie Solinger, politics of abortion, 1950-1970 ==<br />
I actually felt a little dumb with this week's readings. There was a type of abortion that was mentioned in multiple articles, but the one I remember off the top of my head was "Women and the Politics of Hospital Abortion Committees, 1950-1970." They mentioned 'therapeutic abortions' and either I missed where they they discussed what it is or it is one those things they figure the audience knows what they were talking about. I have no idea what that kind of abortion is, I have never heard of it until this reading. --Ashley Wilkins (feeling a little dumb right now) <br />
<br />
<br />
== Vicki Ruiz, "'Star Struck': Acculturation, Adolescence, and Mexican American Women, 1920-1950" ==</div>Michellehttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_11_Questions/Comments328--Week 11 Questions/Comments2008-04-02T23:01:29Z<p>Michelle: </p>
<hr />
<div>== Debate topics or comparative questions ==<br />
Should Rosie the Riveter go home and raise a family or continue working? --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
== Betty Jeanne Boggs, "Balancing Work and Family" ==<br />
<br />
I really liked the article "Balancing Work and Family." I really loved how this family was backwards, even for the 50s-60s. The husband was still trying to finish school, the wife is working, they aren't that worried about having children. They accept it when it completely surprises them. I really like the fact that Betty Boggs worked so much and she actually liked her job, she got to choose her job, I also do like that she did try working during her first child. The fact that she at least gave it a shot was impressive to me. When she had her second child it was understandable that she wanted to stay home, also her husband by then didn't need her to be working all the time to support the family. I know there is a stereotype of families from the 50s, they are in their perfectly manicured houses and have the perfect families were dad works and mom cooks and cleans all day. But was the manicured family real, or was it created by the media? and were families like the Boggs just as "real" as the ''perfect'' manicured family?<br />
-- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
I also really liked the article by Betty Jeanne Boggs. It really struck me as out of the time period because of the wife working so the husband could finish school. Also the attitude of if 'one can't go and have fun, well, the other wont go either because its not fair.' I thought that the relationship she and her husband had was amazing, especially for the 1950s and 60s. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I agree with the above two posts, although this article definitely showed me that the idealistic picture of family during the 50's wasnt real, and although that was a bit jarring because i had never really thought that such a modern relationship existed back then, it was nice to see that it was possible. Also i feel that often we assume that relationships in the past were purely based on the children both currently present or expected, and that the actual relationship between two people was never prioritized, i like that this is the opposite, this couple truly seems to care for one another if they are blatantly defying the stereotypes of the day in order to make each other's dream possible. --Julie Robert<br />
<br />
== Wilma Mankiller, "Indian Relocation" - 1993 about life in the 1950s ==<br />
<br />
After all these years, the government still felt that there was an ‘Indian Problem” that needed to be resolved. The only way they believed to settle it was by removing the Indians from their reservations. Did the government think that just because they were not holding the Native Americans at gun point meant that it was not seen as another Trail of Tears? –Ashley Scutari<br />
<br />
== Joanna Rubin, "An Unplanned Pregnancy" 1950s ==<br />
<br />
This article really made me sad because the author mentioned feeling so alone because she didn't feel that she could tell her dad about the pregnancy. I really wonder how many young women today still feel this way, since abortions are still a very heated debate in today's society. I would imagine that many young women today also feel this sense of loneliness that Joanna Rubin felt during this time in her life. - Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
== Ethel Barol Taylor, "Women Strike for Peace" ==<br />
The article "Women Strike for Peace" by Ethel Barol Taylor really hit home for me. She talks about handing out leaflets saying "Take your children off milk," and she had very good reason to do so. The nuclear fallout from the testing of the atomic bomb at Los Alamos settled over central Iowa to central Missouri, and some unoccupied parts of Wyoming. My mothers entire family is from central Missouri, and she grew up in central Iowa. The radiation from the fallout affected the grass, which the dairy cows grazed on, and the radiation got into the milk. We are now seeing the results of people who drank radiation poisoned milk in the late 1940's and the 1950's. My grandfather developed thyroid cancer. My grandmother had a gouiter. My mother had thyroid cancer - she had to have her entire thyroid removed. Many of her cousins also developed cancer. So good for the ladies of Women Strike for Peace! Thanks for trying to raise awareness! - Sarah H.<br />
<br />
The article was also interesting in that these women ware able to protest in such a lady-like manner that they were able to avoid any harsh criticism. Their handling of protests and of HUAC investigations was so impeccable that HUAC and those like them were being ridiculed. It was an interesting way to use the constraints of the time in their favor. - Sarah H.<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Rachel Carson Answers her Critics - 1963 ==<br />
I found this article to be fairly strange since I always associated the controversy regarding DDT and other insecticides with the environmental issues and campaigns of the 1980's. Is that true or am I misremembering that? --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
== Louisa Randall Church - "Parents, Architects of Peace" 1946 ==<br />
The first reading in MP by Louisa Randall I thought was very interesting. It takes on more of a psychology perspective to parenting as she outlines what she believes are the major duties that parents have for their children. First of all, when talking about raising the children, Randall uses the term “parents” in the plural and discusses the equal responsibility of the man and the woman in raising the children, which shows a definite shift from the “women in the home” attitude that had prevailed previously. Also, it shows the growing responsibilities that parents have toward children. It extends the previous belief that women were responsible for raising moral children further to include “love and affection, equal rights, discipline, freedom, enrichment, cooperation, and education.” I also found it funny in the end when she suggested that “School officials, everywhere, and citizens, too, should give active support to the idea of training for parenthood…” (412). --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I also found this article interesting but what stood out to me was the reference to parents (plural) and the emphasis she seems to place on equality within the household. I'm wondering how many women during this period shared this ideal since this is also the period where women were shifting back to the world of the home and were taking on more responsibility for raising the children, which places more importance on her influence than the fathers, which is not equality at all. So I found this article interesting but am slightly confused as to how common her point of view was during this period. - Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
== Farnham and Lundberg, Modem Woman: The Lost Sex (1947) ==<br />
<br />
Several of the other readings dealt with the increasing notion of women working outside the home, in addition to raising a family. As Marnia Farnham points out, the progress that has been made in terms of opportunities and technologies for women “serves less to clarify and simplify her life than to complicate it with conflict piled on conflict…” (412). She goes further to say that women are no longer making progress for feminization but have instead begun to become more masculine. Is she suggesting that these women are gradually leaving their traditional gender roles and should be classified as women only in a biological sense? In order to be equal do they both first have to be defined as “masculine?” --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I find this article interesting because I actually see a lot of parallels between this period and what some people today still believe. First, I noticed that they attack the idea of child day care systems that, according to them, leave a child unsatisfied. In today's society I know many women who feel that day care, at least for children below pre-school age, is a bad idea because it doesn't teach them the discipline that children need to learn. I found this connection to today's world very striking as I was reading this article.-Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
I am not sure if a woman helped write this article, but I find it interesting that there existed a significant proportion of women activists who did not believe women should work outside of the home and the ideals of the Cult of Domesticity. It almost seems as if it is one of those cases where society's ideals have permanently lowered an individual's self-esteem. I am very tempted to conclude that it is a very similar lowering of self-esteem as that described in Brown v. Board, but I wouldn't want to get ahead of myself. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
== Pauli Murray, 1947 ==<br />
I found it interesting that the constant theme of more women than men attending college appeared in this article. I guess women have always gone to college in greater numbers than men when given the chance. How strange is that? --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
== Joyce Johnson - 1955 ==<br />
The article in MP, "Nonconformist Joyce Johnson..." was very interesting. I really liked he reasoning for sleeping around or before marriage. Since you have stayed so late it didn't matter, as long as you didn't go home. So instead of going home, you find some guy to go home with. First of all, with rules like that you are asking to get pregnant. This account however, was so shady, the means of getting an abortion is insane. She had to be taken by a sketchy guy, to this horribly mean Dr. who frowns on abortions but will perform them illegally. Did all Doctors frown upon their patients when they give abortions? I feel that if you are going to risk your life (not meaning death but imprisonment) and medical license you must be pro choice. I think the sketchiest part of all is when the procedure it over with, this "escort" invites you back to fire island, its almost like he is saying, want to get pregnant again this weekend? --- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Letter from black reader to ''The Ladder'', in 1957 ==<br />
<br />
I am impressed how an African American lesbian in the 1950’s would be so open to write to this editor especially being so open with her sexuality. “The Ladder” seems like another great stepping stone for women to be heard. Were there many other magazines like this as well? –Ashley Scutari<br />
<br />
== Betty Friedan, "The Problem That Has No Name" ==<br />
In this reading I believe that the "Problem That Has No Name" is some kind of depression. I say that because obviously these women are lacking something from their life. They feel unfulfilled, somethings missing. They want to be recongnized for something more than just being a house wife, mother and so on. I think too because of this expected role women are to play/be was so strong during that time that they felt they could do nothing about it, because they couldn't even really put a name to what they felt. Having a job meant a lot to most of these women. Betty Jeanne Bogg's reading just proves that she is one of many who love there job very much. She states that several times through out her reading. She loved her children and in the end was glad she did stay home with them but in the beginning she was really torn because she "really enjoyed that job." (210) Also in Vicki L. Ruiz's article I thought it was interesting how she mentions that "wages gave women a feeling of independence." (349) Even though her article is about mexican american women, I think that statement holds true for all women during that time. Having that indepence of a job and earning their own money filled the missing thing, and was or could have been the fix I think to the "Problem That Has No Name." --Michelle M.<br />
<br />
== Rickie Solinger, politics of abortion, 1950-1970 ==<br />
I actually felt a little dumb with this week's readings. There was a type of abortion that was mentioned in multiple articles, but the one I remember off the top of my head was "Women and the Politics of Hospital Abortion Committees, 1950-1970." They mentioned 'therapeutic abortions' and either I missed where they they discussed what it is or it is one those things they figure the audience knows what they were talking about. I have no idea what that kind of abortion is, I have never heard of it until this reading. --Ashley Wilkins (feeling a little dumb right now) <br />
<br />
<br />
== Vicki Ruiz, "'Star Struck': Acculturation, Adolescence, and Mexican American Women, 1920-1950" ==</div>Michellehttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_11_Questions/Comments328--Week 11 Questions/Comments2008-04-02T22:55:21Z<p>Michelle: </p>
<hr />
<div>== Debate topics or comparative questions ==<br />
Should Rosie the Riveter go home and raise a family or continue working? --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
== Betty Jeanne Boggs, "Balancing Work and Family" ==<br />
<br />
I really liked the article "Balancing Work and Family." I really loved how this family was backwards, even for the 50s-60s. The husband was still trying to finish school, the wife is working, they aren't that worried about having children. They accept it when it completely surprises them. I really like the fact that Betty Boggs worked so much and she actually liked her job, she got to choose her job, I also do like that she did try working during her first child. The fact that she at least gave it a shot was impressive to me. When she had her second child it was understandable that she wanted to stay home, also her husband by then didn't need her to be working all the time to support the family. I know there is a stereotype of families from the 50s, they are in their perfectly manicured houses and have the perfect families were dad works and mom cooks and cleans all day. But was the manicured family real, or was it created by the media? and were families like the Boggs just as "real" as the ''perfect'' manicured family?<br />
-- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
I also really liked the article by Betty Jeanne Boggs. It really struck me as out of the time period because of the wife working so the husband could finish school. Also the attitude of if 'one can't go and have fun, well, the other wont go either because its not fair.' I thought that the relationship she and her husband had was amazing, especially for the 1950s and 60s. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I agree with the above two posts, although this article definitely showed me that the idealistic picture of family during the 50's wasnt real, and although that was a bit jarring because i had never really thought that such a modern relationship existed back then, it was nice to see that it was possible. Also i feel that often we assume that relationships in the past were purely based on the children both currently present or expected, and that the actual relationship between two people was never prioritized, i like that this is the opposite, this couple truly seems to care for one another if they are blatantly defying the stereotypes of the day in order to make each other's dream possible. --Julie Robert<br />
<br />
== Wilma Mankiller, "Indian Relocation" - 1993 about life in the 1950s ==<br />
<br />
After all these years, the government still felt that there was an ‘Indian Problem” that needed to be resolved. The only way they believed to settle it was by removing the Indians from their reservations. Did the government think that just because they were not holding the Native Americans at gun point meant that it was not seen as another Trail of Tears? –Ashley Scutari<br />
<br />
== Joanna Rubin, "An Unplanned Pregnancy" 1950s ==<br />
<br />
This article really made me sad because the author mentioned feeling so alone because she didn't feel that she could tell her dad about the pregnancy. I really wonder how many young women today still feel this way, since abortions are still a very heated debate in today's society. I would imagine that many young women today also feel this sense of loneliness that Joanna Rubin felt during this time in her life. - Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
== Ethel Barol Taylor, "Women Strike for Peace" ==<br />
The article "Women Strike for Peace" by Ethel Barol Taylor really hit home for me. She talks about handing out leaflets saying "Take your children off milk," and she had very good reason to do so. The nuclear fallout from the testing of the atomic bomb at Los Alamos settled over central Iowa to central Missouri, and some unoccupied parts of Wyoming. My mothers entire family is from central Missouri, and she grew up in central Iowa. The radiation from the fallout affected the grass, which the dairy cows grazed on, and the radiation got into the milk. We are now seeing the results of people who drank radiation poisoned milk in the late 1940's and the 1950's. My grandfather developed thyroid cancer. My grandmother had a gouiter. My mother had thyroid cancer - she had to have her entire thyroid removed. Many of her cousins also developed cancer. So good for the ladies of Women Strike for Peace! Thanks for trying to raise awareness! - Sarah H.<br />
<br />
The article was also interesting in that these women ware able to protest in such a lady-like manner that they were able to avoid any harsh criticism. Their handling of protests and of HUAC investigations was so impeccable that HUAC and those like them were being ridiculed. It was an interesting way to use the constraints of the time in their favor. - Sarah H.<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Rachel Carson Answers her Critics - 1963 ==<br />
I found this article to be fairly strange since I always associated the controversy regarding DDT and other insecticides with the environmental issues and campaigns of the 1980's. Is that true or am I misremembering that? --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
== Louisa Randall Church - "Parents, Architects of Peace" 1946 ==<br />
The first reading in MP by Louisa Randall I thought was very interesting. It takes on more of a psychology perspective to parenting as she outlines what she believes are the major duties that parents have for their children. First of all, when talking about raising the children, Randall uses the term “parents” in the plural and discusses the equal responsibility of the man and the woman in raising the children, which shows a definite shift from the “women in the home” attitude that had prevailed previously. Also, it shows the growing responsibilities that parents have toward children. It extends the previous belief that women were responsible for raising moral children further to include “love and affection, equal rights, discipline, freedom, enrichment, cooperation, and education.” I also found it funny in the end when she suggested that “School officials, everywhere, and citizens, too, should give active support to the idea of training for parenthood…” (412). --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I also found this article interesting but what stood out to me was the reference to parents (plural) and the emphasis she seems to place on equality within the household. I'm wondering how many women during this period shared this ideal since this is also the period where women were shifting back to the world of the home and were taking on more responsibility for raising the children, which places more importance on her influence than the fathers, which is not equality at all. So I found this article interesting but am slightly confused as to how common her point of view was during this period. - Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
== Farnham and Lundberg, Modem Woman: The Lost Sex (1947) ==<br />
<br />
Several of the other readings dealt with the increasing notion of women working outside the home, in addition to raising a family. As Marnia Farnham points out, the progress that has been made in terms of opportunities and technologies for women “serves less to clarify and simplify her life than to complicate it with conflict piled on conflict…” (412). She goes further to say that women are no longer making progress for feminization but have instead begun to become more masculine. Is she suggesting that these women are gradually leaving their traditional gender roles and should be classified as women only in a biological sense? In order to be equal do they both first have to be defined as “masculine?” --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I find this article interesting because I actually see a lot of parallels between this period and what some people today still believe. First, I noticed that they attack the idea of child day care systems that, according to them, leave a child unsatisfied. In today's society I know many women who feel that day care, at least for children below pre-school age, is a bad idea because it doesn't teach them the discipline that children need to learn. I found this connection to today's world very striking as I was reading this article.-Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
I am not sure if a woman helped write this article, but I find it interesting that there existed a significant proportion of women activists who did not believe women should work outside of the home and the ideals of the Cult of Domesticity. It almost seems as if it is one of those cases where society's ideals have permanently lowered an individual's self-esteem. I am very tempted to conclude that it is a very similar lowering of self-esteem as that described in Brown v. Board, but I wouldn't want to get ahead of myself. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
== Pauli Murray, 1947 ==<br />
I found it interesting that the constant theme of more women than men attending college appeared in this article. I guess women have always gone to college in greater numbers than men when given the chance. How strange is that? --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
== Joyce Johnson - 1955 ==<br />
The article in MP, "Nonconformist Joyce Johnson..." was very interesting. I really liked he reasoning for sleeping around or before marriage. Since you have stayed so late it didn't matter, as long as you didn't go home. So instead of going home, you find some guy to go home with. First of all, with rules like that you are asking to get pregnant. This account however, was so shady, the means of getting an abortion is insane. She had to be taken by a sketchy guy, to this horribly mean Dr. who frowns on abortions but will perform them illegally. Did all Doctors frown upon their patients when they give abortions? I feel that if you are going to risk your life (not meaning death but imprisonment) and medical license you must be pro choice. I think the sketchiest part of all is when the procedure it over with, this "escort" invites you back to fire island, its almost like he is saying, want to get pregnant again this weekend? --- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Letter from black reader to ''The Ladder'', in 1957 ==<br />
<br />
I am impressed how an African American lesbian in the 1950’s would be so open to write to this editor especially being so open with her sexuality. “The Ladder” seems like another great stepping stone for women to be heard. Were there many other magazines like this as well? –Ashley Scutari<br />
<br />
== Betty Friedan, "The Problem That Has No Name" ==<br />
In this reading I believe that the "Problem Yhat Has No Name" is some kind of depression. I say that because obviously these women are lacking something from their life. They feel unfulfilled. They want to be recongnized for something more than just being a house wife, mother and so on. I think too because this expected steriotype of women was so strong during that time that they felt they could do nothing about it, because they couldn't even really put a name to what they felt. Having a job meant a lot to most of these women. Betty Jeanne Bogg's reading just proves that she is one of many who love there job very much. She states that several times through out her reading. She loved her children and in the end was glad she did stay home with them but in the beginning she was really torn because she "really enjoyed that job." (210) Also in Vicki L. Ruiz's article I thought it was interesting how she mentions that "wages gave women a feeling of independence." (349) Even though her article is about mexican american women, I think that statement holds true for all women during that time. Having that indepence of a job and earning their own money filled the missing thing, and was the fix I think to the "Problem That Has No Name." --Michelle M.<br />
<br />
== Rickie Solinger, politics of abortion, 1950-1970 ==<br />
I actually felt a little dumb with this week's readings. There was a type of abortion that was mentioned in multiple articles, but the one I remember off the top of my head was "Women and the Politics of Hospital Abortion Committees, 1950-1970." They mentioned 'therapeutic abortions' and either I missed where they they discussed what it is or it is one those things they figure the audience knows what they were talking about. I have no idea what that kind of abortion is, I have never heard of it until this reading. --Ashley Wilkins (feeling a little dumb right now) <br />
<br />
<br />
== Vicki Ruiz, "'Star Struck': Acculturation, Adolescence, and Mexican American Women, 1920-1950" ==</div>Michellehttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_10_Questions/Comments328--Week 10 Questions/Comments2008-03-25T23:04:53Z<p>Michelle: </p>
<hr />
<div>Debate topic: did the war economically elevate families during its duration or impoverish them? -- Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
The contrast between the concluding sentence of Ruth Marshak's "Women of Wartime Los Alamos" and the rest of the reading is interesting. She describes life as being so dreary and containing so many hardships and then ends by saying it was a great experience. Is that due to the fact that certain portions of her account were left out by the editors of the book in which her account is located? --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I had the same question that Justin remarks on above. She started off with describing the place as this horrible entity, but ends it with Los Alamos being an educational experience and that they'll never feel that connected to a town again. Are there parts left out? or does she write this article in this way so that she could throw the bit of twist at the end? -- Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
Marion Stegeman's letters in "Women in the Armed Forces" are interesting when she talks about the time she landed at Ballinger Air Field in order to get her bearings. Didn't the Squn. Commander have anything more pressing to do? It all seems a little strange to me considering the fact that we are now living in the middle of a gas crisis. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Did the WACs's performance in the 5th Army have any influence on how they were treated as military personnel after World War II? --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Matsumoto discusses “Japanese American Women during World War II” in Unequal Sisters. Part of it deals with the resettlement of some of the women from the Japanese internment camps, most of them being younger women attending college. Today, people tend to associate college educated people, and students of college age, with more liberal ideals. Was that true during this time as well? Was it easier for younger women of Japanese decent to be accepted in a college or university setting than if they were older and returning to a workforce with people of older generations? And did geography also play a role in how well or readily they were accepted? --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I thought it was interesting to read "Women of Wartime Los Alamos" by Ruth Marshak, because it showed a less common war time experience. It sounds like the woman who was describing her experience in this selection didn’t have a family with children, were there other families that moved there with children as well. If so, were these communities complete with some kind of education system as well? She describes the social aspects but not much further. What were the women’s roles in Los Alamos if they didn’t have children and while the husbands were working in the lab? --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
Reading Matsumoto's "Japanese American Women during World War II" reminded me of a story I had to read in English class during high school. The other story said that people would destroy the houses of Japanese-Americans and take what they wanted, destroying the rest. Did this happen often? How did women deal with a destroyed home when they returned? Did families return to the homes and properties they had before the internments? Were they able to? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I noticed in the movie in class and in the pictures, that the women were wearing pants. I think it is mentioned in a caption on page 179 in MAW, and several other times throughout the reading. This is quite a change from the ridiculous bicyling outfits we studied earlier. Was this a case of desperate times call for desperate measures or was it more acceptable during this time period for women to dress comfortably and efficiently at work/home while doing work? ---Landon Davis<br />
<br />
One thing i noticed throughout the MAW reading was a lack of overt patriotism. The oral history "Rosie the Riveter" by Hill focuses solely on the monetary aspects she gains by working. In "Women in the Armed Forces" the letters written by Stagemen only talk of how exciting it is, and allows her to stroke her ego as she talks about getting out of the plane and surprising all the men. I am not saying what they were doing was not patriotic because it was. But it does not sound like patriotism was the first reason alot of these women chose to work. Again in MP Bethune urges FDR to let African American women work. Bethune uses the term "united patriotism" but it seems more like a means to an end (equality) rather than the end in itself. Yerger expresses my skepticism on page 373 saying something like "women use the patriotic cause of their work as a front for the financial cause." ---- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
The article in US on the Japanese women I thought was interesting because right after the bombing of Pearl Harbor all of the Japanese were put in camps, and the Americans saw them as a threat, therefore putting them into these camps as a way to keep a watchfull eye on them as if they were to do something or had some part in why the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. This sounds all to familiar. When 9-11 happened Americans suddenly saw all middle easterners as a threat that were in the US. Although we did not throw them into camps, I remember watching the news and how they interviewed some immagrant middle easterners and how now they were treated differently.I've often wondered if the role was reveresed and an American white or black did something horrific in another country if other races would change the way the think of us, but by saying that what do other races, ethnicities think of us? I also thought how amazing it was that the Japanese found something good out of being kept in these camps, and utilized new skills they formed once they were out and used it to their advantage.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
The second article (Mrs. Norma Yerger) she makes the statement that "Many women thoroughly enjoy working & getting away from the home."(373) I'm sure many did enjoy their jobs since some working conditions had improved but probably there were just as many who didn't like their jobs, for whatever reason. Also relating that statement to the movie we watched in class; there was one part were the women were ok with giving their job back to the man who once had the position before going off to war. How true is that? Were many simply ok with going back to being house wife and home maker, or did they really enjoy their job enough like the article says, therefore not wanting to give up their job.--Michelle M.</div>Michellehttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_10_Questions/Comments328--Week 10 Questions/Comments2008-03-25T22:51:08Z<p>Michelle: </p>
<hr />
<div>Debate topic: did the war economically elevate families during its duration or impoverish them? -- Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
The contrast between the concluding sentence of Ruth Marshak's "Women of Wartime Los Alamos" and the rest of the reading is interesting. She describes life as being so dreary and containing so many hardships and then ends by saying it was a great experience. Is that due to the fact that certain portions of her account were left out by the editors of the book in which her account is located? --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I had the same question that Justin remarks on above. She started off with describing the place as this horrible entity, but ends it with Los Alamos being an educational experience and that they'll never feel that connected to a town again. Are there parts left out? or does she write this article in this way so that she could throw the bit of twist at the end? -- Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
Marion Stegeman's letters in "Women in the Armed Forces" are interesting when she talks about the time she landed at Ballinger Air Field in order to get her bearings. Didn't the Squn. Commander have anything more pressing to do? It all seems a little strange to me considering the fact that we are now living in the middle of a gas crisis. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Did the WACs's performance in the 5th Army have any influence on how they were treated as military personnel after World War II? --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Matsumoto discusses “Japanese American Women during World War II” in Unequal Sisters. Part of it deals with the resettlement of some of the women from the Japanese internment camps, most of them being younger women attending college. Today, people tend to associate college educated people, and students of college age, with more liberal ideals. Was that true during this time as well? Was it easier for younger women of Japanese decent to be accepted in a college or university setting than if they were older and returning to a workforce with people of older generations? And did geography also play a role in how well or readily they were accepted? --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I thought it was interesting to read "Women of Wartime Los Alamos" by Ruth Marshak, because it showed a less common war time experience. It sounds like the woman who was describing her experience in this selection didn’t have a family with children, were there other families that moved there with children as well. If so, were these communities complete with some kind of education system as well? She describes the social aspects but not much further. What were the women’s roles in Los Alamos if they didn’t have children and while the husbands were working in the lab? --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
Reading Matsumoto's "Japanese American Women during World War II" reminded me of a story I had to read in English class during high school. The other story said that people would destroy the houses of Japanese-Americans and take what they wanted, destroying the rest. Did this happen often? How did women deal with a destroyed home when they returned? Did families return to the homes and properties they had before the internments? Were they able to? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I noticed in the movie in class and in the pictures, that the women were wearing pants. I think it is mentioned in a caption on page 179 in MAW, and several other times throughout the reading. This is quite a change from the ridiculous bicyling outfits we studied earlier. Was this a case of desperate times call for desperate measures or was it more acceptable during this time period for women to dress comfortably and efficiently at work/home while doing work? ---Landon Davis<br />
<br />
One thing i noticed throughout the MAW reading was a lack of overt patriotism. The oral history "Rosie the Riveter" by Hill focuses solely on the monetary aspects she gains by working. In "Women in the Armed Forces" the letters written by Stagemen only talk of how exciting it is, and allows her to stroke her ego as she talks about getting out of the plane and surprising all the men. I am not saying what they were doing was not patriotic because it was. But it does not sound like patriotism was the first reason alot of these women chose to work. Again in MP Bethune urges FDR to let African American women work. Bethune uses the term "united patriotism" but it seems more like a means to an end (equality) rather than the end in itself. Yerger expresses my skepticism on page 373 saying something like "women use the patriotic cause of their work as a front for the financial cause." ---- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
The article in US on the Japanese women I thought was interesting because right after the bombing of Pearl Harbor all of the Japanese were put in camps, and the Americans saw them as a threat, therefore putting them into these camps as a way to keep a watchfull eye on them as if they were to do something or had some part in why the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. This sounds all to familiar. When 9-11 happened Americans suddenly saw all middle easterners as a threat that were in the US. Although we did not throw them into camps, I remember watching the news and how they interviewed some immagrant middle easterners and how now they were treated differently.I've often wondered if the role was reveresed and an American white or black did something horrific in another country if other races would change the way the think of us, but by saying that what do other races, ethnicities think of us? I also thought how amazing it was that the Japanese found something good out of being kept in these camps, and utilized new skills they formed once they were out and used it to their advantage.--Michelle M.</div>Michellehttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_10_Questions/Comments328--Week 10 Questions/Comments2008-03-25T22:49:20Z<p>Michelle: </p>
<hr />
<div>Debate topic: did the war economically elevate families during its duration or impoverish them? -- Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
