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Deprecated: header(): Passing null to parameter #3 ($response_code) of type int is deprecated in /home/umwhisto/public_html/mcclurken/wiki/includes/WebResponse.php on line 38 https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/api.php?action=feedcontributions&feedformat=atom&user=72.209.223.69McClurken Wiki - User contributions [en]2026-09-18T23:18:46ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.22.0https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=Week_15_Questions/CommentsWeek 15 Questions/Comments2007-12-06T05:25:04Z<p>72.209.223.69: </p>
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<div>One of the things that stood out to me during these readings was in "The Office Clerk" when the office manager was listing all of the reasons women were superior towards men for these positions. Among these reasons were that they almost always present for the work day and not making up silly excuses for an absence and the precision that they conducted their work in. I found it surprising that this man had such high praise for women. Could he have been saying this to the interviewer (Clara Lanza) to appease the female crowd who would be reading her article? Or did he really feel this way towards his female workers? Did the fact that companies could get away with paying women less than men factor into this appreciation for women clerks? - Elizabeth Frank<br />
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I found the article "Objections to Domestic Service" in that Lucy Salmon polled servants and their employers and from that managed to come up with a list of disadvantages. These disadvantages were an effort to dissuade young, American born women from entering this type of service. Such "industrial disadvantages" include "lack of all opportunity for promotion," "lack of organization in the service," "irregularity in working hours," "competition with the foreign born and the negro element," and "the interference with work often by those less skilled than the workers themselves." I can understand Salmon's reasoning for wanting to keep women from working as domestic servants. However, I'm slightly confused when she comments on how with the professions of seamstresses, clerks, trained nurses, and teachers can lead to promotions in the working environment. So in that sense, Salmon is urging women to pursue jobs other than domestic servitude. But is she at all encouraging them to return to the home? -- Vanessa Smiley<br />
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I think, in response to Vanessa's question, that Lucy Salmon felt that she was encouraging women to return to the home. Where else would they be if not in the work place? They would be at home with their housework and their families. By expressing the disadvantages of the working world she was able to show women what they would be missing from their home if they joined the workforce, without listing all the things to be done at home and the need to be at home. For some that would probably encourage them to work. Also I think that Lucy Salmon was well aware that the majority of women in the workforce were working because they had to to support their families and they would return to the home if it was possible. --Mary P.<br />
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I liked the interview contained in Lucy Maynard Salmon’s piece called "Objections to Domestic Service". I thought it was interesting that the girl answering the question “Why do girls dislike domestic service?” says that factory workers are smarter, make better wives, and have cleaner homes while domestic workers that get married become careless and lazy with their housework even though that was their job before marriage and they should probably know how to do it well. I don’t think she really has any proof of this, it’s more about reassuring herself and everyone else that she is in fact a good candidate for marriage. She probably saw marriage as a way out of factory work.-- Jennifer Feldhaus<br />
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In Julia Ward Howe's writing under "The Joys of Activism," whether this is intended as propaganda or not, it certainly could be and nicely done. I love how she describes the moment she realized that women could and should do better than where they were. "During the first two thirds of my life I looked to the masculine ideal of character as the only true one... In an unexpected hour a new light came to me... The new domain now made clear to me was that of true womanhood - woman no longer in her ancillary relation to her opposite, man, but in her direct relation to the divine plan and purpose, as a free agent, fully sharing with man every human right and every human responsibility." She's certainly encouraging any that read this that she 'saw the light' you could say and the reader can have these realizations too. -- Vanessa Smiley<br />
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I found "Working Women Debate Woman Suffrage" very interesting, especially the entries from "Americus". The person writing these seemed to be extremely bitter towards men. She states that "we won't stay at home any more and cook and wash dishes either; we've done it long enough; let 'him' do it a little while."(Woloch 366) It just seems like she's extremely bitter that women do so much work with raising children and keeping the house clean, but men appear to go out have a good time with their friends and thats it. -Elizabeth frank<br />
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When reading "We Are All Bound up Together," I found it telling when Frances Ellen Harper related her story of life after losing her husband. She was left with four children and no money. Someone even took her to court over a bed. She then discusses how if she had been a man, she would have been remarried by now and would not be facing economic hardship. --E. Hufford<br />
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Isabel Eaton really exemplifies the challenge black men and women faced in finding jobs. There was no guarentee that they would get a job and often times they settled for domestic service. Even if they were educated, "white help" was always preferred. Many people gave up trying to find work outside of the domestic service branch because of this ideology. Black men and women were also refused domestic jobs because of the color of their skin in many cases. --E. Hufford<br />
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Going along with the comment above me, I thought Isabel Eaton's survey of black servant workers was really interesting. The fact that she learned black men and women stuck with domestic servitude regardless of how terrible the job was because they feared rejection is just heartbreaking. I also was intrigued by how one of the reasons they gave to themselves about rejection for domestic servitude was because "if the mistresses has bad luck with one colored girl they won't never have another." It's just a terrible understanding and way of living and it really shows how, even though they were emancipated and technically free, it was like they were still slaves, except this time they were being paid a very minimal amount of money. -Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I agree with both comments pertaining to Isabel Eaton's account of black workers. Their situation was really a horrible and sad thing. I think it's also interesting to note that Eaton was conducting her survey in the North where many people fought against slavery, yet, as Kelly said, the people participating in the survey were essentially still slaves.--Kaitlyn G.<br />
