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Deprecated: header(): Passing null to parameter #3 ($response_code) of type int is deprecated in /home/umwhisto/public_html/mcclurken/wiki/includes/WebResponse.php on line 38 https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/api.php?action=feedcontributions&feedformat=atom&user=199.111.85.50McClurken Wiki - User contributions [en]2026-09-18T22:33:23ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.22.0https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=HIST_131--Week_10_Questions/CommentsHIST 131--Week 10 Questions/Comments2008-03-24T18:34:36Z<p>199.111.85.50: New page: David Crockett Hunts a Bear in Western Tennessee: Davie Crockett sounds like nothing more than a hick (pardon the slang) in his narrative. It's weird that he has such a glorified name, b...</p>
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<div>David Crockett Hunts a Bear in Western Tennessee:<br />
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Davie Crockett sounds like nothing more than a hick (pardon the slang) in his narrative. It's weird that he has such a glorified name, but it seems that he was nothing but a country dude who became famous. --Gracie</div>199.111.85.50https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=HIST_131--Week_9_Questions/CommentsHIST 131--Week 9 Questions/Comments2008-03-21T11:38:59Z<p>199.111.85.50: /* Sarah Grimke on the Status of Women */</p>
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<div>== Peter Wendover, July 4th, 1806, A Jeffersonian Sailmaker ==<br />
A Jeffersonian Sailmaker's Fourth of July Address - While reading this source i was noticing the somewhat hypocritical this man's stance was on "liberty". He kept saying things like "not inured to the tactics of war, untaught in the practice of barbarity, not accustomed to the clang of arms" to describe his fellow countrymen, apparently forgetting the way they treated the Native Americans and the African Americans! He also said they should "do to others as we wish them to do unto us"...did the colonists actually not realize the hypocrisy in their so called "morals"? He was so blatantly saying how great America was for letting everyone experience liberty and freedom, obviously forgetting that they weren't actually doing that at all! - Jessie Bright<br />
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First of all, in "A Jeffersonian Sailmaker's Fourth of July Address" what are they talking about when they say "COLUMBIA IS FREE..."? Are they referring to D.C. because at this point the capital had been moved there? And also, it seems ironic how he uses the word slavery when he says, "death is terror, but slavery is death" because that is what they are putting African Americans through. If they realize how horrible it is to feel like a slave, then why would they have others be in that role? <br />
-Ally Campo <br />
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In "A Jeffersonian Sailmaker's Fourth of July Address" why is Columbia a forefront of the article? I'm not really seeing the connection between the Revolution and Columbia? Why was Columbia even noteworthy at the time this was written? I don't see how Columbia has anything to do with the Revolution but maybe I'm just missing the point. -Jenna Shevlin<br />
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As another student commented, while reading "A Jeffersonian Sailmaker's Fourth of July Address," I was surprised by how hypocritical it was. Wendover talks about the "Emancipation of a Nation," "Equal Rights," and "Rights of Man," but all of these apply solely to white males. It just amazes me how people could proclaim these republican ideals and yet refuse to apply them to African Americans and Native Americans. -Iris Onks<br />
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I understand that in "A Jeffersonian Sailmakers Fourth of July Address" when he first talks about "GOD, who interposed for our country, relieved us from thradldom, and saved us with an omnipotent arm...." he is talking about the God from above, but is he talking about the same God when he says "to that GOD who governs the nations, and awards the destinies of men", or someone different?- Bryan Quintana<br />
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In "A Jeffersonian Sailmaker's Fourth of July Address", I found it interesting how Wendover says, “That republican principles and true patriotism, can only be promoted by the practice of the moral virtues and conscious integrity.” If the people during this time believed republican principles and moral virtue were intertwined, were the personal lives of politicians being criticized? If so, was it anywhere close to what politicians go through today? Emily King<br />
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Wendover states, "...it was left for Americans to convince the potentates of Europe, that the end of all just governemnts was the happiness of the governed," (184). It seems to me that he is describing anarchy here, yet he is in favor of American governmment policies and the constitution. How was this contradiction formed? ---Laura Peters<br />
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In this reading, when Wendover saya, "...Not inured to the tactics of war, untaught in the practice of barbarity, not accustomed to the clang of arms, America trembles; all awake to foreboding fears. All alarmed at the clouds that thicken, Americans collect. The crisis is truly distressing-Death is a terror, but slavery is death."(183) This statement was very interesting because it appears that many find the situation of slavery problematic and upsetting, but yet they view it as a terror. At this point it is implied that slavery is viewed as terror because it is new to many of the colonists; is this true? However, it is also implying that everyone feels trapped by slavery. Which is more likely, the feeling of entrapment or the fact that is just fear of a new concept? Quincey Garcia<br />
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I just think it's comical that he says "The subjects of the French King, having long groaned under the burden of oppression, taking example from the courage and magnanimity of Americans, burst their chains and nobly contended for the RIGHTS OF MAN," using such powerful and flowery rhetoric, yet the French were their "friends" and they took a vow of isolation when the French asked the Americans to return the favor of helping them fight in their revolutionary war. Where are the Americans flowery rhetoric now? -- Taja L. Winston<br />
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== James Forten protests 1813 PA Law ==<br />
Letters from a Man of Colour... - In this source i noticed how he said that many free black men had property that they earned upon becoming free. I was surprised that this was the case, i always assumed that free black men were still very discriminated against and would never have been able to aquire land after being liberated, he made it seem that many free slaves were well off. I'm sure this isn't the case? Did any free black men or women ever experience a comfortable lifestyle after being freed? - Jessie Bright<br />
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In James Forten's Protest against Pennsylvania, I was wondering if his protest had any effect whatsoever on the Pennsylvania law? I feel like even though he is a wealthy free black, he really has no say because he is black. He makes some excellent and true statements, for example punishing a guilty black man with slavery will not make him better and that the Constitution of Penn said " all men are born equally", but I feel like Penn would just ignore him. Is this true or is part of the reason this law did not get passed because of black men protesting?- Taylor Warner<br />
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In “Letters from a Man of Colour”, James Forten writes how the state of Pennsylvania is a place where “African[s] have justly boasted of rational liberty and the protection of the laws.” Was this a state where free black men actually had more freedom or is this just a persuasive argument Forten is attempting to use to sway the senate? Were these liberties and protection of laws really something for free black men to boast about? –Rory Reese<br />
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I think it is interesting that both African-Americans and Native Americans used the jargon of the American Revolution when trying to get their own rights and freedoms. It makes me wonder if this lead to any guilty feelings on the parts of whites? Having their words and arguments used against them seems to me a to be a rather impactful way of getting the message across yet in most cases it doesn't seem to work. Is there anything to suggest that people found this equally compelling? -Melissa Brokaw<br />
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I found James Forten's Letters to be very provocative. While clearly showing how African Americans felt like they were a part of the new country, it still showed how jilted they were by things like "all men being created equal" like in the Declaration of Independence, yet still the African Americans are being treated like something not worthy of being human. What I found most interesting was how James Forten started out intending to lecture the Senate on the bill, to encourage emancipation, yet by the end of the letter, it seemed like he was shaming the senators for even thinking about this particular course of action. While the bill eventually failed and did not become an established law, it would be interesting to know why the Senators chose against passing it--maybe Forten really did shame them into thinking otherwise... -- Meganne Lemon<br />
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Where were these letters by Forten published? Were they only for the eyes of white men controling legal power in Pennsylcania, or were they viewed by many in the general public? Also, was James Forten one of a kind, being a wealthy free born African American in Pennyslvania, or were there many others like him?--Helen Dinndorf<br />
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Although I find James Forten’s proclamations that all men are created equal and his other points excerpted from the Declaration of Independence and Pennsylvania Constitution to be persuasive, I feel the whites of this time would not. At this time, don’t many whites still maintain the mentality that blacks are sub-human and therefore don’t deserve the same rights. I realize significant changes have been made regarding slaves, but when whites have for so long viewed blacks in one way, it is hard to adjust this frame of mind, especially so dramatically as to call them their equals. One tactic I feel was probably good for Forten’s argument was when he said “we sincerely hope, the white men, whom we should look upon as our protectors…” This could make them look upon blacks as something weak and below them, like a child who is pleading for their protection, rather than an equal who is there to challenge them and the laws they wish to implement. --Christen Booher<br />
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On pages 186-187, Forten speaks of how the authors of the constitution saw black men as equal, and that they realized they could not enslave black men because of lack of authority. Did Forten not critically look at the men behind the constitution and see that many supporters of the constitution, especially Thomas Jefferson, owned slaves. Also, if Forten's perception were true, why wouldn't the forefathers of America not outlaw slavery in the constitution? ---Laura Peters<br />
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I agree with Christen in that James Forten claims that all men are created equal, but at this time most northern states still were going through the Emancipation laws, declaring that they were going to give up slavery, so i would just like to klnow what the whites of the time thought of James Forten, after reading what he has said. Were they inspired to change their views of blacks rights?-Paul Carter<br />
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I find it odd that, immediately after exclaiming that “GOD created all men equal,” James Forten goes on to say, “the white men, whom we should look upon as our protectors.” I feel that this is a contradiction; if they are all equal no man should have more power than another, i.e. be his protector. Perhaps, however, this is a way of buttering up the white audience? Flattery, after all, can get you everywhere. Forten would certainly not have been listened to if he attacked the white men. Therefore, I would like to believe that this assertion made by Forten is not his opinion, but rather, a way to pacify his audience into continuing to read his protest. ~Kristen Lonsdorf<br />
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I find this to be very passionately written in which that Forten's points are clearly given. When southern masters freed their slaves, I thought they were given a document that declared them a freemen but to be arrested a few hours of being freed, kind of suprised me. -- Eun Yi<br />
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I found it interesting that at the same time as he seems so mad at everyone he is almost begging it seems. And he doesn't even ask for equal rights... just less mean rights. Like, he says its fine to be punished to the full extent of the law, but not the sold. seems like he would try for a farther up bargain. I found it interesting. -- Jessica Lawrie<br />
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I think that the people reading Forten's proposal were threatened by his eloquence and compelling points of passing this bill. It was as if they thought that if we pass this bill more free blacks will move into our state and become just as educated as Forten, and we will loose our white society in our own state. I think by writing this proposal it actually hurt Forten's chances of passing the bill. I also find it interesting the language he uses, throughout the passage you can tell Forten is clearly educated and uses correct English and grammer, but when giving his anecdotal story about the white men chasing the black man he says "Halloa! Stop the Negro! Hoa ..." He does not paint whites in as educated light as he, he sets them below himself. So the white reading this passage, looses that sense of dominion over Forten, which in this case is a negative because as I stated earlier, they have a fear of blacks becoming more educated, and ultimately more powerful than whites. -- Taja L. Winston<br />
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== TJ’s Private & Public Indian Policy as seen in a Letter to Gov. Wm. Henry Harrison, 1803 & a speech to Native Americans ambassadors in 1806 ==<br />
In his address to the Mandans, why would Jefferson put their relationship in the context of father and child? I would assume that since they just came out of a war where they were fighting to get out of a relationship like that, that in turn, the would be wary to utilize the same method? -Dani Jones<br />
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After our discussion in class today about Jefferson's conflicting public v. private attitudes on slavery and his inability to take action one way or the other is further reiterated in comparing his private letter to Governor Harrison with his public address to the People of the Mandan Nation. In his private letter Jefferson speaks in a conniving manner and it sounds as if his plan to to trick the Indians into getting them to do what he wants. However, in his public address Jefferson speaks of the friendship between the government and the Mandan nation. Throughout his address Jefferson subtly asserts his superiority over the Indians by referring to them as his "children" and as his "red brethren". I know Jefferson was conflicted about emancipation but what were his feelings toward Native Americans? Also, we talked about how it was fairly common for slave owners to father children from their slaves so I was wondering if slave owners ever public or even privately acknowledged their sons or daughters? ---Lindsay Bothwell<br />
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Thomas Jefferson is a backstabbing hypocrite. At least that's what I gather from yesterday's discussion on his view of slavery and then reading about his view on Native Americans. However, I understand that this may be because he realizes the importance of promoting a new, united country and that he, as only the third president, may have felt a responsibility to his citizens and while privately believing otherwise, publicly agreed with the general population. (Things certainly have come a long way, haven't they?) I found it interesting how Jefferson called the Native Americans his "red" children, likening their relationship to father and son. I suppose it may have been so that the Indians could feel like they are included under the protection of the president, and could maybe make Jefferson and the government more likable. But then again, privately, it seems like Jefferson would rather the Indians all just go live on another continent. -- Meganne Lemon<br />
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Jefferson’s contrasting private and public Indian policy is shocking. He acts like he wants to keep the Indians completely in the dark while Americans take their land from them. Why did Jefferson think this was the best way to get the Indians land versus forcefully taking it? Did Americans still fear the Indians enough to prevent a war? -Emily King<br />
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In this document, Jefferson states, "When they withdraw themselves to the culture of a small piece of land, they will perceive how useless to them are their extensive forests..." (189). Was Jefferson, who is usually held in high regards as brilliant, really so ignorant to think that Indians would be content contained on a small piece of land, while their forests, in a sense, their livelihood, are being settled by Americans? ---Laura Peters<br />
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In the Address to the Wolf and People of the Mandan Nation, I was impressed by the statement, "We are now your fathers; and you shall not lose by the change. As soon as Spain had agreed to withdraw from all the waters of the Missouri and Mississippi, I felt the desire of becoming acquainted with all my red children beyond the Mississippi, and of uniting them with us as we have those on this side of that river, in the bonds of peace and friendship."(190) This statement was very powerful for me because I felt that there was a true sincerity in living harmoniously with the Native Americans. Do you think that Indians appreciated this gesture, or do you think that they were concerned with the line, "We are now your fathers;"(190), since they were avoiding the empowerment by the whites? Quincey Garcia<br />
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== Meriwether Lewis Journal, 1805 ==<br />
The Journals of the Lewis and Clark Expedition first mentions women being treated “with little rispect, and compel them to perform every species of drudgery.” Three days later, they wrote how women are seen as sacred in their society. Why is there this discrepancy within this short time period? Is there a possibility their first encounters and opinions were proven to be misinterpreted or are they describing two different groups of Indians? –Rory Reese<br />
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My question is a sort of spin off from Rory's. How did Sacajawea affect this rather poor opinion of females reflected in the beginning of their journey. It's well known that without her, the trip probably would have failed, or at least been much more difficult. What first influenced them to have such a poor opinion to start with? --Kathleen Dray<br />
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In response to the last two questions: I think their first impressions were probably a little skewed, as they only saw actions without the reasoning behind them (as we often do). As they became semi-encultured (a lot of learning can happen in 3 days) they probably saw that despite the menail duties there was a lot of respect or something like that.--Gracie Ofslager<br />
<br />
<br />
In his very first entry, Lewis describes how the Natives fell on the deer carcas like "famished dogs," and how he also mentioned they were in major poverty. Why was that so? It seemed like these natives were pretty self sufficent, yet they were starving. Was it jus that the expidetion came at a time when food was not very plentiful, or was this a regular thing? -Kristina Scrimshaw<br />
<br />
== Cherokees Debate Removal, John Ross and Elias Boudinot, 1836-1837 ==<br />
<br />
In the Reply to John Ross 1837, Elias Boudinot talks about the whites intermarrying, did they have the same views as their children as they did slave children with white fathers, did the blood percentage give them a better stance in society? Lauren Hicks<br />
<br />
How unreasonable is it for Cherokees to ask to be protected by the laws they were forced to abide by in an effort to become citizens? Isn't this the same with illegal immigration form Mexico? - Landon James<br />
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I think it is interesting that the Cherokees agree to respect and adhere to any treaty they feel they are bound to adhere to, why would they ever feel like that? Also, the Cherokees say that their best weapon is that of argument, seems to me like they would make good lawyers, plus they would have a lot to argue and protest in court anyways. Were there any Native American lawyers or were they denied that privelege of profession just as the African Americans were? - Landon James<br />
<br />
This was really interesting to me because it shows on a larger scale the impact of American Indian policy. Removal alone was a big enough impact on the Cherokees but also to look a little closer we see how removal not only tore them from their home but tore them apart as a nation. We see two men here who have different views one advocating resisting removal as a way to save their culture and another advocating removal as the means to saving the people and culture. The depth of damage inflicted on Native Americans seems to only increase with closer examination.-Melissa Brokaw<br />
<br />
I agree with Melissa in that this document showed the impact of the removal of the Indians on a larger scale that we have not yet been able to see. It seems a little ironic that people who want freedom are so quick to push the Native Americans off their land. - Courtney Newcomb<br />
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I wonder what the removal of the Indians did to their personal identity. I wonder how the next generation saw itself. --Gracie Ofslager (is really cool).<br />
<br />
I wonder first, was it ever really even considered by the Americans to make the Indians citizens? Also, for those who sided with John Ross, did they ever consider that this pushing Westward by the Americans would continue and not just be a one time thing or did they think that this would be an isolated incident? -- Katie Mauro<br />
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== Madison Hemings Recalls Life as Jefferson's Enslaved Son, 1873 ==<br />
"Madison Hemings Recalls Life as Thomas Jefferson's Enslaved Son" I was curious to how prevalent white slave owners fornicated with slaves? In Jefferson's situation there must of been certain individuals who knew of his relationship with Sally Hemings. How did they feel about it and what were the repercussions, if any? Also, how did his wife feel about this, if she knew at all? At the end of the document one of the questions states, how credible is Madison's testimony? I was curious as to others thoughts on this subject. --Nick Scott--<br />
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To comment on Nick's comment above, I am not sure, but I think that Martha, Jefferson's wife had died. And remember in class today, Dr. McClurken said that it was very normal for slave owners to have relationships with their slaves. But I was also wondering, since he had so much power and was 'famous', was it then looked down upon? Also to try to answer your last question, I see both ways of it being credible and not. Credible because his story does actually fit to other research and I wouldn't doubt him to know a little of his family history. I can also see how its not credible because he could be playing this up, just to make Jefferson have a bad reputation, because there is almost no reason to believe it was not Jefferson.- Taylor Warner<br />
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I found "Madison Hamings Recalls Life..." to be really interesting. Everything seems different when stated in the perspective of a slave's relationship with his family. I'm curious of what would have happened if Martha didn't die for another 5+ years. Would Jefferson have had relations with Sally Hemings anyways? Or would the secret have been harder to keep since his wife would have been still alive? -Ally Campo <br />
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In Madisons Hemings Recalls Life as Thomas Jefferson's Enslaved Son, He says Thomas Jefferson had his public life and his private life,how much did the Hemings children know about his public role in the government and did they know his stances on slavery and how he never wanted to make a statement against it. Lauren Hicks<br />
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Its apparent that many times a white slave would engage in sexual relations with his women slaves. However i am curious to when these slaves had kids how were they treated. Were the whites slaves for the most part imbarressed that they had a kid with a black women so they would treat their son or daughter just like any other slave, or would they treat them like or similiar to a white son or daughter?- Bryan Quintana<br />
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Madison Hemings’ Interview was interesting to read since we had just discussed Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings in class. Madison seems to remember Jefferson as a nice person. He says that he treated the entire Hemmings family well and they were allowed to stay around the “great house” and not have to do heavy work, while most of the other slaves were out in the fields. He also says that Jefferson has a good temperament and is even seen among the slave mechanics, but that he was not interested in plantation work so he left that to the stewards and overseers. I feel like Hemings could have also had a partial view of Jefferson because it seems that he never really interacted with the other slaves who were working in the fields. ~Renee Rosser<br />
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In the Interview with Madison Hemings, I found it interesting how well he reported him and his family being treated. All the memebers of his family just had small daily chores to do that did not require a lot of labor. It even sounded like they had a lot of free time once they finished their chores. We talked about the privledged position that the Hemings held in Jefferson's household during class, but I still thought they would have had a heavier workload. So, it surprised me to see how exceptionally the Hemings really were treated according to this interview. -Iris Onks<br />
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In Madison Heming's recollection he says that his brother Beverly married a white woman and his sister Harriet married a white man. Even if Beverly and Harriet could pull off being white because of their light skin, didn't the families of their spouses question their background or lack there of? Would they have made up stories to protect their true identity from being revealed? --Helen Dinndorf<br />
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After reading this, I was kind of impressed just how secret political figures could keep their lives. Even now, as in class, we can only speculate (though I'm fairly positive the Hemings were Jerfferson's children) as to whether or not Jefferson actually fathered Heming's children. His relationship could have easily been blown open as a smear campaign, servants could have told someone, and even when the supposed multiple children of Jefferson's came forward there still was a great amount of secrecy. How was he able to maintain such secrecy?-- Kathleen Dray<br />
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In reading Madison Hemings' recollection, I find a lot of the family's relationships as well as Madison's recollections from the Jefferson household very interesting. But at the same time, I began to wonder if this was similar in any way to some of the slave narratives we read in the past, like were some of the things Hemings actually said or wrote changed to make it seem like him and his family were better off than they actually were? Or is this different from those and we can safely assume this to be an accurate re-telling? --Christen Booher<br />
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After I read this, I started thinking about whether or not this testimony was very credible. Certainly it is based on concrete facts, since Madison there witnessing everything going on at the Jefferson Plantation. However, I feel as though Madison has a little bit of resentment towards his father, who we (as well as Madison) are assuming is Thomas Jefferson. He mentions that TJ only showed affection to his white children and grandchildren. Madison seems to understand why, but still I think he has some resentment (legitimately). To answer some of the questions posed by others: in my opinion, I strongly think that TJ would not have had sexual relations with Sally if his wife (Martha) was still alive. As Prof. McClurken mentioned in class the other day, one of the reasons as to why TJ decided to have a relationship with Sally could have been because Sally was in fact a lot like her half-sister, Martha. We obviously will never know what was going on in their heads, but my guess is that TJ was lonely, naturally, and Sally proved to be a comforting companion for him. <br />
~Megan Tisdelle~<br />
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I noticed that Madison Hemings, once freed, lived in Ohio. I am in a ‘Novels of Toni Morrison’ class, and I have noticed that many of her freed slaves also travel to Ohio. Is there any correlation here? For example, as a new state, was Ohio a sort of rallying place for freed slaves? ~Kristen Lonsdorf<br />
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When Jefferson persuaded Sally Hemmings to return to VA with him, I thought it was out of love but i guess not because Madison stated that Jefferson did not show affections toward his siblings and him. I find that odd. And I find it kind of confusing when he promised her that her children would be set free at the age of 21. To my understanding the child she was pragnant with in France is her first. So wouldn't her child be free anyways since she is free in france? -- Eun Yi<br />
== Sarah Grimke on the Status of Women ==<br />
<br />
I found it very interesting that the value placed in women changed so drastically within only 30 years. After the Revolution, women were required to go to school in order to be able to teach their future sons how to live, work, and thrive in a republic. However, Grimke's article suggests that this is not true anymore as women were now supposed to be there for dancing, cooking, and showing off. American ideals had changed in a little more than a generation. I guess they mothers after the Revolution taught their sons so well that they do not need women anymore. -Alex Zelin<br />
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In her Letters on the Equality of the Sexes, Sarah Grimké argued two main points. First, that God had made equality among the sexes, and that men were the ones who created women’s inferior condition by denying them opportunity. Second, she insisted that women should have same rights and duties as men, and thus should be able to fully participate in education, religion, work and politics (including the abolition movement). Clearly Sarah made the case for women’s equality with passionate conviction…but did her radical words win the agreement of more than just a small minority of women? If not, then why?<br />
~Megan Tisdelle~<br />
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I found this reading really interesting. I think that the concerns addressed by Sarah Grimke were still relevant to many women into the 20th century. I think her concern with education of women is definitely ahead of her time, so to say. Most women accepted the education they were being given to cook and clean and raise proper American sons. However, I think the fact that Grimke addresses her concerns early on in the 19th century is courages because the majority of society did not see anything wrong with the way women were being educated at that time. I was wondering, was she with the Quakers when she wrote this? I lean towards yes, simply because of her references to God. -- Katie Mauro<br />
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== Calloway Readings ==<br />
<br />
'''Joseph Brant "Indian vs. White Civilization, 1789'''<br><br />
Joseph Brant "Indian vs. White Civilization, 1789. This document reminded me of a really good HBO documentary movie I saw a couple of years ago, "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee." The experiences of Joseph Brant were similar to the main character in the movie. I know the setting for the movie was later in the 19th century, but if anyone has seen this movie, do they know if it is historically accurate to some extent? If it is I highly recommend the movie to get a visualization of what was occurring during this time period. --Nick Scott--<br />
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After reading Joseph Brant's response to the question of Indian vs. White Civilization, i began thinking about how the different influences of the society made them no uniquely different. The indian society never had the mentatlity of individuality over the group while, the american society came over with that society. My question is then, after the colonists settled, was there an increase in crime and "individual-minded" behavior among the native american societies? Or did they always did they always find the things that the colonists to be innately evil?- Dani Jones<br />
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In the comparison of Indians vs. White Civilizations by Joseph Brant, he says that he would rather die of Indian torture than to live a year in a colonist prison. He compares the two civilizations saying that there are not many villains and no robberies among the Indians and their crimes are impartially punished by judges. The Whites have horrible prisons that they keep people in but most of the people are in jail for debt which cannot be repaid if they are not working. He also talks about the Whites calling themselves Christians, but then treating their own people so badly. I think this passage is important because it shows a man who has experienced both cultures and points out that they Indians may not be as savage as the Whites make them out to be. ~Renee Rosser<br />
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In the Joseph Brant readings, I noticed that he talked a lot about the prisons and the justice system of both the cultures. Is he just doing this to compare? If so, why is this so significant? Is it just an example? -Kristina Scrimshaw<br />
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'''Alexander McGillivray's letter'''<br><br />
Several small details caught my eye when reading Alexander McGillivray's letter. First of all in the introduction before the letter it mentioned that it was very common for Scottish and English traders to many Indian women but wouldn't there be a language barrier? Did this not matter and/or present a problem? Second why did he refer to the King of Spain as "his Most Catholic Majesty"? Lastly, where is the Extensive Territory? Again these are small details but sometimes the small details make the most difference. -Jenna Shevlin<br />
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'''Indian Representatives'''<br><br />
One of the sections in the "Brothers;-" suggestions really struck me as odd. "It appears strange that you should expect [concessions] from us, who have only been defending our just Rights against your invasion." I find the comment ironic as it is the exact opposite of what the Americans were doing. The new settlers, and even the government, were continually forcing Indians out of their lands and attacking them. I know that Indian raids may have been common, but nowhere near to the extent of they brutality the American's used to gain land. It's interesting how words can be twisted around to place the "blame" on someone else. -Alex Zelin</div>199.111.85.50https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=HIST_131--Week_9_Questions/CommentsHIST 131--Week 9 Questions/Comments2008-03-21T11:27:03Z<p>199.111.85.50: /* Cherokees Debate Removal, John Ross and Elias Boudinot, 1836-1837 */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Peter Wendover, July 4th, 1806, A Jeffersonian Sailmaker ==<br />
A Jeffersonian Sailmaker's Fourth of July Address - While reading this source i was noticing the somewhat hypocritical this man's stance was on "liberty". He kept saying things like "not inured to the tactics of war, untaught in the practice of barbarity, not accustomed to the clang of arms" to describe his fellow countrymen, apparently forgetting the way they treated the Native Americans and the African Americans! He also said they should "do to others as we wish them to do unto us"...did the colonists actually not realize the hypocrisy in their so called "morals"? He was so blatantly saying how great America was for letting everyone experience liberty and freedom, obviously forgetting that they weren't actually doing that at all! - Jessie Bright<br />
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First of all, in "A Jeffersonian Sailmaker's Fourth of July Address" what are they talking about when they say "COLUMBIA IS FREE..."? Are they referring to D.C. because at this point the capital had been moved there? And also, it seems ironic how he uses the word slavery when he says, "death is terror, but slavery is death" because that is what they are putting African Americans through. If they realize how horrible it is to feel like a slave, then why would they have others be in that role? <br />
-Ally Campo <br />
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In "A Jeffersonian Sailmaker's Fourth of July Address" why is Columbia a forefront of the article? I'm not really seeing the connection between the Revolution and Columbia? Why was Columbia even noteworthy at the time this was written? I don't see how Columbia has anything to do with the Revolution but maybe I'm just missing the point. -Jenna Shevlin<br />
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As another student commented, while reading "A Jeffersonian Sailmaker's Fourth of July Address," I was surprised by how hypocritical it was. Wendover talks about the "Emancipation of a Nation," "Equal Rights," and "Rights of Man," but all of these apply solely to white males. It just amazes me how people could proclaim these republican ideals and yet refuse to apply them to African Americans and Native Americans. -Iris Onks<br />
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I understand that in "A Jeffersonian Sailmakers Fourth of July Address" when he first talks about "GOD, who interposed for our country, relieved us from thradldom, and saved us with an omnipotent arm...." he is talking about the God from above, but is he talking about the same God when he says "to that GOD who governs the nations, and awards the destinies of men", or someone different?- Bryan Quintana<br />
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In "A Jeffersonian Sailmaker's Fourth of July Address", I found it interesting how Wendover says, “That republican principles and true patriotism, can only be promoted by the practice of the moral virtues and conscious integrity.” If the people during this time believed republican principles and moral virtue were intertwined, were the personal lives of politicians being criticized? If so, was it anywhere close to what politicians go through today? Emily King<br />
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Wendover states, "...it was left for Americans to convince the potentates of Europe, that the end of all just governemnts was the happiness of the governed," (184). It seems to me that he is describing anarchy here, yet he is in favor of American governmment policies and the constitution. How was this contradiction formed? ---Laura Peters<br />
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In this reading, when Wendover saya, "...Not inured to the tactics of war, untaught in the practice of barbarity, not accustomed to the clang of arms, America trembles; all awake to foreboding fears. All alarmed at the clouds that thicken, Americans collect. The crisis is truly distressing-Death is a terror, but slavery is death."(183) This statement was very interesting because it appears that many find the situation of slavery problematic and upsetting, but yet they view it as a terror. At this point it is implied that slavery is viewed as terror because it is new to many of the colonists; is this true? However, it is also implying that everyone feels trapped by slavery. Which is more likely, the feeling of entrapment or the fact that is just fear of a new concept? Quincey Garcia<br />
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I just think it's comical that he says "The subjects of the French King, having long groaned under the burden of oppression, taking example from the courage and magnanimity of Americans, burst their chains and nobly contended for the RIGHTS OF MAN," using such powerful and flowery rhetoric, yet the French were their "friends" and they took a vow of isolation when the French asked the Americans to return the favor of helping them fight in their revolutionary war. Where are the Americans flowery rhetoric now? -- Taja L. Winston<br />
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== James Forten protests 1813 PA Law ==<br />
Letters from a Man of Colour... - In this source i noticed how he said that many free black men had property that they earned upon becoming free. I was surprised that this was the case, i always assumed that free black men were still very discriminated against and would never have been able to aquire land after being liberated, he made it seem that many free slaves were well off. I'm sure this isn't the case? Did any free black men or women ever experience a comfortable lifestyle after being freed? - Jessie Bright<br />
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In James Forten's Protest against Pennsylvania, I was wondering if his protest had any effect whatsoever on the Pennsylvania law? I feel like even though he is a wealthy free black, he really has no say because he is black. He makes some excellent and true statements, for example punishing a guilty black man with slavery will not make him better and that the Constitution of Penn said " all men are born equally", but I feel like Penn would just ignore him. Is this true or is part of the reason this law did not get passed because of black men protesting?- Taylor Warner<br />