The contrast between the concluding sentence of Ruth Marshak's "Women of Wartime Los Alamos" and the rest of the reading is interesting. She describes life as being so dreary and containing so many hardships and then ends by saying it was a great experience. Is that due to the fact that certain portions of her account were left out by the editors of the book in which her account is located? --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I had the same question that Justin remarks on above. She started off with describing the place as this horrible entity, but ends it with Los Alamos being an educational experience and that they'll never feel that connected to a town again. Are there parts left out? or does she write this article in this way so that she could throw the bit of twist at the end? -- Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
Marion Stegeman's letters in "Women in the Armed Forces" are interesting when she talks about the time she landed at Ballinger Air Field in order to get her bearings. Didn't the Squn. Commander have anything more pressing to do? It all seems a little strange to me considering the fact that we are now living in the middle of a gas crisis. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Did the WACs's performance in the 5th Army have any influence on how they were treated as military personnel after World War II? --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Matsumoto discusses “Japanese American Women during World War II” in Unequal Sisters. Part of it deals with the resettlement of some of the women from the Japanese internment camps, most of them being younger women attending college. Today, people tend to associate college educated people, and students of college age, with more liberal ideals. Was that true during this time as well? Was it easier for younger women of Japanese decent to be accepted in a college or university setting than if they were older and returning to a workforce with people of older generations? And did geography also play a role in how well or readily they were accepted? --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I thought it was interesting to read "Women of Wartime Los Alamos" by Ruth Marshak, because it showed a less common war time experience. It sounds like the woman who was describing her experience in this selection didn’t have a family with children, were there other families that moved there with children as well. If so, were these communities complete with some kind of education system as well? She describes the social aspects but not much further. What were the women’s roles in Los Alamos if they didn’t have children and while the husbands were working in the lab? --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
Reading Matsumoto's "Japanese American Women during World War II" reminded me of a story I had to read in English class during high school. The other story said that people would destroy the houses of Japanese-Americans and take what they wanted, destroying the rest. Did this happen often? How did women deal with a destroyed home when they returned? Did families return to the homes and properties they had before the internments? Were they able to? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I noticed in the movie in class and in the pictures, that the women were wearing pants. I think it is mentioned in a caption on page 179 in MAW, and several other times throughout the reading. This is quite a change from the ridiculous bicyling outfits we studied earlier. Was this a case of desperate times call for desperate measures or was it more acceptable during this time period for women to dress comfortably and efficiently at work/home while doing work? ---Landon Davis<br />
<br />
One thing i noticed throughout the MAW reading was a lack of overt patriotism. The oral history "Rosie the Riveter" by Hill focuses solely on the monetary aspects she gains by working. In "Women in the Armed Forces" the letters written by Stagemen only talk of how exciting it is, and allows her to stroke her ego as she talks about getting out of the plane and surprising all the men. I am not saying what they were doing was not patriotic because it was. But it does not sound like patriotism was the first reason alot of these women chose to work. Again in MP Bethune urges FDR to let African American women work. Bethune uses the term "united patriotism" but it seems more like a means to an end (equality) rather than the end in itself. Yerger expresses my skepticism on page 373 saying something like "women use the patriotic cause of their work as a front for the financial cause." ---- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
The article in US on the Japanese women I thought was interesting because right after the bombing of Pearl Harbor all of the Japanese were put in camps, and the Americans saw them as a threat, therefore putting them into these camps as a way to keep a watchfull eye on them as if they were to do something or had some part in why the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. This sounds all to familiar. When 9-11 happened Americans suddenly saw all middle easterners as a threat that were in the US. Although we did not throw them into camps, I remember watching the news and how they interviewed some immagrant middle easterners and how now they were treated differently.I've often wondered if the role was reveresed and an American white or black did something horrific in another country if other races would change the way the think of us, but by saying that what do other races, ethnicities think of us?</div>Michellehttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_9_Questions/Comments328--Week 9 Questions/Comments2008-03-19T13:58:08Z<p>Michelle: </p>
<hr />
<div>It annoys me how it took an economic depression to make people realize how important birth control was. It would happen that way, people say how immoral it is until babies become an economic burden that they can't afford. I am glad, however, that they DID realize it was important though because the more children, the harsher the despression would've been. It is sad to see that the poorer people always were the ones having the most children, that is unfortunantly the way it usually is.- Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
In "I Want You Women Up North to Know" by Tillie Olson I found this line hilarious " ...she says that he prays and dreams of a another world...a heaven (which he does not know was brought to earth in 1917 in Russia, by workers like him)"...hind-sight is 20/20 right?- Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
I agree with Emely Amaya's comment on the studies regarding the high number of births among poor people during the Great Depression. I was sort of wondering and hoping that studies such as those were the reason behind the repeal of prohibitions against the dissemination of information regarding birth control by AMA doctors. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I was amazed to learn how organized and militant housewives were during the Great Depression. Prior to reading this week's reading, I didn't know people were able to actually find constructive ways of regaining a semblance of their previous way of life during the Great Depression. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
All of this week's readings about and created by Eleanor Roosevelt really confirmed history's seemingly high opinion of her. The fact that the Roosevelts' were able to constructively respond to all of their mail during the Great Depression is very admirable. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Reading Meridel Lesueur's article really struck me. Just how starved the women were, and the endless sitting at the job bureau day after day. The description of some of their faces really made me feel a little sad. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
Ann Marie Low's "The Dust Bowl" was intriguing to read. Just how much dust piled up and how much they had to wash to keep their dishes, clothes, and house clean was unreal. I had always been told that there was 'a lot of dust,' but this article really put it in perspective. How did the people manage to live in it? I know that it said many babies and elderly died in it, but how did people live in it? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
<br />
Margaret Jarman Hagood's "The Life Cycle of a White Southern Farm Woman" was so depressing! I was reading it and toward the end I had to stop and just stare at the book. I never realized that a baby that close to birth who was so active could just... die like that. 11 days before birth! I read it allowed to my husband and our friend who was visiting and they both stared at me and asked "Why are you reading something so depressing!?!?" Does those kinds of death still happen in America today? I mean, that close to birth? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
Dollinger's essay on "Women and Labor Militancy" was interesting. I I had no idea some women took it so far and seriously in these union groups. Sure we've learned how they take a militant approuch, but the lady in this reading was beyond that. What I thought was so interesting about her was how she used her gender against the cops in order to get where and what she wanted. She knew as a women that the cops would not shoot her in the back like they would a man, and therefore marching herself right in there on these strikes helping to defend these men, as well as using a type of reverse psychology on the cops to try and get them to see their fight. Pretty smart. On top of that she is like, oh by the way I had TB while I was doing all of this. She had some guts. She had a lot of women back her up on these strikes and even though the cops did not shoot them like they may have done to men I wonder if any got arrested at least?--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
I thougth it was interesting that women actually took the time to write Eleanor Roosevelt about things that they desperately needed, like clothing and jobs for their husbands. Just thinking in today's world and if a depression happened now, I would think it pointless to write the first lady about what I desperately needed, just because I would think she for one probably would never even read the letter and two she probably wouldn't care much less help me. Yet so many women in the 1930's wrote her their depressing situations, I assume because they were just so desperate and no one else could help them so why couldn't the first lady. They probably thougtht too that Eleanor could influence her husband since he was the President to make him do something. Also article 5 and 6 in MP show that Eleanor did actually take recongnition of the problems during the depression and talked about the problems and spoke actively on many of the problems she saw.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
In "A Mexican-American Childhood during the Depression" Carlotta Martin discusses what is like growing up in the barrio and how difficult life was during the Great Depression. She mentions that it was more common for children to be raised by their grandparents. Would this be in the sense that was it common for grandparents to live in the same households as their children and other extended family and for them to serve as we would see babysitters today? Or did the grandparents take their grandchildren, live separately, and give both parents a chance to work. Was this common within other ethnic groups or social classes as well? Or did it simply serve as an opportunity for the children to get an education as opposed to working to help their struggling families during the depression? –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
Dollinger wrote about "Women and Labor Militancy" in the 1930's. Women formed the Emergency Brigade as their form of activism, which at the time was very appreciated by the men it was helping. However, as women's roles in these positions became less necessary and demands were being met, their roles became less necessary. People quickly reverted back to their previous expectations and as it states on page 170 men began saying, "Well, you women did a wonderful job, but now your duty is back there getting those kids in school, getting the wash done, and regular meals again…" Though the women were helpful for that time, does it really show progress for women and their increasingly public roles if it can disappear as quickly as it can emerge? I think it shows how easily the situation of women can change within certain societal conditions, how fragile progress can be, and how easily it is to revert back to the default. The challenge then becomes not how to be more active and make progress at a certain time or under certain circumstances, but how to use all of these collectively to change the default. –Jessica Kilday</div>Michellehttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_9_Questions/Comments328--Week 9 Questions/Comments2008-03-17T19:19:56Z<p>Michelle: </p>
<hr />
<div>It annoys me how it took an economic depression to make people realize how important birth control was. It would happen that way, people say how immoral it is until babies become an economic burden that they can't afford. I am glad, however, that they DID realize it was important though because the more children, the harsher the despression would've been. It is sad to see that the poorer people always were the ones having the most children, that is unfortunantly the way it usually is.- Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
In "I Want You Women Up North to Know" by Tillie Olson I found this line hilarious " ...she says that he prays and dreams of a another world...a heaven (which he does not know was brought to earth in 1917 in Russia, by workers like him)"...hind-sight is 20/20 right?- Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
I agree with Emely Amaya's comment on the studies regarding the high number of births among poor people during the Great Depression. I was sort of wondering and hoping that studies such as those were the reason behind the repeal of prohibitions against the dissemination of information regarding birth control by AMA doctors. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I was amazed to learn how organized and militant housewives were during the Great Depression. Prior to reading this week's reading, I didn't know people were able to actually find constructive ways of regaining a semblance of their previous way of life during the Great Depression. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
All of this week's readings about and created by Eleanor Roosevelt really confirmed history's seemingly high opinion of her. The fact that the Roosevelts' were able to constructively respond to all of their mail during the Great Depression is very admirable. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Reading Meridel Lesueur's article really struck me. Just how starved the women were, and the endless sitting at the job bureau day after day. The description of some of their faces really made me feel a little sad. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
Ann Marie Low's "The Dust Bowl" was intriguing to read. Just how much dust piled up and how much they had to wash to keep their dishes, clothes, and house clean was unreal. I had always been told that there was 'a lot of dust,' but this article really put it in perspective. How did the people manage to live in it? I know that it said many babies and elderly died in it, but how did people live in it? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
<br />
Margaret Jarman Hagood's "The Life Cycle of a White Southern Farm Woman" was so depressing! I was reading it and toward the end I had to stop and just stare at the book. I never realized that a baby that close to birth who was so active could just... die like that. 11 days before birth! I read it allowed to my husband and our friend who was visiting and they both stared at me and asked "Why are you reading something so depressing!?!?" Does those kinds of death still happen in America today? I mean, that close to birth? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
Dollinger's essay on "Women and Labor Militancy" was interesting. I I had no idea some women took it so far and seriously in these union groups. Sure we've learned how they take a militant approuch, but the lady in this reading was beyond that. What I thought was so interesting about her was how she used her gender against the cops in order to get where and what she wanted. She knew as a women that the cops would not shoot her in the back like they would a man, and therefore marching herself right in there on these strikes helping to defend these men, as well as using a type of reverse psychology on the cops to try and get them to see their fight. Pretty smart. On top of that she is like, oh by the way I had TB while I was doing all of this. She had some guts. She had a lot of women back her up on these strikes and even though the cops did not shoot them like they may have done to men I wonder if any got arrested at least?--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
I thougth it was interesting that women actually took the time to write Eleanor Roosevelt about things that they desperately needed, like clothing and jobs for their husbands. Just thinking in today's world and if a depression happened now, I would think it pointless to write the first lady about what I desperately needed, just because I would think she for one probably would never even read the letter and two she probably wouldn't care much less help me. Yet so many women in the 1930's wrote her their depressing situations, I assume because they were just so desperate and no one else could help them so why couldn't the first lady. They probably thougtht too that Eleanor could influence her husband since he was the President to make him do something. Also article 5 and 6 in MP show that Eleanor did actually take recongnition of the problems during the depression and talked about the problems but yet she never really offers a solution.--Michelle M.</div>Michellehttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_9_Questions/Comments328--Week 9 Questions/Comments2008-03-17T19:07:27Z<p>Michelle: </p>
<hr />
<div>It annoys me how it took an economic depression to make people realize how important birth control was. It would happen that way, people say how immoral it is until babies become an economic burden that they can't afford. I am glad, however, that they DID realize it was important though because the more children, the harsher the despression would've been. It is sad to see that the poorer people always were the ones having the most children, that is unfortunantly the way it usually is.- Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
In "I Want You Women Up North to Know" by Tillie Olson I found this line hilarious " ...she says that he prays and dreams of a another world...a heaven (which he does not know was brought to earth in 1917 in Russia, by workers like him)"...hind-sight is 20/20 right?- Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
I agree with Emely Amaya's comment on the studies regarding the high number of births among poor people during the Great Depression. I was sort of wondering and hoping that studies such as those were the reason behind the repeal of prohibitions against the dissemination of information regarding birth control by AMA doctors. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I was amazed to learn how organized and militant housewives were during the Great Depression. Prior to reading this week's reading, I didn't know people were able to actually find constructive ways of regaining a semblance of their previous way of life during the Great Depression. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
All of this week's readings about and created by Eleanor Roosevelt really confirmed history's seemingly high opinion of her. The fact that the Roosevelts' were able to constructively respond to all of their mail during the Great Depression is very admirable. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Reading Meridel Lesueur's article really struck me. Just how starved the women were, and the endless sitting at the job bureau day after day. The description of some of their faces really made me feel a little sad. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
Ann Marie Low's "The Dust Bowl" was intriguing to read. Just how much dust piled up and how much they had to wash to keep their dishes, clothes, and house clean was unreal. I had always been told that there was 'a lot of dust,' but this article really put it in perspective. How did the people manage to live in it? I know that it said many babies and elderly died in it, but how did people live in it? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
<br />
Margaret Jarman Hagood's "The Life Cycle of a White Southern Farm Woman" was so depressing! I was reading it and toward the end I had to stop and just stare at the book. I never realized that a baby that close to birth who was so active could just... die like that. 11 days before birth! I read it allowed to my husband and our friend who was visiting and they both stared at me and asked "Why are you reading something so depressing!?!?" Does those kinds of death still happen in America today? I mean, that close to birth? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
Dollinger's essay on "Women and Labor Militancy" was interesting. I I had no idea some women took it so far and seriously in these union groups. Sure we've learned how they take a militant approuch, but the lady in this reading was beyond that. What I thought was so interesting about her was how she used her gender against the cops in order to get where and what she wanted. She knew as a women that the cops would not shoot her in the back like they would a man, and therefore marching herself right in there on these strikes helping to defend these men, as well as using a type of reverse psychology on the cops to try and get them to see their fight. Pretty smart. On top of that she is like, oh by the way I had TB while I was doing all of this. She had some guts. She had a lot of women back her up on these strikes and even though the cops did not shoot them like they may have done to men I wonder if any got arrested at least?--Michelle M.</div>Michellehttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_9_Questions/Comments328--Week 9 Questions/Comments2008-03-17T19:03:01Z<p>Michelle: </p>
<hr />
<div>It annoys me how it took an economic depression to make people realize how important birth control was. It would happen that way, people say how immoral it is until babies become an economic burden that they can't afford. I am glad, however, that they DID realize it was important though because the more children, the harsher the despression would've been. It is sad to see that the poorer people always were the ones having the most children, that is unfortunantly the way it usually is.- Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
In "I Want You Women Up North to Know" by Tillie Olson I found this line hilarious " ...she says that he prays and dreams of a another world...a heaven (which he does not know was brought to earth in 1917 in Russia, by workers like him)"...hind-sight is 20/20 right?- Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
I agree with Emely Amaya's comment on the studies regarding the high number of births among poor people during the Great Depression. I was sort of wondering and hoping that studies such as those were the reason behind the repeal of prohibitions against the dissemination of information regarding birth control by AMA doctors. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I was amazed to learn how organized and militant housewives were during the Great Depression. Prior to reading this week's reading, I didn't know people were able to actually find constructive ways of regaining a semblance of their previous way of life during the Great Depression. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
All of this week's readings about and created by Eleanor Roosevelt really confirmed history's seemingly high opinion of her. The fact that the Roosevelts' were able to constructively respond to all of their mail during the Great Depression is very admirable. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Reading Meridel Lesueur's article really struck me. Just how starved the women were, and the endless sitting at the job bureau day after day. The description of some of their faces really made me feel a little sad. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
Ann Marie Low's "The Dust Bowl" was intriguing to read. Just how much dust piled up and how much they had to wash to keep their dishes, clothes, and house clean was unreal. I had always been told that there was 'a lot of dust,' but this article really put it in perspective. How did the people manage to live in it? I know that it said many babies and elderly died in it, but how did people live in it? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
<br />
Margaret Jarman Hagood's "The Life Cycle of a White Southern Farm Woman" was so depressing! I was reading it and toward the end I had to stop and just stare at the book. I never realized that a baby that close to birth who was so active could just... die like that. 11 days before birth! I read it allowed to my husband and our friend who was visiting and they both stared at me and asked "Why are you reading something so depressing!?!?" Does those kinds of death still happen in America today? I mean, that close to birth? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
Dollinger's essay on "Women and Labor Militancy" was interesting. I I had no idea some women took it so far and seriously in these union groups. Sure we've learned how they take a militant approuch, but the lady in this reading was beyond that. What I thought was so interesting about her was how she used her gender against the cops in order to get where and what she wanted. She knew as a women that the cops would not shoot her in the back like they would a man, and therefore marching herself right in there on these strikes helping to defend these men, as well as using a type of reverse psychology on the cops to try and get them to see their fight. Pretty smart. On top of that she is like, oh by the way I had TB while I was doing all of this. She had some guts.</div>Michellehttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_8_Questions/Comments328--Week 8 Questions/Comments2008-03-12T16:53:18Z<p>Michelle: </p>
<hr />
<div>THE ONLINE READING IS LOCATED HERE: [http://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/docs/MP-Reading.pdf Week 8 Reading]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
In this week's reading of "'But We Would Never Talk about it': The Structures of Lesbian Discretion in South Dakota, 1928-1933" by Elizabeth Lapovsky Kennedy, the idea that struck me the deepest was the thought that the now extinct sensibility that existed during the first half of the twentieth century actually helped a minority people. Having unofficial social mores and a respect for others' privacy allowed for lesbians who were white to live productive lives as long as they lived according to same social standards that ruled the lives of heterosexual women. This custom appears to have created a type of equality that may or may not exist today. Given the fact that the majority of the things that many homosexual couples are fighting for today did not yet exist for heterosexual couples, it would seem as if during this point in time, lesbianism was treated as an extreme eccentricity that should be controlled out of respect for one's neighbors. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I did not find it as surprising that is was so possible for Julia Boyer Reinstein's family to accept her lesbianism. While I am sure that her mother and father would have preferred to have a son-in-law, that the father enjoyed not having to entertain potential male suitors and having someone who would cover up his extramaterial affairs should not be overlooked. In a certain sense, I think what made her lesbianism easier to accept than if Julia Boyer Reinstein had been a homosexual male was that the society in which she lived was patriarchal and thus the desires of the father won out over the desires of the mother, and her father really did not care whether she enjoyed a heterosexual marriage or not. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
So then does the tying of sexuality with politics and identity mischaracterize people and their politics, concerns, and histories? --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
After reading "But we would never talk about it" I didn't feel surprised about any of it. Being a lesbian back then was not defined as it was today. It was common for women to confide in each other and sleep in the same bed and have an intimate relationship. However, a lot of people did not know what was really going on behind closed doors, which I feel is a reason why no one every talked about it. The only thing that did surprise me was that her parents were ok with it all. There is a passage that talks about how her mother would make a comment about how she wasn't with this one boy, but in the end her being a lesbian didn't bother her, she was actually very polite to Dorothy. In Julia's father's case, it didn't surprise me so much after there were comments made that he could have all of her attention. He didn't need to entertain possible son - in- laws, however I also feel like he used Julia because she was gay. By giving Julia his consent and accepting her it keep their relationship close, however he might of done this because it covered up all of his affairs. My question was did Julia ever see her father and her relationship this way, or was she just happy that her father accepted her? -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
The second part that I thought was the most interesting was her encounter with Amelia Earhart. It shows how cautious girls were towards other girls. I feel that these women were so unsure about themselves that they really had to question others more. Especially since this was one of her earlier encounters, it shows that in the beginning Julia was very timid about her sexuality. Since she was shy about her self, she wasn't going to go out and put the moves on every girl, especially not Earhart. But as she gets older her "sense" gets stronger, through all the trips she took with her father. She could tell which woman was the "odd" one of the bunch, I also feel that over the years other women started to feel a little more comfortable with being gay and showing it a little more. Which made it easier for women like Julia to point out the "odd" girl. My only question was were there women like today who went through these phases of lesbians and then just turned straight and marry? Or was it because society was starting to see lesbians for what they were and women felt pressured to become straight live the way society wants them to? -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
Kennedy uses the case of Julia to discuss the discretion of lesbianism in the early 1900’s. There were, however, many other aspects to Julia’s identity than just her sexuality. This is pointed on page 415, when Kennedy states “she came into her womanhood as a lesbian, as a college student, as the daughter of a father who was prominent citizen and business owner, and as the daughter of a mother who was strongly independent yet part of an established small-town protestant family.” Given this, the discretion of Julia’s sexuality may have been because it would have been a trait that overshadowed the others; it may have become her only identifying factor in the public eye as opposed to just one of many. Could there have been any other traits during this time that people felt the need to cover-up, other than sexuality? And how true is this still today? --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
Lesbianism wasn’t something that could be discriminated against publicly; this is in contrast to other aspects of one’s identity such as gender or race, which could once have been discriminated against legally. Yet Julia still feared that if she was obvious about how she felt then she would not be able to receive all the benefits and privileges of her class. Which would be harder to deal with, discrimination by law or discrimination by society? --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
<br />
All I have to say is, wow. I know there are still a lot of problems with accepting lesbianism today, but to read that a father accepted it and used it to his advantage was incredibly. I feel that even lesbianism today is kept quite because most people seem not to always accept it, however not as much as the 1920s and 1930s. There are gay rights movements and things like ‘gay day’ at theme or amusement parks, which to me shouts “we accept all people of sexual preferences.” That could also just be a money marketing scam… However, I really did enjoy this piece by Elizabeth Kennedy because going through the public school system I had friends that I knew were lesbians, but we never talked about it, not even when they would have a break up with their girlfriend. If there was a break-up we would take the friend for ice-cream or something, but nothing was ever said about the situation. –Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
<br />
I pity the most definitely unsatisfied woman married to that Dr. Carlton C. Frederick! His unqualified theories on woman were as sexist as Freud's of that same time period (the grotesque double standard was very popular then)! This article compared to the survey's of Dr. Mosher were so starkly different, I wonder what kind of effect the controversy had over the general population-and more importantly over the general female population? His assertive views on Nymphomaniacs has actually made me question the sexism based around that "disorder"-I would be interested in further study of the history of Nymphomania as recognized by physicians and society. Also in consideration of mental disorders: this article is part of the great slew of material that prolonged the accepted myth that homosexuality is a mental illness well into the early 70s in American. I don't know how doctors could do it back then- to use unsubstantiated views as evidence for such sexist publications! ~~Jackie Reed<br />
<br />
I agree with Jackie that Dr. Frederick was a wack job! Where on earth did he get his information from. It really makes you wonder how many doctors in those days actually did any kind of research or if they were simply stuck on a certain view of women and because they were a doctor they felt that gave them authority and validation to what their theory on the female and sex was.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
I agree with Jackie about the Dr. Frederick essay. My question is: Was Frederick saying that nymphomania in women, was when they acheived the same level of sexuality and deisre that men had? Or was it on some completely different level? Also I found it disturbing, and almost funny how he so easily bridged a gap between masturbation and pedophelia.----Landon Davis<br />
<br />
There were several parts of the reading off the wiki that fit in perfectly with the companionate marriage we discussed in class today. Most noticeably the second passage from extracts from the Mosher Survey, respondent 10 was qouted as "I think for man and woman married from love, it may be used temperately, as one of the highest manifestations of love." This passage exemplifies the break from the repressive victorian era ideals of marriage, that women should not enjoy sex, and that it should be used primarily for reproduction. Another example was the second letter to Sanger, the man was asking for details of contraception, not for (entirely) selfish reasons, he seemed genuinely concerned about his wife's welfare and happiness. ----Landon Davis<br />
<br />
After reading the online reading something that stuck out to me the most was the letters to Margaret Sanger. I found it surprising that men and women were actually staying away from their spouses because they don't want anymore children. Because birth control was not offered to women, and especially women who lived in rural areas, it was ruining marriages. In letter number 4 the wife was actually thinking about their financial stability knowing they can not have another child and all the husband wants is sex not really caring about the situation. This whole concept of the companion family caused higher expectations, however in these letters the women and or men mention that they love their spouse dearly but because they don't want to reproduce tears them apart. If there was such a big problem with divorce rates increasing and infidelity then why wasn't this taken into account? Is it because people are just to afraid to talk about sex? -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
When reading the letters to Margaret Sanger about birth control I kind of asked the same question Amanda did on why wasn't it taken into account that divorce rates incresasing was really possibly due to infidelity which was essentially caused by fear of having sex in result of having children. Therefore birth control would really possibly save marriage, however I don't think it is because people were afraid to talk about sex even though it wasn't talked about but, instead maybe what they really wanted was to be able to have sex freely without the worry of getting pregnant, and birth control would allow a married couple to have control over how many children they wanted. Maybe they thought, this thought was a scary or selfish thing to even think or want becasue for so long people just had children, but because the world was changing there was just no need for families with 7 to 10 children anymore.--Michelle M. <br />
<br />
I agree with Landon and also saw many parallels between the discussion of the companionate family in class and also in society today. Blanchard and Manasses' discussion of courtship points out that men and women were able to "become intimately acquainted" before marriage and discuss openly and equally about their opinions of married life before they were married. The notion that men and women must be compatible personalities, working together as partners in all areas demonstrates the new ideal. Yet there are still hidden facets of Victorian ideals engrained into the companionate marriage. The "lurking fear that she may seem too passionate, and her husband may suspect what still seems to her dreadful secret, she cannot give herself up to free enjoyment of his love," still alludes to the idea that women are not supposed to enjoy sex and when they do there is something morally wrong with them. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
I also saw a parallel between Blanchard and Manasses' discussion and society's ideals today. Sex education, and the lack thereof, is still a problem. Many schools still strictly follow an abstinence only program and students are left uneducated about where to go for family planning options. In many cases women still grow up experiencing "conditioned responses toward sex" in which parents have punished any form of sexual expression. The experiences of women described in this reading (anxiety, embarressment, guilt) caused by society's ideals still strongly exist. Their discussion was a liberal view and today this view would be considered conservative but how much have the ideals of women's sexuality changed from the early 20th century? -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
<br />