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I found Leonora Barry's piece on the Knights of Labor to be very interesting. I thought that it showed many of the characteristics mentioned by some of the other readings, the fact that she was a widow with three children for example. She seemed however, to be a very strong woman, one who embrassed her work and her position as master workman. What I found really interesting was that she and others went around educating the children in the factories and such and pushing for the children who are working to be educated in an effort to erase the social and economic situation that causes the circumstances that drive mothers into the workplace. --Mary P.<br />
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I also thought the "Office Clerk" by Clara Lanza was an interesting document. I thought it was particularly intersting how it said that women never complained about things like "...the temperature of the building [being] too hot or too cold or that the light is not properly adjusted." Women might not have complained about things like the temperature or light, because they were happy to be able to have a job period that was outside of the home. Men however, could complain about those things and easily get a new job if their current job didn't suit them. ~K. Stinson~<br />
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One trait that I found interesting in “The Office Clerk” was the insistence that office work did not make women unfit for marriage. In fact, the author claims that employment offers these young women the opportunities to meet and wed eligible bachelors, and these working girls often make particularly fine wives. I particularly enjoyed the claim that “men have outgrown their admiration for feminine helplessness and have come to look upon independence as something worth having.” I have to wonder how much of that was actually true and how much was simply the hope of the female author. Unfortunately, we still have women today who fake ignorance or weakness to attract men; how common would it have been in the 19th century? --Ashley H.<br />
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I also noticed the focus on marriage in "The Office Clerk." In my opinion, the author insisted on this point because she wanted to emphasize that a woman could work as an office clerk and still be a part of the domestic sphere. It showed that, as single woman, it was okay for them to work. It even helped them find a good husband to support them. - F. Cobb<br />
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I particularly enjoyed Sadie Frowne's account of her life as a garment worker in a sweatshop. I associated many of the things she said with stories I remember from older relatives. Much of her story was familiar--the constant machines, the long hours, the appreciation for the union, the freedom of life as an independent factory worker, her immigrant status. But at the same time, many of the details were unique, which made her story feel new. I haven't heard this story about Polish immigrant workers as frequently. I've read stories about days off at pleasure areas like Coney Island, but rarely has the location been Coney Island. Sadie's concerns about not being a socialist or an anarchist make sense in light of the paperwork immigrants had to sign and the great concerns about labor's connections to socialism. I found her acknowledgment that she didn't even know what she was denying very touching. --A. Meyer<br />
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What really struck me about "A Sweatshop Girl's Story" was how Sadie Frowne felt about injuries sustained on the job in factories. From the way she was talking, she made it seem like these injuries were no big deal. If you hurt your finger, you just wrap it with a bit of cotton, if the injury is worse than that, you may have to have that finger amputated, but, you just accept it and go on with your life. Maybe injuries like that were so common in those factories, that it truely was no big deal. ~K. Stinson~<br />
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The excerpt I enjoyed the most was Sadie Frowne's tale, A Sweatshop Girl's Story. Quite a few things stuck out to me. First, I always assumed that women hated working in the factories because all you hear is how back breaking and boring the work is but she seems to take it in stride. She even talks about how nice it was when the union fought and won for them to "only work nine and half hours." She understood that if she worked hard sooner or later she would fulfill her own American Dream (did that concept exist then?). I was wondering when she says, on page 309 that "Harry has seen me home every night for a long time and makes love to me," if she meant pre-marital sex because she says it so non-chalantly. I agree with K. Stinson that I found it very strange how she described getting hurt in the work place as no big deal. Basically the vibe I got from her account was that while she was proud of her independence, her whole life was based around trying to become the accepted middle class girl. She talks about reading and educating herself, saving money, how ignorant people are low, and how a girl needs to have nice clothes in order to get into high society. -- Emily Miller<br />
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In response to Emily's comment on "A Sweatshop Girl's Story," I've read works where "making love" simply referred to wooing or courtship, not necessarily pre-marital sex, so I think it's quite possible that Frowne is using this meaning here. Additionally, I liked this piece for its depiction of a complete life which included work, school, a boyfriend, and entertainment such as dancing and theater. The lives of these women were difficult, but they were not all drudgery. Frowne remarks, "at the end of the day one feels so weak that there is a great temptation to lie right down and sleep. But you must go out and get air, and have some pleasure." I wonder if this attitude was common among the working women, or if this is an unusual example of girlish optimism and enthusiasm for life. --Ashley H.<br />
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I found the letter written by Americus from "Working Women Debate Suffrage" quite intriguing. She mocked equality by chosing to point out the most grotesque male qualities and declaring that now women could partake in them since they were equal. For instance, spitting tobacco, talking in slang, and snoring were all characteristics she declared women could now mimic. Reading this in the sarcastic manner for which it was intended, it can serve as an example of how some working class women saw suffrage as a threat to the familiar. Although many working class women supported equal wages, it did not necessarily mean they wanted the right to vote. In the introduction, Woloch points out that many working class women identified themselves more with their class than their gender, and some of these women felt suffrage only threatened class unity.- Lisa Wilkerson<br />
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I agree with Lisa, these letters really helped me to understand where women against womans suffrage were coming from. Americus is really very interesting and while "spitting tobacco juice upon the trowsers of the gentlemen who pass" is not on the top of my list of things to do, I can understand why she feels threatened. --Allison Johnson<br />
