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Deprecated: header(): Passing null to parameter #3 ($response_code) of type int is deprecated in /home/umwhisto/public_html/mcclurken/wiki/includes/WebResponse.php on line 38 https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/api.php?action=feedcontributions&feedformat=atom&user=Efran6hiMcClurken Wiki - User contributions [en]2026-09-18T23:04:42ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.22.0https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_14_Questions/Comments328--Week 14 Questions/Comments2008-04-23T20:14:23Z<p>Efran6hi: /* Katie Roiphe, “Date Rape: Hysteria or Epidemic?” – 1991 */</p>
<hr />
<div>MP, 459-469, 506-524<br />
<br />
== Roe v. Wade Decision (both Blackmun’s majority ruling and White’s dissent). ==<br />
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<br />
== Lindsey Van Gelder reports on “Women vs. the NY Times” in Ms. in 1978. ==<br />
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<br />
== Connaught Marshner explains what social conservatives really want, 1988. ==<br />
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<br />
== Planned Parenthood versus Casey, 1992 ==<br />
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== Gloria Anzaldua soeakes about her identity, 1999 ==<br />
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== Asma Gull Hasan, Pakistani-American, 2000 ==<br />
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I learned a lot this week in the reading about "First- and Second- Generation Immigrant Women Speak of Living Inbetween Cultures," particularly about Asma Gull Hasan. I learned a great deal about the Muslim culture from her reading that I had only assumed before from the skewed material I've seen from the news. I did not realize that the Qur'an gave women that kind of status and honored them as much as they did. It really was an interesting reading and a learning experience at the same time! --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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== Kyoko Mori, Japanese-American, 2000 ==<br />
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== Jamala McFadden’s Story of 1990s Welfare Assistance, 2002 ==<br />
This is a "feel good story". I love hearing about women beating the odds,for an education, with children no less. Welfare made a difference in McFadden's life because she had drive and ambition and used government assistance to better her life. This is what assistance if for. Too often we hear of people misusing welfare therefore giving a stereotype to its recipients. McFadden spoke of the changes made in the welfare system while she was still in college. She said she was lucky to be "grandfathered" in. I do feel that daycare assistance should be offered to women attending college. To me, this would be money better spent than on women who have a minimum wage jobs. The thought would be like McFadden, these education seeking women would break the chain. --Nikole Wellman<br />
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== Rebecca Walker on the 3rd Wave, 2005 ==<br />
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== Ms.Magazine on 5 rights women could lose, 2005 ==<br />
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Well, this is a frightening thought, however, if this was to happen.... move over Betty Friedan. We will have to make room in the history books for a new set of radicals. This country is not ready for the "Girl Power" we all have. <br />
In all seriousness, These rights will never be taken away. Fist of all, we may just have our first women President in office. There are too many women in powerful positions to loose these five rights Ms. Magazines speaks of. People such as Hillary Clinton, my mother-in-law, Dr. M and myself would not take women take a step back. Before taking this class, I really had no idea how far we've come....We've come too far to go back--Nikole Wellman<br />
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== US, 565-586 – Rebecca Tsosie, “Changing Women: The Crosscurrents of American Indian Female Identity.”—1988 ==<br />
Prior to reading Rebecca Tsosie's essay "Changing Women: The Crosscurrents of American Indian Feminine Identity," I had never known Native American literature to be so profoundly developed. After reading the article, I definitely have a deep respect for the Native American literature genre. Maybe I will read some of it someday.--Justin Mattos<br />
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Like Justin, I too never realized just how developed the Native American literature was... and it feels silly for it to just now be dawning on me from the stories I have read related to Native Americans and the stories, songs, poems, et cetera that were mentioned in the stories/articles. I wonder why we don't have more of the Native American literature in public school... we seem to have so much in the way of English and American.... --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I agree with Justin, I never realized the extent of Native American literature out there. I have read some picture books that were designed to teach lessons to children, but other than that it never really occurred to me to look to see what else was there. I also too was curious as to why we don't see more of this genre of literature in schools. We have so many varieties of literature in the schools, why not include a few more? --Kellye Sorber<br />
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“Changing Women…” by Rebecca Tsosie discusses the stereotypes that have been created about Indian women through literature and the media. On page 567 she states that “The princess/squaw dichotomy does not even approach the historical realities of Indian women…the primary factor in perceptions of both European women and Indian women became their definition in terms of their relationship with males.” I see her point, but it’s not something that’s special to Indian women. Stereotypes are developed and portrayed for almost any other type of way you can classify a person. In one of the first few weeks of class we read about how the views of Spanish-Mexican women were stereotyped and romanticized through the image that Barceló created for herself… --Jessica Kilday<br />
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<br />
MAW, Chapters 11-13<br />
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== Cathy Tuley, “Clerical Workers Unite,” 1976. ==<br />
Cathy Tuley's involvement in organizing clerical workers helped her personal development by becoming more assertive and self-reliant in the workplace. She refers to utilizing this new found assertiveness in her personal life saying "Sometimes it's kind of rough when you do that to your husband! 'Give me the fact,' you know. 'Prove what you just said.'" This made me think that their was a duality that women had to play between work and home. In work she could be somewhat assertive (depending on her position), and in the home she was expected to remain a subservient role to the man of the house.--LisaM<br />
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== Crystal Lee Sutton, “The Real ‘Norma Rae’ Tells Her Story,” 1986. ==<br />
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Reading "The Real 'Norma Rae' Tells her Story" by Crystal Lee Sutton sure does bring back memories. I remember the first time I dealt with someone like that and coming up with well-reasoned arguments and everything in an attempt to persuade them. It's weird, when someone is not doing what they are supposed to do, why would they actually extend to you common courtesies like honesty. It really doesn't make any sense.--Justin Mattos<br />
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== Susan Eisenberg, “Hard-Hatted Women,” 1988. ==<br />
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I thought the "Hard-hatted Women" essay in MAW was amazing! To learn that she became an electrician and managed to hide her pregnancy for 6 months before finally going on maternity-type leaving was just incredible! I was sad that she had a miscarriage, but was really impressed with how her co-workers supported her. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I understand fully how Eisenberg felt. I found out I was pregnant with my my second son, Nathan, the week before 9/11. We lived in the NJ/NY area at the time and EVERYONE was in fear of loosing their jobs. My fear went a step further thinking if anyone would loose their jobs it would be me. I kept my pregnancy to myself for a while. Then I got over my new hormonal state and dared anyone to discriminate against me. Unlike Eisenberg, I was not in the construction industry and It was 2002. --Nikole Wellman<br />
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== Jessie Lopez De La Cruz, “Organizing the Farm Workers,” 1980 ==<br />
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<br />
== Johnnie Tillmon, “Women on Welfare,” 1972 ==<br />
The movie "Claudine" starring James Earl Jones and Diahann Carroll presents some of the issues raised in "Women on Welfare" by Johnnie Tillmon. When I saw it a few years ago, I remember thinking about how typically 70's it seemed. True it was released in '74, but what I mean is that it seemed to depict exactly what it meant to be black in the 1970's. Has anyone else seen it?--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
<br />
== Mariah Burton Nelson, “Sex and Sports” – 1994 ==<br />
I realize it is the point of the view of the author, but I honestly never thought there were so many lesbians in women sports leagues. I just never associated the two. Sure, I've heard other people associate women sports stars and lesbianism, but I never took them seriously. Wow, that's interesting.--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I too was surprised to learn about how many women in sports were actually lesbians in this article. I had never heard anything ever reported on it. I did know that women fought hard to get recognition like the men did in their sorts. I remember watching a show on the women's US soccer team and how they fought for better pay like the male US soccer team as well as how Mia Hamm (sp?) was the one who helped them get that recoginition by doing the Pert shampoo commercials. Even when I think about it today, how many womens sports are actually on TV, I can think of plenty of male sports, like football, baseball, basketball, but women the only one or two I can think of is golf, and I think basketball, I could be wrong on that one though.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
== Marissa Navarro, “Becoming La Mujer” – 1998 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Nancy Mairs, “Women and Disabilities” – 1986 ==<br />
I found the Why me? Why not? portion of "Women and Disabilities" by Nancy Mairs to be fairly interesting. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I found myself able to relate to this reading because when I was in middle school my Mom was diagnosed with MS. And I honestly have to say that if my mom hadn't been my hero before, she definitely is now. However, unlike Nancy Mairs my mother would never call herself a cripple, or at least I've never heard her do so, and I believe that this is largely because of the fact that the term cripple makes it sound like you can't do something, and lord help you if you ever tell my mother she can't do something. So I think that one of the reasons that this story stood out to me the most is because I've seen this first hand, yes my Mom can't do half the things she used to be able to do, but she refuses to let it depress her, she's always fighting to keep going and keep walking, but at the same time she does face things that others don't, such as a difficulty getting up and down stairs, which makes it hard for her to do some of the things she used to do. Though I did find it interesting that disabilities weren't talked about much until the 80s. -Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
== Abra Fortune Chernik, “The Voice of an Anorexic” – 1995 ==<br />
<br />
This story really saddened me, because of how this girl viewed her self for so long. I was just glad that it had a happy ending, and that she was lucky enough to have survived as long as she did with this disease. This article just goes to prove that every time period through out the history of women there is an expected stereotype that is portrayed in culture and especially media like for this woman. For example during WWII media portrayed women as working to help to the counry but as soon as the men returned home they were happy to go back to being house wives, which in many cases wasn't true. For Abra Chernik, magazines of pretty skinny models was the new portrait of women, and often still is today.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
== Eve Ensler, “The Vagina Monologues” – 1997 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Susan Faludi, “The Backlash Against Feminism” – 1991 ==<br />
I thought it was interesting to read “The Backlash against Feminism” by Susan Faludi. In it, she points out that even though politicians and the media are continually boasting that women have indeed reached equality and every opportunity is open to them, there is another front that these people are overlooking, and that is emotional. Women still face continual pressure by the media to conform to what is expected of them. As a result there are increasing stories, such as the one by Abra Chernik, of “stress-induced disorders.” It seems as though we are now entering a time where politics may not influence a woman’s limitations in society as much as popular culture. --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
<br />
== Anita Hill, “A Woman of Conscience” – 1991 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Katie Roiphe, “Date Rape: Hysteria or Epidemic?” – 1991 ==<br />
<br />
I had mixed feelings about this reading. I had never thought that the very concept of date rape could enforce the traditional stereotyped sexual roles that women always had of being the ones who don't want sex when men did. However, I also feel like Katie Roiphe, while she has good points, ignores the possibility that some of these women really didn't want sex with these men and instead she seems to have the idea that these women were using the cry of rape to excuse their sexual behaviour. While in some cases this might be true, I highly doubt this is the majority. -Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
== Christine Hoff Sommers, “Who Stole Feminism?” – 1994 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== United States v. Virginia (1996), “Equal Protection Under the Law” [VMI case] – 1996 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Jennifer Baumgardner and Amy Richards, “A Third Wave Feminist Manifesta” – 2000 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Charlotte Bunch, “Global Feminism” – 1995 [at the UN Beijing Women’s Conference] ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Gloria Anzaldua, “The Borderlands” – 1987 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Wow, the head chef of the Roosevelt Hotel in New York City doesn't seem to be that prestigious, if Velma James's 1976 photograph "A Day in the Kitchen" means anything. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
It was kind of strange seeing the photo of Marion Jones in the book.--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
<br />
Must have been strange being a Stanford graduate with a degree in psychology and being asked to go to charm school.--Justin Mattos</div>Efran6hihttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_14_Questions/Comments328--Week 14 Questions/Comments2008-04-23T19:40:26Z<p>Efran6hi: /* Nancy Mairs, “Women and Disabilities” – 1986 */</p>
<hr />
<div>MP, 459-469, 506-524<br />
<br />
== Roe v. Wade Decision (both Blackmun’s majority ruling and White’s dissent). ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Lindsey Van Gelder reports on “Women vs. the NY Times” in Ms. in 1978. ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Connaught Marshner explains what social conservatives really want, 1988. ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Planned Parenthood versus Casey, 1992 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Gloria Anzaldua soeakes about her identity, 1999 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Asma Gull Hasan, Pakistani-American, 2000 ==<br />
<br />
I learned a lot this week in the reading about "First- and Second- Generation Immigrant Women Speak of Living Inbetween Cultures," particularly about Asma Gull Hasan. I learned a great deal about the Muslim culture from her reading that I had only assumed before from the skewed material I've seen from the news. I did not realize that the Qur'an gave women that kind of status and honored them as much as they did. It really was an interesting reading and a learning experience at the same time! --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
<br />
== Kyoko Mori, Japanese-American, 2000 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Jamala McFadden’s Story of 1990s Welfare Assistance, 2002 ==<br />
This is a "feel good story". I love hearing about women beating the odds,for an education, with children no less. Welfare made a difference in McFadden's life because she had drive and ambition and used government assistance to better her life. This is what assistance if for. Too often we hear of people misusing welfare therefore giving a stereotype to its recipients. McFadden spoke of the changes made in the welfare system while she was still in college. She said she was lucky to be "grandfathered" in. I do feel that daycare assistance should be offered to women attending college. To me, this would be money better spent than on women who have a minimum wage jobs. The thought would be like McFadden, these education seeking women would break the chain. --Nikole Wellman<br />
<br />
== Rebecca Walker on the 3rd Wave, 2005 ==<br />
<br />
== Ms.Magazine on 5 rights women could lose, 2005 ==<br />
<br />
Well, this is a frightening thought, however, if this was to happen.... move over Betty Friedan. We will have to make room in the history books for a new set of radicals. This country is not ready for the "Girl Power" we all have. <br />
In all seriousness, These rights will never be taken away. Fist of all, we may just have our first women President in office. There are too many women in powerful positions to loose these five rights Ms. Magazines speaks of. People such as Hillary Clinton, my mother-in-law, Dr. M and myself would not take women take a step back. Before taking this class, I really had no idea how far we've come....We've come too far to go back--Nikole Wellman<br />
<br />
== US, 565-586 – Rebecca Tsosie, “Changing Women: The Crosscurrents of American Indian Female Identity.”—1988 ==<br />
Prior to reading Rebecca Tsosie's essay "Changing Women: The Crosscurrents of American Indian Feminine Identity," I had never known Native American literature to be so profoundly developed. After reading the article, I definitely have a deep respect for the Native American literature genre. Maybe I will read some of it someday.--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Like Justin, I too never realized just how developed the Native American literature was... and it feels silly for it to just now be dawning on me from the stories I have read related to Native Americans and the stories, songs, poems, et cetera that were mentioned in the stories/articles. I wonder why we don't have more of the Native American literature in public school... we seem to have so much in the way of English and American.... --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I agree with Justin, I never realized the extent of Native American literature out there. I have read some picture books that were designed to teach lessons to children, but other than that it never really occurred to me to look to see what else was there. I also too was curious as to why we don't see more of this genre of literature in schools. We have so many varieties of literature in the schools, why not include a few more? --Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
“Changing Women…” by Rebecca Tsosie discusses the stereotypes that have been created about Indian women through literature and the media. On page 567 she states that “The princess/squaw dichotomy does not even approach the historical realities of Indian women…the primary factor in perceptions of both European women and Indian women became their definition in terms of their relationship with males.” I see her point, but it’s not something that’s special to Indian women. Stereotypes are developed and portrayed for almost any other type of way you can classify a person. In one of the first few weeks of class we read about how the views of Spanish-Mexican women were stereotyped and romanticized through the image that Barceló created for herself… --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
MAW, Chapters 11-13<br />
<br />
== Cathy Tuley, “Clerical Workers Unite,” 1976. ==<br />
Cathy Tuley's involvement in organizing clerical workers helped her personal development by becoming more assertive and self-reliant in the workplace. She refers to utilizing this new found assertiveness in her personal life saying "Sometimes it's kind of rough when you do that to your husband! 'Give me the fact,' you know. 'Prove what you just said.'" This made me think that their was a duality that women had to play between work and home. In work she could be somewhat assertive (depending on her position), and in the home she was expected to remain a subservient role to the man of the house.--LisaM<br />
<br />
== Crystal Lee Sutton, “The Real ‘Norma Rae’ Tells Her Story,” 1986. ==<br />
<br />
Reading "The Real 'Norma Rae' Tells her Story" by Crystal Lee Sutton sure does bring back memories. I remember the first time I dealt with someone like that and coming up with well-reasoned arguments and everything in an attempt to persuade them. It's weird, when someone is not doing what they are supposed to do, why would they actually extend to you common courtesies like honesty. It really doesn't make any sense.--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
== Susan Eisenberg, “Hard-Hatted Women,” 1988. ==<br />
<br />
I thought the "Hard-hatted Women" essay in MAW was amazing! To learn that she became an electrician and managed to hide her pregnancy for 6 months before finally going on maternity-type leaving was just incredible! I was sad that she had a miscarriage, but was really impressed with how her co-workers supported her. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I understand fully how Eisenberg felt. I found out I was pregnant with my my second son, Nathan, the week before 9/11. We lived in the NJ/NY area at the time and EVERYONE was in fear of loosing their jobs. My fear went a step further thinking if anyone would loose their jobs it would be me. I kept my pregnancy to myself for a while. Then I got over my new hormonal state and dared anyone to discriminate against me. Unlike Eisenberg, I was not in the construction industry and It was 2002. --Nikole Wellman<br />
<br />
== Jessie Lopez De La Cruz, “Organizing the Farm Workers,” 1980 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Johnnie Tillmon, “Women on Welfare,” 1972 ==<br />
The movie "Claudine" starring James Earl Jones and Diahann Carroll presents some of the issues raised in "Women on Welfare" by Johnnie Tillmon. When I saw it a few years ago, I remember thinking about how typically 70's it seemed. True it was released in '74, but what I mean is that it seemed to depict exactly what it meant to be black in the 1970's. Has anyone else seen it?--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
<br />
== Mariah Burton Nelson, “Sex and Sports” – 1994 ==<br />
I realize it is the point of the view of the author, but I honestly never thought there were so many lesbians in women sports leagues. I just never associated the two. Sure, I've heard other people associate women sports stars and lesbianism, but I never took them seriously. Wow, that's interesting.--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I too was surprised to learn about how many women in sports were actually lesbians in this article. I had never heard anything ever reported on it. I did know that women fought hard to get recognition like the men did in their sorts. I remember watching a show on the women's US soccer team and how they fought for better pay like the male US soccer team as well as how Mia Hamm (sp?) was the one who helped them get that recoginition by doing the Pert shampoo commercials. Even when I think about it today, how many womens sports are actually on TV, I can think of plenty of male sports, like football, baseball, basketball, but women the only one or two I can think of is golf, and I think basketball, I could be wrong on that one though.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
== Marissa Navarro, “Becoming La Mujer” – 1998 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Nancy Mairs, “Women and Disabilities” – 1986 ==<br />
I found the Why me? Why not? portion of "Women and Disabilities" by Nancy Mairs to be fairly interesting. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I found myself able to relate to this reading because when I was in middle school my Mom was diagnosed with MS. And I honestly have to say that if my mom hadn't been my hero before, she definitely is now. However, unlike Nancy Mairs my mother would never call herself a cripple, or at least I've never heard her do so, and I believe that this is largely because of the fact that the term cripple makes it sound like you can't do something, and lord help you if you ever tell my mother she can't do something. So I think that one of the reasons that this story stood out to me the most is because I've seen this first hand, yes my Mom can't do half the things she used to be able to do, but she refuses to let it depress her, she's always fighting to keep going and keep walking, but at the same time she does face things that others don't, such as a difficulty getting up and down stairs, which makes it hard for her to do some of the things she used to do. Though I did find it interesting that disabilities weren't talked about much until the 80s. -Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
== Abra Fortune Chernik, “The Voice of an Anorexic” – 1995 ==<br />
<br />
This story really saddened me, because of how this girl viewed her self for so long. I was just glad that it had a happy ending, and that she was lucky enough to have survived as long as she did with this disease. This article just goes to prove that every time period through out the history of women there is an expected stereotype that is portrayed in culture and especially media like for this woman. For example during WWII media portrayed women as working to help to the counry but as soon as the men returned home they were happy to go back to being house wives, which in many cases wasn't true. For Abra Chernik, magazines of pretty skinny models was the new portrait of women, and often still is today.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
== Eve Ensler, “The Vagina Monologues” – 1997 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Susan Faludi, “The Backlash Against Feminism” – 1991 ==<br />
I thought it was interesting to read “The Backlash against Feminism” by Susan Faludi. In it, she points out that even though politicians and the media are continually boasting that women have indeed reached equality and every opportunity is open to them, there is another front that these people are overlooking, and that is emotional. Women still face continual pressure by the media to conform to what is expected of them. As a result there are increasing stories, such as the one by Abra Chernik, of “stress-induced disorders.” It seems as though we are now entering a time where politics may not influence a woman’s limitations in society as much as popular culture. --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
<br />
== Anita Hill, “A Woman of Conscience” – 1991 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Katie Roiphe, “Date Rape: Hysteria or Epidemic?” – 1991 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Christine Hoff Sommers, “Who Stole Feminism?” – 1994 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== United States v. Virginia (1996), “Equal Protection Under the Law” [VMI case] – 1996 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Jennifer Baumgardner and Amy Richards, “A Third Wave Feminist Manifesta” – 2000 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Charlotte Bunch, “Global Feminism” – 1995 [at the UN Beijing Women’s Conference] ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Gloria Anzaldua, “The Borderlands” – 1987 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Wow, the head chef of the Roosevelt Hotel in New York City doesn't seem to be that prestigious, if Velma James's 1976 photograph "A Day in the Kitchen" means anything. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
It was kind of strange seeing the photo of Marion Jones in the book.--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
<br />
Must have been strange being a Stanford graduate with a degree in psychology and being asked to go to charm school.--Justin Mattos</div>Efran6hihttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_11_Questions/Comments328--Week 11 Questions/Comments2008-04-02T05:02:06Z<p>Efran6hi: /* Farnham and Lundberg, Modem Woman: The Lost Sex (1947) */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Debate topics or comparative questions ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Betty Jeanne Boggs, "Balancing Work and Family" ==<br />
<br />
I really liked the article "Balancing Work and Family." I really loved how this family was backwards, even for the 50s-60s. The husband was still trying to finish school, the wife is working, they aren't that worried about having children. They accept it when it completely surprises them. I really like the fact that Betty Boggs worked so much and she actually liked her job, she got to choose her job, I also do like that she did try working during her first child. The fact that she at least gave it a shot was impressive to me. When she had her second child it was understandable that she wanted to stay home, also her husband by then didn't need her to be working all the time to support the family. I know there is a stereotype of families from the 50s, they are in their perfectly manicured houses and have the perfect families were dad works and mom cooks and cleans all day. But was the manicured family real, or was it created by the media? and were families like the Boggs just as "real" as the ''perfect'' manicured family?<br />
-- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
I also really liked the article by Betty Jeanne Boggs. It really struck me as out of the time period because of the wife working so the husband could finish school. Also the attitude of if 'one can't go and have fun, well, the other wont go either because its not fair.' I thought that the relationship she and her husband had was amazing, especially for the 1950s and 60s. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I agree with the above two posts, although this article definitely showed me that the idealistic picture of family during the 50's wasnt real, and although that was a bit jarring because i had never really thought that such a modern relationship existed back then, it was nice to see that it was possible. Also i feel that often we assume that relationships in the past were purely based on the children both currently present or expected, and that the actual relationship between two people was never prioritized, i like that this is the opposite, this couple truly seems to care for one another if they are blatantly defying the stereotypes of the day in order to make each other's dream possible. --Julie Robert<br />
<br />
== Wilma Mankiller, "Indian Relocation" - 1993 about life in the 1950s ==<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Joanna Rubin, "An Unplanned Pregnancy" 1950s ==<br />
<br />
This article really made me sad because the author mentioned feeling so alone because she didn't feel that she could tell her dad about the pregnancy. I really wonder how many young women today still feel this way, since abortions are still a very heated debate in today's society. I would imagine that many young women today also feel this sense of loneliness that Joanna Rubin felt during this time in her life. - Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
== Ethel Barol Taylor, "Women Strike for Peace" ==<br />
The article "Women Strike for Peace" by Ethel Barol Taylor really hit home for me. She talks about handing out leaflets saying "Take your children off milk," and she had very good reason to do so. The nuclear fallout from the testing of the atomic bomb at Los Alamos settled over central Iowa to central Missouri, and some unoccupied parts of Wyoming. My mothers entire family is from central Missouri, and she grew up in central Iowa. The radiation from the fallout affected the grass, which the dairy cows grazed on, and the radiation got into the milk. We are now seeing the results of people who drank radiation poisoned milk in the late 1940's and the 1950's. My grandfather developed thyroid cancer. My grandmother had a gouiter. My mother had thyroid cancer - she had to have her entire thyroid removed. Many of her cousins also developed cancer. So good for the ladies of Women Strike for Peace! Thanks for trying to raise awareness! - Sarah H.<br />
<br />
The article was also interesting in that these women ware able to protest in such a lady-like manner that they were able to avoid any harsh criticism. Their handling of protests and of HUAC investigations was so impeccable that HUAC and those like them were being ridiculed. It was an interesting way to use the constraints of the time in their favor. - Sarah H.<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Rachel Carson Answers her Critics - 1963 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Louisa Randall Church - "Parents, Architects of Peace" 1946 ==<br />
The first reading in MP by Louisa Randall I thought was very interesting. It takes on more of a psychology perspective to parenting as she outlines what she believes are the major duties that parents have for their children. First of all, when talking about raising the children, Randall uses the term “parents” in the plural and discusses the equal responsibility of the man and the woman in raising the children, which shows a definite shift from the “women in the home” attitude that had prevailed previously. Also, it shows the growing responsibilities that parents have toward children. It extends the previous belief that women were responsible for raising moral children further to include “love and affection, equal rights, discipline, freedom, enrichment, cooperation, and education.” I also found it funny in the end when she suggested that “School officials, everywhere, and citizens, too, should give active support to the idea of training for parenthood…” (412). --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I also found this article interesting but what stood out to me was the reference to parents (plural) and the emphasis she seems to place on equality within the household. I'm wondering how many women during this period shared this ideal since this is also the period where women were shifting back to the world of the home and were taking on more responsibility for raising the children, which places more importance on her influence than the fathers, which is not equality at all. So I found this article interesting but am slightly confused as to how common her point of view was during this period. - Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
== Farnham and Lundberg, Modem Woman: The Lost Sex (1947) ==<br />
<br />
Several of the other readings dealt with the increasing notion of women working outside the home, in addition to raising a family. As Marnia Farnham points out, the progress that has been made in terms of opportunities and technologies for women “serves less to clarify and simplify her life than to complicate it with conflict piled on conflict…” (412). She goes further to say that women are no longer making progress for feminization but have instead begun to become more masculine. Is she suggesting that these women are gradually leaving their traditional gender roles and should be classified as women only in a biological sense? In order to be equal do they both first have to be defined as “masculine?” --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I find this article interesting because I actually see a lot of parallels between this period and what some people today still believe. First, I noticed that they attack the idea of child day care systems that, according to them, leave a child unsatisfied. In today's society I know many women who feel that day care, at least for children below pre-school age, is a bad idea because it doesn't teach them the discipline that children need to learn. I found this connection to today's world very striking as I was reading this article.-Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
== Pauli Murray, 1947 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Joyce Johnson - 1955 ==<br />
The article in MP, "Nonconformist Joyce Johnson..." was very interesting. I really liked he reasoning for sleeping around or before marriage. Since you have stayed so late it didn't matter, as long as you didn't go home. So instead of going home, you find some guy to go home with. First of all, with rules like that you are asking to get pregnant. This account however, was so shady, the means of getting an abortion is insane. She had to be taken by a sketchy guy, to this horribly mean Dr. who frowns on abortions but will perform them illegally. Did all Doctors frown upon their patients when they give abortions? I feel that if you are going to risk your life (not meaning death but imprisonment) and medical license you must be pro choice. I think the sketchiest part of all is when the procedure it over with, this "escort" invites you back to fire island, its almost like he is saying, want to get pregnant again this weekend? --- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Letter from black reader to ''The Ladder'', in 1957 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Betty Friedan, "The Problem That Has No Name" ==<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Rickie Solinger, politics of abortion, 1950-1970 ==<br />
I actually felt a little dumb with this week's readings. There was a type of abortion that was mentioned in multiple articles, but the one I remember off the top of my head was "Women and the Politics of Hospital Abortion Committees, 1950-1970." They mentioned 'therapeutic abortions' and either I missed where they they discussed what it is or it is one those things they figure the audience knows what they were talking about. I have no idea what that kind of abortion is, I have never heard of it until this reading. --Ashley Wilkins (feeling a little dumb right now) <br />
<br />
<br />
== Vicki Ruiz, "'Star Struck': Acculturation, Adolescence, and Mexican American Women, 1920-1950" ==</div>Efran6hihttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_11_Questions/Comments328--Week 11 Questions/Comments2008-04-02T04:51:06Z<p>Efran6hi: /* Louisa Randall Church - "Parents, Architects of Peace" 1946 */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Debate topics or comparative questions ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Betty Jeanne Boggs, "Balancing Work and Family" ==<br />
<br />
I really liked the article "Balancing Work and Family." I really loved how this family was backwards, even for the 50s-60s. The husband was still trying to finish school, the wife is working, they aren't that worried about having children. They accept it when it completely surprises them. I really like the fact that Betty Boggs worked so much and she actually liked her job, she got to choose her job, I also do like that she did try working during her first child. The fact that she at least gave it a shot was impressive to me. When she had her second child it was understandable that she wanted to stay home, also her husband by then didn't need her to be working all the time to support the family. I know there is a stereotype of families from the 50s, they are in their perfectly manicured houses and have the perfect families were dad works and mom cooks and cleans all day. But was the manicured family real, or was it created by the media? and were families like the Boggs just as "real" as the ''perfect'' manicured family?<br />
-- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
I also really liked the article by Betty Jeanne Boggs. It really struck me as out of the time period because of the wife working so the husband could finish school. Also the attitude of if 'one can't go and have fun, well, the other wont go either because its not fair.' I thought that the relationship she and her husband had was amazing, especially for the 1950s and 60s. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I agree with the above two posts, although this article definitely showed me that the idealistic picture of family during the 50's wasnt real, and although that was a bit jarring because i had never really thought that such a modern relationship existed back then, it was nice to see that it was possible. Also i feel that often we assume that relationships in the past were purely based on the children both currently present or expected, and that the actual relationship between two people was never prioritized, i like that this is the opposite, this couple truly seems to care for one another if they are blatantly defying the stereotypes of the day in order to make each other's dream possible. --Julie Robert<br />
<br />
== Wilma Mankiller, "Indian Relocation" - 1993 about life in the 1950s ==<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Joanna Rubin, "An Unplanned Pregnancy" 1950s ==<br />
<br />
This article really made me sad because the author mentioned feeling so alone because she didn't feel that she could tell her dad about the pregnancy. I really wonder how many young women today still feel this way, since abortions are still a very heated debate in today's society. I would imagine that many young women today also feel this sense of loneliness that Joanna Rubin felt during this time in her life. - Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
== Ethel Barol Taylor, "Women Strike for Peace" ==<br />
The article "Women Strike for Peace" by Ethel Barol Taylor really hit home for me. She talks about handing out leaflets saying "Take your children off milk," and she had very good reason to do so. The nuclear fallout from the testing of the atomic bomb at Los Alamos settled over central Iowa to central Missouri, and some unoccupied parts of Wyoming. My mothers entire family is from central Missouri, and she grew up in central Iowa. The radiation from the fallout affected the grass, which the dairy cows grazed on, and the radiation got into the milk. We are now seeing the results of people who drank radiation poisoned milk in the late 1940's and the 1950's. My grandfather developed thyroid cancer. My grandmother had a gouiter. My mother had thyroid cancer - she had to have her entire thyroid removed. Many of her cousins also developed cancer. So good for the ladies of Women Strike for Peace! Thanks for trying to raise awareness! - Sarah H.<br />
<br />
The article was also interesting in that these women ware able to protest in such a lady-like manner that they were able to avoid any harsh criticism. Their handling of protests and of HUAC investigations was so impeccable that HUAC and those like them were being ridiculed. It was an interesting way to use the constraints of the time in their favor. - Sarah H.<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Rachel Carson Answers her Critics - 1963 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Louisa Randall Church - "Parents, Architects of Peace" 1946 ==<br />
The first reading in MP by Louisa Randall I thought was very interesting. It takes on more of a psychology perspective to parenting as she outlines what she believes are the major duties that parents have for their children. First of all, when talking about raising the children, Randall uses the term “parents” in the plural and discusses the equal responsibility of the man and the woman in raising the children, which shows a definite shift from the “women in the home” attitude that had prevailed previously. Also, it shows the growing responsibilities that parents have toward children. It extends the previous belief that women were responsible for raising moral children further to include “love and affection, equal rights, discipline, freedom, enrichment, cooperation, and education.” I also found it funny in the end when she suggested that “School officials, everywhere, and citizens, too, should give active support to the idea of training for parenthood…” (412). --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I also found this article interesting but what stood out to me was the reference to parents (plural) and the emphasis she seems to place on equality within the household. I'm wondering how many women during this period shared this ideal since this is also the period where women were shifting back to the world of the home and were taking on more responsibility for raising the children, which places more importance on her influence than the fathers, which is not equality at all. So I found this article interesting but am slightly confused as to how common her point of view was during this period. - Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
== Farnham and Lundberg, Modem Woman: The Lost Sex (1947) ==<br />
<br />
Several of the other readings dealt with the increasing notion of women working outside the home, in addition to raising a family. As Marnia Farnham points out, the progress that has been made in terms of opportunities and technologies for women “serves less to clarify and simplify her life than to complicate it with conflict piled on conflict…” (412). She goes further to say that women are no longer making progress for feminization but have instead begun to become more masculine. Is she suggesting that these women are gradually leaving their traditional gender roles and should be classified as women only in a biological sense? In order to be equal do they both first have to be defined as “masculine?” --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
<br />
== Pauli Murray, 1947 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Joyce Johnson - 1955 ==<br />
The article in MP, "Nonconformist Joyce Johnson..." was very interesting. I really liked he reasoning for sleeping around or before marriage. Since you have stayed so late it didn't matter, as long as you didn't go home. So instead of going home, you find some guy to go home with. First of all, with rules like that you are asking to get pregnant. This account however, was so shady, the means of getting an abortion is insane. She had to be taken by a sketchy guy, to this horribly mean Dr. who frowns on abortions but will perform them illegally. Did all Doctors frown upon their patients when they give abortions? I feel that if you are going to risk your life (not meaning death but imprisonment) and medical license you must be pro choice. I think the sketchiest part of all is when the procedure it over with, this "escort" invites you back to fire island, its almost like he is saying, want to get pregnant again this weekend? --- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Letter from black reader to ''The Ladder'', in 1957 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Betty Friedan, "The Problem That Has No Name" ==<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Rickie Solinger, politics of abortion, 1950-1970 ==<br />
I actually felt a little dumb with this week's readings. There was a type of abortion that was mentioned in multiple articles, but the one I remember off the top of my head was "Women and the Politics of Hospital Abortion Committees, 1950-1970." They mentioned 'therapeutic abortions' and either I missed where they they discussed what it is or it is one those things they figure the audience knows what they were talking about. I have no idea what that kind of abortion is, I have never heard of it until this reading. --Ashley Wilkins (feeling a little dumb right now) <br />
<br />
<br />
== Vicki Ruiz, "'Star Struck': Acculturation, Adolescence, and Mexican American Women, 1920-1950" ==</div>Efran6hihttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_11_Questions/Comments328--Week 11 Questions/Comments2008-04-02T04:41:58Z<p>Efran6hi: /* Joanna Rubin, "An Unplanned Pregnancy" 1950s */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Debate topics or comparative questions ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Betty Jeanne Boggs, "Balancing Work and Family" ==<br />
<br />
I really liked the article "Balancing Work and Family." I really loved how this family was backwards, even for the 50s-60s. The husband was still trying to finish school, the wife is working, they aren't that worried about having children. They accept it when it completely surprises them. I really like the fact that Betty Boggs worked so much and she actually liked her job, she got to choose her job, I also do like that she did try working during her first child. The fact that she at least gave it a shot was impressive to me. When she had her second child it was understandable that she wanted to stay home, also her husband by then didn't need her to be working all the time to support the family. I know there is a stereotype of families from the 50s, they are in their perfectly manicured houses and have the perfect families were dad works and mom cooks and cleans all day. But was the manicured family real, or was it created by the media? and were families like the Boggs just as "real" as the ''perfect'' manicured family?<br />
-- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
I also really liked the article by Betty Jeanne Boggs. It really struck me as out of the time period because of the wife working so the husband could finish school. Also the attitude of if 'one can't go and have fun, well, the other wont go either because its not fair.' I thought that the relationship she and her husband had was amazing, especially for the 1950s and 60s. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I agree with the above two posts, although this article definitely showed me that the idealistic picture of family during the 50's wasnt real, and although that was a bit jarring because i had never really thought that such a modern relationship existed back then, it was nice to see that it was possible. Also i feel that often we assume that relationships in the past were purely based on the children both currently present or expected, and that the actual relationship between two people was never prioritized, i like that this is the opposite, this couple truly seems to care for one another if they are blatantly defying the stereotypes of the day in order to make each other's dream possible. --Julie Robert<br />
<br />
== Wilma Mankiller, "Indian Relocation" - 1993 about life in the 1950s ==<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Joanna Rubin, "An Unplanned Pregnancy" 1950s ==<br />
<br />
This article really made me sad because the author mentioned feeling so alone because she didn't feel that she could tell her dad about the pregnancy. I really wonder how many young women today still feel this way, since abortions are still a very heated debate in today's society. I would imagine that many young women today also feel this sense of loneliness that Joanna Rubin felt during this time in her life. - Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
== Ethel Barol Taylor, "Women Strike for Peace" ==<br />
The article "Women Strike for Peace" by Ethel Barol Taylor really hit home for me. She talks about handing out leaflets saying "Take your children off milk," and she had very good reason to do so. The nuclear fallout from the testing of the atomic bomb at Los Alamos settled over central Iowa to central Missouri, and some unoccupied parts of Wyoming. My mothers entire family is from central Missouri, and she grew up in central Iowa. The radiation from the fallout affected the grass, which the dairy cows grazed on, and the radiation got into the milk. We are now seeing the results of people who drank radiation poisoned milk in the late 1940's and the 1950's. My grandfather developed thyroid cancer. My grandmother had a gouiter. My mother had thyroid cancer - she had to have her entire thyroid removed. Many of her cousins also developed cancer. So good for the ladies of Women Strike for Peace! Thanks for trying to raise awareness! - Sarah H.<br />
<br />
The article was also interesting in that these women ware able to protest in such a lady-like manner that they were able to avoid any harsh criticism. Their handling of protests and of HUAC investigations was so impeccable that HUAC and those like them were being ridiculed. It was an interesting way to use the constraints of the time in their favor. - Sarah H.<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Rachel Carson Answers her Critics - 1963 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Louisa Randall Church - "Parents, Architects of Peace" 1946 ==<br />
The first reading in MP by Louisa Randall I thought was very interesting. It takes on more of a psychology perspective to parenting as she outlines what she believes are the major duties that parents have for their children. First of all, when talking about raising the children, Randall uses the term “parents” in the plural and discusses the equal responsibility of the man and the woman in raising the children, which shows a definite shift from the “women in the home” attitude that had prevailed previously. Also, it shows the growing responsibilities that parents have toward children. It extends the previous belief that women were responsible for raising moral children further to include “love and affection, equal rights, discipline, freedom, enrichment, cooperation, and education.” I also found it funny in the end when she suggested that “School officials, everywhere, and citizens, too, should give active support to the idea of training for parenthood…” (412). --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Farnham and Lundberg, Modem Woman: The Lost Sex (1947) ==<br />
<br />
Several of the other readings dealt with the increasing notion of women working outside the home, in addition to raising a family. As Marnia Farnham points out, the progress that has been made in terms of opportunities and technologies for women “serves less to clarify and simplify her life than to complicate it with conflict piled on conflict…” (412). She goes further to say that women are no longer making progress for feminization but have instead begun to become more masculine. Is she suggesting that these women are gradually leaving their traditional gender roles and should be classified as women only in a biological sense? In order to be equal do they both first have to be defined as “masculine?” --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
<br />
== Pauli Murray, 1947 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Joyce Johnson - 1955 ==<br />
The article in MP, "Nonconformist Joyce Johnson..." was very interesting. I really liked he reasoning for sleeping around or before marriage. Since you have stayed so late it didn't matter, as long as you didn't go home. So instead of going home, you find some guy to go home with. First of all, with rules like that you are asking to get pregnant. This account however, was so shady, the means of getting an abortion is insane. She had to be taken by a sketchy guy, to this horribly mean Dr. who frowns on abortions but will perform them illegally. Did all Doctors frown upon their patients when they give abortions? I feel that if you are going to risk your life (not meaning death but imprisonment) and medical license you must be pro choice. I think the sketchiest part of all is when the procedure it over with, this "escort" invites you back to fire island, its almost like he is saying, want to get pregnant again this weekend? --- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Letter from black reader to ''The Ladder'', in 1957 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Betty Friedan, "The Problem That Has No Name" ==<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Rickie Solinger, politics of abortion, 1950-1970 ==<br />
I actually felt a little dumb with this week's readings. There was a type of abortion that was mentioned in multiple articles, but the one I remember off the top of my head was "Women and the Politics of Hospital Abortion Committees, 1950-1970." They mentioned 'therapeutic abortions' and either I missed where they they discussed what it is or it is one those things they figure the audience knows what they were talking about. I have no idea what that kind of abortion is, I have never heard of it until this reading. --Ashley Wilkins (feeling a little dumb right now) <br />
<br />
<br />
== Vicki Ruiz, "'Star Struck': Acculturation, Adolescence, and Mexican American Women, 1920-1950" ==</div>Efran6hihttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_10_Questions/Comments328--Week 10 Questions/Comments2008-03-27T00:46:03Z<p>Efran6hi: /* Monica Sone, “Japanese Relocation” – */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Overarching questions ==<br />
I noticed in the movie in class and in the pictures, that the women were wearing pants. I think it is mentioned in a caption on page 179 in MAW, and several other times throughout the reading. This is quite a change from the ridiculous bicyling outfits we studied earlier. Was this a case of desperate times call for desperate measures or was it more acceptable during this time period for women to dress comfortably and efficiently at work/home while doing work? ---Landon Davis<br />
<br />
One thing i noticed throughout the MAW reading was a lack of overt patriotism. The oral history "Rosie the Riveter" by Hill focuses solely on the monetary aspects she gains by working. In "Women in the Armed Forces" the letters written by Stagemen only talk of how exciting it is, and allows her to stroke her ego as she talks about getting out of the plane and surprising all the men. I am not saying what they were doing was not patriotic because it was. But it does not sound like patriotism was the first reason alot of these women chose to work. Again in MP Bethune urges FDR to let African American women work. Bethune uses the term "united patriotism" but it seems more like a means to an end (equality) rather than the end in itself. Yerger expresses my skepticism on page 373 saying something like "women use the patriotic cause of their work as a front for the financial cause." ---- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
<br />
== Debate Topics ==<br />
Debate topic: did the war economically elevate families during its duration or impoverish them? -- Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
<br />
== Fanny Christina Hill, “Rosie the Riveter” ==<br />
<br />
I really enjoyed reading this article. It was interesting how they went to the school to train and recruit women for jobs. I found it interesting how these women went through several checks upon entering the building to work each day. I can understand the ID badge checks but why would they want to check their lunch? -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
I also found this article interesting especially because Fanny Hill talks about if she didn't like the job, she left it, and she wouldn't put up with a job that she didn't like. I really enjoyed reading that about her because I think that above all else show what kind of woman she was, a strong woman who knew what she wanted. Although, I was also confused as to why they would check their lunches, did they check them on the way out as well? Was it a fear of spying that made them do that?- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
In this article, she talks about the hiring process and how there were so many more women than men. She says "Most of the men was gone, and they weren't hiring too many men unless they had a good excuse." This seems like the reverse of the pattern during the Depression. During that time, women were not hired unless they had serious economic need. Now that it is wartime, it seems as though the encouragement is for men to fight in the war, so they will not be hired unless they have an excuse to not go into war. --Katie Nelson<br />
<br />
== Marion Stegeman, “Women in the Armed Forces” ==<br />
Marion Stegeman's letters in "Women in the Armed Forces" are interesting when she talks about the time she landed at Ballinger Air Field in order to get her bearings. Didn't the Squn. Commander have anything more pressing to do? It all seems a little strange to me considering the fact that we are now living in the middle of a gas crisis. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
<br />
At the end of Marion Stegman's letters she expresses her concern to her mother about her "love" Ned and how she wants to marry him but also how she will work indefinitely. During this time when the number of women working rapidly increased, were long distance relationships even possible? Or were couples forced to go their own way for survival purposes and hope to reconnect safely at a later time? --- Rose Feguson<br />
<br />
Marion Stegeman’s letters to her mother about being a WASP really highlight both the excitement and dangers of being in the AirForce. I am sure Marion’s mother worried about her, and I would like to have read her responses… but I was wondering if the mother ever read the letters and regretted never having those types of opportunities in her lifetime? – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
I LOVED Marion's letters! The way she changed her signature to sum up the mood of the letter and just the overall love she seemed to have for being a WASP was amazing. She seems to be a perfect example of why women wanted to get involved with the military in some fashion -- they were doing the jobs men used to do and were getting excellent credit for their accomplishments and being commended for their attitudes and hard work as women in the military. I think the letter about some of her friends being shot down and her other friend breaking down and leaving are both important points as well, though. Both of those reinforce the fact that these jobs weren't meant to be romanticized. They may have been women doing these jobs, but they were just as dangerous and women did die like men would have. Just because it was a woman doing the job did not mean that they were safe from harm. But my favorite letter had to be the one where she was blown off course and had to land on a different base. The statement, "The Army cadets and instructors nearly fell out of their plane when they saw a ''girl'' taxiing by in a B.T.!" I think is a perfect summation of some of how impressive some of these women truly were. Rosie the Riveter should be proud. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
I also really enjoyed Marion Stegeman's letters in MAW. I particularly enjoyed the last letter when she discusses her relationship with Ned and also her decisions to be a WASP. I love the line "I can do what I'm told gracefully now only because -- underneath it all-- I know i don't have to." I think that this highlights the role of choice and freedom in the wartime effort. --Katie Nelson<br />
<br />
== Hariette Arnow, “Wartime Migration” – ==<br />
<br />
Harriette Arnow’s excerpt on wartime migration discusses the confusion many women felt moving during WWII. It is clear from this article that wartime for women definitely wasn’t all opportunity and smiles, women also struggled to adapt and lived lives they probably never expected to. – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
== Monica Sone, “Japanese Relocation” – ==<br />
<br />
<br />
I really enjoyed reading this one because it actually suprised me. I expected it to be a far more depressing story and while it was very sad that these families had to deal with this I also felt like it was not nearly as sad as it could have been. I found Monica Sone's mother inspiring because she seemed to look for the good in everything. Although the tent/cabin/apartment wasn't well built, she was happy that there were dandelions, because it brought happiness into the room. As well as how she reacted to the latrine being close, she didn't say oh this is gonna smell she said oh look! we won't have to walk a long ways. I found that aspect of the story very very inspiring. - Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
== Ruth Marshak, “Women of Wartime Los Alamos” ==<br />
<br />
The contrast between the concluding sentence of Ruth Marshak's "Women of Wartime Los Alamos" and the rest of the reading is interesting. She describes life as being so dreary and containing so many hardships and then ends by saying it was a great experience. Is that due to the fact that certain portions of her account were left out by the editors of the book in which her account is located? --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I had the same question that Justin remarks on above. She started off with describing the place as this horrible entity, but ends it with Los Alamos being an educational experience and that they'll never feel that connected to a town again. Are there parts left out? or does she write this article in this way so that she could throw the bit of twist at the end? -- Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I thought it was interesting to read "Women of Wartime Los Alamos" by Ruth Marshak, because it showed a less common war time experience. It sounds like the woman who was describing her experience in this selection didn’t have a family with children, were there other families that moved there with children as well. If so, were these communities complete with some kind of education system as well? She describes the social aspects but not much further. What were the women’s roles in Los Alamos if they didn’t have children and while the husbands were working in the lab? --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
== Valerie Matsumoto, “Japanese American Women during WWII” ==<br />
Matsumoto discusses “Japanese American Women during World War II” in Unequal Sisters. Part of it deals with the resettlement of some of the women from the Japanese internment camps, most of them being younger women attending college. Today, people tend to associate college educated people, and students of college age, with more liberal ideals. Was that true during this time as well? Was it easier for younger women of Japanese decent to be accepted in a college or university setting than if they were older and returning to a workforce with people of older generations? And did geography also play a role in how well or readily they were accepted? --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
<br />
Reading Matsumoto's "Japanese American Women during World War II" reminded me of a story I had to read in English class during high school. The other story said that people would destroy the houses of Japanese-Americans and take what they wanted, destroying the rest. Did this happen often? How did women deal with a destroyed home when they returned? Did families return to the homes and properties they had before the internments? Were they able to? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
The article in US on the Japanese women I thought was interesting because right after the bombing of Pearl Harbor all of the Japanese were put in camps, and the Americans saw them as a threat, therefore putting them into these camps as a way to keep a watchfull eye on them as if they were to do something or had some part in why the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. This sounds all to familiar. When 9-11 happened Americans suddenly saw all middle easterners as a threat that were in the US. Although we did not throw them into camps, I remember watching the news and how they interviewed some immagrant middle easterners and how now they were treated differently.I've often wondered if the role was reveresed and an American white or black did something horrific in another country if other races would change the way the think of us, but by saying that what do other races, ethnicities think of us? I also thought how amazing it was that the Japanese found something good out of being kept in these camps, and utilized new skills they formed once they were out and used it to their advantage.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
== Jeanne Wakatsuki Houston, Schoolgirl at Manzanar, 1940s ==<br />
<br />
In MP, I found it interesting to read about Jeanne Wakatsuki Houston whose father would not allow her to be confirmed in the Catholic church. He felt strongly that if she were confirmed she would never marry, especially a nice Japanese boy which is what he wanted. Was this the case with most girls around her age, with all religions? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
<br />
<br />
== Photograph collections at Library of Congress ==<br />
<br />
I thought the photos of women during WWII were extremely interesting and mostly promote the stereotypical female experience on the home front. Are there any images that reflect the struggles that women faced at this time? How tired they were? The moving, long hours, and household duties? – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
I too found the photos very interesting. I was curious as to accurate they are for the overall population. Most seemed to show happy women who were excited to be doing their part but what about those that struggled? None of the picture really showed any kind of real hardship. I would have liked to see a larger variety of photos. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
== Mary McLeod Bethune on black women and the war effort, 1940 ==<br />
<br />
I really liked this letter to the president. I was impressed that a black women would write to the president to encourage him to allow black women to work for the war effort. Bethune really seems to show how sincere her desire is to serve her country and wants to be given an equal shot. Did other black women write similar letters? What other ways did theses women try to find a way to serve?-- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
== Norma Yerger Queen, daycare worker in 1944 ==<br />
<br />
The second article (Mrs. Norma Yerger) she makes the statement that "Many women thoroughly enjoy working & getting away from the home."(373) I'm sure many did enjoy their jobs since some working conditions had improved but probably there were just as many who didn't like their jobs, for whatever reason. Also relating that statement to the movie we watched in class; there was one part were the women were ok with giving their job back to the man who once had the position before going off to war. How true is that? Were many simply ok with going back to being house wife anhome maker, or did they really enjoy their job enough like the article says, therefore not wanting to give up their job.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
<br />
== Women's Army Corps in North Africa and the Mediterranean, 1953 ==<br />
Did the WACs's performance in the 5th Army have any influence on how they were treated as military personnel after World War II? --Justin Mattos</div>Efran6hihttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_10_Questions/Comments328--Week 10 Questions/Comments2008-03-26T23:59:57Z<p>Efran6hi: /* Fanny Christina Hill, “Rosie the Riveter” */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Overarching questions ==<br />
I noticed in the movie in class and in the pictures, that the women were wearing pants. I think it is mentioned in a caption on page 179 in MAW, and several other times throughout the reading. This is quite a change from the ridiculous bicyling outfits we studied earlier. Was this a case of desperate times call for desperate measures or was it more acceptable during this time period for women to dress comfortably and efficiently at work/home while doing work? ---Landon Davis<br />
<br />
One thing i noticed throughout the MAW reading was a lack of overt patriotism. The oral history "Rosie the Riveter" by Hill focuses solely on the monetary aspects she gains by working. In "Women in the Armed Forces" the letters written by Stagemen only talk of how exciting it is, and allows her to stroke her ego as she talks about getting out of the plane and surprising all the men. I am not saying what they were doing was not patriotic because it was. But it does not sound like patriotism was the first reason alot of these women chose to work. Again in MP Bethune urges FDR to let African American women work. Bethune uses the term "united patriotism" but it seems more like a means to an end (equality) rather than the end in itself. Yerger expresses my skepticism on page 373 saying something like "women use the patriotic cause of their work as a front for the financial cause." ---- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
<br />
== Debate Topics ==<br />
Debate topic: did the war economically elevate families during its duration or impoverish them? -- Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
<br />
== Fanny Christina Hill, “Rosie the Riveter” ==<br />
<br />
I really enjoyed reading this article. It was interesting how they went to the school to train and recruit women for jobs. I found it interesting how these women went through several checks upon entering the building to work each day. I can understand the ID badge checks but why would they want to check their lunch? -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
I also found this article interesting especially because Fanny Hill talks about if she didn't like the job, she left it, and she wouldn't put up with a job that she didn't like. I really enjoyed reading that about her because I think that above all else show what kind of woman she was, a strong woman who knew what she wanted. Although, I was also confused as to why they would check their lunches, did they check them on the way out as well? Was it a fear of spying that made them do that?- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
== Marion Stegeman, “Women in the Armed Forces” ==<br />
Marion Stegeman's letters in "Women in the Armed Forces" are interesting when she talks about the time she landed at Ballinger Air Field in order to get her bearings. Didn't the Squn. Commander have anything more pressing to do? It all seems a little strange to me considering the fact that we are now living in the middle of a gas crisis. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
<br />
At the end of Marion Stegman's letters she expresses her concern to her mother about her "love" Ned and how she wants to marry him but also how she will work indefinitely. During this time when the number of women working rapidly increased, were long distance relationships even possible? Or were couples forced to go their own way for survival purposes and hope to reconnect safely at a later time? --- Rose Feguson<br />
<br />
Marion Stegeman’s letters to her mother about being a WASP really highlight both the excitement and dangers of being in the AirForce. I am sure Marion’s mother worried about her, and I would like to have read her responses… but I was wondering if the mother ever read the letters and regretted never having those types of opportunities in her lifetime? – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
I LOVED Marion's letters! The way she changed her signature to sum up the mood of the letter and just the overall love she seemed to have for being a WASP was amazing. She seems to be a perfect example of why women wanted to get involved with the military in some fashion -- they were doing the jobs men used to do and were getting excellent credit for their accomplishments and being commended for their attitudes and hard work as women in the military. I think the letter about some of her friends being shot down and her other friend breaking down and leaving are both important points as well, though. Both of those reinforce the fact that these jobs weren't meant to be romanticized. They may have been women doing these jobs, but they were just as dangerous and women did die like men would have. Just because it was a woman doing the job did not mean that they were safe from harm. But my favorite letter had to be the one where she was blown off course and had to land on a different base. The statement, "The Army cadets and instructors nearly fell out of their plane when they saw a ''girl'' taxiing by in a B.T.!" I think is a perfect summation of some of how impressive some of these women truly were. Rosie the Riveter should be proud. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
== Hariette Arnow, “Wartime Migration” – ==<br />
<br />
Harriette Arnow’s excerpt on wartime migration discusses the confusion many women felt moving during WWII. It is clear from this article that wartime for women definitely wasn’t all opportunity and smiles, women also struggled to adapt and lived lives they probably never expected to. – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
== Monica Sone, “Japanese Relocation” – ==<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Ruth Marshak, “Women of Wartime Los Alamos” ==<br />
<br />
The contrast between the concluding sentence of Ruth Marshak's "Women of Wartime Los Alamos" and the rest of the reading is interesting. She describes life as being so dreary and containing so many hardships and then ends by saying it was a great experience. Is that due to the fact that certain portions of her account were left out by the editors of the book in which her account is located? --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I had the same question that Justin remarks on above. She started off with describing the place as this horrible entity, but ends it with Los Alamos being an educational experience and that they'll never feel that connected to a town again. Are there parts left out? or does she write this article in this way so that she could throw the bit of twist at the end? -- Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I thought it was interesting to read "Women of Wartime Los Alamos" by Ruth Marshak, because it showed a less common war time experience. It sounds like the woman who was describing her experience in this selection didn’t have a family with children, were there other families that moved there with children as well. If so, were these communities complete with some kind of education system as well? She describes the social aspects but not much further. What were the women’s roles in Los Alamos if they didn’t have children and while the husbands were working in the lab? --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
== Valerie Matsumoto, “Japanese American Women during WWII” ==<br />
Matsumoto discusses “Japanese American Women during World War II” in Unequal Sisters. Part of it deals with the resettlement of some of the women from the Japanese internment camps, most of them being younger women attending college. Today, people tend to associate college educated people, and students of college age, with more liberal ideals. Was that true during this time as well? Was it easier for younger women of Japanese decent to be accepted in a college or university setting than if they were older and returning to a workforce with people of older generations? And did geography also play a role in how well or readily they were accepted? --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
<br />
Reading Matsumoto's "Japanese American Women during World War II" reminded me of a story I had to read in English class during high school. The other story said that people would destroy the houses of Japanese-Americans and take what they wanted, destroying the rest. Did this happen often? How did women deal with a destroyed home when they returned? Did families return to the homes and properties they had before the internments? Were they able to? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