I was surprised after reading the "Extracts from the Mosher Survey, 1892-1913" because I did not realize that it seemed that most women did not have knowledge of sexual physiology before marriage. I'm guessing most of the men knew though. I think the 'birds and the bees' was mostly explained by my teachers when I was in 4th or 5th grade, or around age 9 or 10. Times have changed considerably, but I wonder how many U.S. females are raised in such a way still that they do not know much about it. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
<br />
So, as everyone knows, I hate the idea of using Lysol as a means of contraception. As a result, reading the one interview with Respondent 44 made me cringe. Bichloride? Really? I'm assuming they used the mercury compound since I saw another interviewee discuss it and I almost fell over. That stuff is dangerous so it astounded me that it had "no effect" as she stated. It never ceases to amaze me the lengths to which people would go to prevent pregnancies in the early 20th century. It was interesting to read all of the interviews though and compare and contrast them. The differences were slight because the years were relatively close together, but the shifts in belief about the purposes of intercourse emphasized that shift from a "sex is for male pleasure and reproduction only" world to a "women can like it too" sort of atmosphere. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
After reading the respondents from Mosher I was surprised to find out how many women really knew nothing about sex once they were married. I knew that it was somthing not talked about, but to be a women just married and not knowing what sex even was had to be scary and maybe even confusing to them. Did the husbands know though? What I also thought was interesting about their resoponses was that those who did try some kind of means to prevent pregnancy, when asked if their health was effected they all said no. The things they used didn't sound like very safe things, but what I've come to realize by these readings this week is that women seemed to be desperate for anything to have some kind of control over conception, but were the men just as desperate in hopes that something would emerge to prevent pregnancy once there were so many children already in the family too?--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
I flat out laughed when I read the beginning of "The Manifestations of Nymphomania." What I thought was so interesting about this reading, besides the ideology that if women liked sex as much as men the world would be one giant brothel, was that this was documented at the turn of the century. I think it's a good example of the mentality some conservatives were trying to hold on to as the "new woman" burst onto the scene. I just didn't really understand his distinction between "insane" and the "not insane." Were the insane and mildly insane nymphomaniacs the ones that went into bars and started flirting with men, etc? -- Kelly Wuyscik</div>Michellehttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_8_Questions/Comments328--Week 8 Questions/Comments2008-03-12T16:23:35Z<p>Michelle: </p>
<hr />
<div>THE ONLINE READING IS LOCATED HERE: [http://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/docs/MP-Reading.pdf Week 8 Reading]<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
In this week's reading of "'But We Would Never Talk about it': The Structures of Lesbian Discretion in South Dakota, 1928-1933" by Elizabeth Lapovsky Kennedy, the idea that struck me the deepest was the thought that the now extinct sensibility that existed during the first half of the twentieth century actually helped a minority people. Having unofficial social mores and a respect for others' privacy allowed for lesbians who were white to live productive lives as long as they lived according to same social standards that ruled the lives of heterosexual women. This custom appears to have created a type of equality that may or may not exist today. Given the fact that the majority of the things that many homosexual couples are fighting for today did not yet exist for heterosexual couples, it would seem as if during this point in time, lesbianism was treated as an extreme eccentricity that should be controlled out of respect for one's neighbors. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I did not find it as surprising that is was so possible for Julia Boyer Reinstein's family to accept her lesbianism. While I am sure that her mother and father would have preferred to have a son-in-law, that the father enjoyed not having to entertain potential male suitors and having someone who would cover up his extramaterial affairs should not be overlooked. In a certain sense, I think what made her lesbianism easier to accept than if Julia Boyer Reinstein had been a homosexual male was that the society in which she lived was patriarchal and thus the desires of the father won out over the desires of the mother, and her father really did not care whether she enjoyed a heterosexual marriage or not. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
So then does the tying of sexuality with politics and identity mischaracterize people and their politics, concerns, and histories? --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
After reading "But we would never talk about it" I didn't feel surprised about any of it. Being a lesbian back then was not defined as it was today. It was common for women to confide in each other and sleep in the same bed and have an intimate relationship. However, a lot of people did not know what was really going on behind closed doors, which I feel is a reason why no one every talked about it. The only thing that did surprise me was that her parents were ok with it all. There is a passage that talks about how her mother would make a comment about how she wasn't with this one boy, but in the end her being a lesbian didn't bother her, she was actually very polite to Dorothy. In Julia's father's case, it didn't surprise me so much after there were comments made that he could have all of her attention. He didn't need to entertain possible son - in- laws, however I also feel like he used Julia because she was gay. By giving Julia his consent and accepting her it keep their relationship close, however he might of done this because it covered up all of his affairs. My question was did Julia ever see her father and her relationship this way, or was she just happy that her father accepted her? -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
The second part that I thought was the most interesting was her encounter with Amelia Earhart. It shows how cautious girls were towards other girls. I feel that these women were so unsure about themselves that they really had to question others more. Especially since this was one of her earlier encounters, it shows that in the beginning Julia was very timid about her sexuality. Since she was shy about her self, she wasn't going to go out and put the moves on every girl, especially not Earhart. But as she gets older her "sense" gets stronger, through all the trips she took with her father. She could tell which woman was the "odd" one of the bunch, I also feel that over the years other women started to feel a little more comfortable with being gay and showing it a little more. Which made it easier for women like Julia to point out the "odd" girl. My only question was were there women like today who went through these phases of lesbians and then just turned straight and marry? Or was it because society was starting to see lesbians for what they were and women felt pressured to become straight live the way society wants them to? -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
Kennedy uses the case of Julia to discuss the discretion of lesbianism in the early 1900’s. There were, however, many other aspects to Julia’s identity than just her sexuality. This is pointed on page 415, when Kennedy states “she came into her womanhood as a lesbian, as a college student, as the daughter of a father who was prominent citizen and business owner, and as the daughter of a mother who was strongly independent yet part of an established small-town protestant family.” Given this, the discretion of Julia’s sexuality may have been because it would have been a trait that overshadowed the others; it may have become her only identifying factor in the public eye as opposed to just one of many. Could there have been any other traits during this time that people felt the need to cover-up, other than sexuality? And how true is this still today? --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
Lesbianism wasn’t something that could be discriminated against publicly; this is in contrast to other aspects of one’s identity such as gender or race, which could once have been discriminated against legally. Yet Julia still feared that if she was obvious about how she felt then she would not be able to receive all the benefits and privileges of her class. Which would be harder to deal with, discrimination by law or discrimination by society? --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
<br />
All I have to say is, wow. I know there are still a lot of problems with accepting lesbianism today, but to read that a father accepted it and used it to his advantage was incredibly. I feel that even lesbianism today is kept quite because most people seem not to always accept it, however not as much as the 1920s and 1930s. There are gay rights movements and things like ‘gay day’ at theme or amusement parks, which to me shouts “we accept all people of sexual preferences.” That could also just be a money marketing scam… However, I really did enjoy this piece by Elizabeth Kennedy because going through the public school system I had friends that I knew were lesbians, but we never talked about it, not even when they would have a break up with their girlfriend. If there was a break-up we would take the friend for ice-cream or something, but nothing was ever said about the situation. –Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
<br />
I pity the most definitely unsatisfied woman married to that Dr. Carlton C. Frederick! His unqualified theories on woman were as sexist as Freud's of that same time period (the grotesque double standard was very popular then)! This article compared to the survey's of Dr. Mosher were so starkly different, I wonder what kind of effect the controversy had over the general population-and more importantly over the general female population? His assertive views on Nymphomaniacs has actually made me question the sexism based around that "disorder"-I would be interested in further study of the history of Nymphomania as recognized by physicians and society. Also in consideration of mental disorders: this article is part of the great slew of material that prolonged the accepted myth that homosexuality is a mental illness well into the early 70s in American. I don't know how doctors could do it back then- to use unsubstantiated views as evidence for such sexist publications! ~~Jackie Reed<br />
<br />
I agree with Jackie that Dr. Frederick was a wack job! Where on earth did he get his information from. It really makes you wonder how many doctors in those days actually did any kind of research or if they were simply stuck on a certain view of women and because they were a doctor they felt that gave them authority and validation to what their theory on the female and sex was.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
I agree with Jackie about the Dr. Frederick essay. My question is: Was Frederick saying that nymphomania in women, was when they acheived the same level of sexuality and deisre that men had? Or was it on some completely different level? Also I found it disturbing, and almost funny how he so easily bridged a gap between masturbation and pedophelia.----Landon Davis<br />
<br />
There were several parts of the reading off the wiki that fit in perfectly with the companionate marriage we discussed in class today. Most noticeably the second passage from extracts from the Mosher Survey, respondent 10 was qouted as "I think for man and woman married from love, it may be used temperately, as one of the highest manifestations of love." This passage exemplifies the break from the repressive victorian era ideals of marriage, that women should not enjoy sex, and that it should be used primarily for reproduction. Another example was the second letter to Sanger, the man was asking for details of contraception, not for (entirely) selfish reasons, he seemed genuinely concerned about his wife's welfare and happiness. ----Landon Davis<br />
<br />
After reading the online reading something that stuck out to me the most was the letters to Margaret Sanger. I found it surprising that men and women were actually staying away from their spouses because they don't want anymore children. Because birth control was not offered to women, and especially women who lived in rural areas, it was ruining marriages. In letter number 4 the wife was actually thinking about their financial stability knowing they can not have another child and all the husband wants is sex not really caring about the situation. This whole concept of the companion family caused higher expectations, however in these letters the women and or men mention that they love their spouse dearly but because they don't want to reproduce tears them apart. If there was such a big problem with divorce rates increasing and infidelity then why wasn't this taken into account? Is it because people are just to afraid to talk about sex? -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
I agree with Landon and also saw many parallels between the discussion of the companionate family in class and also in society today. Blanchard and Manasses' discussion of courtship points out that men and women were able to "become intimately acquainted" before marriage and discuss openly and equally about their opinions of married life before they were married. The notion that men and women must be compatible personalities, working together as partners in all areas demonstrates the new ideal. Yet there are still hidden facets of Victorian ideals engrained into the companionate marriage. The "lurking fear that she may seem too passionate, and her husband may suspect what still seems to her dreadful secret, she cannot give herself up to free enjoyment of his love," still alludes to the idea that women are not supposed to enjoy sex and when they do there is something morally wrong with them. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
I also saw a parallel between Blanchard and Manasses' discussion and society's ideals today. Sex education, and the lack thereof, is still a problem. Many schools still strictly follow an abstinence only program and students are left uneducated about where to go for family planning options. In many cases women still grow up experiencing "conditioned responses toward sex" in which parents have punished any form of sexual expression. The experiences of women described in this reading (anxiety, embarressment, guilt) caused by society's ideals still strongly exist. Their discussion was a liberal view and today this view would be considered conservative but how much have the ideals of women's sexuality changed from the early 20th century? -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
<br />
I was surprised after reading the "Extracts from the Mosher Survey, 1892-1913" because I did not realize that it seemed that most women did not have knowledge of sexual physiology before marriage. I'm guessing most of the men knew though. I think the 'birds and the bees' was mostly explained by my teachers when I was in 4th or 5th grade, or around age 9 or 10. Times have changed considerably, but I wonder how many U.S. females are raised in such a way still that they do not know much about it. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
<br />
So, as everyone knows, I hate the idea of using Lysol as a means of contraception. As a result, reading the one interview with Respondent 44 made me cringe. Bichloride? Really? I'm assuming they used the mercury compound since I saw another interviewee discuss it and I almost fell over. That stuff is dangerous so it astounded me that it had "no effect" as she stated. It never ceases to amaze me the lengths to which people would go to prevent pregnancies in the early 20th century. It was interesting to read all of the interviews though and compare and contrast them. The differences were slight because the years were relatively close together, but the shifts in belief about the purposes of intercourse emphasized that shift from a "sex is for male pleasure and reproduction only" world to a "women can like it too" sort of atmosphere. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
After reading the respondents from Mosher I was surprised to find out how many women really knew nothing about sex once they were married. I knew that it was somthing not talked about, but to be a women just married and not knowing what sex even was had to be scary and maybe even confusing to them. Did the husbands know though? What I also thought was interesting about their resoponses was that those who did try some kind of means to prevent pregnancy, when asked if their health was effected they all said no. The things they used didn't sound like very safe things, but what I've come to realize by these readings this week is that women seemed to be desperate for anything to have some kind of control over conception, but were the men just as desperate in hopes that something would emerge to prevent pregnancy once there were so many children already in the family too?--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
I flat out laughed when I read the beginning of "The Manifestations of Nymphomania." What I thought was so interesting about this reading, besides the ideology that if women liked sex as much as men the world would be one giant brothel, was that this was documented at the turn of the century. I think it's a good example of the mentality some conservatives were trying to hold on to as the "new woman" burst onto the scene. I just didn't really understand his distinction between "insane" and the "not insane." Were the insane and mildly insane nymphomaniacs the ones that went into bars and started flirting with men, etc? -- Kelly Wuyscik</div>Michellehttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_8_Questions/Comments328--Week 8 Questions/Comments2008-03-12T15:54:44Z<p>Michelle: </p>
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<div>THE ONLINE READING IS LOCATED HERE: [http://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/docs/MP-Reading.pdf Week 8 Reading]<br />
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In this week's reading of "'But We Would Never Talk about it': The Structures of Lesbian Discretion in South Dakota, 1928-1933" by Elizabeth Lapovsky Kennedy, the idea that struck me the deepest was the thought that the now extinct sensibility that existed during the first half of the twentieth century actually helped a minority people. Having unofficial social mores and a respect for others' privacy allowed for lesbians who were white to live productive lives as long as they lived according to same social standards that ruled the lives of heterosexual women. This custom appears to have created a type of equality that may or may not exist today. Given the fact that the majority of the things that many homosexual couples are fighting for today did not yet exist for heterosexual couples, it would seem as if during this point in time, lesbianism was treated as an extreme eccentricity that should be controlled out of respect for one's neighbors. --Justin Mattos<br />
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I did not find it as surprising that is was so possible for Julia Boyer Reinstein's family to accept her lesbianism. While I am sure that her mother and father would have preferred to have a son-in-law, that the father enjoyed not having to entertain potential male suitors and having someone who would cover up his extramaterial affairs should not be overlooked. In a certain sense, I think what made her lesbianism easier to accept than if Julia Boyer Reinstein had been a homosexual male was that the society in which she lived was patriarchal and thus the desires of the father won out over the desires of the mother, and her father really did not care whether she enjoyed a heterosexual marriage or not. --Justin Mattos<br />
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So then does the tying of sexuality with politics and identity mischaracterize people and their politics, concerns, and histories? --Justin Mattos<br />
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After reading "But we would never talk about it" I didn't feel surprised about any of it. Being a lesbian back then was not defined as it was today. It was common for women to confide in each other and sleep in the same bed and have an intimate relationship. However, a lot of people did not know what was really going on behind closed doors, which I feel is a reason why no one every talked about it. The only thing that did surprise me was that her parents were ok with it all. There is a passage that talks about how her mother would make a comment about how she wasn't with this one boy, but in the end her being a lesbian didn't bother her, she was actually very polite to Dorothy. In Julia's father's case, it didn't surprise me so much after there were comments made that he could have all of her attention. He didn't need to entertain possible son - in- laws, however I also feel like he used Julia because she was gay. By giving Julia his consent and accepting her it keep their relationship close, however he might of done this because it covered up all of his affairs. My question was did Julia ever see her father and her relationship this way, or was she just happy that her father accepted her? -- Amanda Taub<br />
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The second part that I thought was the most interesting was her encounter with Amelia Earhart. It shows how cautious girls were towards other girls. I feel that these women were so unsure about themselves that they really had to question others more. Especially since this was one of her earlier encounters, it shows that in the beginning Julia was very timid about her sexuality. Since she was shy about her self, she wasn't going to go out and put the moves on every girl, especially not Earhart. But as she gets older her "sense" gets stronger, through all the trips she took with her father. She could tell which woman was the "odd" one of the bunch, I also feel that over the years other women started to feel a little more comfortable with being gay and showing it a little more. Which made it easier for women like Julia to point out the "odd" girl. My only question was were there women like today who went through these phases of lesbians and then just turned straight and marry? Or was it because society was starting to see lesbians for what they were and women felt pressured to become straight live the way society wants them to? -- Amanda Taub<br />
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Kennedy uses the case of Julia to discuss the discretion of lesbianism in the early 1900’s. There were, however, many other aspects to Julia’s identity than just her sexuality. This is pointed on page 415, when Kennedy states “she came into her womanhood as a lesbian, as a college student, as the daughter of a father who was prominent citizen and business owner, and as the daughter of a mother who was strongly independent yet part of an established small-town protestant family.” Given this, the discretion of Julia’s sexuality may have been because it would have been a trait that overshadowed the others; it may have become her only identifying factor in the public eye as opposed to just one of many. Could there have been any other traits during this time that people felt the need to cover-up, other than sexuality? And how true is this still today? --Jessica Kilday<br />
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Lesbianism wasn’t something that could be discriminated against publicly; this is in contrast to other aspects of one’s identity such as gender or race, which could once have been discriminated against legally. Yet Julia still feared that if she was obvious about how she felt then she would not be able to receive all the benefits and privileges of her class. Which would be harder to deal with, discrimination by law or discrimination by society? --Jessica Kilday<br />
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All I have to say is, wow. I know there are still a lot of problems with accepting lesbianism today, but to read that a father accepted it and used it to his advantage was incredibly. I feel that even lesbianism today is kept quite because most people seem not to always accept it, however not as much as the 1920s and 1930s. There are gay rights movements and things like ‘gay day’ at theme or amusement parks, which to me shouts “we accept all people of sexual preferences.” That could also just be a money marketing scam… However, I really did enjoy this piece by Elizabeth Kennedy because going through the public school system I had friends that I knew were lesbians, but we never talked about it, not even when they would have a break up with their girlfriend. If there was a break-up we would take the friend for ice-cream or something, but nothing was ever said about the situation. –Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I pity the most definitely unsatisfied woman married to that Dr. Carlton C. Frederick! His unqualified theories on woman were as sexist as Freud's of that same time period (the grotesque double standard was very popular then)! This article compared to the survey's of Dr. Mosher were so starkly different, I wonder what kind of effect the controversy had over the general population-and more importantly over the general female population? His assertive views on Nymphomaniacs has actually made me question the sexism based around that "disorder"-I would be interested in further study of the history of Nymphomania as recognized by physicians and society. Also in consideration of mental disorders: this article is part of the great slew of material that prolonged the accepted myth that homosexuality is a mental illness well into the early 70s in American. I don't know how doctors could do it back then- to use unsubstantiated views as evidence for such sexist publications! ~~Jackie Reed<br />
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I agree with Jackie about the Dr. Frederick essay. My question is: Was Frederick saying that nymphomania in women, was when they acheived the same level of sexuality and deisre that men had? Or was it on some completely different level? Also I found it disturbing, and almost funny how he so easily bridged a gap between masturbation and pedophelia.----Landon Davis<br />
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There were several parts of the reading off the wiki that fit in perfectly with the companionate marriage we discussed in class today. Most noticeably the second passage from extracts from the Mosher Survey, respondent 10 was qouted as "I think for man and woman married from love, it may be used temperately, as one of the highest manifestations of love." This passage exemplifies the break from the repressive victorian era ideals of marriage, that women should not enjoy sex, and that it should be used primarily for reproduction. Another example was the second letter to Sanger, the man was asking for details of contraception, not for (entirely) selfish reasons, he seemed genuinely concerned about his wife's welfare and happiness. ----Landon Davis<br />
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After reading the online reading something that stuck out to me the most was the letters to Margaret Sanger. I found it surprising that men and women were actually staying away from their spouses because they don't want anymore children. Because birth control was not offered to women, and especially women who lived in rural areas, it was ruining marriages. In letter number 4 the wife was actually thinking about their financial stability knowing they can not have another child and all the husband wants is sex not really caring about the situation. This whole concept of the companion family caused higher expectations, however in these letters the women and or men mention that they love their spouse dearly but because they don't want to reproduce tears them apart. If there was such a big problem with divorce rates increasing and infidelity then why wasn't this taken into account? Is it because people are just to afraid to talk about sex? -- Amanda Taub<br />
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I agree with Landon and also saw many parallels between the discussion of the companionate family in class and also in society today. Blanchard and Manasses' discussion of courtship points out that men and women were able to "become intimately acquainted" before marriage and discuss openly and equally about their opinions of married life before they were married. The notion that men and women must be compatible personalities, working together as partners in all areas demonstrates the new ideal. Yet there are still hidden facets of Victorian ideals engrained into the companionate marriage. The "lurking fear that she may seem too passionate, and her husband may suspect what still seems to her dreadful secret, she cannot give herself up to free enjoyment of his love," still alludes to the idea that women are not supposed to enjoy sex and when they do there is something morally wrong with them. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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I also saw a parallel between Blanchard and Manasses' discussion and society's ideals today. Sex education, and the lack thereof, is still a problem. Many schools still strictly follow an abstinence only program and students are left uneducated about where to go for family planning options. In many cases women still grow up experiencing "conditioned responses toward sex" in which parents have punished any form of sexual expression. The experiences of women described in this reading (anxiety, embarressment, guilt) caused by society's ideals still strongly exist. Their discussion was a liberal view and today this view would be considered conservative but how much have the ideals of women's sexuality changed from the early 20th century? -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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I was surprised after reading the "Extracts from the Mosher Survey, 1892-1913" because I did not realize that it seemed that most women did not have knowledge of sexual physiology before marriage. I'm guessing most of the men knew though. I think the 'birds and the bees' was mostly explained by my teachers when I was in 4th or 5th grade, or around age 9 or 10. Times have changed considerably, but I wonder how many U.S. females are raised in such a way still that they do not know much about it. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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So, as everyone knows, I hate the idea of using Lysol as a means of contraception. As a result, reading the one interview with Respondent 44 made me cringe. Bichloride? Really? I'm assuming they used the mercury compound since I saw another interviewee discuss it and I almost fell over. That stuff is dangerous so it astounded me that it had "no effect" as she stated. It never ceases to amaze me the lengths to which people would go to prevent pregnancies in the early 20th century. It was interesting to read all of the interviews though and compare and contrast them. The differences were slight because the years were relatively close together, but the shifts in belief about the purposes of intercourse emphasized that shift from a "sex is for male pleasure and reproduction only" world to a "women can like it too" sort of atmosphere. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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After reading the respondents from Mosher I was surprised to find out how many women really knew nothing about sex once they were married. I knew that it was somthing not talked about, but to be a women just married and not knowing what sex even was had to be scary and maybe even confusing to them. Did the husbands know though? What I also thought was interesting about their resoponses was that those who did try some kind of means to prevent pregnancy, when asked if their health was effected they all said no. The things they used didn't sound like very safe things, but what I've come to realize by these readings this week is that women seemed to be desperate for anything to have some kind of control over conception, but were the men just as desperate in hopes that something would emerge to prevent pregnancy once there were so many children already in the family too?--Michelle M.</div>Michellehttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_7_Questions/Comments328--Week 7 Questions/Comments2008-02-26T01:21:54Z<p>Michelle: </p>
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<div>"Anxious Mothers write the Children’s Bureau" deals with the health problems related to women and infants. People concerned wrote to the Children’s Bureau of the Department of Labor, which was formed until 1912. Before this, and even after this, was there anything for people to turn to on more of a local level? In addition, the first letter points out that the doctor was not available while the woman was giving birth, and the last letter points out the deficiencies in the profession. Was it more common or more reliable to see a midwife during this time? <br />
--Jessica Kilday<br />
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I think it is interesting to look at the women’s movement and how it evolved in different generations. Bromely begins by looking at the term “feminism” and how some people thought that this meant a young woman who had a job and who is no longer “old fashioned.” She looks at generational gaps between women in their twenties and women in their forties. If you were to make this breakdown today, how would women’s opinions on feminism differ? –Jessica Kilday<br />
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With women having the ability to vote, I think it would have been interesting to track votes by gender and if a wife's vote was the same or opposite as her husband. Did females double the number of votes or was their a clear difference between what women found as important issues vs. the men? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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I was shocked to read about the KKK. I had no idea in 1925 there were between 3 and 4 million American members involved. Also to read there were 500,000 women in a a "Women of the KKK" scares me. What drew all these individuals into this organization? Why so many women in 1925 and fewer in the later years? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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Like Rose I found the article "Women of the Ku Klux Klan" interesting. While I was not that surprised on how many women were involved in it, especially seeing how much dislike the Southern states had towards blacks, and I remembered learning that Jews were becoming to be targets of the KKK I didn't remember that the Catholics were also targets. Although I didn't remember this, seeing how the majority, if not all of the members, were white protestants it does kind of make sense. Though what I found most interesting was the fact that section 2 of the Constitution of and laws of the WKKK stated that the group would be military in character, and I would have thought these women would want to avoid that categorization since it was not very lady-like.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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The Feminists--New Style of "Generational Conflicts" by Dorothy Dunbar Bromley seemed to be considerably naive. Was it really possible for a women to have a successful career during the 1920's and 1930's that could provide economic freedom? Was it as easy as these new feminists presented it to be?---Justin Mattos<br />
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In "New Voters" by Carrie Chapman Catt, I found it notable that Catt thought of political change as only possible through political parties. This view differs from, what I guess is a more idealistic, view that the parties can be affected by grass roots movements. I guess her view of politics must have been shaped by her experiences fighting for women's suffrage. --Justin Mattos<br />
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I really like Carrie Chapman Catt's piece, "New Voters." She made an excellent point that now that women had the right to vote, they needed to do something with it. Since they were now seen on an "equal" platform with men when it came to casting votes, why not move yourself up higher in the political realm? That had been one of my questions actually, what were women going to fight for now that they had the right to vote? And was there something to fight for? Well, obviously, in Carrie Chapman Catt's opinion there was. It just makes me wonder if they would have been more successful had Catt been able to be a bigger part of this "new movement." She made the comment, "Younger and fresher women must do that work, and because I cannot advise and cannot follow, I only point to the fact that the battle is there..." and I just feel that with all she did for the suffrage movement, this next battle would have been fought better with her at the forefront. And, just for kicks, I liked the comment, "Women must not be content until they are as independent within the party as men are, which isn't saying much." She's so funny. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I found the debate about an Equal Rights Amendment to be fairly interesting. Of the two debates, I, with my modern understanding of things, believe that the argument in favor of the Equal Rights Amendment was a way to achieve gender equality. Having to wait for equality and legislate for women separately seems to play into gender stereotypes instead of defusing them which should ultimately be the purpose of whatever course of action that should be undertaken. --Justin Mattos<br />
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I found "Generational Conflicts" extremely interesting because it seemed like many of the reasons that the women of the 1920s didn't want to be associated with the term 'feminist' are the same reasons that many people today don't want to be. These reasons include the desire to not be seen as man haters, the idea that they wouldn't live for only her husband or her job but rather would balance the two arenas, and had a desire to still wear feminine clothes which the older generation who called themselves feminists did not want to do.-Elizabeth Frank<br />
