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Deprecated: header(): Passing null to parameter #3 ($response_code) of type int is deprecated in /home/umwhisto/public_html/mcclurken/wiki/includes/WebResponse.php on line 38 https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/api.php?action=feedcontributions&feedformat=atom&user=LmeissnerMcClurken Wiki - User contributions [en]2026-09-18T22:57:43ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.22.0https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_14_Questions/Comments328--Week 14 Questions/Comments2008-04-24T12:22:09Z<p>Lmeissner: /* Roe v. Wade Decision (both Blackmun’s majority ruling and White’s dissent). */</p>
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<div>== Overarching comments ==<br />
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I just have a general comment. '''It was surprising to me how recent some of these essays were dated. I guess I never thought of this time period as very relevant or active for women's rights... because I guess it is!''' I mean I would definitely describe myself as a feminists, but I guess I kind of feel that in this day and age... '''doesn't every women in my age bracket feel like a feminist? Are there actually people in the younger generation today that are advocating for women to be defined by their role of mother and that is it?''' I think it is great if a women chooses to stay home with her family, but really i just think ti is great if a women chooses whatever makes her happy, no matter what that is. Do all people in this generation not feel this way?- Cat Debelius<br />
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To answer Cat's question, no not everyone in this generation feels that way. There are still debutants in the South who go to school to find a husband and take classes to be good housewives. '''I also had some girls on my floor freshman year who were forming a housewives club to learn how to cook and clean and be good housewives.''' - Chrisitne W.<br />
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MP, 459-469, 506-524<br />
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== Roe v. Wade Decision (both Blackmun’s majority ruling and White’s dissent). ==<br />
I'll take the first whack, since nobody else is touching this yet. First let me say, that a woman's body is her own and should be fully respected. Justice Blackmun mentions the 14th Amendment not recognizing a fetus as a person. This is technically and legally correct. That being said, technology now gives us more information, which perhaps can make choices for women even more difficult. The abortion argument has centered, for quite some time, on one question: When does life begin? At conception, when a fetus is considered viable (22-24 weeks approximately) or at full term. This has been the subject of much debate. The most difficult part of the equation is the inherent EMOTION that will always be involved in this debate, whether one is pro-choice or pro-life. ''' A big part ot the problem also is the extreme rhetoric used by both sides''' - example. - Pro-lifers screaming "baby Killers" at Planned Parenhood workers; Pro-choice women insisting that their bodies are essentially theirs and theirs alone, even though a 20 week old fetus is kicking her belly, and a 30 week old fetus can make her foot or hand visible on a mother's belly! Unfortunately, common sense in America rarely prevails. RU 486 is still a restricted drug. A pregnancy terminated in the first several weeks, I have no moral qualms with. However, I have to confess to this: I have attended over a dozen fetal ultrasound sessions with my wife, at least two for each of my children, the last many because of a prenatal problem. As of our last child (2006), Ultrasound technology could detect a visible FETAL HEARTBEAT at six to seven weeks gestation. The heartrate is over 150 beats per minute, and resembles a very quickly twinkling star, or almost like a twinkle light on a Christmas tree. Sorry to get emotional, but at this point, this IS A LIFE. At least as far as my wife and I were concerned, we were then charged with the responsiblity of protecting that life however we could. For my wife, it meant taking good care of herself and refraining from alcohol and reducing caffeine intake. For me, it meant stepping up the pace on my end with housework, taking out the cat litter all the time (toxic for pregnant women) and being patient when crying jags and nesting urges kicked in for my better half. But it was all worth it! - Phil Novalski<br />
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I have to agree with Phil on the first several weeks part. At that point, the fetus is really nothing but a bunch of dividing cells. '''I honestly don't know how I feel about abortion.''' I think that it is important to be able to allow women who are fatally at risk to be able to have them, but I have some issues with the way some people use and treat abortion. The main problem that I have is when people use it as a form of birth control. When my mother first started working as a nurse, a woman called for a nurse to help her out of the bathroom. She assisted the lady, and then went back to flush the toilet for her. There was a bloody fetus in the toilet bowl. Needless to say, my mother freaked out. The nurses who had been there longer told her that that woman comes in every several months and has an abortion, and that she used it as birth control. Now, I know that this is not the norm, or at least I hope not, but instead of killing the child, take the care to prevent its conception first. - Sarah H.<br />
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There are no easy answers to this topic, but I don't think that one person has the right to dictate to another, in this case a woman, what she can or cannot do with her body. The original anti-abortion laws were written and maintained by men. Here comes a women's group saying that they have a right to control what happens with their bodies, and the Supreme Court validated that right with Roe vs. Wade. For every story where abortion seems inappropriate, there is probably a story of justification. Why do people think that reversing Roe vs. Wade will stop abortion? If you remember, women were aborting long before the decision at the risk of their health and life. If the decision is ever reversed, I imagine women will still seek out abortions.--LisaM<br />
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== Lindsey Van Gelder reports on “Women vs. the NY Times” in Ms. in 1978. ==<br />
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== Connaught Marshner explains what social conservatives really want, 1988. ==<br />
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I found this essay really interesting. '''I was shocked by how much this women feared divorce and female independence.''' Did she honestly think that women that were still "fulfilled" without a man around and raised children without a man in the house were actually ruining society? This was written in 1988!! - Cat Debelius<br />
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I agree with Cat, Marshner's opinions seem somewhat outdated today. But she also seems to be a product of Reagan and many popular opinion shifts of the 1980s. I think the increase in divorce rate as well as the family's decrease of importance "functions once served by the family are now provided by the government" brought about the resurfacing of issues like family and women's obligation to making the home a stable environment. '''I think that the issue of divorce and the effect it has on a single mother is still an issue today. But Marshner is very narrow minded by stating that traditional values work best. She is stuck in the white middle class ideal and fails to acknowledge that many successful families no longer operate by traditional manner.''' -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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== Planned Parenthood versus Casey, 1992 ==<br />
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'''Planned Parenthood v Casey seems to be probably the most complicated court case ever decided.''' I read the whole decision, not just the part in the textbook (and I've read outside readings on it), and it seems like '''Casey concludes two things, and then applies them in different ways. 1) Roe v. Wade should be upheld, not because it was a correct decision, but because of ''stare decisis,'' the "rule" that the Court has to stick with what it said before; and, 2) some regulations on abortion are fine, but when they pose an undue burden to abortion they are illegal.<br />
I won't take a stance on abortion, but the ''stare decisis'' rational seems crazy to me.''' It seems like a few judges (including or limited to Blackmum) decided that Roe was correct, and O'Connor, Kennedy, and Souter decided that Roe was wrong, but the Court should uphold it lest there seem to be instability in the law. Casey acknowledges "the interest of the State in the protection of potential life" which seems to be a repudiation of Roe on all but technical grounds. It seems unjust to me to uphold a law purely because the Supreme Court isn't allowed to admit it was wrong.<br />
The undue burden standard seems somewhat rational to me, but only as a political compromise which the Court isn't supposed to do. In reading PP v Casey I can't find a single legal rationale for the undue burden standard, it seems completely arbitrary. It also seems like in many instances the Court is making law, not adjudicating it, and making it in a very vague fashion. The Court decided requirements for parental consent, informed decision, and 24 hour waiting periods were undue burdens, but spousal notification was not. Although I agree very much with at least the rational behind the last one, this sounds like something that should be debated by elected officials, not lifetime judges. <br />
Also, I think the subdecision on parental consent proves the arbitrariness of the entire undue burden standard. If parents have a complete yes/no veto option over whether an abortion can happen, it seems like that's an undue burden, yet the Court ruled it was not. The legal argument that sometimes parents' rights come before some rights doesn't work, because if that's true than the right to abortion isn't ''fundamental,'' and Roe should have been overturned. Something is wrong with the legal system when justices form alliances to carve out politically biased, legally contradictory chunks of law.<br />
'''I guess I don't understand why Roe v. Wade attracts so much attention these days, it seems like PP v Casey is much more relevant now, and a much more controversial (and legally questionable) decision.''' -- Matt Struth<br />
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== Gloria Anzaldua soeakes about her identity, 1999 ==<br />
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== Asma Gull Hasan, Pakistani-American, 2000 ==<br />
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I learned a lot this week in the reading about "First- and Second- Generation Immigrant Women Speak of Living Inbetween Cultures," particularly about Asma Gull Hasan. I learned a great deal about the Muslim culture from her reading that I had only assumed before from the skewed material I've seen from the news. I did not realize that the Qur'an gave women that kind of status and honored them as much as they did. It really was an interesting reading and a learning experience at the same time! --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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== Kyoko Mori, Japanese-American, 2000 ==<br />
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== Jamala McFadden’s Story of 1990s Welfare Assistance, 2002 ==<br />
This is a "feel good story". I love hearing about women beating the odds,for an education, with children no less. '''Welfare made a difference in McFadden's life because she had drive and ambition and used government assistance to better her life. This is what assistance if for. Too often we hear of people misusing welfare therefore giving a stereotype to its recipients.''' McFadden spoke of the changes made in the welfare system while she was still in college. She said she was lucky to be "grandfathered" in. I do feel that daycare assistance should be offered to women attending college. To me, this would be money better spent than on women who have a minimum wage jobs. The thought would be like McFadden, these education seeking women would break the chain. --Nikole Wellman<br />
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== Rebecca Walker on the 3rd Wave, 2005 ==<br />
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== Ms.Magazine on 5 rights women could lose, 2005 ==<br />
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Well, this is a frightening thought, however, if this was to happen.... move over Betty Friedan. We will have to make room in the history books for a new set of radicals. This country is not ready for the "Girl Power" we all have. <br />
In all seriousness, These rights will never be taken away. Fist of all, we may just have our first women President in office. There are too many women in powerful positions to loose these five rights Ms. Magazines speaks of. People such as Hillary Clinton, my mother-in-law, Dr. M and myself would not take women take a step back. Before taking this class, I really had no idea how far we've come....We've come too far to go back--Nikole Wellman<br />
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'''The problem with Nikole's statement is that the Supreme Court bases their decisions on how they interpret the Constitution, and not public opinion. I agree that there would be great public outcry if women did lose their rights to reproductive privacy, affirmative action, protection against gender-based discrimination, family and medical leave, and quality health-care services, but that wouldn't stop the court's decision, nor would it over-rule or overturn it.''' So I do believe that there is a danger to lose such rights depending upon the views of the Justices and their rulings in future cases. I also believe that it is unlikely that the last four will be lost soon, but the '''Roe v. Wade is extremely controversial, and may be overturned.''' The current administration is certainly against it, but then, the current administration is also about to leave. - Sarah H.<br />
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I agree with Nikole, we have gone too far to go back now. I don't see how we could possibly lose any of these rights, I think that too many people would put up a fight if it were to happen. It amazed me at how close these Supreme Court decision were to going the other way. At this time I don't see how it could be possible for someone to not allow a women to take leave for a new baby or to care for a sick family member. At the same time all of this is a little scary that with just a change is members of the Supreme Court and a new case brought forth all of this could change. I just hope that I never have to see the day. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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Well, I think that some of these rights are endanger (if that is the word for it). I mean, I am not sure how I feel about it, but I think there is an agreement to made both for and against Affirmative Action and Protection Against Gender-Based Discrimination. Will society ever reach such a progressive point that we won't need separate laws? If so... when? - Cat Debelius<br />
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As far as gender based discrimination goes I read an interesting article about 6 months ago (of which i do not remember all the specifics) about how dental and medical schools in North Carolina were trying to seperate themselves from the public funded university and become private, so that they would not be controlled by qoutas set by the state. The reason they want to move away from these qoutas is so they don't have to accept as many women to their schools. '''I believe their reasoning was that professional women tend to work on average less than 15 years, while men work on average over 40 years. Apparently because of the high number of women that had been accepted to the dental and medical schools in the state, North Carolina had a shortage of dentists.''' Just something to think about - Landon Davis<br />
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Also, I think the other rights will remain protected. Men benefit from most of these rights as much as the women do. I am sure there would be plenty of distraught men if the right to sexual privacy got taken away. Also the rights dealing with familial leave and and quality health services would seem to help men just as much as the women. '''The affirmative action and the gender based discrimination rights are the only two that men have nothing to gain (from a selfish point of view) from.''' --Landon Davis<br />
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'''I disagree with Landon on his point that men have nothing to gain on the affirmative action point. Example: UMW. We have a skewed gender ratio in our student population, something like 70% female to 30% male. The school is actively trying to get more male students, so that if they're looking at two students who have the same GPA and SAT scores, they're probably more likely to choose the male student over the female.''' It annoyed me when I was waiting to hear if I got accepted to Mary Wash that a guy in my class asked if I had gotten in yet, because he had. When I said I hadn't heard yet, he told me that because he was a guy, he was more likely to get in than me anyway. I got my acceptance letter later that week, but it really made me mad to hear him say that. The fact that he was smirking at me while saying it probably didn't help. So affirmative action doesn't mean that men have nothing to gain. Sometimes they do gain benefits. - Sarah H.<br />
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== US, 565-586 – Rebecca Tsosie, “Changing Women: The Crosscurrents of American Indian Female Identity.”—1988 ==<br />
Prior to reading Rebecca Tsosie's essay "Changing Women: The Crosscurrents of American Indian Feminine Identity," I had never known Native American literature to be so profoundly developed. After reading the article, I definitely have a deep respect for the Native American literature genre. Maybe I will read some of it someday.--Justin Mattos<br />
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Like Justin, I too never realized just how developed the Native American literature was... and it feels silly for it to just now be dawning on me from the stories I have read related to Native Americans and the stories, songs, poems, et cetera that were mentioned in the stories/articles. I wonder why we don't have more of the Native American literature in public school... we seem to have so much in the way of English and American.... --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I agree with Justin, I never realized the extent of Native American literature out there. I have read some picture books that were designed to teach lessons to children, but other than that it never really occurred to me to look to see what else was there. '''I also too was curious as to why we don't see more of this genre of literature in schools. We have so many varieties of literature in the schools, why not include a few more?''' --Kellye Sorber<br />
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“Changing Women…” by Rebecca Tsosie discusses the stereotypes that have been created about Indian women through literature and the media. On page 567 she states that '''“The princess/squaw dichotomy does not even approach the historical realities of Indian women…the primary factor in perceptions of both European women and Indian women became their definition in terms of their relationship with males.” I see her point, but it’s not something that’s special to Indian women. Stereotypes are developed and portrayed for almost any other type of way you can classify a person.''' In one of the first few weeks of class we read about how the views of Spanish-Mexican women were stereotyped and romanticized through the image that Barceló created for herself… --Jessica Kilday<br />
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MAW, Chapters 11-13<br />
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== Cathy Tuley, “Clerical Workers Unite,” 1976. ==<br />
'''Cathy Tuley's involvement in organizing clerical workers helped her personal development by becoming more assertive and self-reliant in the workplace.''' She refers to utilizing this new found assertiveness in her personal life saying "Sometimes it's kind of rough when you do that to your husband! 'Give me the fact,' you know. 'Prove what you just said.'" '''This made me think that their was a duality that women had to play between work and home. In work she could be somewhat assertive (depending on her position), and in the home she was expected to remain a subservient role to the man of the house.'''--LisaM<br />
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This piece had some parallels to my own work experience. '''So many workers, whether it is in the public school system of northern Virginia or in the constraints of a company like Sodexho, are not aware of their rights. ''' A '''worker does not have to be in the clerical field to experience mistreatment and abuse of power by their bosses. But from what I can tell, so many workers are so afraid that they will lose their job, that they don't protest, they don't try to find out more about their rights,and thus are stuck in an unhappy situation.''' I am glad there has been women like Cathy, and although this piece is from over 30 years ago, things have not changed that much. ~Juliann Boyles<br />
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== Crystal Lee Sutton, “The Real ‘Norma Rae’ Tells Her Story,” 1986. ==<br />
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Reading "The Real 'Norma Rae' Tells her Story" by Crystal Lee Sutton sure does bring back memories. I remember the first time I dealt with someone like that and coming up with well-reasoned arguments and everything in an attempt to persuade them. It's weird, when someone is not doing what they are supposed to do, why would they actually extend to you common courtesies like honesty. It really doesn't make any sense.--Justin Mattos<br />
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'''I think it was great that the man JB Younts was so supportive for her to go to the Union meeting and possible join. It seems that the more support Lee got the more she fought for the Union. Did many women make a similar stand to how Lee did?''' –Ashley Scutari<br />
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'''I loved this essay. That certainly was a plucky lady. It's well written in a way that, I could almost picture the Big Bossman, grossly overweight, puffing a cigar, trying to intimidate her with his Southern drawl. I can cast his part! She stood up to him, and then had the guts to stand up on a table with a "Union" sign! Cool! ''' Phil Novalski.<br />
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I think was a very powerful piece, that really drew attention to the fact that even though women had made strides in labor laws via federal legislation, there were some places where such things didn't matter. By the way the Wagner Act was in place in 1935, but in 1973 unions were still outlawed in most southern companies. As was the way with segregation - the south and their notion of states rights - bah! And it took 5 years for Norma Rae to get her job back, after losing it only by acting within her Constitutional rights? '''I wonder how labor laws are in the South today.''' ~Juliann Boyles<br />
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== Susan Eisenberg, “Hard-Hatted Women,” 1988. ==<br />
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I thought the "Hard-hatted Women" essay in MAW was amazing! '''To learn that she became an electrician and managed to hide her pregnancy for 6 months before finally going on maternity-type leaving was just incredible!''' I was sad that she had a miscarriage, but was really impressed with how her co-workers supported her. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I understand fully how Eisenberg felt. I found out I was pregnant with my my second son, Nathan, the week before 9/11. We lived in the NJ/NY area at the time and EVERYONE was in fear of loosing their jobs. '''My fear went a step further thinking if anyone would loose their jobs it would be me. I kept my pregnancy to myself for a while.''' Then I got over my new hormonal state and dared anyone to discriminate against me. Unlike Eisenberg, I was not in the construction industry and It was 2002. --Nikole Wellman<br />
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I appreciate your comment Nicole. This lady was very impressive. I can only empathize with your fears. '''Imagine how she must have felt, a pregnant woman on a construction site in the late 1970s? It's good that she did foster some better relationships with co-workers during subsequent pregnancies. Some of the insensitve remarks from her male co-workers were really nasty, but not surprising to me.''' I worked in trades and roofing some years ago. The thing to remember about men, is that at the end of the day, most of us are insecure little boys who still like to talk about sounds that emanate from our bodies, watch the Three Stooges hit each other with hard objects and laugh out loud, and still like to gawk and make immature noises at attractive women who walk by a work site... we really can't help ourselves as to our simple-mindedness in these areas and really don't mean anything by it. - Phil Novalski.<br />
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== Jessie Lopez De La Cruz, “Organizing the Farm Workers,” 1980 ==<br />
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== Johnnie Tillmon, “Women on Welfare,” 1972 ==<br />
The movie "Claudine" starring James Earl Jones and Diahann Carroll presents some of the issues raised in "Women on Welfare" by Johnnie Tillmon. When I saw it a few years ago, I remember thinking about how typically 70's it seemed. True it was released in '74, but what I mean is that it seemed to depict exactly what it meant to be black in the 1970's. Has anyone else seen it?--Justin Mattos<br />
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'''I do not agree with the A.F.D.C that if a man is in the house, then the family cannot be supplied by welfare. As Johnnie stated, the man could not have a job and be living in the house; therefore he still cannot support his children. Welfare should be for any family that is financial unstable. Has much of the welfare requirements changed since then?''' <br />
–Ashley Scutari<br />
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"Welfare is a basic right of citizenship," and "housewives should get a legally determined percentage of their husbands income"????? They call this SOCIALISM. '''While acknowledging that our free-market ideology creates many inequities, these aren't answers either!''' Ms. Tillman obviously was not an economics major. It's like you guys on campus trying to get a living wage for the groundskeepers. Nice sentiment, won't work too well. Do you understand, that '''if everyone gets paid a LIVING WAGE for every job, then inflation kicks in, and the value of your $35,000 per year entry-level jobs after you graduate is NIL.''' Do you really believe its fair, as many are suggesting, that the UMW groundskeepers, janitorial staff, Johnnie Tillman's housewives, and everyone else, now would get a federally mandated minimum wage above the poverty line, say, $30,000 for a family of four? How do you feel now about working to get a degree and only earning a fraction more? Might as well have skipped college! - Phil Novalski.<br />
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'''Phil has a point, not all of Johnnie's points were practical, but I just liked her. ''' I liked her spirit and she made some very good arguments against the common myths of welfare, such as "having babies for profit is a lie that only men could make up and only men could believe." Unfortunately like most things, the people that are quick to condemn it are the people who don't understand it. '''And as Johnnie said, most of the people at that time in the country receiving welfare were women. Johnnie also addressed a large perception in this country that people on welfare are lazy, and they should just get a job and stop free riding off the hard earned money of other Americans, but as she effectively pointed out, sometimes, they just can't. Sometimes you just need a little help, and as a citizen, it is the government's job to ensure every citizen's welfare, no pun intended.''' ~Juliann Boyles<br />
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== Mariah Burton Nelson, “Sex and Sports” – 1994 ==<br />
'''I realize it is the point of the view of the author, but I honestly never thought there were so many lesbians in women sports leagues. I just never associated the two.''' Sure, I've heard other people associate women sports stars and lesbianism, but I never took them seriously. Wow, that's interesting.--Justin Mattos<br />
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I too was surprised to learn about how many women in sports were actually lesbians in this article. I had never heard anything ever reported on it. I did know that women fought hard to get recognition like the men did in their sorts. I remember watching a show on the women's US soccer team and how they fought for better pay like the male US soccer team as well as how Mia Hamm (sp?) was the one who helped them get that recoginition by doing the Pert shampoo commercials. '''Even when I think about it today, how many womens sports are actually on TV, I can think of plenty of male sports, like football, baseball, basketball, but women the only one or two I can think of is golf, and I think basketball, I could be wrong on that one though.'''--Michelle M.<br />
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'''This did not surprise me at all,''' I know of many female athletes that are lesbians. It was something that growing up with a sister in sports that my family really started to hear of all the lesbians out there. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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I was also not surprised by this article. I think the reason most people are shocked by this information is because women sports are not covered to the same extent that men's sports are. '''Professional male athletes are idolized and hero-worshiped so when they are homosexual it becomes a really big deal. Professional female athletes however are no where near as popular so their sexuality is not as big a factor.''' - Christine W.<br />
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In the introduction to this article it talked about how mens' sports receive 92% of all TV coverage and 81% of all newspaper coverage. The tone of the article seemed to suggest that this was in some way unfair, or that it was somehow based in sexism. '''Really, I think this has nothing to do with sexism. Male sports just sell better, from my experience they are more exciting to watch, and they obviously draw a larger audience of both male and female viewers alike. So I think that this is based more in business sense than it is in sexism.''' -- Landon Davis<br />
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As a girl who once played Field Hockey and loves to watch sports, I agree with Landon, its not that the TVs air more male sports due to sexism but because they are more popular and fun to watch. People like to see action not saying women's sports are not action packed but, men's sports allow physical contact and speed, which is something that viewers like. '''From my personal experience I love football and lacrosse, two sports that are action packed, with the physical contact, speed and the skill work. Just because men;s sports are aired more doesn't mean that it has to do with sexism, its just the general population prefers to watch male athletics.''' -- Amanda Taub<br />
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== Marissa Navarro, “Becoming La Mujer” – 1998 ==<br />
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== Nancy Mairs, “Women and Disabilities” – 1986 ==<br />
I found the Why me? Why not? portion of "Women and Disabilities" by Nancy Mairs to be fairly interesting. --Justin Mattos<br />
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I found myself able to relate to this reading because when I was in middle school my Mom was diagnosed with MS. And I honestly have to say that if my mom hadn't been my hero before, she definitely is now. However, '''unlike Nancy Mairs my mother would never call herself a cripple, or at least I've never heard her do so, and I believe that this is largely because of the fact that the term cripple makes it sound like you can't do something, and lord help you if you ever tell my mother she can't do something.''' So I think that one of the reasons that this story stood out to me the most is because I've seen this first hand, yes my Mom can't do half the things she used to be able to do, but she refuses to let it depress her, she's always fighting to keep going and keep walking, but at the same time she does face things that others don't, such as a difficulty getting up and down stairs, which makes it hard for her to do some of the things she used to do. '''Though I did find it interesting that disabilities weren't talked about much until the 80s.''' -Elizabeth Frank<br />
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== Abra Fortune Chernik, “The Voice of an Anorexic” – 1995 ==<br />
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'''This story really saddened me, because of how this girl viewed her self for so long'''. I was just glad that it had a happy ending, and that she was lucky enough to have survived as long as she did with this disease. This article just goes to prove that every time period through out the history of women there is an expected stereotype that is portrayed in culture and especially media like for this woman. For example during WWII media portrayed women as working to help to the counry but as soon as the men returned home they were happy to go back to being house wives, which in many cases wasn't true. For Abra Chernik, magazines of pretty skinny models was the new portrait of women, and '''often still is today.'''--Michelle M.<br />
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== Eve Ensler, “The Vagina Monologues” – 1997 ==<br />
I have heard of "the Vagina Monologues" and I've even seen parts of it, but I never realized how much Ensler had actually been through herself. Being raped when you're such a young girl is traumatic and the fact that she took that and turned it into something positive is empowering. ''' And I agree with her and her theory about the word "vagina." Even today people have a hard time saying the actual word when referencing female (and male) genatalia and they usually use other words or nicknames. It's kind of sad, actually, that even after having sexual education classes and making sure that students today know the parts of the body, people are still so scared to use the real words.''' Yes, there are publications and television shows and broadway plays that occasionally use the real words, but if you listen to those scripts as well and read those articles you'll notice that other words or phrases normally replace the actual word (unless it's a medical journal, of course.) That's where slang starts. It just goes to show, I guess, that some mind sets never change. --Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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This really isn't a salient point, but I think it's all due to the fact that our country was founded by a bunch of prude puritans. :) - Sarah<br />
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Sorry I'm a little playful this week, but when Ms. Ensler mentions that her vagina represents her "second heart," I can only hope that some of the proceeds of her provacative and very popular script is going to a therapist. '''In the sake of fair play,''' when will UMW hold a PENIS Week, or "P" week? After all, I think the school is about 30% guys. I wonder what penises would say to one another. Would they drink beer and watch sports like the rest of us? - Phil Novalski. (On a serious note - her cause is a great one. PN.)<br />
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== Susan Faludi, “The Backlash Against Feminism” – 1991 ==<br />
I thought it was interesting to read “The Backlash against Feminism” by Susan Faludi. '''In it, she points out that even though politicians and the media are continually boasting that women have indeed reached equality and every opportunity is open to them, there is another front that these people are overlooking, and that is emotional. Women still face continual pressure by the media to conform to what is expected of them. As a result there are increasing stories, such as the one by Abra Chernik, of “stress-induced disorders.”''' It seems as though we are now entering a time where''' ''politics may not influence a woman’s limitations in society as much as popular culture.''''' --Jessica Kilday<br />
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== Anita Hill, “A Woman of Conscience” – 1991 ==<br />
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I chose to write on this topic because after I read Anita Hill's testimony, I asked myself how this would affect my vote if I had one. I'm torn, because it seems like it should be impossible to elect someone to the Supreme Court who is guilty of serial sexual harassment, but at the same time, it seems wrong to deny a candidacy based on entirely non-falsifiable testimony. My gut says Anita Hill was right, and that seems to be supported by outside sources (such as a Hill-basher who later admitted he was lying, labeling himself "part of the Republican propaganda machine" and a "Conservative hitman"), but in other situations, how do you make a decision like this? -- Matt Struth<br />
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== Katie Roiphe, “Date Rape: Hysteria or Epidemic?” – 1991 ==<br />
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I had mixed feelings about this reading. '''I had never thought that the very concept of date rape could enforce the traditional stereotyped sexual roles that women always had of being the ones who don't want sex when men did. However, I also feel like Katie Roiphe, while she has good points, ignores the possibility that some of these women really didn't want sex with these men and instead she seems to have the idea that these women were using the cry of rape to excuse their sexual behaviour.''' While in some cases this might be true, I highly doubt this is the majority. -Elizabeth Frank<br />
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Frankly this reading upset me and I disagree with Roiphe. '''I don't think that society or women use the term rape too lightly.''' I do think that '''cultural ideals do send messages to women that they shouldn't act sexual and when they do they should be ashamed of their actions. I believe that this is the issue that really needs to be addressed.''' The reality is that women are taken advantage of but '''men are taken advantage of as well'''. Rape is not one way and too often men are embarressed to admit being pressured into sexual situations because of their gender expectations. Roiphe's generalizing views are not really important when you take rape cases individually, because it's not as simple as "I went on a date and it resulted in sex and it was his fault because I was helpless." Not everyone lived through the same "date rape" situation and if they perceived they had been violated by another then their word should stand. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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Meredith brings up a good point. This is one situation where the sexual double standard actually hurts men. If a guy wakes up the next morning and realizes he slept with someone he did not want to, all he can really call it is a mistake. If a guy woke up and claimed that a girl raped him he would be laughed at (at least by the gentleman i know). '''I think now-a-days the biggest problem concerning date rape has to be alcohol''', i bet very rarely does a sober date rape incident occur. -- Landon Davis<br />
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Elizabeth, Meredith and Landon all bring up excellent points. The article did put me off a bit. Date rape education (and repoting) should be encouraged. I don't think women "like" to report being raped. I just read testimony in the paper yesterday from a girl at Annapolis that was raped by a fellow cadet and you could feel her pain coming out. '''I think rape is likely still very much an underreported crime.''' Landon's point about alcohol likely being involved quite often in date rape situations (especially on campuses) is a good one. - Phil Novalski<br />
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== Christine Hoff Sommers, “Who Stole Feminism?” – 1994 ==<br />
'''"What has real feminism to do with sitting around in circles talking about our feelings and menstruation?" HAHAHA. First of all, I'd like to say that Ms. Hoff seems a little bitter about the way women's studies classes are being taught. That said, I think she does raise a valid concern. Most people today (women and men alike) hear the word "feminist" and a negative connotation is automatically thrown with it.''' Forget the fact that you do not have to be a bra-burning, man-hating, same-sex-loving hippie to be a feminist. Forget the fact that you can be a strong, independent, normal girl and be a feminist. Instead, most people hear "feminist" and automatically throw that first connotation right onto it, and men who admit to being feminists are normally mocked which is a shame. Unlike our dear author, I thought the rules that one class presents to it's students at the beginning of the semester was a fantastic idea. It forces the student to enter the class with an open mind and realize that feminism was a movement fighting oppression just like most other movements. One has to go into the class and acknowledge that oppression exists and that you have to respect your classmate's rights. I disagree with her statement that "anything said in the classroom should be repeatable outside." Yes, I believe that students should not be ashamed to speak their opinion, but when discussing such a tough topic, the fact that someone is voicing their opinion should be enough. If they don't want that repeated outside the walls of their classroom, they shouldn't have to worry about it. I believe it teaches students to respect and trust one another. '''To be honest, our dear Ms. Hoff kind of bugged me.''' --Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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== United States v. Virginia (1996), “Equal Protection Under the Law” [VMI case] – 1996 ==<br />
'''The Supreme Court case United States v. Virginia is probably the case that I am most passionate about because it literally hits home.''' I was born and raised in Lexington, home of Virginia Military Institute, and both my father and my brother graduated from VMI. Hearing the stories my dad tells about the Old Corps and witnessing my brother going through Hell Week and the Ratline, I came to understand how physically, mentally, emotionally, and academically demanding VMI is...or once was. Even though I was all of ten years old when this case was decided, I was against VMI being forced to admit women. I had a feeling that things would only become worse...and I was right. For the past two summers, I have gone to VMI for summer school, (which you do not have to be a cadet to attend) and I have taken classes with some of the female cadets that do attend VMI. I will be the first to admit that I am not the smartest woman in the world, but in a freshman level World History class that I took, we were asked to read aloud from the textbook, and honest to God, these girls could barely read! Not only that, but many of them were obviously not in top physical condition. I always heard my brother talking about how horrible the "shedets" were, but now I saw it with my own eyes. Because of United States v. Virginia, VMI was basically forced to lower its standards and accept any female applicants, regardless of their scholastic aptitude or physical prowess. Granted, I do know a select few female cadets who do exceed the academic and physical qualifications that the school lays out, and they have risen to prominent positions in the Corps, but an overwhelming majority of female cadets are not like this. '''So which is worse - not having females at a state supported school that has been an all-male school since its inception, or having to significantly lower standards of acceptance just so sub-par females can attend the school in the name of equality?''' VMI has had to make so many changes and sacrifices in order for women to attend. Barracks had to be renovated so that females could live there, and traditions like Hell Week, sweat parties, and other Ratline activities had to be modified to accommodate women. If the women who attended VMI after the case was decided really wanted things to be equal, then they would have attended the school under the rules of the Old Corps. They did not. Even with the relaxed physical and academic regulations for women, out of the approximately one hundred women who start the Ratline in August, probably only twenty have what it takes to make it through Hell Week, and the numbers tend to diminish after that. The fact that VMI has been forced to lower its standards to accommodate females has really lowered its reputation in the minds of both alumni and current cadets. It is not the same school my father went to, and now he jokingly says that the VMI my brother attended was a country club. '''The men that attend VMI today have been forced to sacrifice the experiences that the alumni had in the Old Corps...how is that for unequal?''' -Marilyn<br />
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== Jennifer Baumgardner and Amy Richards, “A Third Wave Feminist Manifesta” – 2000 ==<br />
'''I LOVED the Third Wave Feminist Manifesta. To me, that is what feminism is all about, and that is what women today should be striving for. This is a manifesta for feminists our age and I believe that every point they raise is important. There is nothing outrageous about any of their plans and, in my opinion and as cheesy as this sounds, the list looks to make the world a better place for women. Everything from Point number 1 about outing unacknowledged feminists to point number 13 about passing the Equal Rights Amendment is important (one I love being point number 10 because I hate the demeaning nicknames 12 year olds use for each other these days.) It's a well thought out manifesta and it's kind of scary how much this applies to us. They're talking to our generation and it's just weird to see where the feminist movement has gone since the second wave movement in the 1960s and 1970s.''' --Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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== Charlotte Bunch, “Global Feminism” – 1995 [at the UN Beijing Women’s Conference] ==<br />
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== Gloria Anzaldua, “The Borderlands” – 1987 ==<br />
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Wow, the head chef of the Roosevelt Hotel in New York City doesn't seem to be that prestigious, if Velma James's 1976 photograph "A Day in the Kitchen" means anything. --Justin Mattos<br />
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It was kind of strange seeing the photo of Marion Jones in the book.--Justin Mattos<br />
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Must have been strange being a Stanford graduate with a degree in psychology and being asked to go to charm school.--Justin Mattos</div>Lmeissnerhttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_14_Questions/Comments328--Week 14 Questions/Comments2008-04-24T12:19:34Z<p>Lmeissner: /* Roe v. Wade Decision (both Blackmun’s majority ruling and White’s dissent). */</p>
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<div>== Overarching comments ==<br />
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I just have a general comment. '''It was surprising to me how recent some of these essays were dated. I guess I never thought of this time period as very relevant or active for women's rights... because I guess it is!''' I mean I would definitely describe myself as a feminists, but I guess I kind of feel that in this day and age... '''doesn't every women in my age bracket feel like a feminist? Are there actually people in the younger generation today that are advocating for women to be defined by their role of mother and that is it?''' I think it is great if a women chooses to stay home with her family, but really i just think ti is great if a women chooses whatever makes her happy, no matter what that is. Do all people in this generation not feel this way?- Cat Debelius<br />
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To answer Cat's question, no not everyone in this generation feels that way. There are still debutants in the South who go to school to find a husband and take classes to be good housewives. '''I also had some girls on my floor freshman year who were forming a housewives club to learn how to cook and clean and be good housewives.''' - Chrisitne W.<br />
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MP, 459-469, 506-524<br />
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== Roe v. Wade Decision (both Blackmun’s majority ruling and White’s dissent). ==<br />
I'll take the first whack, since nobody else is touching this yet. First let me say, that a woman's body is her own and should be fully respected. Justice Blackmun mentions the 14th Amendment not recognizing a fetus as a person. This is technically and legally correct. That being said, technology now gives us more information, which perhaps can make choices for women even more difficult. The abortion argument has centered, for quite some time, on one question: When does life begin? At conception, when a fetus is considered viable (22-24 weeks approximately) or at full term. This has been the subject of much debate. The most difficult part of the equation is the inherent EMOTION that will always be involved in this debate, whether one is pro-choice or pro-life. ''' A big part ot the problem also is the extreme rhetoric used by both sides''' - example. - Pro-lifers screaming "baby Killers" at Planned Parenhood workers; Pro-choice women insisting that their bodies are essentially theirs and theirs alone, even though a 20 week old fetus is kicking her belly, and a 30 week old fetus can make her foot or hand visible on a mother's belly! Unfortunately, common sense in America rarely prevails. RU 486 is still a restricted drug. A pregnancy terminated in the first several weeks, I have no moral qualms with. However, I have to confess to this: I have attended over a dozen fetal ultrasound sessions with my wife, at least two for each of my children, the last many because of a prenatal problem. As of our last child (2006), Ultrasound technology could detect a visible FETAL HEARTBEAT at six to seven weeks gestation. The heartrate is over 150 beats per minute, and resembles a very quickly twinkling star, or almost like a twinkle light on a Christmas tree. Sorry to get emotional, but at this point, this IS A LIFE. At least as far as my wife and I were concerned, we were then charged with the responsiblity of protecting that life however we could. For my wife, it meant taking good care of herself and refraining from alcohol and reducing caffeine intake. For me, it meant stepping up the pace on my end with housework, taking out the cat litter all the time (toxic for pregnant women) and being patient when crying jags and nesting urges kicked in for my better half. But it was all worth it! - Phil Novalski<br />
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I have to agree with Phil on the first several weeks part. At that point, the fetus is really nothing but a bunch of dividing cells. '''I honestly don't know how I feel about abortion.''' I think that it is important to be able to allow women who are fatally at risk to be able to have them, but I have some issues with the way some people use and treat abortion. The main problem that I have is when people use it as a form of birth control. When my mother first started working as a nurse, a woman called for a nurse to help her out of the bathroom. She assisted the lady, and then went back to flush the toilet for her. There was a bloody fetus in the toilet bowl. Needless to say, my mother freaked out. The nurses who had been there longer told her that that woman comes in every several months and has an abortion, and that she used it as birth control. Now, I know that this is not the norm, or at least I hope not, but instead of killing the child, take the care to prevent its conception first. - Sarah H.<br />
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There are no easy answers to this topic, but I don't think that one person has the right to dictate what a woman can or cannot do with her body. The original anti-abortion laws were written and maintained by men. Here comes a women's group saying that they have a right to control what happens with their bodies, and the Supreme Court validated that right with Roe vs. Wade. For every story where abortion seems inappropriate, there is probably a story of justification. Why do people think that reversing Roe vs. Wade will stop abortion? If you remember, women were aborting long before the decision at the risk of their health and life. If the decision is ever reversed, I would imagine that women will still seek out abortions.--LisaM<br />
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== Lindsey Van Gelder reports on “Women vs. the NY Times” in Ms. in 1978. ==<br />
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<br />
== Connaught Marshner explains what social conservatives really want, 1988. ==<br />
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I found this essay really interesting. '''I was shocked by how much this women feared divorce and female independence.''' Did she honestly think that women that were still "fulfilled" without a man around and raised children without a man in the house were actually ruining society? This was written in 1988!! - Cat Debelius<br />
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I agree with Cat, Marshner's opinions seem somewhat outdated today. But she also seems to be a product of Reagan and many popular opinion shifts of the 1980s. I think the increase in divorce rate as well as the family's decrease of importance "functions once served by the family are now provided by the government" brought about the resurfacing of issues like family and women's obligation to making the home a stable environment. '''I think that the issue of divorce and the effect it has on a single mother is still an issue today. But Marshner is very narrow minded by stating that traditional values work best. She is stuck in the white middle class ideal and fails to acknowledge that many successful families no longer operate by traditional manner.''' -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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== Planned Parenthood versus Casey, 1992 ==<br />
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'''Planned Parenthood v Casey seems to be probably the most complicated court case ever decided.''' I read the whole decision, not just the part in the textbook (and I've read outside readings on it), and it seems like '''Casey concludes two things, and then applies them in different ways. 1) Roe v. Wade should be upheld, not because it was a correct decision, but because of ''stare decisis,'' the "rule" that the Court has to stick with what it said before; and, 2) some regulations on abortion are fine, but when they pose an undue burden to abortion they are illegal.<br />
I won't take a stance on abortion, but the ''stare decisis'' rational seems crazy to me.''' It seems like a few judges (including or limited to Blackmum) decided that Roe was correct, and O'Connor, Kennedy, and Souter decided that Roe was wrong, but the Court should uphold it lest there seem to be instability in the law. Casey acknowledges "the interest of the State in the protection of potential life" which seems to be a repudiation of Roe on all but technical grounds. It seems unjust to me to uphold a law purely because the Supreme Court isn't allowed to admit it was wrong.<br />
The undue burden standard seems somewhat rational to me, but only as a political compromise which the Court isn't supposed to do. In reading PP v Casey I can't find a single legal rationale for the undue burden standard, it seems completely arbitrary. It also seems like in many instances the Court is making law, not adjudicating it, and making it in a very vague fashion. The Court decided requirements for parental consent, informed decision, and 24 hour waiting periods were undue burdens, but spousal notification was not. Although I agree very much with at least the rational behind the last one, this sounds like something that should be debated by elected officials, not lifetime judges. <br />
Also, I think the subdecision on parental consent proves the arbitrariness of the entire undue burden standard. If parents have a complete yes/no veto option over whether an abortion can happen, it seems like that's an undue burden, yet the Court ruled it was not. The legal argument that sometimes parents' rights come before some rights doesn't work, because if that's true than the right to abortion isn't ''fundamental,'' and Roe should have been overturned. Something is wrong with the legal system when justices form alliances to carve out politically biased, legally contradictory chunks of law.<br />
'''I guess I don't understand why Roe v. Wade attracts so much attention these days, it seems like PP v Casey is much more relevant now, and a much more controversial (and legally questionable) decision.''' -- Matt Struth<br />
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== Gloria Anzaldua soeakes about her identity, 1999 ==<br />
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== Asma Gull Hasan, Pakistani-American, 2000 ==<br />
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I learned a lot this week in the reading about "First- and Second- Generation Immigrant Women Speak of Living Inbetween Cultures," particularly about Asma Gull Hasan. I learned a great deal about the Muslim culture from her reading that I had only assumed before from the skewed material I've seen from the news. I did not realize that the Qur'an gave women that kind of status and honored them as much as they did. It really was an interesting reading and a learning experience at the same time! --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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== Kyoko Mori, Japanese-American, 2000 ==<br />
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== Jamala McFadden’s Story of 1990s Welfare Assistance, 2002 ==<br />
This is a "feel good story". I love hearing about women beating the odds,for an education, with children no less. '''Welfare made a difference in McFadden's life because she had drive and ambition and used government assistance to better her life. This is what assistance if for. Too often we hear of people misusing welfare therefore giving a stereotype to its recipients.''' McFadden spoke of the changes made in the welfare system while she was still in college. She said she was lucky to be "grandfathered" in. I do feel that daycare assistance should be offered to women attending college. To me, this would be money better spent than on women who have a minimum wage jobs. The thought would be like McFadden, these education seeking women would break the chain. --Nikole Wellman<br />
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== Rebecca Walker on the 3rd Wave, 2005 ==<br />
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== Ms.Magazine on 5 rights women could lose, 2005 ==<br />
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Well, this is a frightening thought, however, if this was to happen.... move over Betty Friedan. We will have to make room in the history books for a new set of radicals. This country is not ready for the "Girl Power" we all have. <br />
In all seriousness, These rights will never be taken away. Fist of all, we may just have our first women President in office. There are too many women in powerful positions to loose these five rights Ms. Magazines speaks of. People such as Hillary Clinton, my mother-in-law, Dr. M and myself would not take women take a step back. Before taking this class, I really had no idea how far we've come....We've come too far to go back--Nikole Wellman<br />
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'''The problem with Nikole's statement is that the Supreme Court bases their decisions on how they interpret the Constitution, and not public opinion. I agree that there would be great public outcry if women did lose their rights to reproductive privacy, affirmative action, protection against gender-based discrimination, family and medical leave, and quality health-care services, but that wouldn't stop the court's decision, nor would it over-rule or overturn it.''' So I do believe that there is a danger to lose such rights depending upon the views of the Justices and their rulings in future cases. I also believe that it is unlikely that the last four will be lost soon, but the '''Roe v. Wade is extremely controversial, and may be overturned.''' The current administration is certainly against it, but then, the current administration is also about to leave. - Sarah H.<br />
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I agree with Nikole, we have gone too far to go back now. I don't see how we could possibly lose any of these rights, I think that too many people would put up a fight if it were to happen. It amazed me at how close these Supreme Court decision were to going the other way. At this time I don't see how it could be possible for someone to not allow a women to take leave for a new baby or to care for a sick family member. At the same time all of this is a little scary that with just a change is members of the Supreme Court and a new case brought forth all of this could change. I just hope that I never have to see the day. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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Well, I think that some of these rights are endanger (if that is the word for it). I mean, I am not sure how I feel about it, but I think there is an agreement to made both for and against Affirmative Action and Protection Against Gender-Based Discrimination. Will society ever reach such a progressive point that we won't need separate laws? If so... when? - Cat Debelius<br />
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As far as gender based discrimination goes I read an interesting article about 6 months ago (of which i do not remember all the specifics) about how dental and medical schools in North Carolina were trying to seperate themselves from the public funded university and become private, so that they would not be controlled by qoutas set by the state. The reason they want to move away from these qoutas is so they don't have to accept as many women to their schools. '''I believe their reasoning was that professional women tend to work on average less than 15 years, while men work on average over 40 years. Apparently because of the high number of women that had been accepted to the dental and medical schools in the state, North Carolina had a shortage of dentists.''' Just something to think about - Landon Davis<br />
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Also, I think the other rights will remain protected. Men benefit from most of these rights as much as the women do. I am sure there would be plenty of distraught men if the right to sexual privacy got taken away. Also the rights dealing with familial leave and and quality health services would seem to help men just as much as the women. '''The affirmative action and the gender based discrimination rights are the only two that men have nothing to gain (from a selfish point of view) from.''' --Landon Davis<br />
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'''I disagree with Landon on his point that men have nothing to gain on the affirmative action point. Example: UMW. We have a skewed gender ratio in our student population, something like 70% female to 30% male. The school is actively trying to get more male students, so that if they're looking at two students who have the same GPA and SAT scores, they're probably more likely to choose the male student over the female.''' It annoyed me when I was waiting to hear if I got accepted to Mary Wash that a guy in my class asked if I had gotten in yet, because he had. When I said I hadn't heard yet, he told me that because he was a guy, he was more likely to get in than me anyway. I got my acceptance letter later that week, but it really made me mad to hear him say that. The fact that he was smirking at me while saying it probably didn't help. So affirmative action doesn't mean that men have nothing to gain. Sometimes they do gain benefits. - Sarah H.<br />
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== US, 565-586 – Rebecca Tsosie, “Changing Women: The Crosscurrents of American Indian Female Identity.”—1988 ==<br />
Prior to reading Rebecca Tsosie's essay "Changing Women: The Crosscurrents of American Indian Feminine Identity," I had never known Native American literature to be so profoundly developed. After reading the article, I definitely have a deep respect for the Native American literature genre. Maybe I will read some of it someday.--Justin Mattos<br />
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Like Justin, I too never realized just how developed the Native American literature was... and it feels silly for it to just now be dawning on me from the stories I have read related to Native Americans and the stories, songs, poems, et cetera that were mentioned in the stories/articles. I wonder why we don't have more of the Native American literature in public school... we seem to have so much in the way of English and American.... --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I agree with Justin, I never realized the extent of Native American literature out there. I have read some picture books that were designed to teach lessons to children, but other than that it never really occurred to me to look to see what else was there. '''I also too was curious as to why we don't see more of this genre of literature in schools. We have so many varieties of literature in the schools, why not include a few more?''' --Kellye Sorber<br />
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“Changing Women…” by Rebecca Tsosie discusses the stereotypes that have been created about Indian women through literature and the media. On page 567 she states that '''“The princess/squaw dichotomy does not even approach the historical realities of Indian women…the primary factor in perceptions of both European women and Indian women became their definition in terms of their relationship with males.” I see her point, but it’s not something that’s special to Indian women. Stereotypes are developed and portrayed for almost any other type of way you can classify a person.''' In one of the first few weeks of class we read about how the views of Spanish-Mexican women were stereotyped and romanticized through the image that Barceló created for herself… --Jessica Kilday<br />
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MAW, Chapters 11-13<br />
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== Cathy Tuley, “Clerical Workers Unite,” 1976. ==<br />
'''Cathy Tuley's involvement in organizing clerical workers helped her personal development by becoming more assertive and self-reliant in the workplace.''' She refers to utilizing this new found assertiveness in her personal life saying "Sometimes it's kind of rough when you do that to your husband! 'Give me the fact,' you know. 'Prove what you just said.'" '''This made me think that their was a duality that women had to play between work and home. In work she could be somewhat assertive (depending on her position), and in the home she was expected to remain a subservient role to the man of the house.'''--LisaM<br />
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This piece had some parallels to my own work experience. '''So many workers, whether it is in the public school system of northern Virginia or in the constraints of a company like Sodexho, are not aware of their rights. ''' A '''worker does not have to be in the clerical field to experience mistreatment and abuse of power by their bosses. But from what I can tell, so many workers are so afraid that they will lose their job, that they don't protest, they don't try to find out more about their rights,and thus are stuck in an unhappy situation.''' I am glad there has been women like Cathy, and although this piece is from over 30 years ago, things have not changed that much. ~Juliann Boyles<br />
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== Crystal Lee Sutton, “The Real ‘Norma Rae’ Tells Her Story,” 1986. ==<br />
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Reading "The Real 'Norma Rae' Tells her Story" by Crystal Lee Sutton sure does bring back memories. I remember the first time I dealt with someone like that and coming up with well-reasoned arguments and everything in an attempt to persuade them. It's weird, when someone is not doing what they are supposed to do, why would they actually extend to you common courtesies like honesty. It really doesn't make any sense.--Justin Mattos<br />
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'''I think it was great that the man JB Younts was so supportive for her to go to the Union meeting and possible join. It seems that the more support Lee got the more she fought for the Union. Did many women make a similar stand to how Lee did?''' –Ashley Scutari<br />
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'''I loved this essay. That certainly was a plucky lady. It's well written in a way that, I could almost picture the Big Bossman, grossly overweight, puffing a cigar, trying to intimidate her with his Southern drawl. I can cast his part! She stood up to him, and then had the guts to stand up on a table with a "Union" sign! Cool! ''' Phil Novalski.<br />
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I think was a very powerful piece, that really drew attention to the fact that even though women had made strides in labor laws via federal legislation, there were some places where such things didn't matter. By the way the Wagner Act was in place in 1935, but in 1973 unions were still outlawed in most southern companies. As was the way with segregation - the south and their notion of states rights - bah! And it took 5 years for Norma Rae to get her job back, after losing it only by acting within her Constitutional rights? '''I wonder how labor laws are in the South today.''' ~Juliann Boyles<br />