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In “Letters from a Man of Colour”, James Forten writes how the state of Pennsylvania is a place where “African[s] have justly boasted of rational liberty and the protection of the laws.” Was this a state where free black men actually had more freedom or is this just a persuasive argument Forten is attempting to use to sway the senate? Were these liberties and protection of laws really something for free black men to boast about? –Rory Reese<br />
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I think it is interesting that both African-Americans and Native Americans used the jargon of the American Revolution when trying to get their own rights and freedoms. It makes me wonder if this lead to any guilty feelings on the parts of whites? Having their words and arguments used against them seems to me a to be a rather impactful way of getting the message across yet in most cases it doesn't seem to work. Is there anything to suggest that people found this equally compelling? -Melissa Brokaw<br />
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I found James Forten's Letters to be very provocative. While clearly showing how African Americans felt like they were a part of the new country, it still showed how jilted they were by things like "all men being created equal" like in the Declaration of Independence, yet still the African Americans are being treated like something not worthy of being human. What I found most interesting was how James Forten started out intending to lecture the Senate on the bill, to encourage emancipation, yet by the end of the letter, it seemed like he was shaming the senators for even thinking about this particular course of action. While the bill eventually failed and did not become an established law, it would be interesting to know why the Senators chose against passing it--maybe Forten really did shame them into thinking otherwise... -- Meganne Lemon<br />
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Where were these letters by Forten published? Were they only for the eyes of white men controling legal power in Pennsylcania, or were they viewed by many in the general public? Also, was James Forten one of a kind, being a wealthy free born African American in Pennyslvania, or were there many others like him?--Helen Dinndorf<br />
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Although I find James Forten’s proclamations that all men are created equal and his other points excerpted from the Declaration of Independence and Pennsylvania Constitution to be persuasive, I feel the whites of this time would not. At this time, don’t many whites still maintain the mentality that blacks are sub-human and therefore don’t deserve the same rights. I realize significant changes have been made regarding slaves, but when whites have for so long viewed blacks in one way, it is hard to adjust this frame of mind, especially so dramatically as to call them their equals. One tactic I feel was probably good for Forten’s argument was when he said “we sincerely hope, the white men, whom we should look upon as our protectors…” This could make them look upon blacks as something weak and below them, like a child who is pleading for their protection, rather than an equal who is there to challenge them and the laws they wish to implement. --Christen Booher<br />
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On pages 186-187, Forten speaks of how the authors of the constitution saw black men as equal, and that they realized they could not enslave black men because of lack of authority. Did Forten not critically look at the men behind the constitution and see that many supporters of the constitution, especially Thomas Jefferson, owned slaves. Also, if Forten's perception were true, why wouldn't the forefathers of America not outlaw slavery in the constitution? ---Laura Peters<br />
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I agree with Christen in that James Forten claims that all men are created equal, but at this time most northern states still were going through the Emancipation laws, declaring that they were going to give up slavery, so i would just like to klnow what the whites of the time thought of James Forten, after reading what he has said. Were they inspired to change their views of blacks rights?-Paul Carter<br />
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I find it odd that, immediately after exclaiming that “GOD created all men equal,” James Forten goes on to say, “the white men, whom we should look upon as our protectors.” I feel that this is a contradiction; if they are all equal no man should have more power than another, i.e. be his protector. Perhaps, however, this is a way of buttering up the white audience? Flattery, after all, can get you everywhere. Forten would certainly not have been listened to if he attacked the white men. Therefore, I would like to believe that this assertion made by Forten is not his opinion, but rather, a way to pacify his audience into continuing to read his protest. ~Kristen Lonsdorf<br />
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I find this to be very passionately written in which that Forten's points are clearly given. When southern masters freed their slaves, I thought they were given a document that declared them a freemen but to be arrested a few hours of being freed, kind of suprised me. -- Eun Yi<br />
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I found it interesting that at the same time as he seems so mad at everyone he is almost begging it seems. And he doesn't even ask for equal rights... just less mean rights. Like, he says its fine to be punished to the full extent of the law, but not the sold. seems like he would try for a farther up bargain. I found it interesting. -- Jessica Lawrie<br />
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I think that the people reading Forten's proposal were threatened by his eloquence and compelling points of passing this bill. It was as if they thought that if we pass this bill more free blacks will move into our state and become just as educated as Forten, and we will loose our white society in our own state. I think by writing this proposal it actually hurt Forten's chances of passing the bill. I also find it interesting the language he uses, throughout the passage you can tell Forten is clearly educated and uses correct English and grammer, but when giving his anecdotal story about the white men chasing the black man he says "Halloa! Stop the Negro! Hoa ..." He does not paint whites in as educated light as he, he sets them below himself. So the white reading this passage, looses that sense of dominion over Forten, which in this case is a negative because as I stated earlier, they have a fear of blacks becoming more educated, and ultimately more powerful than whites. -- Taja L. Winston<br />
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== TJ’s Private & Public Indian Policy as seen in a Letter to Gov. Wm. Henry Harrison, 1803 & a speech to Native Americans ambassadors in 1806 ==<br />
In his address to the Mandans, why would Jefferson put their relationship in the context of father and child? I would assume that since they just came out of a war where they were fighting to get out of a relationship like that, that in turn, the would be wary to utilize the same method? -Dani Jones<br />
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After our discussion in class today about Jefferson's conflicting public v. private attitudes on slavery and his inability to take action one way or the other is further reiterated in comparing his private letter to Governor Harrison with his public address to the People of the Mandan Nation. In his private letter Jefferson speaks in a conniving manner and it sounds as if his plan to to trick the Indians into getting them to do what he wants. However, in his public address Jefferson speaks of the friendship between the government and the Mandan nation. Throughout his address Jefferson subtly asserts his superiority over the Indians by referring to them as his "children" and as his "red brethren". I know Jefferson was conflicted about emancipation but what were his feelings toward Native Americans? Also, we talked about how it was fairly common for slave owners to father children from their slaves so I was wondering if slave owners ever public or even privately acknowledged their sons or daughters? ---Lindsay Bothwell<br />
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Thomas Jefferson is a backstabbing hypocrite. At least that's what I gather from yesterday's discussion on his view of slavery and then reading about his view on Native Americans. However, I understand that this may be because he realizes the importance of promoting a new, united country and that he, as only the third president, may have felt a responsibility to his citizens and while privately believing otherwise, publicly agreed with the general population. (Things certainly have come a long way, haven't they?) I found it interesting how Jefferson called the Native Americans his "red" children, likening their relationship to father and son. I suppose it may have been so that the Indians could feel like they are included under the protection of the president, and could maybe make Jefferson and the government more likable. But then again, privately, it seems like Jefferson would rather the Indians all just go live on another continent. -- Meganne Lemon<br />
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Jefferson’s contrasting private and public Indian policy is shocking. He acts like he wants to keep the Indians completely in the dark while Americans take their land from them. Why did Jefferson think this was the best way to get the Indians land versus forcefully taking it? Did Americans still fear the Indians enough to prevent a war? -Emily King<br />
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In this document, Jefferson states, "When they withdraw themselves to the culture of a small piece of land, they will perceive how useless to them are their extensive forests..." (189). Was Jefferson, who is usually held in high regards as brilliant, really so ignorant to think that Indians would be content contained on a small piece of land, while their forests, in a sense, their livelihood, are being settled by Americans? ---Laura Peters<br />
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In the Address to the Wolf and People of the Mandan Nation, I was impressed by the statement, "We are now your fathers; and you shall not lose by the change. As soon as Spain had agreed to withdraw from all the waters of the Missouri and Mississippi, I felt the desire of becoming acquainted with all my red children beyond the Mississippi, and of uniting them with us as we have those on this side of that river, in the bonds of peace and friendship."(190) This statement was very powerful for me because I felt that there was a true sincerity in living harmoniously with the Native Americans. Do you think that Indians appreciated this gesture, or do you think that they were concerned with the line, "We are now your fathers;"(190), since they were avoiding the empowerment by the whites? Quincey Garcia<br />
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== Meriwether Lewis Journal, 1805 ==<br />
The Journals of the Lewis and Clark Expedition first mentions women being treated “with little rispect, and compel them to perform every species of drudgery.” Three days later, they wrote how women are seen as sacred in their society. Why is there this discrepancy within this short time period? Is there a possibility their first encounters and opinions were proven to be misinterpreted or are they describing two different groups of Indians? –Rory Reese<br />
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My question is a sort of spin off from Rory's. How did Sacajawea affect this rather poor opinion of females reflected in the beginning of their journey. It's well known that without her, the trip probably would have failed, or at least been much more difficult. What first influenced them to have such a poor opinion to start with? --Kathleen Dray<br />
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In response to the last two questions: I think their first impressions were probably a little skewed, as they only saw actions without the reasoning behind them (as we often do). As they became semi-encultured (a lot of learning can happen in 3 days) they probably saw that despite the menail duties there was a lot of respect or something like that.--Gracie Ofslager<br />
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In his very first entry, Lewis describes how the Natives fell on the deer carcas like "famished dogs," and how he also mentioned they were in major poverty. Why was that so? It seemed like these natives were pretty self sufficent, yet they were starving. Was it jus that the expidetion came at a time when food was not very plentiful, or was this a regular thing? -Kristina Scrimshaw<br />
<br />
== Cherokees Debate Removal, John Ross and Elias Boudinot, 1836-1837 ==<br />
<br />
In the Reply to John Ross 1837, Elias Boudinot talks about the whites intermarrying, did they have the same views as their children as they did slave children with white fathers, did the blood percentage give them a better stance in society? Lauren Hicks<br />
<br />
How unreasonable is it for Cherokees to ask to be protected by the laws they were forced to abide by in an effort to become citizens? Isn't this the same with illegal immigration form Mexico? - Landon James<br />
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I think it is interesting that the Cherokees agree to respect and adhere to any treaty they feel they are bound to adhere to, why would they ever feel like that? Also, the Cherokees say that their best weapon is that of argument, seems to me like they would make good lawyers, plus they would have a lot to argue and protest in court anyways. Were there any Native American lawyers or were they denied that privelege of profession just as the African Americans were? - Landon James<br />
<br />
This was really interesting to me because it shows on a larger scale the impact of American Indian policy. Removal alone was a big enough impact on the Cherokees but also to look a little closer we see how removal not only tore them from their home but tore them apart as a nation. We see two men here who have different views one advocating resisting removal as a way to save their culture and another advocating removal as the means to saving the people and culture. The depth of damage inflicted on Native Americans seems to only increase with closer examination.-Melissa Brokaw<br />
<br />
I agree with Melissa in that this document showed the impact of the removal of the Indians on a larger scale that we have not yet been able to see. It seems a little ironic that people who want freedom are so quick to push the Native Americans off their land. - Courtney Newcomb<br />
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I wonder what the removal of the Indians did to their personal identity. I wonder how the next generation saw itself. --Gracie Ofslager (is really cool).<br />
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I wonder first, was it ever really even considered by the Americans to make the Indians citizens? Also, for those who sided with John Ross, did they ever consider that this pushing Westward by the Americans would continue and not just be a one time thing or did they think that this would be an isolated incident? -- Katie Mauro<br />
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== Madison Hemings Recalls Life as Jefferson's Enslaved Son, 1873 ==<br />
"Madison Hemings Recalls Life as Thomas Jefferson's Enslaved Son" I was curious to how prevalent white slave owners fornicated with slaves? In Jefferson's situation there must of been certain individuals who knew of his relationship with Sally Hemings. How did they feel about it and what were the repercussions, if any? Also, how did his wife feel about this, if she knew at all? At the end of the document one of the questions states, how credible is Madison's testimony? I was curious as to others thoughts on this subject. --Nick Scott--<br />
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To comment on Nick's comment above, I am not sure, but I think that Martha, Jefferson's wife had died. And remember in class today, Dr. McClurken said that it was very normal for slave owners to have relationships with their slaves. But I was also wondering, since he had so much power and was 'famous', was it then looked down upon? Also to try to answer your last question, I see both ways of it being credible and not. Credible because his story does actually fit to other research and I wouldn't doubt him to know a little of his family history. I can also see how its not credible because he could be playing this up, just to make Jefferson have a bad reputation, because there is almost no reason to believe it was not Jefferson.- Taylor Warner<br />
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I found "Madison Hamings Recalls Life..." to be really interesting. Everything seems different when stated in the perspective of a slave's relationship with his family. I'm curious of what would have happened if Martha didn't die for another 5+ years. Would Jefferson have had relations with Sally Hemings anyways? Or would the secret have been harder to keep since his wife would have been still alive? -Ally Campo <br />
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In Madisons Hemings Recalls Life as Thomas Jefferson's Enslaved Son, He says Thomas Jefferson had his public life and his private life,how much did the Hemings children know about his public role in the government and did they know his stances on slavery and how he never wanted to make a statement against it. Lauren Hicks<br />
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Its apparent that many times a white slave would engage in sexual relations with his women slaves. However i am curious to when these slaves had kids how were they treated. Were the whites slaves for the most part imbarressed that they had a kid with a black women so they would treat their son or daughter just like any other slave, or would they treat them like or similiar to a white son or daughter?- Bryan Quintana<br />
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Madison Hemings’ Interview was interesting to read since we had just discussed Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings in class. Madison seems to remember Jefferson as a nice person. He says that he treated the entire Hemmings family well and they were allowed to stay around the “great house” and not have to do heavy work, while most of the other slaves were out in the fields. He also says that Jefferson has a good temperament and is even seen among the slave mechanics, but that he was not interested in plantation work so he left that to the stewards and overseers. I feel like Hemings could have also had a partial view of Jefferson because it seems that he never really interacted with the other slaves who were working in the fields. ~Renee Rosser<br />
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In the Interview with Madison Hemings, I found it interesting how well he reported him and his family being treated. All the memebers of his family just had small daily chores to do that did not require a lot of labor. It even sounded like they had a lot of free time once they finished their chores. We talked about the privledged position that the Hemings held in Jefferson's household during class, but I still thought they would have had a heavier workload. So, it surprised me to see how exceptionally the Hemings really were treated according to this interview. -Iris Onks<br />
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In Madison Heming's recollection he says that his brother Beverly married a white woman and his sister Harriet married a white man. Even if Beverly and Harriet could pull off being white because of their light skin, didn't the families of their spouses question their background or lack there of? Would they have made up stories to protect their true identity from being revealed? --Helen Dinndorf<br />
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After reading this, I was kind of impressed just how secret political figures could keep their lives. Even now, as in class, we can only speculate (though I'm fairly positive the Hemings were Jerfferson's children) as to whether or not Jefferson actually fathered Heming's children. His relationship could have easily been blown open as a smear campaign, servants could have told someone, and even when the supposed multiple children of Jefferson's came forward there still was a great amount of secrecy. How was he able to maintain such secrecy?-- Kathleen Dray<br />
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In reading Madison Hemings' recollection, I find a lot of the family's relationships as well as Madison's recollections from the Jefferson household very interesting. But at the same time, I began to wonder if this was similar in any way to some of the slave narratives we read in the past, like were some of the things Hemings actually said or wrote changed to make it seem like him and his family were better off than they actually were? Or is this different from those and we can safely assume this to be an accurate re-telling? --Christen Booher<br />
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After I read this, I started thinking about whether or not this testimony was very credible. Certainly it is based on concrete facts, since Madison there witnessing everything going on at the Jefferson Plantation. However, I feel as though Madison has a little bit of resentment towards his father, who we (as well as Madison) are assuming is Thomas Jefferson. He mentions that TJ only showed affection to his white children and grandchildren. Madison seems to understand why, but still I think he has some resentment (legitimately). To answer some of the questions posed by others: in my opinion, I strongly think that TJ would not have had sexual relations with Sally if his wife (Martha) was still alive. As Prof. McClurken mentioned in class the other day, one of the reasons as to why TJ decided to have a relationship with Sally could have been because Sally was in fact a lot like her half-sister, Martha. We obviously will never know what was going on in their heads, but my guess is that TJ was lonely, naturally, and Sally proved to be a comforting companion for him. <br />
~Megan Tisdelle~<br />
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I noticed that Madison Hemings, once freed, lived in Ohio. I am in a ‘Novels of Toni Morrison’ class, and I have noticed that many of her freed slaves also travel to Ohio. Is there any correlation here? For example, as a new state, was Ohio a sort of rallying place for freed slaves? ~Kristen Lonsdorf<br />
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When Jefferson persuaded Sally Hemmings to return to VA with him, I thought it was out of love but i guess not because Madison stated that Jefferson did not show affections toward his siblings and him. I find that odd. And I find it kind of confusing when he promised her that her children would be set free at the age of 21. To my understanding the child she was pragnant with in France is her first. So wouldn't her child be free anyways since she is free in france? -- Eun Yi<br />
== Sarah Grimke on the Status of Women ==<br />
<br />
I found it very interesting that the value placed in women changed so drastically within only 30 years. After the Revolution, women were required to go to school in order to be able to teach their future sons how to live, work, and thrive in a republic. However, Grimke's article suggests that this is not true anymore as women were now supposed to be there for dancing, cooking, and showing off. American ideals had changed in a little more than a generation. I guess they mothers after the Revolution taught their sons so well that they do not need women anymore. -Alex Zelin<br />
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<br />
In her Letters on the Equality of the Sexes, Sarah Grimké argued two main points. First, that God had made equality among the sexes, and that men were the ones who created women’s inferior condition by denying them opportunity. Second, she insisted that women should have same rights and duties as men, and thus should be able to fully participate in education, religion, work and politics (including the abolition movement). Clearly Sarah made the case for women’s equality with passionate conviction…but did her radical words win the agreement of more than just a small minority of women? If not, then why?<br />
~Megan Tisdelle~<br />
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== Calloway Readings ==<br />
<br />
'''Joseph Brant "Indian vs. White Civilization, 1789'''<br><br />
Joseph Brant "Indian vs. White Civilization, 1789. This document reminded me of a really good HBO documentary movie I saw a couple of years ago, "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee." The experiences of Joseph Brant were similar to the main character in the movie. I know the setting for the movie was later in the 19th century, but if anyone has seen this movie, do they know if it is historically accurate to some extent? If it is I highly recommend the movie to get a visualization of what was occurring during this time period. --Nick Scott--<br />
<br />
After reading Joseph Brant's response to the question of Indian vs. White Civilization, i began thinking about how the different influences of the society made them no uniquely different. The indian society never had the mentatlity of individuality over the group while, the american society came over with that society. My question is then, after the colonists settled, was there an increase in crime and "individual-minded" behavior among the native american societies? Or did they always did they always find the things that the colonists to be innately evil?- Dani Jones<br />
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In the comparison of Indians vs. White Civilizations by Joseph Brant, he says that he would rather die of Indian torture than to live a year in a colonist prison. He compares the two civilizations saying that there are not many villains and no robberies among the Indians and their crimes are impartially punished by judges. The Whites have horrible prisons that they keep people in but most of the people are in jail for debt which cannot be repaid if they are not working. He also talks about the Whites calling themselves Christians, but then treating their own people so badly. I think this passage is important because it shows a man who has experienced both cultures and points out that they Indians may not be as savage as the Whites make them out to be. ~Renee Rosser<br />
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In the Joseph Brant readings, I noticed that he talked a lot about the prisons and the justice system of both the cultures. Is he just doing this to compare? If so, why is this so significant? Is it just an example? -Kristina Scrimshaw<br />
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'''Alexander McGillivray's letter'''<br><br />
Several small details caught my eye when reading Alexander McGillivray's letter. First of all in the introduction before the letter it mentioned that it was very common for Scottish and English traders to many Indian women but wouldn't there be a language barrier? Did this not matter and/or present a problem? Second why did he refer to the King of Spain as "his Most Catholic Majesty"? Lastly, where is the Extensive Territory? Again these are small details but sometimes the small details make the most difference. -Jenna Shevlin<br />
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'''Indian Representatives'''<br><br />
One of the sections in the "Brothers;-" suggestions really struck me as odd. "It appears strange that you should expect [concessions] from us, who have only been defending our just Rights against your invasion." I find the comment ironic as it is the exact opposite of what the Americans were doing. The new settlers, and even the government, were continually forcing Indians out of their lands and attacking them. I know that Indian raids may have been common, but nowhere near to the extent of they brutality the American's used to gain land. It's interesting how words can be twisted around to place the "blame" on someone else. -Alex Zelin</div>199.111.85.50https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=HIST_131--Week_9_Questions/CommentsHIST 131--Week 9 Questions/Comments2008-03-21T03:17:41Z<p>199.111.85.50: /* Meriwether Lewis Journal, 1805 */</p>
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<div>== Peter Wendover, July 4th, 1806, A Jeffersonian Sailmaker ==<br />
A Jeffersonian Sailmaker's Fourth of July Address - While reading this source i was noticing the somewhat hypocritical this man's stance was on "liberty". He kept saying things like "not inured to the tactics of war, untaught in the practice of barbarity, not accustomed to the clang of arms" to describe his fellow countrymen, apparently forgetting the way they treated the Native Americans and the African Americans! He also said they should "do to others as we wish them to do unto us"...did the colonists actually not realize the hypocrisy in their so called "morals"? He was so blatantly saying how great America was for letting everyone experience liberty and freedom, obviously forgetting that they weren't actually doing that at all! - Jessie Bright<br />
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First of all, in "A Jeffersonian Sailmaker's Fourth of July Address" what are they talking about when they say "COLUMBIA IS FREE..."? Are they referring to D.C. because at this point the capital had been moved there? And also, it seems ironic how he uses the word slavery when he says, "death is terror, but slavery is death" because that is what they are putting African Americans through. If they realize how horrible it is to feel like a slave, then why would they have others be in that role? <br />
-Ally Campo <br />
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In "A Jeffersonian Sailmaker's Fourth of July Address" why is Columbia a forefront of the article? I'm not really seeing the connection between the Revolution and Columbia? Why was Columbia even noteworthy at the time this was written? I don't see how Columbia has anything to do with the Revolution but maybe I'm just missing the point. -Jenna Shevlin<br />
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As another student commented, while reading "A Jeffersonian Sailmaker's Fourth of July Address," I was surprised by how hypocritical it was. Wendover talks about the "Emancipation of a Nation," "Equal Rights," and "Rights of Man," but all of these apply solely to white males. It just amazes me how people could proclaim these republican ideals and yet refuse to apply them to African Americans and Native Americans. -Iris Onks<br />
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In "A Jeffersonian Sailmaker's Fourth of July Address", I found it interesting how Wendover says, “That republican principles and true patriotism, can only be promoted by the practice of the moral virtues and conscious integrity.” If the people during this time believed republican principles and moral virtue were intertwined, were the personal lives of politicians being criticized? If so, was it anywhere close to what politicians go through today? Emily King<br />
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Wendover states, "...it was left for Americans to convince the potentates of Europe, that the end of all just governemnts was the happiness of the governed," (184). It seems to me that he is describing anarchy here, yet he is in favor of American governmment policies and the constitution. How was this contradiction formed? ---Laura Peters<br />
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In this reading, when Wendover saya, "...Not inured to the tactics of war, untaught in the practice of barbarity, not accustomed to the clang of arms, America trembles; all awake to foreboding fears. All alarmed at the clouds that thicken, Americans collect. The crisis is truly distressing-Death is a terror, but slavery is death."(183) This statement was very interesting because it appears that many find the situation of slavery problematic and upsetting, but yet they view it as a terror. At this point it is implied that slavery is viewed as terror because it is new to many of the colonists; is this true? However, it is also implying that everyone feels trapped by slavery. Which is more likely, the feeling of entrapment or the fact that is just fear of a new concept? Quincey Garcia <br />
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== James Forten protests 1813 PA Law ==<br />
Letters from a Man of Colour... - In this source i noticed how he said that many free black men had property that they earned upon becoming free. I was surprised that this was the case, i always assumed that free black men were still very discriminated against and would never have been able to aquire land after being liberated, he made it seem that many free slaves were well off. I'm sure this isn't the case? Did any free black men or women ever experience a comfortable lifestyle after being freed? - Jessie Bright<br />
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In James Forten's Protest against Pennsylvania, I was wondering if his protest had any effect whatsoever on the Pennsylvania law? I feel like even though he is a wealthy free black, he really has no say because he is black. He makes some excellent and true statements, for example punishing a guilty black man with slavery will not make him better and that the Constitution of Penn said " all men are born equally", but I feel like Penn would just ignore him. Is this true or is part of the reason this law did not get passed because of black men protesting?- Taylor Warner<br />
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In “Letters from a Man of Colour”, James Forten writes how the state of Pennsylvania is a place where “African[s] have justly boasted of rational liberty and the protection of the laws.” Was this a state where free black men actually had more freedom or is this just a persuasive argument Forten is attempting to use to sway the senate? Were these liberties and protection of laws really something for free black men to boast about? –Rory Reese<br />
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I think it is interesting that both African-Americans and Native Americans used the jargon of the American Revolution when trying to get their own rights and freedoms. It makes me wonder if this lead to any guilty feelings on the parts of whites? Having their words and arguments used against them seems to me a to be a rather impactful way of getting the message across yet in most cases it doesn't seem to work. Is there anything to suggest that people found this equally compelling? -Melissa Brokaw<br />
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I found James Forten's Letters to be very provocative. While clearly showing how African Americans felt like they were a part of the new country, it still showed how jilted they were by things like "all men being created equal" like in the Declaration of Independence, yet still the African Americans are being treated like something not worthy of being human. What I found most interesting was how James Forten started out intending to lecture the Senate on the bill, to encourage emancipation, yet by the end of the letter, it seemed like he was shaming the senators for even thinking about this particular course of action. While the bill eventually failed and did not become an established law, it would be interesting to know why the Senators chose against passing it--maybe Forten really did shame them into thinking otherwise... -- Meganne Lemon<br />
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Where were these letters by Forten published? Were they only for the eyes of white men controling legal power in Pennsylcania, or were they viewed by many in the general public? Also, was James Forten one of a kind, being a wealthy free born African American in Pennyslvania, or were there many others like him?--Helen Dinndorf<br />
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Although I find James Forten’s proclamations that all men are created equal and his other points excerpted from the Declaration of Independence and Pennsylvania Constitution to be persuasive, I feel the whites of this time would not. At this time, don’t many whites still maintain the mentality that blacks are sub-human and therefore don’t deserve the same rights. I realize significant changes have been made regarding slaves, but when whites have for so long viewed blacks in one way, it is hard to adjust this frame of mind, especially so dramatically as to call them their equals. One tactic I feel was probably good for Forten’s argument was when he said “we sincerely hope, the white men, whom we should look upon as our protectors…” This could make them look upon blacks as something weak and below them, like a child who is pleading for their protection, rather than an equal who is there to challenge them and the laws they wish to implement. --Christen Booher<br />
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On pages 186-187, Forten speaks of how the authors of the constitution saw black men as equal, and that they realized they could not enslave black men because of lack of authority. Did Forten not critically look at the men behind the constitution and see that many supporters of the constitution, especially Thomas Jefferson, owned slaves. Also, if Forten's perception were true, why wouldn't the forefathers of America not outlaw slavery in the constitution? ---Laura Peters<br />
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I agree with Christen in that James Forten claims that all men are created equal, but at this time most northern states still were going through the Emancipation laws, declaring that they were going to give up slavery, so i would just like to klnow what the whites of the time thought of James Forten, after reading what he has said. Were they inspired to change their views of blacks rights?-Paul Carter<br />
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I find it odd that, immediately after exclaiming that “GOD created all men equal,” James Forten goes on to say, “the white men, whom we should look upon as our protectors.” I feel that this is a contradiction; if they are all equal no man should have more power than another, i.e. be his protector. Perhaps, however, this is a way of buttering up the white audience? Flattery, after all, can get you everywhere. Forten would certainly not have been listened to if he attacked the white men. Therefore, I would like to believe that this assertion made by Forten is not his opinion, but rather, a way to pacify his audience into continuing to read his protest. ~Kristen Lonsdorf<br />
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== TJ’s Private & Public Indian Policy as seen in a Letter to Gov. Wm. Henry Harrison, 1803 & a speech to Native Americans ambassadors in 1806 ==<br />
In his address to the Mandans, why would Jefferson put their relationship in the context of father and child? I would assume that since they just came out of a war where they were fighting to get out of a relationship like that, that in turn, the would be wary to utilize the same method? -Dani Jones<br />
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After our discussion in class today about Jefferson's conflicting public v. private attitudes on slavery and his inability to take action one way or the other is further reiterated in comparing his private letter to Governor Harrison with his public address to the People of the Mandan Nation. In his private letter Jefferson speaks in a conniving manner and it sounds as if his plan to to trick the Indians into getting them to do what he wants. However, in his public address Jefferson speaks of the friendship between the government and the Mandan nation. Throughout his address Jefferson subtly asserts his superiority over the Indians by referring to them as his "children" and as his "red brethren". I know Jefferson was conflicted about emancipation but what were his feelings toward Native Americans? Also, we talked about how it was fairly common for slave owners to father children from their slaves so I was wondering if slave owners ever public or even privately acknowledged their sons or daughters? ---Lindsay Bothwell<br />
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Thomas Jefferson is a backstabbing hypocrite. At least that's what I gather from yesterday's discussion on his view of slavery and then reading about his view on Native Americans. However, I understand that this may be because he realizes the importance of promoting a new, united country and that he, as only the third president, may have felt a responsibility to his citizens and while privately believing otherwise, publicly agreed with the general population. (Things certainly have come a long way, haven't they?) I found it interesting how Jefferson called the Native Americans his "red" children, likening their relationship to father and son. I suppose it may have been so that the Indians could feel like they are included under the protection of the president, and could maybe make Jefferson and the government more likable. But then again, privately, it seems like Jefferson would rather the Indians all just go live on another continent. -- Meganne Lemon<br />
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Jefferson’s contrasting private and public Indian policy is shocking. He acts like he wants to keep the Indians completely in the dark while Americans take their land from them. Why did Jefferson think this was the best way to get the Indians land versus forcefully taking it? Did Americans still fear the Indians enough to prevent a war? -Emily King<br />
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In this document, Jefferson states, "When they withdraw themselves to the culture of a small piece of land, they will perceive how useless to them are their extensive forests..." (189). Was Jefferson, who is usually held in high regards as brilliant, really so ignorant to think that Indians would be content contained on a small piece of land, while their forests, in a sense, their livelihood, are being settled by Americans? ---Laura Peters<br />
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In the Address to the Wolf and People of the Mandan Nation, I was impressed by the statement, "We are now your fathers; and you shall not lose by the change. As soon as Spain had agreed to withdraw from all the waters of the Missouri and Mississippi, I felt the desire of becoming acquainted with all my red children beyond the Mississippi, and of uniting them with us as we have those on this side of that river, in the bonds of peace and friendship."(190) This statement was very powerful for me because I felt that there was a true sincerity in living harmoniously with the Native Americans. Do you think that Indians appreciated this gesture, or do you think that they were concerned with the line, "We are now your fathers;"(190), since they were avoiding the empowerment by the whites? Quincey Garcia<br />