The article in US on the Japanese women I thought was interesting because right after the bombing of Pearl Harbor all of the Japanese were put in camps, and the Americans saw them as a threat, therefore putting them into these camps as a way to keep a watchfull eye on them as if they were to do something or had some part in why the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. This sounds all to familiar. When 9-11 happened Americans suddenly saw all middle easterners as a threat that were in the US. Although we did not throw them into camps, I remember watching the news and how they interviewed some immagrant middle easterners and how now they were treated differently.I've often wondered if the role was reveresed and an American white or black did something horrific in another country if other races would change the way the think of us, but by saying that what do other races, ethnicities think of us? I also thought how amazing it was that the Japanese found something good out of being kept in these camps, and utilized new skills they formed once they were out and used it to their advantage.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
== Jeanne Wakatsuki Houston, Schoolgirl at Manzanar, 1940s ==<br />
<br />
In MP, I found it interesting to read about Jeanne Wakatsuki Houston whose father would not allow her to be confirmed in the Catholic church. He felt strongly that if she were confirmed she would never marry, especially a nice Japanese boy which is what he wanted. Was this the case with most girls around her age, with all religions? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
<br />
<br />
== Photograph collections at Library of Congress ==<br />
<br />
I thought the photos of women during WWII were extremely interesting and mostly promote the stereotypical female experience on the home front. Are there any images that reflect the struggles that women faced at this time? How tired they were? The moving, long hours, and household duties? – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
I too found the photos very interesting. I was curious as to accurate they are for the overall population. Most seemed to show happy women who were excited to be doing their part but what about those that struggled? None of the picture really showed any kind of real hardship. I would have liked to see a larger variety of photos. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
== Mary McLeod Bethune on black women and the war effort, 1940 ==<br />
<br />
I really liked this letter to the president. I was impressed that a black women would write to the president to encourage him to allow black women to work for the war effort. Bethune really seems to show how sincere her desire is to serve her country and wants to be given an equal shot. Did other black women write similar letters? What other ways did theses women try to find a way to serve?-- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
== Norma Yerger Queen, daycare worker in 1944 ==<br />
<br />
The second article (Mrs. Norma Yerger) she makes the statement that "Many women thoroughly enjoy working & getting away from the home."(373) I'm sure many did enjoy their jobs since some working conditions had improved but probably there were just as many who didn't like their jobs, for whatever reason. Also relating that statement to the movie we watched in class; there was one part were the women were ok with giving their job back to the man who once had the position before going off to war. How true is that? Were many simply ok with going back to being house wife anhome maker, or did they really enjoy their job enough like the article says, therefore not wanting to give up their job.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
<br />
== Women's Army Corps in North Africa and the Mediterranean, 1953 ==<br />
Did the WACs's performance in the 5th Army have any influence on how they were treated as military personnel after World War II? --Justin Mattos</div>Efran6hihttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_9_Questions/Comments328--Week 9 Questions/Comments2008-03-19T21:30:22Z<p>Efran6hi: /* "I Want You Women Up North to Know" by Tillie Olson */</p>
<hr />
<div>== "I Want You Women Up North to Know" by Tillie Olson ==<br />
<br />
In "I Want You Women Up North to Know" by Tillie Olson I found this line hilarious " ...she says that he prays and dreams of a another world...a heaven (which he does not know was brought to earth in 1917 in Russia, by workers like him)"...hind-sight is 20/20 right?- Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
I found this reading interesting but at the same time confusing. Tillie Olson is clearly attacking the women in the north who are buying the clothes that are being made, but its these women that are allowing the women she is writing about to have their jobs. Yes, their conditions are horrible and the pay is horrible, but thats not a reason to attack the other women I would think. I would also think that the depression, while it might have lessened in the Northern cities, was still affecting their lives, so her accusations seem to me to be unjustified.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
== Annelise Orleck, "Militant Housewives of the Depression" ==<br />
<br />
I was amazed to learn how organized and militant housewives were during the Great Depression. Prior to reading this week's reading, I didn't know people were able to actually find constructive ways of regaining a semblance of their previous way of life during the Great Depression. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I LOVED this reading! I enjoyed seeing how women reacted to some of the hardships of the depression in a more aggressive way. I found it interesting that Orleck mentions that the women who were speaking out weren't doing so because they wanted the attention but because they wanted to be able to fulfill their duties as wives and mothers, which fits into the idea of what a woman was supposed to be doing, making their efforts more acceptable in society. I had no idea that they were able to accomplish so much or that the movement of housewives was so widespread across the U.S.! These I think are definitely ones who, if I was a mother during this period, I would want my children to respect and look up to because they were fighting for something they believed so strongly in (even though I'd prefer to be something more than a housewife). -Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
== All Eleanor Roosevelt readings ==<br />
<br />
All of this week's readings about and created by Eleanor Roosevelt really confirmed history's seemingly high opinion of her. The fact that the Roosevelts' were able to constructively respond to all of their mail during the Great Depression is very admirable. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I thougth it was interesting that women actually took the time to write Eleanor Roosevelt about things that they desperately needed, like clothing and jobs for their husbands. Just thinking in today's world and if a depression happened now, I would think it pointless to write the first lady about what I desperately needed, just because I would think she for one probably would never even read the letter and two she probably wouldn't care much less help me. Yet so many women in the 1930's wrote her their depressing situations, I assume because they were just so desperate and no one else could help them so why couldn't the first lady. They probably thougtht too that Eleanor could influence her husband since he was the President to make him do something. Also article 5 and 6 in MP show that Eleanor did actually take recongnition of the problems during the depression and talked about the problems and spoke actively on many of the problems she saw.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
What I found interesting were the letters to the Roosevelt's and specifically Eleanor in both MAW and MPA. Like Michelle had said I wouldn't be writing to the first lady if there was a depression. Especially in today's society the letter would just get lost or thrown away. One of the letters did bother me a bit. I know it really shouldn't have but, the one about the little girl who wants roller blades.... to me its just so wrong. I know she is younger and doesn't understand what is going on, but it just really bugged me that she asked for roller blades when people are dieing of hunger, and are out of work and on the streets. Then there is this girl asking for roller blades because he friends are making fun of her. No matter what age you are things like that just bother me. Also wouldn't the parents maybe explain to their child that mommy and daddy are having a few problems financially? -- Amanda Taub<br />
'''(McClurken don't make fun of me to much in class, I like to be there when i am made fun of save a little for Tuesday).'''<br />
<br />
For me the most interesting letter to Eleanor Roosevelt was the second one. The woman thanked Roosevelt for her reply to the last letter, but then said she did not need charity just a loan, even sending in collateral she claimed was valuable. However, what bothers me here is not the fact that the first lady could not possibly begin to make individual loans to people, but the size of this woman's ego or pride. She claimed she gave up her rings which held the highest emotional value to her, this is not true. What holds the highest value in this woman's life is clearly her ability to save face, her pride. If she was truly desperate, and in such great need that she would ask a loan from a stranger, she should be willing to give up her greatest asset; that of her ego, and take the charity that the government has set up for her. I have noticed the same trend more subtly throughout the rest of the readings, what is causing this? Is it a few isolated cases or does this pride fit in with the overall atttidue of the day, or somehow into the middle class ideals we have talked so extensively about? --- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
== Meridel Lesueur, "Despair of Unemployed Women" ==<br />
<br />
Reading Meridel Lesueur's article really struck me. Just how starved the women were, and the endless sitting at the job bureau day after day. The description of some of their faces really made me feel a little sad. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I found this reading interesting because it showed that the middle class ideals, or what i guess could be described as middle class prejudice or maybe just denial in this case, still affected women even in this time of crisis. Where as before when the economy was good, women were not afforded the same opportunities as men (i.e. lower wages, lower glass ceilings, smaller scope of job opportunities), now in the depression women still arent afforded the same rights and opportunities as men (i.e. no flop houses, a cultural unwillingness to see women living in the parks, and charities only helping the deserving few). -- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
== Ann Marie Low's "The Dust Bowl" ==<br />
<br />
Ann Marie Low's "The Dust Bowl" was intriguing to read. Just how much dust piled up and how much they had to wash to keep their dishes, clothes, and house clean was unreal. I had always been told that there was 'a lot of dust,' but this article really put it in perspective. How did the people manage to live in it? I know that it said many babies and elderly died in it, but how did people live in it? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I really like the piece titled Dust Bowl.Finding out the things these people had to go through. The excessive cleaning that occurs before anything, all the hours put into cleaning are such wasted hours. I never really thought of it like this, all this time spent on the cleaning could have been used for finding a job or getting more food. The one thing that did give me a little relief was that Ann Marie Low, the girl writing this had time for leisure, she was able to go out to the movies, that even through this she was able to maintain some social life. Even though sometimes housekeeping did get in the way she was able to do things for her self. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
Ignoring the fact of the endless dust, life for this family seemed to be much better, as Amanda said the girl seemed to have time for leisure, and the ham, eggs, and bread seem like a feast compared to the rations of crackers described in the earlier readings of women in the cities. Was this true for the majority of rural families compared with those in the cities? Or is this a rare case? As an afterthought, I still havent decided if I would rather starve or live in all that dust, both sound unpleasant.----Landon Davis<br />
<br />
== Margaret Jarman Hagood's "The Life Cycle of a White Southern Farm Woman" ==<br />
<br />
Margaret Jarman Hagood's "The Life Cycle of a White Southern Farm Woman" was so depressing! I was reading it and toward the end I had to stop and just stare at the book. I never realized that a baby that close to birth who was so active could just... die like that. 11 days before birth! I read it allowed to my husband and our friend who was visiting and they both stared at me and asked "Why are you reading something so depressing!?!?" Does those kinds of death still happen in America today? I mean, that close to birth? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
This article bothered me a bit. Like Ashley I was shocked about the death of her baby so close to its birth but Margaret Hagood seemed to be extremely petty to me. She was annoyed because one of her children wasn't as pretty as she hoped and she just seemed annoyed that she couldn't have all the material things that she wanted. I just found her annoying because she seemed to not be upset because of the hardship of the depression but because she was worried that her daughter and that she, herself, wouldn't be viewed as pretty.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
== Genora Johnson Dollinger, "Women and Labor Militancy" ==<br />
<br />
Dollinger's essay on "Women and Labor Militancy" was interesting. I I had no idea some women took it so far and seriously in these union groups. Sure we've learned how they take a militant approuch, but the lady in this reading was beyond that. What I thought was so interesting about her was how she used her gender against the cops in order to get where and what she wanted. She knew as a women that the cops would not shoot her in the back like they would a man, and therefore marching herself right in there on these strikes helping to defend these men, as well as using a type of reverse psychology on the cops to try and get them to see their fight. Pretty smart. On top of that she is like, oh by the way I had TB while I was doing all of this. She had some guts. She had a lot of women back her up on these strikes and even though the cops did not shoot them like they may have done to men I wonder if any got arrested at least?--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
Dollinger wrote about "Women and Labor Militancy" in the 1930's. Women formed the Emergency Brigade as their form of activism, which at the time was very appreciated by the men it was helping. However, as women's roles in these positions became less necessary and demands were being met, their roles became less necessary. People quickly reverted back to their previous expectations and as it states on page 170 men began saying, "Well, you women did a wonderful job, but now your duty is back there getting those kids in school, getting the wash done, and regular meals again…" Though the women were helpful for that time, does it really show progress for women and their increasingly public roles if it can disappear as quickly as it can emerge? I think it shows how easily the situation of women can change within certain societal conditions, how fragile progress can be, and how easily it is to revert back to the default. The challenge then becomes not how to be more active and make progress at a certain time or under certain circumstances, but how to use all of these collectively to change the default. –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Carlotta Martin's "A Mexican-American Childhood during the Depression" ==<br />
<br />
In "A Mexican-American Childhood during the Depression" Carlotta Martin discusses what is like growing up in the barrio and how difficult life was during the Great Depression. She mentions that it was more common for children to be raised by their grandparents. Would this be in the sense that was it common for grandparents to live in the same households as their children and other extended family and for them to serve as we would see babysitters today? Or did the grandparents take their grandchildren, live separately, and give both parents a chance to work. Was this common within other ethnic groups or social classes as well? Or did it simply serve as an opportunity for the children to get an education as opposed to working to help their struggling families during the depression? –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
<br />
== Photo Essay ==<br />
Personally, I loved the Photo essay. I think that photographs are a really interesting way to show how things have changed from one era to the next and the pictures in this week's reading did just that. Seeing women in pants and with shorter hair on almost every girl was a neat thing to see because this had recently become a new fad. The photos are also a great way to visualize what we were talking about in class on Tuesday, including women working in men's jobs while they went off to war (like in the aviation plant photo) and joining and supporting unions (like in the auto workers' auxiliary photo). It kind of proves that all of this stuff really did happen which is beneficial when it seems kind of unreal that women wearing pants had been such a major controversy. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
== Dorothy Dunbar Bromley on Birth Control in the Depression ==<br />
It annoys me how it took an economic depression to make people realize how important birth control was. It would happen that way, people say how immoral it is until babies become an economic burden that they can't afford. I am glad, however, that they DID realize it was important though because the more children, the harsher the despression would've been. It is sad to see that the poorer people always were the ones having the most children, that is unfortunantly the way it usually is.- Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
I agree with Emely Amaya's comment on the studies regarding the high number of births among poor people during the Great Depression. I was sort of wondering and hoping that studies such as those were the reason behind the repeal of prohibitions against the dissemination of information regarding birth control by AMA doctors. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Isnt it still true today that despite the wide availability and knowledge of birth control, the families that can not afford to have a child still are the ones who end up having the most children?--Landon Davis<br />
<br />
== Lydia Mendoza recalls her career in the Depression ==<br />
I loved the Lydia Mendoza recollection. Her modesty was overwhelming, but at the same time she was able to effectively describe how tough the depression was on families, and especially on minorities. Having to play in the plaza for two nights in a row just to make up the rent for the week had to have been difficult and you can really understand why her mother was hesitant about letting her travel to go on the radio show. If I were her mother I probably would have done the same thing -- her daughter was earning her quite a bit in the plaza so why change that, right? At the same time, I think it was wonderful that the manager found her a sponsor - it's kind of romanticized really and the way a great success story should start. I also liked how, by reading Lydia's piece, you could tell that women were still trying to establish themselves alongside men in the music world (and life in general.) "It was a very pretty sight and very special because we were women and very young..." Her discussion of the plaza being filled entirely with groups of men playing their instruments just emphasizes how all cultures dealt with a gender struggle. --Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
== P’ing Yu, Racism among white CA Clubwomen, 1937 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Louise Mitchell, Denounces the “Slave Markets” where Domestics are Hired in NYC, 1940 ==</div>Efran6hihttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_9_Questions/Comments328--Week 9 Questions/Comments2008-03-19T21:26:40Z<p>Efran6hi: /* Annelise Orleck, "Militant Housewives of the Depression" */</p>
<hr />
<div>== "I Want You Women Up North to Know" by Tillie Olson ==<br />
<br />
In "I Want You Women Up North to Know" by Tillie Olson I found this line hilarious " ...she says that he prays and dreams of a another world...a heaven (which he does not know was brought to earth in 1917 in Russia, by workers like him)"...hind-sight is 20/20 right?- Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Annelise Orleck, "Militant Housewives of the Depression" ==<br />
<br />
I was amazed to learn how organized and militant housewives were during the Great Depression. Prior to reading this week's reading, I didn't know people were able to actually find constructive ways of regaining a semblance of their previous way of life during the Great Depression. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I LOVED this reading! I enjoyed seeing how women reacted to some of the hardships of the depression in a more aggressive way. I found it interesting that Orleck mentions that the women who were speaking out weren't doing so because they wanted the attention but because they wanted to be able to fulfill their duties as wives and mothers, which fits into the idea of what a woman was supposed to be doing, making their efforts more acceptable in society. I had no idea that they were able to accomplish so much or that the movement of housewives was so widespread across the U.S.! These I think are definitely ones who, if I was a mother during this period, I would want my children to respect and look up to because they were fighting for something they believed so strongly in (even though I'd prefer to be something more than a housewife). -Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
== All Eleanor Roosevelt readings ==<br />
<br />
All of this week's readings about and created by Eleanor Roosevelt really confirmed history's seemingly high opinion of her. The fact that the Roosevelts' were able to constructively respond to all of their mail during the Great Depression is very admirable. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I thougth it was interesting that women actually took the time to write Eleanor Roosevelt about things that they desperately needed, like clothing and jobs for their husbands. Just thinking in today's world and if a depression happened now, I would think it pointless to write the first lady about what I desperately needed, just because I would think she for one probably would never even read the letter and two she probably wouldn't care much less help me. Yet so many women in the 1930's wrote her their depressing situations, I assume because they were just so desperate and no one else could help them so why couldn't the first lady. They probably thougtht too that Eleanor could influence her husband since he was the President to make him do something. Also article 5 and 6 in MP show that Eleanor did actually take recongnition of the problems during the depression and talked about the problems and spoke actively on many of the problems she saw.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
What I found interesting were the letters to the Roosevelt's and specifically Eleanor in both MAW and MPA. Like Michelle had said I wouldn't be writing to the first lady if there was a depression. Especially in today's society the letter would just get lost or thrown away. One of the letters did bother me a bit. I know it really shouldn't have but, the one about the little girl who wants roller blades.... to me its just so wrong. I know she is younger and doesn't understand what is going on, but it just really bugged me that she asked for roller blades when people are dieing of hunger, and are out of work and on the streets. Then there is this girl asking for roller blades because he friends are making fun of her. No matter what age you are things like that just bother me. Also wouldn't the parents maybe explain to their child that mommy and daddy are having a few problems financially? -- Amanda Taub<br />
'''(McClurken don't make fun of me to much in class, I like to be there when i am made fun of save a little for Tuesday).'''<br />
<br />
For me the most interesting letter to Eleanor Roosevelt was the second one. The woman thanked Roosevelt for her reply to the last letter, but then said she did not need charity just a loan, even sending in collateral she claimed was valuable. However, what bothers me here is not the fact that the first lady could not possibly begin to make individual loans to people, but the size of this woman's ego or pride. She claimed she gave up her rings which held the highest emotional value to her, this is not true. What holds the highest value in this woman's life is clearly her ability to save face, her pride. If she was truly desperate, and in such great need that she would ask a loan from a stranger, she should be willing to give up her greatest asset; that of her ego, and take the charity that the government has set up for her. I have noticed the same trend more subtly throughout the rest of the readings, what is causing this? Is it a few isolated cases or does this pride fit in with the overall atttidue of the day, or somehow into the middle class ideals we have talked so extensively about? --- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
== Meridel Lesueur, "Despair of Unemployed Women" ==<br />
<br />
Reading Meridel Lesueur's article really struck me. Just how starved the women were, and the endless sitting at the job bureau day after day. The description of some of their faces really made me feel a little sad. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I found this reading interesting because it showed that the middle class ideals, or what i guess could be described as middle class prejudice or maybe just denial in this case, still affected women even in this time of crisis. Where as before when the economy was good, women were not afforded the same opportunities as men (i.e. lower wages, lower glass ceilings, smaller scope of job opportunities), now in the depression women still arent afforded the same rights and opportunities as men (i.e. no flop houses, a cultural unwillingness to see women living in the parks, and charities only helping the deserving few). -- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
== Ann Marie Low's "The Dust Bowl" ==<br />
<br />
Ann Marie Low's "The Dust Bowl" was intriguing to read. Just how much dust piled up and how much they had to wash to keep their dishes, clothes, and house clean was unreal. I had always been told that there was 'a lot of dust,' but this article really put it in perspective. How did the people manage to live in it? I know that it said many babies and elderly died in it, but how did people live in it? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I really like the piece titled Dust Bowl.Finding out the things these people had to go through. The excessive cleaning that occurs before anything, all the hours put into cleaning are such wasted hours. I never really thought of it like this, all this time spent on the cleaning could have been used for finding a job or getting more food. The one thing that did give me a little relief was that Ann Marie Low, the girl writing this had time for leisure, she was able to go out to the movies, that even through this she was able to maintain some social life. Even though sometimes housekeeping did get in the way she was able to do things for her self. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
Ignoring the fact of the endless dust, life for this family seemed to be much better, as Amanda said the girl seemed to have time for leisure, and the ham, eggs, and bread seem like a feast compared to the rations of crackers described in the earlier readings of women in the cities. Was this true for the majority of rural families compared with those in the cities? Or is this a rare case? As an afterthought, I still havent decided if I would rather starve or live in all that dust, both sound unpleasant.----Landon Davis<br />
<br />
== Margaret Jarman Hagood's "The Life Cycle of a White Southern Farm Woman" ==<br />
<br />
Margaret Jarman Hagood's "The Life Cycle of a White Southern Farm Woman" was so depressing! I was reading it and toward the end I had to stop and just stare at the book. I never realized that a baby that close to birth who was so active could just... die like that. 11 days before birth! I read it allowed to my husband and our friend who was visiting and they both stared at me and asked "Why are you reading something so depressing!?!?" Does those kinds of death still happen in America today? I mean, that close to birth? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
This article bothered me a bit. Like Ashley I was shocked about the death of her baby so close to its birth but Margaret Hagood seemed to be extremely petty to me. She was annoyed because one of her children wasn't as pretty as she hoped and she just seemed annoyed that she couldn't have all the material things that she wanted. I just found her annoying because she seemed to not be upset because of the hardship of the depression but because she was worried that her daughter and that she, herself, wouldn't be viewed as pretty.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
== Genora Johnson Dollinger, "Women and Labor Militancy" ==<br />
<br />
Dollinger's essay on "Women and Labor Militancy" was interesting. I I had no idea some women took it so far and seriously in these union groups. Sure we've learned how they take a militant approuch, but the lady in this reading was beyond that. What I thought was so interesting about her was how she used her gender against the cops in order to get where and what she wanted. She knew as a women that the cops would not shoot her in the back like they would a man, and therefore marching herself right in there on these strikes helping to defend these men, as well as using a type of reverse psychology on the cops to try and get them to see their fight. Pretty smart. On top of that she is like, oh by the way I had TB while I was doing all of this. She had some guts. She had a lot of women back her up on these strikes and even though the cops did not shoot them like they may have done to men I wonder if any got arrested at least?--Michelle M.<br />
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Dollinger wrote about "Women and Labor Militancy" in the 1930's. Women formed the Emergency Brigade as their form of activism, which at the time was very appreciated by the men it was helping. However, as women's roles in these positions became less necessary and demands were being met, their roles became less necessary. People quickly reverted back to their previous expectations and as it states on page 170 men began saying, "Well, you women did a wonderful job, but now your duty is back there getting those kids in school, getting the wash done, and regular meals again…" Though the women were helpful for that time, does it really show progress for women and their increasingly public roles if it can disappear as quickly as it can emerge? I think it shows how easily the situation of women can change within certain societal conditions, how fragile progress can be, and how easily it is to revert back to the default. The challenge then becomes not how to be more active and make progress at a certain time or under certain circumstances, but how to use all of these collectively to change the default. –Jessica Kilday<br />
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== Carlotta Martin's "A Mexican-American Childhood during the Depression" ==<br />
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In "A Mexican-American Childhood during the Depression" Carlotta Martin discusses what is like growing up in the barrio and how difficult life was during the Great Depression. She mentions that it was more common for children to be raised by their grandparents. Would this be in the sense that was it common for grandparents to live in the same households as their children and other extended family and for them to serve as we would see babysitters today? Or did the grandparents take their grandchildren, live separately, and give both parents a chance to work. Was this common within other ethnic groups or social classes as well? Or did it simply serve as an opportunity for the children to get an education as opposed to working to help their struggling families during the depression? –Jessica Kilday<br />
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== Photo Essay ==<br />
Personally, I loved the Photo essay. I think that photographs are a really interesting way to show how things have changed from one era to the next and the pictures in this week's reading did just that. Seeing women in pants and with shorter hair on almost every girl was a neat thing to see because this had recently become a new fad. The photos are also a great way to visualize what we were talking about in class on Tuesday, including women working in men's jobs while they went off to war (like in the aviation plant photo) and joining and supporting unions (like in the auto workers' auxiliary photo). It kind of proves that all of this stuff really did happen which is beneficial when it seems kind of unreal that women wearing pants had been such a major controversy. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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== Dorothy Dunbar Bromley on Birth Control in the Depression ==<br />
It annoys me how it took an economic depression to make people realize how important birth control was. It would happen that way, people say how immoral it is until babies become an economic burden that they can't afford. I am glad, however, that they DID realize it was important though because the more children, the harsher the despression would've been. It is sad to see that the poorer people always were the ones having the most children, that is unfortunantly the way it usually is.- Emely Amaya<br />
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I agree with Emely Amaya's comment on the studies regarding the high number of births among poor people during the Great Depression. I was sort of wondering and hoping that studies such as those were the reason behind the repeal of prohibitions against the dissemination of information regarding birth control by AMA doctors. --Justin Mattos<br />
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Isnt it still true today that despite the wide availability and knowledge of birth control, the families that can not afford to have a child still are the ones who end up having the most children?--Landon Davis<br />
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== Lydia Mendoza recalls her career in the Depression ==<br />
I loved the Lydia Mendoza recollection. Her modesty was overwhelming, but at the same time she was able to effectively describe how tough the depression was on families, and especially on minorities. Having to play in the plaza for two nights in a row just to make up the rent for the week had to have been difficult and you can really understand why her mother was hesitant about letting her travel to go on the radio show. If I were her mother I probably would have done the same thing -- her daughter was earning her quite a bit in the plaza so why change that, right? At the same time, I think it was wonderful that the manager found her a sponsor - it's kind of romanticized really and the way a great success story should start. I also liked how, by reading Lydia's piece, you could tell that women were still trying to establish themselves alongside men in the music world (and life in general.) "It was a very pretty sight and very special because we were women and very young..." Her discussion of the plaza being filled entirely with groups of men playing their instruments just emphasizes how all cultures dealt with a gender struggle. --Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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== P’ing Yu, Racism among white CA Clubwomen, 1937 ==<br />
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== Louise Mitchell, Denounces the “Slave Markets” where Domestics are Hired in NYC, 1940 ==</div>Efran6hihttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_9_Questions/Comments328--Week 9 Questions/Comments2008-03-19T21:17:43Z<p>Efran6hi: /* Margaret Jarman Hagood's "The Life Cycle of a White Southern Farm Woman" */</p>
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<div>== "I Want You Women Up North to Know" by Tillie Olson ==<br />
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In "I Want You Women Up North to Know" by Tillie Olson I found this line hilarious " ...she says that he prays and dreams of a another world...a heaven (which he does not know was brought to earth in 1917 in Russia, by workers like him)"...hind-sight is 20/20 right?- Emely Amaya<br />
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== Annelise Orleck, "Militant Housewives of the Depression" ==<br />
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I was amazed to learn how organized and militant housewives were during the Great Depression. Prior to reading this week's reading, I didn't know people were able to actually find constructive ways of regaining a semblance of their previous way of life during the Great Depression. --Justin Mattos<br />
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== All Eleanor Roosevelt readings ==<br />
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All of this week's readings about and created by Eleanor Roosevelt really confirmed history's seemingly high opinion of her. The fact that the Roosevelts' were able to constructively respond to all of their mail during the Great Depression is very admirable. --Justin Mattos<br />
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I thougth it was interesting that women actually took the time to write Eleanor Roosevelt about things that they desperately needed, like clothing and jobs for their husbands. Just thinking in today's world and if a depression happened now, I would think it pointless to write the first lady about what I desperately needed, just because I would think she for one probably would never even read the letter and two she probably wouldn't care much less help me. Yet so many women in the 1930's wrote her their depressing situations, I assume because they were just so desperate and no one else could help them so why couldn't the first lady. They probably thougtht too that Eleanor could influence her husband since he was the President to make him do something. Also article 5 and 6 in MP show that Eleanor did actually take recongnition of the problems during the depression and talked about the problems and spoke actively on many of the problems she saw.--Michelle M.<br />
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What I found interesting were the letters to the Roosevelt's and specifically Eleanor in both MAW and MPA. Like Michelle had said I wouldn't be writing to the first lady if there was a depression. Especially in today's society the letter would just get lost or thrown away. One of the letters did bother me a bit. I know it really shouldn't have but, the one about the little girl who wants roller blades.... to me its just so wrong. I know she is younger and doesn't understand what is going on, but it just really bugged me that she asked for roller blades when people are dieing of hunger, and are out of work and on the streets. Then there is this girl asking for roller blades because he friends are making fun of her. No matter what age you are things like that just bother me. Also wouldn't the parents maybe explain to their child that mommy and daddy are having a few problems financially? -- Amanda Taub<br />
'''(McClurken don't make fun of me to much in class, I like to be there when i am made fun of save a little for Tuesday).'''<br />