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I also found the debate very interesting as well as a challenging topic to side one way on. In a perfect world I would side with Stevens and the National Women's Party in terms of equality for both sexes. Although at that point in history it is easy to see how many women wouldn't want to be held to those standards in the work place. I think that Hamilton's arguement was best made when she looked to Holland. Instead of "taking privilege away from the women" (126) the privileges were given to the men. The debate brings up a very important point: where is the line that separates women and men and how do you draw that line while maintaining equality? -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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In Nella Larsen's ''Passing'' was very upsetting to read about Clare's double life. It's hard to imagine growing up in a society that valued "pure blood" so strongly that you would deny your ancestry in order to be a part of a soceity that would shun you if they knew the truth. I thought it was an interesting situation to think "if I was in Irene's shoes in the 1920's, what would I do?" -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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"If you really want women's vote to count, make your way there."(p.122) This inspiring phrase from Carrie Chapman Catt's speech was the crux of the newly ratified 19th amendment. Now that women had the vote, how were they going to use it? She tells them to go out and get involved. It reminds me of all the campaigns to get out the vote that we have today. Catt understands that just having the power to vote is not enough; the real power lies in how it's used. I also found it interesting that she wants them to get involved in political parties in order to make the most impact. It almost seems like going backwards becaue now they're back to working within the male controlled sphere. It goes back to contradicting the narrow-minded male perception that women would all vote the same on issues. -Kendall Haring<br />
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Was passing a common practice? It seems that passing would not only be infeasible but also extremely uncomfortable. I cannot imagine the pressure and strain of trying to live your life while having to lie to everyone around you and deserting your family. Do these sacrifices speak to the huge difference in standards of living between white and black Americans in this time period? Were conditions so bad for the black/mixed race people that they were willing to make this huge sacrifice and pretend to be someone else? Or was this just a few opportunistic greedy girls trying to get ahead one way or another? Also did any men successfully try and do this? -- Landon Davis<br />
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I have the same question as Landon, how common was "passing"? It doesn't seem like something anyone would want to do because I feel like living a double life would be such a hassle. At the same time, though, it was amazing to read Clare's statement about how much easier white people had it. "You'd be surprised, 'Rene, how much easier that is with white people than with us." But her explanations why seemed kind of naive in my opinion. Saying that it was either because of how many more white people there were or because they were secure enough with themselves doesn't seem like a satisfying answer. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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For the first time in this class I saw a glimpse of what I would consider the modern woman. In Dorothy Bromley's writing she describes the 3rd generation feminists and how they didn't hate men, how they were concerned with being fashionable, and how they were more concerend with economic independence than with reform. Before this reading all the women we have studied or read about either seemed to submissive to resemble any females I consider to be contemporary, or they were far more radical and militant than the average woman in America today. -----Landon Davis<br />
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I really enjoyed the readings for this week. I thought it was interesting to read all the letters from the mothers to the Children's Bureau. The horror that one mother went throught just because she had a doctor who was not fully qualified and her desire for some sort of governmental check on all doctors to prevent such a terrible experience from happening again. -- Christine Wuebker<br />
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The other article I really like was "Feminist-New Style" by Dorothy Dunbar Bromley. It is the first time we see the formation of a modern woman. I also thought her description of the different generations of women was interesting. I was surprised she didn't talk about flappers. Today they are the most recognized women of the 1920s. I would have thought she would have at least mentioned them in her article. -- Christine Wuebker<br />
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I agree with Christine about the letters to the Children's Bureau. They were all so interesting, the one about the mother who was worried about marking her baby was my favorite. Even though you hear of all the myths today that women worry about it was strange to hear this one. I have heard where craving certain food can help determine the sex of the baby but I had never heard that not eating a food that you are craving and then touching your face would mark the baby in someway. Where did these myths start? -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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The "Women of the Ku Klux Klan" document was really interesting. I was very surprised with the detailed constitution of the organization. Even though this was one way for women to become involved in politics it impressed me to the extent that the constitution went. It included the organization's objectives & purposes, membership and offenses & penalties. The type of offenses listed really surprised me, it never would have occurred to me to list "disrespect of virtuous womanhood." I would have thought that that offense would have been a given, but at the same time it is left up to individual interpretation of what would be considered disrespect. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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I am in the same boat as Christine and Kellye, I really enjoyed the reading from the Children's Bureau. The talk of malpractice and myths was rather interesting, just what women had to go through with pregnancy and to get a doctor who isn't all that great with child birth. Also the myths that were there were just amazing, like the one Kelley mentioned where a not eating the food your longing for will mark or harm the child in some way. How do these myths start anyways? and why do women believe them? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I knew that there was a Women of the KKK, but I did not have any type of understanding of how many members and their Kreed. I found just the in depth of the Kreed amazing. It covered membership, objections, offenses and punishments. I found it interesting that there was a donation of $10 required... unless your husband was in the original KKK. Does the WKKK or the KKK still exist today? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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http://www.kkk.bz/ Oh yes, they're still here. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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In "Anxious Mothers Write the Children's Bureau" I was shocked about how women would already have children but are still asking for pamphlets.I can understand they want the newest information, but Mrs. W.M. has three healthy boys, and is due to have another child. However she wants to know about caring for your baby. I found it interesting that these women were giving birth w/o a Dr. present, and then in the second letter, the Dr. is a quack. The second letter brought up a vaild point that these children are everyones futures. What I don't understand is then why are there not good Doctors and why women that live 8 miles away, why don't they try to take residence somewhere closer to them?-- Amanda Taub<br />
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Something that I found rather comical when reading the intro to the WKKK was that they made a point to say one perk of the WKKK was every member in good standing got a free white robe and helmet. The fact that, that is the perk that is listed is ridiculous, I can imagine a women being like "I don't know all of what we stand for but we get a free outfit." Also what I really liked was how this horrible organization was seen as, by the women involved, "a splendid opportunity for friendship and solidarity .... Just a celebration... a way of growing up." This just baffles me because these women are part of an horrible organization almost as an excuse to make friends and have fun and celebrate growing up. I know it was accepted during the time period but are these women that naive and ridiculous? -- Amanda Taub<br />
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As much as I love being able to see a correlation between the 3rd Generation girls in "Feminist - New Style" and the modern American woman, it bothers me how unappreciative those girls seemed to be about all that had been accomplished, especially with the 2nd generation. True, feminist had a bit of a negative connotation because of how radical most of the suffragists were and it still has that "man-hating" connotation today, but what those women accomplished took a heck of a lot of work and energy. It just makes me wonder, are women today just as unappreciative of what other women had to suffer and fight for to give us the luxuries we have today? I certainly hope not. I do, however, like the last line, "If this be treason gentlemen, make the most of it." I did like this article a lot, and I like how Dorothe Dunbar Bromley emphasized how women should take control of their lives. But it just kind of bugged me how much she ragged on the 1st and 2nd generation women. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I was shocked as well when I read about the WKKK. It just amazes me that more and more people were getting better educations but still people fell back on the "I am better than you" mentality. It amazes me that in their kreed they refer to having good morals and reputations and how patriotic they thought they were. I don't get how "White Supremecy" equals patriotism especially considering some of the things that the KKK would do. I know that my grandparents grew up in the 30's and they never supported these groups because my grandma always said violence against anyone was wrong but they had the same mentality towards different religions and blacks as these racial groups did. How did they reconcile the being a good Christian and believing in Jesus Christ like their Kreed says but then treat others the way they did?~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
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I was also very interested in reading teh "Generational Conflicts" by Dorothy Bromley. I found myself agreeing with alot that she says. I think that the feminists of the 1970's had the same kind of reputation of being antagonizers of men or as being man haters like the feminist-new style of the 20's thought the older feminists were. I remember growing up in the 70's and being adamant that I did not want to be known as a feminist when I grew up! I still hate that term because of the negative image I have from the Femi-nazis of the 70's but I guess my beliefs are very much "feminist". How did the feminist-new style turn into the femi-nazis of the 70's? Is it just a normal "cycle" of generations and the old "history repeats itself" argument or did something specific happen to cause the feminist to revert to the more militant end of the spectrum again?~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
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In Dorothy Bromley's essay she talks about the new modern women, and how they are an individual and independent. However she says, "And in this era of simplified housekeeping they see their oportunity.." (128) What does she mean by simplyfied housekeeping? Does she mean simplyfied because of new technology in cleaning appliances and products or something else? Also with this new oportunity of free time women are going to do something they enjoy, so what do they do in their new free time?--Michelle M.<br />
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The WKKK article was very interesting because I had no idea that there was a KKK for women alone. I knew that the ones who had husbands in the KKK supported them, but that they actually had their own group, wow. Under the Constitution and Laws part of the article it says the "Order shall ever be military in character..." (136) How militaristic and ritualistic were they? Did they often commit violent act againt those they oppesed like the usual burning of a cross or throwing bricks through peoples windows?--Michelle M.<br />
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In Doris Stevens essay, she makes the point of realization that just because women have the right to vote now, does not mean that they will have eaqual rights still in other things. This is only the first step, because women are still seen as lesser than men. Did men or women or both think that now that women have the right to vote that it will make them happy and go away? Because equal voting did not solve the problem of equal rights all around.--Michelle M.</div>Michellehttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_7_Questions/Comments328--Week 7 Questions/Comments2008-02-26T01:21:21Z<p>Michelle: </p>
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<div>"Anxious Mothers write the Children’s Bureau" deals with the health problems related to women and infants. People concerned wrote to the Children’s Bureau of the Department of Labor, which was formed until 1912. Before this, and even after this, was there anything for people to turn to on more of a local level? In addition, the first letter points out that the doctor was not available while the woman was giving birth, and the last letter points out the deficiencies in the profession. Was it more common or more reliable to see a midwife during this time? <br />
--Jessica Kilday<br />
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I think it is interesting to look at the women’s movement and how it evolved in different generations. Bromely begins by looking at the term “feminism” and how some people thought that this meant a young woman who had a job and who is no longer “old fashioned.” She looks at generational gaps between women in their twenties and women in their forties. If you were to make this breakdown today, how would women’s opinions on feminism differ? –Jessica Kilday<br />
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With women having the ability to vote, I think it would have been interesting to track votes by gender and if a wife's vote was the same or opposite as her husband. Did females double the number of votes or was their a clear difference between what women found as important issues vs. the men? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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I was shocked to read about the KKK. I had no idea in 1925 there were between 3 and 4 million American members involved. Also to read there were 500,000 women in a a "Women of the KKK" scares me. What drew all these individuals into this organization? Why so many women in 1925 and fewer in the later years? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
<br />
Like Rose I found the article "Women of the Ku Klux Klan" interesting. While I was not that surprised on how many women were involved in it, especially seeing how much dislike the Southern states had towards blacks, and I remembered learning that Jews were becoming to be targets of the KKK I didn't remember that the Catholics were also targets. Although I didn't remember this, seeing how the majority, if not all of the members, were white protestants it does kind of make sense. Though what I found most interesting was the fact that section 2 of the Constitution of and laws of the WKKK stated that the group would be military in character, and I would have thought these women would want to avoid that categorization since it was not very lady-like.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
The Feminists--New Style of "Generational Conflicts" by Dorothy Dunbar Bromley seemed to be considerably naive. Was it really possible for a women to have a successful career during the 1920's and 1930's that could provide economic freedom? Was it as easy as these new feminists presented it to be?---Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
In "New Voters" by Carrie Chapman Catt, I found it notable that Catt thought of political change as only possible through political parties. This view differs from, what I guess is a more idealistic, view that the parties can be affected by grass roots movements. I guess her view of politics must have been shaped by her experiences fighting for women's suffrage. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I really like Carrie Chapman Catt's piece, "New Voters." She made an excellent point that now that women had the right to vote, they needed to do something with it. Since they were now seen on an "equal" platform with men when it came to casting votes, why not move yourself up higher in the political realm? That had been one of my questions actually, what were women going to fight for now that they had the right to vote? And was there something to fight for? Well, obviously, in Carrie Chapman Catt's opinion there was. It just makes me wonder if they would have been more successful had Catt been able to be a bigger part of this "new movement." She made the comment, "Younger and fresher women must do that work, and because I cannot advise and cannot follow, I only point to the fact that the battle is there..." and I just feel that with all she did for the suffrage movement, this next battle would have been fought better with her at the forefront. And, just for kicks, I liked the comment, "Women must not be content until they are as independent within the party as men are, which isn't saying much." She's so funny. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
I found the debate about an Equal Rights Amendment to be fairly interesting. Of the two debates, I, with my modern understanding of things, believe that the argument in favor of the Equal Rights Amendment was a way to achieve gender equality. Having to wait for equality and legislate for women separately seems to play into gender stereotypes instead of defusing them which should ultimately be the purpose of whatever course of action that should be undertaken. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I found "Generational Conflicts" extremely interesting because it seemed like many of the reasons that the women of the 1920s didn't want to be associated with the term 'feminist' are the same reasons that many people today don't want to be. These reasons include the desire to not be seen as man haters, the idea that they wouldn't live for only her husband or her job but rather would balance the two arenas, and had a desire to still wear feminine clothes which the older generation who called themselves feminists did not want to do.-Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
I also found the debate very interesting as well as a challenging topic to side one way on. In a perfect world I would side with Stevens and the National Women's Party in terms of equality for both sexes. Although at that point in history it is easy to see how many women wouldn't want to be held to those standards in the work place. I think that Hamilton's arguement was best made when she looked to Holland. Instead of "taking privilege away from the women" (126) the privileges were given to the men. The debate brings up a very important point: where is the line that separates women and men and how do you draw that line while maintaining equality? -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
In Nella Larsen's ''Passing'' was very upsetting to read about Clare's double life. It's hard to imagine growing up in a society that valued "pure blood" so strongly that you would deny your ancestry in order to be a part of a soceity that would shun you if they knew the truth. I thought it was an interesting situation to think "if I was in Irene's shoes in the 1920's, what would I do?" -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
"If you really want women's vote to count, make your way there."(p.122) This inspiring phrase from Carrie Chapman Catt's speech was the crux of the newly ratified 19th amendment. Now that women had the vote, how were they going to use it? She tells them to go out and get involved. It reminds me of all the campaigns to get out the vote that we have today. Catt understands that just having the power to vote is not enough; the real power lies in how it's used. I also found it interesting that she wants them to get involved in political parties in order to make the most impact. It almost seems like going backwards becaue now they're back to working within the male controlled sphere. It goes back to contradicting the narrow-minded male perception that women would all vote the same on issues. -Kendall Haring<br />
<br />
Was passing a common practice? It seems that passing would not only be infeasible but also extremely uncomfortable. I cannot imagine the pressure and strain of trying to live your life while having to lie to everyone around you and deserting your family. Do these sacrifices speak to the huge difference in standards of living between white and black Americans in this time period? Were conditions so bad for the black/mixed race people that they were willing to make this huge sacrifice and pretend to be someone else? Or was this just a few opportunistic greedy girls trying to get ahead one way or another? Also did any men successfully try and do this? -- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I have the same question as Landon, how common was "passing"? It doesn't seem like something anyone would want to do because I feel like living a double life would be such a hassle. At the same time, though, it was amazing to read Clare's statement about how much easier white people had it. "You'd be surprised, 'Rene, how much easier that is with white people than with us." But her explanations why seemed kind of naive in my opinion. Saying that it was either because of how many more white people there were or because they were secure enough with themselves doesn't seem like a satisfying answer. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
For the first time in this class I saw a glimpse of what I would consider the modern woman. In Dorothy Bromley's writing she describes the 3rd generation feminists and how they didn't hate men, how they were concerned with being fashionable, and how they were more concerend with economic independence than with reform. Before this reading all the women we have studied or read about either seemed to submissive to resemble any females I consider to be contemporary, or they were far more radical and militant than the average woman in America today. -----Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I really enjoyed the readings for this week. I thought it was interesting to read all the letters from the mothers to the Children's Bureau. The horror that one mother went throught just because she had a doctor who was not fully qualified and her desire for some sort of governmental check on all doctors to prevent such a terrible experience from happening again. -- Christine Wuebker<br />
<br />
The other article I really like was "Feminist-New Style" by Dorothy Dunbar Bromley. It is the first time we see the formation of a modern woman. I also thought her description of the different generations of women was interesting. I was surprised she didn't talk about flappers. Today they are the most recognized women of the 1920s. I would have thought she would have at least mentioned them in her article. -- Christine Wuebker<br />
<br />
I agree with Christine about the letters to the Children's Bureau. They were all so interesting, the one about the mother who was worried about marking her baby was my favorite. Even though you hear of all the myths today that women worry about it was strange to hear this one. I have heard where craving certain food can help determine the sex of the baby but I had never heard that not eating a food that you are craving and then touching your face would mark the baby in someway. Where did these myths start? -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
The "Women of the Ku Klux Klan" document was really interesting. I was very surprised with the detailed constitution of the organization. Even though this was one way for women to become involved in politics it impressed me to the extent that the constitution went. It included the organization's objectives & purposes, membership and offenses & penalties. The type of offenses listed really surprised me, it never would have occurred to me to list "disrespect of virtuous womanhood." I would have thought that that offense would have been a given, but at the same time it is left up to individual interpretation of what would be considered disrespect. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
I am in the same boat as Christine and Kellye, I really enjoyed the reading from the Children's Bureau. The talk of malpractice and myths was rather interesting, just what women had to go through with pregnancy and to get a doctor who isn't all that great with child birth. Also the myths that were there were just amazing, like the one Kelley mentioned where a not eating the food your longing for will mark or harm the child in some way. How do these myths start anyways? and why do women believe them? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I knew that there was a Women of the KKK, but I did not have any type of understanding of how many members and their Kreed. I found just the in depth of the Kreed amazing. It covered membership, objections, offenses and punishments. I found it interesting that there was a donation of $10 required... unless your husband was in the original KKK. Does the WKKK or the KKK still exist today? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
http://www.kkk.bz/ Oh yes, they're still here. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
In "Anxious Mothers Write the Children's Bureau" I was shocked about how women would already have children but are still asking for pamphlets.I can understand they want the newest information, but Mrs. W.M. has three healthy boys, and is due to have another child. However she wants to know about caring for your baby. I found it interesting that these women were giving birth w/o a Dr. present, and then in the second letter, the Dr. is a quack. The second letter brought up a vaild point that these children are everyones futures. What I don't understand is then why are there not good Doctors and why women that live 8 miles away, why don't they try to take residence somewhere closer to them?-- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
Something that I found rather comical when reading the intro to the WKKK was that they made a point to say one perk of the WKKK was every member in good standing got a free white robe and helmet. The fact that, that is the perk that is listed is ridiculous, I can imagine a women being like "I don't know all of what we stand for but we get a free outfit." Also what I really liked was how this horrible organization was seen as, by the women involved, "a splendid opportunity for friendship and solidarity .... Just a celebration... a way of growing up." This just baffles me because these women are part of an horrible organization almost as an excuse to make friends and have fun and celebrate growing up. I know it was accepted during the time period but are these women that naive and ridiculous? -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
As much as I love being able to see a correlation between the 3rd Generation girls in "Feminist - New Style" and the modern American woman, it bothers me how unappreciative those girls seemed to be about all that had been accomplished, especially with the 2nd generation. True, feminist had a bit of a negative connotation because of how radical most of the suffragists were and it still has that "man-hating" connotation today, but what those women accomplished took a heck of a lot of work and energy. It just makes me wonder, are women today just as unappreciative of what other women had to suffer and fight for to give us the luxuries we have today? I certainly hope not. I do, however, like the last line, "If this be treason gentlemen, make the most of it." I did like this article a lot, and I like how Dorothe Dunbar Bromley emphasized how women should take control of their lives. But it just kind of bugged me how much she ragged on the 1st and 2nd generation women. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
I was shocked as well when I read about the WKKK. It just amazes me that more and more people were getting better educations but still people fell back on the "I am better than you" mentality. It amazes me that in their kreed they refer to having good morals and reputations and how patriotic they thought they were. I don't get how "White Supremecy" equals patriotism especially considering some of the things that the KKK would do. I know that my grandparents grew up in the 30's and they never supported these groups because my grandma always said violence against anyone was wrong but they had the same mentality towards different religions and blacks as these racial groups did. How did they reconcile the being a good Christian and believing in Jesus Christ like their Kreed says but then treat others the way they did?~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
<br />
I was also very interested in reading teh "Generational Conflicts" by Dorothy Bromley. I found myself agreeing with alot that she says. I think that the feminists of the 1970's had the same kind of reputation of being antagonizers of men or as being man haters like the feminist-new style of the 20's thought the older feminists were. I remember growing up in the 70's and being adamant that I did not want to be known as a feminist when I grew up! I still hate that term because of the negative image I have from the Femi-nazis of the 70's but I guess my beliefs are very much "feminist". How did the feminist-new style turn into the femi-nazis of the 70's? Is it just a normal "cycle" of generations and the old "history repeats itself" argument or did something specific happen to cause the feminist to revert to the more militant end of the spectrum again?~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
<br />
In Dorothy Bromley's essay she talks about the new modern women, and how they are an individual and independent. However she says, "And in this era of simplified housekeeping they see their oportunity.." (128) What does she mean by simplyfied housekeeping? Does she mean simplyfied because of new technology in cleaning appliances and products or something else? Also with this new oportunity of free time women are going to do something they enjoy, so what do they do in their new free time?--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
The WKKK article was very interesting because I had no idea that there was a KKK for women alone. I knew that the ones who had husbands in the KKK supported them, but that they actually had their own group, wow. Under the Constitution and Laws part of the article it says the "Order shall ever be military in character..." (136) How militaristic and ritualistic were they? Did they often commit violent act againt those they oppesed like the usual burning of a cross or throwing bricks through peoples windows?--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
In Doris Stevens essay, she makes the point of realization that just because women have the right to vote now, does not mean that they will have eaqual rights still in other things. This is only the first step, because women are still seen as lesser than men. Did men or women or both think that now that women have the right to vote that it will make them happy and go away? Because equal voting did not solve the problem of equal rights all around.</div>Michellehttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_7_Questions/Comments328--Week 7 Questions/Comments2008-02-26T01:16:36Z<p>Michelle: </p>
<hr />
<div>"Anxious Mothers write the Children’s Bureau" deals with the health problems related to women and infants. People concerned wrote to the Children’s Bureau of the Department of Labor, which was formed until 1912. Before this, and even after this, was there anything for people to turn to on more of a local level? In addition, the first letter points out that the doctor was not available while the woman was giving birth, and the last letter points out the deficiencies in the profession. Was it more common or more reliable to see a midwife during this time? <br />
--Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I think it is interesting to look at the women’s movement and how it evolved in different generations. Bromely begins by looking at the term “feminism” and how some people thought that this meant a young woman who had a job and who is no longer “old fashioned.” She looks at generational gaps between women in their twenties and women in their forties. If you were to make this breakdown today, how would women’s opinions on feminism differ? –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
With women having the ability to vote, I think it would have been interesting to track votes by gender and if a wife's vote was the same or opposite as her husband. Did females double the number of votes or was their a clear difference between what women found as important issues vs. the men? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
<br />
I was shocked to read about the KKK. I had no idea in 1925 there were between 3 and 4 million American members involved. Also to read there were 500,000 women in a a "Women of the KKK" scares me. What drew all these individuals into this organization? Why so many women in 1925 and fewer in the later years? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
<br />
Like Rose I found the article "Women of the Ku Klux Klan" interesting. While I was not that surprised on how many women were involved in it, especially seeing how much dislike the Southern states had towards blacks, and I remembered learning that Jews were becoming to be targets of the KKK I didn't remember that the Catholics were also targets. Although I didn't remember this, seeing how the majority, if not all of the members, were white protestants it does kind of make sense. Though what I found most interesting was the fact that section 2 of the Constitution of and laws of the WKKK stated that the group would be military in character, and I would have thought these women would want to avoid that categorization since it was not very lady-like.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
The Feminists--New Style of "Generational Conflicts" by Dorothy Dunbar Bromley seemed to be considerably naive. Was it really possible for a women to have a successful career during the 1920's and 1930's that could provide economic freedom? Was it as easy as these new feminists presented it to be?---Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
In "New Voters" by Carrie Chapman Catt, I found it notable that Catt thought of political change as only possible through political parties. This view differs from, what I guess is a more idealistic, view that the parties can be affected by grass roots movements. I guess her view of politics must have been shaped by her experiences fighting for women's suffrage. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I really like Carrie Chapman Catt's piece, "New Voters." She made an excellent point that now that women had the right to vote, they needed to do something with it. Since they were now seen on an "equal" platform with men when it came to casting votes, why not move yourself up higher in the political realm? That had been one of my questions actually, what were women going to fight for now that they had the right to vote? And was there something to fight for? Well, obviously, in Carrie Chapman Catt's opinion there was. It just makes me wonder if they would have been more successful had Catt been able to be a bigger part of this "new movement." She made the comment, "Younger and fresher women must do that work, and because I cannot advise and cannot follow, I only point to the fact that the battle is there..." and I just feel that with all she did for the suffrage movement, this next battle would have been fought better with her at the forefront. And, just for kicks, I liked the comment, "Women must not be content until they are as independent within the party as men are, which isn't saying much." She's so funny. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
I found the debate about an Equal Rights Amendment to be fairly interesting. Of the two debates, I, with my modern understanding of things, believe that the argument in favor of the Equal Rights Amendment was a way to achieve gender equality. Having to wait for equality and legislate for women separately seems to play into gender stereotypes instead of defusing them which should ultimately be the purpose of whatever course of action that should be undertaken. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I found "Generational Conflicts" extremely interesting because it seemed like many of the reasons that the women of the 1920s didn't want to be associated with the term 'feminist' are the same reasons that many people today don't want to be. These reasons include the desire to not be seen as man haters, the idea that they wouldn't live for only her husband or her job but rather would balance the two arenas, and had a desire to still wear feminine clothes which the older generation who called themselves feminists did not want to do.-Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
I also found the debate very interesting as well as a challenging topic to side one way on. In a perfect world I would side with Stevens and the National Women's Party in terms of equality for both sexes. Although at that point in history it is easy to see how many women wouldn't want to be held to those standards in the work place. I think that Hamilton's arguement was best made when she looked to Holland. Instead of "taking privilege away from the women" (126) the privileges were given to the men. The debate brings up a very important point: where is the line that separates women and men and how do you draw that line while maintaining equality? -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
In Nella Larsen's ''Passing'' was very upsetting to read about Clare's double life. It's hard to imagine growing up in a society that valued "pure blood" so strongly that you would deny your ancestry in order to be a part of a soceity that would shun you if they knew the truth. I thought it was an interesting situation to think "if I was in Irene's shoes in the 1920's, what would I do?" -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
"If you really want women's vote to count, make your way there."(p.122) This inspiring phrase from Carrie Chapman Catt's speech was the crux of the newly ratified 19th amendment. Now that women had the vote, how were they going to use it? She tells them to go out and get involved. It reminds me of all the campaigns to get out the vote that we have today. Catt understands that just having the power to vote is not enough; the real power lies in how it's used. I also found it interesting that she wants them to get involved in political parties in order to make the most impact. It almost seems like going backwards becaue now they're back to working within the male controlled sphere. It goes back to contradicting the narrow-minded male perception that women would all vote the same on issues. -Kendall Haring<br />
<br />