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== Meriwether Lewis Journal, 1805 ==<br />
The Journals of the Lewis and Clark Expedition first mentions women being treated “with little rispect, and compel them to perform every species of drudgery.” Three days later, they wrote how women are seen as sacred in their society. Why is there this discrepancy within this short time period? Is there a possibility their first encounters and opinions were proven to be misinterpreted or are they describing two different groups of Indians? –Rory Reese<br />
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My question is a sort of spin off from Rory's. How did Sacajawea affect this rather poor opinion of females reflected in the beginning of their journey. It's well known that without her, the trip probably would have failed, or at least been much more difficult. What first influenced them to have such a poor opinion to start with? --Kathleen Dray<br />
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In response to the last two questions: I think their first impressions were probably a little skewed, as they only saw actions without the reasoning behind them (as we often do). As they became semi-encultured (a lot of learning can happen in 3 days) they probably saw that despite the menail duties there was a lot of respect or something like that.--Gracie Ofslager<br />
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== Cherokees Debate Removal, John Ross and Elias Boudinot, 1836-1837 ==<br />
<br />
In the Reply to John Ross 1837, Elias Boudinot talks about the whites intermarrying, did they have the same views as their children as they did slave children with white fathers, did the blood percentage give them a better stance in society? Lauren Hicks<br />
<br />
This was really interesting to me because it shows on a larger scale the impact of American Indian policy. Removal alone was a big enough impact on the Cherokees but also to look a little closer we see how removal not only tore them from their home but tore them apart as a nation. We see two men here who have different views one advocating resisting removal as a way to save their culture and another advocating removal as the means to saving the people and culture. The depth of damage inflicted on Native Americans seems to only increase with closer examination.-Melissa Brokaw<br />
<br />
I agree with Melissa in that this document showed the impact of the removal of the Indians on a larger scale that we have not yet been able to see. It seems a little ironic that people who want freedom are so quick to push the Native Americans off their land. - Courtney Newcomb<br />
<br />
I wonder what the removal of the Indians did to their personal identity. I wonder how the next generation saw itself. --Gracie Ofslager (is really cool).<br />
<br />
== Madison Hemings Recalls Life as Jefferson's Enslaved Son, 1873 ==<br />
"Madison Hemings Recalls Life as Thomas Jefferson's Enslaved Son" I was curious to how prevalent white slave owners fornicated with slaves? In Jefferson's situation there must of been certain individuals who knew of his relationship with Sally Hemings. How did they feel about it and what were the repercussions, if any? Also, how did his wife feel about this, if she knew at all? At the end of the document one of the questions states, how credible is Madison's testimony? I was curious as to others thoughts on this subject. --Nick Scott--<br />
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To comment on Nick's comment above, I am not sure, but I think that Martha, Jefferson's wife had died. And remember in class today, Dr. McClurken said that it was very normal for slave owners to have relationships with their slaves. But I was also wondering, since he had so much power and was 'famous', was it then looked down upon? Also to try to answer your last question, I see both ways of it being credible and not. Credible because his story does actually fit to other research and I wouldn't doubt him to know a little of his family history. I can also see how its not credible because he could be playing this up, just to make Jefferson have a bad reputation, because there is almost no reason to believe it was not Jefferson.- Taylor Warner<br />
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I found "Madison Hamings Recalls Life..." to be really interesting. Everything seems different when stated in the perspective of a slave's relationship with his family. I'm curious of what would have happened if Martha didn't die for another 5+ years. Would Jefferson have had relations with Sally Hemings anyways? Or would the secret have been harder to keep since his wife would have been still alive? -Ally Campo <br />
<br />
In Madisons Hemings Recalls Life as Thomas Jefferson's Enslaved Son, He says Thomas Jefferson had his public life and his private life,how much did the Hemings children know about his public role in the government and did they know his stances on slavery and how he never wanted to make a statement against it. Lauren Hicks<br />
<br />
Madison Hemings’ Interview was interesting to read since we had just discussed Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings in class. Madison seems to remember Jefferson as a nice person. He says that he treated the entire Hemmings family well and they were allowed to stay around the “great house” and not have to do heavy work, while most of the other slaves were out in the fields. He also says that Jefferson has a good temperament and is even seen among the slave mechanics, but that he was not interested in plantation work so he left that to the stewards and overseers. I feel like Hemings could have also had a partial view of Jefferson because it seems that he never really interacted with the other slaves who were working in the fields. ~Renee Rosser<br />
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In the Interview with Madison Hemings, I found it interesting how well he reported him and his family being treated. All the memebers of his family just had small daily chores to do that did not require a lot of labor. It even sounded like they had a lot of free time once they finished their chores. We talked about the privledged position that the Hemings held in Jefferson's household during class, but I still thought they would have had a heavier workload. So, it surprised me to see how exceptionally the Hemings really were treated according to this interview. -Iris Onks<br />
<br />
In Madison Heming's recollection he says that his brother Beverly married a white woman and his sister Harriet married a white man. Even if Beverly and Harriet could pull off being white because of their light skin, didn't the families of their spouses question their background or lack there of? Would they have made up stories to protect their true identity from being revealed? --Helen Dinndorf<br />
<br />
After reading this, I was kind of impressed just how secret political figures could keep their lives. Even now, as in class, we can only speculate (though I'm fairly positive the Hemings were Jerfferson's children) as to whether or not Jefferson actually fathered Heming's children. His relationship could have easily been blown open as a smear campaign, servants could have told someone, and even when the supposed multiple children of Jefferson's came forward there still was a great amount of secrecy. How was he able to maintain such secrecy?-- Kathleen Dray<br />
<br />
In reading Madison Hemings' recollection, I find a lot of the family's relationships as well as Madison's recollections from the Jefferson household very interesting. But at the same time, I began to wonder if this was similar in any way to some of the slave narratives we read in the past, like were some of the things Hemings actually said or wrote changed to make it seem like him and his family were better off than they actually were? Or is this different from those and we can safely assume this to be an accurate re-telling? --Christen Booher<br />
<br />
I noticed that Madison Hemings, once freed, lived in Ohio. I am in a ‘Novels of Toni Morrison’ class, and I have noticed that many of her freed slaves also travel to Ohio. Is there any correlation here? For example, as a new state, was Ohio a sort of rallying place for freed slaves? ~Kristen Lonsdorf <br />
<br />
== Calloway Readings ==<br />
<br />
'''Joseph Brant "Indian vs. White Civilization, 1789'''<br><br />
Joseph Brant "Indian vs. White Civilization, 1789. This document reminded me of a really good HBO documentary movie I saw a couple of years ago, "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee." The experiences of Joseph Brant were similar to the main character in the movie. I know the setting for the movie was later in the 19th century, but if anyone has seen this movie, do they know if it is historically accurate to some extent? If it is I highly recommend the movie to get a visualization of what was occurring during this time period. --Nick Scott--<br />
<br />
After reading Joseph Brant's response to the question of Indian vs. White Civilization, i began thinking about how the different influences of the society made them no uniquely different. The indian society never had the mentatlity of individuality over the group while, the american society came over with that society. My question is then, after the colonists settled, was there an increase in crime and "individual-minded" behavior among the native american societies? Or did they always did they always find the things that the colonists to be innately evil?- Dani Jones<br />
<br />
In the comparison of Indians vs. White Civilizations by Joseph Brant, he says that he would rather die of Indian torture than to live a year in a colonist prison. He compares the two civilizations saying that there are not many villains and no robberies among the Indians and their crimes are impartially punished by judges. The Whites have horrible prisons that they keep people in but most of the people are in jail for debt which cannot be repaid if they are not working. He also talks about the Whites calling themselves Christians, but then treating their own people so badly. I think this passage is important because it shows a man who has experienced both cultures and points out that they Indians may not be as savage as the Whites make them out to be. ~Renee Rosser<br />
<br />
'''Alexander McGillivray's letter'''<br><br />
Several small details caught my eye when reading Alexander McGillivray's letter. First of all in the introduction before the letter it mentioned that it was very common for Scottish and English traders to many Indian women but wouldn't there be a language barrier? Did this not matter and/or present a problem? Second why did he refer to the King of Spain as "his Most Catholic Majesty"? Lastly, where is the Extensive Territory? Again these are small details but sometimes the small details make the most difference. -Jenna Shevlin</div>199.111.85.50https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=HIST_131--Week_9_Questions/CommentsHIST 131--Week 9 Questions/Comments2008-03-21T03:10:15Z<p>199.111.85.50: /* Cherokees Debate Removal, John Ross and Elias Boudinot, 1836-1837 */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Peter Wendover, July 4th, 1806, A Jeffersonian Sailmaker ==<br />
A Jeffersonian Sailmaker's Fourth of July Address - While reading this source i was noticing the somewhat hypocritical this man's stance was on "liberty". He kept saying things like "not inured to the tactics of war, untaught in the practice of barbarity, not accustomed to the clang of arms" to describe his fellow countrymen, apparently forgetting the way they treated the Native Americans and the African Americans! He also said they should "do to others as we wish them to do unto us"...did the colonists actually not realize the hypocrisy in their so called "morals"? He was so blatantly saying how great America was for letting everyone experience liberty and freedom, obviously forgetting that they weren't actually doing that at all! - Jessie Bright<br />
<br />
First of all, in "A Jeffersonian Sailmaker's Fourth of July Address" what are they talking about when they say "COLUMBIA IS FREE..."? Are they referring to D.C. because at this point the capital had been moved there? And also, it seems ironic how he uses the word slavery when he says, "death is terror, but slavery is death" because that is what they are putting African Americans through. If they realize how horrible it is to feel like a slave, then why would they have others be in that role? <br />
-Ally Campo <br />
<br />
In "A Jeffersonian Sailmaker's Fourth of July Address" why is Columbia a forefront of the article? I'm not really seeing the connection between the Revolution and Columbia? Why was Columbia even noteworthy at the time this was written? I don't see how Columbia has anything to do with the Revolution but maybe I'm just missing the point. -Jenna Shevlin<br />
<br />
As another student commented, while reading "A Jeffersonian Sailmaker's Fourth of July Address," I was surprised by how hypocritical it was. Wendover talks about the "Emancipation of a Nation," "Equal Rights," and "Rights of Man," but all of these apply solely to white males. It just amazes me how people could proclaim these republican ideals and yet refuse to apply them to African Americans and Native Americans. -Iris Onks<br />
<br />
In "A Jeffersonian Sailmaker's Fourth of July Address", I found it interesting how Wendover says, “That republican principles and true patriotism, can only be promoted by the practice of the moral virtues and conscious integrity.” If the people during this time believed republican principles and moral virtue were intertwined, were the personal lives of politicians being criticized? If so, was it anywhere close to what politicians go through today? Emily King<br />
<br />
Wendover states, "...it was left for Americans to convince the potentates of Europe, that the end of all just governemnts was the happiness of the governed," (184). It seems to me that he is describing anarchy here, yet he is in favor of American governmment policies and the constitution. How was this contradiction formed? ---Laura Peters<br />
<br />
In this reading, when Wendover saya, "...Not inured to the tactics of war, untaught in the practice of barbarity, not accustomed to the clang of arms, America trembles; all awake to foreboding fears. All alarmed at the clouds that thicken, Americans collect. The crisis is truly distressing-Death is a terror, but slavery is death."(183) This statement was very interesting because it appears that many find the situation of slavery problematic and upsetting, but yet they view it as a terror. At this point it is implied that slavery is viewed as terror because it is new to many of the colonists; is this true? However, it is also implying that everyone feels trapped by slavery. Which is more likely, the feeling of entrapment or the fact that is just fear of a new concept? Quincey Garcia <br />
<br />
== James Forten protests 1813 PA Law ==<br />
Letters from a Man of Colour... - In this source i noticed how he said that many free black men had property that they earned upon becoming free. I was surprised that this was the case, i always assumed that free black men were still very discriminated against and would never have been able to aquire land after being liberated, he made it seem that many free slaves were well off. I'm sure this isn't the case? Did any free black men or women ever experience a comfortable lifestyle after being freed? - Jessie Bright<br />
<br />
<br />
In James Forten's Protest against Pennsylvania, I was wondering if his protest had any effect whatsoever on the Pennsylvania law? I feel like even though he is a wealthy free black, he really has no say because he is black. He makes some excellent and true statements, for example punishing a guilty black man with slavery will not make him better and that the Constitution of Penn said " all men are born equally", but I feel like Penn would just ignore him. Is this true or is part of the reason this law did not get passed because of black men protesting?- Taylor Warner<br />
<br />
In “Letters from a Man of Colour”, James Forten writes how the state of Pennsylvania is a place where “African[s] have justly boasted of rational liberty and the protection of the laws.” Was this a state where free black men actually had more freedom or is this just a persuasive argument Forten is attempting to use to sway the senate? Were these liberties and protection of laws really something for free black men to boast about? –Rory Reese<br />
<br />
I think it is interesting that both African-Americans and Native Americans used the jargon of the American Revolution when trying to get their own rights and freedoms. It makes me wonder if this lead to any guilty feelings on the parts of whites? Having their words and arguments used against them seems to me a to be a rather impactful way of getting the message across yet in most cases it doesn't seem to work. Is there anything to suggest that people found this equally compelling? -Melissa Brokaw<br />
<br />
I found James Forten's Letters to be very provocative. While clearly showing how African Americans felt like they were a part of the new country, it still showed how jilted they were by things like "all men being created equal" like in the Declaration of Independence, yet still the African Americans are being treated like something not worthy of being human. What I found most interesting was how James Forten started out intending to lecture the Senate on the bill, to encourage emancipation, yet by the end of the letter, it seemed like he was shaming the senators for even thinking about this particular course of action. While the bill eventually failed and did not become an established law, it would be interesting to know why the Senators chose against passing it--maybe Forten really did shame them into thinking otherwise... -- Meganne Lemon<br />
<br />
Where were these letters by Forten published? Were they only for the eyes of white men controling legal power in Pennsylcania, or were they viewed by many in the general public? Also, was James Forten one of a kind, being a wealthy free born African American in Pennyslvania, or were there many others like him?--Helen Dinndorf<br />
<br />
Although I find James Forten’s proclamations that all men are created equal and his other points excerpted from the Declaration of Independence and Pennsylvania Constitution to be persuasive, I feel the whites of this time would not. At this time, don’t many whites still maintain the mentality that blacks are sub-human and therefore don’t deserve the same rights. I realize significant changes have been made regarding slaves, but when whites have for so long viewed blacks in one way, it is hard to adjust this frame of mind, especially so dramatically as to call them their equals. One tactic I feel was probably good for Forten’s argument was when he said “we sincerely hope, the white men, whom we should look upon as our protectors…” This could make them look upon blacks as something weak and below them, like a child who is pleading for their protection, rather than an equal who is there to challenge them and the laws they wish to implement. --Christen Booher<br />
<br />
On pages 186-187, Forten speaks of how the authors of the constitution saw black men as equal, and that they realized they could not enslave black men because of lack of authority. Did Forten not critically look at the men behind the constitution and see that many supporters of the constitution, especially Thomas Jefferson, owned slaves. Also, if Forten's perception were true, why wouldn't the forefathers of America not outlaw slavery in the constitution? ---Laura Peters<br />
<br />
I agree with Christen in that James Forten claims that all men are created equal, but at this time most northern states still were going through the Emancipation laws, declaring that they were going to give up slavery, so i would just like to klnow what the whites of the time thought of James Forten, after reading what he has said. Were they inspired to change their views of blacks rights?-Paul Carter<br />
<br />
I find it odd that, immediately after exclaiming that “GOD created all men equal,” James Forten goes on to say, “the white men, whom we should look upon as our protectors.” I feel that this is a contradiction; if they are all equal no man should have more power than another, i.e. be his protector. Perhaps, however, this is a way of buttering up the white audience? Flattery, after all, can get you everywhere. Forten would certainly not have been listened to if he attacked the white men. Therefore, I would like to believe that this assertion made by Forten is not his opinion, but rather, a way to pacify his audience into continuing to read his protest. ~Kristen Lonsdorf<br />
<br />
== TJ’s Private & Public Indian Policy as seen in a Letter to Gov. Wm. Henry Harrison, 1803 & a speech to Native Americans ambassadors in 1806 ==<br />
In his address to the Mandans, why would Jefferson put their relationship in the context of father and child? I would assume that since they just came out of a war where they were fighting to get out of a relationship like that, that in turn, the would be wary to utilize the same method? -Dani Jones<br />
<br />
After our discussion in class today about Jefferson's conflicting public v. private attitudes on slavery and his inability to take action one way or the other is further reiterated in comparing his private letter to Governor Harrison with his public address to the People of the Mandan Nation. In his private letter Jefferson speaks in a conniving manner and it sounds as if his plan to to trick the Indians into getting them to do what he wants. However, in his public address Jefferson speaks of the friendship between the government and the Mandan nation. Throughout his address Jefferson subtly asserts his superiority over the Indians by referring to them as his "children" and as his "red brethren". I know Jefferson was conflicted about emancipation but what were his feelings toward Native Americans? Also, we talked about how it was fairly common for slave owners to father children from their slaves so I was wondering if slave owners ever public or even privately acknowledged their sons or daughters? ---Lindsay Bothwell<br />
<br />
Thomas Jefferson is a backstabbing hypocrite. At least that's what I gather from yesterday's discussion on his view of slavery and then reading about his view on Native Americans. However, I understand that this may be because he realizes the importance of promoting a new, united country and that he, as only the third president, may have felt a responsibility to his citizens and while privately believing otherwise, publicly agreed with the general population. (Things certainly have come a long way, haven't they?) I found it interesting how Jefferson called the Native Americans his "red" children, likening their relationship to father and son. I suppose it may have been so that the Indians could feel like they are included under the protection of the president, and could maybe make Jefferson and the government more likable. But then again, privately, it seems like Jefferson would rather the Indians all just go live on another continent. -- Meganne Lemon<br />
<br />
Jefferson’s contrasting private and public Indian policy is shocking. He acts like he wants to keep the Indians completely in the dark while Americans take their land from them. Why did Jefferson think this was the best way to get the Indians land versus forcefully taking it? Did Americans still fear the Indians enough to prevent a war? -Emily King<br />
<br />
In this document, Jefferson states, "When they withdraw themselves to the culture of a small piece of land, they will perceive how useless to them are their extensive forests..." (189). Was Jefferson, who is usually held in high regards as brilliant, really so ignorant to think that Indians would be content contained on a small piece of land, while their forests, in a sense, their livelihood, are being settled by Americans? ---Laura Peters<br />
<br />
In the Address to the Wolf and People of the Mandan Nation, I was impressed by the statement, "We are now your fathers; and you shall not lose by the change. As soon as Spain had agreed to withdraw from all the waters of the Missouri and Mississippi, I felt the desire of becoming acquainted with all my red children beyond the Mississippi, and of uniting them with us as we have those on this side of that river, in the bonds of peace and friendship."(190) This statement was very powerful for me because I felt that there was a true sincerity in living harmoniously with the Native Americans. Do you think that Indians appreciated this gesture, or do you think that they were concerned with the line, "We are now your fathers;"(190), since they were avoiding the empowerment by the whites? Quincey Garcia<br />
<br />
== Meriwether Lewis Journal, 1805 ==<br />
The Journals of the Lewis and Clark Expedition first mentions women being treated “with little rispect, and compel them to perform every species of drudgery.” Three days later, they wrote how women are seen as sacred in their society. Why is there this discrepancy within this short time period? Is there a possibility their first encounters and opinions were proven to be misinterpreted or are they describing two different groups of Indians? –Rory Reese<br />
<br />
My question is a sort of spin off from Rory's. How did Sacajawea affect this rather poor opinion of females reflected in the beginning of their journey. It's well known that without her, the trip probably would have failed, or at least been much more difficult. What first influenced them to have such a poor opinion to start with? --Kathleen Dray<br />
<br />
== Cherokees Debate Removal, John Ross and Elias Boudinot, 1836-1837 ==<br />
<br />
In the Reply to John Ross 1837, Elias Boudinot talks about the whites intermarrying, did they have the same views as their children as they did slave children with white fathers, did the blood percentage give them a better stance in society? Lauren Hicks<br />
<br />
This was really interesting to me because it shows on a larger scale the impact of American Indian policy. Removal alone was a big enough impact on the Cherokees but also to look a little closer we see how removal not only tore them from their home but tore them apart as a nation. We see two men here who have different views one advocating resisting removal as a way to save their culture and another advocating removal as the means to saving the people and culture. The depth of damage inflicted on Native Americans seems to only increase with closer examination.-Melissa Brokaw<br />
<br />
I agree with Melissa in that this document showed the impact of the removal of the Indians on a larger scale that we have not yet been able to see. It seems a little ironic that people who want freedom are so quick to push the Native Americans off their land. - Courtney Newcomb<br />
<br />
I wonder what the removal of the Indians did to their personal identity. I wonder how the next generation saw itself. --Gracie Ofslager (is really cool).<br />
<br />
== Madison Hemings Recalls Life as Jefferson's Enslaved Son, 1873 ==<br />
"Madison Hemings Recalls Life as Thomas Jefferson's Enslaved Son" I was curious to how prevalent white slave owners fornicated with slaves? In Jefferson's situation there must of been certain individuals who knew of his relationship with Sally Hemings. How did they feel about it and what were the repercussions, if any? Also, how did his wife feel about this, if she knew at all? At the end of the document one of the questions states, how credible is Madison's testimony? I was curious as to others thoughts on this subject. --Nick Scott--<br />
<br />
To comment on Nick's comment above, I am not sure, but I think that Martha, Jefferson's wife had died. And remember in class today, Dr. McClurken said that it was very normal for slave owners to have relationships with their slaves. But I was also wondering, since he had so much power and was 'famous', was it then looked down upon? Also to try to answer your last question, I see both ways of it being credible and not. Credible because his story does actually fit to other research and I wouldn't doubt him to know a little of his family history. I can also see how its not credible because he could be playing this up, just to make Jefferson have a bad reputation, because there is almost no reason to believe it was not Jefferson.- Taylor Warner<br />
<br />
I found "Madison Hamings Recalls Life..." to be really interesting. Everything seems different when stated in the perspective of a slave's relationship with his family. I'm curious of what would have happened if Martha didn't die for another 5+ years. Would Jefferson have had relations with Sally Hemings anyways? Or would the secret have been harder to keep since his wife would have been still alive? -Ally Campo <br />
<br />
In Madisons Hemings Recalls Life as Thomas Jefferson's Enslaved Son, He says Thomas Jefferson had his public life and his private life,how much did the Hemings children know about his public role in the government and did they know his stances on slavery and how he never wanted to make a statement against it. Lauren Hicks<br />
<br />
Madison Hemings’ Interview was interesting to read since we had just discussed Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings in class. Madison seems to remember Jefferson as a nice person. He says that he treated the entire Hemmings family well and they were allowed to stay around the “great house” and not have to do heavy work, while most of the other slaves were out in the fields. He also says that Jefferson has a good temperament and is even seen among the slave mechanics, but that he was not interested in plantation work so he left that to the stewards and overseers. I feel like Hemings could have also had a partial view of Jefferson because it seems that he never really interacted with the other slaves who were working in the fields. ~Renee Rosser<br />
<br />
In the Interview with Madison Hemings, I found it interesting how well he reported him and his family being treated. All the memebers of his family just had small daily chores to do that did not require a lot of labor. It even sounded like they had a lot of free time once they finished their chores. We talked about the privledged position that the Hemings held in Jefferson's household during class, but I still thought they would have had a heavier workload. So, it surprised me to see how exceptionally the Hemings really were treated according to this interview. -Iris Onks<br />
<br />
In Madison Heming's recollection he says that his brother Beverly married a white woman and his sister Harriet married a white man. Even if Beverly and Harriet could pull off being white because of their light skin, didn't the families of their spouses question their background or lack there of? Would they have made up stories to protect their true identity from being revealed? --Helen Dinndorf<br />
<br />
After reading this, I was kind of impressed just how secret political figures could keep their lives. Even now, as in class, we can only speculate (though I'm fairly positive the Hemings were Jerfferson's children) as to whether or not Jefferson actually fathered Heming's children. His relationship could have easily been blown open as a smear campaign, servants could have told someone, and even when the supposed multiple children of Jefferson's came forward there still was a great amount of secrecy. How was he able to maintain such secrecy?-- Kathleen Dray<br />
<br />
In reading Madison Hemings' recollection, I find a lot of the family's relationships as well as Madison's recollections from the Jefferson household very interesting. But at the same time, I began to wonder if this was similar in any way to some of the slave narratives we read in the past, like were some of the things Hemings actually said or wrote changed to make it seem like him and his family were better off than they actually were? Or is this different from those and we can safely assume this to be an accurate re-telling? --Christen Booher<br />
<br />
I noticed that Madison Hemings, once freed, lived in Ohio. I am in a ‘Novels of Toni Morrison’ class, and I have noticed that many of her freed slaves also travel to Ohio. Is there any correlation here? For example, as a new state, was Ohio a sort of rallying place for freed slaves? ~Kristen Lonsdorf <br />
<br />
== Calloway Readings ==<br />
<br />
'''Joseph Brant "Indian vs. White Civilization, 1789'''<br><br />
Joseph Brant "Indian vs. White Civilization, 1789. This document reminded me of a really good HBO documentary movie I saw a couple of years ago, "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee." The experiences of Joseph Brant were similar to the main character in the movie. I know the setting for the movie was later in the 19th century, but if anyone has seen this movie, do they know if it is historically accurate to some extent? If it is I highly recommend the movie to get a visualization of what was occurring during this time period. --Nick Scott--<br />
<br />
After reading Joseph Brant's response to the question of Indian vs. White Civilization, i began thinking about how the different influences of the society made them no uniquely different. The indian society never had the mentatlity of individuality over the group while, the american society came over with that society. My question is then, after the colonists settled, was there an increase in crime and "individual-minded" behavior among the native american societies? Or did they always did they always find the things that the colonists to be innately evil?- Dani Jones<br />
<br />
In the comparison of Indians vs. White Civilizations by Joseph Brant, he says that he would rather die of Indian torture than to live a year in a colonist prison. He compares the two civilizations saying that there are not many villains and no robberies among the Indians and their crimes are impartially punished by judges. The Whites have horrible prisons that they keep people in but most of the people are in jail for debt which cannot be repaid if they are not working. He also talks about the Whites calling themselves Christians, but then treating their own people so badly. I think this passage is important because it shows a man who has experienced both cultures and points out that they Indians may not be as savage as the Whites make them out to be. ~Renee Rosser<br />
<br />
'''Alexander McGillivray's letter'''<br><br />
Several small details caught my eye when reading Alexander McGillivray's letter. First of all in the introduction before the letter it mentioned that it was very common for Scottish and English traders to many Indian women but wouldn't there be a language barrier? Did this not matter and/or present a problem? Second why did he refer to the King of Spain as "his Most Catholic Majesty"? Lastly, where is the Extensive Territory? Again these are small details but sometimes the small details make the most difference. -Jenna Shevlin</div>199.111.85.50https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_9_Questions/Comments328--Week 9 Questions/Comments2008-03-20T06:39:10Z<p>199.111.85.50: /* Lydia Mendoza recalls her career in the Depression */</p>
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<div>== "I Want You Women Up North to Know" by Tillie Olson ==<br />
<br />
In "I Want You Women Up North to Know" by Tillie Olson I found this line hilarious " ...she says that he prays and dreams of a another world...a heaven (which he does not know was brought to earth in 1917 in Russia, by workers like him)"...hind-sight is 20/20 right?- Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
I found this reading interesting but at the same time confusing. Tillie Olson is clearly attacking the women in the north who are buying the clothes that are being made, but its these women that are allowing the women she is writing about to have their jobs. Yes, their conditions are horrible and the pay is horrible, but thats not a reason to attack the other women I would think. I would also think that the depression, while it might have lessened in the Northern cities, was still affecting their lives, so her accusations seem to me to be unjustified.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
I found it interesting that Tillie Olson used a poem to express the conditions of the sweatships and garment workers. It is a very disturbing and graphic poem. A poem tends to be beautiful and lyrical but this really stands out because of how harsh it is in tone. It was really effective in creating the image of such a terrible life. -Kendall Haring<br />
<br />
Did the South have a harder time in the Great Depression because it was less industrialized? – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
== Annelise Orleck, "Militant Housewives of the Depression" ==<br />
<br />
I was amazed to learn how organized and militant housewives were during the Great Depression. Prior to reading this week's reading, I didn't know people were able to actually find constructive ways of regaining a semblance of their previous way of life during the Great Depression. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I LOVED this reading! I enjoyed seeing how women reacted to some of the hardships of the depression in a more aggressive way. I found it interesting that Orleck mentions that the women who were speaking out weren't doing so because they wanted the attention but because they wanted to be able to fulfill their duties as wives and mothers, which fits into the idea of what a woman was supposed to be doing, making their efforts more acceptable in society. I had no idea that they were able to accomplish so much or that the movement of housewives was so widespread across the U.S.! These I think are definitely ones who, if I was a mother during this period, I would want my children to respect and look up to because they were fighting for something they believed so strongly in (even though I'd prefer to be something more than a housewife). -Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
This really was a fun article to read. I was very impressed at how these women managed to keep their life somewhat the same during the depression. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
I too thought this article was very interesting and empowering. The different tactics these housewives used to ban together and create change brought many interesting images to mind. I really like how Moser points out that these movements were " 'an education for women'". However it is quite upsetting that it took these circumstances for this education to occur and for Americans to make the connection of the value between producing and consuming. I wonder did these movements outlast the images and ideals brought to mind by the 1950's? -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
== All Eleanor Roosevelt readings ==<br />
<br />
All of this week's readings about and created by Eleanor Roosevelt really confirmed history's seemingly high opinion of her. The fact that the Roosevelts' were able to constructively respond to all of their mail during the Great Depression is very admirable. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I thougth it was interesting that women actually took the time to write Eleanor Roosevelt about things that they desperately needed, like clothing and jobs for their husbands. Just thinking in today's world and if a depression happened now, I would think it pointless to write the first lady about what I desperately needed, just because I would think she for one probably would never even read the letter and two she probably wouldn't care much less help me. Yet so many women in the 1930's wrote her their depressing situations, I assume because they were just so desperate and no one else could help them so why couldn't the first lady. They probably thougtht too that Eleanor could influence her husband since he was the President to make him do something. Also article 5 and 6 in MP show that Eleanor did actually take recongnition of the problems during the depression and talked about the problems and spoke actively on many of the problems she saw.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
What I found interesting were the letters to the Roosevelt's and specifically Eleanor in both MAW and MPA. Like Michelle had said I wouldn't be writing to the first lady if there was a depression. Especially in today's society the letter would just get lost or thrown away. One of the letters did bother me a bit. I know it really shouldn't have but, the one about the little girl who wants roller blades.... to me its just so wrong. I know she is younger and doesn't understand what is going on, but it just really bugged me that she asked for roller blades when people are dieing of hunger, and are out of work and on the streets. Then there is this girl asking for roller blades because he friends are making fun of her. No matter what age you are things like that just bother me. Also wouldn't the parents maybe explain to their child that mommy and daddy are having a few problems financially? -- Amanda Taub<br />
'''(McClurken don't make fun of me to much in class, I like to be there when i am made fun of save a little for Tuesday).'''<br />
<br />
In response to Amanda's comment - each person, depending on their age, sex or race values different things - to a twelve year old girl, being ostricised in school because her family could not afford a pair of skates seemed just as traumatizing to her as the woman who could not afford clothes for her baby. I know the difference in the degree of severity between these two requests may seem laughable to some, it just goes to show that the Depression was a reality for all. One common theme that I did notice amongst the various letters is the sense of pride Americans still had, despite their desperate conditions. Here is a discussion question: Do you think Americans today still hold that same sense of pride and dignity? ~Juliann Boyles<br />
<br />
For me the most interesting letter to Eleanor Roosevelt was the second one. The woman thanked Roosevelt for her reply to the last letter, but then said she did not need charity just a loan, even sending in collateral she claimed was valuable. However, what bothers me here is not the fact that the first lady could not possibly begin to make individual loans to people, but the size of this woman's ego or pride. She claimed she gave up her rings which held the highest emotional value to her, this is not true. What holds the highest value in this woman's life is clearly her ability to save face, her pride. If she was truly desperate, and in such great need that she would ask a loan from a stranger, she should be willing to give up her greatest asset; that of her ego, and take the charity that the government has set up for her. I have noticed the same trend more subtly throughout the rest of the readings, what is causing this? Is it a few isolated cases or does this pride fit in with the overall atttidue of the day, or somehow into the middle class ideals we have talked so extensively about? --- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I think that pride can be considered a weakness. I could understand a child asking for something as trivial as skates, but the mother sending a shopping list to Eleanor Roosevelt was bothersome. During a time of extreme financial hardship this women focussed on the clothing of an infant. Then I thought that maybe this woman may not have been able to apply to the Welfare Association. In my interview with a senior woman, she mentioned how her mother during the depression found a way to feed the family and save money. She was suggesting aid from the government, which her husband refused. There was a prevailing attitude at the time that if you were working you were not poor, and therefore did not need the government's assistance. Is the act of asking for a baby's layette prompted by this mother's vanity. This woman had to have clothing from previous children, but she seemed intent on having a new set. Is the ability to dress a child, even during the worst of times, a measure of her ability to be a good mother?--LisaM <br />