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I also found the Americus letter interesting, since I've had a hard time understanding arguments (beyond the ones from women who preferred to stay at home and were happy with the lives they led) against female-male equality. I've heard arguments about the potential problems with true equality (nursing mothers being drafted, etc)made in a modern sense, but this was one of the first real accounts I'd read of the problems with true equality and suffrage. --A. Meyer<br />
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In response to Lisa and Andrea, though, I was impressed with Ella A. Little's letter to the editor that was a response to Americus. She acknowledged what we had learned, which is that there were women who were completely content with being taken care of by their husbands and happy with the lives they were leading. But I really loved when she went on to address that they knew little about the hardships a majority of women faced and how often these women really wanted to make a change or earn a bit more equality and never had a way to express their interests or desires and voting was the way for them to accomplish those goals. It really must have struck a nerve when she said those women opposed to suffrage must thank their good luck since most women did not have their luxuries. -Kelly Wuyscik <br />
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In Charlotte Perkins Gilman's "The Ills of the Home", she makes a profound observation when she says, "The permanent error of the housewife lies in the assumption that her love for her family makes her service satisfactorily." A mother washes the clothes, fixes the meals, and cleans the house because she loves her family, but that's not saying if she didn't do those things she would love them less. Gilman makes a great point here when she suggests that one of the reasons mothers have so much difficulty entering the workforce is because they are met with such guilt from society; a society which does not comprehend that mothers may interpret these chores as duties and may need to look elsewhere for personal fulfillment.- Lisa Wilkerson<br />
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Reading "We Are All Bound up Together" reminded me of the very first readings we did in this class, which stated that one could not simply study "women's history," because it was a complex topic that had a lot different aspects. This text shows that much, by pointing out that indeed the position of black women was much different than the position of white women. Harper points out an example using the street cars. She notes that white women speak of "rights," but that she is speaking of the wrongs done to her race and gender -that everybody is against her. The article "An Anti-Speaks Out" had an interesting tidbit, saying: "While more practical and sensible women are tyring to put their kitchens...in order.." This makes me wonder what the ration of married to unmarried women are in the suffragist movement compared to the anti-suffragist movement. If I had to guess, it would be that anti-suffragists are more often in a marriage. <br />
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I liked the piece "Political Lessons" by Stanton and Anthony. Both of these women were great and persuasive writers. I know we had talked about how the NWSA did not accept male members, but I was surprised that they explicitly said that men could not join. This piece really shows that that the NWSA was much more militant and aggressive than the AWSA. - F. Cobb<br />
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I was surprised when Barry wrote about child labor in "A Labor Organizer." She mentions that Pennsylvania had 125,00 children under the age of 15 working in workshops, factories and mines. I was surprised their were so many, and what made PA so bad in this respect? I'm glad the Knights of Labor worked to elevate women and put them in the classroom to be educated. --Alex K.<br />
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In "A Sweatshops Girl's Story" I was surprised about how calm she was about all the injuries that took place. She mentions needles going through the nail or finger and sometimes splintering the bone yet doesn't seem to upset by it. Was she just used to it? Did she assume she couldn't do better? Or was it really not all that bad? --Alex K.<br />
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While "Shop Girls and Piece Workers" was not shocking to me, I couldn't help but wonder if it would actually have been shocking to women of the day. I mean, even middle or upper class women had to be aware of what lower class women were doing. So did this book actually shock any one at the time?-- Allison Johnson<br />
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I agree with Lisa's comments on "The Ills of the Home". I do feel that many women must have wished to engage in a skilled labor, especially those of the lower classes. While the need to provide monetary support is undoubtedly a major motivator, its seems the support of societal development also played a part. There seems to be a disconnect between housework and advancing society within the article. I wonder how much this sentiment was shared throughout the female community of the period. --Robert Kopp</div>72.209.223.69https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=Week_7_Questions/CommentsWeek 7 Questions/Comments2007-10-11T03:48:19Z<p>72.209.223.69: </p>
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<div>In the reading from Woloch's book, part of Martha Ballard's diary, I thought it was great how Martha didn't even begin her career until age 42,had six kids,and had several careers such as a housewife, slaughtered livestock, spun flax, produced candles and soap, knitted cloathing, pieced quilts, raised chickens, milked cows, fed pigs, and grew vegetables. Martha also ran a buisy local practice as a healer and midwife, and did much more! This was a remarkable women in my eyes.-Katie D.<br />
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If she didn't start her career as a midwife till she was 42 what was she doing in the mean time? Do we have any records of her earlier years? And i wonder what shaped her choice to become a midwife? --Katelynn V.<br />
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In the reading from Woloch's book, part of Martha Ballard's diary, I liked how her diary was at once a professional log, a family record, and a community record, because of her continual involvement with clients, neighbors, and local happenings.- Katie D.<br />
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I also liked how her diary was a log not only for herself and her family but also for her community. While reading the entries it was clear that she was writing it not only for herself because of how she records the details, like who is sick, who gave birth etc. I found it interesting that it was a midwife who seemed to be keeping logs of the town and not a man in some other professional field within the town.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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Along those lines, I was wondering why she didn't begin keeping a diary until she was 50 years old. Was it because she thought of her diary as more of a log for the community (as Elizabeth put it) and this was the time she was doing the most communal work (after her kids were not so young)? --Alex K.<br />