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For me the most interesting letter to Eleanor Roosevelt was the second one. The woman thanked Roosevelt for her reply to the last letter, but then said she did not need charity just a loan, even sending in collateral she claimed was valuable. However, what bothers me here is not the fact that the first lady could not possibly begin to make individual loans to people, but the size of this woman's ego or pride. She claimed she gave up her rings which held the highest emotional value to her, this is not true. What holds the highest value in this woman's life is clearly her ability to save face, her pride. If she was truly desperate, and in such great need that she would ask a loan from a stranger, she should be willing to give up her greatest asset; that of her ego, and take the charity that the government has set up for her. I have noticed the same trend more subtly throughout the rest of the readings, what is causing this? Is it a few isolated cases or does this pride fit in with the overall atttidue of the day, or somehow into the middle class ideals we have talked so extensively about? --- Landon Davis<br />
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== Meridel Lesueur, "Despair of Unemployed Women" ==<br />
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Reading Meridel Lesueur's article really struck me. Just how starved the women were, and the endless sitting at the job bureau day after day. The description of some of their faces really made me feel a little sad. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I found this reading interesting because it showed that the middle class ideals, or what i guess could be described as middle class prejudice or maybe just denial in this case, still affected women even in this time of crisis. Where as before when the economy was good, women were not afforded the same opportunities as men (i.e. lower wages, lower glass ceilings, smaller scope of job opportunities), now in the depression women still arent afforded the same rights and opportunities as men (i.e. no flop houses, a cultural unwillingness to see women living in the parks, and charities only helping the deserving few). -- Landon Davis<br />
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== Ann Marie Low's "The Dust Bowl" ==<br />
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Ann Marie Low's "The Dust Bowl" was intriguing to read. Just how much dust piled up and how much they had to wash to keep their dishes, clothes, and house clean was unreal. I had always been told that there was 'a lot of dust,' but this article really put it in perspective. How did the people manage to live in it? I know that it said many babies and elderly died in it, but how did people live in it? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I really like the piece titled Dust Bowl.Finding out the things these people had to go through. The excessive cleaning that occurs before anything, all the hours put into cleaning are such wasted hours. I never really thought of it like this, all this time spent on the cleaning could have been used for finding a job or getting more food. The one thing that did give me a little relief was that Ann Marie Low, the girl writing this had time for leisure, she was able to go out to the movies, that even through this she was able to maintain some social life. Even though sometimes housekeeping did get in the way she was able to do things for her self. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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Ignoring the fact of the endless dust, life for this family seemed to be much better, as Amanda said the girl seemed to have time for leisure, and the ham, eggs, and bread seem like a feast compared to the rations of crackers described in the earlier readings of women in the cities. Was this true for the majority of rural families compared with those in the cities? Or is this a rare case? As an afterthought, I still havent decided if I would rather starve or live in all that dust, both sound unpleasant.----Landon Davis<br />
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== Margaret Jarman Hagood's "The Life Cycle of a White Southern Farm Woman" ==<br />
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Margaret Jarman Hagood's "The Life Cycle of a White Southern Farm Woman" was so depressing! I was reading it and toward the end I had to stop and just stare at the book. I never realized that a baby that close to birth who was so active could just... die like that. 11 days before birth! I read it allowed to my husband and our friend who was visiting and they both stared at me and asked "Why are you reading something so depressing!?!?" Does those kinds of death still happen in America today? I mean, that close to birth? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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This article bothered me a bit. Like Ashley I was shocked about the death of her baby so close to its birth but Margaret Hagood seemed to be extremely petty to me. She was annoyed because one of her children wasn't as pretty as she hoped and she just seemed annoyed that she couldn't have all the material things that she wanted. I just found her annoying because she seemed to not be upset because of the hardship of the depression but because she was worried that her daughter and that she, herself, wouldn't be viewed as pretty.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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== Genora Johnson Dollinger, "Women and Labor Militancy" ==<br />
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Dollinger's essay on "Women and Labor Militancy" was interesting. I I had no idea some women took it so far and seriously in these union groups. Sure we've learned how they take a militant approuch, but the lady in this reading was beyond that. What I thought was so interesting about her was how she used her gender against the cops in order to get where and what she wanted. She knew as a women that the cops would not shoot her in the back like they would a man, and therefore marching herself right in there on these strikes helping to defend these men, as well as using a type of reverse psychology on the cops to try and get them to see their fight. Pretty smart. On top of that she is like, oh by the way I had TB while I was doing all of this. She had some guts. She had a lot of women back her up on these strikes and even though the cops did not shoot them like they may have done to men I wonder if any got arrested at least?--Michelle M.<br />
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Dollinger wrote about "Women and Labor Militancy" in the 1930's. Women formed the Emergency Brigade as their form of activism, which at the time was very appreciated by the men it was helping. However, as women's roles in these positions became less necessary and demands were being met, their roles became less necessary. People quickly reverted back to their previous expectations and as it states on page 170 men began saying, "Well, you women did a wonderful job, but now your duty is back there getting those kids in school, getting the wash done, and regular meals again…" Though the women were helpful for that time, does it really show progress for women and their increasingly public roles if it can disappear as quickly as it can emerge? I think it shows how easily the situation of women can change within certain societal conditions, how fragile progress can be, and how easily it is to revert back to the default. The challenge then becomes not how to be more active and make progress at a certain time or under certain circumstances, but how to use all of these collectively to change the default. –Jessica Kilday<br />
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== Carlotta Martin's "A Mexican-American Childhood during the Depression" ==<br />
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In "A Mexican-American Childhood during the Depression" Carlotta Martin discusses what is like growing up in the barrio and how difficult life was during the Great Depression. She mentions that it was more common for children to be raised by their grandparents. Would this be in the sense that was it common for grandparents to live in the same households as their children and other extended family and for them to serve as we would see babysitters today? Or did the grandparents take their grandchildren, live separately, and give both parents a chance to work. Was this common within other ethnic groups or social classes as well? Or did it simply serve as an opportunity for the children to get an education as opposed to working to help their struggling families during the depression? –Jessica Kilday<br />
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== Photo Essay ==<br />
Personally, I loved the Photo essay. I think that photographs are a really interesting way to show how things have changed from one era to the next and the pictures in this week's reading did just that. Seeing women in pants and with shorter hair on almost every girl was a neat thing to see because this had recently become a new fad. The photos are also a great way to visualize what we were talking about in class on Tuesday, including women working in men's jobs while they went off to war (like in the aviation plant photo) and joining and supporting unions (like in the auto workers' auxiliary photo). It kind of proves that all of this stuff really did happen which is beneficial when it seems kind of unreal that women wearing pants had been such a major controversy. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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== Dorothy Dunbar Bromley on Birth Control in the Depression ==<br />
It annoys me how it took an economic depression to make people realize how important birth control was. It would happen that way, people say how immoral it is until babies become an economic burden that they can't afford. I am glad, however, that they DID realize it was important though because the more children, the harsher the despression would've been. It is sad to see that the poorer people always were the ones having the most children, that is unfortunantly the way it usually is.- Emely Amaya<br />
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I agree with Emely Amaya's comment on the studies regarding the high number of births among poor people during the Great Depression. I was sort of wondering and hoping that studies such as those were the reason behind the repeal of prohibitions against the dissemination of information regarding birth control by AMA doctors. --Justin Mattos<br />
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Isnt it still true today that despite the wide availability and knowledge of birth control, the families that can not afford to have a child still are the ones who end up having the most children?--Landon Davis<br />
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== Lydia Mendoza recalls her career in the Depression ==<br />
I loved the Lydia Mendoza recollection. Her modesty was overwhelming, but at the same time she was able to effectively describe how tough the depression was on families, and especially on minorities. Having to play in the plaza for two nights in a row just to make up the rent for the week had to have been difficult and you can really understand why her mother was hesitant about letting her travel to go on the radio show. If I were her mother I probably would have done the same thing -- her daughter was earning her quite a bit in the plaza so why change that, right? At the same time, I think it was wonderful that the manager found her a sponsor - it's kind of romanticized really and the way a great success story should start. I also liked how, by reading Lydia's piece, you could tell that women were still trying to establish themselves alongside men in the music world (and life in general.) "It was a very pretty sight and very special because we were women and very young..." Her discussion of the plaza being filled entirely with groups of men playing their instruments just emphasizes how all cultures dealt with a gender struggle. --Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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== P’ing Yu, Racism among white CA Clubwomen, 1937 ==<br />
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== Louise Mitchell, Denounces the “Slave Markets” where Domestics are Hired in NYC, 1940 ==</div>Efran6hihttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_8_Questions/Comments328--Week 8 Questions/Comments2008-03-12T21:15:38Z<p>Efran6hi: </p>
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<div>THE ONLINE READING IS LOCATED HERE: [http://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/docs/MP-Reading.pdf Week 8 Reading]<br />
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In this week's reading of "'But We Would Never Talk about it': The Structures of Lesbian Discretion in South Dakota, 1928-1933" by Elizabeth Lapovsky Kennedy, the idea that struck me the deepest was the thought that the now extinct sensibility that existed during the first half of the twentieth century actually helped a minority people. Having unofficial social mores and a respect for others' privacy allowed for lesbians who were white to live productive lives as long as they lived according to same social standards that ruled the lives of heterosexual women. This custom appears to have created a type of equality that may or may not exist today. Given the fact that the majority of the things that many homosexual couples are fighting for today did not yet exist for heterosexual couples, it would seem as if during this point in time, lesbianism was treated as an extreme eccentricity that should be controlled out of respect for one's neighbors. --Justin Mattos<br />
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I did not find it as surprising that is was so possible for Julia Boyer Reinstein's family to accept her lesbianism. While I am sure that her mother and father would have preferred to have a son-in-law, that the father enjoyed not having to entertain potential male suitors and having someone who would cover up his extramaterial affairs should not be overlooked. In a certain sense, I think what made her lesbianism easier to accept than if Julia Boyer Reinstein had been a homosexual male was that the society in which she lived was patriarchal and thus the desires of the father won out over the desires of the mother, and her father really did not care whether she enjoyed a heterosexual marriage or not. --Justin Mattos<br />
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So then does the tying of sexuality with politics and identity mischaracterize people and their politics, concerns, and histories? --Justin Mattos<br />
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After reading "But we would never talk about it" I didn't feel surprised about any of it. Being a lesbian back then was not defined as it was today. It was common for women to confide in each other and sleep in the same bed and have an intimate relationship. However, a lot of people did not know what was really going on behind closed doors, which I feel is a reason why no one every talked about it. The only thing that did surprise me was that her parents were ok with it all. There is a passage that talks about how her mother would make a comment about how she wasn't with this one boy, but in the end her being a lesbian didn't bother her, she was actually very polite to Dorothy. In Julia's father's case, it didn't surprise me so much after there were comments made that he could have all of her attention. He didn't need to entertain possible son - in- laws, however I also feel like he used Julia because she was gay. By giving Julia his consent and accepting her it keep their relationship close, however he might of done this because it covered up all of his affairs. My question was did Julia ever see her father and her relationship this way, or was she just happy that her father accepted her? -- Amanda Taub<br />
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The second part that I thought was the most interesting was her encounter with Amelia Earhart. It shows how cautious girls were towards other girls. I feel that these women were so unsure about themselves that they really had to question others more. Especially since this was one of her earlier encounters, it shows that in the beginning Julia was very timid about her sexuality. Since she was shy about her self, she wasn't going to go out and put the moves on every girl, especially not Earhart. But as she gets older her "sense" gets stronger, through all the trips she took with her father. She could tell which woman was the "odd" one of the bunch, I also feel that over the years other women started to feel a little more comfortable with being gay and showing it a little more. Which made it easier for women like Julia to point out the "odd" girl. My only question was were there women like today who went through these phases of lesbians and then just turned straight and marry? Or was it because society was starting to see lesbians for what they were and women felt pressured to become straight live the way society wants them to? -- Amanda Taub<br />
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Kennedy uses the case of Julia to discuss the discretion of lesbianism in the early 1900’s. There were, however, many other aspects to Julia’s identity than just her sexuality. This is pointed on page 415, when Kennedy states “she came into her womanhood as a lesbian, as a college student, as the daughter of a father who was prominent citizen and business owner, and as the daughter of a mother who was strongly independent yet part of an established small-town protestant family.” Given this, the discretion of Julia’s sexuality may have been because it would have been a trait that overshadowed the others; it may have become her only identifying factor in the public eye as opposed to just one of many. Could there have been any other traits during this time that people felt the need to cover-up, other than sexuality? And how true is this still today? --Jessica Kilday<br />
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Lesbianism wasn’t something that could be discriminated against publicly; this is in contrast to other aspects of one’s identity such as gender or race, which could once have been discriminated against legally. Yet Julia still feared that if she was obvious about how she felt then she would not be able to receive all the benefits and privileges of her class. Which would be harder to deal with, discrimination by law or discrimination by society? --Jessica Kilday<br />
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All I have to say is, wow. I know there are still a lot of problems with accepting lesbianism today, but to read that a father accepted it and used it to his advantage was incredibly. I feel that even lesbianism today is kept quite because most people seem not to always accept it, however not as much as the 1920s and 1930s. There are gay rights movements and things like ‘gay day’ at theme or amusement parks, which to me shouts “we accept all people of sexual preferences.” That could also just be a money marketing scam… However, I really did enjoy this piece by Elizabeth Kennedy because going through the public school system I had friends that I knew were lesbians, but we never talked about it, not even when they would have a break up with their girlfriend. If there was a break-up we would take the friend for ice-cream or something, but nothing was ever said about the situation. –Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I pity the most definitely unsatisfied woman married to that Dr. Carlton C. Frederick! His unqualified theories on woman were as sexist as Freud's of that same time period (the grotesque double standard was very popular then)! This article compared to the survey's of Dr. Mosher were so starkly different, I wonder what kind of effect the controversy had over the general population-and more importantly over the general female population? His assertive views on Nymphomaniacs has actually made me question the sexism based around that "disorder"-I would be interested in further study of the history of Nymphomania as recognized by physicians and society. Also in consideration of mental disorders: this article is part of the great slew of material that prolonged the accepted myth that homosexuality is a mental illness well into the early 70s in American. I don't know how doctors could do it back then- to use unsubstantiated views as evidence for such sexist publications! ~~Jackie Reed<br />
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I agree with Jackie that Dr. Frederick was a wack job! Where on earth did he get his information from. It really makes you wonder how many doctors in those days actually did any kind of research or if they were simply stuck on a certain view of women and because they were a doctor they felt that gave them authority and validation to what their theory on the female and sex was.--Michelle M.<br />
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I agree with Jackie about the Dr. Frederick essay. My question is: Was Frederick saying that nymphomania in women, was when they acheived the same level of sexuality and deisre that men had? Or was it on some completely different level? Also I found it disturbing, and almost funny how he so easily bridged a gap between masturbation and pedophelia.----Landon Davis<br />
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There were several parts of the reading off the wiki that fit in perfectly with the companionate marriage we discussed in class today. Most noticeably the second passage from extracts from the Mosher Survey, respondent 10 was qouted as "I think for man and woman married from love, it may be used temperately, as one of the highest manifestations of love." This passage exemplifies the break from the repressive victorian era ideals of marriage, that women should not enjoy sex, and that it should be used primarily for reproduction. Another example was the second letter to Sanger, the man was asking for details of contraception, not for (entirely) selfish reasons, he seemed genuinely concerned about his wife's welfare and happiness. ----Landon Davis<br />
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After reading the online reading something that stuck out to me the most was the letters to Margaret Sanger. I found it surprising that men and women were actually staying away from their spouses because they don't want anymore children. Because birth control was not offered to women, and especially women who lived in rural areas, it was ruining marriages. In letter number 4 the wife was actually thinking about their financial stability knowing they can not have another child and all the husband wants is sex not really caring about the situation. This whole concept of the companion family caused higher expectations, however in these letters the women and or men mention that they love their spouse dearly but because they don't want to reproduce tears them apart. If there was such a big problem with divorce rates increasing and infidelity then why wasn't this taken into account? Is it because people are just to afraid to talk about sex? -- Amanda Taub<br />
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When reading the letters to Margaret Sanger about birth control I kind of asked the same question Amanda did on why wasn't it taken into account that divorce rates incresasing was really possibly due to infidelity which was essentially caused by fear of having sex in result of having children. Therefore birth control would really possibly save marriage, however I don't think it is because people were afraid to talk about sex even though it wasn't talked about but, instead maybe what they really wanted was to be able to have sex freely without the worry of getting pregnant, and birth control would allow a married couple to have control over how many children they wanted. Maybe they thought, this thought was a scary or selfish thing to even think or want becasue for so long people just had children, but because the world was changing there was just no need for families with 7 to 10 children anymore.--Michelle M. <br />
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I agree with Landon and also saw many parallels between the discussion of the companionate family in class and also in society today. Blanchard and Manasses' discussion of courtship points out that men and women were able to "become intimately acquainted" before marriage and discuss openly and equally about their opinions of married life before they were married. The notion that men and women must be compatible personalities, working together as partners in all areas demonstrates the new ideal. Yet there are still hidden facets of Victorian ideals engrained into the companionate marriage. The "lurking fear that she may seem too passionate, and her husband may suspect what still seems to her dreadful secret, she cannot give herself up to free enjoyment of his love," still alludes to the idea that women are not supposed to enjoy sex and when they do there is something morally wrong with them. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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I also saw a parallel between Blanchard and Manasses' discussion and society's ideals today. Sex education, and the lack thereof, is still a problem. Many schools still strictly follow an abstinence only program and students are left uneducated about where to go for family planning options. In many cases women still grow up experiencing "conditioned responses toward sex" in which parents have punished any form of sexual expression. The experiences of women described in this reading (anxiety, embarressment, guilt) caused by society's ideals still strongly exist. Their discussion was a liberal view and today this view would be considered conservative but how much have the ideals of women's sexuality changed from the early 20th century? -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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I was surprised after reading the "Extracts from the Mosher Survey, 1892-1913" because I did not realize that it seemed that most women did not have knowledge of sexual physiology before marriage. I'm guessing most of the men knew though. I think the 'birds and the bees' was mostly explained by my teachers when I was in 4th or 5th grade, or around age 9 or 10. Times have changed considerably, but I wonder how many U.S. females are raised in such a way still that they do not know much about it. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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So, as everyone knows, I hate the idea of using Lysol as a means of contraception. As a result, reading the one interview with Respondent 44 made me cringe. Bichloride? Really? I'm assuming they used the mercury compound since I saw another interviewee discuss it and I almost fell over. That stuff is dangerous so it astounded me that it had "no effect" as she stated. It never ceases to amaze me the lengths to which people would go to prevent pregnancies in the early 20th century. It was interesting to read all of the interviews though and compare and contrast them. The differences were slight because the years were relatively close together, but the shifts in belief about the purposes of intercourse emphasized that shift from a "sex is for male pleasure and reproduction only" world to a "women can like it too" sort of atmosphere. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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After reading the respondents from Mosher I was surprised to find out how many women really knew nothing about sex once they were married. I knew that it was somthing not talked about, but to be a women just married and not knowing what sex even was had to be scary and maybe even confusing to them. Did the husbands know though? What I also thought was interesting about their resoponses was that those who did try some kind of means to prevent pregnancy, when asked if their health was effected they all said no. The things they used didn't sound like very safe things, but what I've come to realize by these readings this week is that women seemed to be desperate for anything to have some kind of control over conception, but were the men just as desperate in hopes that something would emerge to prevent pregnancy once there were so many children already in the family too?--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
I flat out laughed when I read the beginning of "The Manifestations of Nymphomania." What I thought was so interesting about this reading, besides the ideology that if women liked sex as much as men the world would be one giant brothel, was that this was documented at the turn of the century. I think it's a good example of the mentality some conservatives were trying to hold on to as the "new woman" burst onto the scene. I just didn't really understand his distinction between "insane" and the "not insane." Were the insane and mildly insane nymphomaniacs the ones that went into bars and started flirting with men, etc? -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
The letters to Margaret Sanger about the need for birth control were extremely interesting. I thought it was strange how women assumed they would just magically know how to not have children once they were married. Also, I wondered if married couples not having sex so as to not have any more children led to affairs outside the marriage. Clearly, there was no birth control for any type of sexual relationship but I get the feeling that these people writing in thought that extramarital affairs couldn’t result in children. What did prostitutes do for birth control? – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
Malcom Bissell’s essay on birth control discusses how small group meetings in people’s home might be the most effect way of disseminating birth control information. I think this is very telling of society’s views at the time. Clearly, birth control was wanted and necessary, but there was such a social stigma and controversy over using it that people didn’t want to be publicly seen as seeking out information. – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
The discussion of “modern marriage” was really interesting to me. I find it horrifying that ideals of companionship didn’t exist before this time. Even in this essay, there is a part where Phyllis Blanchard and Carolyn Manassas question what a companion marriage may mean for the future once sexual desire fades. I just found it interesting that eve they are not true believers in companionship. – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
I really enjoyed reading "But We Would Never Talk About It." However, I was not at all surprised about the fact that these women did not talk about their sexual preferences and experiences with other women or their parents, mostly because I still have the impression that while during this time period it was becoming more acceptable for sex to be discusses it still wasn't really done. And since sex in general wasn't talked about, why would a varying preference be talked about? Also while I found it amazing that her mother and father supported her and were ok with her sexual choice, I was also disgusted by the fact the father would use that to his advantage so he could continue his extramarital affairs! I do have to wonder, was she really ok with covering for her dad in these instances, or did she have any resentment towards him for using her in this way and if her nonchalant attitude towards it was because it was simply how she dealt with those feelings?- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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I also found the readings from the Wiki very interesting! I was slightly shocked at some of the details in the "Extracts from the Mosher survey: 1892-1913". Mostly I was surprised at how long some of these couples waited before they had sex after marrying! There was one woman who said that their first time having sex was 5 months after they were married! I found this surprising because most married couples are simply expected to do that on their wedding night. And like Kelly I was shocked at the items they used to attempt to control pregnancies and then claimed that they had no physical affect on them when it should have.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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I found Carlton C. Fredericks article amusing at the same time it was irritating. It was amusing to me because of the way he approached the subject yet irritating because of its sexism. He seemed to imply that only insane or mildly insane women would likely turn to Nymphomania. I also find it interesting that he said women turned to other women to achieve satisfaction, wouldn't it then follow the logical path of his thought that to rectify this husbands should focus on more than just their sexual pleasure?(I'm not saying I agree with his thought process). Also, is he saying that men can't have nymphomania and that its an aliment strictly suffered by women?- Elizabeth Frank</div>Efran6hihttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_8_Questions/Comments328--Week 8 Questions/Comments2008-03-12T21:07:22Z<p>Efran6hi: </p>
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<div>THE ONLINE READING IS LOCATED HERE: [http://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/docs/MP-Reading.pdf Week 8 Reading]<br />
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In this week's reading of "'But We Would Never Talk about it': The Structures of Lesbian Discretion in South Dakota, 1928-1933" by Elizabeth Lapovsky Kennedy, the idea that struck me the deepest was the thought that the now extinct sensibility that existed during the first half of the twentieth century actually helped a minority people. Having unofficial social mores and a respect for others' privacy allowed for lesbians who were white to live productive lives as long as they lived according to same social standards that ruled the lives of heterosexual women. This custom appears to have created a type of equality that may or may not exist today. Given the fact that the majority of the things that many homosexual couples are fighting for today did not yet exist for heterosexual couples, it would seem as if during this point in time, lesbianism was treated as an extreme eccentricity that should be controlled out of respect for one's neighbors. --Justin Mattos<br />
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I did not find it as surprising that is was so possible for Julia Boyer Reinstein's family to accept her lesbianism. While I am sure that her mother and father would have preferred to have a son-in-law, that the father enjoyed not having to entertain potential male suitors and having someone who would cover up his extramaterial affairs should not be overlooked. In a certain sense, I think what made her lesbianism easier to accept than if Julia Boyer Reinstein had been a homosexual male was that the society in which she lived was patriarchal and thus the desires of the father won out over the desires of the mother, and her father really did not care whether she enjoyed a heterosexual marriage or not. --Justin Mattos<br />
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So then does the tying of sexuality with politics and identity mischaracterize people and their politics, concerns, and histories? --Justin Mattos<br />
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After reading "But we would never talk about it" I didn't feel surprised about any of it. Being a lesbian back then was not defined as it was today. It was common for women to confide in each other and sleep in the same bed and have an intimate relationship. However, a lot of people did not know what was really going on behind closed doors, which I feel is a reason why no one every talked about it. The only thing that did surprise me was that her parents were ok with it all. There is a passage that talks about how her mother would make a comment about how she wasn't with this one boy, but in the end her being a lesbian didn't bother her, she was actually very polite to Dorothy. In Julia's father's case, it didn't surprise me so much after there were comments made that he could have all of her attention. He didn't need to entertain possible son - in- laws, however I also feel like he used Julia because she was gay. By giving Julia his consent and accepting her it keep their relationship close, however he might of done this because it covered up all of his affairs. My question was did Julia ever see her father and her relationship this way, or was she just happy that her father accepted her? -- Amanda Taub<br />
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The second part that I thought was the most interesting was her encounter with Amelia Earhart. It shows how cautious girls were towards other girls. I feel that these women were so unsure about themselves that they really had to question others more. Especially since this was one of her earlier encounters, it shows that in the beginning Julia was very timid about her sexuality. Since she was shy about her self, she wasn't going to go out and put the moves on every girl, especially not Earhart. But as she gets older her "sense" gets stronger, through all the trips she took with her father. She could tell which woman was the "odd" one of the bunch, I also feel that over the years other women started to feel a little more comfortable with being gay and showing it a little more. Which made it easier for women like Julia to point out the "odd" girl. My only question was were there women like today who went through these phases of lesbians and then just turned straight and marry? Or was it because society was starting to see lesbians for what they were and women felt pressured to become straight live the way society wants them to? -- Amanda Taub<br />
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Kennedy uses the case of Julia to discuss the discretion of lesbianism in the early 1900’s. There were, however, many other aspects to Julia’s identity than just her sexuality. This is pointed on page 415, when Kennedy states “she came into her womanhood as a lesbian, as a college student, as the daughter of a father who was prominent citizen and business owner, and as the daughter of a mother who was strongly independent yet part of an established small-town protestant family.” Given this, the discretion of Julia’s sexuality may have been because it would have been a trait that overshadowed the others; it may have become her only identifying factor in the public eye as opposed to just one of many. Could there have been any other traits during this time that people felt the need to cover-up, other than sexuality? And how true is this still today? --Jessica Kilday<br />
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Lesbianism wasn’t something that could be discriminated against publicly; this is in contrast to other aspects of one’s identity such as gender or race, which could once have been discriminated against legally. Yet Julia still feared that if she was obvious about how she felt then she would not be able to receive all the benefits and privileges of her class. Which would be harder to deal with, discrimination by law or discrimination by society? --Jessica Kilday<br />
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All I have to say is, wow. I know there are still a lot of problems with accepting lesbianism today, but to read that a father accepted it and used it to his advantage was incredibly. I feel that even lesbianism today is kept quite because most people seem not to always accept it, however not as much as the 1920s and 1930s. There are gay rights movements and things like ‘gay day’ at theme or amusement parks, which to me shouts “we accept all people of sexual preferences.” That could also just be a money marketing scam… However, I really did enjoy this piece by Elizabeth Kennedy because going through the public school system I had friends that I knew were lesbians, but we never talked about it, not even when they would have a break up with their girlfriend. If there was a break-up we would take the friend for ice-cream or something, but nothing was ever said about the situation. –Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I pity the most definitely unsatisfied woman married to that Dr. Carlton C. Frederick! His unqualified theories on woman were as sexist as Freud's of that same time period (the grotesque double standard was very popular then)! This article compared to the survey's of Dr. Mosher were so starkly different, I wonder what kind of effect the controversy had over the general population-and more importantly over the general female population? His assertive views on Nymphomaniacs has actually made me question the sexism based around that "disorder"-I would be interested in further study of the history of Nymphomania as recognized by physicians and society. Also in consideration of mental disorders: this article is part of the great slew of material that prolonged the accepted myth that homosexuality is a mental illness well into the early 70s in American. I don't know how doctors could do it back then- to use unsubstantiated views as evidence for such sexist publications! ~~Jackie Reed<br />