<br />
I found the reading of "American Women ASk Eleanor for Help" Interesting as well as heartbreaking. It amazed me to read that within a day Eleanor would have 5 to 8 thousand letters and she made a huge effort to either answer them herself or pass it on to the correct agency. It surprised me the things the ladies asked for varying from roller skates to a job for a husband. How was Roosevelt able to answer all of these letters and was she able to satisfy the needs and wants of most? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
<br />
"Eleanor Roosevelt Urges Better Understanding and Cooperation of Both White and Negro Races," <br />
In this reading, she is basically saying that in order to be respected, African Americans need to raise their standards of living. She says that everyone needs to work together to stop injustices.--Nikole Wellman<br />
<br />
I could not believe that women would give up personal belongings to show Mrs. Roosevelt how much they needed help. One women sent Mrs. Roosevelt her rings in order to receive baby clothes. Did Mrs. Roosevelt actually reply back to some of these women's letters? --Ashley Scutari<br />
<br />
Did the Roosevelts ever follow up with the girls that wrote them and give them the things they requested in their letters? – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
I found the letters written to the Roosevelts rather intriguing. They showed a wide range of people with a variety of problems. I will say that the 12 year old girl is rather oblivious to the times. I know she's only 12, but really - at that age you should be picking up on what's going on around you. What interested me the most was the fact that the authors of these letters obviously thought that Elanor could personally help them. I know that the Roosevelts encouraged letter writing to themselves, but was there an perception throughout the country that the Roosevelts themselves could help out individuals? Did people stop to think that if they were writing the Roosevelts for help, that other people might be to, and that no matter how wealthy or kind or caring they were, that it would be impossible for them to personally help everyone? Was there a vastly different relationship between the President and First Lady and the populace during this era, or was it just desperate times? - Sarah<br />
<br />
== Meridel Lesueur, "Despair of Unemployed Women" ==<br />
<br />
Reading Meridel Lesueur's article really struck me. Just how starved the women were, and the endless sitting at the job bureau day after day. The description of some of their faces really made me feel a little sad. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I found this reading interesting because it showed that the middle class ideals, or what i guess could be described as middle class prejudice or maybe just denial in this case, still affected women even in this time of crisis. Where as before when the economy was good, women were not afforded the same opportunities as men (i.e. lower wages, lower glass ceilings, smaller scope of job opportunities), now in the depression women still arent afforded the same rights and opportunities as men (i.e. no flop houses, a cultural unwillingness to see women living in the parks, and charities only helping the deserving few). -- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
Just the fact that citizens had so much trust in the Roosevelt's, particularly Eleanor, and that they actually did care about the American people, is very refreshing to think about in these jaded times. Phil N.<br />
<br />
This piece really struck me - the despair, the utter hopelessness of these women's lives. But despite everything, many retained their pride, mending their stockings, hiding away in condemned apartments, refusing charity and public displays of poverty. When the author mentioned the one woman who finally broke, it made me think, most of these single women endured starvation and extreme poverty but continued to sit in that office daily waiting for a job that would never come - how strong they were. But somehow, many of these women made it through the Depression - somehow they survived, which really shows the strength of the human condition.~Juliann Boyles<br />
<br />
This piece was so incredible because I got a true sense of the despair of life during the Depression. The images were so vivid: living in condemned apartments, Mrs. Grey, sitting every day at the employment bureau. It emphasized how these women struggled to support their families in such a hopeless time. -Kendall Haring<br />
<br />
Meridel LeSueur highlights that it was very hard for unemployed women in the Depression, and in her discussion she remarks that pretty girls get better jobs. I thought this was interesting, because in another one of my classes, we were talking about how this still happens today… and I think that is disgusting. – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
I found this piece incredibly interesting, and though the subject matter was depressing, it was very beautifully written. It really made me think about the extreme poverty that was the norm during this era. Her descriptions of the single woman who isolates herself and virtually disappears made me wonder how many women died of starvation during this period. I also found her statements at the end fascinating: "It's not the suffering of birth, death, love that the young reject, but the suffering of ... being a slave without the security of a slave" (p 149). Times were bad enough that the author was willing to imply that being a slave would have been better than being a free woman during the great depression. - Sarah H.<br />
<br />
== Ann Marie Low's "The Dust Bowl" ==<br />
Ann Marie Low's "The Dust Bowl" was intriguing to read. Just how much dust piled up and how much they had to wash to keep their dishes, clothes, and house clean was unreal. I had always been told that there was 'a lot of dust,' but this article really put it in perspective. How did the people manage to live in it? I know that it said many babies and elderly died in it, but how did people live in it? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I really like the piece titled Dust Bowl.Finding out the things these people had to go through. The excessive cleaning that occurs before anything, all the hours put into cleaning are such wasted hours. I never really thought of it like this, all this time spent on the cleaning could have been used for finding a job or getting more food. The one thing that did give me a little relief was that Ann Marie Low, the girl writing this had time for leisure, she was able to go out to the movies, that even through this she was able to maintain some social life. Even though sometimes housekeeping did get in the way she was able to do things for her self. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
Ignoring the fact of the endless dust, life for this family seemed to be much better, as Amanda said the girl seemed to have time for leisure, and the ham, eggs, and bread seem like a feast compared to the rations of crackers described in the earlier readings of women in the cities. Was this true for the majority of rural families compared with those in the cities? Or is this a rare case? As an afterthought, I still havent decided if I would rather starve or live in all that dust, both sound unpleasant.----Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I agree with Ashley on how did people survive the dust. Many people suffered but it seems there were ways to survive. Examples are eating weeds for salads, dandelions, lamb's quarter,sheep sorrel, and other things as a food source. --Ashley Scutari<br />
<br />
== Margaret Jarman Hagood's "The Life Cycle of a White Southern Farm Woman" ==<br />
<br />
Margaret Jarman Hagood's "The Life Cycle of a White Southern Farm Woman" was so depressing! I was reading it and toward the end I had to stop and just stare at the book. I never realized that a baby that close to birth who was so active could just... die like that. 11 days before birth! I read it allowed to my husband and our friend who was visiting and they both stared at me and asked "Why are you reading something so depressing!?!?" Does those kinds of death still happen in America today? I mean, that close to birth? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
This article bothered me a bit. Like Ashley I was shocked about the death of her baby so close to its birth but Margaret Hagood seemed to be extremely petty to me. She was annoyed because one of her children wasn't as pretty as she hoped and she just seemed annoyed that she couldn't have all the material things that she wanted. I just found her annoying because she seemed to not be upset because of the hardship of the depression but because she was worried that her daughter and that she, herself, wouldn't be viewed as pretty.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
== Genora Johnson Dollinger, "Women and Labor Militancy" ==<br />
<br />
Dollinger's essay on "Women and Labor Militancy" was interesting. I I had no idea some women took it so far and seriously in these union groups. Sure we've learned how they take a militant approuch, but the lady in this reading was beyond that. What I thought was so interesting about her was how she used her gender against the cops in order to get where and what she wanted. She knew as a women that the cops would not shoot her in the back like they would a man, and therefore marching herself right in there on these strikes helping to defend these men, as well as using a type of reverse psychology on the cops to try and get them to see their fight. Pretty smart. On top of that she is like, oh by the way I had TB while I was doing all of this. She had some guts. She had a lot of women back her up on these strikes and even though the cops did not shoot them like they may have done to men I wonder if any got arrested at least?--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
Dollinger wrote about "Women and Labor Militancy" in the 1930's. Women formed the Emergency Brigade as their form of activism, which at the time was very appreciated by the men it was helping. However, as women's roles in these positions became less necessary and demands were being met, their roles became less necessary. People quickly reverted back to their previous expectations and as it states on page 170 men began saying, "Well, you women did a wonderful job, but now your duty is back there getting those kids in school, getting the wash done, and regular meals again…" Though the women were helpful for that time, does it really show progress for women and their increasingly public roles if it can disappear as quickly as it can emerge? I think it shows how easily the situation of women can change within certain societal conditions, how fragile progress can be, and how easily it is to revert back to the default. The challenge then becomes not how to be more active and make progress at a certain time or under certain circumstances, but how to use all of these collectively to change the default. –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I found it interesting to read the account of a woman raised in Flint Michigan and working with tue unions. Not only was I raised an hour or so south of Flint but both of my grandparents worked for the UAW during the depression. It's interesting to read what these women went through because its not something my grandparents talk about often. -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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== Carlotta Martin's "A Mexican-American Childhood during the Depression" ==<br />
<br />
In "A Mexican-American Childhood during the Depression" Carlotta Martin discusses what is like growing up in the barrio and how difficult life was during the Great Depression. She mentions that it was more common for children to be raised by their grandparents. Would this be in the sense that was it common for grandparents to live in the same households as their children and other extended family and for them to serve as we would see babysitters today? Or did the grandparents take their grandchildren, live separately, and give both parents a chance to work. Was this common within other ethnic groups or social classes as well? Or did it simply serve as an opportunity for the children to get an education as opposed to working to help their struggling families during the depression? –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
<br />
== Photo Essay ==<br />
Personally, I loved the Photo essay. I think that photographs are a really interesting way to show how things have changed from one era to the next and the pictures in this week's reading did just that. Seeing women in pants and with shorter hair on almost every girl was a neat thing to see because this had recently become a new fad. The photos are also a great way to visualize what we were talking about in class on Tuesday, including women working in men's jobs while they went off to war (like in the aviation plant photo) and joining and supporting unions (like in the auto workers' auxiliary photo). It kind of proves that all of this stuff really did happen which is beneficial when it seems kind of unreal that women wearing pants had been such a major controversy. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
== Dorothy Dunbar Bromley on Birth Control in the Depression ==<br />
It annoys me how it took an economic depression to make people realize how important birth control was. It would happen that way, people say how immoral it is until babies become an economic burden that they can't afford. I am glad, however, that they DID realize it was important though because the more children, the harsher the despression would've been. It is sad to see that the poorer people always were the ones having the most children, that is unfortunately the way it usually is.- Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
I agree with Emely Amaya's comment on the studies regarding the high number of births among poor people during the Great Depression. I was sort of wondering and hoping that studies such as those were the reason behind the repeal of prohibitions against the dissemination of information regarding birth control by AMA doctors. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Isnt it still true today that despite the wide availability and knowledge of birth control, the families that can not afford to have a child still are the ones who end up having the most children?--Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I have to ask the same question Landon does because wide availability and knowledge of birth control does not necessarily solve the problem. I'm not suggesting that the Depression did not increase hardships or awareness for birth control. I think that the problem is more complicated. Perhaps the reasons are embedded in culture, or it may have more to do with the subservient status of women to men. In many cases the man dictates the use of birth control. I've read articles that suggest that young women would rather risk pregnancy that lose a boyfriend. Birth control only works if both partners are willing to use it.--LisaM<br />
<br />
When it takes a depression for people to finally realize that having lots of children is not a good idea it really only effects those that had the money to have children in the first place. The ones that cant afford to are still going to have them. The ones that limited children due to the depression were typically middle class families. It is sad, that it continues to be the families that cant afford children that are having such large numbers. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
A very interesting read. I'm almost surprised the "moral crusaders" of the time didn't just encourage an "abstinence only" program. History certainly does mimic itself. Was it me, or was there a "blame the victim" thing going on in Bromley's article underneath everything? The Catholic Church is still pushing the "safe period", or "rythm method." My wife and I now call that program the "go forth and multiply" deal. Been there, done that, DON'T WORK! - Phil N.<br />
<br />
I think that the issue of birth control is still a very strong issue today. As others have pointed out the same groups of people are the ones that financially need it the most. But other than on college campuses I have never really heard of free contraception. Many forms of birth control, including most specifically designed for women to control the use of, are the most expensive and involve going to a doctor. Those who need birth control the most are usually not receiving adequate education and are often discouraged from any practice except abstinence. The statistics in this essay were very powerful and I think the increase in media availabilty made these statistics extremely effective. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
I found the community ethics that were apparent in this article interesting. Bromley emphasized the costs that community had to bear, but also emphasized that the community was taking care of 21,380 families already. At some points, Bromley sounds like a modern fiscal conservative, defending birth control as a method to reduce the size of the welfare state. At other points though it seems like Bromley is defending the role of an active community: this makes me curious about the author's view on the role of the government (or community) and her contemporary’s views. -- Matt Struth<br />
<br />
== Lydia Mendoza recalls her career in the Depression ==<br />
I loved the Lydia Mendoza recollection. Her modesty was overwhelming, but at the same time she was able to effectively describe how tough the depression was on families, and especially on minorities. Having to play in the plaza for two nights in a row just to make up the rent for the week had to have been difficult and you can really understand why her mother was hesitant about letting her travel to go on the radio show. If I were her mother I probably would have done the same thing -- her daughter was earning her quite a bit in the plaza so why change that, right? At the same time, I think it was wonderful that the manager found her a sponsor - it's kind of romanticized really and the way a great success story should start. I also liked how, by reading Lydia's piece, you could tell that women were still trying to establish themselves alongside men in the music world (and life in general.) "It was a very pretty sight and very special because we were women and very young..." Her discussion of the plaza being filled entirely with groups of men playing their instruments just emphasizes how all cultures dealt with a gender struggle. --Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
It makes be sad to read how greatly people struggled because of the Great Depression. I, like Kelly, enjoyed reading about Lydia Mendoza. I was moved by the since of "togetherness" her family had. Everyone in the family was involved in the musical group, all working together for survival. I suppose that tragedy and tough times bring people together. The move from Michigan to Texas took 3 months because they had to stop and perform for food and gas. Lydia Mendoza was modest and very sweet with her words. I found it interesting that Lydia's father gave up. He would not get up and to try to get work even when seeing Ignacio coming home with produce to eat. He was proving a point, but his family was starving.--Nikole Wellman<br />
<br />
My first thought after reading this piece was the that the family's togetherness was very limited. This particular family seemed to reverse the public/private distinction: the women (primarily, but also the young) went out and earned the rent while the father refused to work. I was also interested by the brief section on the impact of repealing the prohibition. Lydia's explanation of how it bolstered musicians makes me wonder how it impacted other groups. -- Matt Struth<br />
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== P’ing Yu, Racism among white CA Clubwomen, 1937 ==<br />
<br />
An interesting point with this reading. It dutiful for club women to work for rights of African American women but not with them. The Clubwomen still wanted to choose their friends and the members of the clubs.-Nikole Wellman<br />
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<br />
== Louise Mitchell, Denounces the “Slave Markets” where Domestics are Hired in NYC, 1940 ==<br />
<br />
It is so sad that so many young women had to stand on the street corners just to try to get work. I was surprised that domestic workers made up most of the country's job force, especially when it was a last resort job for women. Reading the piece about the domestic "slave markets" really showed how hard it was for women, especially African-American women, to get jobs. --Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
Not to diminish anyone's experience from the Great Depression, but trust me Kellye, everyone was dirt poor. The generation that just died off in my family spoke of the depression often. The women from this era used to embarrass me in public places by collecting all extra foodstuffs, fruits, etc. from open buffets and bars, or after famlily Holy Communion and birthday parties held in a public place. My Grandmother and Great Aunts COULDN'T STAND TO SEE ANYTHING WASTED. They remembered growing up with empty stomachs and no work for the parents and the children. - Phil N.</div>199.111.85.50https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_9_Questions/Comments328--Week 9 Questions/Comments2008-03-20T06:26:56Z<p>199.111.85.50: /* Dorothy Dunbar Bromley on Birth Control in the Depression */</p>
<hr />
<div>== "I Want You Women Up North to Know" by Tillie Olson ==<br />
<br />
In "I Want You Women Up North to Know" by Tillie Olson I found this line hilarious " ...she says that he prays and dreams of a another world...a heaven (which he does not know was brought to earth in 1917 in Russia, by workers like him)"...hind-sight is 20/20 right?- Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
I found this reading interesting but at the same time confusing. Tillie Olson is clearly attacking the women in the north who are buying the clothes that are being made, but its these women that are allowing the women she is writing about to have their jobs. Yes, their conditions are horrible and the pay is horrible, but thats not a reason to attack the other women I would think. I would also think that the depression, while it might have lessened in the Northern cities, was still affecting their lives, so her accusations seem to me to be unjustified.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
I found it interesting that Tillie Olson used a poem to express the conditions of the sweatships and garment workers. It is a very disturbing and graphic poem. A poem tends to be beautiful and lyrical but this really stands out because of how harsh it is in tone. It was really effective in creating the image of such a terrible life. -Kendall Haring<br />
<br />
Did the South have a harder time in the Great Depression because it was less industrialized? – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
== Annelise Orleck, "Militant Housewives of the Depression" ==<br />
<br />
I was amazed to learn how organized and militant housewives were during the Great Depression. Prior to reading this week's reading, I didn't know people were able to actually find constructive ways of regaining a semblance of their previous way of life during the Great Depression. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I LOVED this reading! I enjoyed seeing how women reacted to some of the hardships of the depression in a more aggressive way. I found it interesting that Orleck mentions that the women who were speaking out weren't doing so because they wanted the attention but because they wanted to be able to fulfill their duties as wives and mothers, which fits into the idea of what a woman was supposed to be doing, making their efforts more acceptable in society. I had no idea that they were able to accomplish so much or that the movement of housewives was so widespread across the U.S.! These I think are definitely ones who, if I was a mother during this period, I would want my children to respect and look up to because they were fighting for something they believed so strongly in (even though I'd prefer to be something more than a housewife). -Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
This really was a fun article to read. I was very impressed at how these women managed to keep their life somewhat the same during the depression. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
I too thought this article was very interesting and empowering. The different tactics these housewives used to ban together and create change brought many interesting images to mind. I really like how Moser points out that these movements were " 'an education for women'". However it is quite upsetting that it took these circumstances for this education to occur and for Americans to make the connection of the value between producing and consuming. I wonder did these movements outlast the images and ideals brought to mind by the 1950's? -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
== All Eleanor Roosevelt readings ==<br />
<br />
All of this week's readings about and created by Eleanor Roosevelt really confirmed history's seemingly high opinion of her. The fact that the Roosevelts' were able to constructively respond to all of their mail during the Great Depression is very admirable. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I thougth it was interesting that women actually took the time to write Eleanor Roosevelt about things that they desperately needed, like clothing and jobs for their husbands. Just thinking in today's world and if a depression happened now, I would think it pointless to write the first lady about what I desperately needed, just because I would think she for one probably would never even read the letter and two she probably wouldn't care much less help me. Yet so many women in the 1930's wrote her their depressing situations, I assume because they were just so desperate and no one else could help them so why couldn't the first lady. They probably thougtht too that Eleanor could influence her husband since he was the President to make him do something. Also article 5 and 6 in MP show that Eleanor did actually take recongnition of the problems during the depression and talked about the problems and spoke actively on many of the problems she saw.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
What I found interesting were the letters to the Roosevelt's and specifically Eleanor in both MAW and MPA. Like Michelle had said I wouldn't be writing to the first lady if there was a depression. Especially in today's society the letter would just get lost or thrown away. One of the letters did bother me a bit. I know it really shouldn't have but, the one about the little girl who wants roller blades.... to me its just so wrong. I know she is younger and doesn't understand what is going on, but it just really bugged me that she asked for roller blades when people are dieing of hunger, and are out of work and on the streets. Then there is this girl asking for roller blades because he friends are making fun of her. No matter what age you are things like that just bother me. Also wouldn't the parents maybe explain to their child that mommy and daddy are having a few problems financially? -- Amanda Taub<br />
'''(McClurken don't make fun of me to much in class, I like to be there when i am made fun of save a little for Tuesday).'''<br />
<br />
In response to Amanda's comment - each person, depending on their age, sex or race values different things - to a twelve year old girl, being ostricised in school because her family could not afford a pair of skates seemed just as traumatizing to her as the woman who could not afford clothes for her baby. I know the difference in the degree of severity between these two requests may seem laughable to some, it just goes to show that the Depression was a reality for all. One common theme that I did notice amongst the various letters is the sense of pride Americans still had, despite their desperate conditions. Here is a discussion question: Do you think Americans today still hold that same sense of pride and dignity? ~Juliann Boyles<br />
<br />
For me the most interesting letter to Eleanor Roosevelt was the second one. The woman thanked Roosevelt for her reply to the last letter, but then said she did not need charity just a loan, even sending in collateral she claimed was valuable. However, what bothers me here is not the fact that the first lady could not possibly begin to make individual loans to people, but the size of this woman's ego or pride. She claimed she gave up her rings which held the highest emotional value to her, this is not true. What holds the highest value in this woman's life is clearly her ability to save face, her pride. If she was truly desperate, and in such great need that she would ask a loan from a stranger, she should be willing to give up her greatest asset; that of her ego, and take the charity that the government has set up for her. I have noticed the same trend more subtly throughout the rest of the readings, what is causing this? Is it a few isolated cases or does this pride fit in with the overall atttidue of the day, or somehow into the middle class ideals we have talked so extensively about? --- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I think that pride can be considered a weakness. I could understand a child asking for something as trivial as skates, but the mother sending a shopping list to Eleanor Roosevelt was bothersome. During a time of extreme financial hardship this women focussed on the clothing of an infant. Then I thought that maybe this woman may not have been able to apply to the Welfare Association. In my interview with a senior woman, she mentioned how her mother during the depression found a way to feed the family and save money. She was suggesting aid from the government, which her husband refused. There was a prevailing attitude at the time that if you were working you were not poor, and therefore did not need the government's assistance. Is the act of asking for a baby's layette prompted by this mother's vanity. This woman had to have clothing from previous children, but she seemed intent on having a new set. Is the ability to dress a child, even during the worst of times, a measure of her ability to be a good mother?--LisaM <br />
<br />
I found the reading of "American Women ASk Eleanor for Help" Interesting as well as heartbreaking. It amazed me to read that within a day Eleanor would have 5 to 8 thousand letters and she made a huge effort to either answer them herself or pass it on to the correct agency. It surprised me the things the ladies asked for varying from roller skates to a job for a husband. How was Roosevelt able to answer all of these letters and was she able to satisfy the needs and wants of most? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
<br />
"Eleanor Roosevelt Urges Better Understanding and Cooperation of Both White and Negro Races," <br />
In this reading, she is basically saying that in order to be respected, African Americans need to raise their standards of living. She says that everyone needs to work together to stop injustices.--Nikole Wellman<br />
<br />
I could not believe that women would give up personal belongings to show Mrs. Roosevelt how much they needed help. One women sent Mrs. Roosevelt her rings in order to receive baby clothes. Did Mrs. Roosevelt actually reply back to some of these women's letters? --Ashley Scutari<br />
<br />
Did the Roosevelts ever follow up with the girls that wrote them and give them the things they requested in their letters? – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
I found the letters written to the Roosevelts rather intriguing. They showed a wide range of people with a variety of problems. I will say that the 12 year old girl is rather oblivious to the times. I know she's only 12, but really - at that age you should be picking up on what's going on around you. What interested me the most was the fact that the authors of these letters obviously thought that Elanor could personally help them. I know that the Roosevelts encouraged letter writing to themselves, but was there an perception throughout the country that the Roosevelts themselves could help out individuals? Did people stop to think that if they were writing the Roosevelts for help, that other people might be to, and that no matter how wealthy or kind or caring they were, that it would be impossible for them to personally help everyone? Was there a vastly different relationship between the President and First Lady and the populace during this era, or was it just desperate times? - Sarah<br />
<br />
== Meridel Lesueur, "Despair of Unemployed Women" ==<br />
<br />
Reading Meridel Lesueur's article really struck me. Just how starved the women were, and the endless sitting at the job bureau day after day. The description of some of their faces really made me feel a little sad. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I found this reading interesting because it showed that the middle class ideals, or what i guess could be described as middle class prejudice or maybe just denial in this case, still affected women even in this time of crisis. Where as before when the economy was good, women were not afforded the same opportunities as men (i.e. lower wages, lower glass ceilings, smaller scope of job opportunities), now in the depression women still arent afforded the same rights and opportunities as men (i.e. no flop houses, a cultural unwillingness to see women living in the parks, and charities only helping the deserving few). -- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
Just the fact that citizens had so much trust in the Roosevelt's, particularly Eleanor, and that they actually did care about the American people, is very refreshing to think about in these jaded times. Phil N.<br />
<br />
This piece really struck me - the despair, the utter hopelessness of these women's lives. But despite everything, many retained their pride, mending their stockings, hiding away in condemned apartments, refusing charity and public displays of poverty. When the author mentioned the one woman who finally broke, it made me think, most of these single women endured starvation and extreme poverty but continued to sit in that office daily waiting for a job that would never come - how strong they were. But somehow, many of these women made it through the Depression - somehow they survived, which really shows the strength of the human condition.~Juliann Boyles<br />
<br />
This piece was so incredible because I got a true sense of the despair of life during the Depression. The images were so vivid: living in condemned apartments, Mrs. Grey, sitting every day at the employment bureau. It emphasized how these women struggled to support their families in such a hopeless time. -Kendall Haring<br />
<br />
Meridel LeSueur highlights that it was very hard for unemployed women in the Depression, and in her discussion she remarks that pretty girls get better jobs. I thought this was interesting, because in another one of my classes, we were talking about how this still happens today… and I think that is disgusting. – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
I found this piece incredibly interesting, and though the subject matter was depressing, it was very beautifully written. It really made me think about the extreme poverty that was the norm during this era. Her descriptions of the single woman who isolates herself and virtually disappears made me wonder how many women died of starvation during this period. I also found her statements at the end fascinating: "It's not the suffering of birth, death, love that the young reject, but the suffering of ... being a slave without the security of a slave" (p 149). Times were bad enough that the author was willing to imply that being a slave would have been better than being a free woman during the great depression. - Sarah H.<br />
<br />
== Ann Marie Low's "The Dust Bowl" ==<br />
Ann Marie Low's "The Dust Bowl" was intriguing to read. Just how much dust piled up and how much they had to wash to keep their dishes, clothes, and house clean was unreal. I had always been told that there was 'a lot of dust,' but this article really put it in perspective. How did the people manage to live in it? I know that it said many babies and elderly died in it, but how did people live in it? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I really like the piece titled Dust Bowl.Finding out the things these people had to go through. The excessive cleaning that occurs before anything, all the hours put into cleaning are such wasted hours. I never really thought of it like this, all this time spent on the cleaning could have been used for finding a job or getting more food. The one thing that did give me a little relief was that Ann Marie Low, the girl writing this had time for leisure, she was able to go out to the movies, that even through this she was able to maintain some social life. Even though sometimes housekeeping did get in the way she was able to do things for her self. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
Ignoring the fact of the endless dust, life for this family seemed to be much better, as Amanda said the girl seemed to have time for leisure, and the ham, eggs, and bread seem like a feast compared to the rations of crackers described in the earlier readings of women in the cities. Was this true for the majority of rural families compared with those in the cities? Or is this a rare case? As an afterthought, I still havent decided if I would rather starve or live in all that dust, both sound unpleasant.----Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I agree with Ashley on how did people survive the dust. Many people suffered but it seems there were ways to survive. Examples are eating weeds for salads, dandelions, lamb's quarter,sheep sorrel, and other things as a food source. --Ashley Scutari<br />
<br />
== Margaret Jarman Hagood's "The Life Cycle of a White Southern Farm Woman" ==<br />
<br />
Margaret Jarman Hagood's "The Life Cycle of a White Southern Farm Woman" was so depressing! I was reading it and toward the end I had to stop and just stare at the book. I never realized that a baby that close to birth who was so active could just... die like that. 11 days before birth! I read it allowed to my husband and our friend who was visiting and they both stared at me and asked "Why are you reading something so depressing!?!?" Does those kinds of death still happen in America today? I mean, that close to birth? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
This article bothered me a bit. Like Ashley I was shocked about the death of her baby so close to its birth but Margaret Hagood seemed to be extremely petty to me. She was annoyed because one of her children wasn't as pretty as she hoped and she just seemed annoyed that she couldn't have all the material things that she wanted. I just found her annoying because she seemed to not be upset because of the hardship of the depression but because she was worried that her daughter and that she, herself, wouldn't be viewed as pretty.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
== Genora Johnson Dollinger, "Women and Labor Militancy" ==<br />
<br />
Dollinger's essay on "Women and Labor Militancy" was interesting. I I had no idea some women took it so far and seriously in these union groups. Sure we've learned how they take a militant approuch, but the lady in this reading was beyond that. What I thought was so interesting about her was how she used her gender against the cops in order to get where and what she wanted. She knew as a women that the cops would not shoot her in the back like they would a man, and therefore marching herself right in there on these strikes helping to defend these men, as well as using a type of reverse psychology on the cops to try and get them to see their fight. Pretty smart. On top of that she is like, oh by the way I had TB while I was doing all of this. She had some guts. She had a lot of women back her up on these strikes and even though the cops did not shoot them like they may have done to men I wonder if any got arrested at least?--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
Dollinger wrote about "Women and Labor Militancy" in the 1930's. Women formed the Emergency Brigade as their form of activism, which at the time was very appreciated by the men it was helping. However, as women's roles in these positions became less necessary and demands were being met, their roles became less necessary. People quickly reverted back to their previous expectations and as it states on page 170 men began saying, "Well, you women did a wonderful job, but now your duty is back there getting those kids in school, getting the wash done, and regular meals again…" Though the women were helpful for that time, does it really show progress for women and their increasingly public roles if it can disappear as quickly as it can emerge? I think it shows how easily the situation of women can change within certain societal conditions, how fragile progress can be, and how easily it is to revert back to the default. The challenge then becomes not how to be more active and make progress at a certain time or under certain circumstances, but how to use all of these collectively to change the default. –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I found it interesting to read the account of a woman raised in Flint Michigan and working with tue unions. Not only was I raised an hour or so south of Flint but both of my grandparents worked for the UAW during the depression. It's interesting to read what these women went through because its not something my grandparents talk about often. -- Rose Ferguson<br />
<br />
== Carlotta Martin's "A Mexican-American Childhood during the Depression" ==<br />
<br />
In "A Mexican-American Childhood during the Depression" Carlotta Martin discusses what is like growing up in the barrio and how difficult life was during the Great Depression. She mentions that it was more common for children to be raised by their grandparents. Would this be in the sense that was it common for grandparents to live in the same households as their children and other extended family and for them to serve as we would see babysitters today? Or did the grandparents take their grandchildren, live separately, and give both parents a chance to work. Was this common within other ethnic groups or social classes as well? Or did it simply serve as an opportunity for the children to get an education as opposed to working to help their struggling families during the depression? –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
<br />
== Photo Essay ==<br />