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== Susan Eisenberg, “Hard-Hatted Women,” 1988. ==<br />
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I thought the "Hard-hatted Women" essay in MAW was amazing! '''To learn that she became an electrician and managed to hide her pregnancy for 6 months before finally going on maternity-type leaving was just incredible!''' I was sad that she had a miscarriage, but was really impressed with how her co-workers supported her. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I understand fully how Eisenberg felt. I found out I was pregnant with my my second son, Nathan, the week before 9/11. We lived in the NJ/NY area at the time and EVERYONE was in fear of loosing their jobs. '''My fear went a step further thinking if anyone would loose their jobs it would be me. I kept my pregnancy to myself for a while.''' Then I got over my new hormonal state and dared anyone to discriminate against me. Unlike Eisenberg, I was not in the construction industry and It was 2002. --Nikole Wellman<br />
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I appreciate your comment Nicole. This lady was very impressive. I can only empathize with your fears. '''Imagine how she must have felt, a pregnant woman on a construction site in the late 1970s? It's good that she did foster some better relationships with co-workers during subsequent pregnancies. Some of the insensitve remarks from her male co-workers were really nasty, but not surprising to me.''' I worked in trades and roofing some years ago. The thing to remember about men, is that at the end of the day, most of us are insecure little boys who still like to talk about sounds that emanate from our bodies, watch the Three Stooges hit each other with hard objects and laugh out loud, and still like to gawk and make immature noises at attractive women who walk by a work site... we really can't help ourselves as to our simple-mindedness in these areas and really don't mean anything by it. - Phil Novalski.<br />
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== Jessie Lopez De La Cruz, “Organizing the Farm Workers,” 1980 ==<br />
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== Johnnie Tillmon, “Women on Welfare,” 1972 ==<br />
The movie "Claudine" starring James Earl Jones and Diahann Carroll presents some of the issues raised in "Women on Welfare" by Johnnie Tillmon. When I saw it a few years ago, I remember thinking about how typically 70's it seemed. True it was released in '74, but what I mean is that it seemed to depict exactly what it meant to be black in the 1970's. Has anyone else seen it?--Justin Mattos<br />
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'''I do not agree with the A.F.D.C that if a man is in the house, then the family cannot be supplied by welfare. As Johnnie stated, the man could not have a job and be living in the house; therefore he still cannot support his children. Welfare should be for any family that is financial unstable. Has much of the welfare requirements changed since then?''' <br />
–Ashley Scutari<br />
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"Welfare is a basic right of citizenship," and "housewives should get a legally determined percentage of their husbands income"????? They call this SOCIALISM. '''While acknowledging that our free-market ideology creates many inequities, these aren't answers either!''' Ms. Tillman obviously was not an economics major. It's like you guys on campus trying to get a living wage for the groundskeepers. Nice sentiment, won't work too well. Do you understand, that '''if everyone gets paid a LIVING WAGE for every job, then inflation kicks in, and the value of your $35,000 per year entry-level jobs after you graduate is NIL.''' Do you really believe its fair, as many are suggesting, that the UMW groundskeepers, janitorial staff, Johnnie Tillman's housewives, and everyone else, now would get a federally mandated minimum wage above the poverty line, say, $30,000 for a family of four? How do you feel now about working to get a degree and only earning a fraction more? Might as well have skipped college! - Phil Novalski.<br />
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'''Phil has a point, not all of Johnnie's points were practical, but I just liked her. ''' I liked her spirit and she made some very good arguments against the common myths of welfare, such as "having babies for profit is a lie that only men could make up and only men could believe." Unfortunately like most things, the people that are quick to condemn it are the people who don't understand it. '''And as Johnnie said, most of the people at that time in the country receiving welfare were women. Johnnie also addressed a large perception in this country that people on welfare are lazy, and they should just get a job and stop free riding off the hard earned money of other Americans, but as she effectively pointed out, sometimes, they just can't. Sometimes you just need a little help, and as a citizen, it is the government's job to ensure every citizen's welfare, no pun intended.''' ~Juliann Boyles<br />
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== Mariah Burton Nelson, “Sex and Sports” – 1994 ==<br />
'''I realize it is the point of the view of the author, but I honestly never thought there were so many lesbians in women sports leagues. I just never associated the two.''' Sure, I've heard other people associate women sports stars and lesbianism, but I never took them seriously. Wow, that's interesting.--Justin Mattos<br />
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I too was surprised to learn about how many women in sports were actually lesbians in this article. I had never heard anything ever reported on it. I did know that women fought hard to get recognition like the men did in their sorts. I remember watching a show on the women's US soccer team and how they fought for better pay like the male US soccer team as well as how Mia Hamm (sp?) was the one who helped them get that recoginition by doing the Pert shampoo commercials. '''Even when I think about it today, how many womens sports are actually on TV, I can think of plenty of male sports, like football, baseball, basketball, but women the only one or two I can think of is golf, and I think basketball, I could be wrong on that one though.'''--Michelle M.<br />
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'''This did not surprise me at all,''' I know of many female athletes that are lesbians. It was something that growing up with a sister in sports that my family really started to hear of all the lesbians out there. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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I was also not surprised by this article. I think the reason most people are shocked by this information is because women sports are not covered to the same extent that men's sports are. '''Professional male athletes are idolized and hero-worshiped so when they are homosexual it becomes a really big deal. Professional female athletes however are no where near as popular so their sexuality is not as big a factor.''' - Christine W.<br />
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In the introduction to this article it talked about how mens' sports receive 92% of all TV coverage and 81% of all newspaper coverage. The tone of the article seemed to suggest that this was in some way unfair, or that it was somehow based in sexism. '''Really, I think this has nothing to do with sexism. Male sports just sell better, from my experience they are more exciting to watch, and they obviously draw a larger audience of both male and female viewers alike. So I think that this is based more in business sense than it is in sexism.''' -- Landon Davis<br />
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As a girl who once played Field Hockey and loves to watch sports, I agree with Landon, its not that the TVs air more male sports due to sexism but because they are more popular and fun to watch. People like to see action not saying women's sports are not action packed but, men's sports allow physical contact and speed, which is something that viewers like. '''From my personal experience I love football and lacrosse, two sports that are action packed, with the physical contact, speed and the skill work. Just because men;s sports are aired more doesn't mean that it has to do with sexism, its just the general population prefers to watch male athletics.''' -- Amanda Taub<br />
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== Marissa Navarro, “Becoming La Mujer” – 1998 ==<br />
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== Nancy Mairs, “Women and Disabilities” – 1986 ==<br />
I found the Why me? Why not? portion of "Women and Disabilities" by Nancy Mairs to be fairly interesting. --Justin Mattos<br />
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I found myself able to relate to this reading because when I was in middle school my Mom was diagnosed with MS. And I honestly have to say that if my mom hadn't been my hero before, she definitely is now. However, '''unlike Nancy Mairs my mother would never call herself a cripple, or at least I've never heard her do so, and I believe that this is largely because of the fact that the term cripple makes it sound like you can't do something, and lord help you if you ever tell my mother she can't do something.''' So I think that one of the reasons that this story stood out to me the most is because I've seen this first hand, yes my Mom can't do half the things she used to be able to do, but she refuses to let it depress her, she's always fighting to keep going and keep walking, but at the same time she does face things that others don't, such as a difficulty getting up and down stairs, which makes it hard for her to do some of the things she used to do. '''Though I did find it interesting that disabilities weren't talked about much until the 80s.''' -Elizabeth Frank<br />
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== Abra Fortune Chernik, “The Voice of an Anorexic” – 1995 ==<br />
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'''This story really saddened me, because of how this girl viewed her self for so long'''. I was just glad that it had a happy ending, and that she was lucky enough to have survived as long as she did with this disease. This article just goes to prove that every time period through out the history of women there is an expected stereotype that is portrayed in culture and especially media like for this woman. For example during WWII media portrayed women as working to help to the counry but as soon as the men returned home they were happy to go back to being house wives, which in many cases wasn't true. For Abra Chernik, magazines of pretty skinny models was the new portrait of women, and '''often still is today.'''--Michelle M.<br />
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== Eve Ensler, “The Vagina Monologues” – 1997 ==<br />
I have heard of "the Vagina Monologues" and I've even seen parts of it, but I never realized how much Ensler had actually been through herself. Being raped when you're such a young girl is traumatic and the fact that she took that and turned it into something positive is empowering. ''' And I agree with her and her theory about the word "vagina." Even today people have a hard time saying the actual word when referencing female (and male) genatalia and they usually use other words or nicknames. It's kind of sad, actually, that even after having sexual education classes and making sure that students today know the parts of the body, people are still so scared to use the real words.''' Yes, there are publications and television shows and broadway plays that occasionally use the real words, but if you listen to those scripts as well and read those articles you'll notice that other words or phrases normally replace the actual word (unless it's a medical journal, of course.) That's where slang starts. It just goes to show, I guess, that some mind sets never change. --Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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This really isn't a salient point, but I think it's all due to the fact that our country was founded by a bunch of prude puritans. :) - Sarah<br />
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Sorry I'm a little playful this week, but when Ms. Ensler mentions that her vagina represents her "second heart," I can only hope that some of the proceeds of her provacative and very popular script is going to a therapist. '''In the sake of fair play,''' when will UMW hold a PENIS Week, or "P" week? After all, I think the school is about 30% guys. I wonder what penises would say to one another. Would they drink beer and watch sports like the rest of us? - Phil Novalski. (On a serious note - her cause is a great one. PN.)<br />
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== Susan Faludi, “The Backlash Against Feminism” – 1991 ==<br />
I thought it was interesting to read “The Backlash against Feminism” by Susan Faludi. '''In it, she points out that even though politicians and the media are continually boasting that women have indeed reached equality and every opportunity is open to them, there is another front that these people are overlooking, and that is emotional. Women still face continual pressure by the media to conform to what is expected of them. As a result there are increasing stories, such as the one by Abra Chernik, of “stress-induced disorders.”''' It seems as though we are now entering a time where''' ''politics may not influence a woman’s limitations in society as much as popular culture.''''' --Jessica Kilday<br />
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== Anita Hill, “A Woman of Conscience” – 1991 ==<br />
<br />
I chose to write on this topic because after I read Anita Hill's testimony, I asked myself how this would affect my vote if I had one. I'm torn, because it seems like it should be impossible to elect someone to the Supreme Court who is guilty of serial sexual harassment, but at the same time, it seems wrong to deny a candidacy based on entirely non-falsifiable testimony. My gut says Anita Hill was right, and that seems to be supported by outside sources (such as a Hill-basher who later admitted he was lying, labeling himself "part of the Republican propaganda machine" and a "Conservative hitman"), but in other situations, how do you make a decision like this? -- Matt Struth<br />
<br />
== Katie Roiphe, “Date Rape: Hysteria or Epidemic?” – 1991 ==<br />
<br />
I had mixed feelings about this reading. '''I had never thought that the very concept of date rape could enforce the traditional stereotyped sexual roles that women always had of being the ones who don't want sex when men did. However, I also feel like Katie Roiphe, while she has good points, ignores the possibility that some of these women really didn't want sex with these men and instead she seems to have the idea that these women were using the cry of rape to excuse their sexual behaviour.''' While in some cases this might be true, I highly doubt this is the majority. -Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
Frankly this reading upset me and I disagree with Roiphe. '''I don't think that society or women use the term rape too lightly.''' I do think that '''cultural ideals do send messages to women that they shouldn't act sexual and when they do they should be ashamed of their actions. I believe that this is the issue that really needs to be addressed.''' The reality is that women are taken advantage of but '''men are taken advantage of as well'''. Rape is not one way and too often men are embarressed to admit being pressured into sexual situations because of their gender expectations. Roiphe's generalizing views are not really important when you take rape cases individually, because it's not as simple as "I went on a date and it resulted in sex and it was his fault because I was helpless." Not everyone lived through the same "date rape" situation and if they perceived they had been violated by another then their word should stand. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
Meredith brings up a good point. This is one situation where the sexual double standard actually hurts men. If a guy wakes up the next morning and realizes he slept with someone he did not want to, all he can really call it is a mistake. If a guy woke up and claimed that a girl raped him he would be laughed at (at least by the gentleman i know). '''I think now-a-days the biggest problem concerning date rape has to be alcohol''', i bet very rarely does a sober date rape incident occur. -- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
Elizabeth, Meredith and Landon all bring up excellent points. The article did put me off a bit. Date rape education (and repoting) should be encouraged. I don't think women "like" to report being raped. I just read testimony in the paper yesterday from a girl at Annapolis that was raped by a fellow cadet and you could feel her pain coming out. '''I think rape is likely still very much an underreported crime.''' Landon's point about alcohol likely being involved quite often in date rape situations (especially on campuses) is a good one. - Phil Novalski<br />
<br />
== Christine Hoff Sommers, “Who Stole Feminism?” – 1994 ==<br />
'''"What has real feminism to do with sitting around in circles talking about our feelings and menstruation?" HAHAHA. First of all, I'd like to say that Ms. Hoff seems a little bitter about the way women's studies classes are being taught. That said, I think she does raise a valid concern. Most people today (women and men alike) hear the word "feminist" and a negative connotation is automatically thrown with it.''' Forget the fact that you do not have to be a bra-burning, man-hating, same-sex-loving hippie to be a feminist. Forget the fact that you can be a strong, independent, normal girl and be a feminist. Instead, most people hear "feminist" and automatically throw that first connotation right onto it, and men who admit to being feminists are normally mocked which is a shame. Unlike our dear author, I thought the rules that one class presents to it's students at the beginning of the semester was a fantastic idea. It forces the student to enter the class with an open mind and realize that feminism was a movement fighting oppression just like most other movements. One has to go into the class and acknowledge that oppression exists and that you have to respect your classmate's rights. I disagree with her statement that "anything said in the classroom should be repeatable outside." Yes, I believe that students should not be ashamed to speak their opinion, but when discussing such a tough topic, the fact that someone is voicing their opinion should be enough. If they don't want that repeated outside the walls of their classroom, they shouldn't have to worry about it. I believe it teaches students to respect and trust one another. '''To be honest, our dear Ms. Hoff kind of bugged me.''' --Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
== United States v. Virginia (1996), “Equal Protection Under the Law” [VMI case] – 1996 ==<br />
'''The Supreme Court case United States v. Virginia is probably the case that I am most passionate about because it literally hits home.''' I was born and raised in Lexington, home of Virginia Military Institute, and both my father and my brother graduated from VMI. Hearing the stories my dad tells about the Old Corps and witnessing my brother going through Hell Week and the Ratline, I came to understand how physically, mentally, emotionally, and academically demanding VMI is...or once was. Even though I was all of ten years old when this case was decided, I was against VMI being forced to admit women. I had a feeling that things would only become worse...and I was right. For the past two summers, I have gone to VMI for summer school, (which you do not have to be a cadet to attend) and I have taken classes with some of the female cadets that do attend VMI. I will be the first to admit that I am not the smartest woman in the world, but in a freshman level World History class that I took, we were asked to read aloud from the textbook, and honest to God, these girls could barely read! Not only that, but many of them were obviously not in top physical condition. I always heard my brother talking about how horrible the "shedets" were, but now I saw it with my own eyes. Because of United States v. Virginia, VMI was basically forced to lower its standards and accept any female applicants, regardless of their scholastic aptitude or physical prowess. Granted, I do know a select few female cadets who do exceed the academic and physical qualifications that the school lays out, and they have risen to prominent positions in the Corps, but an overwhelming majority of female cadets are not like this. '''So which is worse - not having females at a state supported school that has been an all-male school since its inception, or having to significantly lower standards of acceptance just so sub-par females can attend the school in the name of equality?''' VMI has had to make so many changes and sacrifices in order for women to attend. Barracks had to be renovated so that females could live there, and traditions like Hell Week, sweat parties, and other Ratline activities had to be modified to accommodate women. If the women who attended VMI after the case was decided really wanted things to be equal, then they would have attended the school under the rules of the Old Corps. They did not. Even with the relaxed physical and academic regulations for women, out of the approximately one hundred women who start the Ratline in August, probably only twenty have what it takes to make it through Hell Week, and the numbers tend to diminish after that. The fact that VMI has been forced to lower its standards to accommodate females has really lowered its reputation in the minds of both alumni and current cadets. It is not the same school my father went to, and now he jokingly says that the VMI my brother attended was a country club. '''The men that attend VMI today have been forced to sacrifice the experiences that the alumni had in the Old Corps...how is that for unequal?''' -Marilyn<br />
<br />
== Jennifer Baumgardner and Amy Richards, “A Third Wave Feminist Manifesta” – 2000 ==<br />
'''I LOVED the Third Wave Feminist Manifesta. To me, that is what feminism is all about, and that is what women today should be striving for. This is a manifesta for feminists our age and I believe that every point they raise is important. There is nothing outrageous about any of their plans and, in my opinion and as cheesy as this sounds, the list looks to make the world a better place for women. Everything from Point number 1 about outing unacknowledged feminists to point number 13 about passing the Equal Rights Amendment is important (one I love being point number 10 because I hate the demeaning nicknames 12 year olds use for each other these days.) It's a well thought out manifesta and it's kind of scary how much this applies to us. They're talking to our generation and it's just weird to see where the feminist movement has gone since the second wave movement in the 1960s and 1970s.''' --Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
== Charlotte Bunch, “Global Feminism” – 1995 [at the UN Beijing Women’s Conference] ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Gloria Anzaldua, “The Borderlands” – 1987 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Wow, the head chef of the Roosevelt Hotel in New York City doesn't seem to be that prestigious, if Velma James's 1976 photograph "A Day in the Kitchen" means anything. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
It was kind of strange seeing the photo of Marion Jones in the book.--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
<br />
Must have been strange being a Stanford graduate with a degree in psychology and being asked to go to charm school.--Justin Mattos</div>Lmeissnerhttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_14_Questions/Comments328--Week 14 Questions/Comments2008-04-22T21:30:48Z<p>Lmeissner: /* Cathy Tuley, “Clerical Workers Unite,” 1976. */</p>
<hr />
<div>MP, 459-469, 506-524<br />
<br />
== Roe v. Wade Decision (both Blackmun’s majority ruling and White’s dissent). ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Lindsey Van Gelder reports on “Women vs. the NY Times” in Ms. in 1978. ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Connaught Marshner explains what social conservatives really want, 1988. ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Planned Parenthood versus Casey, 1992 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Gloria Anzaldua soeakes about her identity, 1999 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Asma Gull Hasan, Pakistani-American, 2000 ==<br />
<br />
I learned a lot this week in the reading about "First- and Second- Generation Immigrant Women Speak of Living Inbetween Cultures," particularly about Asma Gull Hasan. I learned a great deal about the Muslim culture from her reading that I had only assumed before from the skewed material I've seen from the news. I did not realize that the Qur'an gave women that kind of status and honored them as much as they did. It really was an interesting reading and a learning experience at the same time! --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
<br />
== Kyoko Mori, Japanese-American, 2000 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Jamala McFadden’s Story of 1990s Welfare Assistance, 2002 ==<br />
<br />
== Rebecca Walker on the 3rd Wave, 2005 ==<br />
<br />
== Ms.Magazine on 5 rights women could lose, 2005 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== US, 565-586 – Rebecca Tsosie, “Changing Women: The Crosscurrents of American Indian Female Identity.”—1988 ==<br />
Prior to reading Rebecca Tsosie's essay "Changing Women: The Crosscurrents of American Indian Feminine Identity," I had never known Native American literature to be so profoundly developed. After reading the article, I definitely have a deep respect for the Native American literature genre. Maybe I will read some of it someday.--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Like Justin, I too never realized just how developed the Native American literature was... and it feels silly for it to just now be dawning on me from the stories I have read related to Native Americans and the stories, songs, poems, et cetera that were mentioned in the stories/articles. I wonder why we don't have more of the Native American literature in public school... we seem to have so much in the way of English and American.... --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I agree with Justin, I never realized the extent of Native American literature out there. I have read some picture books that were designed to teach lessons to children, but other than that it never really occurred to me to look to see what else was there. I also too was curious as to why we don't see more of this genre of literature in schools. We have so many varieties of literature in the schools, why not include a few more? --Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
“Changing Women…” by Rebecca Tsosie discusses the stereotypes that have been created about Indian women through literature and the media. On page 567 she states that “The princess/squaw dichotomy does not even approach the historical realities of Indian women…the primary factor in perceptions of both European women and Indian women became their definition in terms of their relationship with males.” I see her point, but it’s not something that’s special to Indian women. Stereotypes are developed and portrayed for almost any other type of way you can classify a person. In one of the first few weeks of class we read about how the views of Spanish-Mexican women were stereotyped and romanticized through the image that Barceló created for herself… --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
MAW, Chapters 11-13<br />
<br />
== Cathy Tuley, “Clerical Workers Unite,” 1976. ==<br />
Cathy Tuley's involvement in organizing clerical workers helped her personal development by becoming more assertive and self-reliant in the workplace. She refers to utilizing this new found assertiveness in her personal life saying "Sometimes it's kind of rough when you do that to your husband! 'Give me the fact,' you know. 'Prove what you just said.'" This made me think that their was a duality that women had to play between work and home. In work she could be somewhat assertive (depending on her position), and in the home she was expected to remain a subservient role to the man of the house.--LisaM<br />
<br />
== Crystal Lee Sutton, “The Real ‘Norma Rae’ Tells Her Story,” 1986. ==<br />
<br />
Reading "The Real 'Norma Rae' Tells her Story" by Crystal Lee Sutton sure does bring back memories. I remember the first time I dealt with someone like that and coming up with well-reasoned arguments and everything in an attempt to persuade them. It's weird, when someone is not doing what they are supposed to do, why would they actually extend to you common courtesies like honesty. It really doesn't make any sense.--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
== Susan Eisenberg, “Hard-Hatted Women,” 1988. ==<br />
<br />
I thought the "Hard-hatted Women" essay in MAW was amazing! To learn that she became an electrician and managed to hide her pregnancy for 6 months before finally going on maternity-type leaving was just incredible! I was sad that she had a miscarriage, but was really impressed with how her co-workers supported her. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
== Jessie Lopez De La Cruz, “Organizing the Farm Workers,” 1980 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Johnnie Tillmon, “Women on Welfare,” 1972 ==<br />
The movie "Claudine" starring James Earl Jones and Diahann Carroll presents some of the issues raised in "Women on Welfare" by Johnnie Tillmon. When I saw it a few years ago, I remember thinking about how typically 70's it seemed. True it was released in '74, but what I mean is that it seemed to depict exactly what it meant to be black in the 1970's. Has anyone else seen it?--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
<br />
== Mariah Burton Nelson, “Sex and Sports” – 1994 ==<br />
I realize it is the point of the view of the author, but I honestly never thought there were so many lesbians in women sports leagues. I just never associated the two. Sure, I've heard other people associate women sports stars and lesbianism, but I never took them seriously. Wow, that's interesting.--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
<br />
== Marissa Navarro, “Becoming La Mujer” – 1998 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Nancy Mairs, “Women and Disabilities” – 1986 ==<br />
I found the Why me? Why not? portion of "Women and Disabilities" by Nancy Mairs to be fairly interesting. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
<br />
== Abra Fortune Chernik, “The Voice of an Anorexic” – 1995 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Eve Ensler, “The Vagina Monologues” – 1997 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Susan Faludi, “The Backlash Against Feminism” – 1991 ==<br />
I thought it was interesting to read “The Backlash against Feminism” by Susan Faludi. In it, she points out that even though politicians and the media are continually boasting that women have indeed reached equality and every opportunity is open to them, there is another front that these people are overlooking, and that is emotional. Women still face continual pressure by the media to conform to what is expected of them. As a result there are increasing stories, such as the one by Abra Chernik, of “stress-induced disorders.” It seems as though we are now entering a time where politics may not influence a woman’s limitations in society as much as popular culture. --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
<br />
== Anita Hill, “A Woman of Conscience” – 1991 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Katie Roiphe, “Date Rape: Hysteria or Epidemic?” – 1991 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Christine Hoff Sommers, “Who Stole Feminism?” – 1994 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== United States v. Virginia (1996), “Equal Protection Under the Law” [VMI case] – 1996 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Jennifer Baumgardner and Amy Richards, “A Third Wave Feminist Manifesta” – 2000 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Charlotte Bunch, “Global Feminism” – 1995 [at the UN Beijing Women’s Conference] ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Gloria Anzaldua, “The Borderlands” – 1987 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Wow, the head chef of the Roosevelt Hotel in New York City doesn't seem to be that prestigious, if Velma James's 1976 photograph "A Day in the Kitchen" means anything. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
It was kind of strange seeing the photo of Marion Jones in the book.--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
<br />
Must have been strange being a Stanford graduate with a degree in psychology and being asked to go to charm school.--Justin Mattos</div>Lmeissnerhttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_14_Questions/Comments328--Week 14 Questions/Comments2008-04-22T21:30:27Z<p>Lmeissner: /* Cathy Tuley, “Clerical Workers Unite,” 1976. */</p>
<hr />
<div>MP, 459-469, 506-524<br />
<br />
== Roe v. Wade Decision (both Blackmun’s majority ruling and White’s dissent). ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Lindsey Van Gelder reports on “Women vs. the NY Times” in Ms. in 1978. ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Connaught Marshner explains what social conservatives really want, 1988. ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Planned Parenthood versus Casey, 1992 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Gloria Anzaldua soeakes about her identity, 1999 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Asma Gull Hasan, Pakistani-American, 2000 ==<br />
<br />
I learned a lot this week in the reading about "First- and Second- Generation Immigrant Women Speak of Living Inbetween Cultures," particularly about Asma Gull Hasan. I learned a great deal about the Muslim culture from her reading that I had only assumed before from the skewed material I've seen from the news. I did not realize that the Qur'an gave women that kind of status and honored them as much as they did. It really was an interesting reading and a learning experience at the same time! --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
<br />
== Kyoko Mori, Japanese-American, 2000 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Jamala McFadden’s Story of 1990s Welfare Assistance, 2002 ==<br />
<br />
== Rebecca Walker on the 3rd Wave, 2005 ==<br />
<br />
== Ms.Magazine on 5 rights women could lose, 2005 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== US, 565-586 – Rebecca Tsosie, “Changing Women: The Crosscurrents of American Indian Female Identity.”—1988 ==<br />
Prior to reading Rebecca Tsosie's essay "Changing Women: The Crosscurrents of American Indian Feminine Identity," I had never known Native American literature to be so profoundly developed. After reading the article, I definitely have a deep respect for the Native American literature genre. Maybe I will read some of it someday.--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Like Justin, I too never realized just how developed the Native American literature was... and it feels silly for it to just now be dawning on me from the stories I have read related to Native Americans and the stories, songs, poems, et cetera that were mentioned in the stories/articles. I wonder why we don't have more of the Native American literature in public school... we seem to have so much in the way of English and American.... --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I agree with Justin, I never realized the extent of Native American literature out there. I have read some picture books that were designed to teach lessons to children, but other than that it never really occurred to me to look to see what else was there. I also too was curious as to why we don't see more of this genre of literature in schools. We have so many varieties of literature in the schools, why not include a few more? --Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
“Changing Women…” by Rebecca Tsosie discusses the stereotypes that have been created about Indian women through literature and the media. On page 567 she states that “The princess/squaw dichotomy does not even approach the historical realities of Indian women…the primary factor in perceptions of both European women and Indian women became their definition in terms of their relationship with males.” I see her point, but it’s not something that’s special to Indian women. Stereotypes are developed and portrayed for almost any other type of way you can classify a person. In one of the first few weeks of class we read about how the views of Spanish-Mexican women were stereotyped and romanticized through the image that Barceló created for herself… --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
MAW, Chapters 11-13<br />
<br />
== Cathy Tuley, “Clerical Workers Unite,” 1976. ==<br />
Cathy Tuley involvement in organizing clerical workers helped her personal development by becoming more assertive and self-reliant in the workplace. She refers to utilizing this new found assertiveness in her personal life saying "Sometimes it's kind of rough when you do that to your husband! 'Give me the fact,' you know. 'Prove what you just said.'" This made me think that their was a duality that women had to play between work and home. In work she could be somewhat assertive (depending on her position), and in the home she was expected to remain a subservient role to the man of the house.--LisaM<br />
<br />
== Crystal Lee Sutton, “The Real ‘Norma Rae’ Tells Her Story,” 1986. ==<br />
<br />
Reading "The Real 'Norma Rae' Tells her Story" by Crystal Lee Sutton sure does bring back memories. I remember the first time I dealt with someone like that and coming up with well-reasoned arguments and everything in an attempt to persuade them. It's weird, when someone is not doing what they are supposed to do, why would they actually extend to you common courtesies like honesty. It really doesn't make any sense.--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
== Susan Eisenberg, “Hard-Hatted Women,” 1988. ==<br />
<br />
I thought the "Hard-hatted Women" essay in MAW was amazing! To learn that she became an electrician and managed to hide her pregnancy for 6 months before finally going on maternity-type leaving was just incredible! I was sad that she had a miscarriage, but was really impressed with how her co-workers supported her. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
== Jessie Lopez De La Cruz, “Organizing the Farm Workers,” 1980 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Johnnie Tillmon, “Women on Welfare,” 1972 ==<br />
The movie "Claudine" starring James Earl Jones and Diahann Carroll presents some of the issues raised in "Women on Welfare" by Johnnie Tillmon. When I saw it a few years ago, I remember thinking about how typically 70's it seemed. True it was released in '74, but what I mean is that it seemed to depict exactly what it meant to be black in the 1970's. Has anyone else seen it?--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
<br />
== Mariah Burton Nelson, “Sex and Sports” – 1994 ==<br />
I realize it is the point of the view of the author, but I honestly never thought there were so many lesbians in women sports leagues. I just never associated the two. Sure, I've heard other people associate women sports stars and lesbianism, but I never took them seriously. Wow, that's interesting.--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
<br />
== Marissa Navarro, “Becoming La Mujer” – 1998 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Nancy Mairs, “Women and Disabilities” – 1986 ==<br />
I found the Why me? Why not? portion of "Women and Disabilities" by Nancy Mairs to be fairly interesting. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
<br />
== Abra Fortune Chernik, “The Voice of an Anorexic” – 1995 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Eve Ensler, “The Vagina Monologues” – 1997 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Susan Faludi, “The Backlash Against Feminism” – 1991 ==<br />
I thought it was interesting to read “The Backlash against Feminism” by Susan Faludi. In it, she points out that even though politicians and the media are continually boasting that women have indeed reached equality and every opportunity is open to them, there is another front that these people are overlooking, and that is emotional. Women still face continual pressure by the media to conform to what is expected of them. As a result there are increasing stories, such as the one by Abra Chernik, of “stress-induced disorders.” It seems as though we are now entering a time where politics may not influence a woman’s limitations in society as much as popular culture. --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
<br />
== Anita Hill, “A Woman of Conscience” – 1991 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Katie Roiphe, “Date Rape: Hysteria or Epidemic?” – 1991 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Christine Hoff Sommers, “Who Stole Feminism?” – 1994 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== United States v. Virginia (1996), “Equal Protection Under the Law” [VMI case] – 1996 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Jennifer Baumgardner and Amy Richards, “A Third Wave Feminist Manifesta” – 2000 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Charlotte Bunch, “Global Feminism” – 1995 [at the UN Beijing Women’s Conference] ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Gloria Anzaldua, “The Borderlands” – 1987 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Wow, the head chef of the Roosevelt Hotel in New York City doesn't seem to be that prestigious, if Velma James's 1976 photograph "A Day in the Kitchen" means anything. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
It was kind of strange seeing the photo of Marion Jones in the book.--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
<br />
Must have been strange being a Stanford graduate with a degree in psychology and being asked to go to charm school.--Justin Mattos</div>Lmeissnerhttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_12_Questions/Comments328--Week 12 Questions/Comments2008-04-10T11:11:02Z<p>Lmeissner: /* Mirta Vidal Reports on the Rising Consciousness of the Chicana About Her Special Oppression, 1971. */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Rosa Parks and Virginia Foster Durr ==<br />
<br />
<br />
I too have heard of Rosa Parks story but never the details like this article had. What I thought was so interesting was how a bus boycott lasted a year and how all of the black people denied having anything to do with it, and their white bosses went along with the lie, because they needed people to do stuff around their house, and take care of their children. Not only that but everyone new that everyone was lying and there was nothing that anyone could do about it other than cops writing stupid tickets. When the boycott was over I wonder if their were still problems (I imagine so), because there is always that one person who ruins it for everyone, or starts trouble.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
I enjoyed the piece this week that focused mostly on Mrs. Rose Parks in MAW. I always knew the general story about Mrs. Parks, but never details to this extent. I knew there was a bus boycott, but I didn't realize it went on for a year. Just think of the revenue the bus companies suffered. I wonder why it lasted so long. Mrs. Parks really was a remarkable woman though. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I really enjoyed this article on Rosa Parks. I knew about her and what she did but never really knew all the details. There seemed to be so much more to the story than I had always been told. I really liked how it talked about going to get her at the jail and then the trial. It is amazing to me that she started so much without really realizing it. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
The story of Rosa Parks to me is both saddening and uplighting at the same time if that's possible. We know the black perspective on the issue but what was the white's perspective? Did all the white feels the same way and come to the same agreement or were there varying opinions? What did the white people on the bus think that day in history? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
<br />
I found it interesting in the reading in “Civil Rights Activists” (in MAW) that the black men and women who participated in the bus boycott refused to admit it. Were there any legal actions that could have been taken for participating in the boycott? It also talked about some of the legal actions that were taken toward both black and white women who seemed to be aiding in the boycott. “The black people formed car pools, and the city tried cracking down on them by arresting the drivers for going two miles an hour over the speed limit,” (224). Were they really being arrested in the sense that they were being taken to jail, or were they fined and ticketed? You would think that arresting a lot of people for a crime this small would eventually just cost the city more money and resources than necessary. --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I also found this piece well pretty awesome. I agree with Kelley when she said, its amazing how Rosa Parks started such a strong movement without even realizing it. Something that I also found interesting was the unspoken support, when people would talk to others about not taking the bus, that it is nice of them to support the boycott, and people would reply with any excuse possible on why they are not taking the bus. I also liked how the white women supported it as well, even though it was for their own agenda, but when the police started to pull them over I loved how they would respond,saying if you want to come clean my house then fine but until then I will keep driving her to and from her home. The fact that even whites were participating in the boycott really shows the impact that Rosa Parks had. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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I thought a really important part of the Montgomery bus boycotts was the fact that it was almost necessary that black women stayed quiet. I would have assumed, not reading this piece, that most participants would have been proud of being a part of the cause and I was quite surprised to find out that they were silent. I didn't think that admitting to participating could be as risky as it was. In reality women could have lost jobs or face legal fines for such a simple action. Their silence was ultimately their weapon. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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I found it really interesting to read about Rosa Parks and the bus boycott. It was interesting how those who were boycotting would not admit they were doing it. Were they expecting a backlash for boycotting? The way I have always thought of the civil rights movement was that they were proud of their convictions and strongly supported the movement. By boycotting they were supporting the movement but why deny it when asked? That seems strange to me.~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
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I had the same reaction as Meredith. It's interesting to look at early white feminists and activists and compare them to female black activists. While educated, middle class women often characterized the former, it was more difficult for any black woman to openly take up protest against the things that oppressed them. Rosa Parks was basically middle class for black women back then as were many of these women who supported the boycott. But unlike middle class white women during this time and earlier, these women often had to work. Between household duties, motherly duties, and work duties it is hard to imagine these women even had time to be activists in civil rights groups. But, as for all this "I thought black people were proud of their convictions" so "why did they deny it?"-I must respond that in the early 1950s the movement was still young. the south was still full of danger for non-white people who caused a lot of uproar against the way things were. And a black woman (with all her responsibilities and dependents) could not afford to get arrested or lose her job. I think attitudes started dramatically changing more into the late 60s amongst average people, because they had the Civil Rights Acts to use against discriminators, average people (not professional activists like Ella Baker) were not legally protected in the 1950s for even the smallest, personal protests. --Jackie Reed<br />
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Like many of my classmates the detail about this article that struck me was the fact that many of the men and women who were participating in the boycott denied it when they were asked. I would have thought that because its an issue they clearly felt strongly about that they would be willing to admit that they were a part of it. I also enjoyed seeing that the white women supported the black women through this, even if it was simply because they needed someone at their house to do the work. Although i do wonder, how much of it was because of that or were they, like the black men and women, using it as an excuse to cover up their support?- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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I thought this article was very interesting. I too have heard the Rosa Parks story many times but never with this much detail. The thing that surprised me the most was the support the white women gave the black women. I was not surprised the balck women lied about their involvement because that would be dangerous for them. I was surprised to hear about all the white women who would drive their black maids to and from work and then deny it. It was also interesting to read about how the cops tried to stop it by giving tickets to any one they thought was supporting the boycott. - Christine W.<br />
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Just a random comment: Before I read this I didn’t know that Rosa Parks was sitting in the section of the bus for African Americas and only when the white section was full did the bus driver ask her to vacate her seat for a white man. I always thought she was sitting in the first seat on the bus. It really doesn’t matter where she was sitting, the whole thing is wrong. It just changed the mental image of this historic scene in my head. Also… I know that gender ideals were really strict at this time… in this situation how did a man balance gender with race? Like, the guy on the bus that Rosa Parks was suppose to give her seat to… did he think “I should stand and let the lady sit.” When did people’s concepts of race trump there concept of gender norms? – Cat Debelius<br />
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Also I agree with everyone that this was an awesome article you really could see the history being made with so many important figures in their early stages, and the ordinary people on the outskirts who really made it all possible. One question that came to my mind as i was reading was: Did the cops write those tickets out of their own personal rejudice or was there an order from the powers that be? ---- Landon Davis<br />
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Rosa is a hero, I feel that her friend Virginia Foster Durr is as well. As a white women to fight for civil rights in the 50's is remarkable. Together with her husband, they did what they could for the cause, even getting a traffic ticket as a result of transporting black women to and from work. --Nikole Wellman<br />
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Why didn't the NAACP set something like this up sooner, and on purpose. If I was a leader of the NAACP I would have black people out breaking all kinds of minor laws like that, in order to get to court and challenge the constitutionality. Once they won the case did they begin to do this? ----- Landon Davis<br />
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It was so interesting how the women who supported the bus boycott denied why they were walking home. It is understandable that in such a volatile situation they wouldn't admit to what they were doing. But I still found it extremely brave that these women still did it even though they were afraid. -Kendall Haring<br />
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I just want to discuss what Amanda said a little more about white support of the Civil Rights Movement. The way the Durr's immediately rushed to help Rosa Parks after her arrest was remarkable to me. Cliff didn't hesitate because he would be bailing a black woman out of jail, he hesitated because he didn't have the money. To me, that amount of interracial support is incredible, especially when it came to offering women rides during the boycott. Please tell me this is more popular than I get the feeling it was. --Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I also found it interesting that black and white women had to lie about supporting the bus boycott. Society still needed money to support their families and to have jobs available. The boycott was definitely an improvement for the civil rights movement just society could not completely stop to support it. –Ashley Scutari<br />
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What I found interesting about this article is the difference between Rosa Parks's account of what happened and Virginia Foster Durr's account. I can't help but think about whether Durr was sort of spicing up the story or Parks was employing some common euphemisms of the time. --Justin Mattos<br />
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The "Conspiracy of Silence" regarding the Montgomery bus boycott was an interesting facet that I hadn't known about. However, I recalled the movie "Mississippi Burning," and remembered that while much of the white racism was overt, the police harrassment of many blacks and some sympathetic whites was often covert. Its clear the Mrs. Durr was stopped and ticketed for driving a black woman to work, but obviously the police officer wouldn't state that aloud. He was probably following a policy laid down by his police chief that was given orally, so that they could deny such a policy existed. - Phil Novalski.<br />
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== Cynthia Griggs Fleming, “Ruby Doris Smith Robinson and Black Women’s Leadership in SNCC” ==<br />
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The entire time I was reading this essay, the only thing running through my mind was, "Good grief Robinson is incredible!" What I truly loved about her is that she cared for the movement. She wasn't about appearances, she wasn't about making herself known, she wasn't about making the world aware of how much she did, she just went after what she believed in. She pushed boundaries and, as a black woman during a white return to domesticity, really stood up for her beliefs. We read and learn about Rosa Parks and Ella Baker and all these other prominent women involved with the Civil Rights movement and all of it is empowering. Reading about even more women than the "big names" that we've all known since elementary school makes it that much more impressive. These women went against overwhelming odds and had their femininity attacked because of the way they stepped outside their "feminine roles." It's impressive how involved women were in the Civil Rights movement, as well as how high up their positions were within the organizations. However, I'm still having a hard time grasping the fact that Ruby was a debutante. And, as a former majorette myself, I'm proud to learn she twirled a baton at one point too. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I also really enjoyed this article and fully believe that Ruby Doris Smith Robinson is a role model that all people should look up to. She was involved in the movement because it was something that she really believed in, and she truly did not want any publicity out of it, which I loved reading because a lot of times today when someone does something good its always wondering if they did it because they cared or because they wanted the attention. I also enjoyed reading about how their femininity came under attack because of their leadership positions- but I'm also wondering how often this still happens today?- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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I find it interesting that the black women's feminity was questioned because of their activism. "Even though the behavior of black women activists did not always fit contemporary notions of proper female behavior, it did fit comfortably into an established tradition of black female assertiveness."(548) The essay also goes on to state that the feminine side was important to the activist women, but I wondered if their perception of feminine was based on a "white" middle-class ideal.--LisaM<br />
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I think Fleming's piece goes to show that the unpublicized, unrecognized nature of Robinson represents the work of African American women during the civil rights efforts, in general. As one worker states, "We've been getting beaten up for years trying to integrate lunch counters, movies, and so on...But these white girls come down here for a few months and get all the publicity. Everybody talks about how brave and courageous they are. What about us?"(549) All I could think after reading was, what were white women doing that was honestly comparatively newsworthy? I can imagine a reason for racial tensions amoung women after reading this piece. I think that black women were not getting the "right" type of publicity that they sought for their causes from southern institutions. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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Question/comment: Is being a strong woman, or in this case a strong and resilient black woman, still looked upon as unnatural, or a liability today? It's sad, and ironic, that such a strong, spirited lady would be viewed as unattractive and unlady-like because of this her courage and strength. Do these gender politics still apply as much today, particularly in the black communtiy? - Phil Novalski.<br />
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== Mirta Vidal Reports on the Rising Consciousness of the Chicana About Her Special Oppression, 1971. ==<br />
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After reading the article in MP, I feel like the arguments Chicanas had were no different than other races. Obviously they had some fair arguments to make but issues such as female oppresion and childcare, didn't everyone have that same problem unless you were a member of the upper class? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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The reading in MP deals with the Chicanas growing awareness of their oppression. Many of the challenges they faced were similar to those of women of other races, however, they were oppressed as a “nationality, as workers, and as women,” (455). Within their own race, men had trouble dealing with their opposition to their oppression because they feared that it wouldn’t threaten their own power. Many of the things these women fought for, affected them as women (i.e. abortion, childcare, contraception, etc…), so how would this “pose a threat to their ability to rule?” (456). I think Vidal makes a good point in the end when she basically says that there needs to be equality within the race itself (i.e. between chicanas and Chicanos) before the race, in its entirety, can be seen as an equal in society. This brings up the idea or debate on how much influence intra-racial discrimination has on inter-racial discrimination. --Jessica Kilday<br />
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I agree with Rose, after reading this article I had a hard time seeing how the problems the Chicanas had were any different than the problems of other women. I understand that people of different races do have different issues and experiences, I just felt like this article did not do a good job of demonstarting those differences. - Christine W.<br />
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If female inferiority is such an “Anglo thing” how did it get incorporated into so many other cultures? I feel like it is prevalent all over the world. – Cat Debelius<br />
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Kind of builidng of what Cat said about the "Anglo thing" I found it very interesting that the men tried to opress the women by comparing there movements to those of white peoples'. This shows that they obviously did not care for our culture or ways very much and had a negative opinion of white people as a whole. I have noticed this same tool being used to try and manipulate people of other races, and times especially within the white community (linking feminism to lesbianism, and communists).---Landon Davis<br />
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I like the point that Jessica brought out of the reading. With the inequality within a race, how are the Chicanas ever going to free of racial oppression from other races? If they can't even respect other Chicanas regardless of class, then I agree with Vidal's point. Equality has to start within your own race before you can receive respect from others outside of your culture. -Kendall Haring<br />
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I agree with Rose too on how other women were struggling with the same situations, it was not just the Chicanas. What I felt was unfair was the statement about how the doctor without the woman’s consent wanted to see her reaction when given placebo pills that did not prevent conception. His main reason for this was that women would not understand the difference between birth control pills and placebos. –Ashley Scutari<br />
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I snickered at the "Anglo thing" comment as well. Mirta Vidal wanted control over her own body so she can have have a right to have a legal abortion, child care, rights to use contraceptives....but The Women's Liberations Movement was a "Anglo thing". The Chicana's organize their one group working towards the same goal as white women. Both groups could have been one super strong group if they worked together... you know ..."Girl Power" --Nikole Wellman<br />
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I don't know about the rest of you, but my overwhelming feeling while reading this article was one of confusion. Who are the Chicanas? I feel like I need some more content knowledge to fully appreciate this piece. I agree with the several previous statements about the plight of this minority - it was one experienced by many women. Of course the experiences of a minority female are aggravated by the acute racism the country has had and still has today. One of the most unsettling parts of this piece was the part about the doctor prescribing placebos to his patients under the disguise of birth control, and of course the women got pregnant. The doctor's reasoning? Because "Mrs. Gomez from the West Side" just wouldn't understand such things. Unfortunately, I still see this racial prejudice today. I often hear snide comments from a few men about how I can't do something "because I'm a woman." so from personal experience, that MD really pissed me off. ~Juliann Boyles<br />
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Since Chicanos are Latin American, is not their sexual discrimination very close to being exactly the same as those experienced and perpetuated by white people? They have the same European origins and the concepts of femininity contained within machismo and male chauvinism are almost the same. I wonder how that changes things. They certainly did not have the same situation as black women as far as sexual discrimination within their culture was concerned. --Justin Mattos<br />
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The demands of the Chicanas were fairly strange. They did not seem to be quite as focused or realistic. After reading about the Civil Right Movement, how realistic can it sound for a group to demand 24 hour child care? --Justin Mattos<br />
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I have to agree with Justin on some of the demands made by the Chicanas...24 hour child care. If you don't have time to raise your children because of school, work etc., then wait to have them. I feel that this type of demand decredits the rest of their argument. When reading this essay, I had to remind myself that this took place in the United States. Each ethnic group looked to carve out their own niche or take their piece of the pie. I think if all women, regardless of race and class, had got together on the issues, women may have resolved these issues much sooner.--LisaM<br />
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== Naomi Craig's interview ==<br />
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Mrs. Naomi Craig's interview really lets the reader get a feel for how life was for her and her children. There were hard times, but they dealt with them. She discussed the problems she had with finding a house and a job just because of the color of her skin. She also never agreed with the Vietnam and what it did to children and their mother's who couldn't afford to send their children to college to get out of the draft. I know my dad had a draft card # for the Vietnam war and almost had to go... they got within 10 calls of his number before the war was declared over. I would hate to know the feeling that just because you can't afford college, you HAVE to go fight that war... --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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Naomi Craig's interview, she talks about how her and her husband had a hard time buying a home, and she addressed the issue how blacks also had a hard time getting jobs. I had to read "The Orgins of the Urban Crisis" for this week in my American Landscape class and it talks about exactly what she has adressed here in her interview. You would think that realtors wouldn't care who they were selling too, as long as they were making money doing it. I also couldn't believe how difficult they made it for black people to get a job. Also the book talked about how the realtors would use the fact that whites wanted to move if one black person moved into their neighborhood to their advantage to profit more. Although it only talked about the city of Detroit this obviously happened in other places. Most neighborhoods today are still mostly one race. Do we do it on purpose or not still? How many of you have come from a mostly white or mostly black neighborhood?--Michelle M.<br />
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Naomi Craig's interview was very interesting and eye opening for me. I knew about the hardships that blacks faced but at the same time I really didn't understand them. Reading her interview really showed what she had to deal with. I guess since it was more like a story or listening to someone tell stories it made it all seem much more real. I was really surprised to read about how her daughter who was 3 years younger then her son was able to finish school at the same time just because she was interested in studying. That is something so difficult to do and I would have thought it almost not possible for blacks at the time due to segregation. When she talked about Martin Luther King's assassination it made it really showed her feeling. It was a hard time for many people and you can really see how is death affected her when she said "When Martin Luther King died I felt as though the light had gone out of the world." -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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To me my favorite history to read are the personal accounts of real people, anyone can write about anything, but the emotions that come alive in a personal account is so much more. Naomi Craig's interview really fascinated me, because for years and this semester I have been learning about all the hardships blacks had to face, but I really didn't know the real extent of it all. I love that her children succeeded in their lives despite all the segregation, that her daughter who was 3 years younger then her brother graduated at the same time. I feel like this was possible because they had lived in the north but, the north wasn't that much of an easier place to live then the south. I think my favorite line was when Craig was talking about how she went out to get a job when she finished high school and she was told there was no way she was going to find a job. When she says "And here I was dressed lovely, thinking that was the right first step. And here was some dowdy, ugly woman telling me I couldn't have a job." I just started laughing because it is a response any woman would have given to the situation. I can totally see where Craig is coming from, why is this ugly woman so special that she can have a job over a pretty black girl? If you are going to base hiring people on skin color why not hire them based on their looks as well?It truly is amazing to me how these people went through so much and so many of them came out with their heads held high, it really shows how strong a people they were and are today. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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Perhaps one of the most striking pieces of Naomi's interview, for me at least, was when she talked about the protests of the Vietnam War. Perhaps this struck me because I have just spent millions of hours going through Bullet articles of the 1970s. Even though many people did not agree with the war, Naomi Craig included, not everyone protested. I always thought that a lack of political activism and expression was due to the lethargic nature of an American. It was interesting to read that Naomi's reasons instead came from her respect for fellow mothers. Something that has been evident in all of my reading for women's history on African Americans is this strong sense of community. Even though Naomi did not have a child at war, she supported the mothers who did. It must have been so incredibly tough to have a child serving overseas in a war you did not support. ~Juliann Boyles<br />
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Very interesting piece. As a white history major, maybe I'm biased, but I've always looked at Vietnam as a class war in terms of who was drafted and sent over, not that people were selected due to race. Unfortunately, because more whites could afford to go to college, it gives the appearance of being an unjust system for African-Americans. I've known a number of Vietnam vets over the years. The common thread is not their race, but the fact that most of the kids drafted were poor, and when they returned, as Mrs. Craig implied, they were treated with contempt and disdain as baby killers. Mrs. Craig's reminscences in regards to the assasination of Dr. King and the subsequent riots were poignant. I highly reccomend Dr. Crawley's post WWII history class in regard to this. I remember Dr. Crawley giving a vivid lecture regarding 1968. The events as they unfolded, with the assasination of Dr. King and Robert Kennedy less than two months apart, the nightly war footage, the riots, and the riots outside the 1968 Chicago Democratic convention all gave observors at that moment the idea that the world was falling apart, at least in the U.S. I think the title of that web page, "The Whole World is Watching," was lifted from the chants of protestors at the 1968 convention. That entire war in general was an experience that I believe scarred an entire generation. <br />