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I agree with Jackie that Dr. Frederick was a wack job! Where on earth did he get his information from. It really makes you wonder how many doctors in those days actually did any kind of research or if they were simply stuck on a certain view of women and because they were a doctor they felt that gave them authority and validation to what their theory on the female and sex was.--Michelle M.<br />
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I agree with Jackie about the Dr. Frederick essay. My question is: Was Frederick saying that nymphomania in women, was when they acheived the same level of sexuality and deisre that men had? Or was it on some completely different level? Also I found it disturbing, and almost funny how he so easily bridged a gap between masturbation and pedophelia.----Landon Davis<br />
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There were several parts of the reading off the wiki that fit in perfectly with the companionate marriage we discussed in class today. Most noticeably the second passage from extracts from the Mosher Survey, respondent 10 was qouted as "I think for man and woman married from love, it may be used temperately, as one of the highest manifestations of love." This passage exemplifies the break from the repressive victorian era ideals of marriage, that women should not enjoy sex, and that it should be used primarily for reproduction. Another example was the second letter to Sanger, the man was asking for details of contraception, not for (entirely) selfish reasons, he seemed genuinely concerned about his wife's welfare and happiness. ----Landon Davis<br />
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After reading the online reading something that stuck out to me the most was the letters to Margaret Sanger. I found it surprising that men and women were actually staying away from their spouses because they don't want anymore children. Because birth control was not offered to women, and especially women who lived in rural areas, it was ruining marriages. In letter number 4 the wife was actually thinking about their financial stability knowing they can not have another child and all the husband wants is sex not really caring about the situation. This whole concept of the companion family caused higher expectations, however in these letters the women and or men mention that they love their spouse dearly but because they don't want to reproduce tears them apart. If there was such a big problem with divorce rates increasing and infidelity then why wasn't this taken into account? Is it because people are just to afraid to talk about sex? -- Amanda Taub<br />
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When reading the letters to Margaret Sanger about birth control I kind of asked the same question Amanda did on why wasn't it taken into account that divorce rates incresasing was really possibly due to infidelity which was essentially caused by fear of having sex in result of having children. Therefore birth control would really possibly save marriage, however I don't think it is because people were afraid to talk about sex even though it wasn't talked about but, instead maybe what they really wanted was to be able to have sex freely without the worry of getting pregnant, and birth control would allow a married couple to have control over how many children they wanted. Maybe they thought, this thought was a scary or selfish thing to even think or want becasue for so long people just had children, but because the world was changing there was just no need for families with 7 to 10 children anymore.--Michelle M. <br />
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I agree with Landon and also saw many parallels between the discussion of the companionate family in class and also in society today. Blanchard and Manasses' discussion of courtship points out that men and women were able to "become intimately acquainted" before marriage and discuss openly and equally about their opinions of married life before they were married. The notion that men and women must be compatible personalities, working together as partners in all areas demonstrates the new ideal. Yet there are still hidden facets of Victorian ideals engrained into the companionate marriage. The "lurking fear that she may seem too passionate, and her husband may suspect what still seems to her dreadful secret, she cannot give herself up to free enjoyment of his love," still alludes to the idea that women are not supposed to enjoy sex and when they do there is something morally wrong with them. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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I also saw a parallel between Blanchard and Manasses' discussion and society's ideals today. Sex education, and the lack thereof, is still a problem. Many schools still strictly follow an abstinence only program and students are left uneducated about where to go for family planning options. In many cases women still grow up experiencing "conditioned responses toward sex" in which parents have punished any form of sexual expression. The experiences of women described in this reading (anxiety, embarressment, guilt) caused by society's ideals still strongly exist. Their discussion was a liberal view and today this view would be considered conservative but how much have the ideals of women's sexuality changed from the early 20th century? -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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I was surprised after reading the "Extracts from the Mosher Survey, 1892-1913" because I did not realize that it seemed that most women did not have knowledge of sexual physiology before marriage. I'm guessing most of the men knew though. I think the 'birds and the bees' was mostly explained by my teachers when I was in 4th or 5th grade, or around age 9 or 10. Times have changed considerably, but I wonder how many U.S. females are raised in such a way still that they do not know much about it. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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So, as everyone knows, I hate the idea of using Lysol as a means of contraception. As a result, reading the one interview with Respondent 44 made me cringe. Bichloride? Really? I'm assuming they used the mercury compound since I saw another interviewee discuss it and I almost fell over. That stuff is dangerous so it astounded me that it had "no effect" as she stated. It never ceases to amaze me the lengths to which people would go to prevent pregnancies in the early 20th century. It was interesting to read all of the interviews though and compare and contrast them. The differences were slight because the years were relatively close together, but the shifts in belief about the purposes of intercourse emphasized that shift from a "sex is for male pleasure and reproduction only" world to a "women can like it too" sort of atmosphere. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
After reading the respondents from Mosher I was surprised to find out how many women really knew nothing about sex once they were married. I knew that it was somthing not talked about, but to be a women just married and not knowing what sex even was had to be scary and maybe even confusing to them. Did the husbands know though? What I also thought was interesting about their resoponses was that those who did try some kind of means to prevent pregnancy, when asked if their health was effected they all said no. The things they used didn't sound like very safe things, but what I've come to realize by these readings this week is that women seemed to be desperate for anything to have some kind of control over conception, but were the men just as desperate in hopes that something would emerge to prevent pregnancy once there were so many children already in the family too?--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
I flat out laughed when I read the beginning of "The Manifestations of Nymphomania." What I thought was so interesting about this reading, besides the ideology that if women liked sex as much as men the world would be one giant brothel, was that this was documented at the turn of the century. I think it's a good example of the mentality some conservatives were trying to hold on to as the "new woman" burst onto the scene. I just didn't really understand his distinction between "insane" and the "not insane." Were the insane and mildly insane nymphomaniacs the ones that went into bars and started flirting with men, etc? -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
The letters to Margaret Sanger about the need for birth control were extremely interesting. I thought it was strange how women assumed they would just magically know how to not have children once they were married. Also, I wondered if married couples not having sex so as to not have any more children led to affairs outside the marriage. Clearly, there was no birth control for any type of sexual relationship but I get the feeling that these people writing in thought that extramarital affairs couldn’t result in children. What did prostitutes do for birth control? – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
Malcom Bissell’s essay on birth control discusses how small group meetings in people’s home might be the most effect way of disseminating birth control information. I think this is very telling of society’s views at the time. Clearly, birth control was wanted and necessary, but there was such a social stigma and controversy over using it that people didn’t want to be publicly seen as seeking out information. – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
The discussion of “modern marriage” was really interesting to me. I find it horrifying that ideals of companionship didn’t exist before this time. Even in this essay, there is a part where Phyllis Blanchard and Carolyn Manassas question what a companion marriage may mean for the future once sexual desire fades. I just found it interesting that eve they are not true believers in companionship. – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
I really enjoyed reading "But We Would Never Talk About It." However, I was not at all surprised about the fact that these women did not talk about their sexual preferences and experiences with other women or their parents, mostly because I still have the impression that while during this time period it was becoming more acceptable for sex to be discusses it still wasn't really done. And since sex in general wasn't talked about, why would a varying preference be talked about? Also while I found it amazing that her mother and father supported her and were ok with her sexual choice, I was also disgusted by the fact the father would use that to his advantage so he could continue his extramarital affairs! I do have to wonder, was she really ok with covering for her dad in these instances, or did she have any resentment towards him for using her in this way and if her nonchalant attitude towards it was because it was simply how she dealt with those feelings?- Elizabeth Frank</div>Efran6hihttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_7_Questions/Comments328--Week 7 Questions/Comments2008-02-24T04:36:46Z<p>Efran6hi: </p>
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<div>"Anxious Mothers write the Children’s Bureau" deals with the health problems related to women and infants. People concerned wrote to the Children’s Bureau of the Department of Labor, which was formed until 1912. Before this, and even after this, was there anything for people to turn to on more of a local level? In addition, the first letter points out that the doctor was not available while the woman was giving birth, and the last letter points out the deficiencies in the profession. Was it more common or more reliable to see a midwife during this time? <br />
--Jessica Kilday<br />
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I think it is interesting to look at the women’s movement and how it evolved in different generations. Bromely begins by looking at the term “feminism” and how some people thought that this meant a young woman who had a job and who is no longer “old fashioned.” She looks at generational gaps between women in their twenties and women in their forties. If you were to make this breakdown today, how would women’s opinions on feminism differ? –Jessica Kilday<br />
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With women having the ability to vote, I think it would have been interesting to track votes by gender and if a wife's vote was the same or opposite as her husband. Did females double the number of votes or was their a clear difference between what women found as important issues vs. the men? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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I was shocked to read about the KKK. I had no idea in 1925 there were between 3 and 4 million American members involved. Also to read there were 500,000 women in a a "Women of the KKK" scares me. What drew all these individuals into this organization? Why so many women in 1925 and fewer in the later years? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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Like Rose I found the article "Women of the Ku Klux Klan" interesting. While I was not that surprised on how many women were involved in it, especially seeing how much dislike the Southern states had towards blacks, and I remembered learning that Jews were becoming to be targets of the KKK I didn't remember that the Catholics were also targets. Although I didn't remember this, seeing how the majority, if not all of the members, were white protestants it does kind of make sense. Though what I found most interesting was the fact that section 2 of the Constitution of and laws of the WKKK stated that the group would be military in character, and I would have thought these women would want to avoid that categorization since it was not very lady-like.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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The Feminists--New Style of "Generational Conflicts" by Dorothy Dunbar Bromley seemed to be considerably naive. Was it really possible for a women to have a successful career during the 1920's and 1930's that could provide economic freedom? Was it as easy as these new feminists presented it to be?---Justin Mattos<br />
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In "New Voters" by Carrie Chapman Catt, I found it notable that Catt thought of political change as only possible through political parties. This view differs from, what I guess is a more idealistic, view that the parties can be affected by grass roots movements. I guess her view of politics must have been shaped by her experiences fighting for women's suffrage. --Justin Mattos<br />
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I found the debate about an Equal Rights Amendment to be fairly interesting. Of the two debates, I, with my modern understanding of things, believe that the argument in favor of the Equal Rights Amendment was a way to achieve gender equality. Having to wait for equality and legislate for women separately seems to play into gender stereotypes instead of defusing them which should ultimately be the purpose of whatever course of action that should be undertaken. --Justin Mattos<br />
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I found "Generational Conflicts" extremely interesting because it seemed like many of the reasons that the women of the 1920s didn't want to be associated with the term 'feminist' are the same reasons that many people today don't want to be. These reasons include the desire to not be seen as man haters, the idea that they wouldn't live for only her husband or her job but rather would balance the two arenas, and had a desire to still wear feminine clothes which the older generation who called themselves feminists did not want to do.-Elizabeth Frank</div>Efran6hihttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_7_Questions/Comments328--Week 7 Questions/Comments2008-02-24T04:29:30Z<p>Efran6hi: </p>
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<div>"Anxious Mothers write the Children’s Bureau" deals with the health problems related to women and infants. People concerned wrote to the Children’s Bureau of the Department of Labor, which was formed until 1912. Before this, and even after this, was there anything for people to turn to on more of a local level? In addition, the first letter points out that the doctor was not available while the woman was giving birth, and the last letter points out the deficiencies in the profession. Was it more common or more reliable to see a midwife during this time? <br />
--Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I think it is interesting to look at the women’s movement and how it evolved in different generations. Bromely begins by looking at the term “feminism” and how some people thought that this meant a young woman who had a job and who is no longer “old fashioned.” She looks at generational gaps between women in their twenties and women in their forties. If you were to make this breakdown today, how would women’s opinions on feminism differ? –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
With women having the ability to vote, I think it would have been interesting to track votes by gender and if a wife's vote was the same or opposite as her husband. Did females double the number of votes or was their a clear difference between what women found as important issues vs. the men? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
<br />
I was shocked to read about the KKK. I had no idea in 1925 there were between 3 and 4 million American members involved. Also to read there were 500,000 women in a a "Women of the KKK" scares me. What drew all these individuals into this organization? Why so many women in 1925 and fewer in the later years? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
<br />
Like Rose I found the article "Women of the Ku Klux Klan" interesting. While I was not that surprised on how many women were involved in it, especially seeing how much dislike the Southern states had towards blacks, and I remembered learning that Jews were becoming to be targets of the KKK I didn't remember that the Catholics were also targets. Although I didn't remember this, seeing how the majority, if not all of the members, were white protestants it does kind of make sense. Though what I found most interesting was the fact that section 2 of the Constitution of and laws of the WKKK stated that the group would be military in character, and I would have thought these women would want to avoid that categorization since it was not very lady-like.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
The Feminists--New Style of "Generational Conflicts" by Dorothy Dunbar Bromley seemed to be considerably naive. Was it really possible for a women to have a successful career during the 1920's and 1930's that could provide economic freedom? Was it as easy as these new feminists presented it to be?---Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
In "New Voters" by Carrie Chapman Catt, I found it notable that Catt thought of political change as only possible through political parties. This view differs from, what I guess is a more idealistic, view that the parties can be affected by grass roots movements. I guess her view of politics must have been shaped by her experiences fighting for women's suffrage. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I found the debate about an Equal Rights Amendment to be fairly interesting. Of the two debates, I, with my modern understanding of things, believe that the argument in favor of the Equal Rights Amendment was a way to achieve gender equality. Having to wait for equality and legislate for women separately seems to play into gender stereotypes instead of defusing them which should ultimately be the purpose of whatever course of action that should be undertaken. --Justin Mattos</div>Efran6hihttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_6_Questions/Comments328--Week 6 Questions/Comments2008-02-19T06:04:49Z<p>Efran6hi: </p>
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<div>I found Jane Addams's view that women needed to be involved in the political parties since organizations for public good founded by a charismatic individual usually died after their departure to be interesting. Her belief that political parties produced more long lasting and stable change through their unification of the states and the nation was what interested me about her view, especially given today's political climate. --Justin Mattos<br />
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I also found it interesting that there existed Negro women who belonged to the Democratic party since it was the party that had recently worked for their enslavement and did not really support woman's rights at the time. --Justin Mattos<br />
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I found Leonara O'Reilly's "A Labor Organizer Speaks Out for Suffrage" to be a very good argument, but I failed to see how it was different from all of the other arguments that Congress probably had already heard that talked about how women's suffrage was the right thing to do and failed to speak about how women's suffrage was in the Congressmen's best interests. --Justin Mattos<br />
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I enjoyed the personal writings by the various working women. All were so informative and individual tone helped to understand the kind of labor, their general treatment, and their personal feelings about the job: gratitude, vulnerability. All these jobs were considered women's work and all were poorly (payed even compared to cheap male labor), demeaning in some way, and offered either high health hazards or demanded long hours. I found Agnes Nestor particularly inspiring, that she worked from unskilled glove maker to union leader (being part of that small 2.2%) and lobbyist for women's work rights. ~Jackie R.<br />
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The speech delivered by Abigail Scott Duniway (printed in Modern American Women), I thought was very interesting. She brings up a very good question, if women were sincere in their belief that men considered women’s opinions and kept their promises to women, then why would men not also feel safe in allowing women the right to vote? Her speech continues, to discuss how men and women were created equally as halves and without the consideration of both, there can never be a whole. –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
There were many arguments both for and against women’s suffrage. Many of these arguments are outlined, in a satirical manner, by Marie Jenny Howe in “An Anti-Suffrage Monologue.” Throughout the monologue, she compares two opposite and extreme arguments to point out how ridiculous an extreme belief can be. One of her arguments can almost be applied to Duniway’s argument. Howe states that, “If the women were enfranchised they would vote exactly as their husbands do and only double the existing vote. Do you like that argument? If not, take this one. If the Women were enfranchised they would vote against their own husbands, thus creating dissension, family quarrels, and divorce,” (102). If men and women truly are two halves of a whole, as Duniway suggests, then the first statement would most certainly be true. If the second statement is taken as true and the votes of men and women cancel each other out and create conflict, then wouldn’t the same be true if voting were left to only men as well? If conflicting votes led to quarrel and instability within a family, then wouldn’t conflicting votes among men result in quarrel and instability in society? Looking at both of these extremes as Howe does throughout the monologue, leads one to realize that a more moderate view would be more functional and practical. –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I found it intriguing in the article by Melanie Gustafon, that even though the progressive party did not accept African American men, there were still some African American men that supported the party. My guess is they saw the party as being 'progressive' and would be the best party to, hopefully, eventually carry their own political desires. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
It was a nice change of pace to read what a woman against suffrage had to say about suffrage. I found her points intriguing, but I also wondered why facts were not proof... facts are usually there to prove one point or another. The article about Alice Paul and the conditions under which the prisoners were kept were horrible! No fresh air, the sweeping of dust into the cells, and feeding them basically raw pork is just horrible. Did this happen at most prisons? Does it still happen? -- Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I found the"Partisan Women in the Progressive Era" by Melanie Gustafson very interesting. I didn't know that the idea of partisan vs. non-partisan was actually a gendered idea, nor had I thought about the idea that women's auxiliaries could have been seen as women's lack of dedication to the political arena (pg 250). However, one of the points she makes that stood out to me the most was the fact that women suffragists, specifically, Ida HUsted Harper, felt that women's involvement in partisan activities was actually damaging to the suffrage movement. My line of thinking would say that the involvement in the partisan groups would actually help the movement since it would show the dedication that women had to politics that supposedly the women's auxiliaries did not. -Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
<br />
In "Inez Haynes Irwin Recalls the Militance of Suffragists in the National Woman's Party, 1921" it is mentioned that after the Senate and President remained silent on the issue of women's suffrage they announced their intention to hold a (peaceful) demonstration yet, when President Wilson heard this, he immediately said he would accept and talk to a delegation of women. I was wondering if he decided to talk to the women because he was afraid that they would meet together and gain support instead of quieting down if the bill didn't pass? And if this was his hope, how could he have expected the women who wanted the vote so badly to simply back down? In other words, did he talk with them with the hope of preventing the very demonstration that they had despite (or maybe because) of this meeting?- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
Yet again I found the readings in Modern American Women absolutely fascinating! I enjoyed reading how many different ways the suffrage movement was promoted and with what ideas, as well with ideas that the anti-suffragists would use (although that came through a satire). Perhaps one of my favorites of these readings was the first one, "A Western Suffragist Talks to her Eastern Sisters" by Abigail Scott Duniway. It said in the introduction that the East coast suffragists saw her as more radical than they wished to be but I don't understand what was so radical about the ideas expressed in the piece we read (this may simply be due to the time period difference). I would have thought that her arguments that the movement was not a war between the genders but a movement for interdependence and that women did not want to remove men from their rights or limit them, but simply wanted to gain the ability to chose their own rights would have been comforting to those men who felt that the movement was a threat to their power. The "Anti-Suffrage Monologue" as also very interesting, at the same time irritating because I am aware that there were women who did actually hold these beliefs. However I do wonder if they would have phrased them in this way or it the arguments were exaggerated in this piece due to its satirical nature. Lastly, I also found the rules contained in "Front Door Lobbying' for Suffrage' by Maud Wood Park to be extremely interesting because it demonstrates the desire of women to gain suffrage while still being viewed as lady-like and proper. I found every single one of these readings interesting but it was those three that stood out to me the most.-Elizabeth Frank</div>Efran6hihttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_6_Questions/Comments328--Week 6 Questions/Comments2008-02-19T05:07:22Z<p>Efran6hi: </p>
<hr />
<div>I found Jane Addams's view that women needed to be involved in the political parties since organizations for public good founded by a charismatic individual usually died after their departure to be interesting. Her belief that political parties produced more long lasting and stable change through their unification of the states and the nation was what interested me about her view, especially given today's political climate. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I also found it interesting that there existed Negro women who belonged to the Democratic party since it was the party that had recently worked for their enslavement and did not really support woman's rights at the time. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I found Leonara O'Reilly's "A Labor Organizer Speaks Out for Suffrage" to be a very good argument, but I failed to see how it was different from all of the other arguments that Congress probably had already heard that talked about how women's suffrage was the right thing to do and failed to speak about how women's suffrage was in the Congressmen's best interests. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I enjoyed the personal writings by the various working women. All were so informative and individual tone helped to understand the kind of labor, their general treatment, and their personal feelings about the job: gratitude, vulnerability. All these jobs were considered women's work and all were poorly (payed even compared to cheap male labor), demeaning in some way, and offered either high health hazards or demanded long hours. I found Agnes Nestor particularly inspiring, that she worked from unskilled glove maker to union leader (being part of that small 2.2%) and lobbyist for women's work rights. ~Jackie R.<br />
<br />
The speech delivered by Abigail Scott Duniway (printed in Modern American Women), I thought was very interesting. She brings up a very good question, if women were sincere in their belief that men considered women’s opinions and kept their promises to women, then why would men not also feel safe in allowing women the right to vote? Her speech continues, to discuss how men and women were created equally as halves and without the consideration of both, there can never be a whole. –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
There were many arguments both for and against women’s suffrage. Many of these arguments are outlined, in a satirical manner, by Marie Jenny Howe in “An Anti-Suffrage Monologue.” Throughout the monologue, she compares two opposite and extreme arguments to point out how ridiculous an extreme belief can be. One of her arguments can almost be applied to Duniway’s argument. Howe states that, “If the women were enfranchised they would vote exactly as their husbands do and only double the existing vote. Do you like that argument? If not, take this one. If the Women were enfranchised they would vote against their own husbands, thus creating dissension, family quarrels, and divorce,” (102). If men and women truly are two halves of a whole, as Duniway suggests, then the first statement would most certainly be true. If the second statement is taken as true and the votes of men and women cancel each other out and create conflict, then wouldn’t the same be true if voting were left to only men as well? If conflicting votes led to quarrel and instability within a family, then wouldn’t conflicting votes among men result in quarrel and instability in society? Looking at both of these extremes as Howe does throughout the monologue, leads one to realize that a more moderate view would be more functional and practical. –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I found it intriguing in the article by Melanie Gustafon, that even though the progressive party did not accept African American men, there were still some African American men that supported the party. My guess is they saw the party as being 'progressive' and would be the best party to, hopefully, eventually carry their own political desires. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
It was a nice change of pace to read what a woman against suffrage had to say about suffrage. I found her points intriguing, but I also wondered why facts were not proof... facts are usually there to prove one point or another. The article about Alice Paul and the conditions under which the prisoners were kept were horrible! No fresh air, the sweeping of dust into the cells, and feeding them basically raw pork is just horrible. Did this happen at most prisons? Does it still happen? -- Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I found the"Partisan Women in the Progressive Era" by Melanie Gustafson very interesting. I didn't know that the idea of partisan vs. non-partisan was actually a gendered idea, nor had I thought about the idea that women's auxiliaries could have been seen as women's lack of dedication to the political arena (pg 250). However, one of the points she makes that stood out to me the most was the fact that women suffragists, specifically, Ida HUsted Harper, felt that women's involvement in partisan activities was actually damaging to the suffrage movement. My line of thinking would say that the involvement in the partisan groups would actually help the movement since it would show the dedication that women had to politics that supposedly the women's auxiliaries did not. -Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
<br />
In "Inez Haynes Irwin Recalls the Militance of Suffragists in the National Woman's Party, 1921" it is mentioned that after the Senate and President remained silent on the issue of women's suffrage they announced their intention to hold a (peaceful) demonstration yet, when President Wilson heard this, he immediately said he would accept and talk to a delegation of women. I was wondering if he decided to talk to the women because he was afraid that they would meet together and gain support instead of quieting down if the bill didn't pass? And if this was his hope, how could he have expected the women who wanted the vote so badly to simply back down? In other words, did he talk with them with the hope of preventing the very demonstration that they had despite (or maybe because) of this meeting?- Elizabeth Frank</div>Efran6hihttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_6_Questions/Comments328--Week 6 Questions/Comments2008-02-19T04:56:21Z<p>Efran6hi: </p>
<hr />
<div>I found Jane Addams's view that women needed to be involved in the political parties since organizations for public good founded by a charismatic individual usually died after their departure to be interesting. Her belief that political parties produced more long lasting and stable change through their unification of the states and the nation was what interested me about her view, especially given today's political climate. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I also found it interesting that there existed Negro women who belonged to the Democratic party since it was the party that had recently worked for their enslavement and did not really support woman's rights at the time. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I found Leonara O'Reilly's "A Labor Organizer Speaks Out for Suffrage" to be a very good argument, but I failed to see how it was different from all of the other arguments that Congress probably had already heard that talked about how women's suffrage was the right thing to do and failed to speak about how women's suffrage was in the Congressmen's best interests. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I enjoyed the personal writings by the various working women. All were so informative and individual tone helped to understand the kind of labor, their general treatment, and their personal feelings about the job: gratitude, vulnerability. All these jobs were considered women's work and all were poorly (payed even compared to cheap male labor), demeaning in some way, and offered either high health hazards or demanded long hours. I found Agnes Nestor particularly inspiring, that she worked from unskilled glove maker to union leader (being part of that small 2.2%) and lobbyist for women's work rights. ~Jackie R.<br />
<br />
The speech delivered by Abigail Scott Duniway (printed in Modern American Women), I thought was very interesting. She brings up a very good question, if women were sincere in their belief that men considered women’s opinions and kept their promises to women, then why would men not also feel safe in allowing women the right to vote? Her speech continues, to discuss how men and women were created equally as halves and without the consideration of both, there can never be a whole. –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
There were many arguments both for and against women’s suffrage. Many of these arguments are outlined, in a satirical manner, by Marie Jenny Howe in “An Anti-Suffrage Monologue.” Throughout the monologue, she compares two opposite and extreme arguments to point out how ridiculous an extreme belief can be. One of her arguments can almost be applied to Duniway’s argument. Howe states that, “If the women were enfranchised they would vote exactly as their husbands do and only double the existing vote. Do you like that argument? If not, take this one. If the Women were enfranchised they would vote against their own husbands, thus creating dissension, family quarrels, and divorce,” (102). If men and women truly are two halves of a whole, as Duniway suggests, then the first statement would most certainly be true. If the second statement is taken as true and the votes of men and women cancel each other out and create conflict, then wouldn’t the same be true if voting were left to only men as well? If conflicting votes led to quarrel and instability within a family, then wouldn’t conflicting votes among men result in quarrel and instability in society? Looking at both of these extremes as Howe does throughout the monologue, leads one to realize that a more moderate view would be more functional and practical. –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I found it intriguing in the article by Melanie Gustafon, that even though the progressive party did not accept African American men, there were still some African American men that supported the party. My guess is they saw the party as being 'progressive' and would be the best party to, hopefully, eventually carry their own political desires. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
It was a nice change of pace to read what a woman against suffrage had to say about suffrage. I found her points intriguing, but I also wondered why facts were not proof... facts are usually there to prove one point or another. The article about Alice Paul and the conditions under which the prisoners were kept were horrible! No fresh air, the sweeping of dust into the cells, and feeding them basically raw pork is just horrible. Did this happen at most prisons? Does it still happen? -- Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I found the"Partisan Women in the Progressive Era" by Melanie Gustafson very interesting. I didn't know that the idea of partisan vs. non-partisan was actually a gendered idea, nor had I thought about the idea that women's auxiliaries could have been seen as women's lack of dedication to the political arena (pg 250). However, one of the points she makes that stood out to me the most was the fact that women suffragists, specifically, Ida HUsted Harper, felt that women's involvement in partisan activities was actually damaging to the suffrage movement. My line of thinking would say that the involvement in the partisan groups would actually help the movement since it would show the dedication that women had to politics that supposedly the women's auxiliaries did not. -Elizabeth Frank</div>Efran6hihttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_4_Questions/Comments328--Week 4 Questions/Comments2008-02-07T01:10:18Z<p>Efran6hi: </p>