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Is it possible that she did keep another diary and we just don't have it? Is a pervious journal ever alluded to within the text of her diary? --Katelynn V.<br />
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I thought it was interesting too how her diary did cover all points of her life, not just about her being a good wife or a good mother or a good midwife or what have you. That was one aspect of her diary that stood out from the diaries we have looked at previously. The diaries from the other periods seemed more concerned with making the writer look like a good Christian or the proper woman of the time, like she wrote it because she knew that it would be read some day and that she wanted to make sure her decendants knew what a wonderful person she was. While Martha Ballard may have had the same intention it also seems as though she wanted to keep the record more for herself and her children then to show how good she was. --Mary P.<br />
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I think it's remarkable about how detailed her journal is, and how it really does capture most of her daily activities. I particularly like the very last sentence of the Wolch reading which states "I have been called to the birth of this year past, 28 --seventeen of them were daughters. I have lost 42 nights' sleep this year past." Can you imagine, having the discipline to record you daily activites, or realizing that you had not slept for 42 nights during the year? Although, i wonder how the births of so many baby girls would effect a small community both immediately following thier birth and in the future. Could it lead to skewed gender ratios or later effect marriage possibilities for the young ladies? ---Katelynn V.<br />
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Pardon me if this is common knowledge and I am just out the loop, but who was looking after Margaret's children while her and her husband were away on business? Were they all grown up and out of the house? Were they looking after themselves? I would assume because there is hardly any mention of them, and the fact that Margaret was middle-aged, that they were already grown. Also, it probably would've been a little too risky to go out to care for the sick and come back to children, whose immune systems were already vulnerable. Hmm...I guess I kind of answered my own question...but feel free to sound off if you agree or disagree.- Lisa W.<br />
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In her diary, Martha Ballard mentions a man by the name of Mr. Ballard a couple of times, which I’m assuming is her husband. I was curious as to how much control he actually had over her life. I got the impression that midwives were usually widows or were unattached to a man. Does that make her case unusual? She is very independent and very busy, and she seems to do a lot of her healing and midwife duties on her own. -- Jennifer Feldhaus<br />
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--Yes, it was common 18th century practice for a husband and wife to address each other as "Mr. Smith" and "Mrs. Smith" even when writing to each other. Although, the emergence of companionate marriage in some relationships did change that. A more interesting question to me is, in what ways did the Ballards' marriage show signs of the emergence of companionate marriage?.--A. Meyer<br />
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I believe the Ballard's marriage did show characteristics of a companionate marriage. I think the fact that she mentioned her anniversary among her work notes could show that it is something that she is proud of. Also, Martha was a very active midwife and I do not she could have been without support from her husband. - Fiona C.<br />
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In response to Jennifer about Mr. Ballard, who I too assume is her husband, I suppose that he had as much control over some aspects of her life as most men did over their wives. But I also got the impression that he is not always/not often at home. Frequently she wrote about him being off surveying somewhere. But also Martha was an older woman, who had already given birth to children, who did have a vocation and so she did have probably slightly more control then most. At the same time however, she is still known as Mrs. Martha Ballard and her role as a housewife and mother and grandmother takes presidence over her role as a midwife. --Mary P.<br />
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I think Martha uses the name Mr. Ballard, who I am sure is her husband, out of respect and love for her husband as the provider and business man that he is. I know when I was young it was not uncommon for couple who were elderly at that time to refer to themselves as Mr. Smith and Mrs. Smith. Also couples who were business people tended to call each other by their formal names. I am a big fan of the old T.V. series The Walton’s. The Godseys were characters in the show that called each other Mr. Godsey and Mrs. Godsey. They didn’t often use their first name when they where addressing each other. ---Cheryl<br />
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I agree somewhat with Cheryl on why Martha refers to her husband as Mr. Ballard, but maybe this use of full names could give us some idea of why she kept the diary. It was obviously not solely for personal pleasure. Maybe she was keeping it so that later on others could understand it if necessary and she wanted to be clear about who she was referring to. She often references how much she paid for certain services or how much she was paid so I can't help but wonder what exactly this diary was kept for. For her own personal recollection? As some sort of family banking account? As proof of particular jobs and payments? -- Allison J<br />
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While reading over Martha's diary online, I was surprised to read the section about Martha's son and eventual daughter-in-law. The couple had a child out of wedlock but the courts were less concerned with their immoral behavior but rather identifying the father so that the community would not be responsible for supporting the mother and child. Is this evidence of the ongoing shift from a religious to a secular society ? --E. Hufford<br />
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I think it was less that there was a shift to secularism but more that the state did not want to be economically responsible for the mother and child. The less women in the poor house, the less money the government has to fork over. I'm not sure that it dealt with the church. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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Religion still seems to be a very large factor in her life since she notes who in her family went to church on Sunday and she usually gives a clear reason if she doesn't go. She also talks about town meetings during which they decide to hire on preachers, etc. Possibly this concern over the father of the illegitimate child really is just a concern about money. At this time there would obviously be no government programs for single mothers or illegitimate children so something had to be done. Maybe this situation just shows that premarital sex did happen and it happened frequently enough that the community knew that it was important to take action before they were saddled with a child to care for. -- Allison J <br />