Phil Novalski.</div>Lmeissnerhttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_12_Questions/Comments328--Week 12 Questions/Comments2008-04-10T03:10:35Z<p>Lmeissner: /* Cynthia Griggs Fleming, “Ruby Doris Smith Robinson and Black Women’s Leadership in SNCC” */</p>
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<div>== Rosa Parks and Virginia Foster Durr ==<br />
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I too have heard of Rosa Parks story but never the details like this article had. What I thought was so interesting was how a bus boycott lasted a year and how all of the black people denied having anything to do with it, and their white bosses went along with the lie, because they needed people to do stuff around their house, and take care of their children. Not only that but everyone new that everyone was lying and there was nothing that anyone could do about it other than cops writing stupid tickets. When the boycott was over I wonder if their were still problems (I imagine so), because there is always that one person who ruins it for everyone, or starts trouble.--Michelle M.<br />
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I enjoyed the piece this week that focused mostly on Mrs. Rose Parks in MAW. I always knew the general story about Mrs. Parks, but never details to this extent. I knew there was a bus boycott, but I didn't realize it went on for a year. Just think of the revenue the bus companies suffered. I wonder why it lasted so long. Mrs. Parks really was a remarkable woman though. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I really enjoyed this article on Rosa Parks. I knew about her and what she did but never really knew all the details. There seemed to be so much more to the story than I had always been told. I really liked how it talked about going to get her at the jail and then the trial. It is amazing to me that she started so much without really realizing it. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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The story of Rosa Parks to me is both saddening and uplighting at the same time if that's possible. We know the black perspective on the issue but what was the white's perspective? Did all the white feels the same way and come to the same agreement or were there varying opinions? What did the white people on the bus think that day in history? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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I found it interesting in the reading in “Civil Rights Activists” (in MAW) that the black men and women who participated in the bus boycott refused to admit it. Were there any legal actions that could have been taken for participating in the boycott? It also talked about some of the legal actions that were taken toward both black and white women who seemed to be aiding in the boycott. “The black people formed car pools, and the city tried cracking down on them by arresting the drivers for going two miles an hour over the speed limit,” (224). Were they really being arrested in the sense that they were being taken to jail, or were they fined and ticketed? You would think that arresting a lot of people for a crime this small would eventually just cost the city more money and resources than necessary. --Jessica Kilday<br />
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I also found this piece well pretty awesome. I agree with Kelley when she said, its amazing how Rosa Parks started such a strong movement without even realizing it. Something that I also found interesting was the unspoken support, when people would talk to others about not taking the bus, that it is nice of them to support the boycott, and people would reply with any excuse possible on why they are not taking the bus. I also liked how the white women supported it as well, even though it was for their own agenda, but when the police started to pull them over I loved how they would respond,saying if you want to come clean my house then fine but until then I will keep driving her to and from her home. The fact that even whites were participating in the boycott really shows the impact that Rosa Parks had. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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I thought a really important part of the Montgomery bus boycotts was the fact that it was almost necessary that black women stayed quiet. I would have assumed, not reading this piece, that most participants would have been proud of being a part of the cause and I was quite surprised to find out that they were silent. I didn't think that admitting to participating could be as risky as it was. In reality women could have lost jobs or face legal fines for such a simple action. Their silence was ultimately their weapon. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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I found it really interesting to read about Rosa Parks and the bus boycott. It was interesting how those who were boycotting would not admit they were doing it. Were they expecting a backlash for boycotting? The way I have always thought of the civil rights movement was that they were proud of their convictions and strongly supported the movement. By boycotting they were supporting the movement but why deny it when asked? That seems strange to me.~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
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Like many of my classmates the detail about this article that struck me was the fact that many of the men and women who were participating in the boycott denied it when they were asked. I would have thought that because its an issue they clearly felt strongly about that they would be willing to admit that they were a part of it. I also enjoyed seeing that the white women supported the black women through this, even if it was simply because they needed someone at their house to do the work. Although i do wonder, how much of it was because of that or were they, like the black men and women, using it as an excuse to cover up their support?- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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I thought this article was very interesting. I too have heard the Rosa Parks story many times but never with this much detail. The thing that surprised me the most was the support the white women gave the black women. I was not surprised the balck women lied about their involvement because that would be dangerous for them. I was surprised to hear about all the white women who would drive their black maids to and from work and then deny it. It was also interesting to read about how the cops tried to stop it by giving tickets to any one they thought was supporting the boycott. - Christine W.<br />
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Just a random comment: Before I read this I didn’t know that Rosa Parks was sitting in the section of the bus for African Americas and only when the white section was full did the bus driver ask her to vacate her seat for a white man. I always thought she was sitting in the first seat on the bus. It really doesn’t matter where she was sitting, the whole thing is wrong. It just changed the mental image of this historic scene in my head. Also… I know that gender ideals were really strict at this time… in this situation how did a man balance gender with race? Like, the guy on the bus that Rosa Parks was suppose to give her seat to… did he think “I should stand and let the lady sit.” When did people’s concepts of race trump there concept of gender norms? – Cat Debelius<br />
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Also I agree with everyone that this was an awesome article you really could see the history being made with so many important figures in their early stages, and the ordinary people on the outskirts who really made it all possible. One question that came to my mind as i was reading was: Did the cops write those tickets out of their own personal rejudice or was there an order from the powers that be? ---- Landon Davis<br />
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Why didn't the NAACP set something like this up sooner, and on purpose. If I was a leader of the NAACP I would have black people out breaking all kinds of minor laws like that, in order to get to court and challenge the constitutionality. Once they won the case did they begin to do this? ----- Landon Davis<br />
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It was so interesting how the women who supported the bus boycott denied why they were walking home. It is understandable that in such a volatile situation they wouldn't admit to what they were doing. But I still found it extremely brave that these women still did it even though they were afraid. -Kendall Haring<br />
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== Cynthia Griggs Fleming, “Ruby Doris Smith Robinson and Black Women’s Leadership in SNCC” ==<br />
<br />
The entire time I was reading this essay, the only thing running through my mind was, "Good grief Robinson is incredible!" What I truly loved about her is that she cared for the movement. She wasn't about appearances, she wasn't about making herself known, she wasn't about making the world aware of how much she did, she just went after what she believed in. She pushed boundaries and, as a black woman during a white return to domesticity, really stood up for her beliefs. We read and learn about Rosa Parks and Ella Baker and all these other prominent women involved with the Civil Rights movement and all of it is empowering. Reading about even more women than the "big names" that we've all known since elementary school makes it that much more impressive. These women went against overwhelming odds and had their femininity attacked because of the way they stepped outside their "feminine roles." It's impressive how involved women were in the Civil Rights movement, as well as how high up their positions were within the organizations. However, I'm still having a hard time grasping the fact that Ruby was a debutante. And, as a former majorette myself, I'm proud to learn she twirled a baton at one point too. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I also really enjoyed this article and fully believe that Ruby Doris Smith Robinson is a role model that all people should look up to. She was involved in the movement because it was something that she really believed in, and she truly did not want any publicity out of it, which I loved reading because a lot of times today when someone does something good its always wondering if they did it because they cared or because they wanted the attention. I also enjoyed reading about how their femininity came under attack because of their leadership positions- but I'm also wondering how often this still happens today?- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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I find it interesting that the black women's feminity was questioned because of their activism. "Even though the behavior of black women activists did not always fit contemporary notions of proper female behavior, it did fit comfortably into an established tradition of black female assertiveness."(548) The essay also goes on to state that the feminine side was important to the activist women, but I wondered if their perception of feminine was based on a "white" middle-class ideal.--LisaM<br />
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== Mirta Vidal Reports on the Rising Consciousness of the Chicana About Her Special Oppression, 1971. ==<br />
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After reading the article in MP, I feel like the arguments Chicanas had were no different than other races. Obviously they had some fair arguments to make but issues such as female oppresion and childcare, didn't everyone have that same problem unless you were a member of the upper class? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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The reading in MP deals with the Chicanas growing awareness of their oppression. Many of the challenges they faced were similar to those of women of other races, however, they were oppressed as a “nationality, as workers, and as women,” (455). Within their own race, men had trouble dealing with their opposition to their oppression because they feared that it wouldn’t threaten their own power. Many of the things these women fought for, affected them as women (i.e. abortion, childcare, contraception, etc…), so how would this “pose a threat to their ability to rule?” (456). I think Vidal makes a good point in the end when she basically says that there needs to be equality within the race itself (i.e. between chicanas and Chicanos) before the race, in its entirety, can be seen as an equal in society. This brings up the idea or debate on how much influence intra-racial discrimination has on inter-racial discrimination. --Jessica Kilday<br />
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I agree with Rose, after reading this article I had a hard time seeing how the problems the Chicanas had were any different than the problems of other women. I understand that people of different races do have different issues and experiences, I just felt like this article did not do a good job of demonstarting those differences. - Christine W.<br />
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If female inferiority is such an “Anglo thing” how did it get incorporated into so many other cultures? I feel like it is prevalent all over the world. – Cat Debelius<br />
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Kind of builidng of what Cat said about the "Anglo thing" I found it very interesting that the men tried to opress the women by comparing there movements to those of white peoples'. This shows that they obviously did not care for our culture or ways very much and had a negative opinion of white people as a whole. I have noticed this same tool being used to try and manipulate people of other races, and times especially within the white community (linking feminism to lesbianism, and communists).---Landon Davis<br />
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== Naomi Craig's interview ==<br />
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Mrs. Naomi Craig's interview really lets the reader get a feel for how life was for her and her children. There were hard times, but they dealt with them. She discussed the problems she had with finding a house and a job just because of the color of her skin. She also never agreed with the Vietnam and what it did to children and their mother's who couldn't afford to send their children to college to get out of the draft. I know my dad had a draft card # for the Vietnam war and almost had to go... they got within 10 calls of his number before the war was declared over. I would hate to know the feeling that just because you can't afford college, you HAVE to go fight that war... --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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Naomi Craig's interview, she talks about how her and her husband had a hard time buying a home, and she addressed the issue how blacks also had a hard time getting jobs. I had to read "The Orgins of the Urban Crisis" for this week in my American Landscape class and it talks about exactly what she has adressed here in her interview. You would think that realtors wouldn't care who they were selling too, as long as they were making money doing it. I also couldn't believe how difficult they made it for black people to get a job. Also the book talked about how the realtors would use the fact that whites wanted to move if one black person moved into their neighborhood to their advantage to profit more. Although it only talked about the city of Detroit this obviously happened in other places. Most neighborhoods today are still mostly one race. Do we do it on purpose or not still? How many of you have come from a mostly white or mostly black neighborhood?--Michelle M.<br />
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Naomi Craig's interview was very interesting and eye opening for me. I knew about the hardships that blacks faced but at the same time I really didn't understand them. Reading her interview really showed what she had to deal with. I guess since it was more like a story or listening to someone tell stories it made it all seem much more real. I was really surprised to read about how her daughter who was 3 years younger then her son was able to finish school at the same time just because she was interested in studying. That is something so difficult to do and I would have thought it almost not possible for blacks at the time due to segregation. When she talked about Martin Luther King's assassination it made it really showed her feeling. It was a hard time for many people and you can really see how is death affected her when she said "When Martin Luther King died I felt as though the light had gone out of the world." -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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To me my favorite history to read are the personal accounts of real people, anyone can write about anything, but the emotions that come alive in a personal account is so much more. Naomi Craig's interview really fascinated me, because for years and this semester I have been learning about all the hardships blacks had to face, but I really didn't know the real extent of it all. I love that her children succeeded in their lives despite all the segregation, that her daughter who was 3 years younger then her brother graduated at the same time. I feel like this was possible because they had lived in the north but, the north wasn't that much of an easier place to live then the south. I think my favorite line was when Craig was talking about how she went out to get a job when she finished high school and she was told there was no way she was going to find a job. When she says "And here I was dressed lovely, thinking that was the right first step. And here was some dowdy, ugly woman telling me I couldn't have a job." I just started laughing because it is a response any woman would have given to the situation. I can totally see where Craig is coming from, why is this ugly woman so special that she can have a job over a pretty black girl? If you are going to base hiring people on skin color why not hire them based on their looks as well?It truly is amazing to me how these people went through so much and so many of them came out with their heads held high, it really shows how strong a people they were and are today. -- Amanda Taub</div>Lmeissnerhttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_11_Questions/Comments328--Week 11 Questions/Comments2008-04-03T01:34:32Z<p>Lmeissner: /* Joanna Rubin, "An Unplanned Pregnancy" 1950s */</p>
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<div>== Debate topics or comparative questions ==<br />
Should Rosie the Riveter go home and raise a family or continue working? --Justin Mattos<br />
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Did the war truly elevate the status of women? -- Kellye<br />
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== Betty Jeanne Boggs, "Balancing Work and Family" ==<br />
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I really liked the article "Balancing Work and Family." I really loved how this family was backwards, even for the 50s-60s. The husband was still trying to finish school, the wife is working, they aren't that worried about having children. They accept it when it completely surprises them. I really like the fact that Betty Boggs worked so much and she actually liked her job, she got to choose her job, I also do like that she did try working during her first child. The fact that she at least gave it a shot was impressive to me. When she had her second child it was understandable that she wanted to stay home, also her husband by then didn't need her to be working all the time to support the family. I know there is a stereotype of families from the 50s, they are in their perfectly manicured houses and have the perfect families were dad works and mom cooks and cleans all day. But was the manicured family real, or was it created by the media? and were families like the Boggs just as "real" as the ''perfect'' manicured family?<br />
-- Amanda Taub<br />
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I also really liked the article by Betty Jeanne Boggs. It really struck me as out of the time period because of the wife working so the husband could finish school. Also the attitude of if 'one can't go and have fun, well, the other wont go either because its not fair.' I thought that the relationship she and her husband had was amazing, especially for the 1950s and 60s. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I agree with the above two posts, although this article definitely showed me that the idealistic picture of family during the 50's wasnt real, and although that was a bit jarring because i had never really thought that such a modern relationship existed back then, it was nice to see that it was possible. Also i feel that often we assume that relationships in the past were purely based on the children both currently present or expected, and that the actual relationship between two people was never prioritized, i like that this is the opposite, this couple truly seems to care for one another if they are blatantly defying the stereotypes of the day in order to make each other's dream possible. --Julie Robert<br />
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I really liked this article too. It really showed how women were able to work outside the home but still raise their kids. It showed how women were torn between work and the family. For instance Boggs, wanted to stay home with the new baby but she wanted to help her husband who wasnt in good health and she really liked her job. It surprises me that you can enjoy working in those rough conditions but I guess it was so liberating that they wanted just wanted to be there. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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I like this article too because it emphasized how hard women struggled to have a job and a family life. It's a struggle for many women today but there are many daycare options and childcare outside of the home is accepted. I can't even imagine being a working mother with such little support from society. -Kendall Haring<br />
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== Wilma Mankiller, "Indian Relocation" - 1993 about life in the 1950s ==<br />
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After all these years, the government still felt that there was an ‘Indian Problem” that needed to be resolved. The only way they believed to settle it was by removing the Indians from their reservations. Did the government think that just because they were not holding the Native Americans at gun point meant that it was not seen as another Trail of Tears? –Ashley Scutari<br />
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I honestly think that the government knew that what they were doing was wrong but at the same time they thought they were doing the Indians a favor by making life easier for them, getting them jobs, better living conditions (of course they really weren't). You have to remember at this time the government wasn't too thrilled with people beign different, they wanted everyone to be the same to fit some sort of ideal. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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== Joanna Rubin, "An Unplanned Pregnancy" 1950s ==<br />
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This article really made me sad because the author mentioned feeling so alone because she didn't feel that she could tell her dad about the pregnancy. I really wonder how many young women today still feel this way, since abortions are still a very heated debate in today's society. I would imagine that many young women today also feel this sense of loneliness that Joanna Rubin felt during this time in her life. - Elizabeth Frank<br />
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This article made me sad as well because she had no one to turn to other than the guy that got her pregnant, however I thought it was interesting that they went to some random place in Puerto Rico with a doctor named Pardo. Even though the boyfriend found out about this place through a friend it was no wonder she thought she might end up at some little dark room clinic that really wasn't lagit. She took a huge chance on flying out to this place that she really new nothing about. I would have been scared out of my mind too. There were places in the US that did these illegal abortions so I wonder if many other women went out of the US for abortions?--Michelle M.<br />
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Elizabeth and Michelle mentioned in their posts how alone Joanna Rubin was in her private ordeal. Abortion is not just a physical ordeal. Rubin says that she was okay with her decision in aborting a child, but this is the type of life event that she is less likely to share and will probably conceal. At the time, abortion was illegal in the states and carried a stigma that would have probably alienated her and prevented her seeking emotional support from professionals and other women. Abortion doesn't just take a fetus away, it creates a void and replaces it with guilt and shame.--LisaM<br />
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I thought it was interesting to read Joanna Rubin's account of her unplanned pregnancy. My question is if JOanna knew the risks of sleeping with her boyfriend and she didn't see a future with him then why take those huge risks sleeping with him? It's not like she was uneducated as far as the risks and unsafety of abortions. It is a type of rebellion for women? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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I also found in MP it interesting to read about Joyce Johnsons experience obtaining an illegal abortion in NYC. What really struck me was how she had to get "drinks" with the doctor to set up the abortion appointment. Also that the room where the procedure took place, everything in the room was white. White representing pure and clean with a procedure of quite the opposite. Was this situation a common trend for women at this time? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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== Ethel Barol Taylor, "Women Strike for Peace" ==<br />
The article "Women Strike for Peace" by Ethel Barol Taylor really hit home for me. She talks about handing out leaflets saying "Take your children off milk," and she had very good reason to do so. The nuclear fallout from the testing of the atomic bomb at Los Alamos settled over central Iowa to central Missouri, and some unoccupied parts of Wyoming. My mothers entire family is from central Missouri, and she grew up in central Iowa. The radiation from the fallout affected the grass, which the dairy cows grazed on, and the radiation got into the milk. We are now seeing the results of people who drank radiation poisoned milk in the late 1940's and the 1950's in abnormally high instances of thyroid cancer. My grandfather developed thyroid cancer. My grandmother had a gouiter. My mom at age SEVEN also had a thyroid gouiter removed. She later developed thyroid cancer (it was discovered in ~1996) - she had to have her entire thyroid removed. Many of her cousins also developed thyroid cancer. So good for the ladies of Women Strike for Peace! Thanks for trying to raise awareness! - Sarah H.<br />
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The article was also interesting in that these women ware able to protest in such a lady-like manner that they were able to avoid any harsh criticism. Their handling of protests and of HUAC investigations was so impeccable that HUAC and those like them were being ridiculed. It was an interesting way to use the constraints of the time in their favor. - Sarah H.<br />
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== Rachel Carson Answers her Critics - 1963 ==<br />
I found this article to be fairly strange since I always associated the controversy regarding DDT and other insecticides with the environmental issues and campaigns of the 1980's. Is that true or am I misremembering that? --Justin Mattos<br />
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I think Rachel Carson was really ahead of her time in terms of environmentalism. It seems like in postwar America, everyone was ready to use the new technology and new chemicals without thinking about the effects it had on nature. Carson was willing to step up against what everyone believed was progress and ask Americans to take a real look at the way they were affecting the world around them. -Kendall Haring<br />
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== Louisa Randall Church - "Parents, Architects of Peace" 1946 ==<br />
The first reading in MP by Louisa Randall I thought was very interesting. It takes on more of a psychology perspective to parenting as she outlines what she believes are the major duties that parents have for their children. First of all, when talking about raising the children, Randall uses the term “parents” in the plural and discusses the equal responsibility of the man and the woman in raising the children, which shows a definite shift from the “women in the home” attitude that had prevailed previously. Also, it shows the growing responsibilities that parents have toward children. It extends the previous belief that women were responsible for raising moral children further to include “love and affection, equal rights, discipline, freedom, enrichment, cooperation, and education.” I also found it funny in the end when she suggested that “School officials, everywhere, and citizens, too, should give active support to the idea of training for parenthood…” (412). --Jessica Kilday<br />
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I also found this article interesting but what stood out to me was the reference to parents (plural) and the emphasis she seems to place on equality within the household. I'm wondering how many women during this period shared this ideal since this is also the period where women were shifting back to the world of the home and were taking on more responsibility for raising the children, which places more importance on her influence than the fathers, which is not equality at all. So I found this article interesting but am slightly confused as to how common her point of view was during this period. - Elizabeth Frank<br />
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I found this article very interesting, as it does shift way from the previous practice of having only one parent involved in the raising of children. It's very much like how my parents raised me. However, speaking to Elizabeth's inquiry, I don't believe that this was a widespread belief. I think it was an idea that was only beginning to emerge, as the 1950's saw more of a return to the "cult of domesticity" way of thinking. I know from stories from my mother that her mother was responsible for all punishment if her or my uncle acted up, and she was the one to assign chores, etc. It was the mothers who were primarily responsible for raising the children, and was not as equitable a job as Louisa Randall Church would like. - Sarah Herzog<br />
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== Farnham and Lundberg, Modem Woman: The Lost Sex (1947) ==<br />
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Several of the other readings dealt with the increasing notion of women working outside the home, in addition to raising a family. As Marnia Farnham points out, the progress that has been made in terms of opportunities and technologies for women “serves less to clarify and simplify her life than to complicate it with conflict piled on conflict…” (412). She goes further to say that women are no longer making progress for feminization but have instead begun to become more masculine. Is she suggesting that these women are gradually leaving their traditional gender roles and should be classified as women only in a biological sense? In order to be equal do they both first have to be defined as “masculine?” --Jessica Kilday<br />
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I find this article interesting because I actually see a lot of parallels between this period and what some people today still believe. First, I noticed that they attack the idea of child day care systems that, according to them, leave a child unsatisfied. In today's society I know many women who feel that day care, at least for children below pre-school age, is a bad idea because it doesn't teach them the discipline that children need to learn. I found this connection to today's world very striking as I was reading this article.-Elizabeth Frank<br />
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I am not sure if a woman helped write this article, but I find it interesting that there existed a significant proportion of women activists who did not believe women should work outside of the home and the ideals of the Cult of Domesticity. It almost seems as if it is one of those cases where society's ideals have permanently lowered an individual's self-esteem. I am very tempted to conclude that it is a very similar lowering of self-esteem as that described in Brown v. Board, but I wouldn't want to get ahead of myself. --Justin Mattos<br />
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== Pauli Murray, 1947 ==<br />
I found it interesting that the constant theme of more women than men attending college appeared in this article. I guess women have always gone to college in greater numbers than men when given the chance. How strange is that? --Justin Mattos<br />
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== Joyce Johnson - 1955 ==<br />
The article in MP, "Nonconformist Joyce Johnson..." was very interesting. I really liked he reasoning for sleeping around or before marriage. Since you have stayed so late it didn't matter, as long as you didn't go home. So instead of going home, you find some guy to go home with. First of all, with rules like that you are asking to get pregnant. This account however, was so shady, the means of getting an abortion is insane. She had to be taken by a sketchy guy, to this horribly mean Dr. who frowns on abortions but will perform them illegally. Did all Doctors frown upon their patients when they give abortions? I feel that if you are going to risk your life (not meaning death but imprisonment) and medical license you must be pro choice. I think the sketchiest part of all is when the procedure it over with, this "escort" invites you back to fire island, its almost like he is saying, want to get pregnant again this weekend? --- Amanda Taub<br />
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== Letter from black reader to ''The Ladder'', in 1957 ==<br />
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I am impressed how an African American lesbian in the 1950’s would be so open to write to this editor especially being so open with her sexuality. “The Ladder” seems like another great stepping stone for women to be heard. Were there many other magazines like this as well? –Ashley Scutari<br />
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== Betty Friedan, "The Problem That Has No Name" ==<br />
In this reading I believe that the "Problem That Has No Name" is some kind of depression. I say that because obviously these women are lacking something from their life. They feel unfulfilled, somethings missing. They want to be recongnized for something more than just being a house wife, mother and so on. I think too because of this expected role women are to play/be was so strong during that time that they felt they could do nothing about it, because they couldn't even really put a name to what they felt. Having a job meant a lot to most of these women. Betty Jeanne Bogg's reading just proves that she is one of many who love there job very much. She states that several times through out her reading. She loved her children and in the end was glad she did stay home with them but in the beginning she was really torn because she "really enjoyed that job." (210) Also in Vicki L. Ruiz's article I thought it was interesting how she mentions that "wages gave women a feeling of independence." (349) Even though her article is about mexican american women, I think that statement holds true for all women during that time. Having that indepence of a job and earning their own money filled the missing thing, and was or could have been the fix I think to the "Problem That Has No Name." --Michelle M.<br />
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== Rickie Solinger, politics of abortion, 1950-1970 ==<br />
I actually felt a little dumb with this week's readings. There was a type of abortion that was mentioned in multiple articles, but the one I remember off the top of my head was "Women and the Politics of Hospital Abortion Committees, 1950-1970." They mentioned 'therapeutic abortions' and either I missed where they they discussed what it is or it is one those things they figure the audience knows what they were talking about. I have no idea what that kind of abortion is, I have never heard of it until this reading. --Ashley Wilkins (feeling a little dumb right now) <br />
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== Vicki Ruiz, "'Star Struck': Acculturation, Adolescence, and Mexican American Women, 1920-1950" ==</div>Lmeissnerhttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_9_Questions/Comments328--Week 9 Questions/Comments2008-03-20T00:59:21Z<p>Lmeissner: /* Dorothy Dunbar Bromley on Birth Control in the Depression */</p>
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<div>== "I Want You Women Up North to Know" by Tillie Olson ==<br />
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In "I Want You Women Up North to Know" by Tillie Olson I found this line hilarious " ...she says that he prays and dreams of a another world...a heaven (which he does not know was brought to earth in 1917 in Russia, by workers like him)"...hind-sight is 20/20 right?- Emely Amaya<br />
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I found this reading interesting but at the same time confusing. Tillie Olson is clearly attacking the women in the north who are buying the clothes that are being made, but its these women that are allowing the women she is writing about to have their jobs. Yes, their conditions are horrible and the pay is horrible, but thats not a reason to attack the other women I would think. I would also think that the depression, while it might have lessened in the Northern cities, was still affecting their lives, so her accusations seem to me to be unjustified.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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== Annelise Orleck, "Militant Housewives of the Depression" ==<br />
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I was amazed to learn how organized and militant housewives were during the Great Depression. Prior to reading this week's reading, I didn't know people were able to actually find constructive ways of regaining a semblance of their previous way of life during the Great Depression. --Justin Mattos<br />
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I LOVED this reading! I enjoyed seeing how women reacted to some of the hardships of the depression in a more aggressive way. I found it interesting that Orleck mentions that the women who were speaking out weren't doing so because they wanted the attention but because they wanted to be able to fulfill their duties as wives and mothers, which fits into the idea of what a woman was supposed to be doing, making their efforts more acceptable in society. I had no idea that they were able to accomplish so much or that the movement of housewives was so widespread across the U.S.! These I think are definitely ones who, if I was a mother during this period, I would want my children to respect and look up to because they were fighting for something they believed so strongly in (even though I'd prefer to be something more than a housewife). -Elizabeth Frank<br />
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This really was a fun article to read. I was very impressed at how these women managed to keep their life somewhat the same during the depression. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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== All Eleanor Roosevelt readings ==<br />
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All of this week's readings about and created by Eleanor Roosevelt really confirmed history's seemingly high opinion of her. The fact that the Roosevelts' were able to constructively respond to all of their mail during the Great Depression is very admirable. --Justin Mattos<br />
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I thougth it was interesting that women actually took the time to write Eleanor Roosevelt about things that they desperately needed, like clothing and jobs for their husbands. Just thinking in today's world and if a depression happened now, I would think it pointless to write the first lady about what I desperately needed, just because I would think she for one probably would never even read the letter and two she probably wouldn't care much less help me. Yet so many women in the 1930's wrote her their depressing situations, I assume because they were just so desperate and no one else could help them so why couldn't the first lady. They probably thougtht too that Eleanor could influence her husband since he was the President to make him do something. Also article 5 and 6 in MP show that Eleanor did actually take recongnition of the problems during the depression and talked about the problems and spoke actively on many of the problems she saw.--Michelle M.<br />
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What I found interesting were the letters to the Roosevelt's and specifically Eleanor in both MAW and MPA. Like Michelle had said I wouldn't be writing to the first lady if there was a depression. Especially in today's society the letter would just get lost or thrown away. One of the letters did bother me a bit. I know it really shouldn't have but, the one about the little girl who wants roller blades.... to me its just so wrong. I know she is younger and doesn't understand what is going on, but it just really bugged me that she asked for roller blades when people are dieing of hunger, and are out of work and on the streets. Then there is this girl asking for roller blades because he friends are making fun of her. No matter what age you are things like that just bother me. Also wouldn't the parents maybe explain to their child that mommy and daddy are having a few problems financially? -- Amanda Taub<br />
'''(McClurken don't make fun of me to much in class, I like to be there when i am made fun of save a little for Tuesday).'''<br />
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For me the most interesting letter to Eleanor Roosevelt was the second one. The woman thanked Roosevelt for her reply to the last letter, but then said she did not need charity just a loan, even sending in collateral she claimed was valuable. However, what bothers me here is not the fact that the first lady could not possibly begin to make individual loans to people, but the size of this woman's ego or pride. She claimed she gave up her rings which held the highest emotional value to her, this is not true. What holds the highest value in this woman's life is clearly her ability to save face, her pride. If she was truly desperate, and in such great need that she would ask a loan from a stranger, she should be willing to give up her greatest asset; that of her ego, and take the charity that the government has set up for her. I have noticed the same trend more subtly throughout the rest of the readings, what is causing this? Is it a few isolated cases or does this pride fit in with the overall atttidue of the day, or somehow into the middle class ideals we have talked so extensively about? --- Landon Davis<br />
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== Meridel Lesueur, "Despair of Unemployed Women" ==<br />
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Reading Meridel Lesueur's article really struck me. Just how starved the women were, and the endless sitting at the job bureau day after day. The description of some of their faces really made me feel a little sad. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I found this reading interesting because it showed that the middle class ideals, or what i guess could be described as middle class prejudice or maybe just denial in this case, still affected women even in this time of crisis. Where as before when the economy was good, women were not afforded the same opportunities as men (i.e. lower wages, lower glass ceilings, smaller scope of job opportunities), now in the depression women still arent afforded the same rights and opportunities as men (i.e. no flop houses, a cultural unwillingness to see women living in the parks, and charities only helping the deserving few). -- Landon Davis<br />
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== Ann Marie Low's "The Dust Bowl" ==<br />
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Ann Marie Low's "The Dust Bowl" was intriguing to read. Just how much dust piled up and how much they had to wash to keep their dishes, clothes, and house clean was unreal. I had always been told that there was 'a lot of dust,' but this article really put it in perspective. How did the people manage to live in it? I know that it said many babies and elderly died in it, but how did people live in it? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I really like the piece titled Dust Bowl.Finding out the things these people had to go through. The excessive cleaning that occurs before anything, all the hours put into cleaning are such wasted hours. I never really thought of it like this, all this time spent on the cleaning could have been used for finding a job or getting more food. The one thing that did give me a little relief was that Ann Marie Low, the girl writing this had time for leisure, she was able to go out to the movies, that even through this she was able to maintain some social life. Even though sometimes housekeeping did get in the way she was able to do things for her self. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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Ignoring the fact of the endless dust, life for this family seemed to be much better, as Amanda said the girl seemed to have time for leisure, and the ham, eggs, and bread seem like a feast compared to the rations of crackers described in the earlier readings of women in the cities. Was this true for the majority of rural families compared with those in the cities? Or is this a rare case? As an afterthought, I still havent decided if I would rather starve or live in all that dust, both sound unpleasant.----Landon Davis<br />
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== Margaret Jarman Hagood's "The Life Cycle of a White Southern Farm Woman" ==<br />
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Margaret Jarman Hagood's "The Life Cycle of a White Southern Farm Woman" was so depressing! I was reading it and toward the end I had to stop and just stare at the book. I never realized that a baby that close to birth who was so active could just... die like that. 11 days before birth! I read it allowed to my husband and our friend who was visiting and they both stared at me and asked "Why are you reading something so depressing!?!?" Does those kinds of death still happen in America today? I mean, that close to birth? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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This article bothered me a bit. Like Ashley I was shocked about the death of her baby so close to its birth but Margaret Hagood seemed to be extremely petty to me. She was annoyed because one of her children wasn't as pretty as she hoped and she just seemed annoyed that she couldn't have all the material things that she wanted. I just found her annoying because she seemed to not be upset because of the hardship of the depression but because she was worried that her daughter and that she, herself, wouldn't be viewed as pretty.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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== Genora Johnson Dollinger, "Women and Labor Militancy" ==<br />
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Dollinger's essay on "Women and Labor Militancy" was interesting. I I had no idea some women took it so far and seriously in these union groups. Sure we've learned how they take a militant approuch, but the lady in this reading was beyond that. What I thought was so interesting about her was how she used her gender against the cops in order to get where and what she wanted. She knew as a women that the cops would not shoot her in the back like they would a man, and therefore marching herself right in there on these strikes helping to defend these men, as well as using a type of reverse psychology on the cops to try and get them to see their fight. Pretty smart. On top of that she is like, oh by the way I had TB while I was doing all of this. She had some guts. She had a lot of women back her up on these strikes and even though the cops did not shoot them like they may have done to men I wonder if any got arrested at least?--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
Dollinger wrote about "Women and Labor Militancy" in the 1930's. Women formed the Emergency Brigade as their form of activism, which at the time was very appreciated by the men it was helping. However, as women's roles in these positions became less necessary and demands were being met, their roles became less necessary. People quickly reverted back to their previous expectations and as it states on page 170 men began saying, "Well, you women did a wonderful job, but now your duty is back there getting those kids in school, getting the wash done, and regular meals again…" Though the women were helpful for that time, does it really show progress for women and their increasingly public roles if it can disappear as quickly as it can emerge? I think it shows how easily the situation of women can change within certain societal conditions, how fragile progress can be, and how easily it is to revert back to the default. The challenge then becomes not how to be more active and make progress at a certain time or under certain circumstances, but how to use all of these collectively to change the default. –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Carlotta Martin's "A Mexican-American Childhood during the Depression" ==<br />
<br />
In "A Mexican-American Childhood during the Depression" Carlotta Martin discusses what is like growing up in the barrio and how difficult life was during the Great Depression. She mentions that it was more common for children to be raised by their grandparents. Would this be in the sense that was it common for grandparents to live in the same households as their children and other extended family and for them to serve as we would see babysitters today? Or did the grandparents take their grandchildren, live separately, and give both parents a chance to work. Was this common within other ethnic groups or social classes as well? Or did it simply serve as an opportunity for the children to get an education as opposed to working to help their struggling families during the depression? –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
<br />
== Photo Essay ==<br />
Personally, I loved the Photo essay. I think that photographs are a really interesting way to show how things have changed from one era to the next and the pictures in this week's reading did just that. Seeing women in pants and with shorter hair on almost every girl was a neat thing to see because this had recently become a new fad. The photos are also a great way to visualize what we were talking about in class on Tuesday, including women working in men's jobs while they went off to war (like in the aviation plant photo) and joining and supporting unions (like in the auto workers' auxiliary photo). It kind of proves that all of this stuff really did happen which is beneficial when it seems kind of unreal that women wearing pants had been such a major controversy. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
== Dorothy Dunbar Bromley on Birth Control in the Depression ==<br />
It annoys me how it took an economic depression to make people realize how important birth control was. It would happen that way, people say how immoral it is until babies become an economic burden that they can't afford. I am glad, however, that they DID realize it was important though because the more children, the harsher the despression would've been. It is sad to see that the poorer people always were the ones having the most children, that is unfortunately the way it usually is.- Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
I agree with Emely Amaya's comment on the studies regarding the high number of births among poor people during the Great Depression. I was sort of wondering and hoping that studies such as those were the reason behind the repeal of prohibitions against the dissemination of information regarding birth control by AMA doctors. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Isnt it still true today that despite the wide availability and knowledge of birth control, the families that can not afford to have a child still are the ones who end up having the most children?--Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I have to ask the same question Landon does because wide availability and knowledge of birth control does not necessarily solve the problem. I'm not suggesting that the Depression did not increase hardships or awareness for birth control. I think that the problem is more complicated. Perhaps the reasons are embedded in culture, or it may have more to do with the subservient status of women to men. In many cases the man dictates the use of birth control. I've read articles that suggest that young women would rather risk pregnancy that lose a boyfriend. Birth control only works if both partners are willing to use it.--LisaM<br />
<br />
When it takes a depression for people to finally realize that having lots of children is not a good idea it really only effects those that had the money to have children in the first place. The ones that cant afford to are still going to have them. The ones that limited children due to the depression were typically middle class families. It is sad, that it continues to be the families that cant afford children that are having such large numbers. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
== Lydia Mendoza recalls her career in the Depression ==<br />
I loved the Lydia Mendoza recollection. Her modesty was overwhelming, but at the same time she was able to effectively describe how tough the depression was on families, and especially on minorities. Having to play in the plaza for two nights in a row just to make up the rent for the week had to have been difficult and you can really understand why her mother was hesitant about letting her travel to go on the radio show. If I were her mother I probably would have done the same thing -- her daughter was earning her quite a bit in the plaza so why change that, right? At the same time, I think it was wonderful that the manager found her a sponsor - it's kind of romanticized really and the way a great success story should start. I also liked how, by reading Lydia's piece, you could tell that women were still trying to establish themselves alongside men in the music world (and life in general.) "It was a very pretty sight and very special because we were women and very young..." Her discussion of the plaza being filled entirely with groups of men playing their instruments just emphasizes how all cultures dealt with a gender struggle. --Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
== P’ing Yu, Racism among white CA Clubwomen, 1937 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Louise Mitchell, Denounces the “Slave Markets” where Domestics are Hired in NYC, 1940 ==<br />
<br />
It is so sad that so many young women had to stand on the street corners just to try to get work. I was surprised that domestic workers made up most of the country's job force, especially when it was a last resort job for women. Reading the piece about the domestic "slave markets" really showed how hard it was for women, especially African-American women, to get jobs. --Kellye Sorber</div>Lmeissnerhttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_9_Questions/Comments328--Week 9 Questions/Comments2008-03-20T00:58:54Z<p>Lmeissner: /* Dorothy Dunbar Bromley on Birth Control in the Depression */</p>
<hr />
<div>== "I Want You Women Up North to Know" by Tillie Olson ==<br />
<br />
In "I Want You Women Up North to Know" by Tillie Olson I found this line hilarious " ...she says that he prays and dreams of a another world...a heaven (which he does not know was brought to earth in 1917 in Russia, by workers like him)"...hind-sight is 20/20 right?- Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
I found this reading interesting but at the same time confusing. Tillie Olson is clearly attacking the women in the north who are buying the clothes that are being made, but its these women that are allowing the women she is writing about to have their jobs. Yes, their conditions are horrible and the pay is horrible, but thats not a reason to attack the other women I would think. I would also think that the depression, while it might have lessened in the Northern cities, was still affecting their lives, so her accusations seem to me to be unjustified.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
== Annelise Orleck, "Militant Housewives of the Depression" ==<br />
<br />
I was amazed to learn how organized and militant housewives were during the Great Depression. Prior to reading this week's reading, I didn't know people were able to actually find constructive ways of regaining a semblance of their previous way of life during the Great Depression. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I LOVED this reading! I enjoyed seeing how women reacted to some of the hardships of the depression in a more aggressive way. I found it interesting that Orleck mentions that the women who were speaking out weren't doing so because they wanted the attention but because they wanted to be able to fulfill their duties as wives and mothers, which fits into the idea of what a woman was supposed to be doing, making their efforts more acceptable in society. I had no idea that they were able to accomplish so much or that the movement of housewives was so widespread across the U.S.! These I think are definitely ones who, if I was a mother during this period, I would want my children to respect and look up to because they were fighting for something they believed so strongly in (even though I'd prefer to be something more than a housewife). -Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
This really was a fun article to read. I was very impressed at how these women managed to keep their life somewhat the same during the depression. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
== All Eleanor Roosevelt readings ==<br />
<br />
All of this week's readings about and created by Eleanor Roosevelt really confirmed history's seemingly high opinion of her. The fact that the Roosevelts' were able to constructively respond to all of their mail during the Great Depression is very admirable. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I thougth it was interesting that women actually took the time to write Eleanor Roosevelt about things that they desperately needed, like clothing and jobs for their husbands. Just thinking in today's world and if a depression happened now, I would think it pointless to write the first lady about what I desperately needed, just because I would think she for one probably would never even read the letter and two she probably wouldn't care much less help me. Yet so many women in the 1930's wrote her their depressing situations, I assume because they were just so desperate and no one else could help them so why couldn't the first lady. They probably thougtht too that Eleanor could influence her husband since he was the President to make him do something. Also article 5 and 6 in MP show that Eleanor did actually take recongnition of the problems during the depression and talked about the problems and spoke actively on many of the problems she saw.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
What I found interesting were the letters to the Roosevelt's and specifically Eleanor in both MAW and MPA. Like Michelle had said I wouldn't be writing to the first lady if there was a depression. Especially in today's society the letter would just get lost or thrown away. One of the letters did bother me a bit. I know it really shouldn't have but, the one about the little girl who wants roller blades.... to me its just so wrong. I know she is younger and doesn't understand what is going on, but it just really bugged me that she asked for roller blades when people are dieing of hunger, and are out of work and on the streets. Then there is this girl asking for roller blades because he friends are making fun of her. No matter what age you are things like that just bother me. Also wouldn't the parents maybe explain to their child that mommy and daddy are having a few problems financially? -- Amanda Taub<br />
'''(McClurken don't make fun of me to much in class, I like to be there when i am made fun of save a little for Tuesday).'''<br />
<br />
For me the most interesting letter to Eleanor Roosevelt was the second one. The woman thanked Roosevelt for her reply to the last letter, but then said she did not need charity just a loan, even sending in collateral she claimed was valuable. However, what bothers me here is not the fact that the first lady could not possibly begin to make individual loans to people, but the size of this woman's ego or pride. She claimed she gave up her rings which held the highest emotional value to her, this is not true. What holds the highest value in this woman's life is clearly her ability to save face, her pride. If she was truly desperate, and in such great need that she would ask a loan from a stranger, she should be willing to give up her greatest asset; that of her ego, and take the charity that the government has set up for her. I have noticed the same trend more subtly throughout the rest of the readings, what is causing this? Is it a few isolated cases or does this pride fit in with the overall atttidue of the day, or somehow into the middle class ideals we have talked so extensively about? --- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
== Meridel Lesueur, "Despair of Unemployed Women" ==<br />
<br />
Reading Meridel Lesueur's article really struck me. Just how starved the women were, and the endless sitting at the job bureau day after day. The description of some of their faces really made me feel a little sad. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I found this reading interesting because it showed that the middle class ideals, or what i guess could be described as middle class prejudice or maybe just denial in this case, still affected women even in this time of crisis. Where as before when the economy was good, women were not afforded the same opportunities as men (i.e. lower wages, lower glass ceilings, smaller scope of job opportunities), now in the depression women still arent afforded the same rights and opportunities as men (i.e. no flop houses, a cultural unwillingness to see women living in the parks, and charities only helping the deserving few). -- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
== Ann Marie Low's "The Dust Bowl" ==<br />
<br />
Ann Marie Low's "The Dust Bowl" was intriguing to read. Just how much dust piled up and how much they had to wash to keep their dishes, clothes, and house clean was unreal. I had always been told that there was 'a lot of dust,' but this article really put it in perspective. How did the people manage to live in it? I know that it said many babies and elderly died in it, but how did people live in it? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I really like the piece titled Dust Bowl.Finding out the things these people had to go through. The excessive cleaning that occurs before anything, all the hours put into cleaning are such wasted hours. I never really thought of it like this, all this time spent on the cleaning could have been used for finding a job or getting more food. The one thing that did give me a little relief was that Ann Marie Low, the girl writing this had time for leisure, she was able to go out to the movies, that even through this she was able to maintain some social life. Even though sometimes housekeeping did get in the way she was able to do things for her self. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
Ignoring the fact of the endless dust, life for this family seemed to be much better, as Amanda said the girl seemed to have time for leisure, and the ham, eggs, and bread seem like a feast compared to the rations of crackers described in the earlier readings of women in the cities. Was this true for the majority of rural families compared with those in the cities? Or is this a rare case? As an afterthought, I still havent decided if I would rather starve or live in all that dust, both sound unpleasant.----Landon Davis<br />
<br />
== Margaret Jarman Hagood's "The Life Cycle of a White Southern Farm Woman" ==<br />
<br />
Margaret Jarman Hagood's "The Life Cycle of a White Southern Farm Woman" was so depressing! I was reading it and toward the end I had to stop and just stare at the book. I never realized that a baby that close to birth who was so active could just... die like that. 11 days before birth! I read it allowed to my husband and our friend who was visiting and they both stared at me and asked "Why are you reading something so depressing!?!?" Does those kinds of death still happen in America today? I mean, that close to birth? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
This article bothered me a bit. Like Ashley I was shocked about the death of her baby so close to its birth but Margaret Hagood seemed to be extremely petty to me. She was annoyed because one of her children wasn't as pretty as she hoped and she just seemed annoyed that she couldn't have all the material things that she wanted. I just found her annoying because she seemed to not be upset because of the hardship of the depression but because she was worried that her daughter and that she, herself, wouldn't be viewed as pretty.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
== Genora Johnson Dollinger, "Women and Labor Militancy" ==<br />
<br />
Dollinger's essay on "Women and Labor Militancy" was interesting. I I had no idea some women took it so far and seriously in these union groups. Sure we've learned how they take a militant approuch, but the lady in this reading was beyond that. What I thought was so interesting about her was how she used her gender against the cops in order to get where and what she wanted. She knew as a women that the cops would not shoot her in the back like they would a man, and therefore marching herself right in there on these strikes helping to defend these men, as well as using a type of reverse psychology on the cops to try and get them to see their fight. Pretty smart. On top of that she is like, oh by the way I had TB while I was doing all of this. She had some guts. She had a lot of women back her up on these strikes and even though the cops did not shoot them like they may have done to men I wonder if any got arrested at least?--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
Dollinger wrote about "Women and Labor Militancy" in the 1930's. Women formed the Emergency Brigade as their form of activism, which at the time was very appreciated by the men it was helping. However, as women's roles in these positions became less necessary and demands were being met, their roles became less necessary. People quickly reverted back to their previous expectations and as it states on page 170 men began saying, "Well, you women did a wonderful job, but now your duty is back there getting those kids in school, getting the wash done, and regular meals again…" Though the women were helpful for that time, does it really show progress for women and their increasingly public roles if it can disappear as quickly as it can emerge? I think it shows how easily the situation of women can change within certain societal conditions, how fragile progress can be, and how easily it is to revert back to the default. The challenge then becomes not how to be more active and make progress at a certain time or under certain circumstances, but how to use all of these collectively to change the default. –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Carlotta Martin's "A Mexican-American Childhood during the Depression" ==<br />
<br />
In "A Mexican-American Childhood during the Depression" Carlotta Martin discusses what is like growing up in the barrio and how difficult life was during the Great Depression. She mentions that it was more common for children to be raised by their grandparents. Would this be in the sense that was it common for grandparents to live in the same households as their children and other extended family and for them to serve as we would see babysitters today? Or did the grandparents take their grandchildren, live separately, and give both parents a chance to work. Was this common within other ethnic groups or social classes as well? Or did it simply serve as an opportunity for the children to get an education as opposed to working to help their struggling families during the depression? –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
<br />
== Photo Essay ==<br />
Personally, I loved the Photo essay. I think that photographs are a really interesting way to show how things have changed from one era to the next and the pictures in this week's reading did just that. Seeing women in pants and with shorter hair on almost every girl was a neat thing to see because this had recently become a new fad. The photos are also a great way to visualize what we were talking about in class on Tuesday, including women working in men's jobs while they went off to war (like in the aviation plant photo) and joining and supporting unions (like in the auto workers' auxiliary photo). It kind of proves that all of this stuff really did happen which is beneficial when it seems kind of unreal that women wearing pants had been such a major controversy. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