<hr />
<div>While reading the primary source documents of the ''Modern American Women'' I found it a bit disconcerting that the women were so similar to the women of today. It is kind of a shame that history repeats itself so fully. I suppose it is evidence that change is gradual and more of an evolution. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Although it was an interesting study, Linda Gordon's study "Black and White Visions of Welfare: Women's Welfare Activism, 1890-1945" came very close to simply listing the differences between the two races of activists. Her conclusions did not seem to have a lot of depth. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I have to agree with Justin Mattos on his comment about Linda Gordon's essay. I too felt that that she really just listed the differences and similarities without any real conclusion. However, I do believe to have a better sense of what was happening, it is good to know that just because welfare groups existed, they didn't all go after the same things. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I also observed in the primary source documents of ''Modern American Women'' that the stereotypes of women have only changed slightly today. Women are still thought to be more fragile than men, and there is still a need to protect them from harm. It has only been within the last decade that the idea of a working women has gained mainstream acceptance. I wonder if this observation stems from the fact that the primary source documents that I read were from the perspective of educated women. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Chapter 14 of Unequal Sisters deals with the differences in welfare activism between African American and white women. Gordon points out that white women had more of an ability to work politically and seek donations from those who would be more able to help (i.e. congressional representatives or other political figures) while the African American women focused their activities around the community and church. She continues, to point out that white women activists focused more on charity and relief while black women sought to provide for more universal needs such as education and health. If there were poor or unfortunate people in both groups (black and white), why is it that white women activists focused on particular people while black women activists focused on reform that is more general? Did societal norms during this time make it more inappropriate to provide individual charity to black women? --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I found it interesting to read “Speaking out Against Lynching” by Ida B. Wells. She discusses the harsh punishments that African Americans were subjected to due to the stereotypes that white men and women held. On p age 15 she states, “With the Southern white man, any misalliance existing between a white woman and a colored man is a sufficient foundation for the charge of rape. The southern white man says that it is impossible for a voluntary alliance to exist between a white woman and a colored man, and therefore, the fact of an alliance is a proof of force.” Given this, would it also be considered rape if it were a black woman and a white man? Moreover, who would be at fault, would it be the man forcing himself onto the woman, or the woman because she is black? --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I also thought the reading by Wells was interesting. She only discusses the accusations that black men were raping white women. She never mentions black women being raped. Was it just something that they didn't talk about or something that they just took as a fact of life during those times? I thought it interesting that discussing how black men were falsely accused of rape and lynched even when it was well known at the time that it was a concentual relationship, but then went on to say that even when the white man left for war he left the white women to be protected by the black men. So why all of a sudden is the lynching of black men on the rise? Was it because now they were free and more like competition to the whites than they had been before?~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
<br />
In response to Mary Beth, I do think that to some extent the lynching of black was due to competition, but also due to fear. Before the African Americans were free, white men had never considered them to be a threat. When they left home they trusted that they would return with their home and family in the same state. It never crossed their minds that it would be possible for their family to be in danger because there had never been any reason to mistrust. Wells states on page 15 that "the world has accepted the story that the Negro is a monster which the Southern white man has painted him." With this image that is created, when the African Americans are free, the white men thus see it as the release of "a monster" and they no longer feel safe and trustworthy as they did before, when "the monster" was contained. --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I also found the reading on Wells interesting. In response to Mary Beth's point about the black women not officially being raped I believe it has some background in the idea that black women were naturally more passionate (less pure) than white women and therefore couldn't be raped because they would still be willing to have that relationship. I also agree with Jessica in that i think the lynching increased because there was a greater amount of fear now about the black community being free and the white community felt the need to use fear to control them. Likewise, in the South (where lynching was common) it might have been a way for the white community to maintain control and limit the amount of change that took place despite slavery being over. - Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
In response to Jessica's question, I think that white women were able to focus more on specific groups, because unlike black women, white women just had to focus on issues of sexual inequality whereas black women had the issues of sexual AND racial inequality going against them, as well as establishing themselves in a newly free world. Chapter 14 of Unequal Sister does highlight that the two major focus point for black women groups was education and health care. These were issues that obviously had to be taken care of after slavery because the whites weren't going to provide it fully for them (yes, a lot of groups DID help) but they knew they had to rely on themselves(as the article shows) to fully develop and not remain stagnant and looked down upon by the white community.- Emely Amaya.<br />
<br />
I also found in interesting in Gordon's piece on Welfare that she notes one specific difference. She states that the white groups that were looking for reform were looking at people "other" than themselves. They saw themselves as helping people less fortunate than themselves but still with a "moral" aspect between who was the "worthy and the unworthy poor" (pg 225). In contrast the black groups focused on middle class and poor blacks. The black groups also focused more on education and health instead of charitys like the whites. ~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
<br />
After reading ''Modern American Women'' I do agree with my classmates on how the perception of women has not changed drastically. It is now socially acceptable for a women to go off into the business world and make a name for herself. Even jobs such a teacher and a nurse that were considered women's work are still dominated today by women. Since I am an education major I go into a lot of elementary schools and the staff is female dominated. I think it is wrong that today where anyone can be anything, people still stereotype jobs and classify things as mens work or females work. This eve goes beyond the adults of the nation. We start these stereotypes early in children's lives. I have always remembered when I was younger and would go to Mc Donalds they would ask "would you like a girl toy or a boy toy?" Sometimes yeah I wanted the princess toy but other times I also wanted the hot wheels car. It is so disturbing to know that we are still dealing with this issue. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
After reading the article on Women's welfare activism,I too felt that she really just listed the differences and similarities without any real conclusion.However on the second page of the article, it talks about the differences of how white and black women were raising money. It says oh of course women raise money but they were also so busy attending White House conferences and correspondence with Supreme Court Justices and the black women it just states they organized bake sales, rummage sales and church dinners. I guess after reading this my biggest pet peeve is that yes white women did have more power in society. However, its not like there were no black women doing the same things. I just don't like how these women are talked down, for what they had their time was just as well spent as a white women. This really just made me feel that white women were more interested in their social lives or making them selves look better and black women worked as a team, they worked for the well being of everyone. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
While reading Chapter 14, I began to think about the possibly that the difference between the perspective of white women and black women on the poor that they helped was a matter of progression or evolution. As the black women received more power, it seemed that they became more like the white women and began to explicitly look down on the poorer black social classes. I saw this occurrence when the author talked about the views of the black poor by educated black women being the same as white women.--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
While reading MAW, I came across an exert from Ida B. Wells, which in truth makes sense, but I didn't expect to see exert from something I have read in the past. There piece of the article here touched me almost as much as it touched me then. The black women were not treated equally in any light, and were not considered to be able to be 'raped' because they were not pure and pious like the white women. Part of that comes through in the last paragraph of the exert. It makes me mad to think that people once thought like this, but what is even more scary is some people still do. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
After reading a bit more in the Modern American Women book, I find myself getting emotionally involved with the information presented. I felt anger towards the father who was treating his daughter like a sack of trash in "An immigrant Daughter Awakens to the Possibilities of the New World." I felt heartbroke when he slapped her because she was leaving. At the same time I know this happened a lot towards women... and it breaks my heart to know what some women had to go through. I've been lucky to have a father who was supportive in everything I chose and only opposed my decisions when they were bad decisions. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I completely agree with Ashley since I was also touched by some of the readings in Modern American Women. I also was upset at the way the young girl was treated by her father in "An Immigrant Daughter Awakens to the Possibilities of the New World". I always knew parents treated their daughters in such a harsh way at times, but it was very hard to see how harshly she was treated. I have to say if I was in her position I also would have left home. Though I did enjoy how she points out that she got in so much trouble for taking the girls word that they would get the 2 cents she owed when she says her dad had given away a lot more merchandise without any payment at all. - Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
Bertha Palmer's speech at the opening of the Women's Building was so progressive except for the part where she says: "It willing acknowledges that the industries, arts, and commerce of the world have been for centuries in the hands of men who have carefully trained themselves for the responsibilities devolving upon them, and who have, consequently, without question, contributed vastly more than women to the valuable thought, research, invention, science, art and literature, which have become the rich heritage of the human race." Does she actually believe this? Or is she catering to what the public will most except in order to support her movement? - Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
I found Anzia Yeziercka's (Immigrant Daughter) story very interesting as far as the existance of two worlds (old/new) for young immigrant women. I feel like today American woman still struggle with existing in between the Old and the New world. It is amazing how sometimes problems never get solved they just evolve. - Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
Mary Harris seemed incredible against the predominant constructs of gender and the entire system of change in America. Clearly she has struggled greatly in her lifetime and criticized women's methods of change... yet she seems to offer now feasibly alternative route. - Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
The difference between the white activism and the black activism discussed in Unequal Sisters was not very surprising to me. I figured that since black women were also fighting for civil rights their fight would be stronger. They seemed to have the largest networks of people working toward the cause. They held fundraising fuctions to help raise the money needed to fund their programs. It is easy to understand how these women bonded in the way that they did. The bond that these women grew amongst themselves was largely due to the having to rely on eachother so much. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
I agree with Kellye about how it wasn't surprising about the differences between black and white activism. The black women had so much more to fight for, and not only that but how education was their most important area of activism instead of voting like for the white women.-- Michelle Mardeusz<br />
<br />
I was impressed with the vast number of organizations that were formed as a result of the fundraising efforts of activist women. I was even more shocked to find the cost of maintaining these organizations and that these women were able to raise the money needed. ---Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
I thought it was very interesting to learn how educated these women were. I knew some women were getting degrees but not this many and not African Americans. I also thought it was interesting to see how important, influential, or rich the parents of these women were even the African American women had wealthy parents. -- Christine Wuebker<br />
<br />
Another thing I found intersting was the view these women had about the role of women. I would have thought that since these women were out in the work force trying to bring about change they would have supported other women in the work place but they don't. It also was a surprise to learn about how many of the women were single, divorced, widowed, married, or living with a "partner." The interacting and sense of community created amoung these women is amazing. -- Christine Wuebker<br />
<br />
It surprises me that black women started to develop social classes just as the white women. Black women who started to gain power, like the power whites had, these black women started to treat the poor and less fortunate black women like a low class. This really bothers me because after everything these women have been through you would except them to try to help each other out, but instead they forget about them and treat them as peasants. What my question is, are these higher powered black women doing this because they are trying to be whiter? Do they care more about upper class societies views on them? -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
I was also surprised on how the black women started a social class just like the white women, but to try and answer your question(s) Amanda, I don't think they were trying to be whiter but maybe instead were so tired of the white social class they were instead competing now against them on what race was better as well as trying to gain the much wanted respect from white society they have wanted for so long. --Michelle Mardeusz<br />
<br />
I agree with Cat and the Anzia Yeziercka's (Immigrant Daughter)piece. Women are stuck dealing with the old and the new world. The problem with todays society is that only some people truly believe in the modern day women however, a good amount of people are so stuck in the past. Its not fair how women have to fight for so much when people need to stop living in the past. --Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
Along with many other posts about the emotional involvement MAW commands of its readers, I found that "Margaret Sanger's Epiphany over Birth Control" opened my eyes to the desperate and difficult position of being a women with no control over her own body. Still today there are few practical birth control methods for the women that need it most. The pill and other hormonal methods are not cheap and condoms primarily place responsiblity on the male partner. It was heart-breaking to hear "a baby born dead, great relief - the death of an older child, sorrow but again relief" (86) as it must have been for Sanger. Sanger was not on a crusade to put a stop to child birth or to change the understanding that sex was for procreation, but rather to bring peace of mind to the women that so desperatly needed it. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
<br />
I also was very touched by "Margaret Sanger's Epiphany over Birth Control". I knew that women had been attempting ways to control the number of children they had for a very long time but I had no idea that someone could self induce an abortion (especially since i really don't know how that works). I also found it so shocking that even married women didn't want to put faith in their husbands desire not to have any more children even though it would reduce the stress on his life and make paying bills easier. I would have thought they would also be glad to have less children to take care of. -Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
I was very suprised to learn when reading Edith Eudora Ammons' piece about life as a female homesteader that women were more successful in staying with their claims by 6%. As she recalled being driven further and further into the unsettled land I can only imagine how disconnecting and daunting that ride must have been. The Ammons sister's hard work is clear proof of a way in which American women were able to take a different route and break the social expectations. After reading about the women who went west with their husbands or in order to find a husband in the past weeks, it was very uplifting to read about the other opportunities the west had for women. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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I thought "Wages for Housework" was the best essay, it made me laugh. I thought it was very interesting on how she capitalized certain sentences in order to show her frustration and to get her point across. I also thought this essay sounded very much like a modern day women and her frustration with being a house wife and how it is not looked at as being a job, because a lot more than just cleaning and cooking goes into taking care of a house and family. --Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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In Nellie Bly's essay she says, "I had such a strong belief in the world's greeting me as I greeted it, that I refused to arm myself. I knew if my conduct was proper I should always find men ready to protect me,..." (pg6-7) She is amazing in the fact that she was going to attempt to fly around the world and the fact that she was a women was going to make this awesome, but in this quote she seems completely oblivious to the real world, and that not everyone you meet is going to like you, aswell as thinking any man would be willing to protect her. Its like she ready to be considered equal to man by doing this great thing but yet still depend on them for protection. --Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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Gordon's essay in US as Kellye mentions as well as I have responded to her comment above about not being suprised about the differences in white and black women activism, but my question is why could women in general, black and white just come together and be the first ones to over look race and fight the cause of womens rights together? I think if they could have done that would of had a more dominate impact in getting what and where they wanted to be.--Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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was also very surprised by Edith Eudora Ammon's piece, but mainly that while they met some resistance in their journey west, they did not seem to get mistreated nearly has much as I would have expected. I would have thought that as two women going west to homestead they would have gotten scoffed at yet I don't recall this being mentioned in the recounting. Is this because it didn't happen or because they chose to ignore it?- Elizabeth Frank</div>Efran6hihttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_3_Questions/Comments328--Week 3 Questions/Comments2008-01-31T03:47:34Z<p>Efran6hi: </p>
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<div>The one thing that immediately struck me while I began reading the Castaneda piece was the classification between "Spanish" and "Mexican" and how, to me, that distinction seems to still be true, on a certain level, today. Castaneda points out how Spanish women were always purer and more mysterious; romanticized in a sense. The Mexican women on the other hand were impure on pretty much every count. Does anyone else feel that this stereotype between the two ethnicities still holds up today or is that just me? Based on general opinion, I feel as though this major difference still sticks out in people's minds (not saying that this distinction is right in any sense.) - Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I was extremely impressed by the scale of the Cherokee Seminary school. For it's time, it seemed like an impressive operation for a people so tremendously discriminated against in America, excepting the multiple burnings down of the building! I was, however, struck by the authors constant use of the word "progressive", which to me is usually a positive word, meaning moving toward improved living/way of life and education for the public. The author used it so negatively though, as a way to describe the discriminating, racially-mixed Cherokee girls and their families usually. Looking at her writings from a historians perspective I see how the word might have been used by the people themselves as a justifier of their own belief of superiority, but the author should not have used it herself because it makes it seem as though she is drawing the line herself between the status of tradition verse progression and pure-blood verse mixed-blood.~Jackie Reed<br />
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The readings this week largely had to do with how historians have struggled to characterize women by race and gender. Women of other races were frequently overlooked. As Castaneda points out in chapter four, when women were studied, it was either because of their significance in relation to someone important, such as a governor. The experiences of any other women would be generalized to stereotype women of that particular race overall. This is interesting to keep in mind when reading “The Life and Legend of Gertrudis Barceló in Nineteenth-Century Santa Fe” by Gonzalez, in which he discusses how the life of one woman (Dona Gertrudis Barceló) impacted the image that people held of Spanish-Mexican women. Why is it that the lives and experiences of minority women could see easily and readily be generalized? --Jessica Kilday<br />
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I thought it was very interesting to read “Too Dark to Be Angels” by Mihesuah. The article described the all female seminary for Cherokee girls. When examining the experiences of Cherokee women in an all female setting, it easier to see the impact that race and economics played in their lives. You no longer have the issue of breaking down the study by gender and race, nor do you have the question of which plays a more significant role. In looking at the experiences of the Cherokee women in this school, it is easy to see that segregation occurred even when the playing field seemed to be leveled. The more white blood the females had, the more accepted they were by others. Additionally, it would be more likely that they would be able to marry and be economically and culturally successful. --Jessica Kilday<br />
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I also thought the reading about the female seminary for the Cherokee girls was very interesting. It seems odd to me that there was such an emphasis placed on the percentage of cherokee vs white blood you had. It was an Indian school but it seems that to be accepted or what the girls felt was preferred was to be as "white" as possible, but yet they still talked about the percent, however small, of Cherokee blood they had. Most of the girls in the pictures to me did not "look" like a typical Cherokee and if the emphasis was on being as "white" as possible why did they even attend the seminary, why not go to a white school. Were they that segregated that even a small amount of Cherokee blood would prevent them from going to a white school, and who would know if you didn't say anything about what percent white you were? ~~Mary Beth C<br />
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While reading "Gender, Race, and Culture: Spanish Mexican Women in the Historiography of Frontier California" and "Women of Color and the Rewriting of Western History" by Antonia I. Castaneda, I wondered whether it were true that only Westerners studied the history of Hispanic women until the 1970s or 1980s. --Justin Mattos<br />
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After reading "The Life and Legend of Gertrudis Barcelo in Nineteenth-Century Santa Fe" by Deena J. Gonzalez, I found it interesting that during that time it was so easy to step outside the boundaries of the perceptions of the general populace. The case of interesting women like Barcelo is very similar to the inability of the Native Americans to see the ships of Cortez until Cortez's men pointed them out to them.--Justin Mattos<br />
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It is strange that in the "Bills of Sale of Chinese Prostitutes, 1875-1876" "stone-woman" was considered a problem/disease. From what I understand, having sex through prostitution is not an enjoyable experience.--Justin Mattos<br />
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My favorite reading out of all of these essays was "To Dark to Be Angels" by Devon Mihesuah, because my great grandmother was apparently 1/4 cherokee, so it was like reading apart of her history. But what I found so interesting about this essay was how these cherokee women were trying to live up to a white persons society, or "adapting to society's 'whiteness'."(187) For so many years the European society in America had tried to civilize Indians, and get them out of farming and hunting, and in this reading it was like they gave up their fight of keeping their heritage and decided to try and fit in to white society. Why? There was all of the sudden the whiter you looked the better off you were, and this often left the full blooded cherokee women feeling inferior to white yet still.<br />
--Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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Deena Gonzalez's essay on Gertrudis Barcelo describes a very interesting women. She basically went against what all the other women in society were expected to be like. She was rich and most interesting was that she made her saloon the center of the town's social and economic life, as well as military and political people coming to her for advise (255). Wasn't that unheard of in those days? How was it that she was able to lead this life and other women didn't, or did they try? --Michelle Marduesz<br />
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Castaneda's article caused me to think on how the problem with the history of CA and its residents before Anglos is a problem with many areas. What I mean by that is a history that does integrate race, gender, and culture or class as categories of historical analysis (page 71) is a problem are for many places. It just really strikes a bit harder when you read a little of the historiography on some of the problems of the already published and out there history. -- Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I was impressed and slightly confused on the essay by Mihesuah about the female Cherokee seminary. I was impressed because even though the school burned down they rebuilt it and it still exists (at least the ending made it sound that way). I was confused because if the whiter you were the better, why did full-blooded traditionalist Cherokees send their daughters there? Were they trying to get an upperhand on the white man? Even if it meant learning to write and read the language in order to better fight the white man? It had me confused. Also, if it was a Cherokee school, why girls go who were barely even Cherokee?, like the one mentioned on page 186 who was only 1/32 Cherokee. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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The essay "Too Dark to be Angels" concludes by stating that the seminary was a progressive success. I can not help but question this outcome based on what I read. I have no doubts that the seminary provided short term advantages to its attendees as it related to social and economic status however, it appears also that the women let petty matters of snobbery and ego undermine the overall mission of the seminary (which I imagine was to uplift the Cherokee nation through education). It seems that by attending this seminary Cherokees were destroying themselves from the inside out. The women learned to feel either superior or inferior and therefore they could not remain united as an ethnic group. Also, the fact that whites were put on such a high pedestal made the Cherokees vulnerable to manipulation in the future. - Landon Davis<br />
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Bancroft's qoute "a race halfway between the proud Castillian and the lowly root digger." existing "halfway between savage and civilization." on page 59 of Casteneda's essay is reprehensible. It caused me to quesiton the root cause of such racism, and prejudice. What makes someone racist? Is it truly just because the other person looks different? Is it about pre-conceived notions or hearsay, turned hateful stereotypes? Could it be a morally corrupt individual looking for a way to dehumanize a group, in order to justify poor treatment (i.e. stealing Indian land or slavery)? It seems there has to be some underlying motive for racism, besides just the color of one's skin vs. antohers'. - Landon Davis<br />
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After doing the readings, "A Citizen Protests the Rape of Indian Women in California, 1862" attracted my attention the most, and I struggled to figure out why. I think this document raises a lot of questions about gender norms during the time period, in a substantially different way than the other documents in Major Problems. It's clear from the other readings that rape and domination of Native Americans was not uncommon. "A Citizen Protests" raises the questions about the response to these acts by average citizens. The author of the letter labels the rapists brutes, who should be punished "in justice to decency, humanity, and civilization." However, its clear the author's morals aren't widely shared, why else would his or her letter to the editor be anonymous? ~ Matt Struth<br />
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I agree with Kelly and her thoughts on the Castaneda piece and how it described the classification between "Spanish" and "Mexican" and how the distinction seems to still be true, on a certain level, today. It is pointed out that Spanish women were always purer held higher up in societies eyes. The Mexican women on the other hand were impure in every way. Basically no matter how corny this sounds, Spanish women are classy and Mexican women are trashy. This is still seen today, even in my mind sometimes you think of Mexican you think lower class. However, when you think Spanish, you see a women wearing bright colors beautiful clothes.I wonder do we think this way because Spain is located in Europe and when Eurpoe comes to mind you think of places like Milan or Paris? --Amanda Taub<br />
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I had the same questions about the essay by Mihesuah about the female Cherokee seminary as Ashley. What I didn't understand was why whiter was better? I found it interesting that full-blood Cherokees were sending their children to this extremely expensive school to become whiter. Is it to try to become equals with white people or is it to pull ahead of them? What I really don't understand is why are the Cherokees trying to wipe out their culture. That is what happened when we first settled the Indians became "whiter" and look at where they are now, language has been lost, traditions stories the list goes on. To me it seems like this school was good for the purpose of education but I felt as if it took away culture. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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I think that Antonia Castaneda's essay makes some far-reaching claims that are not completely warranted. Castaneda credits the biased work of Bancroft with informing all later popular and scholarly works with specific stereotypes of Spanish women (pg 59). While perhaps not central to Castaneda's essay I don't understand how one, or even a few historical scholars could be solely responsible for passing on biased perceptions. I think Castaneda ignores other ways that negative stereotypes get passed on. The fact that these negative stereotypes persist in persons who are not scholars of history indicates that later scholars might not have adopted the same stereotypes that Bancroft did solely because he did, but because they embraced these stereotypes in their daily lives. ~ Matt Struth<br />
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I found the documents about women in the Trans-Mississippi Frontier West incredibly interesting and shocking at the same time. The Bills of Sale of Chinese Prostitutes were the most shocking of the collection. Was this a common phenomenon at this time? --Angela Scott<br />
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I agree with Amanda's points about the female Cherokee seminary. I feel that the Cherokees were attending this school in hopes of becoming 'whiter', which did result in a dilution of their culture. One must wonder if they saw this as a negative thing, however. They saw that whites had the money, the land, and the privilege. Is it possible that they willingly sacrificed their unique culture in hopes of attaining these things that whites had and they did not? --Angela Scott<br />
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I think Matt brings up an interesting point about "A Citizen Protests the Rape of Indian Women in California, 1862," in mentioning that the letter was anonymous. To our minds, the opinions shared seem to be the norm, but the simple fact that the writer of this letter felt the need to keep their opinions anonymous definitely demonstrates that these opinions were not the norm. This reflects a sad fact of race and gender norms of the time. --Angela Scott<br />
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As I was reading "Zitkala-Sa Travels to the Land of the Big Red Apples," a few things really struck me. First, I was amazed by the conflict between the young girl and her mother and that the young girl wanted to leave her family. I was also amazed that it was ultimately the mother's decision whether or not to send the young girl away, and in fact the father was not mentioned at all. I think that this highlights a cultural difference between the Dakotas and the white Americans. --Katie Nelson<br />
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I thought that an important and likely common racial and gender issue was highlighted in "Violet Cragg, Ex-Slave and Former Army Nurse, Requests an Army Pension, 1908." She mentioned that the father of her daughter was a white man. Sadly, I think that this was all too common, and denotes how white men took advantage of enslaved women. --Katie Nelson<br />
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Mihesuah's piece about the diluded culture of the Cherokee women shows the power of the white, middle classed ideal. I thought the school's class system was very interesting and exposed how strong the force to wipe out Native American presence really was. I felt as if the Cherokee culture was breeded out with each new generation of students striving for white ideals. I wondered if perhaps within my own Eastern European ancestory a similiar process of acculturation took place. For now although I consider myself American I still have a sense of Polish pride, but after reading about the Cherokee seminary perhaps my ancestors strove to break apart from their cultural ties? -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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I found the article "Bills of Sale of Chinese Prostitutes" to be extremely disturbing. As if it weren't bad enough to be sold to someone for my body the rules were absurd. I'm not sure which one was worse "if she concieves, she shall serve one year more" or "if she should escape and be recovered, then her time shall never expire." Who came up with these ideas and rules and how is this accepted in any society?? - Rose Ferguson<br />
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Growing up we've all been exposed to different stereotypes of various classifications of individuals. After doing the readings this week, it makes me question what did other races and genders think of whites? what were white femailes stereotyped as and has it changed throughout the years? It the perception change depending on who you talk to and do different backgrounds have varying perceptions? I'm curious as to how the "typical" white woman was portrayed. - Rose Ferguson<br />
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While reading Castaneda's article in the section "The Spanish Borderlands School" it became clear that the mention of Spanish Mexican women from Bolton and previous historians was often very political. Their place revolved around the rivalary of Mexican and Euro-American males. They were only significant when their lives involved or revolved around men. From a romanticized stereotype of Spanish women came the notion that they preferred white men. Realistically Americans wanted to hear of their superiority over Mexicans. Their role was to be an American conquest resulting in dominance over Mexican males. This proves Castandeda's point that the history of women needs to be reexamined under a lens unbiased by "Anglo North American(s)". -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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I agree with Rose about the documents of Chinese prostitutes. I could not believe that women actually agreed to those rules such as if she is sick for fifteen days then she will serve another month or if she conceives then she will serve another year. The money they received must have been a good enough amount for them, but is it really worth it to lose your life by selling your body to someone? -Ashley Scutari<br />