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When reading Martha's diary dated the 9th of July 1806, I was appalled when reading of the Purrinton murders. I was shocked in the sense that one does not usually attribute such horrific behavior to that time. Many people today blame suicide-homicides on the society in which we live. I found it intersting and horrifying that such atrocities did happen even two hundred years ago.--E. Hufford<br />
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I have been reading a lot of medical history lately and I found Martha’s diary passages in the winter very interesting in the fact that she gives good details on her ailments. The details are so good it makes me wonder if the fact there are many times during the winter when they are feeling fatigued and colicky that maybe it might be due to lack of a completely balanced diet. Often in the 1700s and 1800s fruits and vegetables are not very abundant. This food items are very high in various vitamins and minerals our body needs. Some of the symptoms Martha wrote about fit some of the vitamin deficiency diseases I am studying. ---Cheryl<br />
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What I would like to know is how Martha Ballard had the time to run her own household and take care of her own family as well as be a busy midwife. She seemed to be on call all the time and at the end of the diary entry in the Woloch book, she said she lost 42 nights of sleep that year! ~Katherine Stinson~<br />
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In response to Katherine's comment I think Martha had more time to focus on being a midwife because her children were all grown up by this time so she did not have to spend anytime on child rearing. I researched her a bit more and found out that she wrote at night while her family slept so she was not spending time during the day on these entries. <br />
Martha Ballard is a wonderful example of an 18th century woman who was not only a dutiful wife and mother but also had a professional role in her community as midwife and healer for thirty years. I found it remarkable that she kept her diary for such a long period of time and made daily entries. Martha also seemed to be very sick throughout some of these years but that did not stop her from performing all her household and professional duties. –Caitlin Quinn<br />
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In Woloch's excerpt, I noticed that though the year she delivered 28 babies and 17 of them were "daughters" that is a lot of female babies. Was there something in this town's water that made them all girls? I also would have liked to read about how many of these babies survived the year, and how their mothers were doing. Why did she tell us the number of daughters? Does that show us that she values girl babies over boy babies? Could it be that she was just using short hand and telling us how many of one sex is easier than how many of both? -- Julie Castanien<br />
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I also would like to comment on how cool that website was that had her entire diary. It provided an excellent way of seeing the source first hand while still making it understandable. -- Julie Castanien<br />
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I agree with Julie, I liked how the site explained her dating system and the way she spelled her words. It made it much easier to understand what she was writing. - Elizabeth Frank<br />
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I'm curious about the qualifications for being a midwife. I assume training was fairly informal and reputation seemed to be the only resume. The Woloch reading refers to another, less trustworthy midwife "Mrs. Smith." Why was Smith not trusted? What was the difference between Smith and Ballard?-- Kelly Martin<br />
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After reading Kelly's question, I wondered under what conditions midwives were held responsible for the death of an infant or mother in labor. With limited medical knowledge, how was it determined whether a death (or near-death, as in the case of Mrs. Babcock) was the fault of the midwife or a natural event beyond human aid?-- Ashley H.<br />
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I don't understand how Mrs. Smith still remained a midwife. After many botched medical performances, how come her reputation never got smeared? How was she still being called for medical assistance? Since Mrs. Ballard did note some of Mrs. Smith's faulty doings, was there ever anyone that she could consult in order to get her to stop practicing? It seems like Mrs. Smith being in the picture just made for more "clean-up work" for Mrs. Ballard and more trecherous ailments for her patients.- Lisa W.<br />
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Becoming a midwife seemed to be one of the few ways women could achieve status in the eighteenth century community. I wonder if this contributed to Ballard's desire to seek the role later in life. --Kelly Martin<br />
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There seemed to be little mention of her husband, I wonder why that it is. Maybe he was busy or nothing worth noting happened? I guess since Martha already had six kids, she knew pretty much all one could know about having children, so midwifery seemed like a logical thing for her do. It certainly kept her busy, since she delivers a couple kids every month. The editor characterizes other midwives as 'competitors,' which I found interesting. The thought of midwifery usually doesn't bring competition and economics to my mind. -Christopher Plummer<br />
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Chris raises an interesting question, did many areas have multiple midwives? The Ballards' Augusta-area home seemed to be more on the frontier...--A. Meyer<br />
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Did anyone else find the practice of making women swear the identity of their child's father in the height of labor--so it would be the truth--absolutely absurd? What besides fear of death and pain would make the women be truthful?--A. Meyer<br />
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In response to Andrea's question, I agree that it seems like a ridiculous notion to us. With the very real possibility of death in labor, however, perhaps it was believed that a Christian woman wouldn't risk damnation by lying with death possibly moments away.-- Ashley H.<br />
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I also thought it was interesting how much time and effort Ballard put into her work. She often spent a whole day with her patients and sometimes had to travel long distances or in bad weather. In one year she had lost 42 nights of sleep! - Fiona C.<br />
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The one thing that really stuck out to me, was the comment made before the excerpts from Ballad's diary in the Woloch book, was why Martha would be called in for her job as a midwife. When I read, "or took charge after a delivery by a less trustworthy practitioner, like Mrs. Smith, who may have botched the job." This kind of terrifies me. How many women were allowing practitioners to deliver their children at this point? Were there a lot of them? Or were midwives still the common practice? -- Kelly Wuyscik <br />
