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Deprecated: header(): Passing null to parameter #3 ($response_code) of type int is deprecated in /home/umwhisto/public_html/mcclurken/wiki/includes/WebResponse.php on line 38 https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/api.php?action=feedcontributions&feedformat=atom&user=199.111.70.160McClurken Wiki - User contributions [en]2026-09-18T22:33:29ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.22.0https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=HIST_131--Week_13_Questions/CommentsHIST 131--Week 13 Questions/Comments2008-04-18T05:06:15Z<p>199.111.70.160: /* Jefferson Davis and the Pro-Slavery view of the Constitution, Speech before US Senate, May 1860 */</p>
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<div>== Ulysses S. Grant Recalls the Mexican War, 1885-1886 ==<br />
Ulysses S. Grant's "Personal Memoirs, 1885-1886." There are obvious discrepancies in this document because it is a memoir, but I was curious if Grant’s perceptions of the Mexican-American War were changed after he became the President of the United States? ~Megan Tisdelle~<br />
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In his memoirs, Grant is obviously very passionate about how the Americans took advantage of the Mexican government in order to acquire more land. My question then becomes is there any way to know how his personal opinions about the situation influenced his actions during the war and how he commanded his troops? -Dani Jones<br />
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In his memoirs, Grant talks about Santa Anna. I was wondering when they captured him and why? It says that they made a treaty while he was a POW, but "his life was in jeopardy". I am just confused about this whole situation because I dont remember talking about it in class..?- Taylor Warner<br />
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I found it very interesting when Grant compared and contrasted both General Scott, and General Taylor. It shows more the relationship of the three generals and more of a in depth view of each of them. Grant is very careful it seems not to be biased as to which of the men he favors (if any) and instead gives clear cut details about particular behavioral aspects. such as, how Taylor wore his clothes in battle that he was comfortable in, etc...-Paul Carter<br />
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In Grant's memoirs, he talks about the army that fought the Mexican-American war. While General Taylor was more into comfort, clothes he could get down and dirty in, General Scott was more into the significance of the uniform and the exact meaning of being in the army. Also in the memoirs, Grant talks about the differences between the American army and the Mexican army; the Mexican army is untrained, randomly plucked off the street, whereas the American army is trained through everything from boot camp to West Point. The army in 1885 is very similar to today's military process as far as training goes. This is sort of irrelevant to the document, but I was wondering--when exactly did the United States establish procedure for joining the military that has lasted until today? Also, did General Taylor's experience in the war affect him or influence him later on when he became president in 1840?-- Meganne Lemon<br />
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I liked reading Grant's Memoirs because a lot of time in history we talk about the norms, so in this time period expansion was a norm. To read Grant criticizing the people of Texas for their disregard of the Mexican constitution which prohibits slavery and attributing it to their desire for land, I felt like we had new insight into the time period and how people feel, and it just reiterated to me that looking at history by what most people were doing isn't bad but we have to look at people who have different views or behaviors as well. -Melissa Brokes<br />
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This passage was particularly interesting. I was most interested by the statement, "Mexico showing no willingness to come to the Nueces to drive the invaders from her soil, it became necessary for the 'invaders' to approach to within a convenient distance to be struck. Accordingly, preparations were begun for moving the army to the Rio Grande, to a point near Matamoras..." (p.232). This statement was very interesting because it shows the taunting behavior that the Americans demonstrated in order for the war to begin so that they did not have to technically initiate combat. This statement also demonstrates the amount of determination that the Americans had to obtain Texas. Quincey Garcia<br />
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So, in Grants Memoir, he writes, "For myself, I was bitterly opposed to the measure [to annex Texas] and to this day regard the war which resulted as one of the most unjust ever waged by a stronger aganist a weaker nation." I take this quote to mean that Grant really did not like the idea of annexing Texas. So my question is that was he unhappy about the annexation because he was from the north, and did others from the north typicaly share this reaction or is it more of a personal issue? -Kristina Scrimshaw<br />
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== Lincoln, KS NE Act speech, 1854 ==<br />
Abraham Lincoln's "Speech in Peoria, Illinois, October 16, 1854." I liked Lincoln's speech because it summarizes what is happening in America right before the Civil War. What kind of response did the speech receive and how did the North and the South react to it? ~Megan Tisdelle~<br />