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When reading Castaneda's article I couldn't help but think how we do romanticize the Spanish American women of the western frontier. Presented in movies and books, the Spanish woman in America has developed this myth of beauty and grace in the California frontier. On the other hand, the Mexican American woman is thought of as dirty and poor, perhaps a prostitute. Again there are modern images in movies and popular culture referencing that stereotyped past. When I was reading the article, the stereotypes of a romantic Spanish woman against the beggar-like figure of a Mexican woman from the western frontier were at the forefront of my thoughts. Like last week's articles, Castaneda's article shows how important it is to analyze all facets of women's history regardless of race. It also made me think how difficult it must be for historians to separate fact from fiction especially with these images of the old West still around today. -Kendall Haring<br />
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In response to Kelly W's question regarding the two ethnicities, I believe that it does exist. I had the opportunity to visit Mexico a number of years ago and was surprised to hear the derogatory comments made by the Mexican workers in regard to the tourists from South America, which they referred to as "Spanish". There seems to be a perception or attitude within the hispanic (or Latino) community; namely, "Spanish" descent ranks high, Mexican follows, and then the Mayans. This order in hierarchy is not that much different from the one that existed in colonial Mexico and Middle America, which placed Spaniards on top, then Spanish born in Mexico, Mestizos (Spanish/native females), Indians, then Blacks.-LisaM<br />
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One of the things that stood out to me in our reading "Genderm Race and Culture: Spanish Mexican Women in the Historiography of Frontier California" was the differentiation made between "Mexican" women and "Spanish" Women. This distinction reminded me a lot of the idea that many East Coast Americans held during this time period that "black" women were filled with lust and passion and thereful immoral while "White" women were pure and pious and the most moral of all. Only in this case the "Mexican" women were in the place of the black women and the "Spanish" women in the place of the white women".- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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In Modern Problem I found it interesting that someone reported the raping of the native americans on the ranch in "A Citizen Protests the Rape of Indian Women in California". I had assumed that if the people felt that the natives were so unimportant that they wouldn't have bothered reporting or complaining about the treatment these women received even though it was appalling. I also found the reading on the Selling of Chinese Prostitutes interesting because the terms they were given were little better than the terms of slavery and even if they had an "end" in site it would get pushed back because every one gets sick and they would have a month added on for that and of course in the profession of prostitution the likelihood of getting pregnant is of course high, so that would be another year. What was the likelihood of these women ever actually gaining their freedom? -Elizabeth Frank</div>Efran6hihttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_1_Questions/Comments328--Week 1 Questions/Comments2008-01-16T03:04:51Z<p>Efran6hi: </p>
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<div>This is not a real post.<br />
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I agree.<br />
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You're both wrong. -- Sarah H.<br />
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I found it extremely interesting in "Challenging Dichotomies in Women's History" that fatherhood was not seen as a natural thing but instead was viewed as being "social". Yet for women being a mother was a "natural" phenomenon. I would have thought that it would have also been seen as natural for the man to also assume a fatherly role despite his involvement in the public sphere. Is this because the men were already doing so much that being a fatherly figure just couldn't always be an important role? Or is it because if they were expected to show a more emotional side of them they would be considered less of a man because they wouldn't be acting tough? - Elizabeth L. Frank<br />
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I was surprised to read in "Rethinking the Position of Black Women in American Women's History" that some Black Women scholars feel that even today the importance of black women and their roles in society are being overlooked in the fields of women's studies! I understood that it took a little while for scholars to realize that they had to look at the difference ethnicities differently as far as their experiences in society but I had no idea that there were aspects that were still being overlooked. I also liked the statement Leslie Alexander made in the first sentence of the last paragraph of the essay that in order to truly understand the experiences of women that scholars must become willing to explore the differences of the cultures instead of simply ignoring the fact that they are different. I thought that was a very good point. - Elizabeth L. Frank</div>Efran6hihttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=Week_15_Questions/CommentsWeek 15 Questions/Comments2007-12-05T20:24:45Z<p>Efran6hi: </p>
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<div>One of the things that stood out to me during these readings was in "The Office Clerk" when the office manager was listing all of the reasons women were superior towards men for these positions. Among these reasons were that they almost always present for the work day and not making up silly excuses for an absence and the precision that they conducted their work in. I found it surprising that this man had such high praise for women. Could he have been saying this to the interviewer (Clara Lanza) to appease the female crowd who would be reading her article? Or did he really feel this way towards his female workers? Did the fact that companies could get away with paying women less than men factor into this appreciation for women clerks? - Elizabeth Frank<br />
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I found the article "Objections to Domestic Service" in that Lucy Salmon polled servants and their employers and from that managed to come up with a list of disadvantages. These disadvantages were an effort to dissuade young, American born women from entering this type of service. Such "industrial disadvantages" include "lack of all opportunity for promotion," "lack of organization in the service," "irregularity in working hours," "competition with the foreign born and the negro element," and "the interference with work often by those less skilled than the workers themselves." I can understand Salmon's reasoning for wanting to keep women from working as domestic servants. However, I'm slightly confused when she comments on how with the professions of seamstresses, clerks, trained nurses, and teachers can lead to promotions in the working environment. So in that sense, Salmon is urging women to pursue jobs other than domestic servitude. But is she at all encouraging them to return to the home? -- Vanessa Smiley<br />
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In Julia Ward Howe's writing under "The Joys of Activism," whether this is intended as propaganda or not, it certainly could be and nicely done. I love how she describes the moment she realized that women could and should do better than where they were. "During the first two thirds of my life I looked to the masculine ideal of character as the only true one... In an unexpected hour a new light came to me... The new domain now made clear to me was that of true womanhood - woman no longer in her ancillary relation to her opposite, man, but in her direct relation to the divine plan and purpose, as a free agent, fully sharing with man every human right and every human responsibility." She's certainly encouraging any that read this that she 'saw the light' you could say and the reader can have these realizations too. -- Vanessa Smiley<br />
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I found "Working Women Debate Woman Suffrage" very interesting, especially the entries from "Americus". The person writing these seemed to be extremely bitter towards men. She states that "we won't stay at home any more and cook and wash dishes either; we've done it long enough; let 'him' do it a little while."(Woloch 366) It just seems like she's extremely bitter that women do so much work with raising children and keeping the house clean, but men appear to go out have a good time with their friends and thats it. -Elizabeth frank</div>Efran6hihttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=Week_15_Questions/CommentsWeek 15 Questions/Comments2007-12-05T03:56:19Z<p>Efran6hi: New page: One of the things that stood out to me during these readings was in "The Office Clerk" when the office manager was listing all of the reasons women were superior towards men for these posi...</p>
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<div>One of the things that stood out to me during these readings was in "The Office Clerk" when the office manager was listing all of the reasons women were superior towards men for these positions. Among these reasons were that they almost always present for the work day and not making up silly excuses for an absence and the precision that they conducted their work in. I found it surprising that this man had such high praise for women. Could he have been saying this to the interviewer (Clara Lanza) to appease the female crowd who would be reading her article? Or did he really feel this way towards his female workers? Did the fact that companies could get away with paying women less than men factor into this appreciation for women clerks? - Elizabeth Frank</div>Efran6hihttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=Week_14_Questions/CommentsWeek 14 Questions/Comments2007-11-28T01:45:57Z<p>Efran6hi: New page: I enjoyed reading the account of Louisa May Alcott in Woloch when she was describing her period of nursing in the hospital. I knew that the conditions were bad but reading that account rea...</p>
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<div>I enjoyed reading the account of Louisa May Alcott in Woloch when she was describing her period of nursing in the hospital. I knew that the conditions were bad but reading that account really made it clearer what they had to deal with, such as the lack of ventilation, which of course would not have helped the wounded and sick heal.- Elizabeth Lynn Frank<br />
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Since the men have left/ Women take over the farm/ We do what we must. (Inspired by "Northern Women on Farms"; he did say we could do haikus). I liked reading this account because to me it shows how much women were willing to change in some cases in order to adjust to the men leaving for war and in order to make the farm continue to succeed. These women were great motivators, or could have been if they had encouraged others to do the same.- Elizabeth Lynn Frank</div>Efran6hihttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=Week_12_Questions/CommentsWeek 12 Questions/Comments2007-11-15T02:41:21Z<p>Efran6hi: </p>
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<div>In Woloch's reading, (O, Ye Daughters of Africa, Awake!), Maria Stewart, a black Bostonian, played a special role in public life and women's history. When the abolitionist movement began, William Lloyd Garrison published some of her essays in his antislavery journal. In her essays, I really liked how Stewart urged women to pursue self-improvement and assert their rights. A lot of her message was aimed at African American women. -Katie D.<br />
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I agree with Katie but I'd also like to point something else out about the piece "O, Ye Daughters of Africa, Awake!" All throughout Maria Stewart's account, she used revolutionary rhetoric, more often than not using the word "liberty." She also consistently brought up freedoms such as the freedom of the press and the freedom of speech, and it just emphasizes what we learned in class that this revolutionary rhetoric was coming back to haunt the upper and middle class white men that the rhetoric was supposed to apply to. -Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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When reading Lucy Stone's Marriage Protest, in Woloch's book, I found it interesting that when the couple took their vows, each partner signed a unique marriage "protest". This protest was also read as part of their ceremony! -Katie D.<br />
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I really feel that Lucy Stone epitomizes the definition of a feminist, the one that will lead to our modern day definition/perception. She kept her own name, she "refused to 'obey', and challenged the system..." The protest itself is riddled with a woman's absolute independence. It takes away any traditional patriarchal "laws" and demands equality from both man and woman. -- Vanessa Smiley<br />
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I was also interested by Lucy Stone's marriage protest, probably because it was so not what one would expect from a woman from the mid 1800s, at least I assume this was irregular. The things that she was protesting we take for advantage that we dont have to worry about them. For instance women today dont have to worry about their legal existence disappearing with marriage. But for her the things that many women seemed to just accept as their fate she rebelled against. I was also intreged that she kept her own name. --Mary P.<br />
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I was equally intrigued by the marriage of Lucy Stone and was curious if we know anything about how Henry Blackwell was treated after agreeing to this marriage protest. Was he ridiculed by men for not being able to "control" his wife? Was he embraced by woman for being the ideal husband for letting his wife have rights? Or was he simply ignored, as if this case was not out of the ordinary in any way?- Lisa Wilkerson<br />
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The fact that Henry Blackwell actually agreed to sign the Marriage Protest was what surprised me. We don't see a lot of men willing to give up that kind of power over their wives before and during this time period. Was he a women's rights activist? -- Jennifer Feldhaus<br />
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When I read the piece, "Seduced and Abandoned," in the Woloch book, I could not help but start laughing. I understand that it is not a laughing matter that girl was abandoned by her "fiance" and had to become a prostitute, but the way in which it was written screamed propaganda. The way the innocent girl from the country was persuaded to elope by a villain from the city and then was decoyed into becoming a prostitute only until meeting up with a wholesome man from her hometown is just too unreal. It is amazing how this scenario is consistently used and tweaked to support different causes. But it really shows how the moral reform movement was determined to deliver people to the side of God and how women were at the forefront since the piece was obviously written by a woman. -Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I agree with Kelly about "Seduced and Abandoned" being so blantantly propagandistic. I have read many similar stories in literature of the day. I wonder, however, how common a story this really was. I realize that it's not exactly something we can get statistics on. I'm sure that it happened quite a bit. However, it seems likely that at least some of these tales are either altered for effect or completely made up. I'm curious as to how the public perception of danger to their daughters compared with reality. --Ashley H. <br />
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I was very intrigued by the Declaration of Sentiments drafted by Elizabeth Cady Stanton. The way she manipulated the Declaration of Independence is the perfect example of women using revolutionary rhetoric to get what they want. If you placed the two next to one another and asked someone to tell the difference, I think it would take quite a bit of reading (probably up until she starts blaming men for everything) before they could figure it out. Stanton proved to be very clever and I just hope there were many more women like her fighting for what they believed. -Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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In Woloch, the "Letter to the Liberator" piece really seemed to strike at the heart of women and their role in reform. and specifically this letter addresses slavery. "Woman has a place, for she forms a part in God's created intelligent instrumentality to reform the world. God never made her to be inactive - nor in all cases to follow in the wake of man... We believe God gave woman a heart to feel - an eye to weep - a hand to work - a tongue to speak. Now let her use that tongue to speak on slavery." Those words state that is every woman's right and responsibility and duty to play an active role in reform. -- Vanessa Smiley<br />
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I enjoyed the rhetoric of liberty and patriotism used in the "Letter to the Liberator." Emery writes, "Is not woman abused--woman trampled upon---woman spoiled of her virtue . . . and this, not in India---not in China---not in Turkey---not in Africa---but in America . . . in the birthplace of Washington, the father of freedom, the protector of women, the friend of equality and human rights!" Emery reminds Americans of their own fight for freedom, and she calls for America to become a morally superior nation. Even the use of the phrase, "On such a creed, we base the constitution, which binds us together," feels reminiscent of the writings of the founding fathers. ---Ashley H. <br />
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I thought it was very interesting to read about Sojourner Truth and how she felt about the situtation and the rehtoric that she used. Up until this point the majority of women we have heard from have been white, middle-upper class women with very good educations. But here is a woman who was a slave, who cannot read or write. She was also deeply religious and I thought it was very interesting to read her speach and reading the various Biblical references that she makes to prove her point, as well as using her life story to express her belief in women's rights. --Mary P.<br />
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It was interesting to read that when Elizabeth Cady Stanton urged women to secure the vote in the “Declaration of Sentiments” other women’s rights supporters felt it would make the “whole movement ridiculous.” I am sure that none of them could imagine that <br />
the right of suffrage would end up becoming the cornerstone of the women’s rights movement. <br />
It was really interesting that Lucy Stone decided to get married and at the same time challenged the institution of marriage which had forced women to give up their rights. I found it remarkable that she even had her husband sign a “marriage protest” and the document was published in a newspaper. We’ve read about other women who have refused to get married because they did not want to lose their rights but Mrs. Stone was the first one who challenged the marriage system of her day.-Caitlin Quinn<br />
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I also thought it was interesting that securing the vote for women almost didn't appear in the Seneca Falls Convention's Declaration of Sentiments because of support issues. Now it's really the first thing anyone thinks about when they hear the word Seneca Falls Convention. Maybe people though that women would be asking for too much in too short of a time period if they included voting. Or maybe they though that it would overshadow some of the other things they were trying to accomplish. -- Jennifer Feldhaus <br />
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It amazes me that almost every arguement used for or against Women's rights involved biblical references. Women arguesd God made them just as intelligent and capable as men and men, like the editor of Harper's Magazine, argued that the Women's rights movements were "opposed as it was to divine revelation, time-honored proprieties, and biblical authority." (158) I wonder what the arguements would be if God, The Creator, or religion weren't allowed to be invovled. Even though during this period the Great Awakening was peaking, I wonder what women who did not follow that movement and were less-religious thought. What were their arguements? "The American Femal More Refore Society Warns Mothers About "Solitary Vice" was to me a hysterical piece. I found it particularly funny that they called it a "body and ''soul-destroying'' sin." -- Emily Miller<br />
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I thought the article on Sojourner Truth was very interesting. It was great to get her perspective on women't rights. I agree with Mary P that her use of Biblical references were a great way to make her point and the fact that as a slave she probably worked harder everyday than a lot of white men did at the time just proved that women could do anything the men could do. <br />
I also found the Marriage Protest by Lucy Stone interesting to say the least. That is definately extreme feminism for that time. I can see why she was "ridiculed and persecuted" but if you are that against the ideas of marriage at that time why go through a marriage at all? Why not stay single and just live together? Although I don't know how radical that idea would have been at the time but at least you kept your identity. ~~ Mary Beth Conrad<br />
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I found the first 2 documents in MP pages 141- 143 a bit too flowery. The woman who is addressing the other ladies paints a lovely picture of all the good that they have accomplished for the poor. It makes me wonder if they spent most of their time patting their selves on the back rather than doing foot work on the street helping out the poor. ---Cheryl<br />
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I, too, enjoyed the speech by Sojourner Truth, but what I found most interesting was the inclusion of southern dialect by Frances Gage. Obviously, being that Sojourner was from a Dutch-speaking New York family, her accent would have been anything but Southern. Perhaps by making Sojourner sound like a Southern slave, Gage was trying to appeal to Southern slaveowners. When Gage wrote this version of Sojourner's speech, it was during the Civil War and at the height of the Abolitionist movement. This context obviously influenced how/what she chose to emphasize from Sojourner's speech.- Lisa Wilkerson<br />
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I really enjoyed the essay on Sojourner Truth. She spoke well on equal rights. Her comparisons of physical strengths and intelligence as qualifiers for equal rights should have been an eye opener for all there. She showed that women could be physically strong, intelligent and take a great amount of pain. I like when she spoke how someone had said women can’t have equal rights because Jesus wasn’t a women. I have heard similar musing before in women’s groups how all men come from women. She is a very inspiring speaker.---Cheryl<br />
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One of the things that stood out to me about Sojourner Truth Speaks was that not only did she use biblical references in a way she seemed to be challenging the traditional held views of the church, especially when she talks about how since Eve did sin first men should stop holding women back but instead allow them a chance to make up for what "they" did. -Elizabeth Frank</div>Efran6hihttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=Week_10_Questions/CommentsWeek 10 Questions/Comments2007-10-30T03:56:15Z<p>Efran6hi: </p>
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<div>Woloch’s book--I found the reading The Cruel Mistress, to be a form of abolitionist propaganda to raise the argument about how inhumane slavery is. Angelina Grimke Weld would give great credibility to the abolitionist movement because of her observations of the southern community as she was once a southern herself. These observations are highly detailed as if it was fresh from her memories yet these accounts in her memories are at least fourteen years old. Thus it begs the question, did these mistresses really conduct themselves this way according to what Weld had witnessed? Are her memories that reliable? Or are these observations, in how mistresses treated their slaves, facts or exaggerations of the facts? –John Furner <br />
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I think it is likely that these mistresses did conduct themselves in a way very similar to Weld's accounts even though a decent amount of time had passed between when she had witnessed the actions and when she recorded them for publishing. The treatment that she described I believe was very common of the slave owners to not see their slaves as fully human and therefore not treat them as such. However, the treatment that stood out most to me during this entry was how the mistress would not beat the slaves herself but have that slave's brother or sister beat them. I would think this would make them want to act out more.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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Woloch’ Book—Reading Louisa S. Cheeves McCord attack on Stowe was a bit difficult to swallow. It seems to me that she plays right into the Patriarchal system of having to assume the role to take care of those less fortunate. Otherwise, she attempts to give credence to southern white man’s burden for the purpose to have slaves. I find it amusing when she writes, “We proclaim it, on the contrary, a Godlike dispensation, a providential caring for the weak, and a refuge for the portionless.” (219) Why I find this amusing is that she believes the white race must assume a god like status in the care of the less fortunate, thereby the less fortunate group could only prosper in a civilized world, if they were enslaved by the white race; white man’s burden. However, if the white race were so godlike or given providence as she claims, then why are southern slave owners dependant on slaves for their very existence?—John Furner</div>Efran6hihttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=Week_9_Questions/CommentsWeek 9 Questions/Comments2007-10-25T04:31:13Z<p>Efran6hi: </p>
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<div>I’m rather amazed with the strict order imposed on a middle class housewife, as read in Catharine Beecher’s “System and Order”. Each day of the week is filled with a specific chore that is repeated the following week. It seems like such a lifestyle would become repetitious and mundane, yet Beecher refers to this “taste for regularity” as a “blessing”. How come?- Lisa Wilkerson<br />
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I also found the piece “System and Order” by Catharine Beecher very interesting. The idea of a system for household duties and turning the house into a well-functioning, successful entity I think is reflective of the shifts going on in society. The shift from home production to office/factory production, the shift from agricultural, home-made/imported goods to finished goods made in factories, and the shift of men outside the home are all reflected in this piece. This piece reminded me of another piece I read in another class about time and how the introduction of clocks and watches placed an added stress to productivity both in factories and in the home. Similarly, women were expected to budget their time, assigning a specific amount of time per task. Beecher recommends dividing the tasks, spreading them throughout the week, and using children as a means to be more productive. Do these self-help manuals place more stress on women to live up to an ideal? Do you think Beecher’s advice intimidates women? How often was this advice practiced or did it remain an ideal? Do we see any similarities between Beecher’s advice and modern day life? –Mary Beth Dillane <br />
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In regards to Mary Beth's question, I do think self-help manuals put more stress on women. Beecher's writing makes it seem that if there are any problems in the home than it is the woman's fault. According to Beecher, all a woman has to do is follow her "habit of system and order" and all should be fine. However, this obviously will not work for everyone. The proliferation of these self help manuals just perpetuates the notion of the idealized family. - Fiona C.<br />
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When reading "System and Order", I found it very intersting when they said that "the success of democratic institutions all depends upon the intellectual and moral character of the mass of the people...It is equally conceded that the formation of the moral and intellectual character of the young is committed mainly to the female hand...Let the woman of a country be made virtuous and intelligent, and the men will certainly be the same. The proper education of a man decides the welfare of an individual; but educate a women, and the interests of a whole family are secured..." This is quite the assumption here.--Katie D.<br />
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Did these strict definitions of womens' duties and the expectations of an intensely ordered household reflect an effort to balance the deferential wife? How much of the intense strictures on order attempted to show the strength and power of women because they were so limited to this realm of the domestic? Or, were those expectations of the idealized perfect home following order simply intensified when the home became the woman's sphere?--A. Meyer<br />
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When reading Catherine Beecher's system and order one quote really stood out to me, "It is impossible for a conscientious woman to secure that peaceful mind, and cheerful enjoyment of life, which all should seek, who is constantly finding her dutings jarring with each other, and much remaining undone, which she feels that she ought to do..." This really shocked me because it is a very woman who is saying that it is natural for women to want to do these kind of things, thats what they are best at, and thats whats best for the good of the country. Also, when she gives the weekly schedule and talks about how children should be given tasks and schedules so that daughters will know how to act when they are married, I found this again reiterated in The Rules for the School. Number 10 states "Nothing can be well done with out proper attention to regularity..." -- Emily Miller<br />
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When reading the “Reports on Western Schools” letters from two teachers to Catharine Beecher, it is interesting to see the stark contrast of experiences. The first teacher seems to have zero amenities. She uses a “single board for a writing desk, a few bricks for andirons, and a stick of wood for shovel and tongs”. Some of her students are so poor they cannot afford shoes. She makes subtle hints that she is in need of money for purchasing suitable books, maps, slates, pencils, and paper, but we never read if she ever received any assistance. The other teacher had a new schoolhouse built for her which included writing desks and a black board. It is obvious that she is fairly well off in her new surroundings. Surprisingly, we find out that she has received some money from Mrs. Beecher which she used to purchase soap, candles, and a privacy screen. What would provoke Mrs. Beecher to give money to one of her pupils to spend personally while her other pupil is struggling to afford necessities to develop a decent school?- Lisa Wilkerson<br />
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I also found it interesting, in "Reports on Western Schools", to see such a contrast in these teachers experiences. I too was wondering, along with Lisa,...if one teacher had very little ameneties, and the other was so well off...why did Mrs. Beecher give money to the teacher that was well off,to spend personally, when the other teacher was struggling to provide even a descent school?--Katie D.<br />
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In regards to Katie's comment, I think Mrs. Beecher gave money to the well off teacher because of personal bias. Mrs. Beecher could have favored one teacher over another. What I also want to know about that document is why did all these women go out West on the frontier to teach, if the conditons out there were so bad? Did these women go out West for adventure and not realize what life on the frontier was like? ~K. Stinson~<br />
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Catharine M. Sedgwick's journal entry "First to None" seemed much more personal than journal entries we have used as sources for this class. For example, contrasting this to Martha Ballards "diary" seems impossible because they read like two different types of sources, though they both have the same name (journal or diary). Is Sedgwick's very personal writing a sign of her affinity towards writing and bottled up private dissatisfaction, or is this more personal style of journal writing a trend in the nineteenth century?-- Kelly Martin<br />
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I agree with Kelly in the fact that Catherine Sedgwick journal is personal. She shows how deeply she feels towards her family. It seems to me that she has some regret in not getting married. Her brothers have replaced her as women of the house with their wives. She has lost her status as the house maiden. I get the feeling that she may even be jealous of the affections shown by her brothers to their wives. It must have been hard to go from being the adored sister to the old spinster.---Cheryl<br />
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Going along with Kelly and Cheryl, this very personal journal really struck me. It's almost refreshing to read Sedgwick's experiences and feelings and emotions compared to some of the others we've read. She's almost allows for us to be able to relate to her more. Sometimes, for me at least, it's easy to read historical accounts and be completed disconnected from what I'm reading. But pieces like this one, as cheesy as it sounds, gives life to these people. Sedgwick's regret and maybe even jealousy, as Cheryl suggested, is something we can all relate to, even if indirectly. -- Vanessa Smiley<br />
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In her letter from Lowell Harriet Farley writes about the "Yankee spirit" of the women in the mills. She writes using the rhetoric of the revolution (like we discussed in class) using terms like independence and freedom. It seems that the community of women provided a safe and affirming place for women to further develop and voice their beliefs. --Kelly Martin<br />
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Although Farley's letter was supposed to defend mill work, it seems to me that Farley was not that happy. She writes that "the girls here are not contented," her feet ache and swell, and that a woman's right hand becomes larger than her left. Maybe this life would still seem better to women who were used to working on farms? - Fiona Cobb<br />
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When I read Farley's piece I thought of it as propaganda for the mill work. Since the journal it was published in was funded by mill owners themselves and this piece was a fictional correspondence. I felt like they had to include some of the negative aspects about mill life (such as their feet ache and swell) to make the piece seem more credible and realistic but the overall message was to defend the work. Any time they said something negative about the work, it was always countered with a positive that outweighed the bad point. --Alex K. <br />
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While it was a step forward in the fact that some able women were able to leave the farms and work in mills and plants such as the one in Lancaster, I think it is important to remember that it was men who controlled these operations. The rules of the houses were quite rigid as to how quiet a woman must be upon entering the house, where a woman was to sit at the table, and how a woman was to behave at meal times, etc. --E. Hufford<br />
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Reading the petition of the Cherokee women was upsetting. The women ask the chiefs and warriors of the council to reconsider parting the land which they once owned before the US government overtook it. The women do not understand what else they must do to be accepted into white culture. They express their advances from a "savage" nation to a "civilized" one. To hear them use those terms while speaking of themselves was hard to read. --E. Hufford<br />
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Emma Willard's letter to her sister is really pretty amusing. It sounds like a really horrible thing to say to a sister about to get married, but on the other hand it doesn't sound that different than what a lot of newly divorced people would say today. -- Allison Johnson<br />
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Emma Willard shows herself as a very caring older sister who wants to protect her younger sister from getting hurt. I like the way Emma tries to soften her blows to Mr. L’s character but at the same time makes it plain to her sister that a marriage to him would be a mistake.--- Cheryl<br />
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I agree Allison. I thought the letter was pretty interesting, especially after reading that Emma herself married someone who gambled away her money later on in life. It seems that she needed to follow her own advice. As far as the letter goes, I suppose it was a good thing to go into a marriage with some form of skepticism since a woman’s reputation was such a key factor in determining her place in society.—Kaitlyn G.<br />
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I too thought that Emma Willard's letter was amusing, considering that she ranted on about marriage and men, especially that she had not even met the guy yet. It sounded to me a lot like some women today's views on men and matrimony. I thought that, amusing though it was, it said a lot about the unhappiness of Emma's marriage and the changing ideas of family and marriage. In most of the letters we had read previously the center pieces in the writer's mind were her children and husband. Emma only briefly mentions her husband and child and the husband only in a complaining sort of way. --Mary P.<br />
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It is so amazing that Amelia Knight crossed the Oregon Trail, and faced all the tribulations that this included, while pregnant! She cared for the children, walked long distances, and kept a fairly useful log of there trip with only a few mentions of being "sick." Also I really found her comments about the "romantic" hills covered with snow amusing. She can't help but put a little of her personality into this log while most of the diaries we have read have been fairly dry. -- Allison Johnson<br />
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I thought Knight's log of her journey was quite fascinating as well, and I was totally surprised to find out that she was pregnant at the end! What a trooper. However, throughout the whole thing, I could not help but think that the next entry was going to say “Your oxen have died while fording the river” or “You have died of dysentery.” I suppose it’s fortunate for Amelia that my weird sense of humor didn’t play out and that she made it to Oregon after what was as her log describes as a tiresome, grueling journey. –Kaitlyn G.<br />