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Another common theme I found throughout Ballard's diary was disease and death. Not only did three of her own children die in 1769, but her diary is dotted with funerals and deaths. There were seven or eight deaths in the excerpt from the book alone. --Alex K.<br />
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Since Martha Ballard does make mention of her Puritan faith I was wondering what the Church’s view of midwives would be? Would they fall along the lines that birth is a woman’s “curse” and therefore men should have nothing to do with it? Would they uplift the idea of reproduction and life in the form of childbirth? What would be a secular view? Did urban or rural women prefer one practice over the other? Are there any records of how many women relied on their immediate kin for deliveries and not midwives (or doctors later on)? Some of this information was touched upon with last week’s readings, but I wanted to throw these questions out there and see if the answers are similar or different based upon Ballard’s diary and experiences. –Mary Beth D.<br />
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Martha Ballard appears to have become a pillar of her community through her overwhelming work. I noted that the article mentioned a competitor, making me wonder if pay was a factor of her choice to enter midwifery, or if it was due to other factors such as social status. She seemed to not be spared from any of her normal tasks, even with her incredible commitment to her midwifery. I doubt this would be the same case for a man of a similar work load. --Robert Kopp</div>72.209.223.69https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=Week_6_Questions/CommentsWeek 6 Questions/Comments2007-10-04T04:14:44Z<p>72.209.223.69: </p>
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<div>In the reading by Eve Korkfield titled Judith Sargent Murray: The Story of Margaretta, I thought it was interesting, while tracing her education, that Mr. Vigillius's wife pronounced her to be "a perfect mistress; her knowledge of the English, and French tongues, was fully adequate to her years; and her manner of reading had peculiar charms; her handwriting was neat and easy; she was a good accomptant...and much more. Margaretta was quite the accomplisher! - Katie D.<br />
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Eve Korkfields Judith Sergeant Mary was very interesting in the fact that her parents’ idea of education sounded like a basic training for future sophisticated wives. I am sure young Mary would have no problem procuring a wealth husband with all of her learned refinements.--Cheryl<br />
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Going along with that same reading, I don't quite know what I think or how I feel about the following lines:<br />
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~"I think the propriety of circumscribing the education of a female, within such narrow bounds as are frequently assigned, is at least problematical."<br />
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~"The accomplished, the liberally accomplished female, if she is destined to move in the line of competency, will be regarded as a pleasing and instructive companion." <br />
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~"We have been assiduously employed in cultivating the mind of Margaretta."<br />
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These lines just really caught my eye and wondered if they caught anyone else's eye. They all, to me, seem to run with the themes/ideas we've discussed in class. -- Vanessa Smiley<br />
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Vanessa, I agree with your comments that these few selections do somewhat contradict what we know about the role education played in the lives of pre-Revolutionary women. However when we fast forward to the post-war period, it seems like the idea of women receiving an education change with regards to "public virtue" and "republican motherhood". Women could receive an education if it a)made them a better companion to their husband or b)helped them to better teach their sons/the next generation of American citizens morals and genteel manners.- Lisa Wilkerson<br />
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The line "We have been assiduously employed in cultivating the mind of Margaretta" also caught my eye and it ties in perfectly with the one that really stuck out to me, "and when the mind is judiciously balanced, it renders the possessor not only more valuable but also more amiable, and more generally useful." I'm kind of amused that the education of women was merely to make them more useful, and better yet, more useful to men. Their job was, as we learned in the lecture on Tuesday, to be able to teach men how to properly run the country and teach girls how to assist those men in whatever way possible. I can't decipher, though, whether or not this story was meant to be somewhat satirical since it was written by a woman pretending to be a man. I kind of got the feeling she was criticizing the education system. Thoughts? -Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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In the Murray reading, I found the following sentence particularly interesting: "No, Mr. Pedant, she was not unfitted for her proper sphere; and your stomach, however critical it may be, never digested finer puddings than those which I, with an uncommon zest, have partook, as knowing they were the composition of her fair hand--- yes, in the receipts of cookery she is thoroughly versed; she is in every respect the complete housewife" (136). After listing all her accomplishments, Murray's narrator, Mr. Vigillius, seems to feel it is necessary to assure the reader that Margaretta possesses the necessary feminine skills as well. This passage almost reads like an advertisement of Margaretta's suitability for marriage. -Ashley H. <br />
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I find Rowson's biography rather odd. For a woman known as an actress, how did she achieve the respectability to open a popular girls' school in a town as straitlaced as Boston? How did did she manage to publish under her own name and achieve such success? Does it seem to anyone else that she borrowed details from her own life to write with?--A. Meyer<br />
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In the reading from Catherine Scholten, it was interesting to me how during the colonial period pregnant women were commonly thought of as "breeding" and "teeming", though theologians attributed dignity to carrying the "living soul" of a child. -Katie D.<br />
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I agree with Katie D. the vocabulary used to explain a pregnant women is very interesting, as is the way theologians viewed women's pregnancies. I just wonder if this "living soul" ideology was prevelant through the colonies at this time or not because it seems to go against the theological ideas that women were suppose to suffer in childbirth because they were tainted with original sin. I just wonder if they believed women were the cause of sin and evil and therefore suffered in child birth, why would they choose to say then say women were the carriers of a "living soul" and were "blessed among women"? Doesn't this idea seem a little off and contradictory? --Katelynn V. <br />