== Dorothy Dunbar Bromley on Birth Control in the Depression ==<br />
It annoys me how it took an economic depression to make people realize how important birth control was. It would happen that way, people say how immoral it is until babies become an economic burden that they can't afford. I am glad, however, that they DID realize it was important though because the more children, the harsher the despression would've been. It is sad to see that the poorer people always were the ones having the most children, that is unfortunately the way it usually is.- Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
I agree with Emely Amaya's comment on the studies regarding the high number of births among poor people during the Great Depression. I was sort of wondering and hoping that studies such as those were the reason behind the repeal of prohibitions against the dissemination of information regarding birth control by AMA doctors. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Isnt it still true today that despite the wide availability and knowledge of birth control, the families that can not afford to have a child still are the ones who end up having the most children?--Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I have to ask the same question Landon does because wide availability and knowledge of birth control does not necessarily solve the problem. I'm not suggesting that the Depression did notincrease hardships or awareness for birth control. I think that the problem is more complicated. Perhaps the reasons are embedded in culture, or it may have more to do with the subservient status of women to men. In many cases the man dictates the use of birth control. I've read articles that suggest that young women would rather risk pregnancy that lose a boyfriend. Birth control only works if both partners are willing to use it.--LisaM<br />
<br />
When it takes a depression for people to finally realize that having lots of children is not a good idea it really only effects those that had the money to have children in the first place. The ones that cant afford to are still going to have them. The ones that limited children due to the depression were typically middle class families. It is sad, that it continues to be the families that cant afford children that are having such large numbers. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
== Lydia Mendoza recalls her career in the Depression ==<br />
I loved the Lydia Mendoza recollection. Her modesty was overwhelming, but at the same time she was able to effectively describe how tough the depression was on families, and especially on minorities. Having to play in the plaza for two nights in a row just to make up the rent for the week had to have been difficult and you can really understand why her mother was hesitant about letting her travel to go on the radio show. If I were her mother I probably would have done the same thing -- her daughter was earning her quite a bit in the plaza so why change that, right? At the same time, I think it was wonderful that the manager found her a sponsor - it's kind of romanticized really and the way a great success story should start. I also liked how, by reading Lydia's piece, you could tell that women were still trying to establish themselves alongside men in the music world (and life in general.) "It was a very pretty sight and very special because we were women and very young..." Her discussion of the plaza being filled entirely with groups of men playing their instruments just emphasizes how all cultures dealt with a gender struggle. --Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
== P’ing Yu, Racism among white CA Clubwomen, 1937 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Louise Mitchell, Denounces the “Slave Markets” where Domestics are Hired in NYC, 1940 ==<br />
<br />
It is so sad that so many young women had to stand on the street corners just to try to get work. I was surprised that domestic workers made up most of the country's job force, especially when it was a last resort job for women. Reading the piece about the domestic "slave markets" really showed how hard it was for women, especially African-American women, to get jobs. --Kellye Sorber</div>Lmeissnerhttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_9_Questions/Comments328--Week 9 Questions/Comments2008-03-20T00:57:55Z<p>Lmeissner: /* Dorothy Dunbar Bromley on Birth Control in the Depression */</p>
<hr />
<div>== "I Want You Women Up North to Know" by Tillie Olson ==<br />
<br />
In "I Want You Women Up North to Know" by Tillie Olson I found this line hilarious " ...she says that he prays and dreams of a another world...a heaven (which he does not know was brought to earth in 1917 in Russia, by workers like him)"...hind-sight is 20/20 right?- Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
I found this reading interesting but at the same time confusing. Tillie Olson is clearly attacking the women in the north who are buying the clothes that are being made, but its these women that are allowing the women she is writing about to have their jobs. Yes, their conditions are horrible and the pay is horrible, but thats not a reason to attack the other women I would think. I would also think that the depression, while it might have lessened in the Northern cities, was still affecting their lives, so her accusations seem to me to be unjustified.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
== Annelise Orleck, "Militant Housewives of the Depression" ==<br />
<br />
I was amazed to learn how organized and militant housewives were during the Great Depression. Prior to reading this week's reading, I didn't know people were able to actually find constructive ways of regaining a semblance of their previous way of life during the Great Depression. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I LOVED this reading! I enjoyed seeing how women reacted to some of the hardships of the depression in a more aggressive way. I found it interesting that Orleck mentions that the women who were speaking out weren't doing so because they wanted the attention but because they wanted to be able to fulfill their duties as wives and mothers, which fits into the idea of what a woman was supposed to be doing, making their efforts more acceptable in society. I had no idea that they were able to accomplish so much or that the movement of housewives was so widespread across the U.S.! These I think are definitely ones who, if I was a mother during this period, I would want my children to respect and look up to because they were fighting for something they believed so strongly in (even though I'd prefer to be something more than a housewife). -Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
This really was a fun article to read. I was very impressed at how these women managed to keep their life somewhat the same during the depression. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
== All Eleanor Roosevelt readings ==<br />
<br />
All of this week's readings about and created by Eleanor Roosevelt really confirmed history's seemingly high opinion of her. The fact that the Roosevelts' were able to constructively respond to all of their mail during the Great Depression is very admirable. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I thougth it was interesting that women actually took the time to write Eleanor Roosevelt about things that they desperately needed, like clothing and jobs for their husbands. Just thinking in today's world and if a depression happened now, I would think it pointless to write the first lady about what I desperately needed, just because I would think she for one probably would never even read the letter and two she probably wouldn't care much less help me. Yet so many women in the 1930's wrote her their depressing situations, I assume because they were just so desperate and no one else could help them so why couldn't the first lady. They probably thougtht too that Eleanor could influence her husband since he was the President to make him do something. Also article 5 and 6 in MP show that Eleanor did actually take recongnition of the problems during the depression and talked about the problems and spoke actively on many of the problems she saw.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
What I found interesting were the letters to the Roosevelt's and specifically Eleanor in both MAW and MPA. Like Michelle had said I wouldn't be writing to the first lady if there was a depression. Especially in today's society the letter would just get lost or thrown away. One of the letters did bother me a bit. I know it really shouldn't have but, the one about the little girl who wants roller blades.... to me its just so wrong. I know she is younger and doesn't understand what is going on, but it just really bugged me that she asked for roller blades when people are dieing of hunger, and are out of work and on the streets. Then there is this girl asking for roller blades because he friends are making fun of her. No matter what age you are things like that just bother me. Also wouldn't the parents maybe explain to their child that mommy and daddy are having a few problems financially? -- Amanda Taub<br />
'''(McClurken don't make fun of me to much in class, I like to be there when i am made fun of save a little for Tuesday).'''<br />
<br />
For me the most interesting letter to Eleanor Roosevelt was the second one. The woman thanked Roosevelt for her reply to the last letter, but then said she did not need charity just a loan, even sending in collateral she claimed was valuable. However, what bothers me here is not the fact that the first lady could not possibly begin to make individual loans to people, but the size of this woman's ego or pride. She claimed she gave up her rings which held the highest emotional value to her, this is not true. What holds the highest value in this woman's life is clearly her ability to save face, her pride. If she was truly desperate, and in such great need that she would ask a loan from a stranger, she should be willing to give up her greatest asset; that of her ego, and take the charity that the government has set up for her. I have noticed the same trend more subtly throughout the rest of the readings, what is causing this? Is it a few isolated cases or does this pride fit in with the overall atttidue of the day, or somehow into the middle class ideals we have talked so extensively about? --- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
== Meridel Lesueur, "Despair of Unemployed Women" ==<br />
<br />
Reading Meridel Lesueur's article really struck me. Just how starved the women were, and the endless sitting at the job bureau day after day. The description of some of their faces really made me feel a little sad. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I found this reading interesting because it showed that the middle class ideals, or what i guess could be described as middle class prejudice or maybe just denial in this case, still affected women even in this time of crisis. Where as before when the economy was good, women were not afforded the same opportunities as men (i.e. lower wages, lower glass ceilings, smaller scope of job opportunities), now in the depression women still arent afforded the same rights and opportunities as men (i.e. no flop houses, a cultural unwillingness to see women living in the parks, and charities only helping the deserving few). -- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
== Ann Marie Low's "The Dust Bowl" ==<br />
<br />
Ann Marie Low's "The Dust Bowl" was intriguing to read. Just how much dust piled up and how much they had to wash to keep their dishes, clothes, and house clean was unreal. I had always been told that there was 'a lot of dust,' but this article really put it in perspective. How did the people manage to live in it? I know that it said many babies and elderly died in it, but how did people live in it? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I really like the piece titled Dust Bowl.Finding out the things these people had to go through. The excessive cleaning that occurs before anything, all the hours put into cleaning are such wasted hours. I never really thought of it like this, all this time spent on the cleaning could have been used for finding a job or getting more food. The one thing that did give me a little relief was that Ann Marie Low, the girl writing this had time for leisure, she was able to go out to the movies, that even through this she was able to maintain some social life. Even though sometimes housekeeping did get in the way she was able to do things for her self. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
Ignoring the fact of the endless dust, life for this family seemed to be much better, as Amanda said the girl seemed to have time for leisure, and the ham, eggs, and bread seem like a feast compared to the rations of crackers described in the earlier readings of women in the cities. Was this true for the majority of rural families compared with those in the cities? Or is this a rare case? As an afterthought, I still havent decided if I would rather starve or live in all that dust, both sound unpleasant.----Landon Davis<br />
<br />
== Margaret Jarman Hagood's "The Life Cycle of a White Southern Farm Woman" ==<br />
<br />
Margaret Jarman Hagood's "The Life Cycle of a White Southern Farm Woman" was so depressing! I was reading it and toward the end I had to stop and just stare at the book. I never realized that a baby that close to birth who was so active could just... die like that. 11 days before birth! I read it allowed to my husband and our friend who was visiting and they both stared at me and asked "Why are you reading something so depressing!?!?" Does those kinds of death still happen in America today? I mean, that close to birth? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
This article bothered me a bit. Like Ashley I was shocked about the death of her baby so close to its birth but Margaret Hagood seemed to be extremely petty to me. She was annoyed because one of her children wasn't as pretty as she hoped and she just seemed annoyed that she couldn't have all the material things that she wanted. I just found her annoying because she seemed to not be upset because of the hardship of the depression but because she was worried that her daughter and that she, herself, wouldn't be viewed as pretty.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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== Genora Johnson Dollinger, "Women and Labor Militancy" ==<br />
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Dollinger's essay on "Women and Labor Militancy" was interesting. I I had no idea some women took it so far and seriously in these union groups. Sure we've learned how they take a militant approuch, but the lady in this reading was beyond that. What I thought was so interesting about her was how she used her gender against the cops in order to get where and what she wanted. She knew as a women that the cops would not shoot her in the back like they would a man, and therefore marching herself right in there on these strikes helping to defend these men, as well as using a type of reverse psychology on the cops to try and get them to see their fight. Pretty smart. On top of that she is like, oh by the way I had TB while I was doing all of this. She had some guts. She had a lot of women back her up on these strikes and even though the cops did not shoot them like they may have done to men I wonder if any got arrested at least?--Michelle M.<br />
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Dollinger wrote about "Women and Labor Militancy" in the 1930's. Women formed the Emergency Brigade as their form of activism, which at the time was very appreciated by the men it was helping. However, as women's roles in these positions became less necessary and demands were being met, their roles became less necessary. People quickly reverted back to their previous expectations and as it states on page 170 men began saying, "Well, you women did a wonderful job, but now your duty is back there getting those kids in school, getting the wash done, and regular meals again…" Though the women were helpful for that time, does it really show progress for women and their increasingly public roles if it can disappear as quickly as it can emerge? I think it shows how easily the situation of women can change within certain societal conditions, how fragile progress can be, and how easily it is to revert back to the default. The challenge then becomes not how to be more active and make progress at a certain time or under certain circumstances, but how to use all of these collectively to change the default. –Jessica Kilday<br />
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== Carlotta Martin's "A Mexican-American Childhood during the Depression" ==<br />
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In "A Mexican-American Childhood during the Depression" Carlotta Martin discusses what is like growing up in the barrio and how difficult life was during the Great Depression. She mentions that it was more common for children to be raised by their grandparents. Would this be in the sense that was it common for grandparents to live in the same households as their children and other extended family and for them to serve as we would see babysitters today? Or did the grandparents take their grandchildren, live separately, and give both parents a chance to work. Was this common within other ethnic groups or social classes as well? Or did it simply serve as an opportunity for the children to get an education as opposed to working to help their struggling families during the depression? –Jessica Kilday<br />
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== Photo Essay ==<br />
Personally, I loved the Photo essay. I think that photographs are a really interesting way to show how things have changed from one era to the next and the pictures in this week's reading did just that. Seeing women in pants and with shorter hair on almost every girl was a neat thing to see because this had recently become a new fad. The photos are also a great way to visualize what we were talking about in class on Tuesday, including women working in men's jobs while they went off to war (like in the aviation plant photo) and joining and supporting unions (like in the auto workers' auxiliary photo). It kind of proves that all of this stuff really did happen which is beneficial when it seems kind of unreal that women wearing pants had been such a major controversy. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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== Dorothy Dunbar Bromley on Birth Control in the Depression ==<br />
It annoys me how it took an economic depression to make people realize how important birth control was. It would happen that way, people say how immoral it is until babies become an economic burden that they can't afford. I am glad, however, that they DID realize it was important though because the more children, the harsher the despression would've been. It is sad to see that the poorer people always were the ones having the most children, that is unfortunately the way it usually is.- Emely Amaya<br />
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I agree with Emely Amaya's comment on the studies regarding the high number of births among poor people during the Great Depression. I was sort of wondering and hoping that studies such as those were the reason behind the repeal of prohibitions against the dissemination of information regarding birth control by AMA doctors. --Justin Mattos<br />
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Isnt it still true today that despite the wide availability and knowledge of birth control, the families that can not afford to have a child still are the ones who end up having the most children?--Landon Davis<br />
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I have to ask the same question Landon does because wide availability and knowledge of birth control does not necessarily solve the problem. I'm not suggesting that the Depression did increase hardships or awareness for birth control. I think that the problem is more complicated. Perhaps the reasons are embedded in culture, or it may have more to do with the subservient status of women to men. In many cases the man dictates the use of birth control. I've read articles that suggest that young women would rather risk pregnancy that lose a boyfriend. Birth control only works if both partners are willing to use it.--LisaM<br />
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When it takes a depression for people to finally realize that having lots of children is not a good idea it really only effects those that had the money to have children in the first place. The ones that cant afford to are still going to have them. The ones that limited children due to the depression were typically middle class families. It is sad, that it continues to be the families that cant afford children that are having such large numbers. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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== Lydia Mendoza recalls her career in the Depression ==<br />
I loved the Lydia Mendoza recollection. Her modesty was overwhelming, but at the same time she was able to effectively describe how tough the depression was on families, and especially on minorities. Having to play in the plaza for two nights in a row just to make up the rent for the week had to have been difficult and you can really understand why her mother was hesitant about letting her travel to go on the radio show. If I were her mother I probably would have done the same thing -- her daughter was earning her quite a bit in the plaza so why change that, right? At the same time, I think it was wonderful that the manager found her a sponsor - it's kind of romanticized really and the way a great success story should start. I also liked how, by reading Lydia's piece, you could tell that women were still trying to establish themselves alongside men in the music world (and life in general.) "It was a very pretty sight and very special because we were women and very young..." Her discussion of the plaza being filled entirely with groups of men playing their instruments just emphasizes how all cultures dealt with a gender struggle. --Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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== P’ing Yu, Racism among white CA Clubwomen, 1937 ==<br />
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== Louise Mitchell, Denounces the “Slave Markets” where Domestics are Hired in NYC, 1940 ==<br />
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It is so sad that so many young women had to stand on the street corners just to try to get work. I was surprised that domestic workers made up most of the country's job force, especially when it was a last resort job for women. Reading the piece about the domestic "slave markets" really showed how hard it was for women, especially African-American women, to get jobs. --Kellye Sorber</div>Lmeissnerhttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_8_Questions/Comments328--Week 8 Questions/Comments2008-03-13T03:33:04Z<p>Lmeissner: </p>
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<div>THE ONLINE READING IS LOCATED HERE: [http://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/docs/MP-Reading.pdf Week 8 Reading]<br />
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== Kennedy's "'But We Would Never Talk about it': The Structures of Lesbian Discretion in South Dakota, 1928-1933" ==<br />
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In this week's reading of "'But We Would Never Talk about it': The Structures of Lesbian Discretion in South Dakota, 1928-1933" by Elizabeth Lapovsky Kennedy, the idea that struck me the deepest was the thought that the now extinct sensibility that existed during the first half of the twentieth century actually helped a minority people. Having unofficial social mores and a respect for others' privacy allowed for lesbians who were white to live productive lives as long as they lived according to same social standards that ruled the lives of heterosexual women. This custom appears to have created a type of equality that may or may not exist today. Given the fact that the majority of the things that many homosexual couples are fighting for today did not yet exist for heterosexual couples, it would seem as if during this point in time, lesbianism was treated as an extreme eccentricity that should be controlled out of respect for one's neighbors. --Justin Mattos<br />
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I did not find it as surprising that is was so possible for Julia Boyer Reinstein's family to accept her lesbianism. While I am sure that her mother and father would have preferred to have a son-in-law, that the father enjoyed not having to entertain potential male suitors and having someone who would cover up his extramaterial affairs should not be overlooked. In a certain sense, I think what made her lesbianism easier to accept than if Julia Boyer Reinstein had been a homosexual male was that the society in which she lived was patriarchal and thus the desires of the father won out over the desires of the mother, and her father really did not care whether she enjoyed a heterosexual marriage or not. --Justin Mattos<br />
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So then does the tying of sexuality with politics and identity mischaracterize people and their politics, concerns, and histories? --Justin Mattos<br />
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After reading "But we would never talk about it" I didn't feel surprised about any of it. Being a lesbian back then was not defined as it was today. It was common for women to confide in each other and sleep in the same bed and have an intimate relationship. However, a lot of people did not know what was really going on behind closed doors, which I feel is a reason why no one every talked about it. The only thing that did surprise me was that her parents were ok with it all. There is a passage that talks about how her mother would make a comment about how she wasn't with this one boy, but in the end her being a lesbian didn't bother her, she was actually very polite to Dorothy. In Julia's father's case, it didn't surprise me so much after there were comments made that he could have all of her attention. He didn't need to entertain possible son - in- laws, however I also feel like he used Julia because she was gay. By giving Julia his consent and accepting her it keep their relationship close, however he might of done this because it covered up all of his affairs. My question was did Julia ever see her father and her relationship this way, or was she just happy that her father accepted her? -- Amanda Taub<br />
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The second part that I thought was the most interesting was her encounter with Amelia Earhart. It shows how cautious girls were towards other girls. I feel that these women were so unsure about themselves that they really had to question others more. Especially since this was one of her earlier encounters, it shows that in the beginning Julia was very timid about her sexuality. Since she was shy about her self, she wasn't going to go out and put the moves on every girl, especially not Earhart. But as she gets older her "sense" gets stronger, through all the trips she took with her father. She could tell which woman was the "odd" one of the bunch, I also feel that over the years other women started to feel a little more comfortable with being gay and showing it a little more. Which made it easier for women like Julia to point out the "odd" girl. My only question was were there women like today who went through these phases of lesbians and then just turned straight and marry? Or was it because society was starting to see lesbians for what they were and women felt pressured to become straight live the way society wants them to? -- Amanda Taub<br />
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Kennedy uses the case of Julia to discuss the discretion of lesbianism in the early 1900’s. There were, however, many other aspects to Julia’s identity than just her sexuality. This is pointed on page 415, when Kennedy states “she came into her womanhood as a lesbian, as a college student, as the daughter of a father who was prominent citizen and business owner, and as the daughter of a mother who was strongly independent yet part of an established small-town protestant family.” Given this, the discretion of Julia’s sexuality may have been because it would have been a trait that overshadowed the others; it may have become her only identifying factor in the public eye as opposed to just one of many. Could there have been any other traits during this time that people felt the need to cover-up, other than sexuality? And how true is this still today? --Jessica Kilday<br />
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Lesbianism wasn’t something that could be discriminated against publicly; this is in contrast to other aspects of one’s identity such as gender or race, which could once have been discriminated against legally. Yet Julia still feared that if she was obvious about how she felt then she would not be able to receive all the benefits and privileges of her class. Which would be harder to deal with, discrimination by law or discrimination by society? --Jessica Kilday<br />
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I would be afraid that anything that was considered not "normal" would be discriminated against. Just because it wasn't something typically a reason to discriminate against someone doesn't mean that people wont. Most people don't like what they don't understand. --Kellye Sorber <br />
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All I have to say is, wow. I know there are still a lot of problems with accepting lesbianism today, but to read that a father accepted it and used it to his advantage was incredibly. I feel that even lesbianism today is kept quite because most people seem not to always accept it, however not as much as the 1920s and 1930s. There are gay rights movements and things like ‘gay day’ at theme or amusement parks, which to me shouts “we accept all people of sexual preferences.” That could also just be a money marketing scam… However, I really did enjoy this piece by Elizabeth Kennedy because going through the public school system I had friends that I knew were lesbians, but we never talked about it, not even when they would have a break up with their girlfriend. If there was a break-up we would take the friend for ice-cream or something, but nothing was ever said about the situation. –Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I really enjoyed reading "But We Would Never Talk About It." However, I was not at all surprised about the fact that these women did not talk about their sexual preferences and experiences with other women or their parents, mostly because I still have the impression that while during this time period it was becoming more acceptable for sex to be discusses it still wasn't really done. And since sex in general wasn't talked about, why would a varying preference be talked about? Also while I found it amazing that her mother and father supported her and were ok with her sexual choice, I was also disgusted by the fact the father would use that to his advantage so he could continue his extramarital affairs! I do have to wonder, was she really ok with covering for her dad in these instances, or did she have any resentment towards him for using her in this way and if her nonchalant attitude towards it was because it was simply how she dealt with those feelings?- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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In Unequal Sisters, I found the quote "You don't know if someone is a lesbian unless you've slept with her" to be interesting. I'm not surprised that women who were lesbians didn't discuss their sexuality openly but why was it started that way? Besides religious aspects, where did the term lesbian or gay gain its percieved connotation? I feel like it was only more recently that males and females who were gay felt safe in taking pride of their sexuality. -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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I thought it was creepy reading Julia's story and how her father thought of her daughter as the "apple of his eye". It was weird to me that he subconsciously made a deal with her not to exploit her lesiban affairs as long as she kept quiet about his extramarital activities. Was this just one account or a more "normal" occurence at the time? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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I thought all the reading for this week were very interesting. I really like the "But We Never Talk about It" article by Elizabeth Kennedy. I thought the story about Julia meeting Amelia Earhart was facinating. It is the first story we have about a famous woman who was a lesbain and managed to not let that knowledge affect her life or hinder her attempts at greatness. - Christine W.<br />
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== Dr. Carlton C. Frederick on Nymphomania, 1907 ==<br />
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I pity the most definitely unsatisfied woman married to that Dr. Carlton C. Frederick! His unqualified theories on woman were as sexist as Freud's of that same time period (the grotesque double standard was very popular then)! This article compared to the survey's of Dr. Mosher were so starkly different, I wonder what kind of effect the controversy had over the general population-and more importantly over the general female population? His assertive views on Nymphomaniacs has actually made me question the sexism based around that "disorder"-I would be interested in further study of the history of Nymphomania as recognized by physicians and society. Also in consideration of mental disorders: this article is part of the great slew of material that prolonged the accepted myth that homosexuality is a mental illness well into the early 70s in American. I don't know how doctors could do it back then- to use unsubstantiated views as evidence for such sexist publications! ~~Jackie Reed<br />
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I agree with Jackie that Dr. Frederick was a wack job! Where on earth did he get his information from. It really makes you wonder how many doctors in those days actually did any kind of research or if they were simply stuck on a certain view of women and because they were a doctor they felt that gave them authority and validation to what their theory on the female and sex was.--Michelle M.<br />
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I agree with Jackie about the Dr. Frederick essay. My question is: Was Frederick saying that nymphomania in women, was when they acheived the same level of sexuality and deisre that men had? Or was it on some completely different level? Also I found it disturbing, and almost funny how he so easily bridged a gap between masturbation and pedophelia.----Landon Davis<br />
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I flat out laughed when I read the beginning of "The Manifestations of Nymphomania." What I thought was so interesting about this reading, besides the ideology that if women liked sex as much as men the world would be one giant brothel, was that this was documented at the turn of the century. I think it's a good example of the mentality some conservatives were trying to hold on to as the "new woman" burst onto the scene. I just didn't really understand his distinction between "insane" and the "not insane." Were the insane and mildly insane nymphomaniacs the ones that went into bars and started flirting with men, etc? -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I found Carlton C. Fredericks article amusing at the same time it was irritating. It was amusing to me because of the way he approached the subject yet irritating because of its sexism. He seemed to imply that only insane or mildly insane women would likely turn to Nymphomania. I also find it interesting that he said women turned to other women to achieve satisfaction, wouldn't it then follow the logical path of his thought that to rectify this husbands should focus on more than just their sexual pleasure?(I'm not saying I agree with his thought process). Also, is he saying that men can't have nymphomania and that its an aliment strictly suffered by women?- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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== Mosher Survey, 1892-1913 ==<br />
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There were several parts of the reading off the wiki that fit in perfectly with the companionate marriage we discussed in class today. Most noticeably the second passage from extracts from the Mosher Survey, respondent 10 was qouted as "I think for man and woman married from love, it may be used temperately, as one of the highest manifestations of love." This passage exemplifies the break from the repressive victorian era ideals of marriage, that women should not enjoy sex, and that it should be used primarily for reproduction. Another example was the second letter to Sanger, the man was asking for details of contraception, not for (entirely) selfish reasons, he seemed genuinely concerned about his wife's welfare and happiness. ----Landon Davis<br />
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I was surprised after reading the "Extracts from the Mosher Survey, 1892-1913" because I did not realize that it seemed that most women did not have knowledge of sexual physiology before marriage. I'm guessing most of the men knew though. I think the 'birds and the bees' was mostly explained by my teachers when I was in 4th or 5th grade, or around age 9 or 10. Times have changed considerably, but I wonder how many U.S. females are raised in such a way still that they do not know much about it. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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So, as everyone knows, I hate the idea of using Lysol as a means of contraception. As a result, reading the one interview with Respondent 44 made me cringe. Bichloride? Really? I'm assuming they used the mercury compound since I saw another interviewee discuss it and I almost fell over. That stuff is dangerous so it astounded me that it had "no effect" as she stated. It never ceases to amaze me the lengths to which people would go to prevent pregnancies in the early 20th century. It was interesting to read all of the interviews though and compare and contrast them. The differences were slight because the years were relatively close together, but the shifts in belief about the purposes of intercourse emphasized that shift from a "sex is for male pleasure and reproduction only" world to a "women can like it too" sort of atmosphere. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I agree with Kelly, it is crazy what women will do to prevent pregnancy. How could you put yourself in danger just so you dont have children. I know that childbirth was considered not always safe but really, why would you do something even worse to yourself? I too was impressed by the change in the interviews, things have to progress. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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After reading the respondents from Mosher I was surprised to find out how many women really knew nothing about sex once they were married. I knew that it was somthing not talked about, but to be a women just married and not knowing what sex even was had to be scary and maybe even confusing to them. Did the husbands know though? What I also thought was interesting about their resoponses was that those who did try some kind of means to prevent pregnancy, when asked if their health was effected they all said no. The things they used didn't sound like very safe things, but what I've come to realize by these readings this week is that women seemed to be desperate for anything to have some kind of control over conception, but were the men just as desperate in hopes that something would emerge to prevent pregnancy once there were so many children already in the family too?--Michelle M.<br />
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I also found the readings from the Wiki very interesting! I was slightly shocked at some of the details in the "Extracts from the Mosher survey: 1892-1913". Mostly I was surprised at how long some of these couples waited before they had sex after marrying! There was one woman who said that their first time having sex was 5 months after they were married! I found this surprising because most married couples are simply expected to do that on their wedding night. And like Kelly I was shocked at the items they used to attempt to control pregnancies and then claimed that they had no physical affect on them when it should have.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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The fact that so many of us are astounded at the information in the Mosher surveys is an indicator at how far we have come. In my recent interview with two 81 year old women, it revealed that the discussion of sex was never discussed between the mothers and daughters. One of the women became a nurse after high school and received information on the topic in her anatomy class.--LisaM <br />
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I found "Extracts from the Mosher Survey, 1892-1913" humorous. Most of these women did not know much about the female body and not anything about the male reproduction system. Most pregnancy were an accident with a couple of exceptions. The usual types of birth control were used with no noted side effects. I think all the women said that reproduction was the main reason for sexual intercourse while the last interview , held in 1913, said that sex was uplifting like music. The number of times per week/month these women had intercourse varied. Would they have told the truth? -Nikole Wellman<br />
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In the document “Extracts form the Mosher Survey.” it didn’t surprise me to hear that most women didn’t know much about men physiology. Sex was not an open topic to talk about. Women then were taught to wait till marriage and that intercourse was only meant to please men and have children. –Ashley Scutari<br />
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== Letters to Margaret Sanger, 1920s ==<br />
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After reading the online reading something that stuck out to me the most was the letters to Margaret Sanger. I found it surprising that men and women were actually staying away from their spouses because they don't want anymore children. Because birth control was not offered to women, and especially women who lived in rural areas, it was ruining marriages. In letter number 4 the wife was actually thinking about their financial stability knowing they can not have another child and all the husband wants is sex not really caring about the situation. This whole concept of the companion family caused higher expectations, however in these letters the women and or men mention that they love their spouse dearly but because they don't want to reproduce tears them apart. If there was such a big problem with divorce rates increasing and infidelity then why wasn't this taken into account? Is it because people are just to afraid to talk about sex? -- Amanda Taub<br />
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When reading the letters to Margaret Sanger about birth control I kind of asked the same question Amanda did on why wasn't it taken into account that divorce rates increasing was really possibly due to infidelity which was essentially caused by fear of having sex in result of having children. Therefore birth control would really possibly save marriage, however I don't think it is because people were afraid to talk about sex even though it wasn't talked about but, instead maybe what they really wanted was to be able to have sex freely without the worry of getting pregnant, and birth control would allow a married couple to have control over how many children they wanted. Maybe they thought, this thought was a scary or selfish thing to even think or want becasue for so long people just had children, but because the world was changing there was just no need for families with 7 to 10 children anymore.--Michelle M. <br />
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The letters to Margaret Sanger about the need for birth control were extremely interesting. I thought it was strange how women assumed they would just magically know how to not have children once they were married. Also, I wondered if married couples not having sex so as to not have any more children led to affairs outside the marriage. Clearly, there was no birth control for any type of sexual relationship but I get the feeling that these people writing in thought that extramarital affairs couldn’t result in children. What did prostitutes do for birth control? – Cat Debelius<br />
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Cat had a great point. I read once that prostitutes would take a "potion" to prevent pregnancy. Basically the same method as other women.... Pessaries, maybe abortion. -- Nikole Wellman<br />
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The people who wrote these letters sound so desperate. They lived in a time where the companionate marriage seemed to burden the women with an emotional and economic dilemma; namely, the lack of intimate relations with their spouse could inhibit or destroy their marriage, but so could the economic and physical burdens that resulted from additional children. When I read these letters, I wondered how many women were pushed to self aborting because of no other remedy.--LisaM <br />
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I agree with Amanda, Michelle and Cat. I found the letters to Margaret Sanger Morose. All the letters were from married men or women wanting to prevent conception. Societies views and laws regarding birth control was ruining relationships and marriages. I do feel compassion towards the men writing to Sanger about their wives health. Would this be a compassionate marriage? -- Nikole Wellman<br />
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In “Letters to Margaret Sanger, Birth-Control Advocate,” I agree with the third letter from a mother of six children. She should be allowed to use birth control for a few reasons. Financially she cannot afford to have another child, she doesn’t have anymore time to take care of more children, and birth control will help save her marriage. Her husband would rather stay away from her to avoid having another child. –Ashley Scutari <br />
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== Blanchard and Manasses discuss Ideals and Problems of Modern Marriage, 1930 ==<br />
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I agree with Landon and also saw many parallels between the discussion of the companionate family in class and also in society today. Blanchard and Manasses' discussion of courtship points out that men and women were able to "become intimately acquainted" before marriage and discuss openly and equally about their opinions of married life before they were married. The notion that men and women must be compatible personalities, working together as partners in all areas demonstrates the new ideal. Yet there are still hidden facets of Victorian ideals engrained into the companionate marriage. The "lurking fear that she may seem too passionate, and her husband may suspect what still seems to her dreadful secret, she cannot give herself up to free enjoyment of his love," still alludes to the idea that women are not supposed to enjoy sex and when they do there is something morally wrong with them. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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I also saw a parallel between Blanchard and Manasses' discussion and society's ideals today. Sex education, and the lack thereof, is still a problem. Many schools still strictly follow an abstinence only program and students are left uneducated about where to go for family planning options. In many cases women still grow up experiencing "conditioned responses toward sex" in which parents have punished any form of sexual expression. The experiences of women described in this reading (anxiety, embarressment, guilt) caused by society's ideals still strongly exist. Their discussion was a liberal view and today this view would be considered conservative but how much have the ideals of women's sexuality changed from the early 20th century? -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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The discussion of “modern marriage” was really interesting to me. I find it horrifying that ideals of companionship didn’t exist before this time. Even in this essay, there is a part where Phyllis Blanchard and Carolyn Manassas question what a companion marriage may mean for the future once sexual desire fades. I just found it interesting that eve they are not true believers in companionship. – Cat Debelius<br />
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== Malcom Bissell on birth control activism in PA, 1925 ==<br />
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Malcom Bissell’s essay on birth control discusses how small group meetings in people’s home might be the most effect way of disseminating birth control information. I think this is very telling of society’s views at the time. Clearly, birth control was wanted and necessary, but there was such a social stigma and controversy over using it that people didn’t want to be publicly seen as seeking out information. – Cat Debelius<br />
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I also thought the article "Breaking the Silence" by Yolanda Leyva was interesting. It was surprising to me that the Catholic Church was one place where the lesbian women could be themselves. I would have though that the church would have severely disapproved of such behavior. Did they just not know that by segregating the women they were encouraging this behavior or were the women just using the circumstances to their advantage? - Christine Wuebker</div>Lmeissnerhttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_8_Questions/Comments328--Week 8 Questions/Comments2008-03-13T03:28:36Z<p>Lmeissner: </p>
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<div>THE ONLINE READING IS LOCATED HERE: [http://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/docs/MP-Reading.pdf Week 8 Reading]<br />
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== Kennedy's "'But We Would Never Talk about it': The Structures of Lesbian Discretion in South Dakota, 1928-1933" ==<br />
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In this week's reading of "'But We Would Never Talk about it': The Structures of Lesbian Discretion in South Dakota, 1928-1933" by Elizabeth Lapovsky Kennedy, the idea that struck me the deepest was the thought that the now extinct sensibility that existed during the first half of the twentieth century actually helped a minority people. Having unofficial social mores and a respect for others' privacy allowed for lesbians who were white to live productive lives as long as they lived according to same social standards that ruled the lives of heterosexual women. This custom appears to have created a type of equality that may or may not exist today. Given the fact that the majority of the things that many homosexual couples are fighting for today did not yet exist for heterosexual couples, it would seem as if during this point in time, lesbianism was treated as an extreme eccentricity that should be controlled out of respect for one's neighbors. --Justin Mattos<br />
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I did not find it as surprising that is was so possible for Julia Boyer Reinstein's family to accept her lesbianism. While I am sure that her mother and father would have preferred to have a son-in-law, that the father enjoyed not having to entertain potential male suitors and having someone who would cover up his extramaterial affairs should not be overlooked. In a certain sense, I think what made her lesbianism easier to accept than if Julia Boyer Reinstein had been a homosexual male was that the society in which she lived was patriarchal and thus the desires of the father won out over the desires of the mother, and her father really did not care whether she enjoyed a heterosexual marriage or not. --Justin Mattos<br />
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So then does the tying of sexuality with politics and identity mischaracterize people and their politics, concerns, and histories? --Justin Mattos<br />
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After reading "But we would never talk about it" I didn't feel surprised about any of it. Being a lesbian back then was not defined as it was today. It was common for women to confide in each other and sleep in the same bed and have an intimate relationship. However, a lot of people did not know what was really going on behind closed doors, which I feel is a reason why no one every talked about it. The only thing that did surprise me was that her parents were ok with it all. There is a passage that talks about how her mother would make a comment about how she wasn't with this one boy, but in the end her being a lesbian didn't bother her, she was actually very polite to Dorothy. In Julia's father's case, it didn't surprise me so much after there were comments made that he could have all of her attention. He didn't need to entertain possible son - in- laws, however I also feel like he used Julia because she was gay. By giving Julia his consent and accepting her it keep their relationship close, however he might of done this because it covered up all of his affairs. My question was did Julia ever see her father and her relationship this way, or was she just happy that her father accepted her? -- Amanda Taub<br />
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The second part that I thought was the most interesting was her encounter with Amelia Earhart. It shows how cautious girls were towards other girls. I feel that these women were so unsure about themselves that they really had to question others more. Especially since this was one of her earlier encounters, it shows that in the beginning Julia was very timid about her sexuality. Since she was shy about her self, she wasn't going to go out and put the moves on every girl, especially not Earhart. But as she gets older her "sense" gets stronger, through all the trips she took with her father. She could tell which woman was the "odd" one of the bunch, I also feel that over the years other women started to feel a little more comfortable with being gay and showing it a little more. Which made it easier for women like Julia to point out the "odd" girl. My only question was were there women like today who went through these phases of lesbians and then just turned straight and marry? Or was it because society was starting to see lesbians for what they were and women felt pressured to become straight live the way society wants them to? -- Amanda Taub<br />
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Kennedy uses the case of Julia to discuss the discretion of lesbianism in the early 1900’s. There were, however, many other aspects to Julia’s identity than just her sexuality. This is pointed on page 415, when Kennedy states “she came into her womanhood as a lesbian, as a college student, as the daughter of a father who was prominent citizen and business owner, and as the daughter of a mother who was strongly independent yet part of an established small-town protestant family.” Given this, the discretion of Julia’s sexuality may have been because it would have been a trait that overshadowed the others; it may have become her only identifying factor in the public eye as opposed to just one of many. Could there have been any other traits during this time that people felt the need to cover-up, other than sexuality? And how true is this still today? --Jessica Kilday<br />
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Lesbianism wasn’t something that could be discriminated against publicly; this is in contrast to other aspects of one’s identity such as gender or race, which could once have been discriminated against legally. Yet Julia still feared that if she was obvious about how she felt then she would not be able to receive all the benefits and privileges of her class. Which would be harder to deal with, discrimination by law or discrimination by society? --Jessica Kilday<br />
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I would be afraid that anything that was considered not "normal" would be discriminated against. Just because it wasn't something typically a reason to discriminate against someone doesn't mean that people wont. Most people don't like what they don't understand. --Kellye Sorber <br />
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All I have to say is, wow. I know there are still a lot of problems with accepting lesbianism today, but to read that a father accepted it and used it to his advantage was incredibly. I feel that even lesbianism today is kept quite because most people seem not to always accept it, however not as much as the 1920s and 1930s. There are gay rights movements and things like ‘gay day’ at theme or amusement parks, which to me shouts “we accept all people of sexual preferences.” That could also just be a money marketing scam… However, I really did enjoy this piece by Elizabeth Kennedy because going through the public school system I had friends that I knew were lesbians, but we never talked about it, not even when they would have a break up with their girlfriend. If there was a break-up we would take the friend for ice-cream or something, but nothing was ever said about the situation. –Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I really enjoyed reading "But We Would Never Talk About It." However, I was not at all surprised about the fact that these women did not talk about their sexual preferences and experiences with other women or their parents, mostly because I still have the impression that while during this time period it was becoming more acceptable for sex to be discusses it still wasn't really done. And since sex in general wasn't talked about, why would a varying preference be talked about? Also while I found it amazing that her mother and father supported her and were ok with her sexual choice, I was also disgusted by the fact the father would use that to his advantage so he could continue his extramarital affairs! I do have to wonder, was she really ok with covering for her dad in these instances, or did she have any resentment towards him for using her in this way and if her nonchalant attitude towards it was because it was simply how she dealt with those feelings?- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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In Unequal Sisters, I found the quote "You don't know if someone is a lesbian unless you've slept with her" to be interesting. I'm not surprised that women who were lesbians didn't discuss their sexuality openly but why was it started that way? Besides religious aspects, where did the term lesbian or gay gain its percieved connotation? I feel like it was only more recently that males and females who were gay felt safe in taking pride of their sexuality. -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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I thought it was creepy reading Julia's story and how her father thought of her daughter as the "apple of his eye". It was weird to me that he subconsciously made a deal with her not to exploit her lesiban affairs as long as she kept quiet about his extramarital activities. Was this just one account or a more "normal" occurence at the time? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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I thought all the reading for this week were very interesting. I really like the "But We Never Talk about It" article by Elizabeth Kennedy. I thought the story about Julia meeting Amelia Earhart was facinating. It is the first story we have about a famous woman who was a lesbain and managed to not let that knowledge affect her life or hinder her attempts at greatness. - Christine W.<br />
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== Dr. Carlton C. Frederick on Nymphomania, 1907 ==<br />
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I pity the most definitely unsatisfied woman married to that Dr. Carlton C. Frederick! His unqualified theories on woman were as sexist as Freud's of that same time period (the grotesque double standard was very popular then)! This article compared to the survey's of Dr. Mosher were so starkly different, I wonder what kind of effect the controversy had over the general population-and more importantly over the general female population? His assertive views on Nymphomaniacs has actually made me question the sexism based around that "disorder"-I would be interested in further study of the history of Nymphomania as recognized by physicians and society. Also in consideration of mental disorders: this article is part of the great slew of material that prolonged the accepted myth that homosexuality is a mental illness well into the early 70s in American. I don't know how doctors could do it back then- to use unsubstantiated views as evidence for such sexist publications! ~~Jackie Reed<br />
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I agree with Jackie that Dr. Frederick was a wack job! Where on earth did he get his information from. It really makes you wonder how many doctors in those days actually did any kind of research or if they were simply stuck on a certain view of women and because they were a doctor they felt that gave them authority and validation to what their theory on the female and sex was.--Michelle M.<br />
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I agree with Jackie about the Dr. Frederick essay. My question is: Was Frederick saying that nymphomania in women, was when they acheived the same level of sexuality and deisre that men had? Or was it on some completely different level? Also I found it disturbing, and almost funny how he so easily bridged a gap between masturbation and pedophelia.----Landon Davis<br />
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I flat out laughed when I read the beginning of "The Manifestations of Nymphomania." What I thought was so interesting about this reading, besides the ideology that if women liked sex as much as men the world would be one giant brothel, was that this was documented at the turn of the century. I think it's a good example of the mentality some conservatives were trying to hold on to as the "new woman" burst onto the scene. I just didn't really understand his distinction between "insane" and the "not insane." Were the insane and mildly insane nymphomaniacs the ones that went into bars and started flirting with men, etc? -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I found Carlton C. Fredericks article amusing at the same time it was irritating. It was amusing to me because of the way he approached the subject yet irritating because of its sexism. He seemed to imply that only insane or mildly insane women would likely turn to Nymphomania. I also find it interesting that he said women turned to other women to achieve satisfaction, wouldn't it then follow the logical path of his thought that to rectify this husbands should focus on more than just their sexual pleasure?(I'm not saying I agree with his thought process). Also, is he saying that men can't have nymphomania and that its an aliment strictly suffered by women?- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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== Mosher Survey, 1892-1913 ==<br />
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There were several parts of the reading off the wiki that fit in perfectly with the companionate marriage we discussed in class today. Most noticeably the second passage from extracts from the Mosher Survey, respondent 10 was qouted as "I think for man and woman married from love, it may be used temperately, as one of the highest manifestations of love." This passage exemplifies the break from the repressive victorian era ideals of marriage, that women should not enjoy sex, and that it should be used primarily for reproduction. Another example was the second letter to Sanger, the man was asking for details of contraception, not for (entirely) selfish reasons, he seemed genuinely concerned about his wife's welfare and happiness. ----Landon Davis<br />
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I was surprised after reading the "Extracts from the Mosher Survey, 1892-1913" because I did not realize that it seemed that most women did not have knowledge of sexual physiology before marriage. I'm guessing most of the men knew though. I think the 'birds and the bees' was mostly explained by my teachers when I was in 4th or 5th grade, or around age 9 or 10. Times have changed considerably, but I wonder how many U.S. females are raised in such a way still that they do not know much about it. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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So, as everyone knows, I hate the idea of using Lysol as a means of contraception. As a result, reading the one interview with Respondent 44 made me cringe. Bichloride? Really? I'm assuming they used the mercury compound since I saw another interviewee discuss it and I almost fell over. That stuff is dangerous so it astounded me that it had "no effect" as she stated. It never ceases to amaze me the lengths to which people would go to prevent pregnancies in the early 20th century. It was interesting to read all of the interviews though and compare and contrast them. The differences were slight because the years were relatively close together, but the shifts in belief about the purposes of intercourse emphasized that shift from a "sex is for male pleasure and reproduction only" world to a "women can like it too" sort of atmosphere. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I agree with Kelly, it is crazy what women will do to prevent pregnancy. How could you put yourself in danger just so you dont have children. I know that childbirth was considered not always safe but really, why would you do something even worse to yourself? I too was impressed by the change in the interviews, things have to progress. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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After reading the respondents from Mosher I was surprised to find out how many women really knew nothing about sex once they were married. I knew that it was somthing not talked about, but to be a women just married and not knowing what sex even was had to be scary and maybe even confusing to them. Did the husbands know though? What I also thought was interesting about their resoponses was that those who did try some kind of means to prevent pregnancy, when asked if their health was effected they all said no. The things they used didn't sound like very safe things, but what I've come to realize by these readings this week is that women seemed to be desperate for anything to have some kind of control over conception, but were the men just as desperate in hopes that something would emerge to prevent pregnancy once there were so many children already in the family too?--Michelle M.<br />
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I also found the readings from the Wiki very interesting! I was slightly shocked at some of the details in the "Extracts from the Mosher survey: 1892-1913". Mostly I was surprised at how long some of these couples waited before they had sex after marrying! There was one woman who said that their first time having sex was 5 months after they were married! I found this surprising because most married couples are simply expected to do that on their wedding night. And like Kelly I was shocked at the items they used to attempt to control pregnancies and then claimed that they had no physical affect on them when it should have.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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The fact that so many of us are astounded at the information in the Mosher surveys is an indicator at how far we have come. In my recent interview with two 81 year old women, it revealed that the discussion of sex was never discussed between the mothers and daughters. One of the women became a nurse after high school and received information on the topic in her anatomy class.--LisaM <br />
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I found "Extracts from the Mosher Survey, 1892-1913" humorous. Most of these women did not know much about the female body and not anything about the male reproduction system. Most pregnancy were an accident with a couple of exceptions. The usual types of birth control were used with no noted side effects. I think all the women said that reproduction was the main reason for sexual intercourse while the last interview , held in 1913, said that sex was uplifting like music. The number of times per week/month these women had intercourse varied. Would they have told the truth? -Nikole Wellman<br />
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In the document “Extracts form the Mosher Survey.” it didn’t surprise me to hear that most women didn’t know much about men physiology. Sex was not an open topic to talk about. Women then were taught to wait till marriage and that intercourse was only meant to please men and have children. –Ashley Scutari<br />
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== Letters to Margaret Sanger, 1920s ==<br />
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After reading the online reading something that stuck out to me the most was the letters to Margaret Sanger. I found it surprising that men and women were actually staying away from their spouses because they don't want anymore children. Because birth control was not offered to women, and especially women who lived in rural areas, it was ruining marriages. In letter number 4 the wife was actually thinking about their financial stability knowing they can not have another child and all the husband wants is sex not really caring about the situation. This whole concept of the companion family caused higher expectations, however in these letters the women and or men mention that they love their spouse dearly but because they don't want to reproduce tears them apart. If there was such a big problem with divorce rates increasing and infidelity then why wasn't this taken into account? Is it because people are just to afraid to talk about sex? -- Amanda Taub<br />
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When reading the letters to Margaret Sanger about birth control I kind of asked the same question Amanda did on why wasn't it taken into account that divorce rates increasing was really possibly due to infidelity which was essentially caused by fear of having sex in result of having children. Therefore birth control would really possibly save marriage, however I don't think it is because people were afraid to talk about sex even though it wasn't talked about but, instead maybe what they really wanted was to be able to have sex freely without the worry of getting pregnant, and birth control would allow a married couple to have control over how many children they wanted. Maybe they thought, this thought was a scary or selfish thing to even think or want becasue for so long people just had children, but because the world was changing there was just no need for families with 7 to 10 children anymore.--Michelle M. <br />