Personally, I loved the Photo essay. I think that photographs are a really interesting way to show how things have changed from one era to the next and the pictures in this week's reading did just that. Seeing women in pants and with shorter hair on almost every girl was a neat thing to see because this had recently become a new fad. The photos are also a great way to visualize what we were talking about in class on Tuesday, including women working in men's jobs while they went off to war (like in the aviation plant photo) and joining and supporting unions (like in the auto workers' auxiliary photo). It kind of proves that all of this stuff really did happen which is beneficial when it seems kind of unreal that women wearing pants had been such a major controversy. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
== Dorothy Dunbar Bromley on Birth Control in the Depression ==<br />
It annoys me how it took an economic depression to make people realize how important birth control was. It would happen that way, people say how immoral it is until babies become an economic burden that they can't afford. I am glad, however, that they DID realize it was important though because the more children, the harsher the despression would've been. It is sad to see that the poorer people always were the ones having the most children, that is unfortunately the way it usually is.- Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
I agree with Emely Amaya's comment on the studies regarding the high number of births among poor people during the Great Depression. I was sort of wondering and hoping that studies such as those were the reason behind the repeal of prohibitions against the dissemination of information regarding birth control by AMA doctors. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Isnt it still true today that despite the wide availability and knowledge of birth control, the families that can not afford to have a child still are the ones who end up having the most children?--Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I have to ask the same question Landon does because wide availability and knowledge of birth control does not necessarily solve the problem. I'm not suggesting that the Depression did not increase hardships or awareness for birth control. I think that the problem is more complicated. Perhaps the reasons are embedded in culture, or it may have more to do with the subservient status of women to men. In many cases the man dictates the use of birth control. I've read articles that suggest that young women would rather risk pregnancy that lose a boyfriend. Birth control only works if both partners are willing to use it.--LisaM<br />
<br />
When it takes a depression for people to finally realize that having lots of children is not a good idea it really only effects those that had the money to have children in the first place. The ones that cant afford to are still going to have them. The ones that limited children due to the depression were typically middle class families. It is sad, that it continues to be the families that cant afford children that are having such large numbers. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
A very interesting read. I'm almost surprised the "moral crusaders" of the time didn't just encourage an "abstinence only" program. History certainly does mimic itself. Was it me, or was there a "blame the victim" thing going on in Bromley's article underneath everything? The Catholic Church is still pushing the "safe period", or "rythm method." My wife and I now call that program the "go forth and multiply" deal. Been there, done that, DON'T WORK! - Phil N.<br />
<br />
I think that the issue of birth control is still a very strong issue today. As others have pointed out the same groups of people are the ones that financially need it the most. But other than on college campuses I have never really heard of free contraception. Many forms of birth control, including most specifically designed for women to control the use of, are the most expensive and involve going to a doctor. Those who need birth control the most are usually not receiving adequate education and are often discouraged from any practice except abstinence. The statistics in this essay were very powerful and I think the increase in media availabilty made these statistics extremely effective. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
I found the community ethics that were apparent in this article interesting. Bromley emphasized the costs that community had to bear, but also emphasized that the community was taking care of 21,380 families already. At some points, Bromley sounds like a modern fiscal conservative, defending birth control as a method to reduce the size of the welfare state. At other points though it seems like Bromley is defending the role of an active community: this makes me curious about the author's view on the role of the government (or community) and her contemporary’s views. -- Matt Struth<br />
<br />
== Lydia Mendoza recalls her career in the Depression ==<br />
I loved the Lydia Mendoza recollection. Her modesty was overwhelming, but at the same time she was able to effectively describe how tough the depression was on families, and especially on minorities. Having to play in the plaza for two nights in a row just to make up the rent for the week had to have been difficult and you can really understand why her mother was hesitant about letting her travel to go on the radio show. If I were her mother I probably would have done the same thing -- her daughter was earning her quite a bit in the plaza so why change that, right? At the same time, I think it was wonderful that the manager found her a sponsor - it's kind of romanticized really and the way a great success story should start. I also liked how, by reading Lydia's piece, you could tell that women were still trying to establish themselves alongside men in the music world (and life in general.) "It was a very pretty sight and very special because we were women and very young..." Her discussion of the plaza being filled entirely with groups of men playing their instruments just emphasizes how all cultures dealt with a gender struggle. --Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
It makes be sad to read how greatly people struggled because of the Great Depression. I, like Kelly, enjoyed reading about Lydia Mendoza. I was moved by the since of "togetherness" her family had. Everyone in the family was involved in the musical group, all working together for survival. I suppose that tragedy and tough times bring people together. The move from Michigan to Texas took 3 months because they had to stop and perform for food and gas. Lydia Mendoza was modest and very sweet with her words. I found it interesting that Lydia's father gave up. He would not get up and to try to get work even when seeing Ignacio coming home with produce to eat. He was proving a point, but his family was starving.--Nikole Wellman<br />
<br />
== P’ing Yu, Racism among white CA Clubwomen, 1937 ==<br />
<br />
An interesting point with this reading. It dutiful for club women to work for rights of African American women but not with them. The Clubwomen still wanted to choose their friends and the members of the clubs.-Nikole Wellman<br />
<br />
<br />
== Louise Mitchell, Denounces the “Slave Markets” where Domestics are Hired in NYC, 1940 ==<br />
<br />
It is so sad that so many young women had to stand on the street corners just to try to get work. I was surprised that domestic workers made up most of the country's job force, especially when it was a last resort job for women. Reading the piece about the domestic "slave markets" really showed how hard it was for women, especially African-American women, to get jobs. --Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
Not to diminish anyone's experience from the Great Depression, but trust me Kellye, everyone was dirt poor. The generation that just died off in my family spoke of the depression often. The women from this era used to embarrass me in public places by collecting all extra foodstuffs, fruits, etc. from open buffets and bars, or after famlily Holy Communion and birthday parties held in a public place. My Grandmother and Great Aunts COULDN'T STAND TO SEE ANYTHING WASTED. They remembered growing up with empty stomachs and no work for the parents and the children. - Phil N.</div>199.111.85.50https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_9_Questions/Comments328--Week 9 Questions/Comments2008-03-20T04:28:59Z<p>199.111.85.50: /* Ann Marie Low's "The Dust Bowl" */</p>
<hr />
<div>== "I Want You Women Up North to Know" by Tillie Olson ==<br />
<br />
In "I Want You Women Up North to Know" by Tillie Olson I found this line hilarious " ...she says that he prays and dreams of a another world...a heaven (which he does not know was brought to earth in 1917 in Russia, by workers like him)"...hind-sight is 20/20 right?- Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
I found this reading interesting but at the same time confusing. Tillie Olson is clearly attacking the women in the north who are buying the clothes that are being made, but its these women that are allowing the women she is writing about to have their jobs. Yes, their conditions are horrible and the pay is horrible, but thats not a reason to attack the other women I would think. I would also think that the depression, while it might have lessened in the Northern cities, was still affecting their lives, so her accusations seem to me to be unjustified.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
I found it interesting that Tillie Olson used a poem to express the conditions of the sweatships and garment workers. It is a very disturbing and graphic poem. A poem tends to be beautiful and lyrical but this really stands out because of how harsh it is in tone. It was really effective in creating the image of such a terrible life. -Kendall Haring<br />
<br />
Did the South have a harder time in the Great Depression because it was less industrialized? – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
== Annelise Orleck, "Militant Housewives of the Depression" ==<br />
<br />
I was amazed to learn how organized and militant housewives were during the Great Depression. Prior to reading this week's reading, I didn't know people were able to actually find constructive ways of regaining a semblance of their previous way of life during the Great Depression. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I LOVED this reading! I enjoyed seeing how women reacted to some of the hardships of the depression in a more aggressive way. I found it interesting that Orleck mentions that the women who were speaking out weren't doing so because they wanted the attention but because they wanted to be able to fulfill their duties as wives and mothers, which fits into the idea of what a woman was supposed to be doing, making their efforts more acceptable in society. I had no idea that they were able to accomplish so much or that the movement of housewives was so widespread across the U.S.! These I think are definitely ones who, if I was a mother during this period, I would want my children to respect and look up to because they were fighting for something they believed so strongly in (even though I'd prefer to be something more than a housewife). -Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
This really was a fun article to read. I was very impressed at how these women managed to keep their life somewhat the same during the depression. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
I too thought this article was very interesting and empowering. The different tactics these housewives used to ban together and create change brought many interesting images to mind. I really like how Moser points out that these movements were " 'an education for women'". However it is quite upsetting that it took these circumstances for this education to occur and for Americans to make the connection of the value between producing and consuming. I wonder did these movements outlast the images and ideals brought to mind by the 1950's? -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
== All Eleanor Roosevelt readings ==<br />
<br />
All of this week's readings about and created by Eleanor Roosevelt really confirmed history's seemingly high opinion of her. The fact that the Roosevelts' were able to constructively respond to all of their mail during the Great Depression is very admirable. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I thougth it was interesting that women actually took the time to write Eleanor Roosevelt about things that they desperately needed, like clothing and jobs for their husbands. Just thinking in today's world and if a depression happened now, I would think it pointless to write the first lady about what I desperately needed, just because I would think she for one probably would never even read the letter and two she probably wouldn't care much less help me. Yet so many women in the 1930's wrote her their depressing situations, I assume because they were just so desperate and no one else could help them so why couldn't the first lady. They probably thougtht too that Eleanor could influence her husband since he was the President to make him do something. Also article 5 and 6 in MP show that Eleanor did actually take recongnition of the problems during the depression and talked about the problems and spoke actively on many of the problems she saw.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
What I found interesting were the letters to the Roosevelt's and specifically Eleanor in both MAW and MPA. Like Michelle had said I wouldn't be writing to the first lady if there was a depression. Especially in today's society the letter would just get lost or thrown away. One of the letters did bother me a bit. I know it really shouldn't have but, the one about the little girl who wants roller blades.... to me its just so wrong. I know she is younger and doesn't understand what is going on, but it just really bugged me that she asked for roller blades when people are dieing of hunger, and are out of work and on the streets. Then there is this girl asking for roller blades because he friends are making fun of her. No matter what age you are things like that just bother me. Also wouldn't the parents maybe explain to their child that mommy and daddy are having a few problems financially? -- Amanda Taub<br />
'''(McClurken don't make fun of me to much in class, I like to be there when i am made fun of save a little for Tuesday).'''<br />
<br />
In response to Amanda's comment - each person, depending on their age, sex or race values different things - to a twelve year old girl, being ostricised in school because her family could not afford a pair of skates seemed just as traumatizing to her as the woman who could not afford clothes for her baby. I know the difference in the degree of severity between these two requests may seem laughable to some, it just goes to show that the Depression was a reality for all. One common theme that I did notice amongst the various letters is the sense of pride Americans still had, despite their desperate conditions. Here is a discussion question: Do you think Americans today still hold that same sense of pride and dignity? ~Juliann Boyles<br />
<br />
For me the most interesting letter to Eleanor Roosevelt was the second one. The woman thanked Roosevelt for her reply to the last letter, but then said she did not need charity just a loan, even sending in collateral she claimed was valuable. However, what bothers me here is not the fact that the first lady could not possibly begin to make individual loans to people, but the size of this woman's ego or pride. She claimed she gave up her rings which held the highest emotional value to her, this is not true. What holds the highest value in this woman's life is clearly her ability to save face, her pride. If she was truly desperate, and in such great need that she would ask a loan from a stranger, she should be willing to give up her greatest asset; that of her ego, and take the charity that the government has set up for her. I have noticed the same trend more subtly throughout the rest of the readings, what is causing this? Is it a few isolated cases or does this pride fit in with the overall atttidue of the day, or somehow into the middle class ideals we have talked so extensively about? --- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I think that pride can be considered a weakness. I could understand a child asking for something as trivial as skates, but the mother sending a shopping list to Eleanor Roosevelt was bothersome. During a time of extreme financial hardship this women focussed on the clothing of an infant. Then I thought that maybe this woman may not have been able to apply to the Welfare Association. In my interview with a senior woman, she mentioned how her mother during the depression found a way to feed the family and save money. She was suggesting aid from the government, which her husband refused. There was a prevailing attitude at the time that if you were working you were not poor, and therefore did not need the government's assistance. Is the act of asking for a baby's layette prompted by this mother's vanity. This woman had to have clothing from previous children, but she seemed intent on having a new set. Is the ability to dress a child, even during the worst of times, a measure of her ability to be a good mother?--LisaM <br />
<br />
I found the reading of "American Women ASk Eleanor for Help" Interesting as well as heartbreaking. It amazed me to read that within a day Eleanor would have 5 to 8 thousand letters and she made a huge effort to either answer them herself or pass it on to the correct agency. It surprised me the things the ladies asked for varying from roller skates to a job for a husband. How was Roosevelt able to answer all of these letters and was she able to satisfy the needs and wants of most? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
<br />
"Eleanor Roosevelt Urges Better Understanding and Cooperation of Both White and Negro Races," <br />
In this reading, she is basically saying that in order to be respected, African Americans need to raise their standards of living. She says that everyone needs to work together to stop injustices.--Nikole Wellman<br />
<br />
I could not believe that women would give up personal belongings to show Mrs. Roosevelt how much they needed help. One women sent Mrs. Roosevelt her rings in order to receive baby clothes. Did Mrs. Roosevelt actually reply back to some of these women's letters? --Ashley Scutari<br />
<br />
Did the Roosevelts ever follow up with the girls that wrote them and give them the things they requested in their letters? – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
== Meridel Lesueur, "Despair of Unemployed Women" ==<br />
<br />
Reading Meridel Lesueur's article really struck me. Just how starved the women were, and the endless sitting at the job bureau day after day. The description of some of their faces really made me feel a little sad. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I found this reading interesting because it showed that the middle class ideals, or what i guess could be described as middle class prejudice or maybe just denial in this case, still affected women even in this time of crisis. Where as before when the economy was good, women were not afforded the same opportunities as men (i.e. lower wages, lower glass ceilings, smaller scope of job opportunities), now in the depression women still arent afforded the same rights and opportunities as men (i.e. no flop houses, a cultural unwillingness to see women living in the parks, and charities only helping the deserving few). -- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
Just the fact that citizens had so much trust in the Roosevelt's, particularly Eleanor, and that they actually did care about the American people, is very refreshing to think about in these jaded times. Phil N.<br />
<br />
This piece really struck me - the despair, the utter hopelessness of these women's lives. But despite everything, many retained their pride, mending their stockings, hiding away in condemned apartments, refusing charity and public displays of poverty. When the author mentioned the one woman who finally broke, it made me think, most of these single women endured starvation and extreme poverty but continued to sit in that office daily waiting for a job that would never come - how strong they were. But somehow, many of these women made it through the Depression - somehow they survived, which really shows the strength of the human condition.~Juliann Boyles<br />
<br />
This piece was so incredible because I got a true sense of the despair of life during the Depression. The images were so vivid: living in condemned apartments, Mrs. Grey, sitting every day at the employment bureau. It emphasized how these women struggled to support their families in such a hopeless time. -Kendall Haring<br />
<br />
Meridel LeSueur highlights that it was very hard for unemployed women in the Depression, and in her discussion she remarks that pretty girls get better jobs. I thought this was interesting, because in another one of my classes, we were talking about how this still happens today… and I think that is disgusting. – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
== Ann Marie Low's "The Dust Bowl" ==<br />
Ann Marie Low's "The Dust Bowl" was intriguing to read. Just how much dust piled up and how much they had to wash to keep their dishes, clothes, and house clean was unreal. I had always been told that there was 'a lot of dust,' but this article really put it in perspective. How did the people manage to live in it? I know that it said many babies and elderly died in it, but how did people live in it? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I really like the piece titled Dust Bowl.Finding out the things these people had to go through. The excessive cleaning that occurs before anything, all the hours put into cleaning are such wasted hours. I never really thought of it like this, all this time spent on the cleaning could have been used for finding a job or getting more food. The one thing that did give me a little relief was that Ann Marie Low, the girl writing this had time for leisure, she was able to go out to the movies, that even through this she was able to maintain some social life. Even though sometimes housekeeping did get in the way she was able to do things for her self. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
Ignoring the fact of the endless dust, life for this family seemed to be much better, as Amanda said the girl seemed to have time for leisure, and the ham, eggs, and bread seem like a feast compared to the rations of crackers described in the earlier readings of women in the cities. Was this true for the majority of rural families compared with those in the cities? Or is this a rare case? As an afterthought, I still havent decided if I would rather starve or live in all that dust, both sound unpleasant.----Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I agree with Ashley on how did people survive the dust. Many people suffered but it seems there were ways to survive. Examples are eating weeds for salads, dandelions, lamb's quarter,sheep sorrel, and other things as a food source. --Ashley Scutari<br />
<br />
== Margaret Jarman Hagood's "The Life Cycle of a White Southern Farm Woman" ==<br />
<br />
Margaret Jarman Hagood's "The Life Cycle of a White Southern Farm Woman" was so depressing! I was reading it and toward the end I had to stop and just stare at the book. I never realized that a baby that close to birth who was so active could just... die like that. 11 days before birth! I read it allowed to my husband and our friend who was visiting and they both stared at me and asked "Why are you reading something so depressing!?!?" Does those kinds of death still happen in America today? I mean, that close to birth? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
This article bothered me a bit. Like Ashley I was shocked about the death of her baby so close to its birth but Margaret Hagood seemed to be extremely petty to me. She was annoyed because one of her children wasn't as pretty as she hoped and she just seemed annoyed that she couldn't have all the material things that she wanted. I just found her annoying because she seemed to not be upset because of the hardship of the depression but because she was worried that her daughter and that she, herself, wouldn't be viewed as pretty.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
== Genora Johnson Dollinger, "Women and Labor Militancy" ==<br />
<br />
Dollinger's essay on "Women and Labor Militancy" was interesting. I I had no idea some women took it so far and seriously in these union groups. Sure we've learned how they take a militant approuch, but the lady in this reading was beyond that. What I thought was so interesting about her was how she used her gender against the cops in order to get where and what she wanted. She knew as a women that the cops would not shoot her in the back like they would a man, and therefore marching herself right in there on these strikes helping to defend these men, as well as using a type of reverse psychology on the cops to try and get them to see their fight. Pretty smart. On top of that she is like, oh by the way I had TB while I was doing all of this. She had some guts. She had a lot of women back her up on these strikes and even though the cops did not shoot them like they may have done to men I wonder if any got arrested at least?--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
Dollinger wrote about "Women and Labor Militancy" in the 1930's. Women formed the Emergency Brigade as their form of activism, which at the time was very appreciated by the men it was helping. However, as women's roles in these positions became less necessary and demands were being met, their roles became less necessary. People quickly reverted back to their previous expectations and as it states on page 170 men began saying, "Well, you women did a wonderful job, but now your duty is back there getting those kids in school, getting the wash done, and regular meals again…" Though the women were helpful for that time, does it really show progress for women and their increasingly public roles if it can disappear as quickly as it can emerge? I think it shows how easily the situation of women can change within certain societal conditions, how fragile progress can be, and how easily it is to revert back to the default. The challenge then becomes not how to be more active and make progress at a certain time or under certain circumstances, but how to use all of these collectively to change the default. –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I found it interesting to read the account of a woman raised in Flint Michigan and working with tue unions. Not only was I raised an hour or so south of Flint but both of my grandparents worked for the UAW during the depression. It's interesting to read what these women went through because its not something my grandparents talk about often. -- Rose Ferguson<br />
<br />
== Carlotta Martin's "A Mexican-American Childhood during the Depression" ==<br />
<br />
In "A Mexican-American Childhood during the Depression" Carlotta Martin discusses what is like growing up in the barrio and how difficult life was during the Great Depression. She mentions that it was more common for children to be raised by their grandparents. Would this be in the sense that was it common for grandparents to live in the same households as their children and other extended family and for them to serve as we would see babysitters today? Or did the grandparents take their grandchildren, live separately, and give both parents a chance to work. Was this common within other ethnic groups or social classes as well? Or did it simply serve as an opportunity for the children to get an education as opposed to working to help their struggling families during the depression? –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
<br />
== Photo Essay ==<br />
Personally, I loved the Photo essay. I think that photographs are a really interesting way to show how things have changed from one era to the next and the pictures in this week's reading did just that. Seeing women in pants and with shorter hair on almost every girl was a neat thing to see because this had recently become a new fad. The photos are also a great way to visualize what we were talking about in class on Tuesday, including women working in men's jobs while they went off to war (like in the aviation plant photo) and joining and supporting unions (like in the auto workers' auxiliary photo). It kind of proves that all of this stuff really did happen which is beneficial when it seems kind of unreal that women wearing pants had been such a major controversy. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
== Dorothy Dunbar Bromley on Birth Control in the Depression ==<br />
It annoys me how it took an economic depression to make people realize how important birth control was. It would happen that way, people say how immoral it is until babies become an economic burden that they can't afford. I am glad, however, that they DID realize it was important though because the more children, the harsher the despression would've been. It is sad to see that the poorer people always were the ones having the most children, that is unfortunately the way it usually is.- Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
I agree with Emely Amaya's comment on the studies regarding the high number of births among poor people during the Great Depression. I was sort of wondering and hoping that studies such as those were the reason behind the repeal of prohibitions against the dissemination of information regarding birth control by AMA doctors. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Isnt it still true today that despite the wide availability and knowledge of birth control, the families that can not afford to have a child still are the ones who end up having the most children?--Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I have to ask the same question Landon does because wide availability and knowledge of birth control does not necessarily solve the problem. I'm not suggesting that the Depression did not increase hardships or awareness for birth control. I think that the problem is more complicated. Perhaps the reasons are embedded in culture, or it may have more to do with the subservient status of women to men. In many cases the man dictates the use of birth control. I've read articles that suggest that young women would rather risk pregnancy that lose a boyfriend. Birth control only works if both partners are willing to use it.--LisaM<br />
<br />
When it takes a depression for people to finally realize that having lots of children is not a good idea it really only effects those that had the money to have children in the first place. The ones that cant afford to are still going to have them. The ones that limited children due to the depression were typically middle class families. It is sad, that it continues to be the families that cant afford children that are having such large numbers. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
A very interesting read. I'm almost surprised the "moral crusaders" of the time didn't just encourage an "abstinence only" program. History certainly does mimic itself. Was it me, or was there a "blame the victim" thing going on in Bromley's article underneath everything? The Catholic Church is still pushing the "safe period", or "rythm method." My wife and I now call that program the "go forth and multiply" deal. Been there, done that, DON'T WORK! - Phil N.<br />
<br />
I think that the issue of birth control is still a very strong issue today. As others have pointed out the same groups of people are the ones that financially need it the most. But other than on college campuses I have never really heard of free contraception. Many forms of birth control, including most specifically designed for women to control the use of, are the most expensive and involve going to a doctor. Those who need birth control the most are usually not receiving adequate education and are often discouraged from any practice except abstinence. The statistics in this essay were very powerful and I think the increase in media availabilty made these statistics extremely effective. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
== Lydia Mendoza recalls her career in the Depression ==<br />
I loved the Lydia Mendoza recollection. Her modesty was overwhelming, but at the same time she was able to effectively describe how tough the depression was on families, and especially on minorities. Having to play in the plaza for two nights in a row just to make up the rent for the week had to have been difficult and you can really understand why her mother was hesitant about letting her travel to go on the radio show. If I were her mother I probably would have done the same thing -- her daughter was earning her quite a bit in the plaza so why change that, right? At the same time, I think it was wonderful that the manager found her a sponsor - it's kind of romanticized really and the way a great success story should start. I also liked how, by reading Lydia's piece, you could tell that women were still trying to establish themselves alongside men in the music world (and life in general.) "It was a very pretty sight and very special because we were women and very young..." Her discussion of the plaza being filled entirely with groups of men playing their instruments just emphasizes how all cultures dealt with a gender struggle. --Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
It makes be sad to read how greatly people struggled because of the Great Depression. I, like Kelly, enjoyed reading about Lydia Mendoza. I was moved by the since of "togetherness" her family had. Everyone in the family was involved in the musical group, all working together for survival. I suppose that tragedy and tough times bring people together. The move from Michigan to Texas took 3 months because they had to stop and perform for food and gas. Lydia Mendoza was modest and very sweet with her words. I found it interesting that Lydia's father gave up. He would not get up and to try to get work even when seeing Ignacio coming home with produce to eat. He was proving a point, but his family was starving.--Nikole Wellman<br />
<br />
== P’ing Yu, Racism among white CA Clubwomen, 1937 ==<br />
<br />
An interesting point with this reading. It dutiful for club women to work for rights of African American women but not with them. The Clubwomen still wanted to choose their friends and the members of the clubs.-Nikole Wellman<br />
<br />
<br />
== Louise Mitchell, Denounces the “Slave Markets” where Domestics are Hired in NYC, 1940 ==<br />
<br />
It is so sad that so many young women had to stand on the street corners just to try to get work. I was surprised that domestic workers made up most of the country's job force, especially when it was a last resort job for women. Reading the piece about the domestic "slave markets" really showed how hard it was for women, especially African-American women, to get jobs. --Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
Not to diminish anyone's experience from the Great Depression, but trust me Kellye, everyone was dirt poor. The generation that just died off in my family spoke of the depression often. The women from this era used to embarrass me in public places by collecting all extra foodstuffs, fruits, etc. from open buffets and bars, or after famlily Holy Communion and birthday parties held in a public place. My Grandmother and Great Aunts COULDN'T STAND TO SEE ANYTHING WASTED. They remembered growing up with empty stomachs and no work for the parents and the children. - Phil N.</div>199.111.85.50https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_9_Questions/Comments328--Week 9 Questions/Comments2008-03-20T04:28:07Z<p>199.111.85.50: /* Ann Marie Low's "The Dust Bowl" */</p>
<hr />
<div>== "I Want You Women Up North to Know" by Tillie Olson ==<br />
<br />
In "I Want You Women Up North to Know" by Tillie Olson I found this line hilarious " ...she says that he prays and dreams of a another world...a heaven (which he does not know was brought to earth in 1917 in Russia, by workers like him)"...hind-sight is 20/20 right?- Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
I found this reading interesting but at the same time confusing. Tillie Olson is clearly attacking the women in the north who are buying the clothes that are being made, but its these women that are allowing the women she is writing about to have their jobs. Yes, their conditions are horrible and the pay is horrible, but thats not a reason to attack the other women I would think. I would also think that the depression, while it might have lessened in the Northern cities, was still affecting their lives, so her accusations seem to me to be unjustified.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
I found it interesting that Tillie Olson used a poem to express the conditions of the sweatships and garment workers. It is a very disturbing and graphic poem. A poem tends to be beautiful and lyrical but this really stands out because of how harsh it is in tone. It was really effective in creating the image of such a terrible life. -Kendall Haring<br />
<br />
Did the South have a harder time in the Great Depression because it was less industrialized? – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
== Annelise Orleck, "Militant Housewives of the Depression" ==<br />
<br />
I was amazed to learn how organized and militant housewives were during the Great Depression. Prior to reading this week's reading, I didn't know people were able to actually find constructive ways of regaining a semblance of their previous way of life during the Great Depression. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I LOVED this reading! I enjoyed seeing how women reacted to some of the hardships of the depression in a more aggressive way. I found it interesting that Orleck mentions that the women who were speaking out weren't doing so because they wanted the attention but because they wanted to be able to fulfill their duties as wives and mothers, which fits into the idea of what a woman was supposed to be doing, making their efforts more acceptable in society. I had no idea that they were able to accomplish so much or that the movement of housewives was so widespread across the U.S.! These I think are definitely ones who, if I was a mother during this period, I would want my children to respect and look up to because they were fighting for something they believed so strongly in (even though I'd prefer to be something more than a housewife). -Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
This really was a fun article to read. I was very impressed at how these women managed to keep their life somewhat the same during the depression. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
I too thought this article was very interesting and empowering. The different tactics these housewives used to ban together and create change brought many interesting images to mind. I really like how Moser points out that these movements were " 'an education for women'". However it is quite upsetting that it took these circumstances for this education to occur and for Americans to make the connection of the value between producing and consuming. I wonder did these movements outlast the images and ideals brought to mind by the 1950's? -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
== All Eleanor Roosevelt readings ==<br />
<br />
All of this week's readings about and created by Eleanor Roosevelt really confirmed history's seemingly high opinion of her. The fact that the Roosevelts' were able to constructively respond to all of their mail during the Great Depression is very admirable. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I thougth it was interesting that women actually took the time to write Eleanor Roosevelt about things that they desperately needed, like clothing and jobs for their husbands. Just thinking in today's world and if a depression happened now, I would think it pointless to write the first lady about what I desperately needed, just because I would think she for one probably would never even read the letter and two she probably wouldn't care much less help me. Yet so many women in the 1930's wrote her their depressing situations, I assume because they were just so desperate and no one else could help them so why couldn't the first lady. They probably thougtht too that Eleanor could influence her husband since he was the President to make him do something. Also article 5 and 6 in MP show that Eleanor did actually take recongnition of the problems during the depression and talked about the problems and spoke actively on many of the problems she saw.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
What I found interesting were the letters to the Roosevelt's and specifically Eleanor in both MAW and MPA. Like Michelle had said I wouldn't be writing to the first lady if there was a depression. Especially in today's society the letter would just get lost or thrown away. One of the letters did bother me a bit. I know it really shouldn't have but, the one about the little girl who wants roller blades.... to me its just so wrong. I know she is younger and doesn't understand what is going on, but it just really bugged me that she asked for roller blades when people are dieing of hunger, and are out of work and on the streets. Then there is this girl asking for roller blades because he friends are making fun of her. No matter what age you are things like that just bother me. Also wouldn't the parents maybe explain to their child that mommy and daddy are having a few problems financially? -- Amanda Taub<br />
'''(McClurken don't make fun of me to much in class, I like to be there when i am made fun of save a little for Tuesday).'''<br />
<br />
In response to Amanda's comment - each person, depending on their age, sex or race values different things - to a twelve year old girl, being ostricised in school because her family could not afford a pair of skates seemed just as traumatizing to her as the woman who could not afford clothes for her baby. I know the difference in the degree of severity between these two requests may seem laughable to some, it just goes to show that the Depression was a reality for all. One common theme that I did notice amongst the various letters is the sense of pride Americans still had, despite their desperate conditions. Here is a discussion question: Do you think Americans today still hold that same sense of pride and dignity? ~Juliann Boyles<br />
<br />