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In Catherine Scholten's account of the change that took place in childbirth procedures I had a question occur to me. While obviously the new medical science allowed doctors to help reduce the pain and risk of childbirth, why did they not let women train in this new medically accepted field? I understand that men thought that women wouldn't be able to understand all the technical terms and the sciences that the training would occur, but at the same time, women had been delivering the children through midwifery long before men came into the field. Wouldn't it have made more sense to simply train the women who already knew a great deal about birthing in the new sciences so that the woman giving birth would still be comfortable and the death rates in birth would go down?- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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I agree with Elizabeth, while I understand that men thought women perhaps were not as capable to understand the science of it, I found it crazy that they had to do almost everything blindly because women were nervous about the male doctors seeing their privates. Another thing that struck me was that while this showed the intrusion of men in the womens sphere (I believe it proves the mens of that time superiority complex) it also showed some progress. Men saw it as their duty to protect women through child brith and "... women could now reasonably look to men for safety in the "perilous conditions" of childbirth." -- Emily Miller<br />
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I still find it very odd that women were able to be convinced that men--who had no experience with women's bodies or the childbearing process--were their superiors when it came to childbirth. Furthermore, because midwives first started calling doctors for difficult births, I wonder how that changed doctors' perceptions of childbirth. Did it cause male doctors to think childbirth was more dangerous than it really was, leading to some of the 19th century emphasis on not wearing out a woman's body? Why did the change to male doctors seem to coincide with an increased emphasis on smaller families and reserving energy and resources? I find Scholten's report on NY laws requiring midwives not to discuss their business and women's bodies in front of men (except in emergencies) very interesting. It makes me wonder how much male doctors lost out on, because midwives wouldn't discuss it in front of them. It also makes me wonder how female midwives became desperate and concerned enough about science that they were willing to bring in male doctors, when the feelings against talking about childbearing in front of men were so strong--A. Meyer<br />
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I agree, Andrea. I found myself getting annoyed that women seemed to be so easily convinced that men had such a better knowledge of childbearing and child birth than midwives. It seems to me that women would have placed more trust into the hands of someone who had actually gone through the experience. I think the questions you raise are definitely valid, and I found myself thinking about some of the same things as I was reading.--Kaitlyn G.<br />
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I agree with both Andrea and Kaitlyn. However, I wonder how this change came about. How did the doctors convince women that they were better, or more skilled in the ways of childbirth than a midwife who'd been helping deliver children her whole life? Where their pamphlets and articles that were circulated to help make this switch? How was is that these elite women placed so much faith in these doctors who couldn't even look and see what they were doing. By not seeing what they were doing couldn't they do more harm than good? ---Katelynn V. <br />
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I think that what might have aided womens acceptance of the shift to men physicians instead of midwifes may have just been as simple as they were the ones with medical training. Plus they were men and supposedly had more reason than women. Also it wasn't an immediate switch to men, it was more gradual. At first, the men worked with the midwives or were only called in emergencies. Then it was because they were able to ease the pain and had the tools to help pull out the child. The fact that many medical schools devoted at least one professor to solely focus on midwifery speaks to societies view of the necessity of proper training and the male focus of all things medical. --Alex K. <br />
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In the excerpt from Susanna Rowson’s: “Charlotte. A Tale of Truth” she writes about the tragic story of a young girl who leaves her family and friends behind for an Army Lieutenant she falls in love with. In the preface Rowson explains that she wrote the novel to warn parents about what could happen to their daughters as well as for young women who could find themselves in a situation similar to Charlottes. I really enjoyed reading this piece because even though Rowson wrote it in 1794 I found it easy to relate to the dilemma Charlotte was having over wanting to please her parents but at the same time trying to follow her heart. It is interesting to see that women today still feel many of the same pressures Charlotte felt in the 1790s. For instance many women are still concerned about choosing a husband who is accepted by their friends and family and it can split families apart when a woman defies her parents and marries someone who they find unsuitable. Many men today are also careful about respecting the wishes of their future in-laws by asking her father for permission to marry.--Caitlin Quinn<br />
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In regards to "Charlotte. A Tale of Truth", the preface says it's somewhat based on a true story. Despite its romanticized points, it makes me wonder if it was a common occurrence for men to take women to the colonies against their will. Also, if they did come here and were unhappy, why couldn't they write back to their fathers and tell them they were virtually kidnapped? I know my daddy would fork up any amount to get me back home. Seeing Charlotte's father's undying love for her, I'm sure he would have done the same.- Lisa Wilkerson<br />
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Maybe Charlotte was ashamed of abandoning and having disappointed her family and felt she could not reach out for their help. Or maybe she felt it was her duty to her now husband to obey him or at least stay with him. Also, Rowson writes, "Sometimes, indeed, he (Charlottes husband) would steal out at the close of evening, and pass a few hours with her; and then so much was she attached to him, that all her sorrows were forgotten while blest with his society." So even though was usually miserable, her intense love for him kept pulling her back to him. --Alex<br />
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I also found "Charlotte. A Tale of Truth" interesting but what I found most interesting was the image that was shown of the Army Lieutenant. Susanna Rowson writes his character as a less than wonderful man, after all Charlotte told him she wouldn't go with him because of her duty to her parents but he picked her up and took her anyway, at this point it seemed to be against her will. And once in America he left her alone the majority of the time and in the end instead of dying in the arms of her "love" she died in the arms of her dad (which was still very touching). Was Susanna warning girls against dishonoring her parents or keeping an eye out for men who would tell them what they wanted to hear in order to achieve their goals? - Elizabeth Frank<br />