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The letters to Margaret Sanger about the need for birth control were extremely interesting. I thought it was strange how women assumed they would just magically know how to not have children once they were married. Also, I wondered if married couples not having sex so as to not have any more children led to affairs outside the marriage. Clearly, there was no birth control for any type of sexual relationship but I get the feeling that these people writing in thought that extramarital affairs couldn’t result in children. What did prostitutes do for birth control? – Cat Debelius<br />
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Cat had a great point. I read once that prostitutes would take a "potion" to prevent pregnancy. Basically the same method as other women.... Pessaries, maybe abortion. -- Nikole Wellman<br />
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The people who wrote these letters sounded so desperate. They lived in a time where the companionate marriage seemed to burden the women with an emotional and economic dilemma; namely, the lack of intimate relations with their spouse could inhibit or destroy their marriage, and additional children placed economically and physically burdens that could have the same effect. When I read these letters, I wondered how many women were pushed to self aborting because of no other remedy.--LisaM <br />
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I agree with Amanda, Michelle and Cat. I found the letters to Margaret Sanger Morose. All the letters were from married men or women wanting to prevent conception. Societies views and laws regarding birth control was ruining relationships and marriages. I do feel compassion towards the men writing to Sanger about their wives health. Would this be a compassionate marriage? -- Nikole Wellman<br />
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In “Letters to Margaret Sanger, Birth-Control Advocate,” I agree with the third letter from a mother of six children. She should be allowed to use birth control for a few reasons. Financially she cannot afford to have another child, she doesn’t have anymore time to take care of more children, and birth control will help save her marriage. Her husband would rather stay away from her to avoid having another child. –Ashley Scutari <br />
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== Blanchard and Manasses discuss Ideals and Problems of Modern Marriage, 1930 ==<br />
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I agree with Landon and also saw many parallels between the discussion of the companionate family in class and also in society today. Blanchard and Manasses' discussion of courtship points out that men and women were able to "become intimately acquainted" before marriage and discuss openly and equally about their opinions of married life before they were married. The notion that men and women must be compatible personalities, working together as partners in all areas demonstrates the new ideal. Yet there are still hidden facets of Victorian ideals engrained into the companionate marriage. The "lurking fear that she may seem too passionate, and her husband may suspect what still seems to her dreadful secret, she cannot give herself up to free enjoyment of his love," still alludes to the idea that women are not supposed to enjoy sex and when they do there is something morally wrong with them. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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I also saw a parallel between Blanchard and Manasses' discussion and society's ideals today. Sex education, and the lack thereof, is still a problem. Many schools still strictly follow an abstinence only program and students are left uneducated about where to go for family planning options. In many cases women still grow up experiencing "conditioned responses toward sex" in which parents have punished any form of sexual expression. The experiences of women described in this reading (anxiety, embarressment, guilt) caused by society's ideals still strongly exist. Their discussion was a liberal view and today this view would be considered conservative but how much have the ideals of women's sexuality changed from the early 20th century? -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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The discussion of “modern marriage” was really interesting to me. I find it horrifying that ideals of companionship didn’t exist before this time. Even in this essay, there is a part where Phyllis Blanchard and Carolyn Manassas question what a companion marriage may mean for the future once sexual desire fades. I just found it interesting that eve they are not true believers in companionship. – Cat Debelius<br />
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== Malcom Bissell on birth control activism in PA, 1925 ==<br />
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Malcom Bissell’s essay on birth control discusses how small group meetings in people’s home might be the most effect way of disseminating birth control information. I think this is very telling of society’s views at the time. Clearly, birth control was wanted and necessary, but there was such a social stigma and controversy over using it that people didn’t want to be publicly seen as seeking out information. – Cat Debelius<br />
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I also thought the article "Breaking the Silence" by Yolanda Leyva was interesting. It was surprising to me that the Catholic Church was one place where the lesbian women could be themselves. I would have though that the church would have severely disapproved of such behavior. Did they just not know that by segregating the women they were encouraging this behavior or were the women just using the circumstances to their advantage? - Christine Wuebker</div>Lmeissnerhttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_7_Questions/Comments328--Week 7 Questions/Comments2008-02-26T12:59:38Z<p>Lmeissner: </p>
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<div>== Mothers’ Letters to the Children’s Bureau, 1915-1932 [1921, 1925, 1932] ==<br />
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"Anxious Mothers write the Children’s Bureau" deals with the health problems related to women and infants. People concerned wrote to the Children’s Bureau of the Department of Labor, which was formed until 1912. Before this, and even after this, was there anything for people to turn to on more of a local level? In addition, the first letter points out that the doctor was not available while the woman was giving birth, and the last letter points out the deficiencies in the profession. Was it more common or more reliable to see a midwife during this time? <br />
--Jessica Kilday<br />
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I really enjoyed the readings for this week. I thought it was interesting to read all the letters from the mothers to the Children's Bureau. The horror that one mother went throught just because she had a doctor who was not fully qualified and her desire for some sort of governmental check on all doctors to prevent such a terrible experience from happening again. -- Christine Wuebker<br />
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I agree with Christine about the letters to the Children's Bureau. They were all so interesting, the one about the mother who was worried about marking her baby was my favorite. Even though you hear of all the myths today that women worry about it was strange to hear this one. I have heard where craving certain food can help determine the sex of the baby but I had never heard that not eating a food that you are craving and then touching your face would mark the baby in someway. Where did these myths start? -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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I am in the same boat as Christine and Kellye, I really enjoyed the reading from the Children's Bureau. The talk of malpractice and myths was rather interesting, just what women had to go through with pregnancy and to get a doctor who isn't all that great with child birth. Also the myths that were there were just amazing, like the one Kelley mentioned where a not eating the food your longing for will mark or harm the child in some way. How do these myths start anyways? and why do women believe them? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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In "Anxious Mothers Write the Children's Bureau" I was shocked about how women would already have children but are still asking for pamphlets.I can understand they want the newest information, but Mrs. W.M. has three healthy boys, and is due to have another child. However she wants to know about caring for your baby. I found it interesting that these women were giving birth w/o a Dr. present, and then in the second letter, the Dr. is a quack. The second letter brought up a vaild point that these children are everyones futures. What I don't understand is then why are there not good Doctors and why women that live 8 miles away, why don't they try to take residence somewhere closer to them?-- Amanda Taub<br />
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I also really enjoyed reading the letters in "Anxious Mothers Write the Children's Bureau." I thought that it was really interesting that these women seemed to be fairly pro-active in seeking advice on child-rearing and health concerns for their children. It was also pretty amusing reading about the woman afraid that not giving in to her cravings would leave marks on her cravings. I wonder what the response would to that question in context with the time period. I also wonder how much things have changed since then. I know that we have a lot of medical advances, but I also hear of a lot of old wives tales surrounding childbirth. Also, I come from a fairly rural area and I can see how not living close to a good doctor could still be a problem in some areas. And to respond to Amanda's question about why they didn't move closer to a doctor, I think that it would depend on a lot of factors. Particularly, if the family lives in a rural area on a farm or something, it might be difficult to move the family. That's just one example that I could think of, and I'm sure that there are a dozen more. --Katie Nelson<br />
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Interesting stuff. Puts the early 20th century into context from a healthcare standpoint. I believe the average life expectancy in 1900 was about 45 to 47 years of age. It has advanced 30 years during the past century. Motherhood and childbirth, especially in rural areas, was obviously much more like a 19th century experience than what we come to regard as a "normal experience" today. Certainly no textbooks such as "What to Expect When You Are Expecting," available to these ladies. Phil Novalski.<br />
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== Dorothy Dunbar Bromley, Harper’s piece on “Generational Conflicts” – 1927 ==<br />
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I think it is interesting to look at the women’s movement and how it evolved in different generations. Bromely begins by looking at the term “feminism” and how some people thought that this meant a young woman who had a job and who is no longer “old fashioned.” She looks at generational gaps between women in their twenties and women in their forties. If you were to make this breakdown today, how would women’s opinions on feminism differ? –Jessica Kilday<br />
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I agree with Jessica. I found the dissecting of the word "feminist" extremely interesting, especially as explained by generational differences. It seems like today the same dispute over the connotations of feminism exist, yet I think generational gaps no longer account for this difference... so what does? - Cat Debelius <br />
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I found "Generational Conflicts" extremely interesting because it seemed like many of the reasons that the women of the 1920s didn't want to be associated with the term 'feminist' are the same reasons that many people today don't want to be. These reasons include the desire to not be seen as man haters, the idea that they wouldn't live for only her husband or her job but rather would balance the two arenas, and had a desire to still wear feminine clothes which the older generation who called themselves feminists did not want to do.-Elizabeth Frank<br />
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The Feminists--New Style of "Generational Conflicts" by Dorothy Dunbar Bromley seemed to be considerably naive. Was it really possible for a women to have a successful career during the 1920's and 1930's that could provide economic freedom? Was it as easy as these new feminists presented it to be?---Justin Mattos<br />
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Justin makes an excellent point. I'm all in favor of the "modern woman." However, you must be careful what you wish for. A lot of women I know (including my wife) who try to balance a career, a family, etc. during childbearing years are STRESSED OUT. Women should make their own choices, however, there is nothing wrong with choosing ONE or the other option, or going back to work after kids are raised. Societal expectations of the mother as the primary caregiver/homemaker makes the situation of a woman+career+family much tougher than that of a man with the same situation. Phil Novalski<br />
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For the first time in this class I saw a glimpse of what I would consider the modern woman. In Dorothy Bromley's writing she describes the 3rd generation feminists and how they didn't hate men, how they were concerned with being fashionable, and how they were more concerend with economic independence than with reform. Before this reading all the women we have studied or read about either seemed to submissive to resemble any females I consider to be contemporary, or they were far more radical and militant than the average woman in America today. -----Landon Davis<br />
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The other article I really like was "Feminist-New Style" by Dorothy Dunbar Bromley. It is the first time we see the formation of a modern woman. I also thought her description of the different generations of women was interesting. I was surprised she didn't talk about flappers. Today they are the most recognized women of the 1920s. I would have thought she would have at least mentioned them in her article. -- Christine Wuebker<br />
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As much as I love being able to see a correlation between the 3rd Generation girls in "Feminist - New Style" and the modern American woman, it bothers me how unappreciative those girls seemed to be about all that had been accomplished, especially with the 2nd generation. True, feminist had a bit of a negative connotation because of how radical most of the suffragists were and it still has that "man-hating" connotation today, but what those women accomplished took a heck of a lot of work and energy. It just makes me wonder, are women today just as unappreciative of what other women had to suffer and fight for to give us the luxuries we have today? I certainly hope not. I do, however, like the last line, "If this be treason gentlemen, make the most of it." I did like this article a lot, and I like how Dorothe Dunbar Bromley emphasized how women should take control of their lives. But it just kind of bugged me how much she ragged on the 1st and 2nd generation women. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I was also very interested in reading teh "Generational Conflicts" by Dorothy Bromley. I found myself agreeing with alot that she says. I think that the feminists of the 1970's had the same kind of reputation of being antagonizers of men or as being man haters like the feminist-new style of the 20's thought the older feminists were. I remember growing up in the 70's and being adamant that I did not want to be known as a feminist when I grew up! I still hate that term because of the negative image I have from the Femi-nazis of the 70's but I guess my beliefs are very much "feminist". How did the feminist-new style turn into the femi-nazis of the 70's? Is it just a normal "cycle" of generations and the old "history repeats itself" argument or did something specific happen to cause the feminist to revert to the more militant end of the spectrum again?~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
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In Dorothy Bromley's essay she talks about the new modern women, and how they are an individual and independent. However she says, "And in this era of simplified housekeeping they see their oportunity.." (128) What does she mean by simplyfied housekeeping? Does she mean simplyfied because of new technology in cleaning appliances and products or something else? Also with this new oportunity of free time women are going to do something they enjoy, so what do they do in their new free time?--Michelle M.<br />
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Michelle, - I found the "simplified housekeeping" remark kind of funny as well. I guess they didn't have to use the rainbarrel to wash clothes in anymore? I think its a poignant piece. Feminists have always had to labor under the constrict of trying to achieve progress, while not appearing to be too militant at the same time. That's a tough balancing act. I remember growing up in the 70's and 80's and feminism did get a stigma attached. I'm not sure it was a problem with the message from people like Gloria Steinem and Betty Friedan, it was people's interpretation of how the message was delivered. Conflict politics, like those sometimes practiced by Steinem and other activists, never makes people feel warm and fuzzy. Phil Novalski<br />
<br />
I agree with Amanda. I do not understand why there were not many doctors around. If women were having a child I would think there would be a way to have contact with a doctor. Not many women traveled when they were heavily pregnant. Did women back then believe that having children without a doctor would be ok? --Ashley Scutari<br />
<br />
== Women of the KKK, the Klan Kreed, Constitution, 1927 ==<br />
<br />
I was shocked to read about the KKK. I had no idea in 1925 there were between 3 and 4 million American members involved. Also to read there were 500,000 women in a a "Women of the KKK" scares me. What drew all these individuals into this organization? Why so many women in 1925 and fewer in the later years? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
<br />
Like Rose I found the article "Women of the Ku Klux Klan" interesting. While I was not that surprised on how many women were involved in it, especially seeing how much dislike the Southern states had towards blacks, and I remembered learning that Jews were becoming to be targets of the KKK I didn't remember that the Catholics were also targets. Although I didn't remember this, seeing how the majority, if not all of the members, were white protestants it does kind of make sense. Though what I found most interesting was the fact that section 2 of the Constitution of and laws of the WKKK stated that the group would be military in character, and I would have thought these women would want to avoid that categorization since it was not very lady-like.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
The "Women of the Ku Klux Klan" document was really interesting. I was very surprised with the detailed constitution of the organization. Even though this was one way for women to become involved in politics it impressed me to the extent that the constitution went. It included the organization's objectives & purposes, membership and offenses & penalties. The type of offenses listed really surprised me, it never would have occurred to me to list "disrespect of virtuous womanhood." I would have thought that that offense would have been a given, but at the same time it is left up to individual interpretation of what would be considered disrespect. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
I did find it interesting that women were involved in the Klu Klux Klan. Women were not as strict as men were with racism. Based on the situations women can be what they want to be. By working hard you can achieve what you want based on beliefs. If you can succeed then you’ll be successful. –Ashley Scutari<br />
<br />
I knew that there was a Women of the KKK, but I did not have any type of understanding of how many members and their Kreed. I found just the in depth of the Kreed amazing. It covered membership, objections, offenses and punishments. I found it interesting that there was a donation of $10 required... unless your husband was in the original KKK. Does the WKKK or the KKK still exist today? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
http://www.kkk.bz/ Oh yes, they're still here. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
Something that I found rather comical when reading the intro to the WKKK was that they made a point to say one perk of the WKKK was every member in good standing got a free white robe and helmet. The fact that, that is the perk that is listed is ridiculous, I can imagine a women being like "I don't know all of what we stand for but we get a free outfit." Also what I really liked was how this horrible organization was seen as, by the women involved, "a splendid opportunity for friendship and solidarity .... Just a celebration... a way of growing up." This just baffles me because these women are part of an horrible organization almost as an excuse to make friends and have fun and celebrate growing up. I know it was accepted during the time period but are these women that naive and ridiculous? -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
I was shocked as well when I read about the WKKK. It just amazes me that more and more people were getting better educations but still people fell back on the "I am better than you" mentality. It amazes me that in their kreed they refer to having good morals and reputations and how patriotic they thought they were. I don't get how "White Supremecy" equals patriotism especially considering some of the things that the KKK would do. I know that my grandparents grew up in the 30's and they never supported these groups because my grandma always said violence against anyone was wrong but they had the same mentality towards different religions and blacks as these racial groups did. How did they reconcile the being a good Christian and believing in Jesus Christ like their Kreed says but then treat others the way they did?~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
<br />
The WKKK article was very interesting because I had no idea that there was a KKK for women alone. I knew that the ones who had husbands in the KKK supported them, but that they actually had their own group, wow. Under the Constitution and Laws part of the article it says the "Order shall ever be military in character..." (136) How militaristic and ritualistic were they? Did they often commit violent act againt those they oppesed like the usual burning of a cross or throwing bricks through peoples windows?--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
The KKK in the Twenties was another outporing of "Nativist" sentiment in response to many Catholics and Jews spreading throughout the large cities. This "Nativist" movement recycles itself every couple of generations, and it is repeating itself this very moment in Prince William County and across the country. Even though the "Real Natives" of America have been relegated to small reservations, people will continually look upon immigrants trying to find a better life as "intruders" and "illegals" rather than children of God. - Phil Novalski.<br />
<br />
== Carrie Chapman Catt, 1920, to League of Women Voters ==<br />
<br />
In "New Voters" by Carrie Chapman Catt, I found it notable that Catt thought of political change as only possible through political parties. This view differs from, what I guess is a more idealistic, view that the parties can be affected by grass roots movements. I guess her view of politics must have been shaped by her experiences fighting for women's suffrage. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I really like Carrie Chapman Catt's piece, "New Voters." She made an excellent point that now that women had the right to vote, they needed to do something with it. Since they were now seen on an "equal" platform with men when it came to casting votes, why not move yourself up higher in the political realm? That had been one of my questions actually, what were women going to fight for now that they had the right to vote? And was there something to fight for? Well, obviously, in Carrie Chapman Catt's opinion there was. It just makes me wonder if they would have been more successful had Catt been able to be a bigger part of this "new movement." She made the comment, "Younger and fresher women must do that work, and because I cannot advise and cannot follow, I only point to the fact that the battle is there..." and I just feel that with all she did for the suffrage movement, this next battle would have been fought better with her at the forefront. And, just for kicks, I liked the comment, "Women must not be content until they are as independent within the party as men are, which isn't saying much." She's so funny. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
"If you really want women's vote to count, make your way there."(p.122) This inspiring phrase from Carrie Chapman Catt's speech was the crux of the newly ratified 19th amendment. Now that women had the vote, how were they going to use it? She tells them to go out and get involved. It reminds me of all the campaigns to get out the vote that we have today. Catt understands that just having the power to vote is not enough; the real power lies in how it's used. I also found it interesting that she wants them to get involved in political parties in order to make the most impact. It almost seems like going backwards becaue now they're back to working within the male controlled sphere. It goes back to contradicting the narrow-minded male perception that women would all vote the same on issues. -Kendall Haring<br />
<br />
Very practical address by Catt. You have to be inside the system in order to have real power. In those days, it meant gaining access to the "smoke-filled" rooms where the party machinery made decisions that affected people's everday lives. Phil Novalski.<br />
<br />
== Doris Stevens [pro] and Dr. Alice Hamilton [anti] debate the ERA, 1924 in the Forum. ==<br />
<br />
<br />
I found the debate about an Equal Rights Amendment to be fairly interesting. Of the two debates, I, with my modern understanding of things, believe that the argument in favor of the Equal Rights Amendment was a way to achieve gender equality. Having to wait for equality and legislate for women separately seems to play into gender stereotypes instead of defusing them which should ultimately be the purpose of whatever course of action that should be undertaken. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
"One of the most divisive issues for political women in the immediate post-suffrage years was the Equal Rights Amendment..." One argument focuses on equality in control of children, property, earnings, etc., and the other places emphasis on equality within the workplace. When you look at each woman, you can see a relationship with their life experience and their opinion on ERA. Doris Stevens, who argued for equality of children, property and earnings, was a teacher and social worker before becoming a member of NAWSA. Alice Hamilton was a physician concerned with worker health issues. If the opposing female groups could have negotiated and addressed women's rights in unison, do you think women's suffrage and equality could have been realized sooner?--LisaM<br />
<br />
I also found the debate very interesting as well as a challenging topic to side one way on. In a perfect world I would side with Stevens and the National Women's Party in terms of equality for both sexes. Although at that point in history it is easy to see how many women wouldn't want to be held to those standards in the work place. I think that Hamilton's arguement was best made when she looked to Holland. Instead of "taking privilege away from the women" (126) the privileges were given to the men. The debate brings up a very important point: where is the line that separates women and men and how do you draw that line while maintaining equality? -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
In Doris Stevens essay, she makes the point of realization that just because women have the right to vote now, does not mean that they will have eaqual rights still in other things. This is only the first step, because women are still seen as lesser than men. Did men or women or both think that now that women have the right to vote that it will make them happy and go away? Because equal voting did not solve the problem of equal rights all around.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
<br />
I thought it was interesting reading and comparing the arguments presented in Doris Stevens' and Alice Hamilton's essays. What I found particularly interesting was that each group seemed to have the best interests of women at their core. Stevens was promoting the equality of women and men, and Hamilton promoted protection of women. However, I think that the closing statement in Hamilton's essay demonstrates how women as well as men needed a lot of convincing to promote the idea that they are equals. She says, "I must, as a practical person, familiar with the great, inarticulate body of working women, reiterate my belief that they are largely helpless, that they ahve very special needs which unaided they cannot attain, and that it would be a crime for the country to pass legislation which would not only make it impossible to better their lot in the near future but would even deprive them of hte small measure of protection they now enjoy." (p.126). It's also interesting that she thinks that passing an equal rights legislation would make it impossible for women to better their lot, whereas Stevens thinks that equal rights is the key to improvement. --Katie Nelson<br />
<br />
As a modern woman, I felt that I had to immediately side with Doris Stevens. Of course women should be equal to men in every respect, especially in the workplace (even though they still aren't in terms of equal pay.) But it wasn't hard to understand Alice Hamilton's argument. What the NWP was proposing was taking away the power of being women from women. It made me think about whether equality is always the right answer. While removing the issue of gender, Hamilton argues that you make women helpless in the world of men. Women are measured to the same standard as men. It seems like the question is, without considering a women as a group with separate goals from men, will they be lost in the workplace? Is that why women still don't have some of the same opportunities in professions or pay today? -Kendall Haring<br />
<br />
Alice Hamilton's argument may be hard for the ladies in this class to completely understand, however, put into the context of not wanting to lose what had already been gained, her conservative position was somewhat understandable. Phil Novalski.<br />
<br />
== Nella Larsen’s Passing, 1929 ==<br />
<br />
In Nella Larsen's ''Passing'' it was very upsetting to read about Clare's double life. It's hard to imagine growing up in a society that valued "pure blood" so strongly that you would deny your ancestry in order to be a part of a soceity that would shun you if they knew the truth. I thought it was an interesting situation to think "if I was in Irene's shoes in the 1920's, what would I do?" -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
Was passing a common practice? It seems that passing would not only be infeasible but also extremely uncomfortable. I cannot imagine the pressure and strain of trying to live your life while having to lie to everyone around you and deserting your family. Do these sacrifices speak to the huge difference in standards of living between white and black Americans in this time period? Were conditions so bad for the black/mixed race people that they were willing to make this huge sacrifice and pretend to be someone else? Or was this just a few opportunistic greedy girls trying to get ahead one way or another? Also did any men successfully try and do this? -- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I have the same question as Landon, how common was "passing"? It doesn't seem like something anyone would want to do because I feel like living a double life would be such a hassle. At the same time, though, it was amazing to read Clare's statement about how much easier white people had it. "You'd be surprised, 'Rene, how much easier that is with white people than with us." But her explanations why seemed kind of naive in my opinion. Saying that it was either because of how many more white people there were or because they were secure enough with themselves doesn't seem like a satisfying answer. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
I want to expand on the comment Kelly posted above regarding how much easier white people had it. In present day education courses covering multicultural issues, they refer to a concept called "white privilege." It is really difficult to define in the context of a story because white advantages are so pervasive in society. Basically it addresses the advantages, whether by manner of speech or actions, a white person has navigating through all aspects of society.--LisaM <br />
<br />
Nella Larson’s story about the girl that “passed” as white got me wondering… what happened to someone if they were found out? - Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
With women having the ability to vote, I think it would have been interesting to track votes by gender and if a wife's vote was the same or opposite as her husband. Did females double the number of votes or was their a clear difference between what women found as important issues vs. the men? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
<br />
I found Alice Hamilton’s essay against laws that apply to only both sexes very interesting and actually pretty persuasive. It would be risky to assume that if the law was equal that society would be. Were the proponents of this legislation willing to face the time period when society hadn’t caught up to the law. – Cat Debelius</div>Lmeissnerhttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_7_Questions/Comments328--Week 7 Questions/Comments2008-02-26T01:57:04Z<p>Lmeissner: </p>
<hr />
<div>"Anxious Mothers write the Children’s Bureau" deals with the health problems related to women and infants. People concerned wrote to the Children’s Bureau of the Department of Labor, which was formed until 1912. Before this, and even after this, was there anything for people to turn to on more of a local level? In addition, the first letter points out that the doctor was not available while the woman was giving birth, and the last letter points out the deficiencies in the profession. Was it more common or more reliable to see a midwife during this time? <br />
--Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I think it is interesting to look at the women’s movement and how it evolved in different generations. Bromely begins by looking at the term “feminism” and how some people thought that this meant a young woman who had a job and who is no longer “old fashioned.” She looks at generational gaps between women in their twenties and women in their forties. If you were to make this breakdown today, how would women’s opinions on feminism differ? –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
With women having the ability to vote, I think it would have been interesting to track votes by gender and if a wife's vote was the same or opposite as her husband. Did females double the number of votes or was their a clear difference between what women found as important issues vs. the men? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
<br />
I was shocked to read about the KKK. I had no idea in 1925 there were between 3 and 4 million American members involved. Also to read there were 500,000 women in a a "Women of the KKK" scares me. What drew all these individuals into this organization? Why so many women in 1925 and fewer in the later years? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
<br />
Like Rose I found the article "Women of the Ku Klux Klan" interesting. While I was not that surprised on how many women were involved in it, especially seeing how much dislike the Southern states had towards blacks, and I remembered learning that Jews were becoming to be targets of the KKK I didn't remember that the Catholics were also targets. Although I didn't remember this, seeing how the majority, if not all of the members, were white protestants it does kind of make sense. Though what I found most interesting was the fact that section 2 of the Constitution of and laws of the WKKK stated that the group would be military in character, and I would have thought these women would want to avoid that categorization since it was not very lady-like.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
The Feminists--New Style of "Generational Conflicts" by Dorothy Dunbar Bromley seemed to be considerably naive. Was it really possible for a women to have a successful career during the 1920's and 1930's that could provide economic freedom? Was it as easy as these new feminists presented it to be?---Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
In "New Voters" by Carrie Chapman Catt, I found it notable that Catt thought of political change as only possible through political parties. This view differs from, what I guess is a more idealistic, view that the parties can be affected by grass roots movements. I guess her view of politics must have been shaped by her experiences fighting for women's suffrage. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I really like Carrie Chapman Catt's piece, "New Voters." She made an excellent point that now that women had the right to vote, they needed to do something with it. Since they were now seen on an "equal" platform with men when it came to casting votes, why not move yourself up higher in the political realm? That had been one of my questions actually, what were women going to fight for now that they had the right to vote? And was there something to fight for? Well, obviously, in Carrie Chapman Catt's opinion there was. It just makes me wonder if they would have been more successful had Catt been able to be a bigger part of this "new movement." She made the comment, "Younger and fresher women must do that work, and because I cannot advise and cannot follow, I only point to the fact that the battle is there..." and I just feel that with all she did for the suffrage movement, this next battle would have been fought better with her at the forefront. And, just for kicks, I liked the comment, "Women must not be content until they are as independent within the party as men are, which isn't saying much." She's so funny. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
I found the debate about an Equal Rights Amendment to be fairly interesting. Of the two debates, I, with my modern understanding of things, believe that the argument in favor of the Equal Rights Amendment was a way to achieve gender equality. Having to wait for equality and legislate for women separately seems to play into gender stereotypes instead of defusing them which should ultimately be the purpose of whatever course of action that should be undertaken. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
"One of the most divisive issues for political women in the immediate post-suffrage years was the Equal Rights Amendment..." One argument focuses on equality in control of children, property, earnings, etc., and the other places emphasis on equality within the workplace. When you look at each woman, you can see a relationship with their life experience and their opinion on ERA. Doris Stevens, who argued for equality of children, property and earnings, was a teacher and social worker before becoming a member of NAWSA. Alice Hamilton was a physician concerned with worker health issues. If the opposing female groups could have negotiated and addressed women's rights in unison, do you think women's suffrage and equality could have been realized sooner?--LisaM<br />
<br />
I found "Generational Conflicts" extremely interesting because it seemed like many of the reasons that the women of the 1920s didn't want to be associated with the term 'feminist' are the same reasons that many people today don't want to be. These reasons include the desire to not be seen as man haters, the idea that they wouldn't live for only her husband or her job but rather would balance the two arenas, and had a desire to still wear feminine clothes which the older generation who called themselves feminists did not want to do.-Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
I also found the debate very interesting as well as a challenging topic to side one way on. In a perfect world I would side with Stevens and the National Women's Party in terms of equality for both sexes. Although at that point in history it is easy to see how many women wouldn't want to be held to those standards in the work place. I think that Hamilton's arguement was best made when she looked to Holland. Instead of "taking privilege away from the women" (126) the privileges were given to the men. The debate brings up a very important point: where is the line that separates women and men and how do you draw that line while maintaining equality? -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
In Nella Larsen's ''Passing'' was very upsetting to read about Clare's double life. It's hard to imagine growing up in a society that valued "pure blood" so strongly that you would deny your ancestry in order to be a part of a soceity that would shun you if they knew the truth. I thought it was an interesting situation to think "if I was in Irene's shoes in the 1920's, what would I do?" -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
"If you really want women's vote to count, make your way there."(p.122) This inspiring phrase from Carrie Chapman Catt's speech was the crux of the newly ratified 19th amendment. Now that women had the vote, how were they going to use it? She tells them to go out and get involved. It reminds me of all the campaigns to get out the vote that we have today. Catt understands that just having the power to vote is not enough; the real power lies in how it's used. I also found it interesting that she wants them to get involved in political parties in order to make the most impact. It almost seems like going backwards becaue now they're back to working within the male controlled sphere. It goes back to contradicting the narrow-minded male perception that women would all vote the same on issues. -Kendall Haring<br />
<br />
Was passing a common practice? It seems that passing would not only be infeasible but also extremely uncomfortable. I cannot imagine the pressure and strain of trying to live your life while having to lie to everyone around you and deserting your family. Do these sacrifices speak to the huge difference in standards of living between white and black Americans in this time period? Were conditions so bad for the black/mixed race people that they were willing to make this huge sacrifice and pretend to be someone else? Or was this just a few opportunistic greedy girls trying to get ahead one way or another? Also did any men successfully try and do this? -- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I have the same question as Landon, how common was "passing"? It doesn't seem like something anyone would want to do because I feel like living a double life would be such a hassle. At the same time, though, it was amazing to read Clare's statement about how much easier white people had it. "You'd be surprised, 'Rene, how much easier that is with white people than with us." But her explanations why seemed kind of naive in my opinion. Saying that it was either because of how many more white people there were or because they were secure enough with themselves doesn't seem like a satisfying answer. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
For the first time in this class I saw a glimpse of what I would consider the modern woman. In Dorothy Bromley's writing she describes the 3rd generation feminists and how they didn't hate men, how they were concerned with being fashionable, and how they were more concerend with economic independence than with reform. Before this reading all the women we have studied or read about either seemed to submissive to resemble any females I consider to be contemporary, or they were far more radical and militant than the average woman in America today. -----Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I really enjoyed the readings for this week. I thought it was interesting to read all the letters from the mothers to the Children's Bureau. The horror that one mother went throught just because she had a doctor who was not fully qualified and her desire for some sort of governmental check on all doctors to prevent such a terrible experience from happening again. -- Christine Wuebker<br />
<br />
The other article I really like was "Feminist-New Style" by Dorothy Dunbar Bromley. It is the first time we see the formation of a modern woman. I also thought her description of the different generations of women was interesting. I was surprised she didn't talk about flappers. Today they are the most recognized women of the 1920s. I would have thought she would have at least mentioned them in her article. -- Christine Wuebker<br />
<br />
I agree with Christine about the letters to the Children's Bureau. They were all so interesting, the one about the mother who was worried about marking her baby was my favorite. Even though you hear of all the myths today that women worry about it was strange to hear this one. I have heard where craving certain food can help determine the sex of the baby but I had never heard that not eating a food that you are craving and then touching your face would mark the baby in someway. Where did these myths start? -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
The "Women of the Ku Klux Klan" document was really interesting. I was very surprised with the detailed constitution of the organization. Even though this was one way for women to become involved in politics it impressed me to the extent that the constitution went. It included the organization's objectives & purposes, membership and offenses & penalties. The type of offenses listed really surprised me, it never would have occurred to me to list "disrespect of virtuous womanhood." I would have thought that that offense would have been a given, but at the same time it is left up to individual interpretation of what would be considered disrespect. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
I am in the same boat as Christine and Kellye, I really enjoyed the reading from the Children's Bureau. The talk of malpractice and myths was rather interesting, just what women had to go through with pregnancy and to get a doctor who isn't all that great with child birth. Also the myths that were there were just amazing, like the one Kelley mentioned where a not eating the food your longing for will mark or harm the child in some way. How do these myths start anyways? and why do women believe them? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I knew that there was a Women of the KKK, but I did not have any type of understanding of how many members and their Kreed. I found just the in depth of the Kreed amazing. It covered membership, objections, offenses and punishments. I found it interesting that there was a donation of $10 required... unless your husband was in the original KKK. Does the WKKK or the KKK still exist today? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
http://www.kkk.bz/ Oh yes, they're still here. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
In "Anxious Mothers Write the Children's Bureau" I was shocked about how women would already have children but are still asking for pamphlets.I can understand they want the newest information, but Mrs. W.M. has three healthy boys, and is due to have another child. However she wants to know about caring for your baby. I found it interesting that these women were giving birth w/o a Dr. present, and then in the second letter, the Dr. is a quack. The second letter brought up a vaild point that these children are everyones futures. What I don't understand is then why are there not good Doctors and why women that live 8 miles away, why don't they try to take residence somewhere closer to them?-- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
Something that I found rather comical when reading the intro to the WKKK was that they made a point to say one perk of the WKKK was every member in good standing got a free white robe and helmet. The fact that, that is the perk that is listed is ridiculous, I can imagine a women being like "I don't know all of what we stand for but we get a free outfit." Also what I really liked was how this horrible organization was seen as, by the women involved, "a splendid opportunity for friendship and solidarity .... Just a celebration... a way of growing up." This just baffles me because these women are part of an horrible organization almost as an excuse to make friends and have fun and celebrate growing up. I know it was accepted during the time period but are these women that naive and ridiculous? -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
As much as I love being able to see a correlation between the 3rd Generation girls in "Feminist - New Style" and the modern American woman, it bothers me how unappreciative those girls seemed to be about all that had been accomplished, especially with the 2nd generation. True, feminist had a bit of a negative connotation because of how radical most of the suffragists were and it still has that "man-hating" connotation today, but what those women accomplished took a heck of a lot of work and energy. It just makes me wonder, are women today just as unappreciative of what other women had to suffer and fight for to give us the luxuries we have today? I certainly hope not. I do, however, like the last line, "If this be treason gentlemen, make the most of it." I did like this article a lot, and I like how Dorothe Dunbar Bromley emphasized how women should take control of their lives. But it just kind of bugged me how much she ragged on the 1st and 2nd generation women. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I was shocked as well when I read about the WKKK. It just amazes me that more and more people were getting better educations but still people fell back on the "I am better than you" mentality. It amazes me that in their kreed they refer to having good morals and reputations and how patriotic they thought they were. I don't get how "White Supremecy" equals patriotism especially considering some of the things that the KKK would do. I know that my grandparents grew up in the 30's and they never supported these groups because my grandma always said violence against anyone was wrong but they had the same mentality towards different religions and blacks as these racial groups did. How did they reconcile the being a good Christian and believing in Jesus Christ like their Kreed says but then treat others the way they did?~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
<br />
I was also very interested in reading teh "Generational Conflicts" by Dorothy Bromley. I found myself agreeing with alot that she says. I think that the feminists of the 1970's had the same kind of reputation of being antagonizers of men or as being man haters like the feminist-new style of the 20's thought the older feminists were. I remember growing up in the 70's and being adamant that I did not want to be known as a feminist when I grew up! I still hate that term because of the negative image I have from the Femi-nazis of the 70's but I guess my beliefs are very much "feminist". How did the feminist-new style turn into the femi-nazis of the 70's? Is it just a normal "cycle" of generations and the old "history repeats itself" argument or did something specific happen to cause the feminist to revert to the more militant end of the spectrum again?~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
<br />
In Dorothy Bromley's essay she talks about the new modern women, and how they are an individual and independent. However she says, "And in this era of simplified housekeeping they see their oportunity.." (128) What does she mean by simplyfied housekeeping? Does she mean simplyfied because of new technology in cleaning appliances and products or something else? Also with this new oportunity of free time women are going to do something they enjoy, so what do they do in their new free time?--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
The WKKK article was very interesting because I had no idea that there was a KKK for women alone. I knew that the ones who had husbands in the KKK supported them, but that they actually had their own group, wow. Under the Constitution and Laws part of the article it says the "Order shall ever be military in character..." (136) How militaristic and ritualistic were they? Did they often commit violent act againt those they oppesed like the usual burning of a cross or throwing bricks through peoples windows?--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
In Doris Stevens essay, she makes the point of realization that just because women have the right to vote now, does not mean that they will have eaqual rights still in other things. This is only the first step, because women are still seen as lesser than men. Did men or women or both think that now that women have the right to vote that it will make them happy and go away? Because equal voting did not solve the problem of equal rights all around.--Michelle M.</div>Lmeissnerhttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_6_Questions/Comments328--Week 6 Questions/Comments2008-02-20T17:29:01Z<p>Lmeissner: </p>
<hr />
<div>I found Jane Addams's view that women needed to be involved in the political parties since organizations for public good founded by a charismatic individual usually died after their departure to be interesting. Her belief that political parties produced more long lasting and stable change through their unification of the states and the nation was what interested me about her view, especially given today's political climate. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I also found it interesting that there existed Negro women who belonged to the Democratic party since it was the party that had recently worked for their enslavement and did not really support woman's rights at the time. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I found Leonara O'Reilly's "A Labor Organizer Speaks Out for Suffrage" to be a very good argument, but I failed to see how it was different from all of the other arguments that Congress probably had already heard that talked about how women's suffrage was the right thing to do and failed to speak about how women's suffrage was in the Congressmen's best interests. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I enjoyed the personal writings by the various working women. All were so informative and individual tone helped to understand the kind of labor, their general treatment, and their personal feelings about the job: gratitude, vulnerability. All these jobs were considered women's work and all were poorly (payed even compared to cheap male labor), demeaning in some way, and offered either high health hazards or demanded long hours. I found Agnes Nestor particularly inspiring, that she worked from unskilled glove maker to union leader (being part of that small 2.2%) and lobbyist for women's work rights. ~Jackie R.<br />
<br />
The speech delivered by Abigail Scott Duniway (printed in Modern American Women), I thought was very interesting. She brings up a very good question, if women were sincere in their belief that men considered women’s opinions and kept their promises to women, then why would men not also feel safe in allowing women the right to vote? Her speech continues, to discuss how men and women were created equally as halves and without the consideration of both, there can never be a whole. –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
There were many arguments both for and against women’s suffrage. Many of these arguments are outlined, in a satirical manner, by Marie Jenny Howe in “An Anti-Suffrage Monologue.” Throughout the monologue, she compares two opposite and extreme arguments to point out how ridiculous an extreme belief can be. One of her arguments can almost be applied to Duniway’s argument. Howe states that, “If the women were enfranchised they would vote exactly as their husbands do and only double the existing vote. Do you like that argument? If not, take this one. If the Women were enfranchised they would vote against their own husbands, thus creating dissension, family quarrels, and divorce,” (102). If men and women truly are two halves of a whole, as Duniway suggests, then the first statement would most certainly be true. If the second statement is taken as true and the votes of men and women cancel each other out and create conflict, then wouldn’t the same be true if voting were left to only men as well? If conflicting votes led to quarrel and instability within a family, then wouldn’t conflicting votes among men result in quarrel and instability in society? Looking at both of these extremes as Howe does throughout the monologue, leads one to realize that a more moderate view would be more functional and practical. –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I found it intriguing in the article by Melanie Gustafon, that even though the progressive party did not accept African American men, there were still some African American men that supported the party. My guess is they saw the party as being 'progressive' and would be the best party to, hopefully, eventually carry their own political desires. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
It was a nice change of pace to read what a woman against suffrage had to say about suffrage. I found her points intriguing, but I also wondered why facts were not proof... facts are usually there to prove one point or another. The article about Alice Paul and the conditions under which the prisoners were kept were horrible! No fresh air, the sweeping of dust into the cells, and feeding them basically raw pork is just horrible. Did this happen at most prisons? Does it still happen? -- Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I found the"Partisan Women in the Progressive Era" by Melanie Gustafson very interesting. I didn't know that the idea of partisan vs. non-partisan was actually a gendered idea, nor had I thought about the idea that women's auxiliaries could have been seen as women's lack of dedication to the political arena (pg 250). However, one of the points she makes that stood out to me the most was the fact that women suffragists, specifically, Ida HUsted Harper, felt that women's involvement in partisan activities was actually damaging to the suffrage movement. My line of thinking would say that the involvement in the partisan groups would actually help the movement since it would show the dedication that women had to politics that supposedly the women's auxiliaries did not. -Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
<br />
In "Inez Haynes Irwin Recalls the Militance of Suffragists in the National Woman's Party, 1921" it is mentioned that after the Senate and President remained silent on the issue of women's suffrage they announced their intention to hold a (peaceful) demonstration yet, when President Wilson heard this, he immediately said he would accept and talk to a delegation of women. I was wondering if he decided to talk to the women because he was afraid that they would meet together and gain support instead of quieting down if the bill didn't pass? And if this was his hope, how could he have expected the women who wanted the vote so badly to simply back down? In other words, did he talk with them with the hope of preventing the very demonstration that they had despite (or maybe because) of this meeting?- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
Yet again I found the readings in Modern American Women absolutely fascinating! I enjoyed reading how many different ways the suffrage movement was promoted and with what ideas, as well with ideas that the anti-suffragists would use (although that came through a satire). Perhaps one of my favorites of these readings was the first one, "A Western Suffragist Talks to her Eastern Sisters" by Abigail Scott Duniway. It said in the introduction that the East coast suffragists saw her as more radical than they wished to be but I don't understand what was so radical about the ideas expressed in the piece we read (this may simply be due to the time period difference). I would have thought that her arguments that the movement was not a war between the genders but a movement for interdependence and that women did not want to remove men from their rights or limit them, but simply wanted to gain the ability to chose their own rights would have been comforting to those men who felt that the movement was a threat to their power. The "Anti-Suffrage Monologue" as also very interesting, at the same time irritating because I am aware that there were women who did actually hold these beliefs. However I do wonder if they would have phrased them in this way or it the arguments were exaggerated in this piece due to its satirical nature. Lastly, I also found the rules contained in "Front Door Lobbying' for Suffrage' by Maud Wood Park to be extremely interesting because it demonstrates the desire of women to gain suffrage while still being viewed as lady-like and proper. I found every single one of these readings interesting but it was those three that stood out to me the most.-Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
I found Marie Jenny Howe's An Anti-Suffrage Monologue very interesting. Her 5th anti-suffrage couplet I found to be very funny and some what accurate. She stated "women can not band together. They are incapable of organization. No two women can even be friends. Women are cats." The fact that I am a girl I really see this. Throughout our lives we deal with our friends stabbing us in the back and someone gossiping about the other. Especially as I have gotten older women have become a lot more brutal. I do find this to be an issue in social settings and political settings. However since there was and is still a belief, why do women accomplish so much when its more then one person fighting for the same goal? Is it because we are still male dominated and we have them to regulate women's organizations? -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
I'm not sure if I agree with Amanda's sentiment of "funny" when referring to Howe's "An Anti-Suffrage Monologue." In one passage she states, "Enfranchisement is what makes man man. Disfranchisement is what makes woman woman. If women were enfranchised every man would be just like every woman and every woman would be just like every man. There would be no difference between them. and don't you think this would rob life of just a little of its poetry and romance?" What romance novel was this lady reading! She also goes on to characterize the women that participate in the suffrage movement by saying, "Observe their inability, their mental disability, their spiritual instability and general debility!" Are these the characteristics of only the women seeking their rights or of all women? It appears that this women can make a claim to the characteristics depicted in Amanda's post because she has obviously exhibited this behavior in her writing. I think the "Antis" were afraid of change;I would guess they were quite comfortable within the sanctuary of their homes, and the thought of operating outside the domestic sphere was intimidating.--LisaM <br />
<br />
In the Abigail Scott Duniway piece she made a point that I believe is dead on. "She said A home w/o a man in it is only half a home. A government w/o a women is only half a government. A man w/o a women is only one-half of a pair... a women w/o a man is like the other half..." What I don't understand is how men of this time period don't understand that if they did not have women in the home there wouldn't be a home. Everything she does for him wouldn't get done, and god forbid he does anything for himself when he gets home. Relating this document to Howe, she says women are there to wash the dishes and if the mistress of the house doesn't do it she hires someone. A man washing the dishes would be "blasphemy." Even before the 1900s I find it funny that men don't realize women do dictate their lives, women were influencing their husbands political activity. Women have a way of manipulating men to think they had the brilliant idea when really it was the women's decision all along. So in reality if women just stopped standing by their men then a large a majority of the American male population would probably be helpless. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
I agree with you to an extent, Amanda. You're right when you say that women influenced their husbands' political activity, but if you think about the reasons men were afraid to let women vote, one of them dealt with the fear that women would vote exactly like their husbands and without their own agenda. In reality, these women wanted the vote so that they could help themselves. I don't think most of them wanted to vote the same way as the men in their lives did. But your right; women did have (and still do) have a major impact on the way men acted politically. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
I agree with Amanda, and I was really struck by the comment "A home without a man in it is only half a home. A government without a woman is only half a government..." But I think the fact that men didn't really understand demonstrates the double standard at that time. It seems that they thought that yes, a home without a man is only half a home, but they only thought that women should stay in their "domestic sphere" and should not enter the public sphere. The double standard is that men have to be in the home or it would only be half of a home, but women's place is only in the home. In this same article, I was also struck by her comments on the "evolution" of homemaking and her discussion of how more was being done in factories. She also discusses how more girls will work more in the factories through this process of evolution. I thought that these comments were a little brave, because isn't that what men were fearing? That women would leave the home and enter the workforce? But then, she reconciles it a little by saying that the younger girls will go to work so that the mothers can stay home... --Katie Nelson<br />
<br />
In MP the Inez Haynes piece I found to be extremely inspiring. These women speak to two senators and they honestly tell these women your bill is not coming up today. Then you have Wilson saying I am in sympathy with you, a nice little white lie and the suffragists saying ha I will believe it when I see it. I really like this piece because they weren't naive about what was really going on. But what really gets me is that these two senators did not lie to the women they were honestly like no not happening, then you have the President pretty much lying. I find that comical because it really shows who Wilson really is. But my question is why would he lie to these women? I don't understand how he could not think this was not an important issue and that when its time for re-election his presidency is in their hands. So my question is why would he lie to these women? -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
After reading Florence Luscomb's piece, "Open-Air Meetings: A New Suffrage Tactic," I couldn't help but be impressed by the lengths these suffragettes went to in order to have their voices heard. The numbers she gave at the end, "We have spoken to 24,900 people ... we gave held 97 meetings ... and have obtained over 2000 signatures" is absolutely incredible. When studying the Suffrage movement, you never think of the extremes that some women went to and Luscomb and her colleague surely went above and beyond to get their opinions all over Massachusetts. I also liked her comment about taking the roof away from a female speaker and she immediately becomes a raving lunatic. If you think about it, the perception was true, especially since it went against the good old Sphere of Domesticity. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
Like Kelly I found "Open-Air Meetings: A New Suffrage Tactic," of great interest. Women suffrage groups obviously realized that to be heard they required a larger voice from the population of women. It is easy for government officials to dismiss a handful of suffrage organizers as fanatical, but a large group of women is a force to be reckoned with. The tactic of conducting open-air meetings allowed the suffrage representatives access to a segment of the women's population that they were not likely to see in any organization meeting.--LisaM <br />
<br />
I really liked Maud Wood Park's "'Front Door Lobbying' For Suffrage." I thought the list of rules that were drafted were a great representation of how women tried to still be seen as moral and proper but still be able to voice their opinions for their cause. My favorite line, however, was the last section where Maud Wood Park discusses her favorite report which said "He said, 'I'm with you; I'm for it, I'm going to vote for it. Now don't bother me,' all in one breath." There must have been a large number of these amusing reports because I'm sure the men they were lobbying to enjoyed their visits. -- Kelly Wuyscik</div>Lmeissnerhttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_6_Questions/Comments328--Week 6 Questions/Comments2008-02-20T16:59:04Z<p>Lmeissner: </p>
<hr />