Was passing a common practice? It seems that passing would not only be infeasible but also extremely uncomfortable. I cannot imagine the pressure and strain of trying to live your life while having to lie to everyone around you and deserting your family. Do these sacrifices speak to the huge difference in standards of living between white and black Americans in this time period? Were conditions so bad for the black/mixed race people that they were willing to make this huge sacrifice and pretend to be someone else? Or was this just a few opportunistic greedy girls trying to get ahead one way or another? Also did any men successfully try and do this? -- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I have the same question as Landon, how common was "passing"? It doesn't seem like something anyone would want to do because I feel like living a double life would be such a hassle. At the same time, though, it was amazing to read Clare's statement about how much easier white people had it. "You'd be surprised, 'Rene, how much easier that is with white people than with us." But her explanations why seemed kind of naive in my opinion. Saying that it was either because of how many more white people there were or because they were secure enough with themselves doesn't seem like a satisfying answer. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
For the first time in this class I saw a glimpse of what I would consider the modern woman. In Dorothy Bromley's writing she describes the 3rd generation feminists and how they didn't hate men, how they were concerned with being fashionable, and how they were more concerend with economic independence than with reform. Before this reading all the women we have studied or read about either seemed to submissive to resemble any females I consider to be contemporary, or they were far more radical and militant than the average woman in America today. -----Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I really enjoyed the readings for this week. I thought it was interesting to read all the letters from the mothers to the Children's Bureau. The horror that one mother went throught just because she had a doctor who was not fully qualified and her desire for some sort of governmental check on all doctors to prevent such a terrible experience from happening again. -- Christine Wuebker<br />
<br />
The other article I really like was "Feminist-New Style" by Dorothy Dunbar Bromley. It is the first time we see the formation of a modern woman. I also thought her description of the different generations of women was interesting. I was surprised she didn't talk about flappers. Today they are the most recognized women of the 1920s. I would have thought she would have at least mentioned them in her article. -- Christine Wuebker<br />
<br />
I agree with Christine about the letters to the Children's Bureau. They were all so interesting, the one about the mother who was worried about marking her baby was my favorite. Even though you hear of all the myths today that women worry about it was strange to hear this one. I have heard where craving certain food can help determine the sex of the baby but I had never heard that not eating a food that you are craving and then touching your face would mark the baby in someway. Where did these myths start? -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
The "Women of the Ku Klux Klan" document was really interesting. I was very surprised with the detailed constitution of the organization. Even though this was one way for women to become involved in politics it impressed me to the extent that the constitution went. It included the organization's objectives & purposes, membership and offenses & penalties. The type of offenses listed really surprised me, it never would have occurred to me to list "disrespect of virtuous womanhood." I would have thought that that offense would have been a given, but at the same time it is left up to individual interpretation of what would be considered disrespect. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
I am in the same boat as Christine and Kellye, I really enjoyed the reading from the Children's Bureau. The talk of malpractice and myths was rather interesting, just what women had to go through with pregnancy and to get a doctor who isn't all that great with child birth. Also the myths that were there were just amazing, like the one Kelley mentioned where a not eating the food your longing for will mark or harm the child in some way. How do these myths start anyways? and why do women believe them? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I knew that there was a Women of the KKK, but I did not have any type of understanding of how many members and their Kreed. I found just the in depth of the Kreed amazing. It covered membership, objections, offenses and punishments. I found it interesting that there was a donation of $10 required... unless your husband was in the original KKK. Does the WKKK or the KKK still exist today? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
http://www.kkk.bz/ Oh yes, they're still here. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
In "Anxious Mothers Write the Children's Bureau" I was shocked about how women would already have children but are still asking for pamphlets.I can understand they want the newest information, but Mrs. W.M. has three healthy boys, and is due to have another child. However she wants to know about caring for your baby. I found it interesting that these women were giving birth w/o a Dr. present, and then in the second letter, the Dr. is a quack. The second letter brought up a vaild point that these children are everyones futures. What I don't understand is then why are there not good Doctors and why women that live 8 miles away, why don't they try to take residence somewhere closer to them?-- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
Something that I found rather comical when reading the intro to the WKKK was that they made a point to say one perk of the WKKK was every member in good standing got a free white robe and helmet. The fact that, that is the perk that is listed is ridiculous, I can imagine a women being like "I don't know all of what we stand for but we get a free outfit." Also what I really liked was how this horrible organization was seen as, by the women involved, "a splendid opportunity for friendship and solidarity .... Just a celebration... a way of growing up." This just baffles me because these women are part of an horrible organization almost as an excuse to make friends and have fun and celebrate growing up. I know it was accepted during the time period but are these women that naive and ridiculous? -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
As much as I love being able to see a correlation between the 3rd Generation girls in "Feminist - New Style" and the modern American woman, it bothers me how unappreciative those girls seemed to be about all that had been accomplished, especially with the 2nd generation. True, feminist had a bit of a negative connotation because of how radical most of the suffragists were and it still has that "man-hating" connotation today, but what those women accomplished took a heck of a lot of work and energy. It just makes me wonder, are women today just as unappreciative of what other women had to suffer and fight for to give us the luxuries we have today? I certainly hope not. I do, however, like the last line, "If this be treason gentlemen, make the most of it." I did like this article a lot, and I like how Dorothe Dunbar Bromley emphasized how women should take control of their lives. But it just kind of bugged me how much she ragged on the 1st and 2nd generation women. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
I was shocked as well when I read about the WKKK. It just amazes me that more and more people were getting better educations but still people fell back on the "I am better than you" mentality. It amazes me that in their kreed they refer to having good morals and reputations and how patriotic they thought they were. I don't get how "White Supremecy" equals patriotism especially considering some of the things that the KKK would do. I know that my grandparents grew up in the 30's and they never supported these groups because my grandma always said violence against anyone was wrong but they had the same mentality towards different religions and blacks as these racial groups did. How did they reconcile the being a good Christian and believing in Jesus Christ like their Kreed says but then treat others the way they did?~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
<br />
I was also very interested in reading teh "Generational Conflicts" by Dorothy Bromley. I found myself agreeing with alot that she says. I think that the feminists of the 1970's had the same kind of reputation of being antagonizers of men or as being man haters like the feminist-new style of the 20's thought the older feminists were. I remember growing up in the 70's and being adamant that I did not want to be known as a feminist when I grew up! I still hate that term because of the negative image I have from the Femi-nazis of the 70's but I guess my beliefs are very much "feminist". How did the feminist-new style turn into the femi-nazis of the 70's? Is it just a normal "cycle" of generations and the old "history repeats itself" argument or did something specific happen to cause the feminist to revert to the more militant end of the spectrum again?~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
<br />
In Dorothy Bromley's essay she talks about the new modern women, and how they are an individual and independent. However she says, "And in this era of simplified housekeeping they see their oportunity.." (128) What does she mean by simplyfied housekeeping? Does she mean simplyfied because of new technology in cleaning appliances and products or something else? Also with this new oportunity of free time women are going to do something they enjoy, so what do they do in their new free time?--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
The WKKK article was very interesting because I had no idea that there was a KKK for women alone. I knew that the ones who had husbands in the KKK supported them, but that they actually had their own group, wow. Under the Constitution and Laws part of the article it says the "Order shall ever be military in character..." (136) How militaristic and ritualistic were they? Did they often commit violent act againt those they oppesed like the usual burning of a cross or throwing bricks through peoples windows?--Michelle M.</div>Michellehttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_7_Questions/Comments328--Week 7 Questions/Comments2008-02-26T01:12:19Z<p>Michelle: </p>
<hr />
<div>"Anxious Mothers write the Children’s Bureau" deals with the health problems related to women and infants. People concerned wrote to the Children’s Bureau of the Department of Labor, which was formed until 1912. Before this, and even after this, was there anything for people to turn to on more of a local level? In addition, the first letter points out that the doctor was not available while the woman was giving birth, and the last letter points out the deficiencies in the profession. Was it more common or more reliable to see a midwife during this time? <br />
--Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I think it is interesting to look at the women’s movement and how it evolved in different generations. Bromely begins by looking at the term “feminism” and how some people thought that this meant a young woman who had a job and who is no longer “old fashioned.” She looks at generational gaps between women in their twenties and women in their forties. If you were to make this breakdown today, how would women’s opinions on feminism differ? –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
With women having the ability to vote, I think it would have been interesting to track votes by gender and if a wife's vote was the same or opposite as her husband. Did females double the number of votes or was their a clear difference between what women found as important issues vs. the men? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
<br />
I was shocked to read about the KKK. I had no idea in 1925 there were between 3 and 4 million American members involved. Also to read there were 500,000 women in a a "Women of the KKK" scares me. What drew all these individuals into this organization? Why so many women in 1925 and fewer in the later years? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
<br />
Like Rose I found the article "Women of the Ku Klux Klan" interesting. While I was not that surprised on how many women were involved in it, especially seeing how much dislike the Southern states had towards blacks, and I remembered learning that Jews were becoming to be targets of the KKK I didn't remember that the Catholics were also targets. Although I didn't remember this, seeing how the majority, if not all of the members, were white protestants it does kind of make sense. Though what I found most interesting was the fact that section 2 of the Constitution of and laws of the WKKK stated that the group would be military in character, and I would have thought these women would want to avoid that categorization since it was not very lady-like.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
The Feminists--New Style of "Generational Conflicts" by Dorothy Dunbar Bromley seemed to be considerably naive. Was it really possible for a women to have a successful career during the 1920's and 1930's that could provide economic freedom? Was it as easy as these new feminists presented it to be?---Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
In "New Voters" by Carrie Chapman Catt, I found it notable that Catt thought of political change as only possible through political parties. This view differs from, what I guess is a more idealistic, view that the parties can be affected by grass roots movements. I guess her view of politics must have been shaped by her experiences fighting for women's suffrage. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I really like Carrie Chapman Catt's piece, "New Voters." She made an excellent point that now that women had the right to vote, they needed to do something with it. Since they were now seen on an "equal" platform with men when it came to casting votes, why not move yourself up higher in the political realm? That had been one of my questions actually, what were women going to fight for now that they had the right to vote? And was there something to fight for? Well, obviously, in Carrie Chapman Catt's opinion there was. It just makes me wonder if they would have been more successful had Catt been able to be a bigger part of this "new movement." She made the comment, "Younger and fresher women must do that work, and because I cannot advise and cannot follow, I only point to the fact that the battle is there..." and I just feel that with all she did for the suffrage movement, this next battle would have been fought better with her at the forefront. And, just for kicks, I liked the comment, "Women must not be content until they are as independent within the party as men are, which isn't saying much." She's so funny. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
I found the debate about an Equal Rights Amendment to be fairly interesting. Of the two debates, I, with my modern understanding of things, believe that the argument in favor of the Equal Rights Amendment was a way to achieve gender equality. Having to wait for equality and legislate for women separately seems to play into gender stereotypes instead of defusing them which should ultimately be the purpose of whatever course of action that should be undertaken. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I found "Generational Conflicts" extremely interesting because it seemed like many of the reasons that the women of the 1920s didn't want to be associated with the term 'feminist' are the same reasons that many people today don't want to be. These reasons include the desire to not be seen as man haters, the idea that they wouldn't live for only her husband or her job but rather would balance the two arenas, and had a desire to still wear feminine clothes which the older generation who called themselves feminists did not want to do.-Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
I also found the debate very interesting as well as a challenging topic to side one way on. In a perfect world I would side with Stevens and the National Women's Party in terms of equality for both sexes. Although at that point in history it is easy to see how many women wouldn't want to be held to those standards in the work place. I think that Hamilton's arguement was best made when she looked to Holland. Instead of "taking privilege away from the women" (126) the privileges were given to the men. The debate brings up a very important point: where is the line that separates women and men and how do you draw that line while maintaining equality? -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
In Nella Larsen's ''Passing'' was very upsetting to read about Clare's double life. It's hard to imagine growing up in a society that valued "pure blood" so strongly that you would deny your ancestry in order to be a part of a soceity that would shun you if they knew the truth. I thought it was an interesting situation to think "if I was in Irene's shoes in the 1920's, what would I do?" -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
"If you really want women's vote to count, make your way there."(p.122) This inspiring phrase from Carrie Chapman Catt's speech was the crux of the newly ratified 19th amendment. Now that women had the vote, how were they going to use it? She tells them to go out and get involved. It reminds me of all the campaigns to get out the vote that we have today. Catt understands that just having the power to vote is not enough; the real power lies in how it's used. I also found it interesting that she wants them to get involved in political parties in order to make the most impact. It almost seems like going backwards becaue now they're back to working within the male controlled sphere. It goes back to contradicting the narrow-minded male perception that women would all vote the same on issues. -Kendall Haring<br />
<br />
Was passing a common practice? It seems that passing would not only be infeasible but also extremely uncomfortable. I cannot imagine the pressure and strain of trying to live your life while having to lie to everyone around you and deserting your family. Do these sacrifices speak to the huge difference in standards of living between white and black Americans in this time period? Were conditions so bad for the black/mixed race people that they were willing to make this huge sacrifice and pretend to be someone else? Or was this just a few opportunistic greedy girls trying to get ahead one way or another? Also did any men successfully try and do this? -- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I have the same question as Landon, how common was "passing"? It doesn't seem like something anyone would want to do because I feel like living a double life would be such a hassle. At the same time, though, it was amazing to read Clare's statement about how much easier white people had it. "You'd be surprised, 'Rene, how much easier that is with white people than with us." But her explanations why seemed kind of naive in my opinion. Saying that it was either because of how many more white people there were or because they were secure enough with themselves doesn't seem like a satisfying answer. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
For the first time in this class I saw a glimpse of what I would consider the modern woman. In Dorothy Bromley's writing she describes the 3rd generation feminists and how they didn't hate men, how they were concerned with being fashionable, and how they were more concerend with economic independence than with reform. Before this reading all the women we have studied or read about either seemed to submissive to resemble any females I consider to be contemporary, or they were far more radical and militant than the average woman in America today. -----Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I really enjoyed the readings for this week. I thought it was interesting to read all the letters from the mothers to the Children's Bureau. The horror that one mother went throught just because she had a doctor who was not fully qualified and her desire for some sort of governmental check on all doctors to prevent such a terrible experience from happening again. -- Christine Wuebker<br />
<br />
The other article I really like was "Feminist-New Style" by Dorothy Dunbar Bromley. It is the first time we see the formation of a modern woman. I also thought her description of the different generations of women was interesting. I was surprised she didn't talk about flappers. Today they are the most recognized women of the 1920s. I would have thought she would have at least mentioned them in her article. -- Christine Wuebker<br />
<br />
I agree with Christine about the letters to the Children's Bureau. They were all so interesting, the one about the mother who was worried about marking her baby was my favorite. Even though you hear of all the myths today that women worry about it was strange to hear this one. I have heard where craving certain food can help determine the sex of the baby but I had never heard that not eating a food that you are craving and then touching your face would mark the baby in someway. Where did these myths start? -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
The "Women of the Ku Klux Klan" document was really interesting. I was very surprised with the detailed constitution of the organization. Even though this was one way for women to become involved in politics it impressed me to the extent that the constitution went. It included the organization's objectives & purposes, membership and offenses & penalties. The type of offenses listed really surprised me, it never would have occurred to me to list "disrespect of virtuous womanhood." I would have thought that that offense would have been a given, but at the same time it is left up to individual interpretation of what would be considered disrespect. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
I am in the same boat as Christine and Kellye, I really enjoyed the reading from the Children's Bureau. The talk of malpractice and myths was rather interesting, just what women had to go through with pregnancy and to get a doctor who isn't all that great with child birth. Also the myths that were there were just amazing, like the one Kelley mentioned where a not eating the food your longing for will mark or harm the child in some way. How do these myths start anyways? and why do women believe them? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I knew that there was a Women of the KKK, but I did not have any type of understanding of how many members and their Kreed. I found just the in depth of the Kreed amazing. It covered membership, objections, offenses and punishments. I found it interesting that there was a donation of $10 required... unless your husband was in the original KKK. Does the WKKK or the KKK still exist today? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
http://www.kkk.bz/ Oh yes, they're still here. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
In "Anxious Mothers Write the Children's Bureau" I was shocked about how women would already have children but are still asking for pamphlets.I can understand they want the newest information, but Mrs. W.M. has three healthy boys, and is due to have another child. However she wants to know about caring for your baby. I found it interesting that these women were giving birth w/o a Dr. present, and then in the second letter, the Dr. is a quack. The second letter brought up a vaild point that these children are everyones futures. What I don't understand is then why are there not good Doctors and why women that live 8 miles away, why don't they try to take residence somewhere closer to them?-- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
Something that I found rather comical when reading the intro to the WKKK was that they made a point to say one perk of the WKKK was every member in good standing got a free white robe and helmet. The fact that, that is the perk that is listed is ridiculous, I can imagine a women being like "I don't know all of what we stand for but we get a free outfit." Also what I really liked was how this horrible organization was seen as, by the women involved, "a splendid opportunity for friendship and solidarity .... Just a celebration... a way of growing up." This just baffles me because these women are part of an horrible organization almost as an excuse to make friends and have fun and celebrate growing up. I know it was accepted during the time period but are these women that naive and ridiculous? -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
As much as I love being able to see a correlation between the 3rd Generation girls in "Feminist - New Style" and the modern American woman, it bothers me how unappreciative those girls seemed to be about all that had been accomplished, especially with the 2nd generation. True, feminist had a bit of a negative connotation because of how radical most of the suffragists were and it still has that "man-hating" connotation today, but what those women accomplished took a heck of a lot of work and energy. It just makes me wonder, are women today just as unappreciative of what other women had to suffer and fight for to give us the luxuries we have today? I certainly hope not. I do, however, like the last line, "If this be treason gentlemen, make the most of it." I did like this article a lot, and I like how Dorothe Dunbar Bromley emphasized how women should take control of their lives. But it just kind of bugged me how much she ragged on the 1st and 2nd generation women. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
I was shocked as well when I read about the WKKK. It just amazes me that more and more people were getting better educations but still people fell back on the "I am better than you" mentality. It amazes me that in their kreed they refer to having good morals and reputations and how patriotic they thought they were. I don't get how "White Supremecy" equals patriotism especially considering some of the things that the KKK would do. I know that my grandparents grew up in the 30's and they never supported these groups because my grandma always said violence against anyone was wrong but they had the same mentality towards different religions and blacks as these racial groups did. How did they reconcile the being a good Christian and believing in Jesus Christ like their Kreed says but then treat others the way they did?~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
<br />
I was also very interested in reading teh "Generational Conflicts" by Dorothy Bromley. I found myself agreeing with alot that she says. I think that the feminists of the 1970's had the same kind of reputation of being antagonizers of men or as being man haters like the feminist-new style of the 20's thought the older feminists were. I remember growing up in the 70's and being adamant that I did not want to be known as a feminist when I grew up! I still hate that term because of the negative image I have from the Femi-nazis of the 70's but I guess my beliefs are very much "feminist". How did the feminist-new style turn into the femi-nazis of the 70's? Is it just a normal "cycle" of generations and the old "history repeats itself" argument or did something specific happen to cause the feminist to revert to the more militant end of the spectrum again?~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
<br />
In Dorothy Bromley's essay she talks about the new modern women, and how they are an individual and independent. However she says, "And in this era of simplified housekeeping they see their oportunity.." (128) What does she mean by simplyfied housekeeping? Does she mean simplyfied because of new technology in cleaning appliances and products or something else? Also with this new oportunity of free time women are going to do something they enjoy, so what do they do in their new free time?--Michelle M.</div>Michellehttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_7_Questions/Comments328--Week 7 Questions/Comments2008-02-26T01:05:50Z<p>Michelle: </p>
<hr />
<div>"Anxious Mothers write the Children’s Bureau" deals with the health problems related to women and infants. People concerned wrote to the Children’s Bureau of the Department of Labor, which was formed until 1912. Before this, and even after this, was there anything for people to turn to on more of a local level? In addition, the first letter points out that the doctor was not available while the woman was giving birth, and the last letter points out the deficiencies in the profession. Was it more common or more reliable to see a midwife during this time? <br />
--Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I think it is interesting to look at the women’s movement and how it evolved in different generations. Bromely begins by looking at the term “feminism” and how some people thought that this meant a young woman who had a job and who is no longer “old fashioned.” She looks at generational gaps between women in their twenties and women in their forties. If you were to make this breakdown today, how would women’s opinions on feminism differ? –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
With women having the ability to vote, I think it would have been interesting to track votes by gender and if a wife's vote was the same or opposite as her husband. Did females double the number of votes or was their a clear difference between what women found as important issues vs. the men? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
<br />
I was shocked to read about the KKK. I had no idea in 1925 there were between 3 and 4 million American members involved. Also to read there were 500,000 women in a a "Women of the KKK" scares me. What drew all these individuals into this organization? Why so many women in 1925 and fewer in the later years? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
<br />
Like Rose I found the article "Women of the Ku Klux Klan" interesting. While I was not that surprised on how many women were involved in it, especially seeing how much dislike the Southern states had towards blacks, and I remembered learning that Jews were becoming to be targets of the KKK I didn't remember that the Catholics were also targets. Although I didn't remember this, seeing how the majority, if not all of the members, were white protestants it does kind of make sense. Though what I found most interesting was the fact that section 2 of the Constitution of and laws of the WKKK stated that the group would be military in character, and I would have thought these women would want to avoid that categorization since it was not very lady-like.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
The Feminists--New Style of "Generational Conflicts" by Dorothy Dunbar Bromley seemed to be considerably naive. Was it really possible for a women to have a successful career during the 1920's and 1930's that could provide economic freedom? Was it as easy as these new feminists presented it to be?---Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
In "New Voters" by Carrie Chapman Catt, I found it notable that Catt thought of political change as only possible through political parties. This view differs from, what I guess is a more idealistic, view that the parties can be affected by grass roots movements. I guess her view of politics must have been shaped by her experiences fighting for women's suffrage. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I really like Carrie Chapman Catt's piece, "New Voters." She made an excellent point that now that women had the right to vote, they needed to do something with it. Since they were now seen on an "equal" platform with men when it came to casting votes, why not move yourself up higher in the political realm? That had been one of my questions actually, what were women going to fight for now that they had the right to vote? And was there something to fight for? Well, obviously, in Carrie Chapman Catt's opinion there was. It just makes me wonder if they would have been more successful had Catt been able to be a bigger part of this "new movement." She made the comment, "Younger and fresher women must do that work, and because I cannot advise and cannot follow, I only point to the fact that the battle is there..." and I just feel that with all she did for the suffrage movement, this next battle would have been fought better with her at the forefront. And, just for kicks, I liked the comment, "Women must not be content until they are as independent within the party as men are, which isn't saying much." She's so funny. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
I found the debate about an Equal Rights Amendment to be fairly interesting. Of the two debates, I, with my modern understanding of things, believe that the argument in favor of the Equal Rights Amendment was a way to achieve gender equality. Having to wait for equality and legislate for women separately seems to play into gender stereotypes instead of defusing them which should ultimately be the purpose of whatever course of action that should be undertaken. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I found "Generational Conflicts" extremely interesting because it seemed like many of the reasons that the women of the 1920s didn't want to be associated with the term 'feminist' are the same reasons that many people today don't want to be. These reasons include the desire to not be seen as man haters, the idea that they wouldn't live for only her husband or her job but rather would balance the two arenas, and had a desire to still wear feminine clothes which the older generation who called themselves feminists did not want to do.-Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
I also found the debate very interesting as well as a challenging topic to side one way on. In a perfect world I would side with Stevens and the National Women's Party in terms of equality for both sexes. Although at that point in history it is easy to see how many women wouldn't want to be held to those standards in the work place. I think that Hamilton's arguement was best made when she looked to Holland. Instead of "taking privilege away from the women" (126) the privileges were given to the men. The debate brings up a very important point: where is the line that separates women and men and how do you draw that line while maintaining equality? -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
In Nella Larsen's ''Passing'' was very upsetting to read about Clare's double life. It's hard to imagine growing up in a society that valued "pure blood" so strongly that you would deny your ancestry in order to be a part of a soceity that would shun you if they knew the truth. I thought it was an interesting situation to think "if I was in Irene's shoes in the 1920's, what would I do?" -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
"If you really want women's vote to count, make your way there."(p.122) This inspiring phrase from Carrie Chapman Catt's speech was the crux of the newly ratified 19th amendment. Now that women had the vote, how were they going to use it? She tells them to go out and get involved. It reminds me of all the campaigns to get out the vote that we have today. Catt understands that just having the power to vote is not enough; the real power lies in how it's used. I also found it interesting that she wants them to get involved in political parties in order to make the most impact. It almost seems like going backwards becaue now they're back to working within the male controlled sphere. It goes back to contradicting the narrow-minded male perception that women would all vote the same on issues. -Kendall Haring<br />
<br />
Was passing a common practice? It seems that passing would not only be infeasible but also extremely uncomfortable. I cannot imagine the pressure and strain of trying to live your life while having to lie to everyone around you and deserting your family. Do these sacrifices speak to the huge difference in standards of living between white and black Americans in this time period? Were conditions so bad for the black/mixed race people that they were willing to make this huge sacrifice and pretend to be someone else? Or was this just a few opportunistic greedy girls trying to get ahead one way or another? Also did any men successfully try and do this? -- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I have the same question as Landon, how common was "passing"? It doesn't seem like something anyone would want to do because I feel like living a double life would be such a hassle. At the same time, though, it was amazing to read Clare's statement about how much easier white people had it. "You'd be surprised, 'Rene, how much easier that is with white people than with us." But her explanations why seemed kind of naive in my opinion. Saying that it was either because of how many more white people there were or because they were secure enough with themselves doesn't seem like a satisfying answer. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
For the first time in this class I saw a glimpse of what I would consider the modern woman. In Dorothy Bromley's writing she describes the 3rd generation feminists and how they didn't hate men, how they were concerned with being fashionable, and how they were more concerend with economic independence than with reform. Before this reading all the women we have studied or read about either seemed to submissive to resemble any females I consider to be contemporary, or they were far more radical and militant than the average woman in America today. -----Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I really enjoyed the readings for this week. I thought it was interesting to read all the letters from the mothers to the Children's Bureau. The horror that one mother went throught just because she had a doctor who was not fully qualified and her desire for some sort of governmental check on all doctors to prevent such a terrible experience from happening again. -- Christine Wuebker<br />
<br />
The other article I really like was "Feminist-New Style" by Dorothy Dunbar Bromley. It is the first time we see the formation of a modern woman. I also thought her description of the different generations of women was interesting. I was surprised she didn't talk about flappers. Today they are the most recognized women of the 1920s. I would have thought she would have at least mentioned them in her article. -- Christine Wuebker<br />
<br />
I agree with Christine about the letters to the Children's Bureau. They were all so interesting, the one about the mother who was worried about marking her baby was my favorite. Even though you hear of all the myths today that women worry about it was strange to hear this one. I have heard where craving certain food can help determine the sex of the baby but I had never heard that not eating a food that you are craving and then touching your face would mark the baby in someway. Where did these myths start? -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
The "Women of the Ku Klux Klan" document was really interesting. I was very surprised with the detailed constitution of the organization. Even though this was one way for women to become involved in politics it impressed me to the extent that the constitution went. It included the organization's objectives & purposes, membership and offenses & penalties. The type of offenses listed really surprised me, it never would have occurred to me to list "disrespect of virtuous womanhood." I would have thought that that offense would have been a given, but at the same time it is left up to individual interpretation of what would be considered disrespect. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