For me the most interesting letter to Eleanor Roosevelt was the second one. The woman thanked Roosevelt for her reply to the last letter, but then said she did not need charity just a loan, even sending in collateral she claimed was valuable. However, what bothers me here is not the fact that the first lady could not possibly begin to make individual loans to people, but the size of this woman's ego or pride. She claimed she gave up her rings which held the highest emotional value to her, this is not true. What holds the highest value in this woman's life is clearly her ability to save face, her pride. If she was truly desperate, and in such great need that she would ask a loan from a stranger, she should be willing to give up her greatest asset; that of her ego, and take the charity that the government has set up for her. I have noticed the same trend more subtly throughout the rest of the readings, what is causing this? Is it a few isolated cases or does this pride fit in with the overall atttidue of the day, or somehow into the middle class ideals we have talked so extensively about? --- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I think that pride can be considered a weakness. I could understand a child asking for something as trivial as skates, but the mother sending a shopping list to Eleanor Roosevelt was bothersome. During a time of extreme financial hardship this women focussed on the clothing of an infant. Then I thought that maybe this woman may not have been able to apply to the Welfare Association. In my interview with a senior woman, she mentioned how her mother during the depression found a way to feed the family and save money. She was suggesting aid from the government, which her husband refused. There was a prevailing attitude at the time that if you were working you were not poor, and therefore did not need the government's assistance. Is the act of asking for a baby's layette prompted by this mother's vanity. This woman had to have clothing from previous children, but she seemed intent on having a new set. Is the ability to dress a child, even during the worst of times, a measure of her ability to be a good mother?--LisaM <br />
<br />
I found the reading of "American Women ASk Eleanor for Help" Interesting as well as heartbreaking. It amazed me to read that within a day Eleanor would have 5 to 8 thousand letters and she made a huge effort to either answer them herself or pass it on to the correct agency. It surprised me the things the ladies asked for varying from roller skates to a job for a husband. How was Roosevelt able to answer all of these letters and was she able to satisfy the needs and wants of most? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
<br />
"Eleanor Roosevelt Urges Better Understanding and Cooperation of Both White and Negro Races," <br />
In this reading, she is basically saying that in order to be respected, African Americans need to raise their standards of living. She says that everyone needs to work together to stop injustices.--Nikole Wellman<br />
<br />
I could not believe that women would give up personal belongings to show Mrs. Roosevelt how much they needed help. One women sent Mrs. Roosevelt her rings in order to receive baby clothes. Did Mrs. Roosevelt actually reply back to some of these women's letters? --Ashley Scutari<br />
<br />
Did the Roosevelts ever follow up with the girls that wrote them and give them the things they requested in their letters? – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
== Meridel Lesueur, "Despair of Unemployed Women" ==<br />
<br />
Reading Meridel Lesueur's article really struck me. Just how starved the women were, and the endless sitting at the job bureau day after day. The description of some of their faces really made me feel a little sad. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I found this reading interesting because it showed that the middle class ideals, or what i guess could be described as middle class prejudice or maybe just denial in this case, still affected women even in this time of crisis. Where as before when the economy was good, women were not afforded the same opportunities as men (i.e. lower wages, lower glass ceilings, smaller scope of job opportunities), now in the depression women still arent afforded the same rights and opportunities as men (i.e. no flop houses, a cultural unwillingness to see women living in the parks, and charities only helping the deserving few). -- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
Just the fact that citizens had so much trust in the Roosevelt's, particularly Eleanor, and that they actually did care about the American people, is very refreshing to think about in these jaded times. Phil N.<br />
<br />
This piece really struck me - the despair, the utter hopelessness of these women's lives. But despite everything, many retained their pride, mending their stockings, hiding away in condemned apartments, refusing charity and public displays of poverty. When the author mentioned the one woman who finally broke, it made me think, most of these single women endured starvation and extreme poverty but continued to sit in that office daily waiting for a job that would never come - how strong they were. But somehow, many of these women made it through the Depression - somehow they survived, which really shows the strength of the human condition.~Juliann Boyles<br />
<br />
This piece was so incredible because I got a true sense of the despair of life during the Depression. The images were so vivid: living in condemned apartments, Mrs. Grey, sitting every day at the employment bureau. It emphasized how these women struggled to support their families in such a hopeless time. -Kendall Haring<br />
<br />
Meridel LeSueur highlights that it was very hard for unemployed women in the Depression, and in her discussion she remarks that pretty girls get better jobs. I thought this was interesting, because in another one of my classes, we were talking about how this still happens today… and I think that is disgusting. – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
== Ann Marie Low's "The Dust Bowl" ==<br />
Ann Marie Low's "The Dust Bowl" was intriguing to read. Just how much dust piled up and how much they had to wash to keep their dishes, clothes, and house clean was unreal. I had always been told that there was 'a lot of dust,' but this article really put it in perspective. How did the people manage to live in it? I know that it said many babies and elderly died in it, but how did people live in it? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I really like the piece titled Dust Bowl.Finding out the things these people had to go through. The excessive cleaning that occurs before anything, all the hours put into cleaning are such wasted hours. I never really thought of it like this, all this time spent on the cleaning could have been used for finding a job or getting more food. The one thing that did give me a little relief was that Ann Marie Low, the girl writing this had time for leisure, she was able to go out to the movies, that even through this she was able to maintain some social life. Even though sometimes housekeeping did get in the way she was able to do things for her self. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
Ignoring the fact of the endless dust, life for this family seemed to be much better, as Amanda said the girl seemed to have time for leisure, and the ham, eggs, and bread seem like a feast compared to the rations of crackers described in the earlier readings of women in the cities. Was this true for the majority of rural families compared with those in the cities? Or is this a rare case? As an afterthought, I still havent decided if I would rather starve or live in all that dust, both sound unpleasant.----Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I agree with Ashley how did people survived the dust. Many people suffered but it seems there were ways to survive. Examples are eating weeds for salads, dandelions, lamb's quarter,sheep sorrel, and other things as a food source. --Ashley Scutari<br />
<br />
== Margaret Jarman Hagood's "The Life Cycle of a White Southern Farm Woman" ==<br />
<br />
Margaret Jarman Hagood's "The Life Cycle of a White Southern Farm Woman" was so depressing! I was reading it and toward the end I had to stop and just stare at the book. I never realized that a baby that close to birth who was so active could just... die like that. 11 days before birth! I read it allowed to my husband and our friend who was visiting and they both stared at me and asked "Why are you reading something so depressing!?!?" Does those kinds of death still happen in America today? I mean, that close to birth? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
This article bothered me a bit. Like Ashley I was shocked about the death of her baby so close to its birth but Margaret Hagood seemed to be extremely petty to me. She was annoyed because one of her children wasn't as pretty as she hoped and she just seemed annoyed that she couldn't have all the material things that she wanted. I just found her annoying because she seemed to not be upset because of the hardship of the depression but because she was worried that her daughter and that she, herself, wouldn't be viewed as pretty.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
== Genora Johnson Dollinger, "Women and Labor Militancy" ==<br />
<br />
Dollinger's essay on "Women and Labor Militancy" was interesting. I I had no idea some women took it so far and seriously in these union groups. Sure we've learned how they take a militant approuch, but the lady in this reading was beyond that. What I thought was so interesting about her was how she used her gender against the cops in order to get where and what she wanted. She knew as a women that the cops would not shoot her in the back like they would a man, and therefore marching herself right in there on these strikes helping to defend these men, as well as using a type of reverse psychology on the cops to try and get them to see their fight. Pretty smart. On top of that she is like, oh by the way I had TB while I was doing all of this. She had some guts. She had a lot of women back her up on these strikes and even though the cops did not shoot them like they may have done to men I wonder if any got arrested at least?--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
Dollinger wrote about "Women and Labor Militancy" in the 1930's. Women formed the Emergency Brigade as their form of activism, which at the time was very appreciated by the men it was helping. However, as women's roles in these positions became less necessary and demands were being met, their roles became less necessary. People quickly reverted back to their previous expectations and as it states on page 170 men began saying, "Well, you women did a wonderful job, but now your duty is back there getting those kids in school, getting the wash done, and regular meals again…" Though the women were helpful for that time, does it really show progress for women and their increasingly public roles if it can disappear as quickly as it can emerge? I think it shows how easily the situation of women can change within certain societal conditions, how fragile progress can be, and how easily it is to revert back to the default. The challenge then becomes not how to be more active and make progress at a certain time or under certain circumstances, but how to use all of these collectively to change the default. –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I found it interesting to read the account of a woman raised in Flint Michigan and working with tue unions. Not only was I raised an hour or so south of Flint but both of my grandparents worked for the UAW during the depression. It's interesting to read what these women went through because its not something my grandparents talk about often. -- Rose Ferguson<br />
<br />
== Carlotta Martin's "A Mexican-American Childhood during the Depression" ==<br />
<br />
In "A Mexican-American Childhood during the Depression" Carlotta Martin discusses what is like growing up in the barrio and how difficult life was during the Great Depression. She mentions that it was more common for children to be raised by their grandparents. Would this be in the sense that was it common for grandparents to live in the same households as their children and other extended family and for them to serve as we would see babysitters today? Or did the grandparents take their grandchildren, live separately, and give both parents a chance to work. Was this common within other ethnic groups or social classes as well? Or did it simply serve as an opportunity for the children to get an education as opposed to working to help their struggling families during the depression? –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
<br />
== Photo Essay ==<br />
Personally, I loved the Photo essay. I think that photographs are a really interesting way to show how things have changed from one era to the next and the pictures in this week's reading did just that. Seeing women in pants and with shorter hair on almost every girl was a neat thing to see because this had recently become a new fad. The photos are also a great way to visualize what we were talking about in class on Tuesday, including women working in men's jobs while they went off to war (like in the aviation plant photo) and joining and supporting unions (like in the auto workers' auxiliary photo). It kind of proves that all of this stuff really did happen which is beneficial when it seems kind of unreal that women wearing pants had been such a major controversy. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
== Dorothy Dunbar Bromley on Birth Control in the Depression ==<br />
It annoys me how it took an economic depression to make people realize how important birth control was. It would happen that way, people say how immoral it is until babies become an economic burden that they can't afford. I am glad, however, that they DID realize it was important though because the more children, the harsher the despression would've been. It is sad to see that the poorer people always were the ones having the most children, that is unfortunately the way it usually is.- Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
I agree with Emely Amaya's comment on the studies regarding the high number of births among poor people during the Great Depression. I was sort of wondering and hoping that studies such as those were the reason behind the repeal of prohibitions against the dissemination of information regarding birth control by AMA doctors. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Isnt it still true today that despite the wide availability and knowledge of birth control, the families that can not afford to have a child still are the ones who end up having the most children?--Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I have to ask the same question Landon does because wide availability and knowledge of birth control does not necessarily solve the problem. I'm not suggesting that the Depression did not increase hardships or awareness for birth control. I think that the problem is more complicated. Perhaps the reasons are embedded in culture, or it may have more to do with the subservient status of women to men. In many cases the man dictates the use of birth control. I've read articles that suggest that young women would rather risk pregnancy that lose a boyfriend. Birth control only works if both partners are willing to use it.--LisaM<br />
<br />
When it takes a depression for people to finally realize that having lots of children is not a good idea it really only effects those that had the money to have children in the first place. The ones that cant afford to are still going to have them. The ones that limited children due to the depression were typically middle class families. It is sad, that it continues to be the families that cant afford children that are having such large numbers. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
A very interesting read. I'm almost surprised the "moral crusaders" of the time didn't just encourage an "abstinence only" program. History certainly does mimic itself. Was it me, or was there a "blame the victim" thing going on in Bromley's article underneath everything? The Catholic Church is still pushing the "safe period", or "rythm method." My wife and I now call that program the "go forth and multiply" deal. Been there, done that, DON'T WORK! - Phil N.<br />
<br />
I think that the issue of birth control is still a very strong issue today. As others have pointed out the same groups of people are the ones that financially need it the most. But other than on college campuses I have never really heard of free contraception. Many forms of birth control, including most specifically designed for women to control the use of, are the most expensive and involve going to a doctor. Those who need birth control the most are usually not receiving adequate education and are often discouraged from any practice except abstinence. The statistics in this essay were very powerful and I think the increase in media availabilty made these statistics extremely effective. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
== Lydia Mendoza recalls her career in the Depression ==<br />
I loved the Lydia Mendoza recollection. Her modesty was overwhelming, but at the same time she was able to effectively describe how tough the depression was on families, and especially on minorities. Having to play in the plaza for two nights in a row just to make up the rent for the week had to have been difficult and you can really understand why her mother was hesitant about letting her travel to go on the radio show. If I were her mother I probably would have done the same thing -- her daughter was earning her quite a bit in the plaza so why change that, right? At the same time, I think it was wonderful that the manager found her a sponsor - it's kind of romanticized really and the way a great success story should start. I also liked how, by reading Lydia's piece, you could tell that women were still trying to establish themselves alongside men in the music world (and life in general.) "It was a very pretty sight and very special because we were women and very young..." Her discussion of the plaza being filled entirely with groups of men playing their instruments just emphasizes how all cultures dealt with a gender struggle. --Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
It makes be sad to read how greatly people struggled because of the Great Depression. I, like Kelly, enjoyed reading about Lydia Mendoza. I was moved by the since of "togetherness" her family had. Everyone in the family was involved in the musical group, all working together for survival. I suppose that tragedy and tough times bring people together. The move from Michigan to Texas took 3 months because they had to stop and perform for food and gas. Lydia Mendoza was modest and very sweet with her words. I found it interesting that Lydia's father gave up. He would not get up and to try to get work even when seeing Ignacio coming home with produce to eat. He was proving a point, but his family was starving.--Nikole Wellman<br />
<br />
== P’ing Yu, Racism among white CA Clubwomen, 1937 ==<br />
<br />
An interesting point with this reading. It dutiful for club women to work for rights of African American women but not with them. The Clubwomen still wanted to choose their friends and the members of the clubs.-Nikole Wellman<br />
<br />
<br />
== Louise Mitchell, Denounces the “Slave Markets” where Domestics are Hired in NYC, 1940 ==<br />
<br />
It is so sad that so many young women had to stand on the street corners just to try to get work. I was surprised that domestic workers made up most of the country's job force, especially when it was a last resort job for women. Reading the piece about the domestic "slave markets" really showed how hard it was for women, especially African-American women, to get jobs. --Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
Not to diminish anyone's experience from the Great Depression, but trust me Kellye, everyone was dirt poor. The generation that just died off in my family spoke of the depression often. The women from this era used to embarrass me in public places by collecting all extra foodstuffs, fruits, etc. from open buffets and bars, or after famlily Holy Communion and birthday parties held in a public place. My Grandmother and Great Aunts COULDN'T STAND TO SEE ANYTHING WASTED. They remembered growing up with empty stomachs and no work for the parents and the children. - Phil N.</div>199.111.85.50https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_9_Questions/Comments328--Week 9 Questions/Comments2008-03-20T04:25:18Z<p>199.111.85.50: /* Ann Marie Low's "The Dust Bowl" */</p>
<hr />
<div>== "I Want You Women Up North to Know" by Tillie Olson ==<br />
<br />
In "I Want You Women Up North to Know" by Tillie Olson I found this line hilarious " ...she says that he prays and dreams of a another world...a heaven (which he does not know was brought to earth in 1917 in Russia, by workers like him)"...hind-sight is 20/20 right?- Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
I found this reading interesting but at the same time confusing. Tillie Olson is clearly attacking the women in the north who are buying the clothes that are being made, but its these women that are allowing the women she is writing about to have their jobs. Yes, their conditions are horrible and the pay is horrible, but thats not a reason to attack the other women I would think. I would also think that the depression, while it might have lessened in the Northern cities, was still affecting their lives, so her accusations seem to me to be unjustified.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
I found it interesting that Tillie Olson used a poem to express the conditions of the sweatships and garment workers. It is a very disturbing and graphic poem. A poem tends to be beautiful and lyrical but this really stands out because of how harsh it is in tone. It was really effective in creating the image of such a terrible life. -Kendall Haring<br />
<br />
Did the South have a harder time in the Great Depression because it was less industrialized? – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
== Annelise Orleck, "Militant Housewives of the Depression" ==<br />
<br />
I was amazed to learn how organized and militant housewives were during the Great Depression. Prior to reading this week's reading, I didn't know people were able to actually find constructive ways of regaining a semblance of their previous way of life during the Great Depression. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I LOVED this reading! I enjoyed seeing how women reacted to some of the hardships of the depression in a more aggressive way. I found it interesting that Orleck mentions that the women who were speaking out weren't doing so because they wanted the attention but because they wanted to be able to fulfill their duties as wives and mothers, which fits into the idea of what a woman was supposed to be doing, making their efforts more acceptable in society. I had no idea that they were able to accomplish so much or that the movement of housewives was so widespread across the U.S.! These I think are definitely ones who, if I was a mother during this period, I would want my children to respect and look up to because they were fighting for something they believed so strongly in (even though I'd prefer to be something more than a housewife). -Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
This really was a fun article to read. I was very impressed at how these women managed to keep their life somewhat the same during the depression. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
I too thought this article was very interesting and empowering. The different tactics these housewives used to ban together and create change brought many interesting images to mind. I really like how Moser points out that these movements were " 'an education for women'". However it is quite upsetting that it took these circumstances for this education to occur and for Americans to make the connection of the value between producing and consuming. I wonder did these movements outlast the images and ideals brought to mind by the 1950's? -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
== All Eleanor Roosevelt readings ==<br />
<br />
All of this week's readings about and created by Eleanor Roosevelt really confirmed history's seemingly high opinion of her. The fact that the Roosevelts' were able to constructively respond to all of their mail during the Great Depression is very admirable. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I thougth it was interesting that women actually took the time to write Eleanor Roosevelt about things that they desperately needed, like clothing and jobs for their husbands. Just thinking in today's world and if a depression happened now, I would think it pointless to write the first lady about what I desperately needed, just because I would think she for one probably would never even read the letter and two she probably wouldn't care much less help me. Yet so many women in the 1930's wrote her their depressing situations, I assume because they were just so desperate and no one else could help them so why couldn't the first lady. They probably thougtht too that Eleanor could influence her husband since he was the President to make him do something. Also article 5 and 6 in MP show that Eleanor did actually take recongnition of the problems during the depression and talked about the problems and spoke actively on many of the problems she saw.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
What I found interesting were the letters to the Roosevelt's and specifically Eleanor in both MAW and MPA. Like Michelle had said I wouldn't be writing to the first lady if there was a depression. Especially in today's society the letter would just get lost or thrown away. One of the letters did bother me a bit. I know it really shouldn't have but, the one about the little girl who wants roller blades.... to me its just so wrong. I know she is younger and doesn't understand what is going on, but it just really bugged me that she asked for roller blades when people are dieing of hunger, and are out of work and on the streets. Then there is this girl asking for roller blades because he friends are making fun of her. No matter what age you are things like that just bother me. Also wouldn't the parents maybe explain to their child that mommy and daddy are having a few problems financially? -- Amanda Taub<br />
'''(McClurken don't make fun of me to much in class, I like to be there when i am made fun of save a little for Tuesday).'''<br />
<br />
In response to Amanda's comment - each person, depending on their age, sex or race values different things - to a twelve year old girl, being ostricised in school because her family could not afford a pair of skates seemed just as traumatizing to her as the woman who could not afford clothes for her baby. I know the difference in the degree of severity between these two requests may seem laughable to some, it just goes to show that the Depression was a reality for all. One common theme that I did notice amongst the various letters is the sense of pride Americans still had, despite their desperate conditions. Here is a discussion question: Do you think Americans today still hold that same sense of pride and dignity? ~Juliann Boyles<br />
<br />
For me the most interesting letter to Eleanor Roosevelt was the second one. The woman thanked Roosevelt for her reply to the last letter, but then said she did not need charity just a loan, even sending in collateral she claimed was valuable. However, what bothers me here is not the fact that the first lady could not possibly begin to make individual loans to people, but the size of this woman's ego or pride. She claimed she gave up her rings which held the highest emotional value to her, this is not true. What holds the highest value in this woman's life is clearly her ability to save face, her pride. If she was truly desperate, and in such great need that she would ask a loan from a stranger, she should be willing to give up her greatest asset; that of her ego, and take the charity that the government has set up for her. I have noticed the same trend more subtly throughout the rest of the readings, what is causing this? Is it a few isolated cases or does this pride fit in with the overall atttidue of the day, or somehow into the middle class ideals we have talked so extensively about? --- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I think that pride can be considered a weakness. I could understand a child asking for something as trivial as skates, but the mother sending a shopping list to Eleanor Roosevelt was bothersome. During a time of extreme financial hardship this women focussed on the clothing of an infant. Then I thought that maybe this woman may not have been able to apply to the Welfare Association. In my interview with a senior woman, she mentioned how her mother during the depression found a way to feed the family and save money. She was suggesting aid from the government, which her husband refused. There was a prevailing attitude at the time that if you were working you were not poor, and therefore did not need the government's assistance. Is the act of asking for a baby's layette prompted by this mother's vanity. This woman had to have clothing from previous children, but she seemed intent on having a new set. Is the ability to dress a child, even during the worst of times, a measure of her ability to be a good mother?--LisaM <br />
<br />
I found the reading of "American Women ASk Eleanor for Help" Interesting as well as heartbreaking. It amazed me to read that within a day Eleanor would have 5 to 8 thousand letters and she made a huge effort to either answer them herself or pass it on to the correct agency. It surprised me the things the ladies asked for varying from roller skates to a job for a husband. How was Roosevelt able to answer all of these letters and was she able to satisfy the needs and wants of most? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
<br />
"Eleanor Roosevelt Urges Better Understanding and Cooperation of Both White and Negro Races," <br />
In this reading, she is basically saying that in order to be respected, African Americans need to raise their standards of living. She says that everyone needs to work together to stop injustices.--Nikole Wellman<br />
<br />
I could not believe that women would give up personal belongings to show Mrs. Roosevelt how much they needed help. One women sent Mrs. Roosevelt her rings in order to receive baby clothes. Did Mrs. Roosevelt actually reply back to some of these women's letters? --Ashley Scutari<br />
<br />
Did the Roosevelts ever follow up with the girls that wrote them and give them the things they requested in their letters? – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
== Meridel Lesueur, "Despair of Unemployed Women" ==<br />
<br />
Reading Meridel Lesueur's article really struck me. Just how starved the women were, and the endless sitting at the job bureau day after day. The description of some of their faces really made me feel a little sad. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I found this reading interesting because it showed that the middle class ideals, or what i guess could be described as middle class prejudice or maybe just denial in this case, still affected women even in this time of crisis. Where as before when the economy was good, women were not afforded the same opportunities as men (i.e. lower wages, lower glass ceilings, smaller scope of job opportunities), now in the depression women still arent afforded the same rights and opportunities as men (i.e. no flop houses, a cultural unwillingness to see women living in the parks, and charities only helping the deserving few). -- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
Just the fact that citizens had so much trust in the Roosevelt's, particularly Eleanor, and that they actually did care about the American people, is very refreshing to think about in these jaded times. Phil N.<br />
<br />
This piece really struck me - the despair, the utter hopelessness of these women's lives. But despite everything, many retained their pride, mending their stockings, hiding away in condemned apartments, refusing charity and public displays of poverty. When the author mentioned the one woman who finally broke, it made me think, most of these single women endured starvation and extreme poverty but continued to sit in that office daily waiting for a job that would never come - how strong they were. But somehow, many of these women made it through the Depression - somehow they survived, which really shows the strength of the human condition.~Juliann Boyles<br />
<br />
This piece was so incredible because I got a true sense of the despair of life during the Depression. The images were so vivid: living in condemned apartments, Mrs. Grey, sitting every day at the employment bureau. It emphasized how these women struggled to support their families in such a hopeless time. -Kendall Haring<br />
<br />
Meridel LeSueur highlights that it was very hard for unemployed women in the Depression, and in her discussion she remarks that pretty girls get better jobs. I thought this was interesting, because in another one of my classes, we were talking about how this still happens today… and I think that is disgusting. – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
== Ann Marie Low's "The Dust Bowl" ==<br />
<br />
Ann Marie Low's "The Dust Bowl" was intriguing to read. Just how much dust piled up and how much they had to wash to keep their dishes, clothes, and house clean was unreal. I had always been told that there was 'a lot of dust,' but this article really put it in perspective. How did the people manage to live in it? I know that it said many babies and elderly died in it, but how did people live in it? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I really like the piece titled Dust Bowl.Finding out the things these people had to go through. The excessive cleaning that occurs before anything, all the hours put into cleaning are such wasted hours. I never really thought of it like this, all this time spent on the cleaning could have been used for finding a job or getting more food. The one thing that did give me a little relief was that Ann Marie Low, the girl writing this had time for leisure, she was able to go out to the movies, that even through this she was able to maintain some social life. Even though sometimes housekeeping did get in the way she was able to do things for her self. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
Ignoring the fact of the endless dust, life for this family seemed to be much better, as Amanda said the girl seemed to have time for leisure, and the ham, eggs, and bread seem like a feast compared to the rations of crackers described in the earlier readings of women in the cities. Was this true for the majority of rural families compared with those in the cities? Or is this a rare case? As an afterthought, I still havent decided if I would rather starve or live in all that dust, both sound unpleasant.----Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I agree with Ashley how did people survived the dust. Many people suffered but it seems there were ways to survive. Examples are eating weeds for salads, dandelions, lamb's quarter,sheep sorrel, and other things as a food source. --Ashley Scutari<br />
<br />
== Margaret Jarman Hagood's "The Life Cycle of a White Southern Farm Woman" ==<br />
<br />
Margaret Jarman Hagood's "The Life Cycle of a White Southern Farm Woman" was so depressing! I was reading it and toward the end I had to stop and just stare at the book. I never realized that a baby that close to birth who was so active could just... die like that. 11 days before birth! I read it allowed to my husband and our friend who was visiting and they both stared at me and asked "Why are you reading something so depressing!?!?" Does those kinds of death still happen in America today? I mean, that close to birth? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
This article bothered me a bit. Like Ashley I was shocked about the death of her baby so close to its birth but Margaret Hagood seemed to be extremely petty to me. She was annoyed because one of her children wasn't as pretty as she hoped and she just seemed annoyed that she couldn't have all the material things that she wanted. I just found her annoying because she seemed to not be upset because of the hardship of the depression but because she was worried that her daughter and that she, herself, wouldn't be viewed as pretty.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
== Genora Johnson Dollinger, "Women and Labor Militancy" ==<br />
<br />
Dollinger's essay on "Women and Labor Militancy" was interesting. I I had no idea some women took it so far and seriously in these union groups. Sure we've learned how they take a militant approuch, but the lady in this reading was beyond that. What I thought was so interesting about her was how she used her gender against the cops in order to get where and what she wanted. She knew as a women that the cops would not shoot her in the back like they would a man, and therefore marching herself right in there on these strikes helping to defend these men, as well as using a type of reverse psychology on the cops to try and get them to see their fight. Pretty smart. On top of that she is like, oh by the way I had TB while I was doing all of this. She had some guts. She had a lot of women back her up on these strikes and even though the cops did not shoot them like they may have done to men I wonder if any got arrested at least?--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
Dollinger wrote about "Women and Labor Militancy" in the 1930's. Women formed the Emergency Brigade as their form of activism, which at the time was very appreciated by the men it was helping. However, as women's roles in these positions became less necessary and demands were being met, their roles became less necessary. People quickly reverted back to their previous expectations and as it states on page 170 men began saying, "Well, you women did a wonderful job, but now your duty is back there getting those kids in school, getting the wash done, and regular meals again…" Though the women were helpful for that time, does it really show progress for women and their increasingly public roles if it can disappear as quickly as it can emerge? I think it shows how easily the situation of women can change within certain societal conditions, how fragile progress can be, and how easily it is to revert back to the default. The challenge then becomes not how to be more active and make progress at a certain time or under certain circumstances, but how to use all of these collectively to change the default. –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I found it interesting to read the account of a woman raised in Flint Michigan and working with tue unions. Not only was I raised an hour or so south of Flint but both of my grandparents worked for the UAW during the depression. It's interesting to read what these women went through because its not something my grandparents talk about often. -- Rose Ferguson<br />
<br />
== Carlotta Martin's "A Mexican-American Childhood during the Depression" ==<br />
<br />
In "A Mexican-American Childhood during the Depression" Carlotta Martin discusses what is like growing up in the barrio and how difficult life was during the Great Depression. She mentions that it was more common for children to be raised by their grandparents. Would this be in the sense that was it common for grandparents to live in the same households as their children and other extended family and for them to serve as we would see babysitters today? Or did the grandparents take their grandchildren, live separately, and give both parents a chance to work. Was this common within other ethnic groups or social classes as well? Or did it simply serve as an opportunity for the children to get an education as opposed to working to help their struggling families during the depression? –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
<br />
== Photo Essay ==<br />
Personally, I loved the Photo essay. I think that photographs are a really interesting way to show how things have changed from one era to the next and the pictures in this week's reading did just that. Seeing women in pants and with shorter hair on almost every girl was a neat thing to see because this had recently become a new fad. The photos are also a great way to visualize what we were talking about in class on Tuesday, including women working in men's jobs while they went off to war (like in the aviation plant photo) and joining and supporting unions (like in the auto workers' auxiliary photo). It kind of proves that all of this stuff really did happen which is beneficial when it seems kind of unreal that women wearing pants had been such a major controversy. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
== Dorothy Dunbar Bromley on Birth Control in the Depression ==<br />
It annoys me how it took an economic depression to make people realize how important birth control was. It would happen that way, people say how immoral it is until babies become an economic burden that they can't afford. I am glad, however, that they DID realize it was important though because the more children, the harsher the despression would've been. It is sad to see that the poorer people always were the ones having the most children, that is unfortunately the way it usually is.- Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
I agree with Emely Amaya's comment on the studies regarding the high number of births among poor people during the Great Depression. I was sort of wondering and hoping that studies such as those were the reason behind the repeal of prohibitions against the dissemination of information regarding birth control by AMA doctors. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Isnt it still true today that despite the wide availability and knowledge of birth control, the families that can not afford to have a child still are the ones who end up having the most children?--Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I have to ask the same question Landon does because wide availability and knowledge of birth control does not necessarily solve the problem. I'm not suggesting that the Depression did not increase hardships or awareness for birth control. I think that the problem is more complicated. Perhaps the reasons are embedded in culture, or it may have more to do with the subservient status of women to men. In many cases the man dictates the use of birth control. I've read articles that suggest that young women would rather risk pregnancy that lose a boyfriend. Birth control only works if both partners are willing to use it.--LisaM<br />
<br />
When it takes a depression for people to finally realize that having lots of children is not a good idea it really only effects those that had the money to have children in the first place. The ones that cant afford to are still going to have them. The ones that limited children due to the depression were typically middle class families. It is sad, that it continues to be the families that cant afford children that are having such large numbers. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
A very interesting read. I'm almost surprised the "moral crusaders" of the time didn't just encourage an "abstinence only" program. History certainly does mimic itself. Was it me, or was there a "blame the victim" thing going on in Bromley's article underneath everything? The Catholic Church is still pushing the "safe period", or "rythm method." My wife and I now call that program the "go forth and multiply" deal. Been there, done that, DON'T WORK! - Phil N.<br />
<br />
I think that the issue of birth control is still a very strong issue today. As others have pointed out the same groups of people are the ones that financially need it the most. But other than on college campuses I have never really heard of free contraception. Many forms of birth control, including most specifically designed for women to control the use of, are the most expensive and involve going to a doctor. Those who need birth control the most are usually not receiving adequate education and are often discouraged from any practice except abstinence. The statistics in this essay were very powerful and I think the increase in media availabilty made these statistics extremely effective. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