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In Abraham Lincoln's "Speech in Peoria, Illinios, October 16, 1854" he states "my first impulse would be to free all the slaves and send them to Liberia, --- to their own native land.". Why would he want to do this? Why does he say it is their native land when the majority of slaves (if not all) at this time were in fact born in the US and have never even been to Africa? Why not free them and let them live and remain in the US? -Jenna Shevlin<br />
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Lincoln's "Speech in Peoria, Illinois October 16, 1854" brings up some interesting information about Lincoln's stance of African Americans I didn't know about. When he says, "What next? Free them, and make them politically and socially, our equals? My own feelings will not admit of this;" it surprised me. If he is against slavery but against blacks being equals, where would that leave them? Surely Lincoln realized that such circumstances would cause internal conflict for the nation as it did during the civil rights movement. Or did he? What was he expecting to happen if slavery ended? -Ally Campo<br />
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In Lincoln’s Speech in Peoria, Illinois, October 16, 1854 he talks about sending the slaves to Liberia- “to their own native land”, he then remarks that this would not be feasible because it would take a lot of money to send all the African Americans over there and then to also send them supplies to prevent them from dieing. Were most anti-slavery people that afraid of the slaves being left in America that they were willing to ship them over to Africa- when in reality the slaves did not what to go back there and it would cost a lot of money? ~Renee Rosser<br />
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In Lincoln’s speech, he mentions how slavery should be ended, but how a black man could not equal a white. In the same speech, at the end, Lincoln claims, “Near eighty years ago we began by declaring that all men are created equal; but now from that beginning we have run down to the other declaration that for some men to enslave OTHERS is a ‘sacred right of self-government.’” Obviously, Lincoln was anti-slavery, but in his claims of black men not equal to white men and then using the constitutional phrase “all men are created equal” he makes contradictory statements within his own speech. How can he make a point of slavery is wrong when white supremacy is still in his mind? Where were the slaves going to go in an anti-slavery man's mind? I think it shows how complicated an issue slavery still was even for those against it. –Rory Reese<br />
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Towards the end of Lincoln’s speech he says, “Let us return to the position our fathers gave it; and there let it rest in peace.” Did Lincoln simply want the reasoning for slavery to be one of necessity instead of sacred right so that slavery would still exist but not spread? Did he ever really plan on taking steps to end slavery in the states it was already established in? -Emily King<br />
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I had a similar thought to Ally's while reading this piece. Lincoln argues against slavery and promotes abolition yet he still does not believe that African AMericans are socially or politically equal to whites. If blacks are not equal to whites, then what? What do anti-slavery and abolitionists think will happen if slavery was to be abolished? Where would blacks stand? --Lindsay Bothwell<br />
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I may be interpreting the speech wrong, but it seems like Lincoln denounced the Kansas-Nebraska Act because he felt it only became established in the self-interest of Stephen Douglas. As said in class, Douglas did have "selfish" motives in developing the land, but I'm curious to know if any other politicians or people felt the same way Lincoln did about the development of the KS-NE Act. Towards the end of the speech, it becomes clear exactly where Lincoln stands on the political spectrum, something I found interesting. He paints himself as a Republican and in the speech, it felt like he was calling for a move to wash the dirty politics (the red in the republican robe-page263) out of Washington D.C. And by the dirty politics, I'm sure he was referring to the specific issue of slavery, but were there any other issues affecting politics? And if so, then was it the prevalence of slavery and the resulting sectional division dominating politics like today, the big issue seems to be the Iraq War? -- Meganne Lemon<br />
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Lincoln states that he would not even consider holding a slave, yet then he continues to say that as free men, he could not admit that they were equals. Was this contradictory opinion common among Americans at this time? ---Laura Peters<br />
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In Linclon's speech, he basicly states in the third full paragraph on page 261, the Southern people are the same as Northern people in that if the rolls were reversed, each side would do the same thing as the other side. I was wondering if this statement had any negative effect on the Northern view of Linclon or any positive effect on the Southern view of Linclon? I was just curious if he recieved any feedback from the public about how he compared the two sides. -Kristina Scrimshaw<br />