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In my history of the book seminar, we were required to read Charlotte Temple in its entirety. I really enjoyed reading the book then, and i liked rereading a couple of chapters for this weeks reading. The story itself, as other have suggested revolves around Charolette who is torn between love and duty to both her parents and her supposed lover. What is really interesting about the novel is that there are places where the author, a female author at that, speaks directly to the reader and either explains or apologizes for the actions of the characters or warns the reader away from what she sees as dangerous to young women. What is also very interesting is that this book was the first "bestseller" in the unites states. What does the books subject and popularity tell us about the readers and society during the late 18th century? ---Katelynn V. <br />
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"Charlotte. A Tale of Truth" was a very touching piece. I found it interesting that the idea of not wanting to disappoint her father mattered greatly to Charlotte. As she was dying, all Charlotte wanted was to see her father one last time and receive his blessing. It almost seems to reemphasize the beloved American concept of "Daddy's little girl." --E.Hufford<br />
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I was very taken with the story about Charlotte. I feel pretty certain that Rowson wrote this story to discourage young women to give into passions of love. I thought the way she depicted Montraville, fit the descriptions of a seducer to a tee. Charlotte’s act of giving her baby to her father and then dying in his arms was a dramatic way to drive home the message that young women should listen to their parents’ advice. ---Cheryl<br />
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I think another aspect of "Charlotte A Tale of Truth" is that it was probably a response to the fact that girls could now make decisions about who they chose to marry. Their marriages were no longer arranged or forced to as great of an extent as they used to be so I'm led to believe that this piece was possibly a response to the idea that children, especially daughters, should still take their parents' advice when it comes to matters of the heart. Marriage is a big decision and parents only want the best for their children, be that economic gain or just to make sure they're with someone that will truly love them. - Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I thought Rowson's piece reflected the different stereotypes attributed to women during this time. There was Charlotte, the helpless rich girl who is indecisive and weak; the promiscuous Mademoiselle, and the wise Madame Du Pont trying to steer Charlotte in the right direction. Furthermore, Rowson didn't believe these characters could change. Mademoiselle was bad in the beginning and bad in the end, Charlotte was always helpless. -F. Cobb<br />
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So while reading Scholten's piece, I decided that had I lived during that time, I strongly doubt I would have had children. Childbirth is hard enough today with the pain and anxiety surrounding it. Add the thought of dying and the need to be spiritually prepared as John Oliver so kindly pointed out in his "A Present for Teeming Women," and there is no doubt many women today would probably have been scared out of childbearing (myself included). -- E. Hufford<br />
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I totally agree. The examples and excerpts from literature given to pregnant women of the day were a bit much. Especially those from A Present for Teeming American Women, like you said. The comparison of a warm chamber to a grave was a little too freaky, but I suppose that was sort of the point.--Kaitlyn G.<br />
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In response to E. Hufford, I was thinking that childbirth would be difficult, but the only certain way to avoid pregancy would be to remain unmarried. With the limited opportunities available to women, I think many women would rather risk childbirth than a poor spinsterhood. What kind of social stigma was attached to women who chose to remain unmarried or those who were unable to have children?-- Ashley H. <br />
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I was a little confused by Murray's piece, "The Story of Margaretta." Apparently Murray wrote the series under the name of Mr. Vigillius. Therefore, she is pretending to be a man writing about the education of a woman, though she really is a woman. Why would she use the pen name? What it because she wanted to be taken seriously? - F. Cobb<br />
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The question I had in my head while reading Scholten's article was, "why didn't women want men in there?" The article mentions prejudice as the cause, which seems ridiculously simple but obvious. Its interesting for me to see how the interpretation of the Bible seemed to follow the presence of male midwifery. Maybe its just the organization of the article, but does suggest that in America, social change precedes and causes a change in religion? Is this a common trend? The very fact that men are actually entering the profession of midwifery seems to be the flat reason for it being accepted. The need for professionals in times of emergencies ultimately gave way to just a general need when people realized that these people knew what they were doing (relatively) and that their tools wouldn't actually harm the child. On a different topic, I found this quote from Murray really interesting: "Her person, the symmetry of her features, the rose and lily of her complexion....these are the endowments of nature --while the artificial accomplishments with which she is invested...confer upon her no real or intrinsic merit." pg 137. Maybe I'm misreading that, but is that say her looks are more 'valuable' than the 'artificial' accomplishments of character? <br />
-Christopher Plummer<br />
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I also really enjoyed reading Rowson's story about Charlotte. I think it is interesting how things that were written about back then can still be things we are dealing with today. Like when she talked about how women liked a man in uniform : "A man of an indifferent appearance, will, when arrayed in a military habit, shew to advantage..."(194) and the fact that even though Charlotte wanted to do the right thing she let her "boyfriend" talk her into something she did not want to. That is something that young women today still deal with. ~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
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I agree with the opinions posted before on Scholten's article. From our lectures in class, I find it odd that men would want to exert dominance over birth. With the establishment of the concept of motherhood, this reversal seems odd. Perhaps in concerns of medical science, though, a woman could not be allowed to have that knowledge. This idea makes me wonder at what point does one gender role win out above others; what is the most important gendered difference of the period. --Robert Kopp</div>72.209.223.69 Deprecated: header(): Passing null to parameter #3 ($response_code) of type int is deprecated in /home/umwhisto/public_html/mcclurken/wiki/includes/WebResponse.php on line 38