== Lydia Mendoza recalls her career in the Depression ==<br />
I loved the Lydia Mendoza recollection. Her modesty was overwhelming, but at the same time she was able to effectively describe how tough the depression was on families, and especially on minorities. Having to play in the plaza for two nights in a row just to make up the rent for the week had to have been difficult and you can really understand why her mother was hesitant about letting her travel to go on the radio show. If I were her mother I probably would have done the same thing -- her daughter was earning her quite a bit in the plaza so why change that, right? At the same time, I think it was wonderful that the manager found her a sponsor - it's kind of romanticized really and the way a great success story should start. I also liked how, by reading Lydia's piece, you could tell that women were still trying to establish themselves alongside men in the music world (and life in general.) "It was a very pretty sight and very special because we were women and very young..." Her discussion of the plaza being filled entirely with groups of men playing their instruments just emphasizes how all cultures dealt with a gender struggle. --Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
It makes be sad to read how greatly people struggled because of the Great Depression. I, like Kelly, enjoyed reading about Lydia Mendoza. I was moved by the since of "togetherness" her family had. Everyone in the family was involved in the musical group, all working together for survival. I suppose that tragedy and tough times bring people together. The move from Michigan to Texas took 3 months because they had to stop and perform for food and gas. Lydia Mendoza was modest and very sweet with her words. I found it interesting that Lydia's father gave up. He would not get up and to try to get work even when seeing Ignacio coming home with produce to eat. He was proving a point, but his family was starving.--Nikole Wellman<br />
<br />
== P’ing Yu, Racism among white CA Clubwomen, 1937 ==<br />
<br />
An interesting point with this reading. It dutiful for club women to work for rights of African American women but not with them. The Clubwomen still wanted to choose their friends and the members of the clubs.-Nikole Wellman<br />
<br />
<br />
== Louise Mitchell, Denounces the “Slave Markets” where Domestics are Hired in NYC, 1940 ==<br />
<br />
It is so sad that so many young women had to stand on the street corners just to try to get work. I was surprised that domestic workers made up most of the country's job force, especially when it was a last resort job for women. Reading the piece about the domestic "slave markets" really showed how hard it was for women, especially African-American women, to get jobs. --Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
Not to diminish anyone's experience from the Great Depression, but trust me Kellye, everyone was dirt poor. The generation that just died off in my family spoke of the depression often. The women from this era used to embarrass me in public places by collecting all extra foodstuffs, fruits, etc. from open buffets and bars, or after famlily Holy Communion and birthday parties held in a public place. My Grandmother and Great Aunts COULDN'T STAND TO SEE ANYTHING WASTED. They remembered growing up with empty stomachs and no work for the parents and the children. - Phil N.</div>199.111.85.50https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_9_Questions/Comments328--Week 9 Questions/Comments2008-03-20T04:13:32Z<p>199.111.85.50: /* All Eleanor Roosevelt readings */</p>
<hr />
<div>== "I Want You Women Up North to Know" by Tillie Olson ==<br />
<br />
In "I Want You Women Up North to Know" by Tillie Olson I found this line hilarious " ...she says that he prays and dreams of a another world...a heaven (which he does not know was brought to earth in 1917 in Russia, by workers like him)"...hind-sight is 20/20 right?- Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
I found this reading interesting but at the same time confusing. Tillie Olson is clearly attacking the women in the north who are buying the clothes that are being made, but its these women that are allowing the women she is writing about to have their jobs. Yes, their conditions are horrible and the pay is horrible, but thats not a reason to attack the other women I would think. I would also think that the depression, while it might have lessened in the Northern cities, was still affecting their lives, so her accusations seem to me to be unjustified.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
I found it interesting that Tillie Olson used a poem to express the conditions of the sweatships and garment workers. It is a very disturbing and graphic poem. A poem tends to be beautiful and lyrical but this really stands out because of how harsh it is in tone. It was really effective in creating the image of such a terrible life. -Kendall Haring<br />
<br />
== Annelise Orleck, "Militant Housewives of the Depression" ==<br />
<br />
I was amazed to learn how organized and militant housewives were during the Great Depression. Prior to reading this week's reading, I didn't know people were able to actually find constructive ways of regaining a semblance of their previous way of life during the Great Depression. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I LOVED this reading! I enjoyed seeing how women reacted to some of the hardships of the depression in a more aggressive way. I found it interesting that Orleck mentions that the women who were speaking out weren't doing so because they wanted the attention but because they wanted to be able to fulfill their duties as wives and mothers, which fits into the idea of what a woman was supposed to be doing, making their efforts more acceptable in society. I had no idea that they were able to accomplish so much or that the movement of housewives was so widespread across the U.S.! These I think are definitely ones who, if I was a mother during this period, I would want my children to respect and look up to because they were fighting for something they believed so strongly in (even though I'd prefer to be something more than a housewife). -Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
This really was a fun article to read. I was very impressed at how these women managed to keep their life somewhat the same during the depression. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
I too thought this article was very interesting and empowering. The different tactics these housewives used to ban together and create change brought many interesting images to mind. I really like how Moser points out that these movements were " 'an education for women'". However it is quite upsetting that it took these circumstances for this education to occur and for Americans to make the connection of the value between producing and consuming. I wonder did these movements outlast the images and ideals brought to mind by the 1950's? -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
== All Eleanor Roosevelt readings ==<br />
<br />
All of this week's readings about and created by Eleanor Roosevelt really confirmed history's seemingly high opinion of her. The fact that the Roosevelts' were able to constructively respond to all of their mail during the Great Depression is very admirable. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I thougth it was interesting that women actually took the time to write Eleanor Roosevelt about things that they desperately needed, like clothing and jobs for their husbands. Just thinking in today's world and if a depression happened now, I would think it pointless to write the first lady about what I desperately needed, just because I would think she for one probably would never even read the letter and two she probably wouldn't care much less help me. Yet so many women in the 1930's wrote her their depressing situations, I assume because they were just so desperate and no one else could help them so why couldn't the first lady. They probably thougtht too that Eleanor could influence her husband since he was the President to make him do something. Also article 5 and 6 in MP show that Eleanor did actually take recongnition of the problems during the depression and talked about the problems and spoke actively on many of the problems she saw.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
What I found interesting were the letters to the Roosevelt's and specifically Eleanor in both MAW and MPA. Like Michelle had said I wouldn't be writing to the first lady if there was a depression. Especially in today's society the letter would just get lost or thrown away. One of the letters did bother me a bit. I know it really shouldn't have but, the one about the little girl who wants roller blades.... to me its just so wrong. I know she is younger and doesn't understand what is going on, but it just really bugged me that she asked for roller blades when people are dieing of hunger, and are out of work and on the streets. Then there is this girl asking for roller blades because he friends are making fun of her. No matter what age you are things like that just bother me. Also wouldn't the parents maybe explain to their child that mommy and daddy are having a few problems financially? -- Amanda Taub<br />
'''(McClurken don't make fun of me to much in class, I like to be there when i am made fun of save a little for Tuesday).'''<br />
<br />
In response to Amanda's comment - each person, depending on their age, sex or race values different things - to a twelve year old girl, being ostricised in school because her family could not afford a pair of skates seemed just as traumatizing to her as the woman who could not afford clothes for her baby. I know the difference in the degree of severity between these two requests may seem laughable to some, it just goes to show that the Depression was a reality for all. One common theme that I did notice amongst the various letters is the sense of pride Americans still had, despite their desperate conditions. Here is a discussion question: Do you think Americans today still hold that same sense of pride and dignity? ~Juliann Boyles<br />
<br />
For me the most interesting letter to Eleanor Roosevelt was the second one. The woman thanked Roosevelt for her reply to the last letter, but then said she did not need charity just a loan, even sending in collateral she claimed was valuable. However, what bothers me here is not the fact that the first lady could not possibly begin to make individual loans to people, but the size of this woman's ego or pride. She claimed she gave up her rings which held the highest emotional value to her, this is not true. What holds the highest value in this woman's life is clearly her ability to save face, her pride. If she was truly desperate, and in such great need that she would ask a loan from a stranger, she should be willing to give up her greatest asset; that of her ego, and take the charity that the government has set up for her. I have noticed the same trend more subtly throughout the rest of the readings, what is causing this? Is it a few isolated cases or does this pride fit in with the overall atttidue of the day, or somehow into the middle class ideals we have talked so extensively about? --- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I think that pride can be considered a weakness. I could understand a child asking for something as trivial as skates, but the mother sending a shopping list to Eleanor Roosevelt was bothersome. During a time of extreme financial hardship this women focussed on the clothing of an infant. Then I thought that maybe this woman may not have been able to apply to the Welfare Association. In my interview with a senior woman, she mentioned how her mother during the depression found a way to feed the family and save money. She was suggesting aid from the government, which her husband refused. There was a prevailing attitude at the time that if you were working you were not poor, and therefore did not need the government's assistance. Is the act of asking for a baby's layette prompted by this mother's vanity. This woman had to have clothing from previous children, but she seemed intent on having a new set. Is the ability to dress a child, even during the worst of times, a measure of her ability to be a good mother?--LisaM <br />
<br />
I found the reading of "American Women ASk Eleanor for Help" Interesting as well as heartbreaking. It amazed me to read that within a day Eleanor would have 5 to 8 thousand letters and she made a huge effort to either answer them herself or pass it on to the correct agency. It surprised me the things the ladies asked for varying from roller skates to a job for a husband. How was Roosevelt able to answer all of these letters and was she able to satisfy the needs and wants of most? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
<br />
"Eleanor Roosevelt Urges Better Understanding and Cooperation of Both White and Negro Races," <br />
In this reading, she is basically saying that in order to be respected, African Americans need to raise their standards of living. She says that everyone needs to work together to stop injustices.--Nikole Wellman<br />
<br />
I could not believe that women would give up personal belongings to show Mrs. Roosevelt how much they needed help. One women sent Mrs. Roosevelt her rings in order to receive baby clothes. Did Mrs. Roosevelt actually reply back to some of these women's letters? --Ashley Scutari<br />
<br />
== Meridel Lesueur, "Despair of Unemployed Women" ==<br />
<br />
Reading Meridel Lesueur's article really struck me. Just how starved the women were, and the endless sitting at the job bureau day after day. The description of some of their faces really made me feel a little sad. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I found this reading interesting because it showed that the middle class ideals, or what i guess could be described as middle class prejudice or maybe just denial in this case, still affected women even in this time of crisis. Where as before when the economy was good, women were not afforded the same opportunities as men (i.e. lower wages, lower glass ceilings, smaller scope of job opportunities), now in the depression women still arent afforded the same rights and opportunities as men (i.e. no flop houses, a cultural unwillingness to see women living in the parks, and charities only helping the deserving few). -- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
Just the fact that citizens had so much trust in the Roosevelt's, particularly Eleanor, and that they actually did care about the American people, is very refreshing to think about in these jaded times. Phil N.<br />
<br />
This piece really struck me - the despair, the utter hopelessness of these women's lives. But despite everything, many retained their pride, mending their stockings, hiding away in condemned apartments, refusing charity and public displays of poverty. When the author mentioned the one woman who finally broke, it made me think, most of these single women endured starvation and extreme poverty but continued to sit in that office daily waiting for a job that would never come - how strong they were. But somehow, many of these women made it through the Depression - somehow they survived, which really shows the strength of the human condition.~Juliann Boyles<br />
<br />
This piece was so incredible because I got a true sense of the despair of life during the Depression. The images were so vivid: living in condemned apartments, Mrs. Grey, sitting every day at the employment bureau. It emphasized how these women struggled to support their families in such a hopeless time. -Kendall Haring<br />
<br />
== Ann Marie Low's "The Dust Bowl" ==<br />
<br />
Ann Marie Low's "The Dust Bowl" was intriguing to read. Just how much dust piled up and how much they had to wash to keep their dishes, clothes, and house clean was unreal. I had always been told that there was 'a lot of dust,' but this article really put it in perspective. How did the people manage to live in it? I know that it said many babies and elderly died in it, but how did people live in it? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I really like the piece titled Dust Bowl.Finding out the things these people had to go through. The excessive cleaning that occurs before anything, all the hours put into cleaning are such wasted hours. I never really thought of it like this, all this time spent on the cleaning could have been used for finding a job or getting more food. The one thing that did give me a little relief was that Ann Marie Low, the girl writing this had time for leisure, she was able to go out to the movies, that even through this she was able to maintain some social life. Even though sometimes housekeeping did get in the way she was able to do things for her self. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
Ignoring the fact of the endless dust, life for this family seemed to be much better, as Amanda said the girl seemed to have time for leisure, and the ham, eggs, and bread seem like a feast compared to the rations of crackers described in the earlier readings of women in the cities. Was this true for the majority of rural families compared with those in the cities? Or is this a rare case? As an afterthought, I still havent decided if I would rather starve or live in all that dust, both sound unpleasant.----Landon Davis<br />
<br />
== Margaret Jarman Hagood's "The Life Cycle of a White Southern Farm Woman" ==<br />
<br />
Margaret Jarman Hagood's "The Life Cycle of a White Southern Farm Woman" was so depressing! I was reading it and toward the end I had to stop and just stare at the book. I never realized that a baby that close to birth who was so active could just... die like that. 11 days before birth! I read it allowed to my husband and our friend who was visiting and they both stared at me and asked "Why are you reading something so depressing!?!?" Does those kinds of death still happen in America today? I mean, that close to birth? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
This article bothered me a bit. Like Ashley I was shocked about the death of her baby so close to its birth but Margaret Hagood seemed to be extremely petty to me. She was annoyed because one of her children wasn't as pretty as she hoped and she just seemed annoyed that she couldn't have all the material things that she wanted. I just found her annoying because she seemed to not be upset because of the hardship of the depression but because she was worried that her daughter and that she, herself, wouldn't be viewed as pretty.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
== Genora Johnson Dollinger, "Women and Labor Militancy" ==<br />
<br />
Dollinger's essay on "Women and Labor Militancy" was interesting. I I had no idea some women took it so far and seriously in these union groups. Sure we've learned how they take a militant approuch, but the lady in this reading was beyond that. What I thought was so interesting about her was how she used her gender against the cops in order to get where and what she wanted. She knew as a women that the cops would not shoot her in the back like they would a man, and therefore marching herself right in there on these strikes helping to defend these men, as well as using a type of reverse psychology on the cops to try and get them to see their fight. Pretty smart. On top of that she is like, oh by the way I had TB while I was doing all of this. She had some guts. She had a lot of women back her up on these strikes and even though the cops did not shoot them like they may have done to men I wonder if any got arrested at least?--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
Dollinger wrote about "Women and Labor Militancy" in the 1930's. Women formed the Emergency Brigade as their form of activism, which at the time was very appreciated by the men it was helping. However, as women's roles in these positions became less necessary and demands were being met, their roles became less necessary. People quickly reverted back to their previous expectations and as it states on page 170 men began saying, "Well, you women did a wonderful job, but now your duty is back there getting those kids in school, getting the wash done, and regular meals again…" Though the women were helpful for that time, does it really show progress for women and their increasingly public roles if it can disappear as quickly as it can emerge? I think it shows how easily the situation of women can change within certain societal conditions, how fragile progress can be, and how easily it is to revert back to the default. The challenge then becomes not how to be more active and make progress at a certain time or under certain circumstances, but how to use all of these collectively to change the default. –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I found it interesting to read the account of a woman raised in Flint Michigan and working with tue unions. Not only was I raised an hour or so south of Flint but both of my grandparents worked for the UAW during the depression. It's interesting to read what these women went through because its not something my grandparents talk about often. -- Rose Ferguson<br />
<br />
== Carlotta Martin's "A Mexican-American Childhood during the Depression" ==<br />
<br />
In "A Mexican-American Childhood during the Depression" Carlotta Martin discusses what is like growing up in the barrio and how difficult life was during the Great Depression. She mentions that it was more common for children to be raised by their grandparents. Would this be in the sense that was it common for grandparents to live in the same households as their children and other extended family and for them to serve as we would see babysitters today? Or did the grandparents take their grandchildren, live separately, and give both parents a chance to work. Was this common within other ethnic groups or social classes as well? Or did it simply serve as an opportunity for the children to get an education as opposed to working to help their struggling families during the depression? –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
<br />
== Photo Essay ==<br />
Personally, I loved the Photo essay. I think that photographs are a really interesting way to show how things have changed from one era to the next and the pictures in this week's reading did just that. Seeing women in pants and with shorter hair on almost every girl was a neat thing to see because this had recently become a new fad. The photos are also a great way to visualize what we were talking about in class on Tuesday, including women working in men's jobs while they went off to war (like in the aviation plant photo) and joining and supporting unions (like in the auto workers' auxiliary photo). It kind of proves that all of this stuff really did happen which is beneficial when it seems kind of unreal that women wearing pants had been such a major controversy. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
== Dorothy Dunbar Bromley on Birth Control in the Depression ==<br />
It annoys me how it took an economic depression to make people realize how important birth control was. It would happen that way, people say how immoral it is until babies become an economic burden that they can't afford. I am glad, however, that they DID realize it was important though because the more children, the harsher the despression would've been. It is sad to see that the poorer people always were the ones having the most children, that is unfortunately the way it usually is.- Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
I agree with Emely Amaya's comment on the studies regarding the high number of births among poor people during the Great Depression. I was sort of wondering and hoping that studies such as those were the reason behind the repeal of prohibitions against the dissemination of information regarding birth control by AMA doctors. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Isnt it still true today that despite the wide availability and knowledge of birth control, the families that can not afford to have a child still are the ones who end up having the most children?--Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I have to ask the same question Landon does because wide availability and knowledge of birth control does not necessarily solve the problem. I'm not suggesting that the Depression did not increase hardships or awareness for birth control. I think that the problem is more complicated. Perhaps the reasons are embedded in culture, or it may have more to do with the subservient status of women to men. In many cases the man dictates the use of birth control. I've read articles that suggest that young women would rather risk pregnancy that lose a boyfriend. Birth control only works if both partners are willing to use it.--LisaM<br />
<br />
When it takes a depression for people to finally realize that having lots of children is not a good idea it really only effects those that had the money to have children in the first place. The ones that cant afford to are still going to have them. The ones that limited children due to the depression were typically middle class families. It is sad, that it continues to be the families that cant afford children that are having such large numbers. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
A very interesting read. I'm almost surprised the "moral crusaders" of the time didn't just encourage an "abstinence only" program. History certainly does mimic itself. Was it me, or was there a "blame the victim" thing going on in Bromley's article underneath everything? The Catholic Church is still pushing the "safe period", or "rythm method." My wife and I now call that program the "go forth and multiply" deal. Been there, done that, DON'T WORK! - Phil N.<br />
<br />
== Lydia Mendoza recalls her career in the Depression ==<br />
I loved the Lydia Mendoza recollection. Her modesty was overwhelming, but at the same time she was able to effectively describe how tough the depression was on families, and especially on minorities. Having to play in the plaza for two nights in a row just to make up the rent for the week had to have been difficult and you can really understand why her mother was hesitant about letting her travel to go on the radio show. If I were her mother I probably would have done the same thing -- her daughter was earning her quite a bit in the plaza so why change that, right? At the same time, I think it was wonderful that the manager found her a sponsor - it's kind of romanticized really and the way a great success story should start. I also liked how, by reading Lydia's piece, you could tell that women were still trying to establish themselves alongside men in the music world (and life in general.) "It was a very pretty sight and very special because we were women and very young..." Her discussion of the plaza being filled entirely with groups of men playing their instruments just emphasizes how all cultures dealt with a gender struggle. --Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
It makes be sad to read how greatly people struggled because of the Great Depression. I, like Kelly, enjoyed reading about Lydia Mendoza. I was moved by the since of "togetherness" her family had. Everyone in the family was involved in the musical group, all working together for survival. I suppose that tragedy and tough times bring people together. The move from Michigan to Texas took 3 months because they had to stop and perform for food and gas. Lydia Mendoza was modest and very sweet with her words. I found it interesting that Lydia's father gave up. He would not get up and to try to get work even when seeing Ignacio coming home with produce to eat. He was proving a point, but his family was starving.--Nikole Wellman<br />
<br />
== P’ing Yu, Racism among white CA Clubwomen, 1937 ==<br />
<br />
An interesting point with this reading. It dutiful for club women to work for rights of African American women but not with them. The Clubwomen still wanted to choose their friends and the members of the clubs.-Nikole Wellman<br />
<br />
<br />
== Louise Mitchell, Denounces the “Slave Markets” where Domestics are Hired in NYC, 1940 ==<br />
<br />
It is so sad that so many young women had to stand on the street corners just to try to get work. I was surprised that domestic workers made up most of the country's job force, especially when it was a last resort job for women. Reading the piece about the domestic "slave markets" really showed how hard it was for women, especially African-American women, to get jobs. --Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
Not to diminish anyone's experience from the Great Depression, but trust me Kellye, everyone was dirt poor. The generation that just died off in my family spoke of the depression often. The women from this era used to embarrass me in public places by collecting all extra foodstuffs, fruits, etc. from open buffets and bars, or after famlily Holy Communion and birthday parties held in a public place. My Grandmother and Great Aunts COULDN'T STAND TO SEE ANYTHING WASTED. They remembered growing up with empty stomachs and no work for the parents and the children. - Phil N.</div>199.111.85.50https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_9_Questions/Comments328--Week 9 Questions/Comments2008-03-20T03:49:35Z<p>199.111.85.50: /* "I Want You Women Up North to Know" by Tillie Olson */</p>
<hr />
<div>== "I Want You Women Up North to Know" by Tillie Olson ==<br />
<br />
In "I Want You Women Up North to Know" by Tillie Olson I found this line hilarious " ...she says that he prays and dreams of a another world...a heaven (which he does not know was brought to earth in 1917 in Russia, by workers like him)"...hind-sight is 20/20 right?- Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
I found this reading interesting but at the same time confusing. Tillie Olson is clearly attacking the women in the north who are buying the clothes that are being made, but its these women that are allowing the women she is writing about to have their jobs. Yes, their conditions are horrible and the pay is horrible, but thats not a reason to attack the other women I would think. I would also think that the depression, while it might have lessened in the Northern cities, was still affecting their lives, so her accusations seem to me to be unjustified.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
I found it interesting that Tillie Olson used a poem to express the conditions of the sweatships and garment workers. It is a very disturbing and graphic poem. A poem tends to be beautiful and lyrical but this really stands out because of how harsh it is in tone. It was really effective in creating the image of such a terrible life. -Kendall Haring<br />
<br />
== Annelise Orleck, "Militant Housewives of the Depression" ==<br />
<br />
I was amazed to learn how organized and militant housewives were during the Great Depression. Prior to reading this week's reading, I didn't know people were able to actually find constructive ways of regaining a semblance of their previous way of life during the Great Depression. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I LOVED this reading! I enjoyed seeing how women reacted to some of the hardships of the depression in a more aggressive way. I found it interesting that Orleck mentions that the women who were speaking out weren't doing so because they wanted the attention but because they wanted to be able to fulfill their duties as wives and mothers, which fits into the idea of what a woman was supposed to be doing, making their efforts more acceptable in society. I had no idea that they were able to accomplish so much or that the movement of housewives was so widespread across the U.S.! These I think are definitely ones who, if I was a mother during this period, I would want my children to respect and look up to because they were fighting for something they believed so strongly in (even though I'd prefer to be something more than a housewife). -Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
This really was a fun article to read. I was very impressed at how these women managed to keep their life somewhat the same during the depression. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
== All Eleanor Roosevelt readings ==<br />
<br />
All of this week's readings about and created by Eleanor Roosevelt really confirmed history's seemingly high opinion of her. The fact that the Roosevelts' were able to constructively respond to all of their mail during the Great Depression is very admirable. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I thougth it was interesting that women actually took the time to write Eleanor Roosevelt about things that they desperately needed, like clothing and jobs for their husbands. Just thinking in today's world and if a depression happened now, I would think it pointless to write the first lady about what I desperately needed, just because I would think she for one probably would never even read the letter and two she probably wouldn't care much less help me. Yet so many women in the 1930's wrote her their depressing situations, I assume because they were just so desperate and no one else could help them so why couldn't the first lady. They probably thougtht too that Eleanor could influence her husband since he was the President to make him do something. Also article 5 and 6 in MP show that Eleanor did actually take recongnition of the problems during the depression and talked about the problems and spoke actively on many of the problems she saw.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
What I found interesting were the letters to the Roosevelt's and specifically Eleanor in both MAW and MPA. Like Michelle had said I wouldn't be writing to the first lady if there was a depression. Especially in today's society the letter would just get lost or thrown away. One of the letters did bother me a bit. I know it really shouldn't have but, the one about the little girl who wants roller blades.... to me its just so wrong. I know she is younger and doesn't understand what is going on, but it just really bugged me that she asked for roller blades when people are dieing of hunger, and are out of work and on the streets. Then there is this girl asking for roller blades because he friends are making fun of her. No matter what age you are things like that just bother me. Also wouldn't the parents maybe explain to their child that mommy and daddy are having a few problems financially? -- Amanda Taub<br />
'''(McClurken don't make fun of me to much in class, I like to be there when i am made fun of save a little for Tuesday).'''<br />
<br />
In response to Amanda's comment - each person, depending on their age, sex or race values different things - to a twelve year old girl, being ostricised in school because her family could not afford a pair of skates seemed just as traumatizing to her as the woman who could not afford clothes for her baby. I know the difference in the degree of severity between these two requests may seem laughable to some, it just goes to show that the Depression was a reality for all. One common theme that I did notice amongst the various letters is the sense of pride Americans still had, despite their desperate conditions. Here is a discussion question: Do you think Americans today still hold that same sense of pride and dignity? ~Juliann Boyles<br />
<br />
For me the most interesting letter to Eleanor Roosevelt was the second one. The woman thanked Roosevelt for her reply to the last letter, but then said she did not need charity just a loan, even sending in collateral she claimed was valuable. However, what bothers me here is not the fact that the first lady could not possibly begin to make individual loans to people, but the size of this woman's ego or pride. She claimed she gave up her rings which held the highest emotional value to her, this is not true. What holds the highest value in this woman's life is clearly her ability to save face, her pride. If she was truly desperate, and in such great need that she would ask a loan from a stranger, she should be willing to give up her greatest asset; that of her ego, and take the charity that the government has set up for her. I have noticed the same trend more subtly throughout the rest of the readings, what is causing this? Is it a few isolated cases or does this pride fit in with the overall atttidue of the day, or somehow into the middle class ideals we have talked so extensively about? --- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I think that pride can be considered a weakness. I could understand a child asking for something as trivial as skates, but the mother sending a shopping list to Eleanor Roosevelt was bothersome. During a time of extreme financial hardship this women focussed on the clothing of an infant. Then I thought that maybe this woman may not have been able to apply to the Welfare Association. In my interview with a senior woman, she mentioned how her mother during the depression found a way to feed the family and save money. She was suggesting aid from the government, which her husband refused. There was a prevailing attitude at the time that if you were working you were not poor, and therefore did not need the government's assistance. Is the act of asking for a baby's layette prompted by this mother's vanity. This woman had to have clothing from previous children, but she seemed intent on having a new set. Is the ability to dress a child, even during the worst of times, a measure of her ability to be a good mother?--LisaM <br />
<br />
I found the reading of "American Women ASk Eleanor for Help" Interesting as well as heartbreaking. It amazed me to read that within a day Eleanor would have 5 to 8 thousand letters and she made a huge effort to either answer them herself or pass it on to the correct agency. It surprised me the things the ladies asked for varying from roller skates to a job for a husband. How was Roosevelt able to answer all of these letters and was she able to satisfy the needs and wants of most? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
<br />
"Eleanor Roosevelt Urges Better Understanding and Cooperation of Both White and Negro Races," <br />
In this reading, she is basically saying that in order to be respected, African Americans need to raise their standards of living. She says that everyone needs to work together to stop injustices.--Nikole Wellman<br />
<br />
== Meridel Lesueur, "Despair of Unemployed Women" ==<br />
<br />
Reading Meridel Lesueur's article really struck me. Just how starved the women were, and the endless sitting at the job bureau day after day. The description of some of their faces really made me feel a little sad. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I found this reading interesting because it showed that the middle class ideals, or what i guess could be described as middle class prejudice or maybe just denial in this case, still affected women even in this time of crisis. Where as before when the economy was good, women were not afforded the same opportunities as men (i.e. lower wages, lower glass ceilings, smaller scope of job opportunities), now in the depression women still arent afforded the same rights and opportunities as men (i.e. no flop houses, a cultural unwillingness to see women living in the parks, and charities only helping the deserving few). -- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
Just the fact that citizens had so much trust in the Roosevelt's, particularly Eleanor, and that they actually did care about the American people, is very refreshing to think about in these jaded times. Phil N.<br />
<br />
This piece really struck me - the despair, the utter hopelessness of these women's lives. But despite everything, many retained their pride, mending their stockings, hiding away in condemned apartments, refusing charity and public displays of poverty. When the author mentioned the one woman who finally broke, it made me think, most of these single women endured starvation and extreme poverty but continued to sit in that office daily waiting for a job that would never come - how strong they were. But somehow, many of these women made it through the Depression - somehow they survived, which really shows the strength of the human condition.~Juliann Boyles<br />
<br />
This piece was so incredible because I got a true sense of the despair of life during the Depression. The images were so vivid: living in condemned apartments, Mrs. Grey, sitting every day at the employment bureau. It emphasized how these women struggled to support their families in such a hopeless time. -Kendall Haring<br />
<br />
== Ann Marie Low's "The Dust Bowl" ==<br />
<br />
Ann Marie Low's "The Dust Bowl" was intriguing to read. Just how much dust piled up and how much they had to wash to keep their dishes, clothes, and house clean was unreal. I had always been told that there was 'a lot of dust,' but this article really put it in perspective. How did the people manage to live in it? I know that it said many babies and elderly died in it, but how did people live in it? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I really like the piece titled Dust Bowl.Finding out the things these people had to go through. The excessive cleaning that occurs before anything, all the hours put into cleaning are such wasted hours. I never really thought of it like this, all this time spent on the cleaning could have been used for finding a job or getting more food. The one thing that did give me a little relief was that Ann Marie Low, the girl writing this had time for leisure, she was able to go out to the movies, that even through this she was able to maintain some social life. Even though sometimes housekeeping did get in the way she was able to do things for her self. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
Ignoring the fact of the endless dust, life for this family seemed to be much better, as Amanda said the girl seemed to have time for leisure, and the ham, eggs, and bread seem like a feast compared to the rations of crackers described in the earlier readings of women in the cities. Was this true for the majority of rural families compared with those in the cities? Or is this a rare case? As an afterthought, I still havent decided if I would rather starve or live in all that dust, both sound unpleasant.----Landon Davis<br />
<br />
== Margaret Jarman Hagood's "The Life Cycle of a White Southern Farm Woman" ==<br />
<br />
Margaret Jarman Hagood's "The Life Cycle of a White Southern Farm Woman" was so depressing! I was reading it and toward the end I had to stop and just stare at the book. I never realized that a baby that close to birth who was so active could just... die like that. 11 days before birth! I read it allowed to my husband and our friend who was visiting and they both stared at me and asked "Why are you reading something so depressing!?!?" Does those kinds of death still happen in America today? I mean, that close to birth? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
This article bothered me a bit. Like Ashley I was shocked about the death of her baby so close to its birth but Margaret Hagood seemed to be extremely petty to me. She was annoyed because one of her children wasn't as pretty as she hoped and she just seemed annoyed that she couldn't have all the material things that she wanted. I just found her annoying because she seemed to not be upset because of the hardship of the depression but because she was worried that her daughter and that she, herself, wouldn't be viewed as pretty.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