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== Douglass, The Constitution of the US: Is it Pro-slavery or Anti-slavery?, 1860 ==<br />
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In Douglass' pamphlet, he says "They reverse the common law usage, and presume the negro a slave unless he can prove himself free". I find it interesting that the court system re-adjusts their most well-known trait of, "innocent until proven guilty". Even in the most extreme cases where the accused obviously committed the crime, they are still considered to be "innocent until proven guilty". Why is this? I know that the South saw slaves not as people, but wouldn't it be expected that the courts (especially in the North where the slaves were "recaptured") comply with the law and try not to "convict" runaway slaves? - Alex Zelin<br />
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In response to alex, hwo could a black slave even attempt to prove himself free? He is not considered a citizen, has no rights, cannot hold any weight in court, and is a piece of property and nothign more. How exactly would a slave go about this process of proving that he was free? - Landon James<br />
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Is Douglas the most dangerous type of abolitonist? One who has seen and lived the terrors of slavery and is educated enought o make solid arguments such as these. - Landon James<br />
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In this week's readings, there were many references to the consititution and its wording and understanding. Specifically in this article when Douglass makes several direct references to it. My question, then, is if they south tried to change the constitution somehow, by passing a law or an amendment? -Dani Jones<br />
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"They reverse the common law usage, and presume the negro a slave unless he can prove himself free. I on the other hand, presume him free unless he is proved to be otherwise." They treat the matter of slavery how we now view pleadings, innocent until proven guilty. This was the big debate at the time, on how to view blacks whether they were free or slaves by nature. Lauren Hicks<br />
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In Douglas's pamplet he makes really good points and even admits that there is a slaveholding interpretation of the constitution, yet this does not mean that the constitution is in favor of slavery. My main question is what does he do with these pamplet's, does he do public readings of them, or send them somewhere. How does he promote this arguement?- Taylor Warner<br />
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Douglass's speech appears to me to be very well worded thought out. He speaks intelligently and fluently despite having pretty much taught himself to read and write. Im surprised at the fact that with many people reading his speech, mostly whites, that anyone could have still believed the notion that blacks were an inferior race. What facts did they have to go on in this belief? Douglass's speech is even more convincing then Davis's and he speaks as if he knows the issues better, yet blacks are still accused of being stupid and inhuman. I dont understand how after meeting someone like Frederick Douglass, or even reading his speech, that whites could still find truth in that belief. - Jessie Bright<br />
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Douglass states, “The Constitution forbids the passing of a bill of attainer: that is, a law entailing upon the child the disabilities and hardships imposed upon the parent. Every slave law in America might be repealed on this very ground.” I have never heard this argument before. Was this a popular argument that had any real sway? How did slave owners counter it?<br />
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When writing the Constitution, did Jefferson realize that he was leaving so many issues open ended? I mean, to an extent I'm sure he did, but if he knew that leaving issues such as slavery and equality so generalized was going to be such a problem, do you think he would have been more specific in what they wrote? ~Mary Johnston<br />
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To Mary's question: Jefferson and the framers of the Constitution left out the issue of slavery primarily because they didn't want to deal with it. They didn't want to be responsible for creating a situation no one liked and pushed it off to the future generations to deal with, sort of like what Congress is doing with Social Security--they know they should get rid of it, but they don't want to. Douglass's pamphlet brought up some interesting points. He begins with the statement, "no man is guaranteed a right of property in man" (page 263). He then goes on to say that in his opinion, the slave system should be only in the hands of the South, where slavery is a basic way of life much like the North uses child labor or has degenerative factory conditions, and then the North ought to completely get rid of it. So it seems like to me, Douglass was in fact, by promoting the continuance of slavery in the South, potentially calling for the South to secede from the Union. -- Meganne Lemon<br />
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== Jefferson Davis and the Pro-Slavery view of the Constitution, Speech before US Senate, May 1860 ==<br />