I am in the same boat as Christine and Kellye, I really enjoyed the reading from the Children's Bureau. The talk of malpractice and myths was rather interesting, just what women had to go through with pregnancy and to get a doctor who isn't all that great with child birth. Also the myths that were there were just amazing, like the one Kelley mentioned where a not eating the food your longing for will mark or harm the child in some way. How do these myths start anyways? and why do women believe them? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I knew that there was a Women of the KKK, but I did not have any type of understanding of how many members and their Kreed. I found just the in depth of the Kreed amazing. It covered membership, objections, offenses and punishments. I found it interesting that there was a donation of $10 required... unless your husband was in the original KKK. Does the WKKK or the KKK still exist today? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
http://www.kkk.bz/ Oh yes, they're still here. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
In "Anxious Mothers Write the Children's Bureau" I was shocked about how women would already have children but are still asking for pamphlets.I can understand they want the newest information, but Mrs. W.M. has three healthy boys, and is due to have another child. However she wants to know about caring for your baby. I found it interesting that these women were giving birth w/o a Dr. present, and then in the second letter, the Dr. is a quack. The second letter brought up a vaild point that these children are everyones futures. What I don't understand is then why are there not good Doctors and why women that live 8 miles away, why don't they try to take residence somewhere closer to them?-- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
Something that I found rather comical when reading the intro to the WKKK was that they made a point to say one perk of the WKKK was every member in good standing got a free white robe and helmet. The fact that, that is the perk that is listed is ridiculous, I can imagine a women being like "I don't know all of what we stand for but we get a free outfit." Also what I really liked was how this horrible organization was seen as, by the women involved, "a splendid opportunity for friendship and solidarity .... Just a celebration... a way of growing up." This just baffles me because these women are part of an horrible organization almost as an excuse to make friends and have fun and celebrate growing up. I know it was accepted during the time period but are these women that naive and ridiculous? -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
As much as I love being able to see a correlation between the 3rd Generation girls in "Feminist - New Style" and the modern American woman, it bothers me how unappreciative those girls seemed to be about all that had been accomplished, especially with the 2nd generation. True, feminist had a bit of a negative connotation because of how radical most of the suffragists were and it still has that "man-hating" connotation today, but what those women accomplished took a heck of a lot of work and energy. It just makes me wonder, are women today just as unappreciative of what other women had to suffer and fight for to give us the luxuries we have today? I certainly hope not. I do, however, like the last line, "If this be treason gentlemen, make the most of it." I did like this article a lot, and I like how Dorothe Dunbar Bromley emphasized how women should take control of their lives. But it just kind of bugged me how much she ragged on the 1st and 2nd generation women. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
I was shocked as well when I read about the WKKK. It just amazes me that more and more people were getting better educations but still people fell back on the "I am better than you" mentality. It amazes me that in their kreed they refer to having good morals and reputations and how patriotic they thought they were. I don't get how "White Supremecy" equals patriotism especially considering some of the things that the KKK would do. I know that my grandparents grew up in the 30's and they never supported these groups because my grandma always said violence against anyone was wrong but they had the same mentality towards different religions and blacks as these racial groups did. How did they reconcile the being a good Christian and believing in Jesus Christ like their Kreed says but then treat others the way they did?~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
<br />
I was also very interested in reading teh "Generational Conflicts" by Dorothy Bromley. I found myself agreeing with alot that she says. I think that the feminists of the 1970's had the same kind of reputation of being antagonizers of men or as being man haters like the feminist-new style of the 20's thought the older feminists were. I remember growing up in the 70's and being adamant that I did not want to be known as a feminist when I grew up! I still hate that term because of the negative image I have from the Femi-nazis of the 70's but I guess my beliefs are very much "feminist". How did the feminist-new style turn into the femi-nazis of the 70's? Is it just a normal "cycle" of generations and the old "history repeats itself" argument or did something specific happen to cause the feminist to revert to the more militant end of the spectrum again?~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
<br />
hgjhgjkhlkjhkjh</div>Michellehttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_6_Questions/Comments328--Week 6 Questions/Comments2008-02-20T20:44:07Z<p>Michelle: </p>
<hr />
<div>I found Jane Addams's view that women needed to be involved in the political parties since organizations for public good founded by a charismatic individual usually died after their departure to be interesting. Her belief that political parties produced more long lasting and stable change through their unification of the states and the nation was what interested me about her view, especially given today's political climate. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I also found it interesting that there existed Negro women who belonged to the Democratic party since it was the party that had recently worked for their enslavement and did not really support woman's rights at the time. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I found Leonara O'Reilly's "A Labor Organizer Speaks Out for Suffrage" to be a very good argument, but I failed to see how it was different from all of the other arguments that Congress probably had already heard that talked about how women's suffrage was the right thing to do and failed to speak about how women's suffrage was in the Congressmen's best interests. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I enjoyed the personal writings by the various working women. All were so informative and individual tone helped to understand the kind of labor, their general treatment, and their personal feelings about the job: gratitude, vulnerability. All these jobs were considered women's work and all were poorly (payed even compared to cheap male labor), demeaning in some way, and offered either high health hazards or demanded long hours. I found Agnes Nestor particularly inspiring, that she worked from unskilled glove maker to union leader (being part of that small 2.2%) and lobbyist for women's work rights. ~Jackie R.<br />
<br />
The speech delivered by Abigail Scott Duniway (printed in Modern American Women), I thought was very interesting. She brings up a very good question, if women were sincere in their belief that men considered women’s opinions and kept their promises to women, then why would men not also feel safe in allowing women the right to vote? Her speech continues, to discuss how men and women were created equally as halves and without the consideration of both, there can never be a whole. –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
There were many arguments both for and against women’s suffrage. Many of these arguments are outlined, in a satirical manner, by Marie Jenny Howe in “An Anti-Suffrage Monologue.” Throughout the monologue, she compares two opposite and extreme arguments to point out how ridiculous an extreme belief can be. One of her arguments can almost be applied to Duniway’s argument. Howe states that, “If the women were enfranchised they would vote exactly as their husbands do and only double the existing vote. Do you like that argument? If not, take this one. If the Women were enfranchised they would vote against their own husbands, thus creating dissension, family quarrels, and divorce,” (102). If men and women truly are two halves of a whole, as Duniway suggests, then the first statement would most certainly be true. If the second statement is taken as true and the votes of men and women cancel each other out and create conflict, then wouldn’t the same be true if voting were left to only men as well? If conflicting votes led to quarrel and instability within a family, then wouldn’t conflicting votes among men result in quarrel and instability in society? Looking at both of these extremes as Howe does throughout the monologue, leads one to realize that a more moderate view would be more functional and practical. –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I found it intriguing in the article by Melanie Gustafon, that even though the progressive party did not accept African American men, there were still some African American men that supported the party. My guess is they saw the party as being 'progressive' and would be the best party to, hopefully, eventually carry their own political desires. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
It was a nice change of pace to read what a woman against suffrage had to say about suffrage. I found her points intriguing, but I also wondered why facts were not proof... facts are usually there to prove one point or another. The article about Alice Paul and the conditions under which the prisoners were kept were horrible! No fresh air, the sweeping of dust into the cells, and feeding them basically raw pork is just horrible. Did this happen at most prisons? Does it still happen? -- Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I found the"Partisan Women in the Progressive Era" by Melanie Gustafson very interesting. I didn't know that the idea of partisan vs. non-partisan was actually a gendered idea, nor had I thought about the idea that women's auxiliaries could have been seen as women's lack of dedication to the political arena (pg 250). However, one of the points she makes that stood out to me the most was the fact that women suffragists, specifically, Ida HUsted Harper, felt that women's involvement in partisan activities was actually damaging to the suffrage movement. My line of thinking would say that the involvement in the partisan groups would actually help the movement since it would show the dedication that women had to politics that supposedly the women's auxiliaries did not. -Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
<br />
In "Inez Haynes Irwin Recalls the Militance of Suffragists in the National Woman's Party, 1921" it is mentioned that after the Senate and President remained silent on the issue of women's suffrage they announced their intention to hold a (peaceful) demonstration yet, when President Wilson heard this, he immediately said he would accept and talk to a delegation of women. I was wondering if he decided to talk to the women because he was afraid that they would meet together and gain support instead of quieting down if the bill didn't pass? And if this was his hope, how could he have expected the women who wanted the vote so badly to simply back down? In other words, did he talk with them with the hope of preventing the very demonstration that they had despite (or maybe because) of this meeting?- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
Yet again I found the readings in Modern American Women absolutely fascinating! I enjoyed reading how many different ways the suffrage movement was promoted and with what ideas, as well with ideas that the anti-suffragists would use (although that came through a satire). Perhaps one of my favorites of these readings was the first one, "A Western Suffragist Talks to her Eastern Sisters" by Abigail Scott Duniway. It said in the introduction that the East coast suffragists saw her as more radical than they wished to be but I don't understand what was so radical about the ideas expressed in the piece we read (this may simply be due to the time period difference). I would have thought that her arguments that the movement was not a war between the genders but a movement for interdependence and that women did not want to remove men from their rights or limit them, but simply wanted to gain the ability to chose their own rights would have been comforting to those men who felt that the movement was a threat to their power. The "Anti-Suffrage Monologue" as also very interesting, at the same time irritating because I am aware that there were women who did actually hold these beliefs. However I do wonder if they would have phrased them in this way or it the arguments were exaggerated in this piece due to its satirical nature. Lastly, I also found the rules contained in "Front Door Lobbying' for Suffrage' by Maud Wood Park to be extremely interesting because it demonstrates the desire of women to gain suffrage while still being viewed as lady-like and proper. I found every single one of these readings interesting but it was those three that stood out to me the most.-Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
I found Marie Jenny Howe's An Anti-Suffrage Monologue very interesting. Her 5th anti-suffrage couplet I found to be very funny and some what accurate. She stated "women can not band together. They are incapable of organization. No two women can even be friends. Women are cats." The fact that I am a girl I really see this. Throughout our lives we deal with our friends stabbing us in the back and someone gossiping about the other. Especially as I have gotten older women have become a lot more brutal. I do find this to be an issue in social settings and political settings. However since there was and is still a belief, why do women accomplish so much when its more then one person fighting for the same goal? Is it because we are still male dominated and we have them to regulate women's organizations? -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
I'm not sure if I agree with Amanda's sentiment of "funny" when referring to Howe's "An Anti-Suffrage Monologue." In one passage she states, "Enfranchisement is what makes man man. Disfranchisement is what makes woman woman. If women were enfranchised every man would be just like every woman and every woman would be just like every man. There would be no difference between them. and don't you think this would rob life of just a little of its poetry and romance?" What romance novel was this lady reading! She also goes on to characterize the women that participate in the suffrage movement by saying, "Observe their inability, their mental disability, their spiritual instability and general debility!" Are these the characteristics of only the women seeking their rights or of all women? It appears that this women can make a claim to the characteristics depicted in Amanda's post because she has obviously exhibited this behavior in her writing. I think the "Antis" were afraid of change;I would guess they were quite comfortable within the sanctuary of their homes, and the thought of operating outside the domestic sphere was intimidating.--LisaM <br />
<br />
In the Abigail Scott Duniway piece she made a point that I believe is dead on. "She said A home w/o a man in it is only half a home. A government w/o a women is only half a government. A man w/o a women is only one-half of a pair... a women w/o a man is like the other half..." What I don't understand is how men of this time period don't understand that if they did not have women in the home there wouldn't be a home. Everything she does for him wouldn't get done, and god forbid he does anything for himself when he gets home. Relating this document to Howe, she says women are there to wash the dishes and if the mistress of the house doesn't do it she hires someone. A man washing the dishes would be "blasphemy." Even before the 1900s I find it funny that men don't realize women do dictate their lives, women were influencing their husbands political activity. Women have a way of manipulating men to think they had the brilliant idea when really it was the women's decision all along. So in reality if women just stopped standing by their men then a large a majority of the American male population would probably be helpless. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
I agree with you to an extent, Amanda. You're right when you say that women influenced their husbands' political activity, but if you think about the reasons men were afraid to let women vote, one of them dealt with the fear that women would vote exactly like their husbands and without their own agenda. In reality, these women wanted the vote so that they could help themselves. I don't think most of them wanted to vote the same way as the men in their lives did. But your right; women did have (and still do) have a major impact on the way men acted politically. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
I agree with Amanda, and I was really struck by the comment "A home without a man in it is only half a home. A government without a woman is only half a government..." But I think the fact that men didn't really understand demonstrates the double standard at that time. It seems that they thought that yes, a home without a man is only half a home, but they only thought that women should stay in their "domestic sphere" and should not enter the public sphere. The double standard is that men have to be in the home or it would only be half of a home, but women's place is only in the home. In this same article, I was also struck by her comments on the "evolution" of homemaking and her discussion of how more was being done in factories. She also discusses how more girls will work more in the factories through this process of evolution. I thought that these comments were a little brave, because isn't that what men were fearing? That women would leave the home and enter the workforce? But then, she reconciles it a little by saying that the younger girls will go to work so that the mothers can stay home... --Katie Nelson<br />
<br />
I agree with amanda also to an extend on Duniway's qoute. And to an extent I mean I agree with the qoute based on the time in which it was said, because you have to remember that specific time period. It is true for that time period that a house with out a man was only half a home, and half a government and so on. The home is where the women were, but financially the man for the most part was the supporter, or head of house hold. So yes with out a women being in the house a man would not know what to do. However in today's world I think it is interesting that society has evolved to where now either sex can be independent, and not really needing to depend on the other sex for whatever. Therefore her qoute had a good meaning at the time.<br />
--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
In MP the Inez Haynes piece I found to be extremely inspiring. These women speak to two senators and they honestly tell these women your bill is not coming up today. Then you have Wilson saying I am in sympathy with you, a nice little white lie and the suffragists saying ha I will believe it when I see it. I really like this piece because they weren't naive about what was really going on. But what really gets me is that these two senators did not lie to the women they were honestly like no not happening, then you have the President pretty much lying. I find that comical because it really shows who Wilson really is. But my question is why would he lie to these women? I don't understand how he could not think this was not an important issue and that when its time for re-election his presidency is in their hands. So my question is why would he lie to these women? -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
After reading Florence Luscomb's piece, "Open-Air Meetings: A New Suffrage Tactic," I couldn't help but be impressed by the lengths these suffragettes went to in order to have their voices heard. The numbers she gave at the end, "We have spoken to 24,900 people ... we gave held 97 meetings ... and have obtained over 2000 signatures" is absolutely incredible. When studying the Suffrage movement, you never think of the extremes that some women went to and Luscomb and her colleague surely went above and beyond to get their opinions all over Massachusetts. I also liked her comment about taking the roof away from a female speaker and she immediately becomes a raving lunatic. If you think about it, the perception was true, especially since it went against the good old Sphere of Domesticity. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
Like Kelly I found "Open-Air Meetings: A New Suffrage Tactic," of great interest. Women suffrage groups obviously realized that to be heard they required a larger voice from the population of women. It is easy for government officials to dismiss a handful of suffrage organizers as fanatical, but a large group of women is a force to be reckoned with. The tactic of conducting open-air meetings allowed the suffrage representatives access to a segment of the women's population that they were not likely to see in any organization meeting.--LisaM <br />
<br />
I really liked Maud Wood Park's "'Front Door Lobbying' For Suffrage." I thought the list of rules that were drafted were a great representation of how women tried to still be seen as moral and proper but still be able to voice their opinions for their cause. My favorite line, however, was the last section where Maud Wood Park discusses her favorite report which said "He said, 'I'm with you; I'm for it, I'm going to vote for it. Now don't bother me,' all in one breath." There must have been a large number of these amusing reports because I'm sure the men they were lobbying to enjoyed their visits. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
Marie Howe's essay on anti-suffrage was unlike anything I had ever read before. Her beleives or arguments were unbeleivable. She was totally unsupportive of the female gender, and shot down women, and really herself. She essentially calls women dumb, when she says, "women cannot understand politics." Well, why can't they, thats what education is for(102). Also she does not care about fact, instead she wants proof(103). Well aren't facts the samething as proof? Her whole essay makes me wonder what kind of childhood she had, because it was kind of angering to read how she thought women were just suppose to look up to their husbands and remain the little submissive women always, and have no role to play other than the house wife. Her own arguments have no proof and really just sound dumb.<br />
--Michelle Mardeusz</div>Michellehttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_5_Questions/Comments328--Week 5 Questions/Comments2008-02-13T20:55:22Z<p>Michelle: </p>
<hr />
<div>In Harriet Brunkhurst's article I found it sad to read how the mother of working women expected so much more of their working daughters than of their working sons. Not only was being looked down upon for being in the same level as men bad enoough, but they were expected to cook, clean and do other odd end things around the house after a tiresome day at work, while the sons did nothing but relax after a tiresome day at work. The part that most hit me was Cecil's story. Her mother has her work and wants to hear nothing about how Cecil is tired from work yet she has the nerver to say "John is so tired when he returns from work" about her husband!!! -Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
I also found it interesting to read Harriet Brunkhurst’s article in Major Problems in American Women’s History. It was sad that the women were not as respected as men for holding full time business jobs. However, I think it was largely to do with the context of the time. Mothers couldn’t empathize with their daughters because they expected them to play the same role in the household that they had once held. They knew that their daughters were the main providers, but the idea of this was out of line with the traditional norms and expectations of society at the time. This conflict created a double standard for the working girls, conforming to both the expectations one would hold for the head of the house as well as the expectations for the woman of the house, with fewer of the benefits of each. --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I find it kind of interesting how the political events taking place in China had a big effect on the way Chinese people in Ameica lived. I admire how the women in Chinese in America helped the Revoultionary cause back in the homeland and helped liberize the women both here in America and in China by allowing them to unbind their feet, go out in public and learn to read and be educated and become independent from men.- Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
It is interesting to compare Modern American Women: “The Harsh Conditions of Domestic Service” with how Fannie Williams describes the “Problem of Employment for Negro Women in Major Problems. Both of these sources describe working conditions for African American women. The first source discusses the role of the “nurse” in the household. The nurse however is responsible for much more than caring for the health of children and family, she is asked to carry out household tasks as well. It is almost as if slavery is continued by the need and difficulty of African American women to find work. The second source points out specifically that, African American women are more commonly employed to domestic service. She seems to take a different spin out however by suggesting that if you can’t be employed to a more honorable position, then make the position you can work more honorable. The question then becomes, what makes a position honorable? And how can you elevate a position if you have no control over the pay, benefits, or job description? --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
Kelly I also agree with you Nellie Bly was an incredible woman, however I find it amazing that she traveled all the way around the world and the most interesting passage this book could print was the one about her packing her carry on bag. I would have liked to hear more about her actual travels. - Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I found the Linda Gordon's essay pretty interesting. Her comparisons of black women's and white women's welfare activist goals were enlightening. It makes since that black women would be so much more passionate for better education, because for middle class white women it was often a given. Black women activists, however, sought to improve the welfare of their entire community, starting with their children, and not just focus on the issues of women. Also, I don't know if this made anyone else laugh but on page 215 some records are quoted on money raised through charity work: things like Bazaars, bake sales, baby contest...BABY CONTESTS? That just sounds ridiculous! What does that even entail, besides a bunch of self-indulgent parents acting like 19th century stage moms.--Jackie Reed<br />
<br />
I was amazed by the large role that the YWCA played in the liberation of Chinese women. From what I read, I think that they were more liberated than white women. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Like Justin I was surprised how the YWCA played such an important role. These women were isolated and this organization pulled them from their closets. It is amazing how customs shaped the Chinese woman's life experience. In "Unbound Feet" it states, "it was considered immodest to be seen too many times during the year."(263) Chinese women were made invisible by their culture. The idea of seeing a friend only on a special occasion, which was not due to distance, or the need to travel in a closed coach for short distances is suffocating. The YWCA recognized this and offered an opportunity that allowed women of similar backgrounds to meet and receive assistance outside their homes, but the most important contribution the YWCA gave these women was power. The power to meet, to decide and to change their lives in a way that they could now participate in it.--LisaM<br />
<br />
In Harriet Brunkhurst's article entitled "Business Girls," she identifies how a mother and daughter struggle in their relationship. Despite the daughter's role as the breadwinner, the mother, who is a homemaker, inflicts her judgment of her daughter's behavior within the confines of the home. The mother "would yield without question to husband or son occupying the same position, debates Rose's every movement simply because she is a girl."(266) We read about suppression of race and gender, but the suppression from within the structure of a girl's life can dictate a life of inadequacy. Our socialization and placement in the world is influenced by school, government, friends and most importantly family. The family instills values and beliefs and is the most enduring agent in the life of a child. If this type of suppression exists within the family, what can be expected of a child as an adult?--LisaM <br />
<br />
I think Lisa makes a good point about what can be expected of a child as an adult. I know my mother struggles with having her mom live with her right now. My grandma was raised that women stay home, do housework, raise children, and have a 'man' provide for them. Every day mom comes home tired and wore out (its been stressful at work lately) and my grandmother gets on her case about laundry, dishes, vacuming, and the like the moment she walks in, but says nothing to my father who helps my mom out with housework all the time. She fights with mom but when dad says something she shuts up and leaves mom alone. Its almost like I watch and live in this time setting because she also does it to me when I'm visiting my parents --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
How was sexual harassment handled during the early 20th century? I mean there are accounts of needing witnesses and having detectives, but it all seems a bit informal. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Like Justin, I am curious how sexual harassment was handled. It seemed that many males got away with sexual harassing females because the females did not want to lose their job. Did this occur often? Did many of the harassers get dealt with? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I found it interesting to read in "The Burdens of Rural Woman's Lives" that the husband stayed home during the Civil War after being drafted by paying $300. It seemed to be a parallel to more recent wars like the Vietnam War. --Justin Mattos<br />
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I found it intriguiing while reading Judy Yung's essay in Unequal Sisters that the protestant church was the first to encourage chinese women and that the Chinese women's involvement with church activities helped to expand their gender roles. I knew foot binding has ended, but its always nice to read about something that ended that I felt was cruel. I also found it interesting that to support the revolution, women in China did various activities such as enlisting in the army and engaging in dangerous uncover work. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
"Unbound Feet" doesn't go in depth on the foot binding issue. Based upon what I have read the process of foot binding was painful and and caused physical problems later in life, but what struck me was that there was a stigma attached to it. Foot binding made a woman more desirable, which makes them marriage worthy. I read one account where a potential mother-in-law checked the feet of the potential bride. If she had not been foot bound, the marriage was not approved by the family. Mothers performed this painful procedure, which began around the age of 4, on their daughters. Can you imagine putting a child in pain to conform to the norms within the culture.--LisaM<br />
<br />
The article I really took interest in was ''Buffalobird Woman's Story''. I know that in Native American societies women were the oweners of the land they were in charge of agricultural practices. This had been going on for hundreds and hundreds of years, and the fact that the government comes in a just changes everything really bothers me. They give them all these crops to plant when they don't even eat them and a lot of the crops are left in the ground. In reality the nation was just wasting their money providing seeds and showing them new planting techniques. I find it funny that in the end the women states that her old ways are more efficient then the new ways. She even proves this by winning a prize for her corn because she grew it the way she knew. What I am so confused about is why the government had to control how they grew their crops? Why waste time even worrying about what they are growing and how? Is it really that important of an issue? -- Amanda Taub<br />
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''Rose Cohen Describes Her First Job in New York City, 1892''really upset me. Number one the fact that this factory employer intentionally took advantage of the fact that she was young she was taken care of. It also really bothered me when her father pointed out to her that she was being employed weekly so she couldn't get paid more. I don't understand why the father would ever be fine with something like that. She is working just as hard as him to make money so the rest of the family could come to New York. The part that upset me the most is when she talked about how on her walks home she would pretend that she was coming home to her family and a warm meal. The last line" I used to keep this up until I turned the key in the door and opened it and stood facing the dark, cold, silent room." which makes me question, why even bother going through all this? Wouldn't it be better for the family to be together? Even if things were bad at least they would have each other. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
The readings in MP and MAW both discuss how difficult the lives of working women were, for every type of women. The immagrants were over worked and underpaid as well as black women, but they had to fight even harder to find a job, and then there were the white women who worked in department stores who ended up selling themselves to make ends meet. What was interesting about the department store essay was how none of the women refered to what they did after hours as prostiting. I assume this is because they were possibly ashamed of what they were doing and trying to make it sound like something its not. It was more than just going out to the theatre or dinner. Also surprisingly enough these girls were very young as well as the men they were intertaining seemed to be married most of the time. This was easy money for them which seemed to be why it was so appealing.<br />
--Michelle Mardeusz<br />
<br />
In Judy Yung's essay she says that black and Chinese women modeled their clubs after the white womens, but they formed these clubs because they were not allowed in the white womens, so why model it after them because after all each had different motives? This also brings me to another question which I'm not sure even deals with this just yet during this time, but the question of segregation. Everything was segregated into black and white like schools, theatres, and restrooms, so where does that leave people like the Chinese?<br />
--Michelle Mardeusz</div>Michellehttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_5_Questions/Comments328--Week 5 Questions/Comments2008-02-13T20:39:14Z<p>Michelle: </p>
<hr />
<div>In Harriet Brunkhurst's article I found it sad to read how the mother of working women expected so much more of their working daughters than of their working sons. Not only was being looked down upon for being in the same level as men bad enoough, but they were expected to cook, clean and do other odd end things around the house after a tiresome day at work, while the sons did nothing but relax after a tiresome day at work. The part that most hit me was Cecil's story. Her mother has her work and wants to hear nothing about how Cecil is tired from work yet she has the nerver to say "John is so tired when he returns from work" about her husband!!! -Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
I also found it interesting to read Harriet Brunkhurst’s article in Major Problems in American Women’s History. It was sad that the women were not as respected as men for holding full time business jobs. However, I think it was largely to do with the context of the time. Mothers couldn’t empathize with their daughters because they expected them to play the same role in the household that they had once held. They knew that their daughters were the main providers, but the idea of this was out of line with the traditional norms and expectations of society at the time. This conflict created a double standard for the working girls, conforming to both the expectations one would hold for the head of the house as well as the expectations for the woman of the house, with fewer of the benefits of each. --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I find it kind of interesting how the political events taking place in China had a big effect on the way Chinese people in Ameica lived. I admire how the women in Chinese in America helped the Revoultionary cause back in the homeland and helped liberize the women both here in America and in China by allowing them to unbind their feet, go out in public and learn to read and be educated and become independent from men.- Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
It is interesting to compare Modern American Women: “The Harsh Conditions of Domestic Service” with how Fannie Williams describes the “Problem of Employment for Negro Women in Major Problems. Both of these sources describe working conditions for African American women. The first source discusses the role of the “nurse” in the household. The nurse however is responsible for much more than caring for the health of children and family, she is asked to carry out household tasks as well. It is almost as if slavery is continued by the need and difficulty of African American women to find work. The second source points out specifically that, African American women are more commonly employed to domestic service. She seems to take a different spin out however by suggesting that if you can’t be employed to a more honorable position, then make the position you can work more honorable. The question then becomes, what makes a position honorable? And how can you elevate a position if you have no control over the pay, benefits, or job description? --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