== Genora Johnson Dollinger, "Women and Labor Militancy" ==<br />
<br />
Dollinger's essay on "Women and Labor Militancy" was interesting. I I had no idea some women took it so far and seriously in these union groups. Sure we've learned how they take a militant approuch, but the lady in this reading was beyond that. What I thought was so interesting about her was how she used her gender against the cops in order to get where and what she wanted. She knew as a women that the cops would not shoot her in the back like they would a man, and therefore marching herself right in there on these strikes helping to defend these men, as well as using a type of reverse psychology on the cops to try and get them to see their fight. Pretty smart. On top of that she is like, oh by the way I had TB while I was doing all of this. She had some guts. She had a lot of women back her up on these strikes and even though the cops did not shoot them like they may have done to men I wonder if any got arrested at least?--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
Dollinger wrote about "Women and Labor Militancy" in the 1930's. Women formed the Emergency Brigade as their form of activism, which at the time was very appreciated by the men it was helping. However, as women's roles in these positions became less necessary and demands were being met, their roles became less necessary. People quickly reverted back to their previous expectations and as it states on page 170 men began saying, "Well, you women did a wonderful job, but now your duty is back there getting those kids in school, getting the wash done, and regular meals again…" Though the women were helpful for that time, does it really show progress for women and their increasingly public roles if it can disappear as quickly as it can emerge? I think it shows how easily the situation of women can change within certain societal conditions, how fragile progress can be, and how easily it is to revert back to the default. The challenge then becomes not how to be more active and make progress at a certain time or under certain circumstances, but how to use all of these collectively to change the default. –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I found it interesting to read the account of a woman raised in Flint Michigan and working with tue unions. Not only was I raised an hour or so south of Flint but both of my grandparents worked for the UAW during the depression. It's interesting to read what these women went through because its not something my grandparents talk about often. -- Rose Ferguson<br />
<br />
== Carlotta Martin's "A Mexican-American Childhood during the Depression" ==<br />
<br />
In "A Mexican-American Childhood during the Depression" Carlotta Martin discusses what is like growing up in the barrio and how difficult life was during the Great Depression. She mentions that it was more common for children to be raised by their grandparents. Would this be in the sense that was it common for grandparents to live in the same households as their children and other extended family and for them to serve as we would see babysitters today? Or did the grandparents take their grandchildren, live separately, and give both parents a chance to work. Was this common within other ethnic groups or social classes as well? Or did it simply serve as an opportunity for the children to get an education as opposed to working to help their struggling families during the depression? –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
<br />
== Photo Essay ==<br />
Personally, I loved the Photo essay. I think that photographs are a really interesting way to show how things have changed from one era to the next and the pictures in this week's reading did just that. Seeing women in pants and with shorter hair on almost every girl was a neat thing to see because this had recently become a new fad. The photos are also a great way to visualize what we were talking about in class on Tuesday, including women working in men's jobs while they went off to war (like in the aviation plant photo) and joining and supporting unions (like in the auto workers' auxiliary photo). It kind of proves that all of this stuff really did happen which is beneficial when it seems kind of unreal that women wearing pants had been such a major controversy. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
== Dorothy Dunbar Bromley on Birth Control in the Depression ==<br />
It annoys me how it took an economic depression to make people realize how important birth control was. It would happen that way, people say how immoral it is until babies become an economic burden that they can't afford. I am glad, however, that they DID realize it was important though because the more children, the harsher the despression would've been. It is sad to see that the poorer people always were the ones having the most children, that is unfortunately the way it usually is.- Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
I agree with Emely Amaya's comment on the studies regarding the high number of births among poor people during the Great Depression. I was sort of wondering and hoping that studies such as those were the reason behind the repeal of prohibitions against the dissemination of information regarding birth control by AMA doctors. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Isnt it still true today that despite the wide availability and knowledge of birth control, the families that can not afford to have a child still are the ones who end up having the most children?--Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I have to ask the same question Landon does because wide availability and knowledge of birth control does not necessarily solve the problem. I'm not suggesting that the Depression did not increase hardships or awareness for birth control. I think that the problem is more complicated. Perhaps the reasons are embedded in culture, or it may have more to do with the subservient status of women to men. In many cases the man dictates the use of birth control. I've read articles that suggest that young women would rather risk pregnancy that lose a boyfriend. Birth control only works if both partners are willing to use it.--LisaM<br />
<br />
When it takes a depression for people to finally realize that having lots of children is not a good idea it really only effects those that had the money to have children in the first place. The ones that cant afford to are still going to have them. The ones that limited children due to the depression were typically middle class families. It is sad, that it continues to be the families that cant afford children that are having such large numbers. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
A very interesting read. I'm almost surprised the "moral crusaders" of the time didn't just encourage an "abstinence only" program. History certainly does mimic itself. Was it me, or was there a "blame the victim" thing going on in Bromley's article underneath everything? The Catholic Church is still pushing the "safe period", or "rythm method." My wife and I now call that program the "go forth and multiply" deal. Been there, done that, DON'T WORK! - Phil N.<br />
<br />
== Lydia Mendoza recalls her career in the Depression ==<br />
I loved the Lydia Mendoza recollection. Her modesty was overwhelming, but at the same time she was able to effectively describe how tough the depression was on families, and especially on minorities. Having to play in the plaza for two nights in a row just to make up the rent for the week had to have been difficult and you can really understand why her mother was hesitant about letting her travel to go on the radio show. If I were her mother I probably would have done the same thing -- her daughter was earning her quite a bit in the plaza so why change that, right? At the same time, I think it was wonderful that the manager found her a sponsor - it's kind of romanticized really and the way a great success story should start. I also liked how, by reading Lydia's piece, you could tell that women were still trying to establish themselves alongside men in the music world (and life in general.) "It was a very pretty sight and very special because we were women and very young..." Her discussion of the plaza being filled entirely with groups of men playing their instruments just emphasizes how all cultures dealt with a gender struggle. --Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
It makes be sad to read how greatly people struggled because of the Great Depression. I, like Kelly, enjoyed reading about Lydia Mendoza. I was moved by the since of "togetherness" her family had. Everyone in the family was involved in the musical group, all working together for survival. I suppose that tragedy and tough times bring people together. The move from Michigan to Texas took 3 months because they had to stop and perform for food and gas. Lydia Mendoza was modest and very sweet with her words. I found it interesting that Lydia's father gave up. He would not get up and to try to get work even when seeing Ignacio coming home with produce to eat. He was proving a point, but his family was starving.--Nikole Wellman<br />
<br />
== P’ing Yu, Racism among white CA Clubwomen, 1937 ==<br />
<br />
An interesting point with this reading. It dutiful for club women to work for rights of African American women but not with them. The Clubwomen still wanted to choose their friends and the members of the clubs.-Nikole Wellman<br />
<br />
<br />
== Louise Mitchell, Denounces the “Slave Markets” where Domestics are Hired in NYC, 1940 ==<br />
<br />
It is so sad that so many young women had to stand on the street corners just to try to get work. I was surprised that domestic workers made up most of the country's job force, especially when it was a last resort job for women. Reading the piece about the domestic "slave markets" really showed how hard it was for women, especially African-American women, to get jobs. --Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
Not to diminish anyone's experience from the Great Depression, but trust me Kellye, everyone was dirt poor. The generation that just died off in my family spoke of the depression often. The women from this era used to embarrass me in public places by collecting all extra foodstuffs, fruits, etc. from open buffets and bars, or after famlily Holy Communion and birthday parties held in a public place. My Grandmother and Great Aunts COULDN'T STAND TO SEE ANYTHING WASTED. They remembered growing up with empty stomachs and no work for the parents and the children. - Phil N.</div>199.111.85.50https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_9_Questions/Comments328--Week 9 Questions/Comments2008-03-20T03:33:49Z<p>199.111.85.50: /* Meridel Lesueur, "Despair of Unemployed Women" */</p>
<hr />
<div>== "I Want You Women Up North to Know" by Tillie Olson ==<br />
<br />
In "I Want You Women Up North to Know" by Tillie Olson I found this line hilarious " ...she says that he prays and dreams of a another world...a heaven (which he does not know was brought to earth in 1917 in Russia, by workers like him)"...hind-sight is 20/20 right?- Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
I found this reading interesting but at the same time confusing. Tillie Olson is clearly attacking the women in the north who are buying the clothes that are being made, but its these women that are allowing the women she is writing about to have their jobs. Yes, their conditions are horrible and the pay is horrible, but thats not a reason to attack the other women I would think. I would also think that the depression, while it might have lessened in the Northern cities, was still affecting their lives, so her accusations seem to me to be unjustified.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
== Annelise Orleck, "Militant Housewives of the Depression" ==<br />
<br />
I was amazed to learn how organized and militant housewives were during the Great Depression. Prior to reading this week's reading, I didn't know people were able to actually find constructive ways of regaining a semblance of their previous way of life during the Great Depression. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I LOVED this reading! I enjoyed seeing how women reacted to some of the hardships of the depression in a more aggressive way. I found it interesting that Orleck mentions that the women who were speaking out weren't doing so because they wanted the attention but because they wanted to be able to fulfill their duties as wives and mothers, which fits into the idea of what a woman was supposed to be doing, making their efforts more acceptable in society. I had no idea that they were able to accomplish so much or that the movement of housewives was so widespread across the U.S.! These I think are definitely ones who, if I was a mother during this period, I would want my children to respect and look up to because they were fighting for something they believed so strongly in (even though I'd prefer to be something more than a housewife). -Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
This really was a fun article to read. I was very impressed at how these women managed to keep their life somewhat the same during the depression. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
== All Eleanor Roosevelt readings ==<br />
<br />
All of this week's readings about and created by Eleanor Roosevelt really confirmed history's seemingly high opinion of her. The fact that the Roosevelts' were able to constructively respond to all of their mail during the Great Depression is very admirable. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I thougth it was interesting that women actually took the time to write Eleanor Roosevelt about things that they desperately needed, like clothing and jobs for their husbands. Just thinking in today's world and if a depression happened now, I would think it pointless to write the first lady about what I desperately needed, just because I would think she for one probably would never even read the letter and two she probably wouldn't care much less help me. Yet so many women in the 1930's wrote her their depressing situations, I assume because they were just so desperate and no one else could help them so why couldn't the first lady. They probably thougtht too that Eleanor could influence her husband since he was the President to make him do something. Also article 5 and 6 in MP show that Eleanor did actually take recongnition of the problems during the depression and talked about the problems and spoke actively on many of the problems she saw.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
What I found interesting were the letters to the Roosevelt's and specifically Eleanor in both MAW and MPA. Like Michelle had said I wouldn't be writing to the first lady if there was a depression. Especially in today's society the letter would just get lost or thrown away. One of the letters did bother me a bit. I know it really shouldn't have but, the one about the little girl who wants roller blades.... to me its just so wrong. I know she is younger and doesn't understand what is going on, but it just really bugged me that she asked for roller blades when people are dieing of hunger, and are out of work and on the streets. Then there is this girl asking for roller blades because he friends are making fun of her. No matter what age you are things like that just bother me. Also wouldn't the parents maybe explain to their child that mommy and daddy are having a few problems financially? -- Amanda Taub<br />
'''(McClurken don't make fun of me to much in class, I like to be there when i am made fun of save a little for Tuesday).'''<br />
<br />
In response to Amanda's comment - each person, depending on their age, sex or race values different things - to a twelve year old girl, being ostricised in school because her family could not afford a pair of skates seemed just as traumatizing to her as the woman who could not afford clothes for her baby. I know the difference in the degree of severity between these two requests may seem laughable to some, it just goes to show that the Depression was a reality for all. One common theme that I did notice amongst the various letters is the sense of pride Americans still had, despite their desperate conditions. Here is a discussion question: Do you think Americans today still hold that same sense of pride and dignity? ~Juliann Boyles<br />
<br />
For me the most interesting letter to Eleanor Roosevelt was the second one. The woman thanked Roosevelt for her reply to the last letter, but then said she did not need charity just a loan, even sending in collateral she claimed was valuable. However, what bothers me here is not the fact that the first lady could not possibly begin to make individual loans to people, but the size of this woman's ego or pride. She claimed she gave up her rings which held the highest emotional value to her, this is not true. What holds the highest value in this woman's life is clearly her ability to save face, her pride. If she was truly desperate, and in such great need that she would ask a loan from a stranger, she should be willing to give up her greatest asset; that of her ego, and take the charity that the government has set up for her. I have noticed the same trend more subtly throughout the rest of the readings, what is causing this? Is it a few isolated cases or does this pride fit in with the overall atttidue of the day, or somehow into the middle class ideals we have talked so extensively about? --- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I think that pride can be considered a weakness. I could understand a child asking for something as trivial as skates, but the mother sending a shopping list to Eleanor Roosevelt was bothersome. During a time of extreme financial hardship this women focussed on the clothing of an infant. Then I thought that maybe this woman may not have been able to apply to the Welfare Association. In my interview with a senior woman, she mentioned how her mother during the depression found a way to feed the family and save money. She was suggesting aid from the government, which her husband refused. There was a prevailing attitude at the time that if you were working you were not poor, and therefore did not need the government's assistance. Is the act of asking for a baby's layette prompted by this mother's vanity. This woman had to have clothing from previous children, but she seemed intent on having a new set. Is the ability to dress a child, even during the worst of times, a measure of her ability to be a good mother?--LisaM <br />
<br />
I found the reading of "American Women ASk Eleanor for Help" Interesting as well as heartbreaking. It amazed me to read that within a day Eleanor would have 5 to 8 thousand letters and she made a huge effort to either answer them herself or pass it on to the correct agency. It surprised me the things the ladies asked for varying from roller skates to a job for a husband. How was Roosevelt able to answer all of these letters and was she able to satisfy the needs and wants of most? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
<br />
"Eleanor Roosevelt Urges Better Understanding and Cooperation of Both White and Negro Races," <br />
In this reading, she is basically saying that in order to be respected, African Americans need to raise their standards of living. She says that everyone needs to work together to stop injustices.--Nikole Wellman<br />
<br />
== Meridel Lesueur, "Despair of Unemployed Women" ==<br />
<br />
Reading Meridel Lesueur's article really struck me. Just how starved the women were, and the endless sitting at the job bureau day after day. The description of some of their faces really made me feel a little sad. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I found this reading interesting because it showed that the middle class ideals, or what i guess could be described as middle class prejudice or maybe just denial in this case, still affected women even in this time of crisis. Where as before when the economy was good, women were not afforded the same opportunities as men (i.e. lower wages, lower glass ceilings, smaller scope of job opportunities), now in the depression women still arent afforded the same rights and opportunities as men (i.e. no flop houses, a cultural unwillingness to see women living in the parks, and charities only helping the deserving few). -- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
Just the fact that citizens had so much trust in the Roosevelt's, particularly Eleanor, and that they actually did care about the American people, is very refreshing to think about in these jaded times. Phil N.<br />
<br />
This piece really struck me - the despair, the utter hopelessness of these women's lives. But despite everything, many retained their pride, mending their stockings, hiding away in condemned apartments, refusing charity and public displays of poverty. When the author mentioned the one woman who finally broke, it made me think, most of these single women endured starvation and extreme poverty but continued to sit in that office daily waiting for a job that would never come - how strong they were. But somehow, many of these women made it through the Depression - somehow they survived, which really shows the strength of the human condition.~Juliann Boyles<br />
<br />
This piece was so incredible because I got a true sense of the despair of life during the Depression. The images were so vivid: living in condemned apartments, Mrs. Grey, sitting every day at the employment bureau. It emphasized how these women struggled to support their families in such a hopeless time. -Kendall Haring<br />
<br />
== Ann Marie Low's "The Dust Bowl" ==<br />
<br />
Ann Marie Low's "The Dust Bowl" was intriguing to read. Just how much dust piled up and how much they had to wash to keep their dishes, clothes, and house clean was unreal. I had always been told that there was 'a lot of dust,' but this article really put it in perspective. How did the people manage to live in it? I know that it said many babies and elderly died in it, but how did people live in it? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I really like the piece titled Dust Bowl.Finding out the things these people had to go through. The excessive cleaning that occurs before anything, all the hours put into cleaning are such wasted hours. I never really thought of it like this, all this time spent on the cleaning could have been used for finding a job or getting more food. The one thing that did give me a little relief was that Ann Marie Low, the girl writing this had time for leisure, she was able to go out to the movies, that even through this she was able to maintain some social life. Even though sometimes housekeeping did get in the way she was able to do things for her self. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
Ignoring the fact of the endless dust, life for this family seemed to be much better, as Amanda said the girl seemed to have time for leisure, and the ham, eggs, and bread seem like a feast compared to the rations of crackers described in the earlier readings of women in the cities. Was this true for the majority of rural families compared with those in the cities? Or is this a rare case? As an afterthought, I still havent decided if I would rather starve or live in all that dust, both sound unpleasant.----Landon Davis<br />
<br />
== Margaret Jarman Hagood's "The Life Cycle of a White Southern Farm Woman" ==<br />
<br />
Margaret Jarman Hagood's "The Life Cycle of a White Southern Farm Woman" was so depressing! I was reading it and toward the end I had to stop and just stare at the book. I never realized that a baby that close to birth who was so active could just... die like that. 11 days before birth! I read it allowed to my husband and our friend who was visiting and they both stared at me and asked "Why are you reading something so depressing!?!?" Does those kinds of death still happen in America today? I mean, that close to birth? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
This article bothered me a bit. Like Ashley I was shocked about the death of her baby so close to its birth but Margaret Hagood seemed to be extremely petty to me. She was annoyed because one of her children wasn't as pretty as she hoped and she just seemed annoyed that she couldn't have all the material things that she wanted. I just found her annoying because she seemed to not be upset because of the hardship of the depression but because she was worried that her daughter and that she, herself, wouldn't be viewed as pretty.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
== Genora Johnson Dollinger, "Women and Labor Militancy" ==<br />
<br />
Dollinger's essay on "Women and Labor Militancy" was interesting. I I had no idea some women took it so far and seriously in these union groups. Sure we've learned how they take a militant approuch, but the lady in this reading was beyond that. What I thought was so interesting about her was how she used her gender against the cops in order to get where and what she wanted. She knew as a women that the cops would not shoot her in the back like they would a man, and therefore marching herself right in there on these strikes helping to defend these men, as well as using a type of reverse psychology on the cops to try and get them to see their fight. Pretty smart. On top of that she is like, oh by the way I had TB while I was doing all of this. She had some guts. She had a lot of women back her up on these strikes and even though the cops did not shoot them like they may have done to men I wonder if any got arrested at least?--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
Dollinger wrote about "Women and Labor Militancy" in the 1930's. Women formed the Emergency Brigade as their form of activism, which at the time was very appreciated by the men it was helping. However, as women's roles in these positions became less necessary and demands were being met, their roles became less necessary. People quickly reverted back to their previous expectations and as it states on page 170 men began saying, "Well, you women did a wonderful job, but now your duty is back there getting those kids in school, getting the wash done, and regular meals again…" Though the women were helpful for that time, does it really show progress for women and their increasingly public roles if it can disappear as quickly as it can emerge? I think it shows how easily the situation of women can change within certain societal conditions, how fragile progress can be, and how easily it is to revert back to the default. The challenge then becomes not how to be more active and make progress at a certain time or under certain circumstances, but how to use all of these collectively to change the default. –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I found it interesting to read the account of a woman raised in Flint Michigan and working with tue unions. Not only was I raised an hour or so south of Flint but both of my grandparents worked for the UAW during the depression. It's interesting to read what these women went through because its not something my grandparents talk about often. -- Rose Ferguson<br />
<br />
== Carlotta Martin's "A Mexican-American Childhood during the Depression" ==<br />
<br />
In "A Mexican-American Childhood during the Depression" Carlotta Martin discusses what is like growing up in the barrio and how difficult life was during the Great Depression. She mentions that it was more common for children to be raised by their grandparents. Would this be in the sense that was it common for grandparents to live in the same households as their children and other extended family and for them to serve as we would see babysitters today? Or did the grandparents take their grandchildren, live separately, and give both parents a chance to work. Was this common within other ethnic groups or social classes as well? Or did it simply serve as an opportunity for the children to get an education as opposed to working to help their struggling families during the depression? –Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
<br />
== Photo Essay ==<br />
Personally, I loved the Photo essay. I think that photographs are a really interesting way to show how things have changed from one era to the next and the pictures in this week's reading did just that. Seeing women in pants and with shorter hair on almost every girl was a neat thing to see because this had recently become a new fad. The photos are also a great way to visualize what we were talking about in class on Tuesday, including women working in men's jobs while they went off to war (like in the aviation plant photo) and joining and supporting unions (like in the auto workers' auxiliary photo). It kind of proves that all of this stuff really did happen which is beneficial when it seems kind of unreal that women wearing pants had been such a major controversy. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
== Dorothy Dunbar Bromley on Birth Control in the Depression ==<br />
It annoys me how it took an economic depression to make people realize how important birth control was. It would happen that way, people say how immoral it is until babies become an economic burden that they can't afford. I am glad, however, that they DID realize it was important though because the more children, the harsher the despression would've been. It is sad to see that the poorer people always were the ones having the most children, that is unfortunately the way it usually is.- Emely Amaya<br />
<br />
I agree with Emely Amaya's comment on the studies regarding the high number of births among poor people during the Great Depression. I was sort of wondering and hoping that studies such as those were the reason behind the repeal of prohibitions against the dissemination of information regarding birth control by AMA doctors. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Isnt it still true today that despite the wide availability and knowledge of birth control, the families that can not afford to have a child still are the ones who end up having the most children?--Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I have to ask the same question Landon does because wide availability and knowledge of birth control does not necessarily solve the problem. I'm not suggesting that the Depression did not increase hardships or awareness for birth control. I think that the problem is more complicated. Perhaps the reasons are embedded in culture, or it may have more to do with the subservient status of women to men. In many cases the man dictates the use of birth control. I've read articles that suggest that young women would rather risk pregnancy that lose a boyfriend. Birth control only works if both partners are willing to use it.--LisaM<br />
<br />
When it takes a depression for people to finally realize that having lots of children is not a good idea it really only effects those that had the money to have children in the first place. The ones that cant afford to are still going to have them. The ones that limited children due to the depression were typically middle class families. It is sad, that it continues to be the families that cant afford children that are having such large numbers. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
A very interesting read. I'm almost surprised the "moral crusaders" of the time didn't just encourage an "abstinence only" program. History certainly does mimic itself. Was it me, or was there a "blame the victim" thing going on in Bromley's article underneath everything? The Catholic Church is still pushing the "safe period", or "rythm method." My wife and I now call that program the "go forth and multiply" deal. Been there, done that, DON'T WORK! - Phil N.<br />
<br />
== Lydia Mendoza recalls her career in the Depression ==<br />
I loved the Lydia Mendoza recollection. Her modesty was overwhelming, but at the same time she was able to effectively describe how tough the depression was on families, and especially on minorities. Having to play in the plaza for two nights in a row just to make up the rent for the week had to have been difficult and you can really understand why her mother was hesitant about letting her travel to go on the radio show. If I were her mother I probably would have done the same thing -- her daughter was earning her quite a bit in the plaza so why change that, right? At the same time, I think it was wonderful that the manager found her a sponsor - it's kind of romanticized really and the way a great success story should start. I also liked how, by reading Lydia's piece, you could tell that women were still trying to establish themselves alongside men in the music world (and life in general.) "It was a very pretty sight and very special because we were women and very young..." Her discussion of the plaza being filled entirely with groups of men playing their instruments just emphasizes how all cultures dealt with a gender struggle. --Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
It makes be sad to read how greatly people struggled because of the Great Depression. I, like Kelly, enjoyed reading about Lydia Mendoza. I was moved by the since of "togetherness" her family had. Everyone in the family was involved in the musical group, all working together for survival. I suppose that tragedy and tough times bring people together. The move from Michigan to Texas took 3 months because they had to stop and perform for food and gas. Lydia Mendoza was modest and very sweet with her words. I found it interesting that Lydia's father gave up. He would not get up and to try to get work even when seeing Ignacio coming home with produce to eat. He was proving a point, but his family was starving.--Nikole Wellman<br />
<br />
== P’ing Yu, Racism among white CA Clubwomen, 1937 ==<br />
<br />
An interesting point with this reading. It dutiful for club women to work for rights of African American women but not with them. The Clubwomen still wanted to choose their friends and the members of the clubs.-Nikole Wellman<br />
<br />
<br />
== Louise Mitchell, Denounces the “Slave Markets” where Domestics are Hired in NYC, 1940 ==<br />
<br />
It is so sad that so many young women had to stand on the street corners just to try to get work. I was surprised that domestic workers made up most of the country's job force, especially when it was a last resort job for women. Reading the piece about the domestic "slave markets" really showed how hard it was for women, especially African-American women, to get jobs. --Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
Not to diminish anyone's experience from the Great Depression, but trust me Kellye, everyone was dirt poor. The generation that just died off in my family spoke of the depression often. The women from this era used to embarrass me in public places by collecting all extra foodstuffs, fruits, etc. from open buffets and bars, or after famlily Holy Communion and birthday parties held in a public place. My Grandmother and Great Aunts COULDN'T STAND TO SEE ANYTHING WASTED. They remembered growing up with empty stomachs and no work for the parents and the children. - Phil N.</div>199.111.85.50https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=HIST_131--Week_9_Questions/CommentsHIST 131--Week 9 Questions/Comments2008-03-19T18:45:04Z<p>199.111.85.50: </p>
<hr />
<div>A Jeffersonian Sailmaker's Fourth of July Address - While reading this source i was noticing the somewhat hypocritical this man's stance was on "liberty". He kept saying things like "not inured to the tactics of war, untaught in the practice of barbarity, not accustomed to the clang of arms" to describe his fellow countrymen, apparently forgetting the way they treated the Native Americans and the African Americans! He also said they should "do to others as we wish them to do unto us"...did the colonists actually not realize the hypocrisy in their so called "morals"? He was so blatantly saying how great America was for letting everyone experience liberty and freedom, obviously forgetting that they weren't actually doing that at all! - Jessie Bright<br />
<br />
Letters from a Man of Colour... - In this source i noticed how he said that many free black men had property that they earned upon becoming free. I was surprised that this was the case, i always assumed that free black men were still very discriminated against and would never have been able to aquire land after being liberated, he made it seem that many free slaves were well off. I'm sure this isn't the case? Did any free black men or women ever experience a comfortable lifestyle after being freed? - Jessie Bright<br />
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Joseph Brant "Indian vs. White Civilization, 1789. This document reminded me of a really good HBO documentary movie I saw a couple of years ago, "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee." The experiences of Joseph Brant were similar to the main character in the movie. I know the setting for the movie was later in the 19th century, but if anyone has seen this movie, do they know if it is historically accurate to some extent? If it is I highly recommend the movie to get a visualization of what was occurring during this time period. --Nick Scott--<br />
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"Madison Hemings Recalls Life as Thomas Jefferson's Enslaved Son" I was curious to how prevalent white slave owners fornicated with slaves? In Jefferson's situation there must of been certain individuals who knew of his relationship with Sally Hemings. How did they feel about it and what were the repercussions, if any? Also, how did his wife feel about this, if she knew at all? At the end of the document one of the questions states, how credible is Madison's testimony? I was curious as to others thoughts on this subject. --Nick Scott--<br />
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In his address to the Mandans, why would Jefferson put their relationship in the context of father and child? I would assume that since they just came out of a war where they were fighting to get out of a relationship like that, that in turn, the would be wary to utilize the same method? -Dani Jones<br />
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After reading Joseph Brant's response to the question of Indian vs. White Civilization, i began thinking about how the different influences of the society made them no uniquely different. The indian society never had the mentatlity of individuality over the group while, the american society came over with that society. My question is then, after the colonists settled, was there an increase in crime and "individual-minded" behavior among the native american societies? Or did they always did they always find the things that the colonists to be innately evil?- Dani Jones</div>199.111.85.50https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=HIST_131--Week_9_Questions/CommentsHIST 131--Week 9 Questions/Comments2008-03-19T18:31:51Z<p>199.111.85.50: </p>
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<div>A Jeffersonian Sailmaker's Fourth of July Address - While reading this source i was noticing the somewhat hypocritical this man's stance was on "liberty". He kept saying things like "not inured to the tactics of war, untaught in the practice of barbarity, not accustomed to the clang of arms" to describe his fellow countrymen, apparently forgetting the way they treated the Native Americans and the African Americans! He also said they should "do to others as we wish them to do unto us"...did the colonists actually not realize the hypocrisy in their so called "morals"? He was so blatantly saying how great America was for letting everyone experience liberty and freedom, obviously forgetting that they weren't actually doing that at all! - Jessie Bright<br />
<br />
Letters from a Man of Colour... - In this source i noticed how he said that many free black men had property that they earned upon becoming free. I was surprised that this was the case, i always assumed that free black men were still very discriminated against and would never have been able to aquire land after being liberated, he made it seem that many free slaves were well off. I'm sure this isn't the case? Did any free black men or women ever experience a comfortable lifestyle after being freed? - Jessie Bright<br />
<br />
Joseph Brant "Indian vs. White Civilization, 1789. This document reminded me of a really good HBO documentary movie I saw a couple of years ago, "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee." The experiences of Joseph Brant were similar to the main character in the movie. I know the setting for the movie was later in the 19th century, but if anyone has seen this movie, do they know if it is historically accurate to some extent? If it is I highly recommend the movie to get a visualization of what was occurring during this time period. --Nick Scott--<br />
<br />
"Madison Hemings Recalls Life as Thomas Jefferson's Enslaved Son" I was curious to how prevalent white slave owners fornicated with slaves? In Jefferson's situation there must of been certain individuals who knew of his relationship with Sally Hemings. How did they feel about it and what were the repercussions, if any? Also, how did his wife feel about this, if she knew at all? At the end of the document one of the questions states, how credible is Madison's testimony? I was curious as to others thoughts on this subject. --Nick Scott--<br />
<br />
In his address to the Mandans, why would Jefferson put their relationship in the context of father and child? I would assume that since they just came out of a war where they were fighting to get out of a relationship like that, that in turn, the would be wary to utilize the same method? -Dani Jones</div>199.111.85.50https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=HIST_299HIST 2992007-08-31T13:18:49Z<p>199.111.85.50: </p>
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<div>This is the future space for the Fall 2007 -- HIST 299 -- Introduction to the Study of History.<br />
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http://apothecary.umwblogs.org/ -- Lauren Villiva<br />
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http://eweaver.umwblogs.org/ -- Elle Weaver<br />
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http://jkilday.umwblogs.org/ -- Jessica Kilday<br />
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http://cspeth.umwblogs.org/ -- Cheryl Speth<br />
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http://ellenf.umwblogs.org/ -- Ellen Fritz<br />
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http://historyjustin.umwblogs.org/ -- Justin Mattos<br />
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http://maura.umwblogs.org/ -- Maura Johnson<br />
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http://embea.umwblogs.org/ -- Mary Beth Conrad<br />
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http://kawilson.umwblogs.org/ -- Kari Wilson<br />
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http://cdavis3.umwblogs.org/ -- Carthon Davis<br />
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http://amandashumaker.umwblogs.org/ -- Amanda Shumaker<br />
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http://mstruth.umwblogs.org/ -- Matt Struth</div>199.111.85.50 Deprecated: header(): Passing null to parameter #3 ($response_code) of type int is deprecated in /home/umwhisto/public_html/mcclurken/wiki/includes/WebResponse.php on line 38