<div>I found Jane Addams's view that women needed to be involved in the political parties since organizations for public good founded by a charismatic individual usually died after their departure to be interesting. Her belief that political parties produced more long lasting and stable change through their unification of the states and the nation was what interested me about her view, especially given today's political climate. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I also found it interesting that there existed Negro women who belonged to the Democratic party since it was the party that had recently worked for their enslavement and did not really support woman's rights at the time. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I found Leonara O'Reilly's "A Labor Organizer Speaks Out for Suffrage" to be a very good argument, but I failed to see how it was different from all of the other arguments that Congress probably had already heard that talked about how women's suffrage was the right thing to do and failed to speak about how women's suffrage was in the Congressmen's best interests. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I enjoyed the personal writings by the various working women. All were so informative and individual tone helped to understand the kind of labor, their general treatment, and their personal feelings about the job: gratitude, vulnerability. All these jobs were considered women's work and all were poorly (payed even compared to cheap male labor), demeaning in some way, and offered either high health hazards or demanded long hours. I found Agnes Nestor particularly inspiring, that she worked from unskilled glove maker to union leader (being part of that small 2.2%) and lobbyist for women's work rights. ~Jackie R.<br />
<br />
The speech delivered by Abigail Scott Duniway (printed in Modern American Women), I thought was very interesting. She brings up a very good question, if women were sincere in their belief that men considered women’s opinions and kept their promises to women, then why would men not also feel safe in allowing women the right to vote? Her speech continues, to discuss how men and women were created equally as halves and without the consideration of both, there can never be a whole. –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
There were many arguments both for and against women’s suffrage. Many of these arguments are outlined, in a satirical manner, by Marie Jenny Howe in “An Anti-Suffrage Monologue.” Throughout the monologue, she compares two opposite and extreme arguments to point out how ridiculous an extreme belief can be. One of her arguments can almost be applied to Duniway’s argument. Howe states that, “If the women were enfranchised they would vote exactly as their husbands do and only double the existing vote. Do you like that argument? If not, take this one. If the Women were enfranchised they would vote against their own husbands, thus creating dissension, family quarrels, and divorce,” (102). If men and women truly are two halves of a whole, as Duniway suggests, then the first statement would most certainly be true. If the second statement is taken as true and the votes of men and women cancel each other out and create conflict, then wouldn’t the same be true if voting were left to only men as well? If conflicting votes led to quarrel and instability within a family, then wouldn’t conflicting votes among men result in quarrel and instability in society? Looking at both of these extremes as Howe does throughout the monologue, leads one to realize that a more moderate view would be more functional and practical. –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I found it intriguing in the article by Melanie Gustafon, that even though the progressive party did not accept African American men, there were still some African American men that supported the party. My guess is they saw the party as being 'progressive' and would be the best party to, hopefully, eventually carry their own political desires. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
It was a nice change of pace to read what a woman against suffrage had to say about suffrage. I found her points intriguing, but I also wondered why facts were not proof... facts are usually there to prove one point or another. The article about Alice Paul and the conditions under which the prisoners were kept were horrible! No fresh air, the sweeping of dust into the cells, and feeding them basically raw pork is just horrible. Did this happen at most prisons? Does it still happen? -- Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I found the"Partisan Women in the Progressive Era" by Melanie Gustafson very interesting. I didn't know that the idea of partisan vs. non-partisan was actually a gendered idea, nor had I thought about the idea that women's auxiliaries could have been seen as women's lack of dedication to the political arena (pg 250). However, one of the points she makes that stood out to me the most was the fact that women suffragists, specifically, Ida HUsted Harper, felt that women's involvement in partisan activities was actually damaging to the suffrage movement. My line of thinking would say that the involvement in the partisan groups would actually help the movement since it would show the dedication that women had to politics that supposedly the women's auxiliaries did not. -Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
<br />
In "Inez Haynes Irwin Recalls the Militance of Suffragists in the National Woman's Party, 1921" it is mentioned that after the Senate and President remained silent on the issue of women's suffrage they announced their intention to hold a (peaceful) demonstration yet, when President Wilson heard this, he immediately said he would accept and talk to a delegation of women. I was wondering if he decided to talk to the women because he was afraid that they would meet together and gain support instead of quieting down if the bill didn't pass? And if this was his hope, how could he have expected the women who wanted the vote so badly to simply back down? In other words, did he talk with them with the hope of preventing the very demonstration that they had despite (or maybe because) of this meeting?- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
Yet again I found the readings in Modern American Women absolutely fascinating! I enjoyed reading how many different ways the suffrage movement was promoted and with what ideas, as well with ideas that the anti-suffragists would use (although that came through a satire). Perhaps one of my favorites of these readings was the first one, "A Western Suffragist Talks to her Eastern Sisters" by Abigail Scott Duniway. It said in the introduction that the East coast suffragists saw her as more radical than they wished to be but I don't understand what was so radical about the ideas expressed in the piece we read (this may simply be due to the time period difference). I would have thought that her arguments that the movement was not a war between the genders but a movement for interdependence and that women did not want to remove men from their rights or limit them, but simply wanted to gain the ability to chose their own rights would have been comforting to those men who felt that the movement was a threat to their power. The "Anti-Suffrage Monologue" as also very interesting, at the same time irritating because I am aware that there were women who did actually hold these beliefs. However I do wonder if they would have phrased them in this way or it the arguments were exaggerated in this piece due to its satirical nature. Lastly, I also found the rules contained in "Front Door Lobbying' for Suffrage' by Maud Wood Park to be extremely interesting because it demonstrates the desire of women to gain suffrage while still being viewed as lady-like and proper. I found every single one of these readings interesting but it was those three that stood out to me the most.-Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
I found Marie Jenny Howe's An Anti-Suffrage Monologue very interesting. Her 5th anti-suffrage couplet I found to be very funny and some what accurate. She stated "women can not band together. They are incapable of organization. No two women can even be friends. Women are cats." The fact that I am a girl I really see this. Throughout our lives we deal with our friends stabbing us in the back and someone gossiping about the other. Especially as I have gotten older women have become a lot more brutal. I do find this to be an issue in social settings and political settings. However since there was and is still a belief, why do women accomplish so much when its more then one person fighting for the same goal? Is it because we are still male dominated and we have them to regulate women's organizations? -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
In the Abigail Scott Duniway piece she made a point that I believe is dead on. "She said A home w/o a man in it is only half a home. A government w/o a women is only half a government. A man w/o a women is only one-half of a pair... a women w/o a man is like the other half..." What I don't understand is how men of this time period don't understand that if they did not have women in the home there wouldn't be a home. Everything she does for him wouldn't get done, and god forbid he does anything for himself when he gets home. Relating this document to Howe, she says women are there to wash the dishes and if the mistress of the house doesn't do it she hires someone. A man washing the dishes would be "blasphemy." Even before the 1900s I find it funny that men don't realize women do dictate their lives, women were influencing their husbands political activity. Women have a way of manipulating men to think they had the brilliant idea when really it was the women's decision all along. So in reality if women just stopped standing by their men then a large a majority of the American male population would probably be helpless. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
I agree with you to an extent, Amanda. You're right when you say that women influenced their husbands' political activity, but if you think about the reasons men were afraid to let women vote, one of them dealt with the fear that women would vote exactly like their husbands and without their own agenda. In reality, these women wanted the vote so that they could help themselves. I don't think most of them wanted to vote the same way as the men in their lives did. But your right; women did have (and still do) have a major impact on the way men acted politically. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
I agree with Amanda, and I was really struck by the comment "A home without a man in it is only half a home. A government without a woman is only half a government..." But I think the fact that men didn't really understand demonstrates the double standard at that time. It seems that they thought that yes, a home without a man is only half a home, but they only thought that women should stay in their "domestic sphere" and should not enter the public sphere. The double standard is that men have to be in the home or it would only be half of a home, but women's place is only in the home. In this same article, I was also struck by her comments on the "evolution" of homemaking and her discussion of how more was being done in factories. She also discusses how more girls will work more in the factories through this process of evolution. I thought that these comments were a little brave, because isn't that what men were fearing? That women would leave the home and enter the workforce? But then, she reconciles it a little by saying that the younger girls will go to work so that the mothers can stay home... --Katie Nelson<br />
<br />
In MP the Inez Haynes piece I found to be extremely inspiring. These women speak to two senators and they honestly tell these women your bill is not coming up today. Then you have Wilson saying I am in sympathy with you, a nice little white lie and the suffragists saying ha I will believe it when I see it. I really like this piece because they weren't naive about what was really going on. But what really gets me is that these two senators did not lie to the women they were honestly like no not happening, then you have the President pretty much lying. I find that comical because it really shows who Wilson really is. But my question is why would he lie to these women? I don't understand how he could not think this was not an important issue and that when its time for re-election his presidency is in their hands. So my question is why would he lie to these women? -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
After reading Florence Luscomb's piece, "Open-Air Meetings: A New Suffrage Tactic," I couldn't help but be impressed by the lengths these suffragettes went to in order to have their voices heard. The numbers she gave at the end, "We have spoken to 24,900 people ... we gave held 97 meetings ... and have obtained over 2000 signatures" is absolutely incredible. When studying the Suffrage movement, you never think of the extremes that some women went to and Luscomb and her colleague surely went above and beyond to get their opinions all over Massachusetts. I also liked her comment about taking the roof away from a female speaker and she immediately becomes a raving lunatic. If you think about it, the perception was true, especially since it went against the good old Sphere of Domesticity. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
Like Kelly I found "Open-Air Meetings: A New Suffrage Tactic," of great interest. Women suffrage groups obviously realized that to be heard they required a larger voice from the population of women. It is easy for government officials to dismiss a handful of suffrage organizers as fanatical, but a large group of women is a force to be reckoned with. The tactic of conducting open-air meetings allowed the suffrage representatives access to a segment of the women's population that they were not likely to see in any organization meeting.--LisaM <br />
<br />
I really liked Maud Wood Park's "'Front Door Lobbying' For Suffrage." I thought the list of rules that were drafted were a great representation of how women tried to still be seen as moral and proper but still be able to voice their opinions for their cause. My favorite line, however, was the last section where Maud Wood Park discusses her favorite report which said "He said, 'I'm with you; I'm for it, I'm going to vote for it. Now don't bother me,' all in one breath." There must have been a large number of these amusing reports because I'm sure the men they were lobbying to enjoyed their visits. -- Kelly Wuyscik</div>Lmeissnerhttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_5_Questions/Comments328--Week 5 Questions/Comments2008-02-12T01:05:12Z<p>Lmeissner: </p>
<hr />
<div>In Harriet Brunkhurst's article I found it sad to read how the mother of working women expected so much more of their working daughters than of their working sons. Not only was being looked down upon for being in the same level as men bad enoough, but they were expected to cook, clean and do other odd end things around the house after a tiresome day at work, while the sons did nothing but relax after a tiresome day at work. The part that most hit me was Cecil's story. Her mother has her work and wants to hear nothing about how Cecil is tired from work yet she has the nerver to say "John is so tired when he returns from work" about her husband!!! -Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
I also found it interesting to read Harriet Brunkhurst’s article in Major Problems in American Women’s History. It was sad that the women were not as respected as men for holding full time business jobs. However, I think it was largely to do with the context of the time. Mothers couldn’t empathize with their daughters because they expected them to play the same role in the household that they had once held. They knew that their daughters were the main providers, but the idea of this was out of line with the traditional norms and expectations of society at the time. This conflict created a double standard for the working girls, conforming to both the expectations one would hold for the head of the house as well as the expectations for the woman of the house, with fewer of the benefits of each. --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I find it kind of interesting how the political events taking place in China had a big effect on the way Chinese people in Ameica lived. I admire how the women in Chinese in America helped the Revoultionary cause back in the homeland and helped liberize the women both here in America and in China by allowing them to unbind their feet, go out in public and learn to read and be educated and become independent from men.- Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
It is interesting to compare Modern American Women: “The Harsh Conditions of Domestic Service” with how Fannie Williams describes the “Problem of Employment for Negro Women in Major Problems. Both of these sources describe working conditions for African American women. The first source discusses the role of the “nurse” in the household. The nurse however is responsible for much more than caring for the health of children and family, she is asked to carry out household tasks as well. It is almost as if slavery is continued by the need and difficulty of African American women to find work. The second source points out specifically that, African American women are more commonly employed to domestic service. She seems to take a different spin out however by suggesting that if you can’t be employed to a more honorable position, then make the position you can work more honorable. The question then becomes, what makes a position honorable? And how can you elevate a position if you have no control over the pay, benefits, or job description? --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
Kelly I also agree with you Nellie Bly was an incredible woman, however I find it amazing that she traveled all the way around the world and the most interesting passage this book could print was the one about her packing her carry on bag. I would have liked to hear more about her actual travels. - Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I found the Linda Gordon's essay pretty interesting. Her comparisons of black women's and white women's welfare activist goals were enlightening. It makes since that black women would be so much more passionate for better education, because for middle class white women it was often a given. Black women activists, however, sought to improve the welfare of their entire community, starting with their children, and not just focus on the issues of women. Also, I don't know if this made anyone else laugh but on page 215 some records are quoted on money raised through charity work: things like Bazaars, bake sales, baby contest...BABY CONTESTS? That just sounds ridiculous! What does that even entail, besides a bunch of self-indulgent parents acting like 19th century stage moms.--Jackie Reed<br />
<br />
I was amazed by the large role that the YWCA played in the liberation of Chinese women. From what I read, I think that they were more liberated than white women. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Like Justin I was surprised how the YWCA played such an important role. These women were isolated and this organization pulled them from their closets. It is amazing how customs shaped the Chinese woman's life experience. In "Unbound Feet" it states, "it was considered immodest to be seen too many times during the year."(263) Chinese women were made invisible by their culture. The idea of seeing a friend only on a special occasion, which was not due to distance, or the need to travel in a closed coach for short distances is suffocating. The YWCA recognized this and offered an opportunity that allowed women of similar backgrounds to meet and receive assistance outside their homes, but the most important contribution the YWCA gave these women was power. The power to meet, to decide and to change their lives in a way that they could now participate in it.--LisaM<br />
<br />
In Harriet Brunkhurst's article entitled "Business Girls," she identifies how a mother and daughter struggle in their relationship. Despite the daughter's role as the breadwinner, the mother, who is a homemaker, inflicts her judgment of her daughter's behavior within the confines of the home. The mother "would yield without question to husband or son occupying the same position, debates Rose's every movement simply because she is a girl."(266) We read about suppression of race and gender, but the suppression from within the structure of a girl's life can dictate a life of inadequacy. Our socialization and placement in the world is influenced by school, government, friends and most importantly family. The family instills values and beliefs and is the most enduring agent in the life of a child. If this type of suppression exists within the family, what can be expected of a child as an adult?--LisaM <br />
<br />
I think Lisa makes a good point about what can be expected of a child as an adult. I know my mother struggles with having her mom live with her right now. My grandma was raised that women stay home, do housework, raise children, and have a 'man' provide for them. Every day mom comes home tired and wore out (its been stressful at work lately) and my grandmother gets on her case about laundry, dishes, vacuming, and the like the moment she walks in, but says nothing to my father who helps my mom out with housework all the time. She fights with mom but when dad says something she shuts up and leaves mom alone. Its almost like I watch and live in this time setting because she also does it to me when I'm visiting my parents --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
How was sexual harassment handled during the early 20th century? I mean there are accounts of needing witnesses and having detectives, but it all seems a bit informal. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Like Justin, I am curious how sexual harassment was handled. It seemed that many males got away with sexual harassing females because the females did not want to lose their job. Did this occur often? Did many of the harassers get dealt with? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I found it interesting to read in "The Burdens of Rural Woman's Lives" that the husband stayed home during the Civil War after being drafted by paying $300. It seemed to be a parallel to more recent wars like the Vietnam War. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I found it intriguiing while reading Judy Yung's essay in Unequal Sisters that the protestant church was the first to encourage chinese women and that the Chinese women's involvement with church activities helped to expand their gender roles. I knew foot binding has ended, but its always nice to read about something that ended that I felt was cruel. I also found it interesting that to support the revolution, women in China did various activities such as enlisting in the army and engaging in dangerous uncover work. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
"Unbound Feet" doesn't go in depth on the foot binding issue. Based upon what I have read the process of foot binding was painful and and caused physical problems later in life, but what struck me was that there was a stigma attached to it. Foot binding made a woman more desirable, which makes them marriage worthy. I read one account where a potential mother-in-law checked the feet of the potential bride. If she had not been foot bound, the marriage was not approved by the family. Mothers performed this painful procedure, which began around the age of 4, on their daughters. Can you imagine putting a child in pain to conform to the norms within the culture.--LisaM</div>Lmeissnerhttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_5_Questions/Comments328--Week 5 Questions/Comments2008-02-11T17:33:41Z<p>Lmeissner: </p>
<hr />
<div>In Harriet Brunkhurst's article I found it sad to read how the mother of working women expected so much more of their working daughters than of their working sons. Not only was being looked down upon for being in the same level as men bad enoough, but they were expected to cook, clean and do other odd end things around the house after a tiresome day at work, while the sons did nothing but relax after a tiresome day at work. The part that most hit me was Cecil's story. Her mother has her work and wants to hear nothing about how Cecil is tired from work yet she has the nerver to say "John is so tired when he returns from work" about her husband!!! -Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
I also found it interesting to read Harriet Brunkhurst’s article in Major Problems in American Women’s History. It was sad that the women were not as respected as men for holding full time business jobs. However, I think it was largely to do with the context of the time. Mothers couldn’t empathize with their daughters because they expected them to play the same role in the household that they had once held. They knew that their daughters were the main providers, but the idea of this was out of line with the traditional norms and expectations of society at the time. This conflict created a double standard for the working girls, conforming to both the expectations one would hold for the head of the house as well as the expectations for the woman of the house, with fewer of the benefits of each. --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I find it kind of interesting how the political events taking place in China had a big effect on the way Chinese people in Ameica lived. I admire how the women in Chinese in America helped the Revoultionary cause back in the homeland and helped liberize the women both here in America and in China by allowing them to unbind their feet, go out in public and learn to read and be educated and become independent from men.- Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
It is interesting to compare Modern American Women: “The Harsh Conditions of Domestic Service” with how Fannie Williams describes the “Problem of Employment for Negro Women in Major Problems. Both of these sources describe working conditions for African American women. The first source discusses the role of the “nurse” in the household. The nurse however is responsible for much more than caring for the health of children and family, she is asked to carry out household tasks as well. It is almost as if slavery is continued by the need and difficulty of African American women to find work. The second source points out specifically that, African American women are more commonly employed to domestic service. She seems to take a different spin out however by suggesting that if you can’t be employed to a more honorable position, then make the position you can work more honorable. The question then becomes, what makes a position honorable? And how can you elevate a position if you have no control over the pay, benefits, or job description? --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
Kelly I also agree with you Nellie Bly was an incredible woman, however I find it amazing that she traveled all the way around the world and the most interesting passage this book could print was the one about her packing her carry on bag. I would have liked to hear more about her actual travels. - Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I found the Linda Gordon's essay pretty interesting. Her comparisons of black women's and white women's welfare activist goals were enlightening. It makes since that black women would be so much more passionate for better education, because for middle class white women it was often a given. Black women activists, however, sought to improve the welfare of their entire community, starting with their children, and not just focus on the issues of women. Also, I don't know if this made anyone else laugh but on page 215 some records are quoted on money raised through charity work: things like Bazaars, bake sales, baby contest...BABY CONTESTS? That just sounds ridiculous! What does that even entail, besides a bunch of self-indulgent parents acting like 19th century stage moms.--Jackie Reed<br />
<br />
I was amazed by the large role that the YWCA played in the liberation of Chinese women. From what I read, I think that they were more liberated than white women. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Like Justin I was surprised how the YWCA played such an important role. These women were isolated and this organization pulled them from their closets. It is amazing how customs shaped the Chinese woman's life experience. In "Unbound Feet" it states, "it was considered immodest to be seen too many times during the year."(263) Chinese women were made invisible by their culture. The idea of seeing a friend only on a special occasion, which was not due to distance, or the need to travel in a closed coach for short distances is suffocating. The YWCA recognized this and offered an opportunity that allowed women of similar backgrounds to meet and receive assistance outside their homes, but the most important contribution the YWCA gave these women was power. The power to meet, to decide and to change their lives in a way that they could now participate in it.--LisaM<br />
<br />
In Harriet Brunkhurst's article entitled "Business Girls," she identifies how a mother and daughter struggle in their relationship. Despite the daughter's role as the breadwinner, the mother, who is a homemaker, inflicts her judgment of her daughter's behavior within the confines of the home. The mother "would yield without question to husband or son occupying the same position, debates Rose's every movement simply because she is a girl."(266) We read about suppression of race and gender, but the suppression from within the structure of a girl's life can dictate a life of inadequacy. Our socialization and placement in the world is influenced by school, government, friends and most importantly family. The family instills values and beliefs and is the most enduring agent in the life of a child. If this type of suppression exists within the family, what can be expected of a child as an adult?--LisaM <br />
<br />
How was sexual harassment handled during the early 20th century? I mean there are accounts of needing witnesses and having detectives, but it all seems a bit informal. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I found it interesting to read in "The Burdens of Rural Woman's Lives" that the husband stayed home during the Civil War after being drafted by paying $300. It seemed to be a parallel to more recent wars like the Vietnam War. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I found it intriguiing while reading Judy Yung's essay in Unequal Sisters that the protestant church was the first to encourage chinese women and that the Chinese women's involvement with church activities helped to expand their gender roles. I knew foot binding has ended, but its always nice to read about something that ended that I felt was cruel. I also found it interesting that to support the revolution, women in China did various activities such as enlisting in the army and engaging in dangerous uncover work. --Ashley Wilkins</div>Lmeissnerhttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_5_Questions/Comments328--Week 5 Questions/Comments2008-02-11T12:54:00Z<p>Lmeissner: </p>
<hr />
<div>In Harriet Brunkhurst's article I found it sad to read how the mother of working women expected so much more of their working daughters than of their working sons. Not only was being looked down upon for being in the same level as men bad enoough, but they were expected to cook, clean and do other odd end things around the house after a tiresome day at work, while the sons did nothing but relax after a tiresome day at work. The part that most hit me was Cecil's story. Her mother has her work and wants to hear nothing about how Cecil is tired from work yet she has the nerver to say "John is so tired when he returns from work" about her husband!!! -Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
I also found it interesting to read Harriet Brunkhurst’s article in Major Problems in American Women’s History. It was sad that the women were not as respected as men for holding full time business jobs. However, I think it was largely to do with the context of the time. Mothers couldn’t empathize with their daughters because they expected them to play the same role in the household that they had once held. They knew that their daughters were the main providers, but the idea of this was out of line with the traditional norms and expectations of society at the time. This conflict created a double standard for the working girls, conforming to both the expectations one would hold for the head of the house as well as the expectations for the woman of the house, with fewer of the benefits of each. --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I find it kind of interesting how the political events taking place in China had a big effect on the way Chinese people in Ameica lived. I admire how the women in Chinese in America helped the Revoultionary cause back in the homeland and helped liberize the women both here in America and in China by allowing them to unbind their feet, go out in public and learn to read and be educated and become independent from men.- Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
It is interesting to compare Modern American Women: “The Harsh Conditions of Domestic Service” with how Fannie Williams describes the “Problem of Employment for Negro Women in Major Problems. Both of these sources describe working conditions for African American women. The first source discusses the role of the “nurse” in the household. The nurse however is responsible for much more than caring for the health of children and family, she is asked to carry out household tasks as well. It is almost as if slavery is continued by the need and difficulty of African American women to find work. The second source points out specifically that, African American women are more commonly employed to domestic service. She seems to take a different spin out however by suggesting that if you can’t be employed to a more honorable position, then make the position you can work more honorable. The question then becomes, what makes a position honorable? And how can you elevate a position if you have no control over the pay, benefits, or job description? --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
Kelly I also agree with you Nellie Bly was an incredible woman, however I find it amazing that she traveled all the way around the world and the most interesting passage this book could print was the one about her packing her carry on bag. I would have liked to hear more about her actual travels. - Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I found the Linda Gordon's essay pretty interesting. Her comparisons of black women's and white women's welfare activist goals were enlightening. It makes since that black women would be so much more passionate for better education, because for middle class white women it was often a given. Black women activists, however, sought to improve the welfare of their entire community, starting with their children, and not just focus on the issues of women. Also, I don't know if this made anyone else laugh but on page 215 some records are quoted on money raised through charity work: things like Bazaars, bake sales, baby contest...BABY CONTESTS? That just sounds ridiculous! What does that even entail, besides a bunch of self-indulgent parents acting like 19th century stage moms.--Jackie Reed<br />
<br />
I was amazed by the large role that the YWCA played in the liberation of Chinese women. From what I read, I think that they were more liberated than white women. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Like Justin I was surprised how the YWCA played such an important role. These women were isolated and this organization pulled them from their closets. It is amazing how customs shaped the Chinese woman's life experience. In "Unbound Feet" it states, "it was considered immodest to be seen too many times during the year."(263) Chinese women were made invisible by their culture. The idea of seeing a friend only on a special occasion, which was not due to distance, or the need to travel in a closed coach for short distances is suffocating. The YWCA recognized this and offered an opportunity that allowed women of similar backgrounds to meet and receive assistance outside their homes, but the most important contribution the YWCA gave these women was power. The power to meet, to decide and to change their lives in a way that they could now participate in it.--LisaM<br />
<br />
<br />
How was sexual harassment handled during the early 20th century? I mean there are accounts of needing witnesses and having detectives, but it all seems a bit informal. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I found it interesting to read in "The Burdens of Rural Woman's Lives" that the husband stayed home during the Civil War after being drafted by paying $300. It seemed to be a parallel to more recent wars like the Vietnam War. --Justin Mattos</div>Lmeissnerhttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_4_Questions/Comments328--Week 4 Questions/Comments2008-02-07T13:56:36Z<p>Lmeissner: </p>
<hr />
<div>While reading the primary source documents of the ''Modern American Women'' I found it a bit disconcerting that the women were so similar to the women of today. It is kind of a shame that history repeats itself so fully. I suppose it is evidence that change is gradual and more of an evolution. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I agree with Justin. The women in those readings were so similar to today's women. I would have hoped that women of today have come a long way from their fight for equality. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
<br />
Although it was an interesting study, Linda Gordon's study "Black and White Visions of Welfare: Women's Welfare Activism, 1890-1945" came very close to simply listing the differences between the two races of activists. Her conclusions did not seem to have a lot of depth. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I have to agree with Justin Mattos on his comment about Linda Gordon's essay. I too felt that that she really just listed the differences and similarities without any real conclusion. However, I do believe to have a better sense of what was happening, it is good to know that just because welfare groups existed, they didn't all go after the same things. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
It does seem like she just listed the differences between the two groups of reformers, however once I saw the tables in the back I was impressed. Until I saw those tables it hadnt sunk in that Gordon actually went back and found real women activist and studied them. Maybe I am just not used to studying history but I thought that was pretty cool. After i saw those tables with the lists of actual women activists I looked at the reading in a whole different light. - Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I think it was difficult to follow along with Gordon's essay, it did not flow. The chart in the back did help it all make since. -- Nikole Wellman <br />
<br />
I also observed in the primary source documents of ''Modern American Women'' that the stereotypes of women have only changed slightly today. Women are still thought to be more fragile than men, and there is still a need to protect them from harm. It has only been within the last decade that the idea of a working women has gained mainstream acceptance. I wonder if this observation stems from the fact that the primary source documents that I read were from the perspective of educated women. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I think so...I think the same would be true today. Educated womens perspectives will be different from non educated women.<br />
<br />
Chapter 14 of Unequal Sisters deals with the differences in welfare activism between African American and white women. Gordon points out that white women had more of an ability to work politically and seek donations from those who would be more able to help (i.e. congressional representatives or other political figures) while the African American women focused their activities around the community and church. She continues, to point out that white women activists focused more on charity and relief while black women sought to provide for more universal needs such as education and health. If there were poor or unfortunate people in both groups (black and white), why is it that white women activists focused on particular people while black women activists focused on reform that is more general? Did societal norms during this time make it more inappropriate to provide individual charity to black women? --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I found it interesting to read “Speaking out Against Lynching” by Ida B. Wells. She discusses the harsh punishments that African Americans were subjected to due to the stereotypes that white men and women held. On p age 15 she states, “With the Southern white man, any misalliance existing between a white woman and a colored man is a sufficient foundation for the charge of rape. The southern white man says that it is impossible for a voluntary alliance to exist between a white woman and a colored man, and therefore, the fact of an alliance is a proof of force.” Given this, would it also be considered rape if it were a black woman and a white man? Moreover, who would be at fault, would it be the man forcing himself onto the woman, or the woman because she is black? --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I also thought the reading by Wells was interesting. She only discusses the accusations that black men were raping white women. She never mentions black women being raped. Was it just something that they didn't talk about or something that they just took as a fact of life during those times? I thought it interesting that discussing how black men were falsely accused of rape and lynched even when it was well known at the time that it was a concentual relationship, but then went on to say that even when the white man left for war he left the white women to be protected by the black men. So why all of a sudden is the lynching of black men on the rise? Was it because now they were free and more like competition to the whites than they had been before?~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
<br />
In response to Mary Beth, I do think that to some extent the lynching of black was due to competition, but also due to fear. Before the African Americans were free, white men had never considered them to be a threat. When they left home they trusted that they would return with their home and family in the same state. It never crossed their minds that it would be possible for their family to be in danger because there had never been any reason to mistrust. Wells states on page 15 that "the world has accepted the story that the Negro is a monster which the Southern white man has painted him." With this image that is created, when the African Americans are free, the white men thus see it as the release of "a monster" and they no longer feel safe and trustworthy as they did before, when "the monster" was contained. --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
Following up on Jessica, I do believe that lynching became a catch all that helped the white race in the South to remove those blacks that did not remain in a subservient state. Lynching was not restricted just to blacks; there is a famous lynching case that involved a Jewish businessman, Leo Frank. The evidence implicating him to the rape and murder of a young, white girl came from a black man. The evidence was shaky, but Frank was convicted. He was removed from a prison by a mob that hung him. By the way...the mob consisted of notable public figures in the community.--LisaM<br />
<br />
To add on to the discussion so far about the "speaking out against lynching" i also agree that to a certain extent accusing black men of rape was a form of taking blacks out of the workforce competition. As one part of the article says, whites started looking upong blacks as a threat once they saw that they were starting to become educated and acquire money. To me, this is further emphasized by the fact that it wasn't until several generations that whites started making these great rape accusiations against blacks that raises a red flag in my mind as to the purpose of these accusations. - Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
I also found the reading on Wells interesting. In response to Mary Beth's point about the black women not officially being raped I believe it has some background in the idea that black women were naturally more passionate (less pure) than white women and therefore couldn't be raped because they would still be willing to have that relationship. I also agree with Jessica in that i think the lynching increased because there was a greater amount of fear now about the black community being free and the white community felt the need to use fear to control them. Likewise, in the South (where lynching was common) it might have been a way for the white community to maintain control and limit the amount of change that took place despite slavery being over. - Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
In response to Jessica's question, I think that white women were able to focus more on specific groups, because unlike black women, white women just had to focus on issues of sexual inequality whereas black women had the issues of sexual AND racial inequality going against them, as well as establishing themselves in a newly free world. Chapter 14 of Unequal Sister does highlight that the two major focus point for black women groups was education and health care. These were issues that obviously had to be taken care of after slavery because the whites weren't going to provide it fully for them (yes, a lot of groups DID help) but they knew they had to rely on themselves(as the article shows) to fully develop and not remain stagnant and looked down upon by the white community.- Emely Amaya.<br />
<br />
I also found in interesting in Gordon's piece on Welfare that she notes one specific difference. She states that the white groups that were looking for reform were looking at people "other" than themselves. They saw themselves as helping people less fortunate than themselves but still with a "moral" aspect between who was the "worthy and the unworthy poor" (pg 225). In contrast the black groups focused on middle class and poor blacks. The black groups also focused more on education and health instead of charitys like the whites. ~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
<br />
After reading ''Modern American Women'' I do agree with my classmates on how the perception of women has not changed drastically. It is now socially acceptable for a women to go off into the business world and make a name for herself. Even jobs such a teacher and a nurse that were considered women's work are still dominated today by women. Since I am an education major I go into a lot of elementary schools and the staff is female dominated. I think it is wrong that today where anyone can be anything, people still stereotype jobs and classify things as mens work or females work. This eve goes beyond the adults of the nation. We start these stereotypes early in children's lives. I have always remembered when I was younger and would go to Mc Donalds they would ask "would you like a girl toy or a boy toy?" Sometimes yeah I wanted the princess toy but other times I also wanted the hot wheels car. It is so disturbing to know that we are still dealing with this issue. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
After reading the article on Women's welfare activism,I too felt that she really just listed the differences and similarities without any real conclusion.However on the second page of the article, it talks about the differences of how white and black women were raising money. It says oh of course women raise money but they were also so busy attending White House conferences and correspondence with Supreme Court Justices and the black women it just states they organized bake sales, rummage sales and church dinners. I guess after reading this my biggest pet peeve is that yes white women did have more power in society. However, its not like there were no black women doing the same things. I just don't like how these women are talked down, for what they had their time was just as well spent as a white women. This really just made me feel that white women were more interested in their social lives or making them selves look better and black women worked as a team, they worked for the well being of everyone. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
While reading Chapter 14, I began to think about the possibly that the difference between the perspective of white women and black women on the poor that they helped was a matter of progression or evolution. As the black women received more power, it seemed that they became more like the white women and began to explicitly look down on the poorer black social classes. I saw this occurrence when the author talked about the views of the black poor by educated black women being the same as white women.--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
While reading MAW, I came across an exert from Ida B. Wells, which in truth makes sense, but I didn't expect to see exert from something I have read in the past. There piece of the article here touched me almost as much as it touched me then. The black women were not treated equally in any light, and were not considered to be able to be 'raped' because they were not pure and pious like the white women. Part of that comes through in the last paragraph of the exert. It makes me mad to think that people once thought like this, but what is even more scary is some people still do. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
After reading a bit more in the Modern American Women book, I find myself getting emotionally involved with the information presented. I felt anger towards the father who was treating his daughter like a sack of trash in "An immigrant Daughter Awakens to the Possibilities of the New World." I felt heartbroke when he slapped her because she was leaving. At the same time I know this happened a lot towards women... and it breaks my heart to know what some women had to go through. I've been lucky to have a father who was supportive in everything I chose and only opposed my decisions when they were bad decisions. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I agree with Ashley. I also felt angry towards the father in "An immigrant Daughter Awakens to the Possibilities of the New World." But what I also thought was sad and telling from this piece was how the mother quietly gave the money to the daughter so that she could get away and start over fresh. We all know that parents want a better life for their children than they had themselves. I think that this is a perfect example of a mother wanting her daughter to have a better life than she herself had--almost as though she is hoping that she can live vicariously through her daughter's freedom. --Katie Nelson<br />
<br />
In response to the comments on "An Immigrant Daughter," it is frustrating to see relationships that suppress one of the parties. This story took place in the early 20th century, but these relationships still exist today. Take a look at family structures in the Mid-East; if a woman steps out of the place designated by men,the ultimate punishment is death.--LisaM<br />
<br />
The readings in MAW all seemed to have a common component, which was the need to control. This played out differently in each narrative, but it did exist. In the essay on lynching, the white population used the act of lynching to suppress segments of the population that was considered threatening. "Immigrant Daughter" revealed the ludicrous disagreement over two cents, but the bigger issue was that she had not consulted her father first.--LisaM<br />
<br />
I completely agree with Ashley since I was also touched by some of the readings in Modern American Women. I also was upset at the way the young girl was treated by her father in "An Immigrant Daughter Awakens to the Possibilities of the New World". I always knew parents treated their daughters in such a harsh way at times, but it was very hard to see how harshly she was treated. I have to say if I was in her position I also would have left home. Though I did enjoy how she points out that she got in so much trouble for taking the girls word that they would get the 2 cents she owed when she says her dad had given away a lot more merchandise without any payment at all. - Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Bertha Palmer's speech at the opening of the Women's Building was so progressive except for the part where she says: "It willing acknowledges that the industries, arts, and commerce of the world have been for centuries in the hands of men who have carefully trained themselves for the responsibilities devolving upon them, and who have, consequently, without question, contributed vastly more than women to the valuable thought, research, invention, science, art and literature, which have become the rich heritage of the human race." Does she actually believe this? Or is she catering to what the public will most except in order to support her movement? - Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
I found Anzia Yeziercka's (Immigrant Daughter) story very interesting as far as the existance of two worlds (old/new) for young immigrant women. I feel like today American woman still struggle with existing in between the Old and the New world. It is amazing how sometimes problems never get solved they just evolve. - Cat Debelius<br />
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Mary Harris seemed incredible against the predominant constructs of gender and the entire system of change in America. Clearly she has struggled greatly in her lifetime and criticized women's methods of change... yet she seems to offer now feasibly alternative route. - Cat Debelius<br />
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The difference between the white activism and the black activism discussed in Unequal Sisters was not very surprising to me. I figured that since black women were also fighting for civil rights their fight would be stronger. They seemed to have the largest networks of people working toward the cause. They held fundraising fuctions to help raise the money needed to fund their programs. It is easy to understand how these women bonded in the way that they did. The bond that these women grew amongst themselves was largely due to the having to rely on eachother so much. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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I agree with Kellye about how it wasn't surprising about the differences between black and white activism. The black women had so much more to fight for, and not only that but how education was their most important area of activism instead of voting like for the white women.-- Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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I was impressed with the vast number of organizations that were formed as a result of the fundraising efforts of activist women. I was even more shocked to find the cost of maintaining these organizations and that these women were able to raise the money needed. ---Kellye Sorber<br />
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I thought it was very interesting to learn how educated these women were. I knew some women were getting degrees but not this many and not African Americans. I also thought it was interesting to see how important, influential, or rich the parents of these women were even the African American women had wealthy parents. -- Christine Wuebker<br />
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Another thing I found intersting was the view these women had about the role of women. I would have thought that since these women were out in the work force trying to bring about change they would have supported other women in the work place but they don't. It also was a surprise to learn about how many of the women were single, divorced, widowed, married, or living with a "partner." The interacting and sense of community created amoung these women is amazing. -- Christine Wuebker<br />
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It surprises me that black women started to develop social classes just as the white women. Black women who started to gain power, like the power whites had, these black women started to treat the poor and less fortunate black women like a low class. This really bothers me because after everything these women have been through you would except them to try to help each other out, but instead they forget about them and treat them as peasants. What my question is, are these higher powered black women doing this because they are trying to be whiter? Do they care more about upper class societies views on them? -- Amanda Taub<br />
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I was also surprised on how the black women started a social class just like the white women, but to try and answer your question(s) Amanda, I don't think they were trying to be whiter but maybe instead were so tired of the white social class they were instead competing now against them on what race was better as well as trying to gain the much wanted respect from white society they have wanted for so long. --Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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Kind of going off of what both Amanda and Michelle said, I think we have to keep in mind that there was a social ideal that all women had to try to live up to. The domestic of separate spheres was still alive and well and I feel like some black women felt that they had to adhere to that doctrine in order to make some headway in the world. Now, I'm not saying that's how all black women felt or acted, but I'm sure it played some sort of part. But what upsets me the most, and it's talked about in Anna Cooper's piece, "Black Women Plan to Lead Their Race," is that black women were subjected to the bottom of the social hierarchy on two accounts: race AND gender. No matter which way they tried to advance, they always had someone trying to hold them back. -Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I agree with Cat and the Anzia Yeziercka's (Immigrant Daughter)piece. Women are stuck dealing with the old and the new world. The problem with todays society is that only some people truly believe in the modern day women however, a good amount of people are so stuck in the past. Its not fair how women have to fight for so much when people need to stop living in the past. --Amanda Taub<br />
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Along with many other posts about the emotional involvement MAW commands of its readers, I found that "Margaret Sanger's Epiphany over Birth Control" opened my eyes to the desperate and difficult position of being a women with no control over her own body. Still today there are few practical birth control methods for the women that need it most. The pill and other hormonal methods are not cheap and condoms primarily place responsiblity on the male partner. It was heart-breaking to hear "a baby born dead, great relief - the death of an older child, sorrow but again relief" (86) as it must have been for Sanger. Sanger was not on a crusade to put a stop to child birth or to change the understanding that sex was for procreation, but rather to bring peace of mind to the women that so desperatly needed it. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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I completely agree with Meredith's statements about birth control and the fact that a woman had no control over her own body. Even today, although many forms of birth control are much more readily available to prevent pregnancy, women still do not have complete control over their bodies due to the regulation of abortion under Roe v. Wade. -Marilyn<br />
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I also was very touched by "Margaret Sanger's Epiphany over Birth Control". I knew that women had been attempting ways to control the number of children they had for a very long time but I had no idea that someone could self induce an abortion (especially since i really don't know how that works). I also found it so shocking that even married women didn't want to put faith in their husbands desire not to have any more children even though it would reduce the stress on his life and make paying bills easier. I would have thought they would also be glad to have less children to take care of. -Elizabeth Frank<br />
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In response to your comment Elizabeth, I'm not so sure it was the fact that they would have less children to take care of so much as the women would be in control of their own bodies and be making family altering decisions. Women were supposed to obey their husbands and if they took a stand and decided that they were going to prevent their family from increasing, then the husband would, in essence, lose a bit of power over his wife. I think that was what terrified them more than anything else. Some men actually were thrilled that their wives were looking into birth control. -Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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After taking History of Sexuality last semester and discussing Margaret Sanger I was not at all surprised with the "Margaret Sanger's Epihany over Birth Control." It was and still is hard to be a women when it comes to birth control. Women today are far better off than the women of Margaret Sanger's time. It is so much easier for women to obtain birth control today then ever before. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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I was very suprised to learn when reading Edith Eudora Ammons' piece about life as a female homesteader that women were more successful in staying with their claims by 6%. As she recalled being driven further and further into the unsettled land I can only imagine how disconnecting and daunting that ride must have been. The Ammons sister's hard work is clear proof of a way in which American women were able to take a different route and break the social expectations. After reading about the women who went west with their husbands or in order to find a husband in the past weeks, it was very uplifting to read about the other opportunities the west had for women. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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I thought "Wages for Housework" was the best essay, it made me laugh. I thought it was very interesting on how she capitalized certain sentences in order to show her frustration and to get her point across. I also thought this essay sounded very much like a modern day women and her frustration with being a house wife and how it is not looked at as being a job, because a lot more than just cleaning and cooking goes into taking care of a house and family. --Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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In Nellie Bly's essay she says, "I had such a strong belief in the world's greeting me as I greeted it, that I refused to arm myself. I knew if my conduct was proper I should always find men ready to protect me,..." (pg6-7) She is amazing in the fact that she was going to attempt to fly around the world and the fact that she was a women was going to make this awesome, but in this quote she seems completely oblivious to the real world, and that not everyone you meet is going to like you, aswell as thinking any man would be willing to protect her. Its like she ready to be considered equal to man by doing this great thing but yet still depend on them for protection. --Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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Gordon's essay in US as Kellye mentions as well as I have responded to her comment above about not being suprised about the differences in white and black women activism, but my question is why could women in general, black and white just come together and be the first ones to over look race and fight the cause of womens rights together? I think if they could have done that would of had a more dominate impact in getting what and where they wanted to be.--Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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was also very surprised by Edith Eudora Ammon's piece, but mainly that while they met some resistance in their journey west, they did not seem to get mistreated nearly has much as I would have expected. I would have thought that as two women going west to homestead they would have gotten scoffed at yet I don't recall this being mentioned in the recounting. Is this because it didn't happen or because they chose to ignore it?- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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In the Unequal Sisters reading by Linda Gordon I found very interesting the concept of social motherhood among the black women's welfare reform groups. These women were mostly single and were not biological mothers yet the main issues they focused on were familial in nature. I do not necessarily think that this indicates the selfless mindset of these women, but rather points to how strongly the doctrine of seperate spheres and the middle classs status quo, affected everyones' decisions during this time period. - Landon Davis<br />
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Another point worth mentioning from Gordon's essay was how incredibly interdependent these women were on each other. Ths interdependnce born out of necessity to survive eventually evolved into a powerful social and even political network. Some of these women's groups had real political power; distributing tax money etc. However, for a woman to be truly powerful within these groups she had to have connections to a powerful man, her husband, or father usually as is the case with Brandeis and Beyer. --- Landon Davis<br />
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The speech by Palmer in Modern American Women brought up an excellent point. This was the point that most of the people in power equate life for everyone to what their own life is like. So to the men in power at the time, opening the workforce up to women seemed unnatural, dangerous, and threatening. However, this was because they were thinking about their own wives and daughters entering the workforce, which neither the men or most likely the women would have wanted, seeing as they come from upper class families. However, to the less fortunate, opening the workforce ot women was essential. These women needed to work in order to survive, alot of them did not have husbands who could or would support them. I think that this is still a mistake we all make today, not just the politicians, we fail to put ourselves in other peoples' shoes. - Landon Davis<br />
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In reading "The Fair Women, Chicago, 1893" in Modern American Women, I found it interesting how Bertha Palmer is obviously struggling with the conflict between the idealized woman and the reality that many women face. At one point she says that it is the board's "belief that every woman, who is presiding over a happy home, is fulfilling her highest and truest function, and could not be lured from it by temptations offered by factories or studios." And then a few sentences later she talks about how it is only the favored class that can live in these conditions and that the majority of women are living under much poorer conditions. In a way, it seems as though she is still holding those ideals of women, but recognizing that most women cannot live up to them. I guess I'm just wondering how that differs from the rest of the people who simply hold those ideals, and is it even any better to recognize that the majority of women can't live up to the ideals but still hold them anyways? --Katie Nelson<br />
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In reading "Speaking Out Against Lynching" in Modern American Women, the thing that struck me most is the obvious double standard that exists between sexual relations that happen between a black man and a white woman in comparison to those that exist between a white man and a black woman. I know that I may be looking at this from a present perspective, but it just strikes me that it is considered rape for a black man to have sex with a white woman, but nothing is said when a white man has sex with a black woman (which happened very often). I think that this double standard brings up issues with both race and gender. It brings up issues with gender because it indicates that white women are incapable of consenting to sexual interactions with a black man (but men can consent to sexual relations with a black woman). And it brings up issues of race because of the differential treatment between the races, and thinking about the likeliness that black women have of being raped. --Katie Nelson<br />
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I also thought "Wages for Housework" was a clever and humorous article. Conger-Kaneko seemed to denounce traditional women use her writing style. I thought it was very interesting, though not valid in every case, that she compared women's roles to those of slaves. I would imagine this would be a very persuasive arguement to move women towards equal rights after being compared to the slaves who had been freed for decades. I cannot imagine how women seeking to stay in their tradtional roles would argue against Conger-Kaneko's points? Although I imagine they were probably not interested in reading Progressive Woman. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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After having read some of the above comments about Ida B. Wells' essay, I thought more about her argument and the social and political climate during the time of lynching. I do agree with Jessica that it was somewhat out of fear because the black men were no longer under the control of the white masters. Lynching was one of the ways they could exhibit their control over this sector of society. It obviously didn't have to do with whether black men were actually raping white women; for white men, it was about controlling that sector of society. In response to Mary Beth's comment about Wells' essay, the viewpoint of many white Southern men was not that they were raping black women. It was only their superiority over the inferior race, black women being the most inferior because they were black and women. --Kendall Haring<br />
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The discussion about moving up by way of housework and domestic services was brought up in the readings, and I believe that it ties in very well with what we've learned about in class. You can see the same sort of thing happening with the end of the Civil War, and clerical work. Like we discussed, women took clerical positions while men were away fighting, but soon after the war ended, those who kept their jobs soon learned that their jobs had become "secretarial." Those who once had the opportunity to move up in the business world while they were clerks soon found themselves stuck in the same place since secretarial work didn't provide much opportunity to elevate. But I agree, the question is, who decides what makes a position honorable? -Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I've decided that Nellie Bly is my new hero. The way she stood up to her boss and threatened to go to another paper if she wasn't allowed to "travel the world in 80 days" was incredible, especially for a woman of her time. What's even more interesting is how some of the stereotypes she faced still plague women today. For one, she's "too delicate" since she's a woman and would need protection. Second, her boss was concerned she'd have too much luggage, and if you think about women today (I know I, myself, am guilty of this) they pack much more than necessary. She even said herself, "Packing that bag was the most difficult undertaking of my life." It's just interesting to see the correlation and then quite impressive to see how she overcame gender stereotypes to beat "the man" at his own game. -Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I loved that the excerpt about bicycle riding by Frances Willard was included in the chapter. It's simplicity had the strongest message of encouragement for women to leave behind their usual constraints and go out into the world, to take control of their lives. She points out that for too long women have been constrained by their clothing and appearance. Willard asks women to take uncomplicated modern inventions and free themselves. My favorite quote from the piece was, "They that know nothing fear nothing." (p.18) It was a phrase that offered such quiet strength for the women of that time and even to women now. --Kendall Haring<br />