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I loved Knight's diary! I thought it was a unique perspective on what we know and learn about the Oregon Trail. I know everyone played that game when they were little, and that obviously aided our understanding of the dangerous trip, so reading about what this woman actually went through was fascinating. I'm astonished that this woman, after being so "sick" throughout the entire trip and after caring for all of her other children, was able to survive and give birth to an eighth kid. Now that's girl power. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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In Catherine Beecher’s housekeeping manual she discusses the virtue of “system and order” and urges housewives to devote separate days of the week for specific household tasks such as Tuesdays for washing and Wednesday for ironing etc. I was first struck by the wide array of household tasks women were expected to perform and it is clear that maintaining the house was a full time job. While there were many comments on how these advice manuals would add more stress to women’s lives I think they would help women learn how to run their households more efficiently. Beecher emphasizes that women should delegate more tasks to their children and learn how to organize their household items. Women today still seek the same advice on how to stay organized and delegate chores to family members in order to carve out more alone time for themselves. For instance an article I just read in this month’s Self magazine gave 30 tips for how women can get more organized. <br />
After reading Sarah Ayer’s journal entries describing having to uproot her life and move to Massachusetts to live with her husband’s relatives when she became a widow I was surprised that the wife of a physician would have to go through all of this. I assume that Sarah’s husband left no will and she was not put in charge of the estate because it seemed like her only choice was to move in with her husband’s relatives which she was not happy to do. –Caitlin Quinn<br />
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I thought that Sarah Ayer's journal and life were really sad. She lost her first four children, then later her husband, then her home, was separated from her children (who gave her more grief, especially Samuel), moved in with her husbands relatives who she didnt want to live with and all at the age of 40. Then she and her youngest child would die of scarlet fever! Two things were interesting to me though, outside of everything else. Why did she keep moving from house to house? Did no one family want her for very long? Also what happened to the idea of sons being in some way responsible for their widowed mother? If he was old enough to leave home he was old enough to help her. Also what was Sarah doing, why was she away from home? --Mary P.<br />
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Woloch mentions the new ideal of romantic love as the reason to marry made some more hesitant to marry. From my family class last semester we learned that many nineteenth-century women went through a “marriage trauma,” worrying about what would happen if a spouse did not live up to their hopes and high ideals. Because of this singlehood therefore rose, the insistence that marriage should be based on love implied that it's immoral to marry for other reasons and that marriage based on love/companionship spurred some to call for more liberal divorce laws. Maybe this was a bit later in the century though. --Alex K.<br />
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If a person today were to ask the common middle class wife during the early 1800s about the 'equality of the sexes,' I wonder if her response would be like Beecher's, who wrote"THe discussion of the question of the equality of the sexes, in intellectual capacity, seems both frivolous and useless, not only because it can never be decided, but because there would be no possible advantage in the decision." (pg 148). I guess people were discussing this topic, albeit in an 'intellectual capacity,' but to what extent were people discussing it, and where? I assume they just entertained the idea as a sort of fiction, or dream-like possibility. Its interesting to see that she would write there would be no possible advantage in an equality, certainly it tells me that the conception of a society of equality really didn't make much sense to her. Also, in the intro to her section, there was slight discussion of the 'professionalisation' of being a housewife, a notion that is occasionally seen today. I've heard some people trying to estimate how much money a modern housewife would earn if she was paid, and its always some high amount. Harriet Farley made an interesting observation about life in the mill: "You ask if the girls are contented here: I ask you, ifyou now of any one who is perfectly contented." (pg 179). I guess thats all she knows, and for her, there might not be much point in imagining it to be any better. -Christopher Plummer<br />
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Just a quick thought to the question of to what extent people where discussing "equality of the sexes" and where, I think that perhaps they did it in a similar fashion that we saw in the letters of Abigail Adams. As Christopher says, entertaining the idea as sort of fiction, toying with the idea but not necessarily having substance behind the discussion. But in the same matter, I'd also like to think that there were those revolutionaries who took it, or wanted to take it, that one step further into a serious discussion. -- Vanessa Smiley<br />
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The excerpt from Caroline Gilman's novel was one of the few accounts I've read which is specifically about adjusting to married life. I particularly enjoyed her advice for dealing with men: "How clear it is, then, that woman loses by petulance and recrimination! Her first study must be self-control, almost to hypocrisy." What struck me as interesting is that many women today would give similar advice to young brides. Today, however, it is typically made clear that selective feminine submission can be used as a source of power. For example, think about how often, both in real life and in film and television, references are made to the necessity of humoring men to let them think they are in control.-- Ashley H.<br />
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I thought that document entitled "A Choctaw Mission School" was very interesting. The teachers seemed very kind and caring towards the Indian students and did not try to force the students to forget their native ways. I also noticed that Indian students quickly picked up the ways of Christianity and became concerned about their family members who were not Christian. What I want to know is how these girls fit back in with their families after they finished at this school. They had experienced something their family members had not and I wonder if these girls felt that they were now somehow better than their family because they had been to a "white school". ~K. Stinson~<br />
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The woman I felt bad for was Mary Ballou. Reading her account of life out in the Gold Rush territory sounded awful. She was far away from her loved ones and laboring in a boarding house. It just did not seem like the life that anyone traveling out west to get rich would be expecting and I couldn't help but feel sorry for the poor woman. I was also intrigued as to how often she referenced her faith and how "no one but her maker knows her feelings." It must have been absolutely terrible. --Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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Maybe I was just seeing it tonight, but so many of these women seemed so miserable and trapped in their situations. I've always known women's lives were difficult and unhappy, but that was the big theme I'm taking away from all of this. Emma Willard seemed very unhappy with the marriage situation, Catharine Sedgwick seemed lost and miserable as a single woman, Sarah Ayer's suffering was evident in the list of deaths alone but she describes crying as she writes, the girls in the Choctaw school--especially Hannah Bradshaw and her sister Frutilla Townsley seemed miserable and sad. The author writing in the Lowell Offering carefully dodges her friend's question about contentedness, claiming no one is content because she cannot write she is content, and admits that the work "tried her patience" until she became numb to it. I'm not expecting a rose garden, but this was the theme I was seeing.--A. Meyer<br />
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I also noticed that in the readings this week many of the women were feeling miserable, trapped or useless (useless such as the Cherokee Women resisting removal and failing in their attempts). I was wondering if maybe they are feeling more miserable because they are seeing the changes going on around them but the changes aren't always necessarily working to their advantage?- Elizabeth Frank <br />
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I found the Sioux Tale "A Woman who Kills her Daughter" very interesting. However, I'm curious has to how it fits with the rest of these stories. I understand that the evil mother gets what she deserves for her feels for her son in law and killing her daughter over it, but it seems sort of out of place among the rest of the entries.- Elizabeth Frank</div>Efran6hihttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=Week_8_Questions/CommentsWeek 8 Questions/Comments2007-10-16T18:51:05Z<p>Efran6hi: New page: I found it interesting in ''Women Alone: Property and Personalism'' how women expressed their displeasure with family members openly in their wills by leaving them out or adding conditions...</p>
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<div>I found it interesting in ''Women Alone: Property and Personalism'' how women expressed their displeasure with family members openly in their wills by leaving them out or adding conditions to the inheritance. Meanwhile men, when writing their wills, adhered to a basic format. I liked how the author made clear that even though women were limited in their influence and power in legal and political rights, they asserted their power through their wills. - Elizabeth Frank <br />
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In Woloch we are shown that in New England it was easier for women to receive a divorce from the courts than it was in the Chesapeake region. I actually found this surprising. Because New England was formed around strict religious ideals I expected that divorce would be harder to get approved of. I understand that divorce was given based on if a woman was abused, if adultery was committed or if a wife or husband was left for an extended period without contact from the other. HOWEVER, why was it less difficult to get a divorce in a region with such strong foundations in religion? I feel like I'm missing a connection someplace in there.- Elizabeth Frank</div>Efran6hihttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=Week_7_Questions/CommentsWeek 7 Questions/Comments2007-10-11T00:48:12Z<p>Efran6hi: </p>
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<div>In the reading from Woloch's book, part of Martha Ballard's diary, I thought it was great how Martha didn't even begin her career until age 42,had six kids,and had several careers such as a housewife, slaughtered livestock, spun flax, produced candles and soap, knitted cloathing, pieced quilts, raised chickens, milked cows, fed pigs, and grew vegetables. Martha also ran a buisy local practice as a healer and midwife, and did much more! This was a remarkable women in my eyes.-Katie D.<br />
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In the reading from Woloch's book, part of Martha Ballard's diary, I liked how her diary was at once a professional log, a family record, and a community record, because of her continual involvement with clients, neighbors, and local happenings.- Katie D.<br />
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I also liked how her diary was a log not only for herself and her family but also for her community. While reading the entries it was clear that she was writing it not only for herself because of how she records the details, like who is sick, who gave birth etc. I found it interesting that it was a midwife who seemed to be keeping logs of the town and not a man in some other professional field within the town.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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I thought it was interesting too how her diary did cover all points of her life, not just about her being a good wife or a good mother or a good midwife or what have you. That was one aspect of her diary that stood out from the diaries we have looked at previously. The diaries from the other periods seemed more concerned with making the writer look like a good Christian or the proper woman of the time, like she wrote it because she knew that it would be read some day and that she wanted to make sure her decendants knew what a wonderful person she was. While Martha Ballard may have had the same intention it also seems as though she wanted to keep the record more for herself and her children then to show how good she was. --Mary P.<br />
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In her diary, Martha Ballard mentions a man by the name of Mr. Ballard a couple of times, which I’m assuming is her husband. I was curious as to how much control he actually had over her life. I got the impression that midwives were usually widows or were unattached to a man. Does that make her case unusual? She is very independent and very busy, and she seems to do a lot of her healing and midwife duties on her own. -- Jennifer Feldhaus<br />
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--Yes, it was common 18th century practice for a husband and wife to address each other as "Mr. Smith" and "Mrs. Smith" even when writing to each other. Although, the emergence of companionate marriage in some relationships did change that. A more interesting question to me is, in what ways did the Ballards' marriage show signs of the emergence of companionate marriage?.--A. Meyer<br />
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In response to Jennifer about Mr. Ballard, who I too assume is her husband, I suppose that he had as much control over some aspects of her life as most men did over their wives. But I also got the impression that he is not always/not often at home. Frequently she wrote about him being off surveying somewhere. But also Martha was an older woman, who had already given birth to children, who did have a vocation and so she did have probably slightly more control then most. At the same time however, she is still known as Mrs. Martha Ballard and her role as a housewife and mother and grandmother takes presidence over her role as a midwife. --Mary P.<br />
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I think Martha uses the name Mr. Ballard, who I am sure is her husband, out of respect and love for her husband as the provider and business man that he is. I know when I was young it was not uncommon for couple who were elderly at that time to refer to themselves as Mr. Smith and Mrs. Smith. Also couples who were business people tended to call each other by their formal names. I am a big fan of the old T.V. series The Walton’s. The Godseys were characters in the show that called each other Mr. Godsey and Mrs. Godsey. They didn’t often use their first name when they where addressing each other. ---Cheryl<br />
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I agree somewhat with Cheryl on why Martha refers to her husband as Mr. Ballard, but maybe this use of full names could give us some idea of why she kept the diary. It was obviously not solely for personal pleasure. Maybe she was keeping it so that later on others could understand it if necessary and she wanted to be clear about who she was referring to. She often references how much she paid for certain services or how much she was paid so I can't help but wonder what exactly this diary was kept for. For her own personal recollection? As some sort of family banking account? As proof of particular jobs and payments? -- Allison J<br />
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While reading over Martha's diary online, I was surprised to read the section about Martha's son and eventual daughter-in-law. The couple had a child out of wedlock but the courts were less concerned with their immoral behavior but rather identifying the father so that the community would not be responsible for supporting the mother and child. Is this evidence of the ongoing shift from a religious to a secular society ? --E. Hufford<br />
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Religion still seems to be a very large factor in her life since she notes who in her family went to church on Sunday and she usually gives a clear reason if she doesn't go. She also talks about town meetings during which they decide to hire on preachers, etc. Possibly this concern over the father of the illegitimate child really is just a concern about money. At this time there would obviously be no government programs for single mothers or illegitimate children so something had to be done. Maybe this situation just shows that premarital sex did happen and it happened frequently enough that the community knew that it was important to take action before they were saddled with a child to care for. -- Allison J <br />
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When reading Martha's diary dated the 9th of July 1806, I was appalled when reading of the Purrinton murders. I was shocked in the sense that one does not usually attribute such horrific behavior to that time. Many people today blame suicide-homicides on the society in which we live. I found it intersting and horrifying that such atrocities did happen even two hundred years ago.--E. Hufford<br />
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I have been reading a lot of medical history lately and I found Martha’s diary passages in the winter very interesting in the fact that she gives good details on her ailments. The details are so good it makes me wonder if the fact there are many times during the winter when they are feeling fatigued and colicky that maybe it might be due to lack of a completely balanced diet. Often in the 1700s and 1800s fruits and vegetables are not very abundant. This food items are very high in various vitamins and minerals our body needs. Some of the symptoms Martha wrote about fit some of the vitamin deficiency diseases I am studying. ---Cheryl<br />
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What I would like to know is how Martha Ballard had the time to run her own household and take care of her own family as well as be a busy midwife. She seemed to be on call all the time and at the end of the diary entry in the Woloch book, she said she lost 42 nights of sleep that year! ~Katherine Stinson~<br />
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In response to Katherine's comment I think Martha had more time to focus on being a midwife because her children were all grown up by this time so she did not have to spend anytime on child rearing. I researched her a bit more and found out that she wrote at night while her family slept so she was not spending time during the day on these entries. <br />
Martha Ballard is a wonderful example of an 18th century woman who was not only a dutiful wife and mother but also had a professional role in her community as midwife and healer for thirty years. I found it remarkable that she kept her diary for such a long period of time and made daily entries. Martha also seemed to be very sick throughout some of these years but that did not stop her from performing all her household and professional duties. –Caitlin Quinn<br />
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In Woloch's excerpt, I noticed that though the year she delivered 28 babies and 17 of them were "daughters" that is a lot of female babies. Was there something in this town's water that made them all girls? I also would have liked to read about how many of these babies survived the year, and how their mothers were doing. Why did she tell us the number of daughters? Does that show us that she values girl babies over boy babies? Could it be that she was just using short hand and telling us how many of one sex is easier than how many of both? -- Julie Castanien<br />
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I also would like to comment on how cool that website was that had her entire diary. It provided an excellent way of seeing the source first hand while still making it understandable. -- Julie Castanien<br />
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I agree with Julie, I liked how the site explained her dating system and the way she spelled her words. It made it much easier to understand what she was writing. - Elizabeth Frank<br />
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I'm curious about the qualifications for being a midwife. I assume training was fairly informal and reputation seemed to be the only resume. The Woloch reading refers to another, less trustworthy midwife "Mrs. Smith." Why was Smith not trusted? What was the difference between Smith and Ballard?-- Kelly Martin<br />
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Becoming a midwife seemed to be one of the few ways women could achieve status in the eighteenth century community. I wonder if this contributed to Ballard's desire to seek the role later in life. --Kelly Martin<br />
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There seemed to be little mention of her husband, I wonder why that it is. Maybe he was busy or nothing worth noting happened? I guess since Martha already had six kids, she knew pretty much all one could know about having children, so midwifery seemed like a logical thing for her do. It certainly kept her busy, since she delivers a couple kids every month. The editor characterizes other midwives as 'competitors,' which I found interesting. The thought of midwifery usually doesn't bring competition and economics to my mind. -Christopher Plummer<br />
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Chris raises an interesting question, did many areas have multiple midwives? The Ballards' Augusta-area home seemed to be more on the frontier...--A. Meyer</div>Efran6hihttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=Week_6_Questions/CommentsWeek 6 Questions/Comments2007-10-03T22:04:09Z<p>Efran6hi: </p>
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<div>In the reading by Eve Korkfield titled Judith Sargent Murray: The Story of Margaretta, I thought it was interesting, while tracing her education, that Mr. Vigillius's wife pronounced her to be "a perfect mistress; her knowledge of the English, and French tongues, was fully adequate to her years; and her manner of reading had peculiar charms; her handwriting was neat and easy; she was a good accomptant...and much more. Margaretta was quite the accomplisher! - Katie D.<br />
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In the reading from Catherine Scholten, it was interesting to me how during the colonial period pregnant women were commonly thought of as "breeding" and "teeming", though theologians attributed dignity to carrying the "living soul" of a child. -Katie D.<br />
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In Catherine Scholten's account of the change that took place in childbirth procedures I had a question occur to me. While obviously the new medical science allowed doctors to help reduce the pain and risk of childbirth, why did they not let women train in this new medically accepted field? I understand that men thought that women wouldn't be able to understand all the technical terms and the sciences that the training would occur, but at the same time, women had been delivering the children through midwifery long before men came into the field. Wouldn't it have made more sense to simply train the women who already knew a great deal about birthing in the new sciences so that the woman giving birth would still be comfortable and the death rates in birth would go down?- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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In the excerpt from Susanna Rowson’s: “Charlotte. A Tale of Truth” she writes about the tragic story of a young girl who leaves her family and friends behind for an Army Lieutenant she falls in love with. In the preface Rowson explains that she wrote the novel to warn parents about what could happen to their daughters as well as for young women who could find themselves in a situation similar to Charlottes. I really enjoyed reading this piece because even though Rowson wrote it in 1794 I found it easy to relate to the dilemma Charlotte was having over wanting to please her parents but at the same time trying to follow her heart. It is interesting to see that women today still feel many of the same pressures Charlotte felt in the 1790s. For instance many women are still concerned about choosing a husband who is accepted by their friends and family and it can split families apart when a woman defies her parents and marries someone who they find unsuitable. Many men today are also careful about respecting the wishes of their future in-laws by asking her father for permission to marry.--Caitlin Quinn<br />
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I also found "Charlotte. A Tale of Truth" interesting but what I found most interesting was the image that was shown of the Army Lieutenant. Susanna Rowson writes his character as a less than wonderful man, after all Charlotte told him she wouldn't go with him because of her duty to her parents but he picked her up and took her anyway, at this point it seemed to be against her will. And once in America he left her alone the majority of the time and in the end instead of dying in the arms of her "love" she died in the arms of her dad (which was still very touching). Was Susanna warning girls against dishonoring her parents or keeping an eye out for men who would tell them what they wanted to hear in order to achieve their goals? - Elizabeth Frank</div>Efran6hihttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=Week_4_Questions/CommentsWeek 4 Questions/Comments2007-09-20T02:19:56Z<p>Efran6hi: </p>
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<div>I found David Brainerd’s “A Remarkable Instance of Awakening” to be implausible. His accounts focused on the ideal response when converting non-believers i.e. confession of sin and realization of God’s power. These outcomes seem almost too good to be legitimate. The one example that threw a red flag up for me was when he said a young Indian convert of his laid flat on the ground after his service praying incessantly in her native language which he translated as, “have mercy on me, and help me to give you my heart”. Wouldn’t that be the ultimate form of flattery if your sermons were so good that they could make someone publicly display such compassion?- Lisa Wilkerson<br />
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I got extremely frustrated while reading the examination of Abigail Hobbs at Salem Prison under “The ‘Casco Girls’ Accuse George Burroughs, 1692” in MP. First off, Abigail’s testimony contradicts itself so many times that it becomes quite obvious, at least to me, that she is lying. Why wasn’t this obvious to the Judge? Why wasn’t faulty testimony penalized? I thought these accusers were supposed to be hard-nosed Christians. If this were true how did they live with themselves knowing they committed a sin (LYING) in order to convict an innocent person?- Lisa Wilkerson<br />
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Lisa, in response to your question as to why none of the judges were bothered by the obvious contradictions in Abigail's testimony, you have to remember that she was acting out physically (distracting) and believing her was convenient to the judges for political reasons. --A.Meyer <br />
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Do you believe there is enough evidence of a connection to the threat of Indian raids to support Norton's theory about the Casco Bay connection to Salem? Does this make the idea of conversion hysteria more understandable? When I read Norton's In the Devil's Snare for another class last year(the longer book version of this essay) I was left wondering if the some of the Casco girls were more suffering from trauma or post-traumatic stress disorder. --A. Meyer <br />
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I found "Landon Carter Complains About His Female Slaves, 1771-1773" in Major Problems page 82 & 83 rather shocking for many obvious reasons. Beyond this, the disparity between the treatment of African women and white women of the period is frightful. While colonial women may have had little power, it pales in comparison to the hopelessly bleak situation of the African female. I am sure that cowkeeping was not commonly thought to be a female task of the period. This task, along with many others, also carried the promise of whipping for failure. Based on the writing, it seems to be believe that whipping was the only cure for "poor" behavior. The same ideals of female submission were also applied with greater force, illustrated in the writing "The mother and sister fell on Beale when he went to apply my Prescription; but by the stumps of the switches they got also cured of their rebellious impudence..." (MP 83) It was with slavery that the submission of a race, especially with a focus to the women, was to be furthered. --Robert Kopp<br />
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This is in response about Landon Carter’s account of cowkeeping. Unfortunately, we don’t know the whole story as to why Sicely neglected her task. We only have Landon Carter’s account of the ordeal. Thus we are looking at this situation through the eyes of Landon Carter. How do we know if he didn’t manipulate or exaggerate this account to his benefit? May be he cried when his cow died. Perhaps Sicely had better things to do with her time than to cowkeep. Landon Carter did mention that she took a nap, perhaps she had a late night gathering of friends and relatives as this was the only time she could exert her freedom and her individuality from the day’s mindless tasks. Or maybe she was simply defiant to authority and paid no mind to her tasks regardless of the punishment. This may be her way to exert her freedom at the cost of getting the whip. I wish I could read her account of this situation maybe it would shed more light about her perceptions of slavery, her feelings,doubts, and insecurities then we would have the overall picture instead of a one sided view of an Elite.—John Furner<br />
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I agree it is a shame we don't have the slaves account on all this. Personally after reading Landon Carters complaint's, I believe a saint would even be whipped. This man has seroius power issues and takes them out on those who are not able to defend themselves.--Cheryl<br />
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In MP, page 55, the Trial of Bridget Bishop, I just found it interesting that while she was being "indicted for bewitching of several persons in the neighborhood," that there was "little occasion to prove the witchcraft; it being evident and notorious to all beholders." The girl has no hope! The court says that no real evidence is needed to prove what Bishop has supposedly done because apparently anyone can tell she's a witch. Even then, the court is basing their decision on the opinions of others instead of solid, factual evidence. Although, it's important to note that this took place in 1692 in Salem Town, so this incident sits among many during this "witch hunt." So maybe they were getting witch-convicting happy. -- Vanessa Smiley<br />
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I agree that this selection really shows the hysteria and paranoia of the 1692 trials. It also has several examples of "spectral evidence." The court didn't need real evidence because the spectral evidence was enough for them to convict. - Fiona C.<br />
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Elizabeth Sandwith Drinker (MP page 80) was a wealthy Philadelphian woman. But more than that, she is the textbook stereotype for women of her social class. In her diary, she describes her work and the work of other women around her. This work includes making baby clothes, knitting, plating, ironing, "[measuring] the Girls for Stays," and quilting, among other things. As much as some people would like to branch off from those stereotypes and look at those unique, powerful women, sometimes we just have to accept the fact that those stereotypes we steer away from were true to life back during that time period. -- Vanessa Smiley<br />
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I think Eliabeth life is an ideal one. She wants for nothing. She as chances to socialize with her peers. It doesn't appear that she is bored. It makes me wonder why anyone would want to steer away from that sterotype.--Cheryl<br />
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I don't really agree with that statement. I don't think we can tell from her diary because she really didn't include her feelings. It was mostly just a listing of what tasks she does each day. She may have been happy but I don't think we can know from that. --Alex K.<br />
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When reading Malefactors and Complainants in Woloch, I was wondering why the men who helped the women to fornicate or misbehave don't get into trouble except for the couple who both confessed their guilt together. Weren't women supposed to be the weaker, non intellgent gender in that day and age? Shouldn't the men be getting the punishment, after all they are the smarter ones that were all powerfull.--Cheryl<br />
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I found the narrative of Old Elizabeth to be quite an emotional one. Though she was one of a kind, her experience as a slave child must have been shared by many. Imagine what it was like to be separated from your family, the only familiar aspect of life in a foreign land. She was willing to risk of the consequences of running away to just see her mother for a short period of time. This is only a fraction of the hardship and heartbreak felt by many other slave families.--E. Hufford<br />
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Landon Carter complains that it is impossible to make his slaves work. Encouragement nor punishment have any effect on his them. Clearly, there was no motivation for them to work. What were they were working toward? Freedom was not an option. Many were separated from their families and in despair. I found it interesting that Carter does not seem to understand this or that he does not want to understand this.--E. Hufford<br />
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I found Karin Wulf's piece interesting because it spoke to those poorer, unmarried or widowed women and how they made ends meet. There were options available for women to earn an income if you fell into those categories. Draper for example was able to be a tavernkeeper. It's interesting how Wulf states, "As independent women, they could act legally and economically in ways that their married sisters, bound to coverture, could not. I wonder if some women took this into account and because of this decided not to marry at all. --Alex K.<br />
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I know as historians we shouldn't ask "what if" but, could Anne Hutchinson have won her trial if she hadn't mentioned that God spoke to her? She was going so strong and then as soon as she said that the Governor replies that "the case is altered" and they immediately banish her. - Fiona C.<br />
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I think that if Anne Hutchinson had not specifically said God spoke to her she would have been acquitted but because of the beliefs of the puritans that God no longer spoke to people directly that admission by her became their whole case against her and was the sole reason for banishment. ~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
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I agree with Cheryl that the rules seem to contradict themselves when they say that fortification or misbehavior should be punished no matter the gender, and women were punished harsher. But perhaps it goes back to the idea that while men were "smarter" and both admit guilt that it was the woman's fault because of the idea that women were filled with sin, as evidenced in the Bible when Eve disobeyed God and ate the forbidden fruit (if i remember this is a belief that was still around at that time), and men were easily swayed by women (as perhaps they believed Adam was). So since the original sin in the Bible was committed by a woman, and it was a religious society, perhaps men were less punished because it was believed that they were seduced by the evils of women. - Elizabeth Frank</div>Efran6hihttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=Week_3_Questions/CommentsWeek 3 Questions/Comments2007-09-11T01:39:47Z<p>Efran6hi: </p>
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<div>In Early American Women, the essay by Susanna Wesely made me feel thankful I was brought up the way I was. I disagree with her methods of controling children. I don't believe in programing children to be the way a parent wishes. I do agree with some of her her principles however. I think children should be praised everytime they behave correctly or are obediant. I believe children should be taught to be respectful to other's property. I don't think children need to be preforming the same routine every day regardless if it is in eating, sleeping ect. In Wesely's essay, she herself noted that when the children had to be at seperate houses when their home was destroyed by fire, that when they were reunited under one roof again, they aquired some bad behaviors. Perhaps if Wesely weren't so strict with her routines and ridgid discipline, her children may have come back with fewer negative influences.--Cheryl<br />
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I definitely agree with Cheryl I was very glad my parents were not that strict. I think what got me the most was how the essay described how the mother would break the free will of the kids. - Elizabeth Frank<br />
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I also was very shocked when I read the account of Abigail Bailey and 1) she had 17 kids and 2) her husband tried having a relationship beyond a fatherly one. The account definitely showed how helpless a woman was when discovering her husband doing something wrong. In the intro to the account it says that she got her husband arrested but with the help of her brothers. But would she have been able to have him arrested without her brothers assistance?- Elizabeth Frank</div>Efran6hihttps://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=Reading_Questions/commentsReading Questions/comments2007-08-29T19:59:24Z<p>Efran6hi: New page: I don't think the reading covered this so i was curious if anyone else knew- How did the study of women specifically in history begin? did it begin with the feminist movements?- Elizabeth ...</p>
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<div>I don't think the reading covered this so i was curious if anyone else knew- How did the study of women specifically in history begin? did it begin with the feminist movements?- Elizabeth<br />
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Why would the feminist movement be thought of as damaging to Women's Studies? I would think that it would be a positive thing so that women can see where they've been and how they could advance. - Elizabeth</div>Efran6hi Deprecated: header(): Passing null to parameter #3 ($response_code) of type int is deprecated in /home/umwhisto/public_html/mcclurken/wiki/includes/WebResponse.php on line 38