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In Jefferson Davis' "Speech before the U.S. Senate" he states three reasons why they claim protection of slavery. His first is that "it is our right"...how is having slaves a right? How does he get that from the Constitution? Another one of his reasons says "because we have entered into a compact together, which deprives each State of the power of using all the means which it might employ for its own defense". My question is defense from what? What do they need to be defended from and what does this have to do with slavery? -Jenna Shevlin<br />
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Did Jefferson Davis' "Speech before the U.S. Senate" have a direct affect on him becoming the president of the Confederacy. And also, I noticed that there are many "..." in the speech; why did they cut down the speech? Were there other sections of the speech that did not talk of the proslavery arguement? Basically I am asking, was this speech written specifically to argue that the Constitution is proslavery or were there many issues addressed? -Ally Campo<br />
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Jefferson Davis says "It was the essential requisite of the very idea of sovereignty in the State; of a compact voluntary entered into between sovereigns; and it is that equality of right under the Constitution on which we now insist..." How long did the state believe they would be able to choose between slaves and non slaves and still be "united". It is also strange how in the north there are (very few but are) free blacks with voting rights, while in the south they are slaves with no rights to anything. What made them think they could function with this double system of living. Lauren Hicks<br />
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It seems to me in this speech that Jefferson Davis implies initial sovereignty to have been necessary as the first step to establish the states but now that notion is moved to unity within a single state. I may have interpreted it differently, but if that is what he was saying, then I don't see how Davis felt the United States would ever be able to function or be powerful. To take on a mentality of every state chooses to act in whatever way it chooses with no regard for other states in the country, would result in chaos. I don't understand how one could possibly think the country could stay united, especially with the definite separation of north and south. Since he seems to be saying we have made no war, but what we're doing is right we should protect it, is this kind of a foreshadowing of the war to come? --Christen Booher<br />
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In asnwer to Jenna's question about how does he think it is his right, in the argument he proposes the idea that all other property is protected so why not slave property, that is that he considers slaves to be his property. By claiming protection under property rights he was try to create a comparison to other things they owned. From his twisted point of view slaves were not human but a commodity that he bought and therefore should be protected. At least that was how I read his argument. I think though that he just told himself this so he could sleep at night. -Melissa Brokaw<br />
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I find it so interesting when reading these documents, to see how each person can twist a document to either direction. Were they aware of the contradictions against their argument within the document and simply ignore it so they could prove their own point? Or were they both convinced they were completely right?--Kathleen Dray<br />
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I found this article very persuasive. The sentences, "We claim protection [of slavery], first, because it is our right; secondly, because it is the duty of the General Government; and thirdly, because we have entered into a compact together, which deprives each State of the power of using all the means which it might employ for its own defense. This is the general theory of the right of protection..." (p. 266). This was an excellent argument that truly represented the South in the most positive light. By describing this in a way in which the government looks bad, at a national level, for enabling the Southerners a freedom, a right, the power and trust fell into the hands of the Southern Leaders. While they put up an excellent argument, in what ways were the Northerners persuasive about their argument? Quincey Garcia<br />
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I find it interesting how he refers to slave as property and that it is their right to own slaves. This document displays how torn the states were between pro-slavery and anti-slavery because anti-slavery states would not consider owning slaves a right. - Courtney Newcomb<br />
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== Granville Blanks, letter to the Editor, 1852 ==<br />
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I understand that Blanks wanted a separate country for "his people". It would make sense, as most slaves were very willing to be free. However, they want to be able to provide for themselves, as well. To take them to a whole new country, such as Liberia, they would have difficulty adjusting. Yet Blanks feels the only way that his people will be happy is if they had their own place to live. Most of the slaves in America at that time period were American-born. They also know how to work the land and how to (albeit meagerly) provide for themselves and their families although still in bondage. Why would they want to move to a different country, all the way across the ocean? How could they afford to move over there? Also lacking in his argument is people saying they want to move to Liberia. He notes what poor conditions they live in and how they would like them to improve, yet none of them really say that they would like to move to a different country. - Alex Zelin<br />