Kelly I also agree with you Nellie Bly was an incredible woman, however I find it amazing that she traveled all the way around the world and the most interesting passage this book could print was the one about her packing her carry on bag. I would have liked to hear more about her actual travels. - Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I found the Linda Gordon's essay pretty interesting. Her comparisons of black women's and white women's welfare activist goals were enlightening. It makes since that black women would be so much more passionate for better education, because for middle class white women it was often a given. Black women activists, however, sought to improve the welfare of their entire community, starting with their children, and not just focus on the issues of women. Also, I don't know if this made anyone else laugh but on page 215 some records are quoted on money raised through charity work: things like Bazaars, bake sales, baby contest...BABY CONTESTS? That just sounds ridiculous! What does that even entail, besides a bunch of self-indulgent parents acting like 19th century stage moms.--Jackie Reed<br />
<br />
I was amazed by the large role that the YWCA played in the liberation of Chinese women. From what I read, I think that they were more liberated than white women. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Like Justin I was surprised how the YWCA played such an important role. These women were isolated and this organization pulled them from their closets. It is amazing how customs shaped the Chinese woman's life experience. In "Unbound Feet" it states, "it was considered immodest to be seen too many times during the year."(263) Chinese women were made invisible by their culture. The idea of seeing a friend only on a special occasion, which was not due to distance, or the need to travel in a closed coach for short distances is suffocating. The YWCA recognized this and offered an opportunity that allowed women of similar backgrounds to meet and receive assistance outside their homes, but the most important contribution the YWCA gave these women was power. The power to meet, to decide and to change their lives in a way that they could now participate in it.--LisaM<br />
<br />
In Harriet Brunkhurst's article entitled "Business Girls," she identifies how a mother and daughter struggle in their relationship. Despite the daughter's role as the breadwinner, the mother, who is a homemaker, inflicts her judgment of her daughter's behavior within the confines of the home. The mother "would yield without question to husband or son occupying the same position, debates Rose's every movement simply because she is a girl."(266) We read about suppression of race and gender, but the suppression from within the structure of a girl's life can dictate a life of inadequacy. Our socialization and placement in the world is influenced by school, government, friends and most importantly family. The family instills values and beliefs and is the most enduring agent in the life of a child. If this type of suppression exists within the family, what can be expected of a child as an adult?--LisaM <br />
<br />
I think Lisa makes a good point about what can be expected of a child as an adult. I know my mother struggles with having her mom live with her right now. My grandma was raised that women stay home, do housework, raise children, and have a 'man' provide for them. Every day mom comes home tired and wore out (its been stressful at work lately) and my grandmother gets on her case about laundry, dishes, vacuming, and the like the moment she walks in, but says nothing to my father who helps my mom out with housework all the time. She fights with mom but when dad says something she shuts up and leaves mom alone. Its almost like I watch and live in this time setting because she also does it to me when I'm visiting my parents --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
How was sexual harassment handled during the early 20th century? I mean there are accounts of needing witnesses and having detectives, but it all seems a bit informal. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Like Justin, I am curious how sexual harassment was handled. It seemed that many males got away with sexual harassing females because the females did not want to lose their job. Did this occur often? Did many of the harassers get dealt with? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I found it interesting to read in "The Burdens of Rural Woman's Lives" that the husband stayed home during the Civil War after being drafted by paying $300. It seemed to be a parallel to more recent wars like the Vietnam War. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I found it intriguiing while reading Judy Yung's essay in Unequal Sisters that the protestant church was the first to encourage chinese women and that the Chinese women's involvement with church activities helped to expand their gender roles. I knew foot binding has ended, but its always nice to read about something that ended that I felt was cruel. I also found it interesting that to support the revolution, women in China did various activities such as enlisting in the army and engaging in dangerous uncover work. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
"Unbound Feet" doesn't go in depth on the foot binding issue. Based upon what I have read the process of foot binding was painful and and caused physical problems later in life, but what struck me was that there was a stigma attached to it. Foot binding made a woman more desirable, which makes them marriage worthy. I read one account where a potential mother-in-law checked the feet of the potential bride. If she had not been foot bound, the marriage was not approved by the family. Mothers performed this painful procedure, which began around the age of 4, on their daughters. Can you imagine putting a child in pain to conform to the norms within the culture.--LisaM<br />
<br />
The article I really took interest in was ''Buffalobird Woman's Story''. I know that in Native American societies women were the oweners of the land they were in charge of agricultural practices. This had been going on for hundreds and hundreds of years, and the fact that the government comes in a just changes everything really bothers me. They give them all these crops to plant when they don't even eat them and a lot of the crops are left in the ground. In reality the nation was just wasting their money providing seeds and showing them new planting techniques. I find it funny that in the end the women states that her old ways are more efficient then the new ways. She even proves this by winning a prize for her corn because she grew it the way she knew. What I am so confused about is why the government had to control how they grew their crops? Why waste time even worrying about what they are growing and how? Is it really that important of an issue? -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
''Rose Cohen Describes Her First Job in New York City, 1892''really upset me. Number one the fact that this factory employer intentionally took advantage of the fact that she was young she was taken care of. It also really bothered me when her father pointed out to her that she was being employed weekly so she couldn't get paid more. I don't understand why the father would ever be fine with something like that. She is working just as hard as him to make money so the rest of the family could come to New York. The part that upset me the most is when she talked about how on her walks home she would pretend that she was coming home to her family and a warm meal. The last line" I used to keep this up until I turned the key in the door and opened it and stood facing the dark, cold, silent room." which makes me question, why even bother going through all this? Wouldn't it be better for the family to be together? Even if things were bad at least they would have each other. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
The readings in MP and MAW both discuss how difficult the lives of working women were, for every type of women. The immagrants were over worked and underpaid as well as black women, but they had to fight even harder to find a job, and then there were the white women who worked in department stores who ended up selling themselves to make ends meet. What was interesting about the department store essay was how none of the women refered to what they did after hours as prostiting. I assume this is because they were possibly ashamed of what they were doing and trying to make it sound like something its not. It was more than just going out to the theatre or dinner. Also surprisingly enough these girls were very young as well as the men they were intertaining seemed to be married most of the time. This was easy money for them which seemed to be why it was so appealing.<br />
--Michelle Mardeusz</div>Michellehttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_4_Questions/Comments328--Week 4 Questions/Comments2008-02-07T00:59:14Z<p>Michelle: </p>
<hr />
<div>While reading the primary source documents of the ''Modern American Women'' I found it a bit disconcerting that the women were so similar to the women of today. It is kind of a shame that history repeats itself so fully. I suppose it is evidence that change is gradual and more of an evolution. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Although it was an interesting study, Linda Gordon's study "Black and White Visions of Welfare: Women's Welfare Activism, 1890-1945" came very close to simply listing the differences between the two races of activists. Her conclusions did not seem to have a lot of depth. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I have to agree with Justin Mattos on his comment about Linda Gordon's essay. I too felt that that she really just listed the differences and similarities without any real conclusion. However, I do believe to have a better sense of what was happening, it is good to know that just because welfare groups existed, they didn't all go after the same things. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I also observed in the primary source documents of ''Modern American Women'' that the stereotypes of women have only changed slightly today. Women are still thought to be more fragile than men, and there is still a need to protect them from harm. It has only been within the last decade that the idea of a working women has gained mainstream acceptance. I wonder if this observation stems from the fact that the primary source documents that I read were from the perspective of educated women. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Chapter 14 of Unequal Sisters deals with the differences in welfare activism between African American and white women. Gordon points out that white women had more of an ability to work politically and seek donations from those who would be more able to help (i.e. congressional representatives or other political figures) while the African American women focused their activities around the community and church. She continues, to point out that white women activists focused more on charity and relief while black women sought to provide for more universal needs such as education and health. If there were poor or unfortunate people in both groups (black and white), why is it that white women activists focused on particular people while black women activists focused on reform that is more general? Did societal norms during this time make it more inappropriate to provide individual charity to black women? --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I found it interesting to read “Speaking out Against Lynching” by Ida B. Wells. She discusses the harsh punishments that African Americans were subjected to due to the stereotypes that white men and women held. On p age 15 she states, “With the Southern white man, any misalliance existing between a white woman and a colored man is a sufficient foundation for the charge of rape. The southern white man says that it is impossible for a voluntary alliance to exist between a white woman and a colored man, and therefore, the fact of an alliance is a proof of force.” Given this, would it also be considered rape if it were a black woman and a white man? Moreover, who would be at fault, would it be the man forcing himself onto the woman, or the woman because she is black? --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I also thought the reading by Wells was interesting. She only discusses the accusations that black men were raping white women. She never mentions black women being raped. Was it just something that they didn't talk about or something that they just took as a fact of life during those times? I thought it interesting that discussing how black men were falsely accused of rape and lynched even when it was well known at the time that it was a concentual relationship, but then went on to say that even when the white man left for war he left the white women to be protected by the black men. So why all of a sudden is the lynching of black men on the rise? Was it because now they were free and more like competition to the whites than they had been before?~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
<br />
In response to Mary Beth, I do think that to some extent the lynching of black was due to competition, but also due to fear. Before the African Americans were free, white men had never considered them to be a threat. When they left home they trusted that they would return with their home and family in the same state. It never crossed their minds that it would be possible for their family to be in danger because there had never been any reason to mistrust. Wells states on page 15 that "the world has accepted the story that the Negro is a monster which the Southern white man has painted him." With this image that is created, when the African Americans are free, the white men thus see it as the release of "a monster" and they no longer feel safe and trustworthy as they did before, when "the monster" was contained. --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
In response to Jessica's question, I think that white women were able to focus more on specific groups, because unlike black women, white women just had to focus on issues of sexual inequality whereas black women had the issues of sexual AND racial inequality going against them, as well as establishing themselves in a newly free world. Chapter 14 of Unequal Sister does highlight that the two major focus point for black women groups was education and health care. These were issues that obviously had to be taken care of after slavery because the whites weren't going to provide it fully for them (yes, a lot of groups DID help) but they knew they had to rely on themselves(as the article shows) to fully develop and not remain stagnant and looked down upon by the white community.- Emely Amaya.<br />
<br />
I also found in interesting in Gordon's piece on Welfare that she notes one specific difference. She states that the white groups that were looking for reform were looking at people "other" than themselves. They saw themselves as helping people less fortunate than themselves but still with a "moral" aspect between who was the "worthy and the unworthy poor" (pg 225). In contrast the black groups focused on middle class and poor blacks. The black groups also focused more on education and health instead of charitys like the whites. ~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
<br />
After reading ''Modern American Women'' I do agree with my classmates on how the perception of women has not changed drastically. It is now socially acceptable for a women to go off into the business world and make a name for herself. Even jobs such a teacher and a nurse that were considered women's work are still dominated today by women. Since I am an education major I go into a lot of elementary schools and the staff is female dominated. I think it is wrong that today where anyone can be anything, people still stereotype jobs and classify things as mens work or females work. This eve goes beyond the adults of the nation. We start these stereotypes early in children's lives. I have always remembered when I was younger and would go to Mc Donalds they would ask "would you like a girl toy or a boy toy?" Sometimes yeah I wanted the princess toy but other times I also wanted the hot wheels car. It is so disturbing to know that we are still dealing with this issue. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
After reading the article on Women's welfare activism,I too felt that she really just listed the differences and similarities without any real conclusion.However on the second page of the article, it talks about the differences of how white and black women were raising money. It says oh of course women raise money but they were also so busy attending White House conferences and correspondence with Supreme Court Justices and the black women it just states they organized bake sales, rummage sales and church dinners. I guess after reading this my biggest pet peeve is that yes white women did have more power in society. However, its not like there were no black women doing the same things. I just don't like how these women are talked down, for what they had their time was just as well spent as a white women. This really just made me feel that white women were more interested in their social lives or making them selves look better and black women worked as a team, they worked for the well being of everyone. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
While reading Chapter 14, I began to think about the possibly that the difference between the perspective of white women and black women on the poor that they helped was a matter of progression or evolution. As the black women received more power, it seemed that they became more like the white women and began to explicitly look down on the poorer black social classes. I saw this occurrence when the author talked about the views of the black poor by educated black women being the same as white women.--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
While reading MAW, I came across an exert from Ida B. Wells, which in truth makes sense, but I didn't expect to see exert from something I have read in the past. There piece of the article here touched me almost as much as it touched me then. The black women were not treated equally in any light, and were not considered to be able to be 'raped' because they were not pure and pious like the white women. Part of that comes through in the last paragraph of the exert. It makes me mad to think that people once thought like this, but what is even more scary is some people still do. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
After reading a bit more in the Modern American Women book, I find myself getting emotionally involved with the information presented. I felt anger towards the father who was treating his daughter like a sack of trash in "An immigrant Daughter Awakens to the Possibilities of the New World." I felt heartbroke when he slapped her because she was leaving. At the same time I know this happened a lot towards women... and it breaks my heart to know what some women had to go through. I've been lucky to have a father who was supportive in everything I chose and only opposed my decisions when they were bad decisions. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
Bertha Palmer's speech at the opening of the Women's Building was so progressive except for the part where she says: "It willing acknowledges that the industries, arts, and commerce of the world have been for centuries in the hands of men who have carefully trained themselves for the responsibilities devolving upon them, and who have, consequently, without question, contributed vastly more than women to the valuable thought, research, invention, science, art and literature, which have become the rich heritage of the human race." Does she actually believe this? Or is she catering to what the public will most except in order to support her movement? - Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
I found Anzia Yeziercka's (Immigrant Daughter) story very interesting as far as the existance of two worlds (old/new) for young immigrant women. I feel like today American woman still struggle with existing in between the Old and the New world. It is amazing how sometimes problems never get solved they just evolve. - Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
Mary Harris seemed incredible against the predominant constructs of gender and the entire system of change in America. Clearly she has struggled greatly in her lifetime and criticized women's methods of change... yet she seems to offer now feasibly alternative route. - Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
The difference between the white activism and the black activism discussed in Unequal Sisters was not very surprising to me. I figured that since black women were also fighting for civil rights their fight would be stronger. They seemed to have the largest networks of people working toward the cause. They held fundraising fuctions to help raise the money needed to fund their programs. It is easy to understand how these women bonded in the way that they did. The bond that these women grew amongst themselves was largely due to the having to rely on eachother so much. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
I agree with Kellye about how it wasn't surprising about the differences between black and white activism. The black women had so much more to fight for, and not only that but how education was their most important area of activism instead of voting like for the white women.-- Michelle Mardeusz<br />
<br />
I was impressed with the vast number of organizations that were formed as a result of the fundraising efforts of activist women. I was even more shocked to find the cost of maintaining these organizations and that these women were able to raise the money needed. ---Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
I thought it was very interesting to learn how educated these women were. I knew some women were getting degrees but not this many and not African Americans. I also thought it was interesting to see how important, influential, or rich the parents of these women were even the African American women had wealthy parents. -- Christine Wuebker<br />
<br />
Another thing I found intersting was the view these women had about the role of women. I would have thought that since these women were out in the work force trying to bring about change they would have supported other women in the work place but they don't. It also was a surprise to learn about how many of the women were single, divorced, widowed, married, or living with a "partner." The interacting and sense of community created amoung these women is amazing. -- Christine Wuebker<br />
<br />
It surprises me that black women started to develop social classes just as the white women. Black women who started to gain power, like the power whites had, these black women started to treat the poor and less fortunate black women like a low class. This really bothers me because after everything these women have been through you would except them to try to help each other out, but instead they forget about them and treat them as peasants. What my question is, are these higher powered black women doing this because they are trying to be whiter? Do they care more about upper class societies views on them? -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
I was also surprised on how the black women started a social class just like the white women, but to try and answer your question(s) Amanda, I don't think they were trying to be whiter but maybe instead were so tired of the white social class they were instead competing now against them on what race was better as well as trying to gain the much wanted respect from white society they have wanted for so long. --Michelle Mardeusz<br />
<br />
I agree with Cat and the Anzia Yeziercka's (Immigrant Daughter)piece. Women are stuck dealing with the old and the new world. The problem with todays society is that only some people truly believe in the modern day women however, a good amount of people are so stuck in the past. Its not fair how women have to fight for so much when people need to stop living in the past. --Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
Along with many other posts about the emotional involvement MAW commands of its readers, I found that "Margaret Sanger's Epiphany over Birth Control" opened my eyes to the desperate and difficult position of being a women with no control over her own body. Still today there are few practical birth control methods for the women that need it most. The pill and other hormonal methods are not cheap and condoms primarily place responsiblity on the male partner. It was heart-breaking to hear "a baby born dead, great relief - the death of an older child, sorrow but again relief" (86) as it must have been for Sanger. Sanger was not on a crusade to put a stop to child birth or to change the understanding that sex was for procreation, but rather to bring peace of mind to the women that so desperatly needed it. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
I was very suprised to learn when reading Edith Eudora Ammons' piece about life as a female homesteader that women were more successful in staying with their claims by 6%. As she recalled being driven further and further into the unsettled land I can only imagine how disconnecting and daunting that ride must have been. The Ammons sister's hard work is clear proof of a way in which American women were able to take a different route and break the social expectations. After reading about the women who went west with their husbands or in order to find a husband in the past weeks, it was very uplifting to read about the other opportunities the west had for women. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
I thought "Wages for Housework" was the best essay, it made me laugh. I thought it was very interesting on how she capitalized certain sentences in order to show her frustration and to get her point across. I also thought this essay sounded very much like a modern day women and her frustration with being a house wife and how it is not looked at as being a job, because a lot more than just cleaning and cooking goes into taking care of a house and family. --Michelle Mardeusz<br />
<br />
In Nellie Bly's essay she says, "I had such a strong belief in the world's greeting me as I greeted it, that I refused to arm myself. I knew if my conduct was proper I should always find men ready to protect me,..." (pg6-7) She is amazing in the fact that she was going to attempt to fly around the world and the fact that she was a women was going to make this awesome, but in this quote she seems completely oblivious to the real world, and that not everyone you meet is going to like you, aswell as thinking any man would be willing to protect her. Its like she ready to be considered equal to man by doing this great thing but yet still depend on them for protection. --Michelle Mardeusz<br />
<br />
Gordon's essay in US as Kellye mentions as well as I have responded to her comment above about not being suprised about the differences in white and black women activism, but my question is why could women in general, black and white just come together and be the first ones to over look race and fight the cause of womens rights together? I think if they could have done that would of had a more dominate impact in getting what and where they wanted to be.--Michelle Mardeusz</div>Michellehttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_4_Questions/Comments328--Week 4 Questions/Comments2008-02-07T00:35:36Z<p>Michelle: </p>
<hr />
<div>While reading the primary source documents of the ''Modern American Women'' I found it a bit disconcerting that the women were so similar to the women of today. It is kind of a shame that history repeats itself so fully. I suppose it is evidence that change is gradual and more of an evolution. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Although it was an interesting study, Linda Gordon's study "Black and White Visions of Welfare: Women's Welfare Activism, 1890-1945" came very close to simply listing the differences between the two races of activists. Her conclusions did not seem to have a lot of depth. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I have to agree with Justin Mattos on his comment about Linda Gordon's essay. I too felt that that she really just listed the differences and similarities without any real conclusion. However, I do believe to have a better sense of what was happening, it is good to know that just because welfare groups existed, they didn't all go after the same things. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I also observed in the primary source documents of ''Modern American Women'' that the stereotypes of women have only changed slightly today. Women are still thought to be more fragile than men, and there is still a need to protect them from harm. It has only been within the last decade that the idea of a working women has gained mainstream acceptance. I wonder if this observation stems from the fact that the primary source documents that I read were from the perspective of educated women. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Chapter 14 of Unequal Sisters deals with the differences in welfare activism between African American and white women. Gordon points out that white women had more of an ability to work politically and seek donations from those who would be more able to help (i.e. congressional representatives or other political figures) while the African American women focused their activities around the community and church. She continues, to point out that white women activists focused more on charity and relief while black women sought to provide for more universal needs such as education and health. If there were poor or unfortunate people in both groups (black and white), why is it that white women activists focused on particular people while black women activists focused on reform that is more general? Did societal norms during this time make it more inappropriate to provide individual charity to black women? --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I found it interesting to read “Speaking out Against Lynching” by Ida B. Wells. She discusses the harsh punishments that African Americans were subjected to due to the stereotypes that white men and women held. On p age 15 she states, “With the Southern white man, any misalliance existing between a white woman and a colored man is a sufficient foundation for the charge of rape. The southern white man says that it is impossible for a voluntary alliance to exist between a white woman and a colored man, and therefore, the fact of an alliance is a proof of force.” Given this, would it also be considered rape if it were a black woman and a white man? Moreover, who would be at fault, would it be the man forcing himself onto the woman, or the woman because she is black? --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I also thought the reading by Wells was interesting. She only discusses the accusations that black men were raping white women. She never mentions black women being raped. Was it just something that they didn't talk about or something that they just took as a fact of life during those times? I thought it interesting that discussing how black men were falsely accused of rape and lynched even when it was well known at the time that it was a concentual relationship, but then went on to say that even when the white man left for war he left the white women to be protected by the black men. So why all of a sudden is the lynching of black men on the rise? Was it because now they were free and more like competition to the whites than they had been before?~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
<br />
In response to Mary Beth, I do think that to some extent the lynching of black was due to competition, but also due to fear. Before the African Americans were free, white men had never considered them to be a threat. When they left home they trusted that they would return with their home and family in the same state. It never crossed their minds that it would be possible for their family to be in danger because there had never been any reason to mistrust. Wells states on page 15 that "the world has accepted the story that the Negro is a monster which the Southern white man has painted him." With this image that is created, when the African Americans are free, the white men thus see it as the release of "a monster" and they no longer feel safe and trustworthy as they did before, when "the monster" was contained. --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
In response to Jessica's question, I think that white women were able to focus more on specific groups, because unlike black women, white women just had to focus on issues of sexual inequality whereas black women had the issues of sexual AND racial inequality going against them, as well as establishing themselves in a newly free world. Chapter 14 of Unequal Sister does highlight that the two major focus point for black women groups was education and health care. These were issues that obviously had to be taken care of after slavery because the whites weren't going to provide it fully for them (yes, a lot of groups DID help) but they knew they had to rely on themselves(as the article shows) to fully develop and not remain stagnant and looked down upon by the white community.- Emely Amaya.<br />
<br />
I also found in interesting in Gordon's piece on Welfare that she notes one specific difference. She states that the white groups that were looking for reform were looking at people "other" than themselves. They saw themselves as helping people less fortunate than themselves but still with a "moral" aspect between who was the "worthy and the unworthy poor" (pg 225). In contrast the black groups focused on middle class and poor blacks. The black groups also focused more on education and health instead of charitys like the whites. ~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
<br />
After reading ''Modern American Women'' I do agree with my classmates on how the perception of women has not changed drastically. It is now socially acceptable for a women to go off into the business world and make a name for herself. Even jobs such a teacher and a nurse that were considered women's work are still dominated today by women. Since I am an education major I go into a lot of elementary schools and the staff is female dominated. I think it is wrong that today where anyone can be anything, people still stereotype jobs and classify things as mens work or females work. This eve goes beyond the adults of the nation. We start these stereotypes early in children's lives. I have always remembered when I was younger and would go to Mc Donalds they would ask "would you like a girl toy or a boy toy?" Sometimes yeah I wanted the princess toy but other times I also wanted the hot wheels car. It is so disturbing to know that we are still dealing with this issue. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
After reading the article on Women's welfare activism,I too felt that she really just listed the differences and similarities without any real conclusion.However on the second page of the article, it talks about the differences of how white and black women were raising money. It says oh of course women raise money but they were also so busy attending White House conferences and correspondence with Supreme Court Justices and the black women it just states they organized bake sales, rummage sales and church dinners. I guess after reading this my biggest pet peeve is that yes white women did have more power in society. However, its not like there were no black women doing the same things. I just don't like how these women are talked down, for what they had their time was just as well spent as a white women. This really just made me feel that white women were more interested in their social lives or making them selves look better and black women worked as a team, they worked for the well being of everyone. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
While reading Chapter 14, I began to think about the possibly that the difference between the perspective of white women and black women on the poor that they helped was a matter of progression or evolution. As the black women received more power, it seemed that they became more like the white women and began to explicitly look down on the poorer black social classes. I saw this occurrence when the author talked about the views of the black poor by educated black women being the same as white women.--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
While reading MAW, I came across an exert from Ida B. Wells, which in truth makes sense, but I didn't expect to see exert from something I have read in the past. There piece of the article here touched me almost as much as it touched me then. The black women were not treated equally in any light, and were not considered to be able to be 'raped' because they were not pure and pious like the white women. Part of that comes through in the last paragraph of the exert. It makes me mad to think that people once thought like this, but what is even more scary is some people still do. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
After reading a bit more in the Modern American Women book, I find myself getting emotionally involved with the information presented. I felt anger towards the father who was treating his daughter like a sack of trash in "An immigrant Daughter Awakens to the Possibilities of the New World." I felt heartbroke when he slapped her because she was leaving. At the same time I know this happened a lot towards women... and it breaks my heart to know what some women had to go through. I've been lucky to have a father who was supportive in everything I chose and only opposed my decisions when they were bad decisions. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
Bertha Palmer's speech at the opening of the Women's Building was so progressive except for the part where she says: "It willing acknowledges that the industries, arts, and commerce of the world have been for centuries in the hands of men who have carefully trained themselves for the responsibilities devolving upon them, and who have, consequently, without question, contributed vastly more than women to the valuable thought, research, invention, science, art and literature, which have become the rich heritage of the human race." Does she actually believe this? Or is she catering to what the public will most except in order to support her movement? - Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
I found Anzia Yeziercka's (Immigrant Daughter) story very interesting as far as the existance of two worlds (old/new) for young immigrant women. I feel like today American woman still struggle with existing in between the Old and the New world. It is amazing how sometimes problems never get solved they just evolve. - Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
Mary Harris seemed incredible against the predominant constructs of gender and the entire system of change in America. Clearly she has struggled greatly in her lifetime and criticized women's methods of change... yet she seems to offer now feasibly alternative route. - Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
The difference between the white activism and the black activism discussed in Unequal Sisters was not very surprising to me. I figured that since black women were also fighting for civil rights their fight would be stronger. They seemed to have the largest networks of people working toward the cause. They held fundraising fuctions to help raise the money needed to fund their programs. It is easy to understand how these women bonded in the way that they did. The bond that these women grew amongst themselves was largely due to the having to rely on eachother so much. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
I agree with Kellye about how it wasn't surprising about the differences between black and white activism. The black women had so much more to fight for, and not only that but how education was their most important area of activism instead of voting like for the white women.-- Michelle Mardeusz<br />