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I also enjoyed the piece by Frances Willard. In her narrative she mentions how her attire retricted her physical movement. "...from the day when, at sixteen years of age, I was enwrapped in the long skirts that impeded every footstep, I have detested walking and and felt with a certain noble disdain that the conventions of life had cut me off from what in the freedom of my prairie home had been one of life's sweetest joys."(19) It sounds as though Frances might has well been placed in chains. The implications of society dictating appropriate attire placed emotional and physical restrictions on women. Considering the attire of Mid-Eastern women today, I wonder if they harbor these same feelings?--LisaM<br />
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I know a few other of my classmates have commented on it, but I felt that I should also comment on the birth control article too. I was also amazed at some of the ways women tried to have abortions. I have to agree though with Kelly that birth control was a way men would lose power over women, but I don't understand why the men wanted to have so many children to try to provide for in his home. Why not use condoms or pull out? Were the men so uncaring they ignored the pain of the female they married and the hunger of their children? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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In response to Ashley W., I don't think the men of that time really thought about the pain of the female in child birth,etc. Just from researching my family, I found that my grandfathers father had 18 children from 2 different wives (the first wife died in childbirth) and birth control in that family was never an option. My grandfather is the youngest and was born in 1923. He told me that his father believed that the more children you had the better off you were because you had more people to work in the fields at harvest time and they felt you could have more livestock because there were more people to share the work. My grandfathers family was totally self sufficient and he says they barely noticed the depression because they were self sufficient. I think maybe a lot of men had the same mindset and didn't see their wives as "suffering" because it was the way they survived. That of course is a rural example I don't know if it would have been the same in the cities but I am sure it was somewhat different.~~MaryBeth C<br />
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Based on chapter 14, about black and white women’s vision of welfare activism, the book states that white women mostly helped out with political work and donations. Black women were more interested in helping there community and their churches. Could this be because black women saw other people as one class level and will help anyone, while white women will help out the upper class with politics to gain more women’s rights? <br />
–Ashley Scutari<br />
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I agree with Landon about how women were successful in gaining political power, but how far did that power get you? Even today I feel like women are still seen as the only way of gaining power is by having a strong male influence in the business beside you. <br />
–Ashley Scutari<br />
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In the “Modern American Women” book, the documents of Jane Addams were very interesting. Jane Addams was unsure of what she wanted to do after college. Most women just get married and have children. She wanted to figure out a way to help people especially women by restoring balance in activities that were along the traditional lines. In 1889 Addams created the Hull House; a place where she developed social services and recreational programs to help the less fortune. If Addams was another woman to break down doors for more opportunities for other women why didn’t women’s ways of work life change? Also this shows that women do not have to get married right after college. <br />
-Ashley Scutari<br />
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"The Feminist Challenge to the Privatized Home" was an interesting perspective on the home. Instead of telling women they could do it all, she asks women to consider working together with the family and other women to help them combine work and home. It seems so different from the feminist perspective that prevails today where women can do it all: home, work, and family. --Kendall Haring<br />
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In "Modern American Women" I found this quote "We feel therefore, obliged to state our believe that every woman who is presiding over a happy home, is fulfilling her highest and truest function, and could not be lured from it by temptations offered by factories or studies." All I have to say to this is wow have times changed since this was written. Women are making it a priority to be an asset to the workforce. --- Rose Ferguson<br />
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I found it interesting to read about Alice Hamilton and how she got a medical degree from the University of MIchigan. (I am biased after growing up in Ann Arbor!) I thought it was interesting to read about her train of thought as to why a medical degree. She pursued medicine not because of an interest but because she knew she could excel in it even as a woman. --- Rose Ferguson<br />
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I found this quote powerful and couldn't not post it. "We may convince the world that ability is not a matter of sex." --- Rose Ferguson<br />
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One thing I noticed from these reading is that these women are all they same. They all come from essentially the same place. They are women who are well educated, upper-middle class, and single or married later in life. Where are the accounts of the poorer working class women? -- Christine Wuebker<br />
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While reading "A Woman Homesteader" the only thing that kept popping into my mind was that frustrating game of Oregon Trail. After playing that for hours on end in elementary school, I understand that making the journey westward was nothing but difficult. So reading the entry by Edith was fascinating when she and her sister discussed how easy it would be to "stick it out" on a piece of land for eight months. What I'm curious about, is was it typical for these women to go out by themselves like this? I know in class we talked about men going off on their own to start a new life and help their family, but I don't recall discussing that many women going on their own, especially for financial reasons. And would fathers have been that willing to let their daughters make their own choices, especially ones of this magnitude? It seems kind of out of character in my opinion. Nonetheless, rock on to both of them for being as gutsy as they were. -Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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It was so sad reading in Mamie Field's article about being African-American teachers along with her sister for African-American children. They got what was barely a building, no space, no blackboard and it was in such a bad location. The part that got to me the most was when she said that the white teachers never cared whether the black children came to school or not no matter waht the reason (poverty) and the fact that since these childrens' parents hadn't gone to school themselves, sometimes they didn't understand the great importance of getting their children educated. -Emely Amaya<br />
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Nellie Bly's article about wanting to be a female world travler started off as a woman trying to prove that she can do what a man can but then turns humorous when she's talking about how to her packing lightly meant stuffing everything, even her moisturizing face cream and sadly parting with her evening dress. Just wasn't really helping our case about how we CAN pack light, even if to us packing light means packing a bit more than a man. - Emely Amaya.<br />
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Like Kendall, I also liked the excerpt about Frances Willard riding her bike. A quote that stood out to me was, "I also wanted to help women to a wider world, for I hold that the more interests women and men have in common, in thought, in word, and deed, the happier it will be for the home." My interpretation of what Willard was saying is that it would be beneficial for everyone, both men and women, if women were allowed to experience the world outside the home the way men were allowed to. -Marilyn<br />
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I thought the Jane Addams excerpt was inspirational. Even though she had no idea what she wanted to do after college, she created an organization that had such a huge impact on the community and the country. Not only did she help those who were less fortunate, but she also helped women like herself who did not want to marry and start a family immediately after college - they wanted to achieve something greater. -Marilyn<br />
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Yay for birth contol!!! Reading about Mrs. Sachs case made me sad. It got me thinking how many women died this way? For some reason after reading me it hit me, women didn't just start trying abortions at the turn of the 20th century, this was a practice that I'm sure is as old as time!- Emely Amaya.<br />
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Today’s women have changed in part because of the women in Modern American Women, and of course time. Women are women no matter when in time they are women. Does that make since. For example, the biological issues women have always had has not changed, it has just gotten better. Women still get pregnant, time has made it easier, women use birth control methods, time has made it easier, and in most cases women are still the main caregiver for children. Time, and exceptional women have made life better for women but some things will never change. For example, In most cases women have always been chatty, they have been into fashion, and have clicks of women in which they have bonded. This part of womanhood has not changed and never will. I feel women have came a long way in their fight for equality, (we have a women running SUCCESSFULLY for president). Although time has passed, the makeup of women is still the same. --Nikole Wellman<br />
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The reading on Jane Addams and Mother Jones were my favorite. These women touched and changed so many peoples lives. They seem so passionate for there cause and did not let critics of their day stop them. They are truly exceptional. -- Nikole Wellman</div>Lmeissnerhttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_4_Questions/Comments328--Week 4 Questions/Comments2008-02-07T13:53:12Z<p>Lmeissner: </p>
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<div>While reading the primary source documents of the ''Modern American Women'' I found it a bit disconcerting that the women were so similar to the women of today. It is kind of a shame that history repeats itself so fully. I suppose it is evidence that change is gradual and more of an evolution. --Justin Mattos<br />
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I agree with Justin. The women in those readings were so similar to today's women. I would have hoped that women of today have come a long way from their fight for equality. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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Although it was an interesting study, Linda Gordon's study "Black and White Visions of Welfare: Women's Welfare Activism, 1890-1945" came very close to simply listing the differences between the two races of activists. Her conclusions did not seem to have a lot of depth. --Justin Mattos<br />
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I have to agree with Justin Mattos on his comment about Linda Gordon's essay. I too felt that that she really just listed the differences and similarities without any real conclusion. However, I do believe to have a better sense of what was happening, it is good to know that just because welfare groups existed, they didn't all go after the same things. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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It does seem like she just listed the differences between the two groups of reformers, however once I saw the tables in the back I was impressed. Until I saw those tables it hadnt sunk in that Gordon actually went back and found real women activist and studied them. Maybe I am just not used to studying history but I thought that was pretty cool. After i saw those tables with the lists of actual women activists I looked at the reading in a whole different light. - Landon Davis<br />
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I think it was difficult to follow along with Gordon's essay, it did not flow. The chart in the back did help it all make since. -- Nikole Wellman <br />
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I also observed in the primary source documents of ''Modern American Women'' that the stereotypes of women have only changed slightly today. Women are still thought to be more fragile than men, and there is still a need to protect them from harm. It has only been within the last decade that the idea of a working women has gained mainstream acceptance. I wonder if this observation stems from the fact that the primary source documents that I read were from the perspective of educated women. --Justin Mattos<br />
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I think so...I think the same would be true today. Educated womens perspectives will be different from non educated women.<br />
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Chapter 14 of Unequal Sisters deals with the differences in welfare activism between African American and white women. Gordon points out that white women had more of an ability to work politically and seek donations from those who would be more able to help (i.e. congressional representatives or other political figures) while the African American women focused their activities around the community and church. She continues, to point out that white women activists focused more on charity and relief while black women sought to provide for more universal needs such as education and health. If there were poor or unfortunate people in both groups (black and white), why is it that white women activists focused on particular people while black women activists focused on reform that is more general? Did societal norms during this time make it more inappropriate to provide individual charity to black women? --Jessica Kilday<br />
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I found it interesting to read “Speaking out Against Lynching” by Ida B. Wells. She discusses the harsh punishments that African Americans were subjected to due to the stereotypes that white men and women held. On p age 15 she states, “With the Southern white man, any misalliance existing between a white woman and a colored man is a sufficient foundation for the charge of rape. The southern white man says that it is impossible for a voluntary alliance to exist between a white woman and a colored man, and therefore, the fact of an alliance is a proof of force.” Given this, would it also be considered rape if it were a black woman and a white man? Moreover, who would be at fault, would it be the man forcing himself onto the woman, or the woman because she is black? --Jessica Kilday<br />
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I also thought the reading by Wells was interesting. She only discusses the accusations that black men were raping white women. She never mentions black women being raped. Was it just something that they didn't talk about or something that they just took as a fact of life during those times? I thought it interesting that discussing how black men were falsely accused of rape and lynched even when it was well known at the time that it was a concentual relationship, but then went on to say that even when the white man left for war he left the white women to be protected by the black men. So why all of a sudden is the lynching of black men on the rise? Was it because now they were free and more like competition to the whites than they had been before?~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
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In response to Mary Beth, I do think that to some extent the lynching of black was due to competition, but also due to fear. Before the African Americans were free, white men had never considered them to be a threat. When they left home they trusted that they would return with their home and family in the same state. It never crossed their minds that it would be possible for their family to be in danger because there had never been any reason to mistrust. Wells states on page 15 that "the world has accepted the story that the Negro is a monster which the Southern white man has painted him." With this image that is created, when the African Americans are free, the white men thus see it as the release of "a monster" and they no longer feel safe and trustworthy as they did before, when "the monster" was contained. --Jessica Kilday<br />
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Following up on Jessica, I do believe that lynching became a catch all that helped the white race in the South to remove those blacks that did not remain in a subservient state. Lynching was not restricted just to blacks; there is a famous lynching case that involved a Jewish businessman, Leo Frank. The evidence implicating him to the rape and murder of a young, white girl came from a black man. The evidence was shaky, but Frank was convicted. He was removed from a prison by a mob that hung him. By the way...the mob consisted of notable public figures in the community.--LisaM<br />
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To add on to the discussion so far about the "speaking out against lynching" i also agree that to a certain extent accusing black men of rape was a form of taking blacks out of the workforce competition. As one part of the article says, whites started looking upong blacks as a threat once they saw that they were starting to become educated and acquire money. To me, this is further emphasized by the fact that it wasn't until several generations that whites started making these great rape accusiations against blacks that raises a red flag in my mind as to the purpose of these accusations. - Emely Amaya<br />
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I also found the reading on Wells interesting. In response to Mary Beth's point about the black women not officially being raped I believe it has some background in the idea that black women were naturally more passionate (less pure) than white women and therefore couldn't be raped because they would still be willing to have that relationship. I also agree with Jessica in that i think the lynching increased because there was a greater amount of fear now about the black community being free and the white community felt the need to use fear to control them. Likewise, in the South (where lynching was common) it might have been a way for the white community to maintain control and limit the amount of change that took place despite slavery being over. - Elizabeth Frank<br />
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In response to Jessica's question, I think that white women were able to focus more on specific groups, because unlike black women, white women just had to focus on issues of sexual inequality whereas black women had the issues of sexual AND racial inequality going against them, as well as establishing themselves in a newly free world. Chapter 14 of Unequal Sister does highlight that the two major focus point for black women groups was education and health care. These were issues that obviously had to be taken care of after slavery because the whites weren't going to provide it fully for them (yes, a lot of groups DID help) but they knew they had to rely on themselves(as the article shows) to fully develop and not remain stagnant and looked down upon by the white community.- Emely Amaya.<br />
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I also found in interesting in Gordon's piece on Welfare that she notes one specific difference. She states that the white groups that were looking for reform were looking at people "other" than themselves. They saw themselves as helping people less fortunate than themselves but still with a "moral" aspect between who was the "worthy and the unworthy poor" (pg 225). In contrast the black groups focused on middle class and poor blacks. The black groups also focused more on education and health instead of charitys like the whites. ~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
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After reading ''Modern American Women'' I do agree with my classmates on how the perception of women has not changed drastically. It is now socially acceptable for a women to go off into the business world and make a name for herself. Even jobs such a teacher and a nurse that were considered women's work are still dominated today by women. Since I am an education major I go into a lot of elementary schools and the staff is female dominated. I think it is wrong that today where anyone can be anything, people still stereotype jobs and classify things as mens work or females work. This eve goes beyond the adults of the nation. We start these stereotypes early in children's lives. I have always remembered when I was younger and would go to Mc Donalds they would ask "would you like a girl toy or a boy toy?" Sometimes yeah I wanted the princess toy but other times I also wanted the hot wheels car. It is so disturbing to know that we are still dealing with this issue. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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After reading the article on Women's welfare activism,I too felt that she really just listed the differences and similarities without any real conclusion.However on the second page of the article, it talks about the differences of how white and black women were raising money. It says oh of course women raise money but they were also so busy attending White House conferences and correspondence with Supreme Court Justices and the black women it just states they organized bake sales, rummage sales and church dinners. I guess after reading this my biggest pet peeve is that yes white women did have more power in society. However, its not like there were no black women doing the same things. I just don't like how these women are talked down, for what they had their time was just as well spent as a white women. This really just made me feel that white women were more interested in their social lives or making them selves look better and black women worked as a team, they worked for the well being of everyone. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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While reading Chapter 14, I began to think about the possibly that the difference between the perspective of white women and black women on the poor that they helped was a matter of progression or evolution. As the black women received more power, it seemed that they became more like the white women and began to explicitly look down on the poorer black social classes. I saw this occurrence when the author talked about the views of the black poor by educated black women being the same as white women.--Justin Mattos<br />
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While reading MAW, I came across an exert from Ida B. Wells, which in truth makes sense, but I didn't expect to see exert from something I have read in the past. There piece of the article here touched me almost as much as it touched me then. The black women were not treated equally in any light, and were not considered to be able to be 'raped' because they were not pure and pious like the white women. Part of that comes through in the last paragraph of the exert. It makes me mad to think that people once thought like this, but what is even more scary is some people still do. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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After reading a bit more in the Modern American Women book, I find myself getting emotionally involved with the information presented. I felt anger towards the father who was treating his daughter like a sack of trash in "An immigrant Daughter Awakens to the Possibilities of the New World." I felt heartbroke when he slapped her because she was leaving. At the same time I know this happened a lot towards women... and it breaks my heart to know what some women had to go through. I've been lucky to have a father who was supportive in everything I chose and only opposed my decisions when they were bad decisions. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I agree with Ashley. I also felt angry towards the father in "An immigrant Daughter Awakens to the Possibilities of the New World." But what I also thought was sad and telling from this piece was how the mother quietly gave the money to the daughter so that she could get away and start over fresh. We all know that parents want a better life for their children than they had themselves. I think that this is a perfect example of a mother wanting her daughter to have a better life than she herself had--almost as though she is hoping that she can live vicariously through her daughter's freedom. --Katie Nelson<br />
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In response to the comments on "An Immigrant Daughter," it is frustrating to see relationships that suppress one of the parties. This story took place in the early 20th century, but these relationships still exist today. Take a look at family structures in the Mid-East; if a woman steps out of the place designated by men,the ultimate punishment is death.--LisaM<br />
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The readings in MAW all seemed to have a common component, which was the need to control. This played out differently in each narrative, but it did exist. In the essay on lynching, the white population used the act of lynching to suppress segments of the population that was considered threatening. "Immigrant Daughter" revealed the ludicrous disagreement over two cents, but the bigger issue was that she had not consulted him first.--LisaM<br />
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I completely agree with Ashley since I was also touched by some of the readings in Modern American Women. I also was upset at the way the young girl was treated by her father in "An Immigrant Daughter Awakens to the Possibilities of the New World". I always knew parents treated their daughters in such a harsh way at times, but it was very hard to see how harshly she was treated. I have to say if I was in her position I also would have left home. Though I did enjoy how she points out that she got in so much trouble for taking the girls word that they would get the 2 cents she owed when she says her dad had given away a lot more merchandise without any payment at all. - Elizabeth Frank<br />
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Bertha Palmer's speech at the opening of the Women's Building was so progressive except for the part where she says: "It willing acknowledges that the industries, arts, and commerce of the world have been for centuries in the hands of men who have carefully trained themselves for the responsibilities devolving upon them, and who have, consequently, without question, contributed vastly more than women to the valuable thought, research, invention, science, art and literature, which have become the rich heritage of the human race." Does she actually believe this? Or is she catering to what the public will most except in order to support her movement? - Cat Debelius<br />
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I found Anzia Yeziercka's (Immigrant Daughter) story very interesting as far as the existance of two worlds (old/new) for young immigrant women. I feel like today American woman still struggle with existing in between the Old and the New world. It is amazing how sometimes problems never get solved they just evolve. - Cat Debelius<br />
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Mary Harris seemed incredible against the predominant constructs of gender and the entire system of change in America. Clearly she has struggled greatly in her lifetime and criticized women's methods of change... yet she seems to offer now feasibly alternative route. - Cat Debelius<br />
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The difference between the white activism and the black activism discussed in Unequal Sisters was not very surprising to me. I figured that since black women were also fighting for civil rights their fight would be stronger. They seemed to have the largest networks of people working toward the cause. They held fundraising fuctions to help raise the money needed to fund their programs. It is easy to understand how these women bonded in the way that they did. The bond that these women grew amongst themselves was largely due to the having to rely on eachother so much. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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I agree with Kellye about how it wasn't surprising about the differences between black and white activism. The black women had so much more to fight for, and not only that but how education was their most important area of activism instead of voting like for the white women.-- Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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I was impressed with the vast number of organizations that were formed as a result of the fundraising efforts of activist women. I was even more shocked to find the cost of maintaining these organizations and that these women were able to raise the money needed. ---Kellye Sorber<br />
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I thought it was very interesting to learn how educated these women were. I knew some women were getting degrees but not this many and not African Americans. I also thought it was interesting to see how important, influential, or rich the parents of these women were even the African American women had wealthy parents. -- Christine Wuebker<br />
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Another thing I found intersting was the view these women had about the role of women. I would have thought that since these women were out in the work force trying to bring about change they would have supported other women in the work place but they don't. It also was a surprise to learn about how many of the women were single, divorced, widowed, married, or living with a "partner." The interacting and sense of community created amoung these women is amazing. -- Christine Wuebker<br />
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It surprises me that black women started to develop social classes just as the white women. Black women who started to gain power, like the power whites had, these black women started to treat the poor and less fortunate black women like a low class. This really bothers me because after everything these women have been through you would except them to try to help each other out, but instead they forget about them and treat them as peasants. What my question is, are these higher powered black women doing this because they are trying to be whiter? Do they care more about upper class societies views on them? -- Amanda Taub<br />
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I was also surprised on how the black women started a social class just like the white women, but to try and answer your question(s) Amanda, I don't think they were trying to be whiter but maybe instead were so tired of the white social class they were instead competing now against them on what race was better as well as trying to gain the much wanted respect from white society they have wanted for so long. --Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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Kind of going off of what both Amanda and Michelle said, I think we have to keep in mind that there was a social ideal that all women had to try to live up to. The domestic of separate spheres was still alive and well and I feel like some black women felt that they had to adhere to that doctrine in order to make some headway in the world. Now, I'm not saying that's how all black women felt or acted, but I'm sure it played some sort of part. But what upsets me the most, and it's talked about in Anna Cooper's piece, "Black Women Plan to Lead Their Race," is that black women were subjected to the bottom of the social hierarchy on two accounts: race AND gender. No matter which way they tried to advance, they always had someone trying to hold them back. -Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I agree with Cat and the Anzia Yeziercka's (Immigrant Daughter)piece. Women are stuck dealing with the old and the new world. The problem with todays society is that only some people truly believe in the modern day women however, a good amount of people are so stuck in the past. Its not fair how women have to fight for so much when people need to stop living in the past. --Amanda Taub<br />
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Along with many other posts about the emotional involvement MAW commands of its readers, I found that "Margaret Sanger's Epiphany over Birth Control" opened my eyes to the desperate and difficult position of being a women with no control over her own body. Still today there are few practical birth control methods for the women that need it most. The pill and other hormonal methods are not cheap and condoms primarily place responsiblity on the male partner. It was heart-breaking to hear "a baby born dead, great relief - the death of an older child, sorrow but again relief" (86) as it must have been for Sanger. Sanger was not on a crusade to put a stop to child birth or to change the understanding that sex was for procreation, but rather to bring peace of mind to the women that so desperatly needed it. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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I completely agree with Meredith's statements about birth control and the fact that a woman had no control over her own body. Even today, although many forms of birth control are much more readily available to prevent pregnancy, women still do not have complete control over their bodies due to the regulation of abortion under Roe v. Wade. -Marilyn<br />
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I also was very touched by "Margaret Sanger's Epiphany over Birth Control". I knew that women had been attempting ways to control the number of children they had for a very long time but I had no idea that someone could self induce an abortion (especially since i really don't know how that works). I also found it so shocking that even married women didn't want to put faith in their husbands desire not to have any more children even though it would reduce the stress on his life and make paying bills easier. I would have thought they would also be glad to have less children to take care of. -Elizabeth Frank<br />
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In response to your comment Elizabeth, I'm not so sure it was the fact that they would have less children to take care of so much as the women would be in control of their own bodies and be making family altering decisions. Women were supposed to obey their husbands and if they took a stand and decided that they were going to prevent their family from increasing, then the husband would, in essence, lose a bit of power over his wife. I think that was what terrified them more than anything else. Some men actually were thrilled that their wives were looking into birth control. -Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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After taking History of Sexuality last semester and discussing Margaret Sanger I was not at all surprised with the "Margaret Sanger's Epihany over Birth Control." It was and still is hard to be a women when it comes to birth control. Women today are far better off than the women of Margaret Sanger's time. It is so much easier for women to obtain birth control today then ever before. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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I was very suprised to learn when reading Edith Eudora Ammons' piece about life as a female homesteader that women were more successful in staying with their claims by 6%. As she recalled being driven further and further into the unsettled land I can only imagine how disconnecting and daunting that ride must have been. The Ammons sister's hard work is clear proof of a way in which American women were able to take a different route and break the social expectations. After reading about the women who went west with their husbands or in order to find a husband in the past weeks, it was very uplifting to read about the other opportunities the west had for women. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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I thought "Wages for Housework" was the best essay, it made me laugh. I thought it was very interesting on how she capitalized certain sentences in order to show her frustration and to get her point across. I also thought this essay sounded very much like a modern day women and her frustration with being a house wife and how it is not looked at as being a job, because a lot more than just cleaning and cooking goes into taking care of a house and family. --Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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In Nellie Bly's essay she says, "I had such a strong belief in the world's greeting me as I greeted it, that I refused to arm myself. I knew if my conduct was proper I should always find men ready to protect me,..." (pg6-7) She is amazing in the fact that she was going to attempt to fly around the world and the fact that she was a women was going to make this awesome, but in this quote she seems completely oblivious to the real world, and that not everyone you meet is going to like you, aswell as thinking any man would be willing to protect her. Its like she ready to be considered equal to man by doing this great thing but yet still depend on them for protection. --Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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Gordon's essay in US as Kellye mentions as well as I have responded to her comment above about not being suprised about the differences in white and black women activism, but my question is why could women in general, black and white just come together and be the first ones to over look race and fight the cause of womens rights together? I think if they could have done that would of had a more dominate impact in getting what and where they wanted to be.--Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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was also very surprised by Edith Eudora Ammon's piece, but mainly that while they met some resistance in their journey west, they did not seem to get mistreated nearly has much as I would have expected. I would have thought that as two women going west to homestead they would have gotten scoffed at yet I don't recall this being mentioned in the recounting. Is this because it didn't happen or because they chose to ignore it?- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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In the Unequal Sisters reading by Linda Gordon I found very interesting the concept of social motherhood among the black women's welfare reform groups. These women were mostly single and were not biological mothers yet the main issues they focused on were familial in nature. I do not necessarily think that this indicates the selfless mindset of these women, but rather points to how strongly the doctrine of seperate spheres and the middle classs status quo, affected everyones' decisions during this time period. - Landon Davis<br />
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Another point worth mentioning from Gordon's essay was how incredibly interdependent these women were on each other. Ths interdependnce born out of necessity to survive eventually evolved into a powerful social and even political network. Some of these women's groups had real political power; distributing tax money etc. However, for a woman to be truly powerful within these groups she had to have connections to a powerful man, her husband, or father usually as is the case with Brandeis and Beyer. --- Landon Davis<br />
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The speech by Palmer in Modern American Women brought up an excellent point. This was the point that most of the people in power equate life for everyone to what their own life is like. So to the men in power at the time, opening the workforce up to women seemed unnatural, dangerous, and threatening. However, this was because they were thinking about their own wives and daughters entering the workforce, which neither the men or most likely the women would have wanted, seeing as they come from upper class families. However, to the less fortunate, opening the workforce ot women was essential. These women needed to work in order to survive, alot of them did not have husbands who could or would support them. I think that this is still a mistake we all make today, not just the politicians, we fail to put ourselves in other peoples' shoes. - Landon Davis<br />
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In reading "The Fair Women, Chicago, 1893" in Modern American Women, I found it interesting how Bertha Palmer is obviously struggling with the conflict between the idealized woman and the reality that many women face. At one point she says that it is the board's "belief that every woman, who is presiding over a happy home, is fulfilling her highest and truest function, and could not be lured from it by temptations offered by factories or studios." And then a few sentences later she talks about how it is only the favored class that can live in these conditions and that the majority of women are living under much poorer conditions. In a way, it seems as though she is still holding those ideals of women, but recognizing that most women cannot live up to them. I guess I'm just wondering how that differs from the rest of the people who simply hold those ideals, and is it even any better to recognize that the majority of women can't live up to the ideals but still hold them anyways? --Katie Nelson<br />
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In reading "Speaking Out Against Lynching" in Modern American Women, the thing that struck me most is the obvious double standard that exists between sexual relations that happen between a black man and a white woman in comparison to those that exist between a white man and a black woman. I know that I may be looking at this from a present perspective, but it just strikes me that it is considered rape for a black man to have sex with a white woman, but nothing is said when a white man has sex with a black woman (which happened very often). I think that this double standard brings up issues with both race and gender. It brings up issues with gender because it indicates that white women are incapable of consenting to sexual interactions with a black man (but men can consent to sexual relations with a black woman). And it brings up issues of race because of the differential treatment between the races, and thinking about the likeliness that black women have of being raped. --Katie Nelson<br />
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I also thought "Wages for Housework" was a clever and humorous article. Conger-Kaneko seemed to denounce traditional women use her writing style. I thought it was very interesting, though not valid in every case, that she compared women's roles to those of slaves. I would imagine this would be a very persuasive arguement to move women towards equal rights after being compared to the slaves who had been freed for decades. I cannot imagine how women seeking to stay in their tradtional roles would argue against Conger-Kaneko's points? Although I imagine they were probably not interested in reading Progressive Woman. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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After having read some of the above comments about Ida B. Wells' essay, I thought more about her argument and the social and political climate during the time of lynching. I do agree with Jessica that it was somewhat out of fear because the black men were no longer under the control of the white masters. Lynching was one of the ways they could exhibit their control over this sector of society. It obviously didn't have to do with whether black men were actually raping white women; for white men, it was about controlling that sector of society. In response to Mary Beth's comment about Wells' essay, the viewpoint of many white Southern men was not that they were raping black women. It was only their superiority over the inferior race, black women being the most inferior because they were black and women. --Kendall Haring<br />
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The discussion about moving up by way of housework and domestic services was brought up in the readings, and I believe that it ties in very well with what we've learned about in class. You can see the same sort of thing happening with the end of the Civil War, and clerical work. Like we discussed, women took clerical positions while men were away fighting, but soon after the war ended, those who kept their jobs soon learned that their jobs had become "secretarial." Those who once had the opportunity to move up in the business world while they were clerks soon found themselves stuck in the same place since secretarial work didn't provide much opportunity to elevate. But I agree, the question is, who decides what makes a position honorable? -Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I've decided that Nellie Bly is my new hero. The way she stood up to her boss and threatened to go to another paper if she wasn't allowed to "travel the world in 80 days" was incredible, especially for a woman of her time. What's even more interesting is how some of the stereotypes she faced still plague women today. For one, she's "too delicate" since she's a woman and would need protection. Second, her boss was concerned she'd have too much luggage, and if you think about women today (I know I, myself, am guilty of this) they pack much more than necessary. She even said herself, "Packing that bag was the most difficult undertaking of my life." It's just interesting to see the correlation and then quite impressive to see how she overcame gender stereotypes to beat "the man" at his own game. -Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I loved that the excerpt about bicycle riding by Frances Willard was included in the chapter. It's simplicity had the strongest message of encouragement for women to leave behind their usual constraints and go out into the world, to take control of their lives. She points out that for too long women have been constrained by their clothing and appearance. Willard asks women to take uncomplicated modern inventions and free themselves. My favorite quote from the piece was, "They that know nothing fear nothing." (p.18) It was a phrase that offered such quiet strength for the women of that time and even to women now. --Kendall Haring<br />
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I also enjoyed the piece by Frances Willard. In her narrative she mentions how her attire retricted her physical movement. "...from the day when, at sixteen years of age, I was enwrapped in the long skirts that impeded every footstep, I have detested walking and and felt with a certain noble disdain that the conventions of life had cut me off from what in the freedom of my prairie home had been one of life's sweetest joys."(19) It sounds as though Frances might has well been placed in chains. The implications of society dictating appropriate attire placed emotional and physical restrictions on women. Considering the attire of Mid-Eastern women today, I wonder if they harbor these same feelings?--LisaM<br />
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I know a few other of my classmates have commented on it, but I felt that I should also comment on the birth control article too. I was also amazed at some of the ways women tried to have abortions. I have to agree though with Kelly that birth control was a way men would lose power over women, but I don't understand why the men wanted to have so many children to try to provide for in his home. Why not use condoms or pull out? Were the men so uncaring they ignored the pain of the female they married and the hunger of their children? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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In response to Ashley W., I don't think the men of that time really thought about the pain of the female in child birth,etc. Just from researching my family, I found that my grandfathers father had 18 children from 2 different wives (the first wife died in childbirth) and birth control in that family was never an option. My grandfather is the youngest and was born in 1923. He told me that his father believed that the more children you had the better off you were because you had more people to work in the fields at harvest time and they felt you could have more livestock because there were more people to share the work. My grandfathers family was totally self sufficient and he says they barely noticed the depression because they were self sufficient. I think maybe a lot of men had the same mindset and didn't see their wives as "suffering" because it was the way they survived. That of course is a rural example I don't know if it would have been the same in the cities but I am sure it was somewhat different.~~MaryBeth C<br />
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Based on chapter 14, about black and white women’s vision of welfare activism, the book states that white women mostly helped out with political work and donations. Black women were more interested in helping there community and their churches. Could this be because black women saw other people as one class level and will help anyone, while white women will help out the upper class with politics to gain more women’s rights? <br />
–Ashley Scutari<br />
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I agree with Landon about how women were successful in gaining political power, but how far did that power get you? Even today I feel like women are still seen as the only way of gaining power is by having a strong male influence in the business beside you. <br />
–Ashley Scutari<br />
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In the “Modern American Women” book, the documents of Jane Addams were very interesting. Jane Addams was unsure of what she wanted to do after college. Most women just get married and have children. She wanted to figure out a way to help people especially women by restoring balance in activities that were along the traditional lines. In 1889 Addams created the Hull House; a place where she developed social services and recreational programs to help the less fortune. If Addams was another woman to break down doors for more opportunities for other women why didn’t women’s ways of work life change? Also this shows that women do not have to get married right after college. <br />
-Ashley Scutari<br />
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"The Feminist Challenge to the Privatized Home" was an interesting perspective on the home. Instead of telling women they could do it all, she asks women to consider working together with the family and other women to help them combine work and home. It seems so different from the feminist perspective that prevails today where women can do it all: home, work, and family. --Kendall Haring<br />
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In "Modern American Women" I found this quote "We feel therefore, obliged to state our believe that every woman who is presiding over a happy home, is fulfilling her highest and truest function, and could not be lured from it by temptations offered by factories or studies." All I have to say to this is wow have times changed since this was written. Women are making it a priority to be an asset to the workforce. --- Rose Ferguson<br />
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I found it interesting to read about Alice Hamilton and how she got a medical degree from the University of MIchigan. (I am biased after growing up in Ann Arbor!) I thought it was interesting to read about her train of thought as to why a medical degree. She pursued medicine not because of an interest but because she knew she could excel in it even as a woman. --- Rose Ferguson<br />
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I found this quote powerful and couldn't not post it. "We may convince the world that ability is not a matter of sex." --- Rose Ferguson<br />
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One thing I noticed from these reading is that these women are all they same. They all come from essentially the same place. They are women who are well educated, upper-middle class, and single or married later in life. Where are the accounts of the poorer working class women? -- Christine Wuebker<br />
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While reading "A Woman Homesteader" the only thing that kept popping into my mind was that frustrating game of Oregon Trail. After playing that for hours on end in elementary school, I understand that making the journey westward was nothing but difficult. So reading the entry by Edith was fascinating when she and her sister discussed how easy it would be to "stick it out" on a piece of land for eight months. What I'm curious about, is was it typical for these women to go out by themselves like this? I know in class we talked about men going off on their own to start a new life and help their family, but I don't recall discussing that many women going on their own, especially for financial reasons. And would fathers have been that willing to let their daughters make their own choices, especially ones of this magnitude? It seems kind of out of character in my opinion. Nonetheless, rock on to both of them for being as gutsy as they were. -Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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It was so sad reading in Mamie Field's article about being African-American teachers along with her sister for African-American children. They got what was barely a building, no space, no blackboard and it was in such a bad location. The part that got to me the most was when she said that the white teachers never cared whether the black children came to school or not no matter waht the reason (poverty) and the fact that since these childrens' parents hadn't gone to school themselves, sometimes they didn't understand the great importance of getting their children educated. -Emely Amaya<br />
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Nellie Bly's article about wanting to be a female world travler started off as a woman trying to prove that she can do what a man can but then turns humorous when she's talking about how to her packing lightly meant stuffing everything, even her moisturizing face cream and sadly parting with her evening dress. Just wasn't really helping our case about how we CAN pack light, even if to us packing light means packing a bit more than a man. - Emely Amaya.<br />
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Like Kendall, I also liked the excerpt about Frances Willard riding her bike. A quote that stood out to me was, "I also wanted to help women to a wider world, for I hold that the more interests women and men have in common, in thought, in word, and deed, the happier it will be for the home." My interpretation of what Willard was saying is that it would be beneficial for everyone, both men and women, if women were allowed to experience the world outside the home the way men were allowed to. -Marilyn<br />
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I thought the Jane Addams excerpt was inspirational. Even though she had no idea what she wanted to do after college, she created an organization that had such a huge impact on the community and the country. Not only did she help those who were less fortunate, but she also helped women like herself who did not want to marry and start a family immediately after college - they wanted to achieve something greater. -Marilyn<br />
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Yay for birth contol!!! Reading about Mrs. Sachs case made me sad. It got me thinking how many women died this way? For some reason after reading me it hit me, women didn't just start trying abortions at the turn of the 20th century, this was a practice that I'm sure is as old as time!- Emely Amaya.<br />
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Today’s women have changed in part because of the women in Modern American Women, and of course time. Women are women no matter when in time they are women. Does that make since. For example, the biological issues women have always had has not changed, it has just gotten better. Women still get pregnant, time has made it easier, women use birth control methods, time has made it easier, and in most cases women are still the main caregiver for children. Time, and exceptional women have made life better for women but some things will never change. For example, In most cases women have always been chatty, they have been into fashion, and have clicks of women in which they have bonded. This part of womanhood has not changed and never will. I feel women have came a long way in their fight for equality, (we have a women running SUCCESSFULLY for president). Although time has passed, the makeup of women is still the same. --Nikole Wellman<br />
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The reading on Jane Addams and Mother Jones were my favorite. These women touched and changed so many peoples lives. They seem so passionate for there cause and did not let critics of their day stop them. They are truly exceptional. -- Nikole Wellman</div>Lmeissnerhttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_3_Questions/Comments328--Week 3 Questions/Comments2008-01-31T03:37:44Z<p>Lmeissner: </p>
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<div>The one thing that immediately struck me while I began reading the Castaneda piece was the classification between "Spanish" and "Mexican" and how, to me, that distinction seems to still be true, on a certain level, today. Castaneda points out how Spanish women were always purer and more mysterious; romanticized in a sense. The Mexican women on the other hand were impure on pretty much every count. Does anyone else feel that this stereotype between the two ethnicities still holds up today or is that just me? Based on general opinion, I feel as though this major difference still sticks out in people's minds (not saying that this distinction is right in any sense.) - Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I was extremely impressed by the scale of the Cherokee Seminary school. For it's time, it seemed like an impressive operation for a people so tremendously discriminated against in America, excepting the multiple burnings down of the building! I was, however, struck by the authors constant use of the word "progressive", which to me is usually a positive word, meaning moving toward improved living/way of life and education for the public. The author used it so negatively though, as a way to describe the discriminating, racially-mixed Cherokee girls and their families usually. Looking at her writings from a historians perspective I see how the word might have been used by the people themselves as a justifier of their own belief of superiority, but the author should not have used it herself because it makes it seem as though she is drawing the line herself between the status of tradition verse progression and pure-blood verse mixed-blood.~Jackie Reed<br />
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The readings this week largely had to do with how historians have struggled to characterize women by race and gender. Women of other races were frequently overlooked. As Castaneda points out in chapter four, when women were studied, it was either because of their significance in relation to someone important, such as a governor. The experiences of any other women would be generalized to stereotype women of that particular race overall. This is interesting to keep in mind when reading “The Life and Legend of Gertrudis Barceló in Nineteenth-Century Santa Fe” by Gonzalez, in which he discusses how the life of one woman (Dona Gertrudis Barceló) impacted the image that people held of Spanish-Mexican women. Why is it that the lives and experiences of minority women could see easily and readily be generalized? --Jessica Kilday<br />
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I thought it was very interesting to read “Too Dark to Be Angels” by Mihesuah. The article described the all female seminary for Cherokee girls. When examining the experiences of Cherokee women in an all female setting, it easier to see the impact that race and economics played in their lives. You no longer have the issue of breaking down the study by gender and race, nor do you have the question of which plays a more significant role. In looking at the experiences of the Cherokee women in this school, it is easy to see that segregation occurred even when the playing field seemed to be leveled. The more white blood the females had, the more accepted they were by others. Additionally, it would be more likely that they would be able to marry and be economically and culturally successful. --Jessica Kilday<br />
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I also thought the reading about the female seminary for the Cherokee girls was very interesting. It seems odd to me that there was such an emphasis placed on the percentage of cherokee vs white blood you had. It was an Indian school but it seems that to be accepted or what the girls felt was preferred was to be as "white" as possible, but yet they still talked about the percent, however small, of Cherokee blood they had. Most of the girls in the pictures to me did not "look" like a typical Cherokee and if the emphasis was on being as "white" as possible why did they even attend the seminary, why not go to a white school. Were they that segregated that even a small amount of Cherokee blood would prevent them from going to a white school, and who would know if you didn't say anything about what percent white you were? ~~Mary Beth C<br />
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While reading "Gender, Race, and Culture: Spanish Mexican Women in the Historiography of Frontier California" and "Women of Color and the Rewriting of Western History" by Antonia I. Castaneda, I wondered whether it were true that only Westerners studied the history of Hispanic women until the 1970s or 1980s. --Justin Mattos<br />
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After reading "The Life and Legend of Gertrudis Barcelo in Nineteenth-Century Santa Fe" by Deena J. Gonzalez, I found it interesting that during that time it was so easy to step outside the boundaries of the perceptions of the general populace. The case of interesting women like Barcelo is very similar to the inability of the Native Americans to see the ships of Cortez until Cortez's men pointed them out to them.--Justin Mattos<br />
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It is strange that in the "Bills of Sale of Chinese Prostitutes, 1875-1876" "stone-woman" was considered a problem/disease. From what I understand, having sex through prostitution is not an enjoyable experience.--Justin Mattos<br />
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My favorite reading out of all of these essays was "To Dark to Be Angels" by Devon Mihesuah, because my great grandmother was apparently 1/4 cherokee, so it was like reading apart of her history. But what I found so interesting about this essay was how these cherokee women were trying to live up to a white persons society, or "adapting to society's 'whiteness'."(187) For so many years the European society in America had tried to civilize Indians, and get them out of farming and hunting, and in this reading it was like they gave up their fight of keeping their heritage and decided to try and fit in to white society. Why? There was all of the sudden the whiter you looked the better off you were, and this often left the full blooded cherokee women feeling inferior to white yet still.<br />
--Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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Deena Gonzalez's essay on Gertrudis Barcelo describes a very interesting women. She basically went against what all the other women in society were expected to be like. She was rich and most interesting was that she made her saloon the center of the town's social and economic life, as well as military and political people coming to her for advise (255). Wasn't that unheard of in those days? How was it that she was able to lead this life and other women didn't, or did they try? --Michelle Marduesz<br />
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Castaneda's article caused me to think on how the problem with the history of CA and its residents before Anglos is a problem with many areas. What I mean by that is a history that does integrate race, gender, and culture or class as categories of historical analysis (page 71) is a problem are for many places. It just really strikes a bit harder when you read a little of the historiography on some of the problems of the already published and out there history. -- Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I was impressed and slightly confused on the essay by Mihesuah about the female Cherokee seminary. I was impressed because even though the school burned down they rebuilt it and it still exists (at least the ending made it sound that way). I was confused because if the whiter you were the better, why did full-blooded traditionalist Cherokees send their daughters there? Were they trying to get an upperhand on the white man? Even if it meant learning to write and read the language in order to better fight the white man? It had me confused. Also, if it was a Cherokee school, why girls go who were barely even Cherokee?, like the one mentioned on page 186 who was only 1/32 Cherokee. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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The essay "Too Dark to be Angels" concludes by stating that the seminary was a progressive success. I can not help but question this outcome based on what I read. I have no doubts that the seminary provided short term advantages to its attendees as it related to social and economic status however, it appears also that the women let petty matters of snobbery and ego undermine the overall mission of the seminary (which I imagine was to uplift the Cherokee nation through education). It seems that by attending this seminary Cherokees were destroying themselves from the inside out. The women learned to feel either superior or inferior and therefore they could not remain united as an ethnic group. Also, the fact that whites were put on such a high pedestal made the Cherokees vulnerable to manipulation in the future. - Landon Davis<br />
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Bancroft's qoute "a race halfway between the proud Castillian and the lowly root digger." existing "halfway between savage and civilization." on page 59 of Casteneda's essay is reprehensible. It caused me to quesiton the root cause of such racism, and prejudice. What makes someone racist? Is it truly just because the other person looks different? Is it about pre-conceived notions or hearsay, turned hateful stereotypes? Could it be a morally corrupt individual looking for a way to dehumanize a group, in order to justify poor treatment (i.e. stealing Indian land or slavery)? It seems there has to be some underlying motive for racism, besides just the color of one's skin vs. antohers'. - Landon Davis<br />
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After doing the readings, "A Citizen Protests the Rape of Indian Women in California, 1862" attracted my attention the most, and I struggled to figure out why. I think this document raises a lot of questions about gender norms during the time period, in a substantially different way than the other documents in Major Problems. It's clear from the other readings that rape and domination of Native Americans was not uncommon. "A Citizen Protests" raises the questions about the response to these acts by average citizens. The author of the letter labels the rapists brutes, who should be punished "in justice to decency, humanity, and civilization." However, its clear the author's morals aren't widely shared, why else would his or her letter to the editor be anonymous? ~ Matt Struth<br />
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I agree with Kelly and her thoughts on the Castaneda piece and how it described the classification between "Spanish" and "Mexican" and how the distinction seems to still be true, on a certain level, today. It is pointed out that Spanish women were always purer held higher up in societies eyes. The Mexican women on the other hand were impure in every way. Basically no matter how corny this sounds, Spanish women are classy and Mexican women are trashy. This is still seen today, even in my mind sometimes you think of Mexican you think lower class. However, when you think Spanish, you see a women wearing bright colors beautiful clothes.I wonder do we think this way because Spain is located in Europe and when Eurpoe comes to mind you think of places like Milan or Paris? --Amanda Taub<br />