<br />
I was impressed with the vast number of organizations that were formed as a result of the fundraising efforts of activist women. I was even more shocked to find the cost of maintaining these organizations and that these women were able to raise the money needed. ---Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
I thought it was very interesting to learn how educated these women were. I knew some women were getting degrees but not this many and not African Americans. I also thought it was interesting to see how important, influential, or rich the parents of these women were even the African American women had wealthy parents. -- Christine Wuebker<br />
<br />
Another thing I found intersting was the view these women had about the role of women. I would have thought that since these women were out in the work force trying to bring about change they would have supported other women in the work place but they don't. It also was a surprise to learn about how many of the women were single, divorced, widowed, married, or living with a "partner." The interacting and sense of community created amoung these women is amazing. -- Christine Wuebker<br />
<br />
It surprises me that black women started to develop social classes just as the white women. Black women who started to gain power, like the power whites had, these black women started to treat the poor and less fortunate black women like a low class. This really bothers me because after everything these women have been through you would except them to try to help each other out, but instead they forget about them and treat them as peasants. What my question is, are these higher powered black women doing this because they are trying to be whiter? Do they care more about upper class societies views on them? -- Amanda Taub<br />
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I was also surprised on how the black women started a social class just like the white women, but to try and answer your question(s) Amanda, I don't think they were trying to be whiter but maybe instead were so tired of the white social class they were instead competing now against them on what race was better as well as trying to gain the much wanted respect from white society they have wanted for so long. --Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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I agree with Cat and the Anzia Yeziercka's (Immigrant Daughter)piece. Women are stuck dealing with the old and the new world. The problem with todays society is that only some people truly believe in the modern day women however, a good amount of people are so stuck in the past. Its not fair how women have to fight for so much when people need to stop living in the past. --Amanda Taub<br />
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Along with many other posts about the emotional involvement MAW commands of its readers, I found that "Margaret Sanger's Epiphany over Birth Control" opened my eyes to the desperate and difficult position of being a women with no control over her own body. Still today there are few practical birth control methods for the women that need it most. The pill and other hormonal methods are not cheap and condoms primarily place responsiblity on the male partner. It was heart-breaking to hear "a baby born dead, great relief - the death of an older child, sorrow but again relief" (86) as it must have been for Sanger. Sanger was not on a crusade to put a stop to child birth or to change the understanding that sex was for procreation, but rather to bring peace of mind to the women that so desperatly needed it. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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I was very suprised to learn when reading Edith Eudora Ammons' piece about life as a female homesteader that women were more successful in staying with their claims by 6%. As she recalled being driven further and further into the unsettled land I can only imagine how disconnecting and daunting that ride must have been. The Ammons sister's hard work is clear proof of a way in which American women were able to take a different route and break the social expectations. After reading about the women who went west with their husbands or in order to find a husband in the past weeks, it was very uplifting to read about the other opportunities the west had for women. -- Meredith Bojarski</div>Michellehttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_4_Questions/Comments328--Week 4 Questions/Comments2008-02-07T00:30:30Z<p>Michelle: </p>
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<div>While reading the primary source documents of the ''Modern American Women'' I found it a bit disconcerting that the women were so similar to the women of today. It is kind of a shame that history repeats itself so fully. I suppose it is evidence that change is gradual and more of an evolution. --Justin Mattos<br />
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Although it was an interesting study, Linda Gordon's study "Black and White Visions of Welfare: Women's Welfare Activism, 1890-1945" came very close to simply listing the differences between the two races of activists. Her conclusions did not seem to have a lot of depth. --Justin Mattos<br />
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I have to agree with Justin Mattos on his comment about Linda Gordon's essay. I too felt that that she really just listed the differences and similarities without any real conclusion. However, I do believe to have a better sense of what was happening, it is good to know that just because welfare groups existed, they didn't all go after the same things. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I also observed in the primary source documents of ''Modern American Women'' that the stereotypes of women have only changed slightly today. Women are still thought to be more fragile than men, and there is still a need to protect them from harm. It has only been within the last decade that the idea of a working women has gained mainstream acceptance. I wonder if this observation stems from the fact that the primary source documents that I read were from the perspective of educated women. --Justin Mattos<br />
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Chapter 14 of Unequal Sisters deals with the differences in welfare activism between African American and white women. Gordon points out that white women had more of an ability to work politically and seek donations from those who would be more able to help (i.e. congressional representatives or other political figures) while the African American women focused their activities around the community and church. She continues, to point out that white women activists focused more on charity and relief while black women sought to provide for more universal needs such as education and health. If there were poor or unfortunate people in both groups (black and white), why is it that white women activists focused on particular people while black women activists focused on reform that is more general? Did societal norms during this time make it more inappropriate to provide individual charity to black women? --Jessica Kilday<br />
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I found it interesting to read “Speaking out Against Lynching” by Ida B. Wells. She discusses the harsh punishments that African Americans were subjected to due to the stereotypes that white men and women held. On p age 15 she states, “With the Southern white man, any misalliance existing between a white woman and a colored man is a sufficient foundation for the charge of rape. The southern white man says that it is impossible for a voluntary alliance to exist between a white woman and a colored man, and therefore, the fact of an alliance is a proof of force.” Given this, would it also be considered rape if it were a black woman and a white man? Moreover, who would be at fault, would it be the man forcing himself onto the woman, or the woman because she is black? --Jessica Kilday<br />
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I also thought the reading by Wells was interesting. She only discusses the accusations that black men were raping white women. She never mentions black women being raped. Was it just something that they didn't talk about or something that they just took as a fact of life during those times? I thought it interesting that discussing how black men were falsely accused of rape and lynched even when it was well known at the time that it was a concentual relationship, but then went on to say that even when the white man left for war he left the white women to be protected by the black men. So why all of a sudden is the lynching of black men on the rise? Was it because now they were free and more like competition to the whites than they had been before?~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
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In response to Mary Beth, I do think that to some extent the lynching of black was due to competition, but also due to fear. Before the African Americans were free, white men had never considered them to be a threat. When they left home they trusted that they would return with their home and family in the same state. It never crossed their minds that it would be possible for their family to be in danger because there had never been any reason to mistrust. Wells states on page 15 that "the world has accepted the story that the Negro is a monster which the Southern white man has painted him." With this image that is created, when the African Americans are free, the white men thus see it as the release of "a monster" and they no longer feel safe and trustworthy as they did before, when "the monster" was contained. --Jessica Kilday<br />
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In response to Jessica's question, I think that white women were able to focus more on specific groups, because unlike black women, white women just had to focus on issues of sexual inequality whereas black women had the issues of sexual AND racial inequality going against them, as well as establishing themselves in a newly free world. Chapter 14 of Unequal Sister does highlight that the two major focus point for black women groups was education and health care. These were issues that obviously had to be taken care of after slavery because the whites weren't going to provide it fully for them (yes, a lot of groups DID help) but they knew they had to rely on themselves(as the article shows) to fully develop and not remain stagnant and looked down upon by the white community.- Emely Amaya.<br />
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I also found in interesting in Gordon's piece on Welfare that she notes one specific difference. She states that the white groups that were looking for reform were looking at people "other" than themselves. They saw themselves as helping people less fortunate than themselves but still with a "moral" aspect between who was the "worthy and the unworthy poor" (pg 225). In contrast the black groups focused on middle class and poor blacks. The black groups also focused more on education and health instead of charitys like the whites. ~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
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After reading ''Modern American Women'' I do agree with my classmates on how the perception of women has not changed drastically. It is now socially acceptable for a women to go off into the business world and make a name for herself. Even jobs such a teacher and a nurse that were considered women's work are still dominated today by women. Since I am an education major I go into a lot of elementary schools and the staff is female dominated. I think it is wrong that today where anyone can be anything, people still stereotype jobs and classify things as mens work or females work. This eve goes beyond the adults of the nation. We start these stereotypes early in children's lives. I have always remembered when I was younger and would go to Mc Donalds they would ask "would you like a girl toy or a boy toy?" Sometimes yeah I wanted the princess toy but other times I also wanted the hot wheels car. It is so disturbing to know that we are still dealing with this issue. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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After reading the article on Women's welfare activism,I too felt that she really just listed the differences and similarities without any real conclusion.However on the second page of the article, it talks about the differences of how white and black women were raising money. It says oh of course women raise money but they were also so busy attending White House conferences and correspondence with Supreme Court Justices and the black women it just states they organized bake sales, rummage sales and church dinners. I guess after reading this my biggest pet peeve is that yes white women did have more power in society. However, its not like there were no black women doing the same things. I just don't like how these women are talked down, for what they had their time was just as well spent as a white women. This really just made me feel that white women were more interested in their social lives or making them selves look better and black women worked as a team, they worked for the well being of everyone. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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While reading Chapter 14, I began to think about the possibly that the difference between the perspective of white women and black women on the poor that they helped was a matter of progression or evolution. As the black women received more power, it seemed that they became more like the white women and began to explicitly look down on the poorer black social classes. I saw this occurrence when the author talked about the views of the black poor by educated black women being the same as white women.--Justin Mattos<br />
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While reading MAW, I came across an exert from Ida B. Wells, which in truth makes sense, but I didn't expect to see exert from something I have read in the past. There piece of the article here touched me almost as much as it touched me then. The black women were not treated equally in any light, and were not considered to be able to be 'raped' because they were not pure and pious like the white women. Part of that comes through in the last paragraph of the exert. It makes me mad to think that people once thought like this, but what is even more scary is some people still do. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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After reading a bit more in the Modern American Women book, I find myself getting emotionally involved with the information presented. I felt anger towards the father who was treating his daughter like a sack of trash in "An immigrant Daughter Awakens to the Possibilities of the New World." I felt heartbroke when he slapped her because she was leaving. At the same time I know this happened a lot towards women... and it breaks my heart to know what some women had to go through. I've been lucky to have a father who was supportive in everything I chose and only opposed my decisions when they were bad decisions. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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Bertha Palmer's speech at the opening of the Women's Building was so progressive except for the part where she says: "It willing acknowledges that the industries, arts, and commerce of the world have been for centuries in the hands of men who have carefully trained themselves for the responsibilities devolving upon them, and who have, consequently, without question, contributed vastly more than women to the valuable thought, research, invention, science, art and literature, which have become the rich heritage of the human race." Does she actually believe this? Or is she catering to what the public will most except in order to support her movement? - Cat Debelius<br />
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I found Anzia Yeziercka's (Immigrant Daughter) story very interesting as far as the existance of two worlds (old/new) for young immigrant women. I feel like today American woman still struggle with existing in between the Old and the New world. It is amazing how sometimes problems never get solved they just evolve. - Cat Debelius<br />
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Mary Harris seemed incredible against the predominant constructs of gender and the entire system of change in America. Clearly she has struggled greatly in her lifetime and criticized women's methods of change... yet she seems to offer now feasibly alternative route. - Cat Debelius<br />
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The difference between the white activism and the black activism discussed in Unequal Sisters was not very surprising to me. I figured that since black women were also fighting for civil rights their fight would be stronger. They seemed to have the largest networks of people working toward the cause. They held fundraising fuctions to help raise the money needed to fund their programs. It is easy to understand how these women bonded in the way that they did. The bond that these women grew amongst themselves was largely due to the having to rely on eachother so much. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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I agree with Kellye about how it wasn't surprising about the differences between black and white activism. The black women had so much more to fight for, and not only that but how education was their most important area of activism instead of voting like for the white women.-- Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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I was impressed with the vast number of organizations that were formed as a result of the fundraising efforts of activist women. I was even more shocked to find the cost of maintaining these organizations and that these women were able to raise the money needed. ---Kellye Sorber<br />
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I thought it was very interesting to learn how educated these women were. I knew some women were getting degrees but not this many and not African Americans. I also thought it was interesting to see how important, influential, or rich the parents of these women were even the African American women had wealthy parents. -- Christine Wuebker<br />
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Another thing I found intersting was the view these women had about the role of women. I would have thought that since these women were out in the work force trying to bring about change they would have supported other women in the work place but they don't. It also was a surprise to learn about how many of the women were single, divorced, widowed, married, or living with a "partner." The interacting and sense of community created amoung these women is amazing. -- Christine Wuebker<br />
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It surprises me that black women started to develop social classes just as the white women. Black women who started to gain power, like the power whites had, these black women started to treat the poor and less fortunate black women like a low class. This really bothers me because after everything these women have been through you would except them to try to help each other out, but instead they forget about them and treat them as peasants. What my question is, are these higher powered black women doing this because they are trying to be whiter? Do they care more about upper class societies views on them? -- Amanda Taub<br />
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I was surprised also on how the black women started a social class just like the white women, but to try and answer your question(s) Amanda, I don't think they were trying to be whiter but maybe instead were so tired of the white social class they were instead competing now against them on what race was better as well as trying to gain the much wanted respect from white society they have wanted for so long. --Michelle Mardeusz<br />
I agree with Cat and the Anzia Yeziercka's (Immigrant Daughter)piece. Women are stuck dealing with the old and the new world. The problem with todays society is that only some people truly believe in the modern day women however, a good amount of people are so stuck in the past. Its not fair how women have to fight for so much when people need to stop living in the past. --Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
Along with many other posts about the emotional involvement MAW commands of its readers, I found that "Margaret Sanger's Epiphany over Birth Control" opened my eyes to the desperate and difficult position of being a women with no control over her own body. Still today there are few practical birth control methods for the women that need it most. The pill and other hormonal methods are not cheap and condoms primarily place responsiblity on the male partner. It was heart-breaking to hear "a baby born dead, great relief - the death of an older child, sorrow but again relief" (86) as it must have been for Sanger. Sanger was not on a crusade to put a stop to child birth or to change the understanding that sex was for procreation, but rather to bring peace of mind to the women that so desperatly needed it. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
I was very suprised to learn when reading Edith Eudora Ammons' piece about life as a female homesteader that women were more successful in staying with their claims by 6%. As she recalled being driven further and further into the unsettled land I can only imagine how disconnecting and daunting that ride must have been. The Ammons sister's hard work is clear proof of a way in which American women were able to take a different route and break the social expectations. After reading about the women who went west with their husbands or in order to find a husband in the past weeks, it was very uplifting to read about the other opportunities the west had for women. -- Meredith Bojarski</div>Michellehttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_2_Questions/Comments328--Week 2 Questions/Comments2008-01-23T16:56:08Z<p>Michelle: </p>
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<div>I found it interesting that the concept of a separation between freedom and suffrage that existed during the Post-Civil War period is very well upheld assumption today. --Justin Mattos<br />
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The gradual disenfranchisement and barring from political participation of black women seems to be an interesting example of white society's influence on black culture. --Justin Mattos<br />
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What were the similarities between the political participation of black women and political participation of the women of immigrant groups and other minorities? --Justin Mattos<br />
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I thought it was very interesting in the reading where the author discussed the concept of family being the "unifying thread" that bound African Americans together. She says that "the notion of family members as having a mutual and continuing responsibility to help each other and to prepare for hard times" (pg 125). Wouldn't that have been true of any family during the reconstruction period, black or white? ~~Mary Beth C<br />
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I agree with Justin that it is interesting to see how the African American women were gradually pushed out of the political arena after having been so active and vocal. I think it is funny how the women would "take sactions" (pg 135),such as abstaining from sexual relations, against men that voted for the Democratic party! ~~ Mary Beth C<br />
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The concept that I found most intriguing overall in the reading was the conflicting views of freedom and suffrage being an individual possession versus communal. This led to the different treatment of people who voted against the popular view. To someone who thought individuals were responsible to only themselves they would view hostility against other voters as opposing the libreal democratic process whereas in the African American community, where suffrage was viewed as a collective possesion, it was right to be hostile towards those who threatened the well being of the whole community. -Karly Kovalcik<br />
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Although the difference may be slight on paper, there is a huge difference between the African American woman's perspective that her husband votes for her in a way that represents her political beliefs and ideologies versus a white woman's perspective that her husband voted for her without consulting with her because he acted individually in a way that was best for his wife and children. -Karly Kovalcik<br />
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After reading the article I made a decision that I had previously I had been flip-flopping between. I now believe that there needs to be subcategories of the women's history to include at least, but not limiting to, African American Women's history. The history seems to be so different just from the article we had to read. Such as, the black women feeling that they were equally part of the vote that the black men casted. I don't remember ever hearing about that before, at least with white women, but then again I haven't taken a women's history course before either -- Ashley Wilkins<br />
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The other thing I found interesting in the article by Elsa Brown was just how the women and men viewed the 'sense of the vote' at first. Such as the vote casted by the men was equally the women's vote, and how the black republican politicians were able to get (well, it seems like the article was meaning quite a few) many of the black women to reject black male democratic voters. Also, just the fact the black women to fight to even get to vote in Richmond's First African Baptist Church astounded me with the way the article was talking about community earlier on. It definitely feels like slowly, but surely, the women were losing the political say they had through their men. -- Ashley Wilkins<br />
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In chapter 8, Brown gives examples of the freed African American trying to regain the importance of ''the family''. The church was impacted by the new seating integration, families lived together in support, and even none relatives were taken into homes that had room in racial solidarity. Single and widowed women lived together, sharing incomes and responsibility over child care. In a way, black women were improving and strengthening the idea of ''the family'' that white society held such virtue in. By living as sisters with none relatives, but former "fellow servants", African American women created an even stronger sense of female solidarity and sisterhood than white women. While many white women of the time looked down on excessive charity (even to single women with children), black women were united. I believe the lacking sense of sisterhood among all white women and failure to unite with African American women hurt them in the struggle for suffrage.--Jackie Reed<br />
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The experience of slavery created a need to embrace other African Americans, so it is not surprising that they reached out to the community of African Americans during the Reconstruction Era and beyond. It was family and a sense of community that held African Americans together. "Whether one eats or starves in this setting depends on the available resources within the community as a whole."(126) This essay reminded me of a conversation that I had with a senior African American woman in Georgia, who told me that during the violence of the 1950s communities of African Americans posted neighborhood watches. According to the story, white males, sometimes intoxicated, would drive through black communities seeking victims. The men took on the responsibility of protecting the citizens within the community. This women said that they seldom left the neighborhood due to potential violence, and there was no need to because school, church, and markets were all within the perimeter of the black community.--LisaM<br />
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The concept that the freedom and political liberty of U.S. citizens was not synonymous (130) seems a blatent contradition to present day eyes. As we all know, the black codes in the Reconstruction Era disenfranchised large populations of blacks. Brown's essay states that black women felt they had a stake in the man's choice in voting. I recall in Georgia history, the sizeable female black population was considered a threat if allowed to vote; black women were inclined to vote Republican, and the South were Democrats.--LisaM<br />
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I agree with Karly about how there is a huge difference between the African American woman's perspective that her husband votes for her representing her political beliefs and to a white woman's perspective that the husband voted for her without consulting with her. That he voted for who he though was best for him and his wife and children. I think it shows that even though all men are superior when it comes to women, African American men have more respect to their wives then a white man does to his. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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Something that I found interesting in the reading was when it discussed how blacks were active participants throughout the state constitutional convention. African Americans both male and female crowded the galleries speaking their opinions letting their voices be heard. It says " White women, for example, certainly on occasion sat in the convention's gallery as visitors silently observing the proceedings..."(pg129). African American women were standing besides the men that "represented" them and took part in trying to make changes, while the white women sat there quietly letting their men make decisions for them. I just find this funny because you would think a white women would have a little more part in politics; but I guess an African American woman didn't have much to loose if she spoke out of turn or defended her own ideas. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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I thought it was interesting that Brown discussed the varying ways to interpret the word “freedom.” For black women, freedom was the ability to remain close to the community and help the family. She stated that for black women, “the charity of this penniless negress in receiving another poverty-stricken creature under her roof was characteristic of the freedmen” (p. 126). On the other hand, from the perspective of white men and women, freedom was the ability to get ahead and better oneself. For example, Brown states, “freedpeople should adopt naturally those habits of thrift, diligence, and acquisitiveness that were a cornerstone of free labor ideology” (p.127). This highlights an important difference in perspective. --Jessica Kilday<br />
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Brown talks a lot about the difference between freedom and political liberty. There was debate on whether or not civil right should be an “inherent corollary to freedom.” She mentions the views of Gibson when discussing this point, in which he suggests, “persons who had not yet learned to regulate their lives appropriately—to be thrifty, industrious, and diligent—were not yet capable of responsibly exercising liberty. Those not capable of political liberty would rely on those capable of it to protect their freedom” (p 130). In the time following the civil war, women did not have the right to vote, given this statement, is it because society did not view them as “capable of the responsibility?” Moreover, is this, to some extent true today, with the definition of “capable”, not applying to gender, but to age? --Jessica Kilday<br />
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In Browns essay I thought it was interesting on page 129 that during debates white women were silent and the African Americans were not. Instead they participated and loudly; however Brown doesn't say whether the African Amercians were men or women or both. Why were the white women silent? <br />
Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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What was also intersting to me in Browns essay was that Southern Black women and men debated the issue of woman suffrage (131). I assume this is because Black men were in the same boat as women in general because they didn't have much rights either so they understood the frustration of not having certain rights and in this case the right to vote. <br />
Michelle Mardeusz</div>Michellehttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_1_Questions/Comments328--Week 1 Questions/Comments2008-01-16T18:02:36Z<p>Michelle: </p>
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<div>This is not a real post.<br />
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I agree.<br />
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You're both wrong. -- Sarah H.<br />
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I found it extremely interesting in "Challenging Dichotomies in Women's History" that fatherhood was not seen as a natural thing but instead was viewed as being "social". Yet for women being a mother was a "natural" phenomenon. I would have thought that it would have also been seen as natural for the man to also assume a fatherly role despite his involvement in the public sphere. Is this because the men were already doing so much that being a fatherly figure just couldn't always be an important role? Or is it because if they were expected to show a more emotional side of them they would be considered less of a man because they wouldn't be acting tough? - Elizabeth L. Frank<br />
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I was surprised to read in "Rethinking the Position of Black Women in American Women's History" that some Black Women scholars feel that even today the importance of black women and their roles in society are being overlooked in the fields of women's studies! I understood that it took a little while for scholars to realize that they had to look at the difference ethnicities differently as far as their experiences in society but I had no idea that there were aspects that were still being overlooked. I also liked the statement Leslie Alexander made in the first sentence of the last paragraph of the essay that in order to truly understand the experiences of women that scholars must become willing to explore the differences of the cultures instead of simply ignoring the fact that they are different. I thought that was a very good point. - Elizabeth L. Frank<br />
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The theme of the four essays is to tackle the question, what is the meaning and importance in studying women’s history? In the first essay, Haulman points out that the study of women’s history has changed over time. It first focused on the measurable contributions of women to American society and then shifted to focus more on the private lives of women in their home life. -- Jessica Kilday<br />
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It is interesting to note in the second essay that Bock brings up many different theories with which to compare the role of men and women in society. When examining the dichotomies suggested it is interesting to consider not only how women have affected society but also how the norms of society influenced the role of women. -- Jessica Kilday<br />
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More than one of the essays point out that many subjects in American women’s history has been concentrated on white middle class women. It is important to look at the role of culture and ethnicity in women’s studies because all of these factors affect the experiences and challenges of women in society. The study of women is not static; it is changing, and shaped by many different factors, and it is important to consider more than one. -- Jessica Kilday<br />
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In the essay "Women of Color and the Rewriting of Western History," I found it interesting that the women's liberation movement in the United States was mainly about gender oppression. The movements were middle class white women who wrote about the history of white women in the West. Though, women of color looked towards third-world liberation movements for support instead of women's liberation movements. Only if women of all different ethnicities joined together earlier would women's rights have developed earlier? Also women of color's gender oppression was different than white women's gender oppression in that colored women had to struggle with race and class unlike white women who mostly struggled with class. --Ashley Scutari<br />
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In the essay "Challenging Dichotomies in Women's History," I found it interesting in the first point Nature vs. Culture that fatherhood was not seen as natural but social. Women scholars challenged this by stating that women are therefore seen as "nature always having a social meaning" and nature and culture mean different things in different times. Women are the ones that physically have the baby, but that does not mean they have to be subject to the male sexes. Men are also taught to grow up as a strong non-emotional person. This could also be why fatherhood is seen as social instead of natural. <br />
--Ashley Scutari<br />
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In "Challenging Dichotomies in Women's History" Gisela Bock discusses how a woman's nature were child bearing, carring for the family, and taking care of things around the house originated from Europe; but what was once seen as nature is now seen as work. I I find this very true today, because a lot of stay home mothers consider their position as a mother and care taker of the home a job, however without pay as Bock mentions an "unpaid work." (pg 9) Also on the other hand there are many women that work and women for years have competed with the men in their wages but because of their sex and not who does the job best. Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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Leslie M. Alexander's essay mostly discusses black women and how their history is different from that of white womens history, which it is, but in today's society of white and black women are they still that different? Is this generation of black women still largley influenced by past generations in how they view themselves as black women? She also goes on to say that in order to understand black women you have to understand the black community. (pg 21) I think understanding any comminity that in its self is a different culture you have to understand their culture and way of life before understanding that community of people. The United States is full of all kinds of culturally different people. Michelle Mardeusz</div>Michelle Deprecated: header(): Passing null to parameter #3 ($response_code) of type int is deprecated in /home/umwhisto/public_html/mcclurken/wiki/includes/WebResponse.php on line 38