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I had the same questions about the essay by Mihesuah about the female Cherokee seminary as Ashley. What I didn't understand was why whiter was better? I found it interesting that full-blood Cherokees were sending their children to this extremely expensive school to become whiter. Is it to try to become equals with white people or is it to pull ahead of them? What I really don't understand is why are the Cherokees trying to wipe out their culture. That is what happened when we first settled the Indians became "whiter" and look at where they are now, language has been lost, traditions stories the list goes on. To me it seems like this school was good for the purpose of education but I felt as if it took away culture. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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I think that Antonia Castaneda's essay makes some far-reaching claims that are not completely warranted. Castaneda credits the biased work of Bancroft with informing all later popular and scholarly works with specific stereotypes of Spanish women (pg 59). While perhaps not central to Castaneda's essay I don't understand how one, or even a few historical scholars could be solely responsible for passing on biased perceptions. I think Castaneda ignores other ways that negative stereotypes get passed on. The fact that these negative stereotypes persist in persons who are not scholars of history indicates that later scholars might not have adopted the same stereotypes that Bancroft did solely because he did, but because they embraced these stereotypes in their daily lives. ~ Matt Struth<br />
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I found the documents about women in the Trans-Mississippi Frontier West incredibly interesting and shocking at the same time. The Bills of Sale of Chinese Prostitutes were the most shocking of the collection. Was this a common phenomenon at this time? --Angela Scott<br />
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I agree with Amanda's points about the female Cherokee seminary. I feel that the Cherokees were attending this school in hopes of becoming 'whiter', which did result in a dilution of their culture. One must wonder if they saw this as a negative thing, however. They saw that whites had the money, the land, and the privilege. Is it possible that they willingly sacrificed their unique culture in hopes of attaining these things that whites had and they did not? --Angela Scott<br />
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I think Matt brings up an interesting point about "A Citizen Protests the Rape of Indian Women in California, 1862," in mentioning that the letter was anonymous. To our minds, the opinions shared seem to be the norm, but the simple fact that the writer of this letter felt the need to keep their opinions anonymous definitely demonstrates that these opinions were not the norm. This reflects a sad fact of race and gender norms of the time. --Angela Scott<br />
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As I was reading "Zitkala-Sa Travels to the Land of the Big Red Apples," a few things really struck me. First, I was amazed by the conflict between the young girl and her mother and that the young girl wanted to leave her family. I was also amazed that it was ultimately the mother's decision whether or not to send the young girl away, and in fact the father was not mentioned at all. I think that this highlights a cultural difference between the Dakotas and the white Americans. --Katie Nelson<br />
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I thought that an important and likely common racial and gender issue was highlighted in "Violet Cragg, Ex-Slave and Former Army Nurse, Requests an Army Pension, 1908." She mentioned that the father of her daughter was a white man. Sadly, I think that this was all too common, and denotes how white men took advantage of enslaved women. --Katie Nelson<br />
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Mihesuah's piece about the diluded culture of the Cherokee women shows the power of the white, middle classed ideal. I thought the school's class system was very interesting and exposed how strong the force to wipe out Native American presence really was. I felt as if the Cherokee culture was breeded out with each new generation of students striving for white ideals. I wondered if perhaps within my own Eastern European ancestory a similiar process of acculturation took place. For now although I consider myself American I still have a sense of Polish pride, but after reading about the Cherokee seminary perhaps my ancestors strove to break apart from their cultural ties? -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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I found the article "Bills of Sale of Chinese Prostitutes" to be extremely disturbing. As if it weren't bad enough to be sold to someone for my body the rules were absurd. I'm not sure which one was worse "if she concieves, she shall serve one year more" or "if she should escape and be recovered, then her time shall never expire." Who came up with these ideas and rules and how is this accepted in any society?? - Rose Ferguson<br />
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Growing up we've all been exposed to different stereotypes of various classifications of individuals. After doing the readings this week, it makes me question what did other races and genders think of whites? what were white femailes stereotyped as and has it changed throughout the years? It the perception change depending on who you talk to and do different backgrounds have varying perceptions? I'm curious as to how the "typical" white woman was portrayed. - Rose Ferguson<br />
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While reading Castaneda's article in the section "The Spanish Borderlands School" it became clear that the mention of Spanish Mexican women from Bolton and previous historians was often very political. Their place revolved around the rivalary of Mexican and Euro-American males. They were only significant when their lives involved or revolved around men. From a romanticized stereotype of Spanish women came the notion that they preferred white men. Realistically Americans wanted to hear of their superiority over Mexicans. Their role was to be an American conquest resulting in dominance over Mexican males. This proves Castandeda's point that the history of women needs to be reexamined under a lens unbiased by "Anglo North American(s)". -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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I agree with Rose about the documents of Chinese prostitutes. I could not believe that women actually agreed to those rules such as if she is sick for fifteen days then she will serve another month or if she conceives then she will serve another year. The money they received must have been a good enough amount for them, but is it really worth it to lose your life by selling your body to someone? -Ashley Scutari<br />
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When reading Castaneda's article I couldn't help but think how we do romanticize the Spanish American women of the western frontier. Presented in movies and books, the Spanish woman in America has developed this myth of beauty and grace in the California frontier. On the other hand, the Mexican American woman is thought of as dirty and poor, perhaps a prostitute. Again there are modern images in movies and popular culture referencing that stereotyped past. When I was reading the article, the stereotypes of a romantic Spanish woman against the beggar-like figure of a Mexican woman from the western frontier were at the forefront of my thoughts. Like last week's articles, Castaneda's article shows how important it is to analyze all facets of women's history regardless of race. It also made me think how difficult it must be for historians to separate fact from fiction especially with these images of the old West still around today. -Kendall Haring<br />
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In response to Kelly W's question regarding the two ethnicities, I believe that it does exist. I had the opportunity to visit Mexico a number of years ago and was surprised to hear the derogatory comments made by the Mexican workers in regard to the tourists from South America, which they referred to as "Spanish". There seems to be a perception or attitude within the hispanic (or Latino) community; namely, "Spanish" descent ranks high, Mexican follows, and then the Mayans. This order in hierarchy is not that much different from the one that existed in colonial Mexico and Middle America, which placed Spaniards on top, then Spanish born in Mexico, Mestizos (Spanish/native females), Indians, then Blacks.-LisaM</div>Lmeissnerhttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_2_Questions/Comments328--Week 2 Questions/Comments2008-01-24T11:57:58Z<p>Lmeissner: </p>
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<div>I found it interesting that the concept of a separation between freedom and suffrage that existed during the Post-Civil War period is very well upheld assumption today. --Justin Mattos<br />
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The gradual disenfranchisement and barring from political participation of black women seems to be an interesting example of white society's influence on black culture. --Justin Mattos<br />
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What were the similarities between the political participation of black women and political participation of the women of immigrant groups and other minorities? --Justin Mattos<br />
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I thought it was very interesting in the reading where the author discussed the concept of family being the "unifying thread" that bound African Americans together. She says that "the notion of family members as having a mutual and continuing responsibility to help each other and to prepare for hard times" (pg 125). Wouldn't that have been true of any family during the reconstruction period, black or white? ~~Mary Beth C<br />
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I agree with Justin that it is interesting to see how the African American women were gradually pushed out of the political arena after having been so active and vocal. I think it is funny how the women would "take sactions" (pg 135),such as abstaining from sexual relations, against men that voted for the Democratic party! ~~ Mary Beth C<br />
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The concept that I found most intriguing overall in the reading was the conflicting views of freedom and suffrage being an individual possession versus communal. This led to the different treatment of people who voted against the popular view. To someone who thought individuals were responsible to only themselves they would view hostility against other voters as opposing the libreal democratic process whereas in the African American community, where suffrage was viewed as a collective possesion, it was right to be hostile towards those who threatened the well being of the whole community. -Karly Kovalcik<br />
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Although the difference may be slight on paper, there is a huge difference between the African American woman's perspective that her husband votes for her in a way that represents her political beliefs and ideologies versus a white woman's perspective that her husband voted for her without consulting with her because he acted individually in a way that was best for his wife and children. -Karly Kovalcik<br />
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After reading the article I made a decision that I had previously I had been flip-flopping between. I now believe that there needs to be subcategories of the women's history to include at least, but not limiting to, African American Women's history. The history seems to be so different just from the article we had to read. Such as, the black women feeling that they were equally part of the vote that the black men casted. I don't remember ever hearing about that before, at least with white women, but then again I haven't taken a women's history course before either -- Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I agree completely with Ashley. After reading this article, it has become clear to me that women's history needs definite subcategories. But that just makes me thing about how many subcategories can we really delve into? I mean, if you think of how many different subject classes are offered to us within our history department, all of which normally pertain to "men's history," do we need all of those categories for women's history as well? - Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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The other thing I found interesting in the article by Elsa Brown was just how the women and men viewed the 'sense of the vote' at first. Such as the vote casted by the men was equally the women's vote, and how the black republican politicians were able to get (well, it seems like the article was meaning quite a few) many of the black women to reject black male democratic voters. Also, just the fact the black women to fight to even get to vote in Richmond's First African Baptist Church astounded me with the way the article was talking about community earlier on. It definitely feels like slowly, but surely, the women were losing the political say they had through their men. -- Ashley Wilkins<br />
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In chapter 8, Brown gives examples of the freed African American trying to regain the importance of ''the family''. The church was impacted by the new seating integration, families lived together in support, and even none relatives were taken into homes that had room in racial solidarity. Single and widowed women lived together, sharing incomes and responsibility over child care. In a way, black women were improving and strengthening the idea of ''the family'' that white society held such virtue in. By living as sisters with none relatives, but former "fellow servants", African American women created an even stronger sense of female solidarity and sisterhood than white women. While many white women of the time looked down on excessive charity (even to single women with children), black women were united. I believe the lacking sense of sisterhood among all white women and failure to unite with African American women hurt them in the struggle for suffrage.--Jackie Reed<br />
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The experience of slavery created a need to embrace other African Americans, so it is not surprising that they reached out to the community of African Americans during the Reconstruction Era and beyond. It was family and a sense of community that held African Americans together. "Whether one eats or starves in this setting depends on the available resources within the community as a whole."(126) This essay reminded me of a conversation that I had with a senior African American woman in Georgia, who told me that during the violence of the 1950s communities of African Americans posted neighborhood watches. According to the story, white males, sometimes intoxicated, would drive through black communities seeking victims. The men took on the responsibility of protecting the citizens within the community. This women said that they seldom left the neighborhood due to potential violence, and there was no need to because school, church, and markets were all within the perimeter of the black community.--LisaM<br />
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The concept that the freedom and political liberty of U.S. citizens was not synonymous (130) seems a blatent contradition to present day eyes. As we all know, the black codes in the Reconstruction Era disenfranchised large populations of blacks. Brown's essay states that black women felt they had a stake in the man's choice in voting. I recall in Georgia history, the sizeable female black population was considered a threat if allowed to vote; black women were inclined to vote Republican, and the white population of the South were Democrats. In some cases, women's politics played out in the form of organizations that opposed women's suffrage; they felt that women's suffrage undermined white supremacy.--LisaM<br />
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I agree with Karly about how there is a huge difference between the African American woman's perspective that her husband votes for her representing her political beliefs and to a white woman's perspective that the husband voted for her without consulting with her. That he voted for who he though was best for him and his wife and children. I think it shows that even though all men are superior when it comes to women, African American men have more respect to their wives then a white man does to his. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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Something that I found interesting in the reading was when it discussed how blacks were active participants throughout the state constitutional convention. African Americans both male and female crowded the galleries speaking their opinions letting their voices be heard. It says " White women, for example, certainly on occasion sat in the convention's gallery as visitors silently observing the proceedings..."(pg129). African American women were standing besides the men that "represented" them and took part in trying to make changes, while the white women sat there quietly letting their men make decisions for them. I just find this funny because you would think a white women would have a little more part in politics; but I guess an African American woman didn't have much to loose if she spoke out of turn or defended her own ideas. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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I thought it was interesting that Brown discussed the varying ways to interpret the word “freedom.” For black women, freedom was the ability to remain close to the community and help the family. She stated that for black women, “the charity of this penniless negress in receiving another poverty-stricken creature under her roof was characteristic of the freedmen” (p. 126). On the other hand, from the perspective of white men and women, freedom was the ability to get ahead and better oneself. For example, Brown states, “freedpeople should adopt naturally those habits of thrift, diligence, and acquisitiveness that were a cornerstone of free labor ideology” (p.127). This highlights an important difference in perspective. --Jessica Kilday<br />
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Brown talks a lot about the difference between freedom and political liberty. There was debate on whether or not civil right should be an “inherent corollary to freedom.” She mentions the views of Gibson when discussing this point, in which he suggests, “persons who had not yet learned to regulate their lives appropriately—to be thrifty, industrious, and diligent—were not yet capable of responsibly exercising liberty. Those not capable of political liberty would rely on those capable of it to protect their freedom” (p 130). In the time following the civil war, women did not have the right to vote, given this statement, is it because society did not view them as “capable of the responsibility?” Moreover, is this, to some extent true today, with the definition of “capable”, not applying to gender, but to age? --Jessica Kilday<br />
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In Browns essay I thought it was interesting on page 129 that during debates white women were silent and the African Americans were not. Instead they participated and loudly; however Brown doesn't say whether the African Amercians were men or women or both. Why were the white women silent? <br />
Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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What was also intersting to me in Browns essay was that Southern Black women and men debated the issue of woman suffrage (131). I assume this is because Black men were in the same boat as women in general because they didn't have much rights either so they understood the frustration of not having certain rights and in this case the right to vote. <br />
Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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In response to your assumption Michelle, I'm going to agree somewhat, and say that black men also debated the issue of women's suffrage, because they too had to struggle to have a political voice. They had a difficult time obtaining the right to vote themselves, so they also had to persuade women to help them and back them up while trying to get a shot at the vote. This, of course, led to a massive debate over whether or not black men or women as a gender should be granted the right to vote first, and caused quite a stir when it was granted to men. There were quite a few men, though, like Frederick Douglass I believe, who supported the woman's right to vote. They understood what it was like to be considered politically naive, so I'm sure that helped in some way. - Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I found it interesting that during the Reconstruction Era while men and women who had been slaves focused on finding the families that they had been separated from the white society surrounding these families found something wrong with the fact the black community latched onto the families they had around them. It seemed odd that they would have such a negative view on the fact that these people had such a strong desire to help out family members or even simply other people who experienced the difficulties of slavery with them. I would have thought that this would have been something that would have been admired instead of mocked. They were helping others out which was something that I had understood was the duty of any Christian, especially during this time period where the majority of the nation was Christian. Was it simply because they were a different skin color than them? Or was it because many white people during this period were so focused on improving their lot in life that they couldn't have cared less about how the others were doing? - Elizabeth Frank<br />
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I enjoyed reading how although the black women in communities were denied the right to actually cast a vote in elections they still made their political opinions known. I especially enjoyed reading that these women would threaten their husbands in order to insure they voted in a way that represented not only his opinions but also hers as well! - Elizabeth Frank<br />
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What I found interesting in Brown's essay was that while African Americans were TECHNICALLY exteneded all the freedoms and liberties afforded the white male populous, there were still social norms and restraints (that were more powerful than any amendment) that constrained their freedoms. These could be seen explicitly in the south, and more subtly in the North but they definetly existed. However, even in the time of Jim Crow laws, and a time when women (white or black) still could not vote, in the African American community black women had real power. On page 130 Brown talks about how black culture had both an internal and external political structure. In the internal structure black women had just as much power as the men. So why was this not the case with the white culture of the day? Did the conditions within slavery equalize black men and women, is this something that carried over from their culture in Africa, or were black women simply more strong willed and outspoken? - Landon Davis<br />
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Another point worth discussing from the reading was the incredibly gernerous and nuclear support system African Americans set up during reconstruction. Brown talks about how the ex-slaves would depend on one another, for food, shelter, and money. Sometimes they would even go so far as to share bank accounts. Although I admire their genorosity and envy their sense of community, I have to wonder if African American Society as a whole in the long run would not have been better off if the individuals would have put their extra money to a productive use for themselves individually, rather than dontating it to the poor. If families with extra money(time or space)would have invested this money - in businesses, or in education for their offspring the African American community may ascended to equality alot sooner than they did(assuming they have). - Landon Davis<br />
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The white characterization of newly freed blacks as "lazy and shiftless" because of their sense of collective responsibility was simply ignorance of their own history. During the Revolutionary Period and Founding, it was not uncommon for people to quarter soldiers and economically help one another due to oppression from their common foe - the British. The individualistic and free labor ideology in white America really took hold with the opening of the frontier. As an oppressed people, it was only natural that the black community would bond in such a way in the face of the oppression and discrimination which they would continue to face for another 100+ years. Phil N.<br />
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Another note from late 18th, early 19th century: As far as whites had been concerned at first, only the middle and upper classes of white males had access to the ballot box. Freedom and suffrage were not linked until this time, starting with the Jacksonian period. Before that, almost 200 years had elapsed in which the franchise being the domain of the upper classes was never seriously challenged. - Phil N.<br />
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I think Brown's piece brings to light a clear division between Black and White women in this time period: active vs. passive. Black women were just as active in their communities as Black men were. Their work was respected and acknowledged in the community while White women were conforming to a societal ideal that discouraged the "work" that was alongside men. After the civil war there was a window for African Americans to actively shape their own place in American society and the women were a very strong force in that. I wondered while reading if this difference of racial culture from the post-civil war period is infiltrated into American culture today? -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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I agree with Amanda on how African American men treated their wives more respectively with voting than white men did. African American men consulted with their wives about who was best for the position for them and their children. White men just voted for whom they believed was best for the position without talking to their wives. Could the reason for this be because African Americans were treated unequally or naturally they just had more respect for their wives? –Ashley Scutari<br />
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What I also found interesting was how black Republican politicians in the south “took women’s participation seriously and publicly encouraged them to abstain from sexual relations with any man who voted Democratic.” I think that is getting too much into the personal life. Some women actually left their husbands or broke off the wedding until the election was over. Black Republican politicians in a way could brain-wash these women in the South. Could this be because the politicians are encouraging women to participate and are showing acknowledgment towards them? –Ashley Scutari<br />
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Reading this article just emphasizes how much more of a struggle African American women had, especially in the political realm. Some historians tend to forget that black women had to struggle because not only were they of another race, but they were also of the "weaker" gender. So reading about how much they actually did, and how active they were in politics, it shows just how impressive and how determined they were to make a stand and get something accomplished. Granted, things didn't happen overnight, but for those women who actively participated in making a voice for themselves they showed just how much some women really wanted to be able to have a say. I think that makes sense. If it doesn't, ask me in class. - Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I found it interesting the different ways that women found to become involved in politics before they had the right to vote. It seems as though women became truly invested in their husband's political stance and tried to influence him. It seems much more as though the men had to think of the group when they cast their vote, rather than simply voting for themselves. It's almost as though the women held the men accountable for their votes. --Katie Nelson<br />
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I noticed that a sense of community seemed to be an important factor in discussing southern black women's political history. Community seems to be incredibly important to southern black women during this time. It is interesting to think of the many different communities to which they likely belonged, and the influence that they had on each of these communities. --Katie Nelson<br />
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I found it very interesting that freed slaves were NOT most enthused about the possibility to work for pay, but rather what meant more to them was mobility... and therefore to pursue the enjoyment of life by minimizing the "time spent at work." - Cat<br />
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One thing this reading definitely highlights is that historians must be very vigilant about the reflection of their own social assumptions and political expectations in their work. - Cat<br />
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I was surprised the author said women were "encouraged" to withhold sex and marriage in an effort to get their husbands to vote Republican. Who was encouraging them? I thought this type of female power wielding was looked down upon by society. - Cat<br />
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As I was reading about the Black community and it's power over the individual I began thinking about collective women. Will it ever be possible to unite American women politically in a fashion similar to the Black community so that by voting the "wrong" way it would be a disgrace towards women of all races? That the Black community understood that "the issue...was not autonomy but responsibility" (136) played such a strong role in shaping the Reconstruction era. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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I may have missed it, but what were the views of the Democrats? Why were women so opposed to Democrats? Women were carrying weapons and withholding sex, and men feared them. One Woman said that “If a colored man votes the Democratic ticket he has sold himself”. I am interested to know what exactly the Democratic views were and why women were so disturbed with them. Was it just colored women or were white women opposed to the Democrats as well? <br />
Women have not always been able to vote, however we see in Brown’s essay that they make there feelings heard and well known.—Nikole Wellman <br />
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Beverly Nash was a state senator in 1872 and proposed a woman’s suffrage amendment to the state constitution. Women were not allowed to vote yet but they are holding a political office. How is this so? --Nikole Wellman<br />
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What is a Whipper?—Nikole Wellman<br />
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I found the quote "Their fates were intimately tied together; individual freedom could be achieved only through collective autonomy" to be very frustrating. Not only is it bad enough a woman is considered a salve but in order for her to gain freedom everyone else must be freed as well. I can't even comprehend what that have been like. We're thankful to have atleast some individualism in society today. --- Rose Ferguson<br />
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I found it quite ironic to read about Elizabeth Botume and Beaufort South Carolina which is where I'm from and my parents currently live. If you told me today that in the 2008 presidential election I could not vote due to my gender I'd most likely laugh and then scream in your face. --- Rose Ferguson<br />
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I like that how even though women were not allowed to vote they still had a great influence over who won the elections. The power that they seemed to have over their husbands in certain areas was impressive. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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I thought that it was interesting that the girls of Cherokee Female Seminary all identified themselves as Cherokee eventhough they had different social, economic and ancestral backgrounds, even with identifying the same they still created a class system from economic status. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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I was really intrigued by the discussion of how those in power expected the free blacks to remain in one place and be a stable working force, but blacks worked against this by moving in order to be in places that they wanted to be or in order to be closer to their families. In African American history, we learned that movement was one thing that was really valued by slaves, and often used as a form of resistance. I wonder if the reason they moved around so much was that it was the only way they could truly feel free. --Angela Scott<br />
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I agree with Kellye about the influential power of women. I feel that this is a power that women have wielded throughout the ages. One can see the influence that mistresses had over powerful kings in history, and even in our own history, you can see it in Abigail Adam's correspondence with her husband while he was at the constitutional convention. --Angela Scott<br />
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I think that the reason that so many politicians were encouraging women to withhold sex from their husbands because they realized that it would be quite an effective way to make husbands pay attention and change their votes. --Angela Scott<br />
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I wonder what or if the future of African Americans would've been different if the newly freed slaves had not been so mobile and settled down and fit into the white capitalistic model of earninig the highest wage possible. - Emely A.<br />
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I found the quotation of Congressman Bayne very interesting. It did not initially sit well with me. I first felt that his view on women was just as misogynistic-ally characteristic of the time. But after a closer look, I agree with Brown, who says that it is impossible to know Bayne's true meaning/intent when talking about women's "right to stay home". But perhaps he was purposely fighting for a middle ground in order to help out women, and especially black women. By using this terminology, it could have been possible for him to trick or sway some narrow-minded white congressmen into the belief that women also share the inherent right of suffrage. --Jackie Reed<br />
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I liked how at the beginning of her essay, Brown described the African American community as having a mutual responsibility to look out for one another, and this idea extended past just blood relatives. Everyone in the black community considered themselves brothers and sisters, and they knew that in order to overcome the many challenges they faced during and after Reconstruction, they must do so as a united community and not as individuals. -Marilyn<br />
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Before reading Brown's essay, I didn't realize that African American women were as involved in politics as they were. Brown talks about the "internal political arena" that black women participated in by attending public forums, parades, rallies, and conventions. Brown states that, "African American women and men understood the vote to be a collective possession, not an individual one, and furthermore that African American women...viewed African American men's vote as equally theirs." (135) Like others have already said, it surprises me that African American men considered their wives' opinions concerning politics and voting. -Marilyn</div>Lmeissnerhttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_2_Questions/Comments328--Week 2 Questions/Comments2008-01-22T13:09:07Z<p>Lmeissner: </p>
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<div>I found it interesting that the concept of a separation between freedom and suffrage that existed during the Post-Civil War period is very well upheld assumption today. --Justin Mattos<br />
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The gradual disenfranchisement and barring from political participation of black women seems to be an interesting example of white society's influence on black culture. --Justin Mattos<br />
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What were the similarities between the political participation of black women and political participation of the women of immigrant groups and other minorities? --Justin Mattos<br />
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I thought it was very interesting in the reading where the author discussed the concept of family being the "unifying thread" that bound African Americans together. She says that "the notion of family members as having a mutual and continuing responsibility to help each other and to prepare for hard times" (pg 125). Wouldn't that have been true of any family during the reconstruction period, black or white? ~~Mary Beth C<br />
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I agree with Justin that it is interesting to see how the African American women were gradually pushed out of the political arena after having been so active and vocal. I think it is funny how the women would "take sactions" (pg 135),such as abstaining from sexual relations, against men that voted for the Democratic party! ~~ Mary Beth C<br />
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The concept that I found most intriguing overall in the reading was the conflicting views of freedom and suffrage being an individual possession versus communal. This led to the different treatment of people who voted against the popular view. To someone who thought individuals were responsible to only themselves they would view hostility against other voters as opposing the libreal democratic process whereas in the African American community, where suffrage was viewed as a collective possesion, it was right to be hostile towards those who threatened the well being of the whole community. -Karly Kovalcik<br />
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Although the difference may be slight on paper, there is a huge difference between the African American woman's perspective that her husband votes for her in a way that represents her political beliefs and ideologies versus a white woman's perspective that her husband voted for her without consulting with her because he acted individually in a way that was best for his wife and children. -Karly Kovalcik<br />
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After reading the article I made a decision that I had previously I had been flip-flopping between. I now believe that there needs to be subcategories of the women's history to include at least, but not limiting to, African American Women's history. The history seems to be so different just from the article we had to read. Such as, the black women feeling that they were equally part of the vote that the black men casted. I don't remember ever hearing about that before, at least with white women, but then again I haven't taken a women's history course before either -- Ashley Wilkins<br />
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The other thing I found interesting in the article by Elsa Brown was just how the women and men viewed the 'sense of the vote' at first. Such as the vote casted by the men was equally the women's vote, and how the black republican politicians were able to get (well, it seems like the article was meaning quite a few) many of the black women to reject black male democratic voters. Also, just the fact the black women to fight to even get to vote in Richmond's First African Baptist Church astounded me with the way the article was talking about community earlier on. It definitely feels like slowly, but surely, the women were losing the political say they had through their men. -- Ashley Wilkins<br />
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In chapter 8, Brown gives examples of the freed African American trying to regain the importance of ''the family''. The church was impacted by the new seating integration, families lived together in support, and even none relatives were taken into homes that had room in racial solidarity. Single and widowed women lived together, sharing incomes and responsibility over child care. In a way, black women were improving and strengthening the idea of ''the family'' that white society held such virtue in. By living as sisters with none relatives, but former "fellow servants", African American women created an even stronger sense of female solidarity and sisterhood than white women. While many white women of the time looked down on excessive charity (even to single women with children), black women were united. I believe the lacking sense of sisterhood among all white women and failure to unite with African American women hurt them in the struggle for suffrage.--Jackie Reed<br />
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The experience of slavery created a need to embrace other African Americans, so it is not surprising that they reached out to the community of African Americans during the Reconstruction Era and beyond. It was family and a sense of community that held African Americans together. "Whether one eats or starves in this setting depends on the available resources within the community as a whole."(126) This essay reminded me of a conversation that I had with a senior African American woman in Georgia, who told me that during the violence of the 1950s communities of African Americans posted neighborhood watches. According to the story, white males, sometimes intoxicated, would drive through black communities seeking victims. The men took on the responsibility of protecting the citizens within the community. This women said that they seldom left the neighborhood due to potential violence, and there was no need to because school, church, and markets were all within the perimeter of the black community.--LisaM<br />
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The concept that the freedom and political liberty of U.S. citizens was not synonymous (130) seems a blatent contradition to present day eyes. As we all know, the black codes in the Reconstruction Era disenfranchised large populations of blacks. Brown's essay states that black women felt they had a stake in the man's choice in voting. I recall in Georgia history, the sizeable female black population was considered a threat if allowed to vote; black women were inclined to vote Republican, and the South were Democrats.--LisaM</div>Lmeissnerhttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_1_Questions/Comments328--Week 1 Questions/Comments2008-01-17T12:59:15Z<p>Lmeissner: </p>
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<div>This is not a real post.<br />
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I agree.<br />
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You're both wrong. -- Sarah H.<br />
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I found it extremely interesting in "Challenging Dichotomies in Women's History" that fatherhood was not seen as a natural thing but instead was viewed as being "social". Yet for women being a mother was a "natural" phenomenon. I would have thought that it would have also been seen as natural for the man to also assume a fatherly role despite his involvement in the public sphere. Is this because the men were already doing so much that being a fatherly figure just couldn't always be an important role? Or is it because if they were expected to show a more emotional side of them they would be considered less of a man because they wouldn't be acting tough? - Elizabeth L. Frank<br />
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I was surprised to read in "Rethinking the Position of Black Women in American Women's History" that some Black Women scholars feel that even today the importance of black women and their roles in society are being overlooked in the fields of women's studies! I understood that it took a little while for scholars to realize that they had to look at the difference ethnicities differently as far as their experiences in society but I had no idea that there were aspects that were still being overlooked. I also liked the statement Leslie Alexander made in the first sentence of the last paragraph of the essay that in order to truly understand the experiences of women that scholars must become willing to explore the differences of the cultures instead of simply ignoring the fact that they are different. I thought that was a very good point. - Elizabeth L. Frank<br />
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The theme of the four essays is to tackle the question, what is the meaning and importance in studying women’s history? In the first essay, Haulman points out that the study of women’s history has changed over time. It first focused on the measurable contributions of women to American society and then shifted to focus more on the private lives of women in their home life. -- Jessica Kilday<br />
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It is interesting to note in the second essay that Bock brings up many different theories with which to compare the role of men and women in society. When examining the dichotomies suggested it is interesting to consider not only how women have affected society but also how the norms of society influenced the role of women. -- Jessica Kilday<br />
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More than one of the essays point out that many subjects in American women’s history has been concentrated on white middle class women. It is important to look at the role of culture and ethnicity in women’s studies because all of these factors affect the experiences and challenges of women in society. The study of women is not static; it is changing, and shaped by many different factors, and it is important to consider more than one. -- Jessica Kilday<br />
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In the essay "Women of Color and the Rewriting of Western History," I found it interesting that the women's liberation movement in the United States was mainly about gender oppression. The movements were middle class white women who wrote about the history of white women in the West. Though, women of color looked towards third-world liberation movements for support instead of women's liberation movements. Only if women of all different ethnicities joined together earlier would women's rights have developed earlier? Also women of color's gender oppression was different than white women's gender oppression in that colored women had to struggle with race and class unlike white women who mostly struggled with class. --Ashley Scutari<br />
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In the essay "Challenging Dichotomies in Women's History," I found it interesting in the first point Nature vs. Culture that fatherhood was not seen as natural but social. Women scholars challenged this by stating that women are therefore seen as "nature always having a social meaning" and nature and culture mean different things in different times. Women are the ones that physically have the baby, but that does not mean they have to be subject to the male sexes. Men are also taught to grow up as a strong non-emotional person. This could also be why fatherhood is seen as social instead of natural. <br />
--Ashley Scutari<br />
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In "Challenging Dichotomies in Women's History" Gisela Bock discusses how a woman's nature were child bearing, carring for the family, and taking care of things around the house originated from Europe; but what was once seen as nature is now seen as work. I I find this very true today, because a lot of stay home mothers consider their position as a mother and care taker of the home a job, however without pay as Bock mentions an "unpaid work." (pg 9) Also on the other hand there are many women that work and women for years have competed with the men in their wages but because of their sex and not who does the job best. Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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Leslie M. Alexander's essay mostly discusses black women and how their history is different from that of white womens history, which it is, but in today's society of white and black women are they still that different? Is this generation of black women still largley influenced by past generations in how they view themselves as black women? She also goes on to say that in order to understand black women you have to understand the black community. (pg 21) I think understanding any comminity that in its self is a different culture you have to understand their culture and way of life before understanding that community of people. The United States is full of all kinds of culturally different people. Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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In "Challenging Dichotomies in Women's History" I found the second point, Work v. Family interesting because it looks at "women's work" and how it relates men as the "workers" and women as "non-workers". Women who are are non working mothers are still seen as "non-workers" today. I think that the stay at home mother profession should be given more respect in the professional world. Many stay at home mothers work just as hard if not harder than those in careers outside the home. --Kellye Sorber<br />
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In "Women of Color and the Rewriting of Western History" Castaneda discusses the problems faced by scholers of color in their work to properly show the history of thier ancestors. It was interseting that these scholars struggle to accurately portray these women and not let assumptions get in the way thier research. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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What I found interesting after reading all of the essays is that I still had no idea how historians should study women's history. From what I read I got the feeling that the study of women's history had the same problem as other thematic studies of history: how do you study the history of a single facet of society without studying the history of all of the other facets? --Justin Mattos<br />
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I agree completely with Justin. The editor raises a very valid point in the beginning before we even approach the essays, and that is "how do you study women's history?" After reading all of the essays, it's clear that it is very difficult to lump all of women's history together to study. There are so many different aspects of women's history to take into account that it almost seems impossible to study it all at once without leaving something out. Then again, isn't that what happens with history in general? When we're taught history, ignoring that men are typically the central characters, think of how much is left out so that we can stay on task for a single semester on a topic that could seem quite specific in the first place. -Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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An unfortunate conclusion from "Rethinking the Position of Black Women in American Women's History" was the need for the undermining of an important aspect of the Women's Movement in order for Women's History in order to be properly studied. --Justin Mattos<br />
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After reading "Challenging Dichotomies in Women's History" by Gisela Bock, I realized how much of a connection our society's conception of women has with the writing of its history: how can women's history be properly studied without first changing our perceptions of women? If the study of women's history is part of the changing of our perception of women then should we expect its study to be apolitical? --Justin Mattos<br />
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In Kate Haukman’s essay, she talks about the difficulty of studying women without examining gender history as well. If this is the case, which Bock also believed it is, then how can it be that the study of men’s history seems often less related to gender roles? - Cat Debelius<br />
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In Bock’s essay, I found particularly interesting her comment that in today’s world we still reserve the terms “working women” and “working mother” for employed women only, overlooking, even with our language, the fact that being a mother is work. I guess this just goes to show you how truly slanted society still in is valuing men’s work over women’s. - Cat Debelius<br />
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Castaneda discusses the challenges of studying women of color. When to place a person within historical perspective, is it more important to explore their race or gender first? - Cat Debelius<br />
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In her essay, "Rethinking the Position of Black Women in American Women's History," Leslie Alexander makes a statement near the end saying, "The challenge remains for us to analyze Black women through their own eyes rather than through the lens of whiteness and opression." (p.22). My question, is does anyone think that is truly possible? Most of what scholars have on Black women's history has been recorded by whites, and for a great deal of time, by white men. I believe that now we as historians should be able to look at this history through the eyes of those who experienced it, but a large chunk of this history has been warped and skewed in some way. Does anyone think it's possible to correct that? Or, regardless of the tools and resources we have today, are things always going to be interpreted in a more biased sense than they should be? -Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I found it extremely interesting in "Challenging Dichotomies in Women's History" that motherhood was a natural phenomenon, however fatherhood was not seen as a natural at all. That was seen as social. Yet for women being a mother was a "natural" phenomenon. I have always assumed that fatherhood was a natural phenomenon like motherhood despite their involvement in the social sphere. The child is just as much apart of him as it is the mother. My question is if this is because men were so involved in society there wasn't time? Or was it the fact that he could not show his nurturing/loving side? -- Amanda Taub<br />
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While reading the Dichotomies essay I found it amazing that fatherhood was seen as “social.” I always felt that motherhood and fatherhood were both ‘natural,’ but now I’m not sure. I have a feeling this was not worldwide though, since each culture is different. I’m curious how other cultures viewed mother- and fatherhood. –Ashley W.<br />
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I did not realize until reading these essays just how many problems are in the field of women’s history. From the sounds of the essays there have been problems getting the field established and then getting the field of women’s history to cover all women, regardless of race and class. It sounded like it was getting better, but still has lots of room for improvement. – Ashley W.<br />
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I found Bock's view of the sex and gender dichotomy to be particularly interesting. I never considered that the distincion of sex from gender would restate the nature versus nurture issue. I considered this distinction to be helpful to show that many feminine characteristics should not be considered inherent nor subordinate. Bock argues that these simple definitions only hurt by reinforcing the differences between the sexes and therefore polarizing the study of women. Like other studies of history, the study of women should be a continuous effort without the pause to separate a women's world into what is physiological from what is cultural. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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What I am already finding interesting with the study of women’s history versus other studies of history that I have made is its social and active participation in the present. I feel like the goal in my other history classes has been to recreate a time or event in the past, examine cause and effect, draw similarities, etc. but of things that happened in the past and stay in the past. Whereas so far I feel like women’s study is looking into the past as well but in the attempt to create “a change towards more freedom and justice” (Bock) in the present. -karly kovalcik<br />
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I found Bock’s discussion of equality vs. difference really interesting. She wonders why it is that “difference” is attributed to women and “equality” to men. Which makes me wonder if establishing equality in history is the main goal of women’s history, does making it a “different” field facilitate this or just reinforce dichotomies? When the women suffragists were fighting for the right to vote they weren’t voting for a “woman’s” vote they were just looking for the right to vote. I think there are the same inherent problems that we found with segregation and the “separate but equal” philosophy. -karly kovalcik<br />
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One question posed by Bock's essay that really stood out for me was the use of the words "equality" and "justice" when applied to separate genders. It was interesting that for men, these two words complement each other but for women, they are in opposition. The focus seems to be on their context in comparing history and then gender-focused history. In the traditional sense of history with a "male" focus, equality and justice are words with a positive focus, as words that have translated into positive action. When history is focused on women, equality and justice become negative, words that have been almost unachievable goals in that context. To me, it seems like it comes back to whether we are unwilling to look at history that shows us in an unfavorable light, just like the question with looking at racial minorities' history in America. --Kendall Haring<br />
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I never stopped to consider how feminism and women's history seems so focused on white middle-class women until I read Castaneda and Alexander's essays. There seems to be little representation of minority women when talking about American women's history. It seems like a race issue but is it more the case of white American women keeping minorities and race issues away from feminism or is it, as Alexander claims, that women, especially black women, are less concerned with their gender and more with race issues in history? --Kendall Haring<br />
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I agree with many others who have mentioned that parenthood always seemed as if it should be natural for both parties, however it is seen as natural only for women. How much does this have to do with the unique experience of women in pregnancy? Pregnancy is a natural experience reserved only for women, which might be why women see parenthood as natural. However, for men, they do not get to experience pregnancy, and only bond with the child once it is born. This may help to create the sensation that parenthood is natural for women but not for me. --Angela Scott <br />
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I found the essay "Rethinking the Position of Black Women in American Women's History" by Leslie M. Alexander to be both interesting and thought provoking. At one point Alexander points out that it is important to understand the Black community in order to understand the Black woman. I think that this denotes an importance of understanding culture that can be applied to studying all women. Isn't it important to understand the culture that a person comes from in order to understand the individual itself? All individuals exist within a given culture and are influenced by cultural norms and roles. --Katie Nelson<br />
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In Bock's essay "Challenging Dichotomies in Women's History," I found the discussion of equality v. difference very interesting. How do you decide which is more important equality or difference between the sexes? It seems as though we need to find a happy medium where we can recognize that men and women are different but equal. --Katie Nelson<br />
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I agree with Karly's comment about how our study of women's history might affect the present. In studying women's history, I wonder how prior assumptions and ideas might change in knowing the true facts behind various women's movements. --Angela Scott<br />
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After reading all the essays, I have found that the field of women's history is not nearly as simplistic as I had thought. I never realized all the issues that could arise in the field of women's history, it is so much more than simply the study of women. --Angela Scott<br />
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I thought Alexander's essay concerning race offered an interesting viewpoint. I agree that it is essential to consider race and culture first in order to understand how the concept of gender applies to the lives of African American women. I think this is an important point to keep in mind when evaluating women and the men they interact with throughout this course. Shouldn't the study of women take a multidimensional approach because of the labels other than "woman" that shape what direction their lives will take? -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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I agree with Kate Haulman in the point that studying women gave a new perspective on history. it's history through the eyes of a new group, a group that makes up half (arguably even more) of society. Women have always been there, at home, supproting their husbands and silently witnessing their activities. There is a lot that they have to say that gives us an even greater insight in events that we alread knew about. -Emely Amaya<br />
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I agree with Emely. Women's history is important, because life is not just about the big events, but about about the small, everyday moments that shape a person's life - and so is the way of history. If the study of history was only limited to major military or political victories or losses - and the men that had a part in them - a whole, deeper understanding of a culture would just be lost. Sometimes a look into the basic, ordinary events of life can be the most telling of a civilization, and women have always played a major part in that. ~Juliann<br />
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I found several very interesting points in Haulman's essay. The most interesting and thought provoking for me was when she was discussing the definition of the word woman and female. What I gleaned from her discussion on this topic is that the word woman is constantly changing in meaning, as women socially evolve. For instance she gave the example of a man knitting. She said if a man knits is he really a man, for he has taken on "woman's work". I have always thought of man and woman in a strictly biological sense, so this really made me think.- Landon Davis<br />
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In Bock's essay I thought her section about intergration vs. autonomy was a little off base. If she is using the word autonomous to signify independence, I think that she would seriously be short changing the study of women's history. How could one completely divest women's history from that of mens'? Or mens' history from that of womens? It seems to me that you would need to be familiar with one to fully understand the other. -- Landon Davis<br />
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Kate Haulman's essay argues that the term "woman" is a fluid concept, based on gender, who has defined it as a category, and who has claimed it as an identiy. If that is so, then should transsexuals who believe they are and/or identify themselves as "women" be included in studies of "women's history", even if biologically they have a Y chromosome and not two X chromosomes? Gisela Bock addressed this subject at a glance during her discussion of sex versus gender, but did not really illuminate it. - Sarah H.<br />
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In reference to Antonia I Castaneda writing, Women of Color and the rewriting of Western History, she states two facts that I found interesting. First of all, she states that most feminist scholars write on the history of white women in the west and secondly, that women scholars of color focus on women of third world countries.(p.15) The history of white and colored women has been told by primarily white men, I thought, because there may have not been enough primary sources from women of any color. There was a time when women were not educated and many could not read nor write, therefore not keeping memoirs or journals to tell their stories. For example, the history of women during the Colonial or Antebellum period was most likely taken from the journals of men about what they wrote in regards to women at that time. What, if any, impact did the lack of women’s skills have on the writing of women’s history? Secondly, wouldn’t it be more difficult to find primary sources on women of a third world country rather that women in America. –Nikole Wellman<br />
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In Bock's essay, I found it interesting where the issue of equality vs difference was discussed. The argument that equality and justice go hand in hand for men but not women is really strange to me. I have always thought that women were equal but different so why is it so hard for equality to mean justice for women as well as for men. [[User:MaryBeth|MaryBeth]]<br />
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I thought it was interesting that in the essay by Alexander that she describes how the study of Black women has to include the study of the whole Black community in order to fully understand the role of Black women. Wouldn't that be true for all groups of women though? I think every woman is shaped by the community that they are a part of and in order to fully understand anyone you would need to be able to put them into context, and that includes understanding their roles in their community.<br />
[[User:MaryBeth|MaryBeth]]<br />
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I agree with Mary Beth. Women of all races in the study of history have been underrepresented. But a woman is not just defined exclusively by her gender, but also her race and region. Just because a person is a female, does not mean that she has had the same experiences as all the other women of her time period. Race plays a major role in defining a woman's role in her community. ~Juliann<br />
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I agree with what both MaryBeth and Juliann say about women of all races having been underrepresented in history, particularly American history. But can't this observation also apply to men of every race? Most U.S. history books are overwhelmingly concerned with telling the stories of white men. So, which is the bigger problem - the fact that women as a group are being underrepresented or that men and women of so many different races are underrepresented? -Marilyn<br />
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When Bock discusses the topic of work vs. family, this statement struck me: "Obviously, men's work is valued more highly than women's work." I think this is sad. In today's world, women who have both a job and children are expected to be everything to everyone 24 hours a day. In addition to her responsibilities in the workplace, at home, a woman is the cook, maid, nurse, chauffeur, accountant, etc., and she is always on duty. Yes, the man may have a demanding job outside of the home for which he is paid, but the job of wife and mother is just as difficult (if not more) and should be respected no less. Many women do not have to choose between work and family because they are successful at both. -Marilyn<br />
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It seems clear from these essays that the individual experiences of women are not only shaped by their historical context, but also the intersections between race, class, and cultural identities. These socially constructed categories necessarily complicate the field of women’s history by denying a shared experience of womanhood. When Kate Haulman describes the traditional emphasis on the “normative” experiences of white, middle and upper class women she recognizes that this approach is exclusionary, problematic, and limiting. In order to avoid typifying woman as a singular, unified concept, women’s historians must examine the interplay of race, class, and cultural identities within the category of gender. -- Paul<br />
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The need to address women's history is obviously complicated. You cannot address it merely by placing all women in one category; each race, class and culture dictates a different history. If we address only those women, who are "notable women" or "women worthies" as Haulman mentions, we alienate a large majority of women in the world's population.--LisaM<br />
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The actual language used to depict women vary. The debate between historians on choice of approach and language is interesting. In Bock's essay historian Joan Scott is quoted as asking the question, "Why is it, for instance, that 'equality' and 'justice' seem to complement each other in the case of men, but be opposed to each other in the case of women?" Is this being hypersensitive? Have we, namely women, grown so complacent with our language that we have a tendancy to ignore or dismiss such interpretations of language?--LisaM</div>Lmeissner Deprecated: header(): Passing null to parameter #3 ($response_code) of type int is deprecated in /home/umwhisto/public_html/mcclurken/wiki/includes/WebResponse.php on line 38