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I noticed while reading Granville Blanks' arguments for moving to Liberia, the differences between him and other African-Americans of his time. He says that his people should move to a new country to get away from the hostilities they face in America, whereas some like Frederick Douglass who were born and lived as slaves for so long want to stay. It's interesting the differences between the two men, Blanks was born free and wants to leave the white people, while Douglass went through the horrors of slavery and wants to stay in America and work to help others. Im surprised Blanks didn't feel that taking his fellow people and moving to another country would inevitably be worse for his people. Not only do they not know anything about this place he wants to go to, but all they are doing is pretty much saying to the whites that even THEY believe they are an inferior race and should just leave. This seems to be everything that men like Frederick Douglass are fighting against. - Jessie Bright<br />
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I’m not sure how realistic it is to think that relocation of colored people will solve their problems. First of all, the practicality of such a vast relocation of people is virtually nonexistent; how would you move an incredibly large number of people and all of their belongings to another place, all together? Second, wherever they go, they will be seen as outsiders and/or invaders in someone else’s land. This presents many of the same obstacles that they deal with in America. I doubt that relocation, although perhaps good in theory, was ever a plausible concept. ~Kristen Lonsdorf<br />
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I have a feeling that most slaves, upon hearing this, would disagree with Blanks. By the time this was written, the population of slaves had already developed their own culture. They had new traditions and completely different skills than would be needed in Africa. I don't believe that most slaves would want to risk cutting the ties of tradition, personal ancestral history and possibly seperation from family members. --Laura Peters<br />
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== John Brown at Pottawatomie and Harpers Ferry ==<br />
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I don't understand why the Brown's killed all those people. He states he was against slavery and all the people he killed were pro-slavery. I don't see how this would end slavery, if anything it would anger and frighten the slaveholders to protect and defend their claims to slavery and their lands more fervently. -Nick Scott<br />
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John Brown states that he never meant to incite riots or the idea of slave revolts through his actions at Pottawatomie and Harpers Ferry. I think he is lying for fear of his own life because his actions were definitely examples of inciting riots and slave revolts. He killed people and expected no response from the South, sounds like a crazy person. Did his actions at Harpers Ferry really ignite the fuel to start the American Civil War? -Nick Scott<br />
<br />
In John Brown’s Speech he says that he did not plan to kill anyone but his raid resulted in many deaths. He also admits to wanting to try to free the slaves. He then says that he has another objection to the court and goes on to talk about the Bible and being too young “to understand that God is any respecter of persons”, and then says that he led his revolt “in behalf of His despised poor”. With all of these ranting in court, it seems to me that he would also fall under the “crazy” category that the southern planters put so many of the slaves that had tired to run away and were captured. ~Renee Rosser<br />
<br />
In the Confession by James Townsley, I found it interesting Townsley mentions Brown’s intent to kill pro-slavery men and that he refused to go along with the attacks while Brown in his speech talks of his lack of intent to kill the same men. Both have the motive of claiming innocence to lie in their confessions, so which document is more reliable to what really happened? -Rory Reese<br />
<br />
In Townsley's recollection, I find it very unlikely Townsley, Winer and Frederick Brown all merely sat back and watched these event occurring. It doesn’t make sense for the Browns to even let them do so, because it just provides people who didn’t participate to be witnesses to their murders. Also, Townsley tries far too carefully to be sure to say he has no idea where they were going, what the plan was, and each time there was a murder to say the three of them were 'left outside a short distance from the door'. To me this sounds like a man who doesn't want to share a similar death sentence. But since Brown says "I admire the truthfulness and candor of the greater portion of the witnesses who have testified in this case" I assumed there were more accounts of this case so this and the others were based on the fundamental truths of the events, but just worded in a way that made them innocent. Was Townsley a witness for this case or did he come forth with his recollection at a later time? From the way he recalls it, he makes it seem like quite a bit of time had passed. --Christen Booher<br />
<br />
Since Brown's goal to be a marter is that why he claims his only goal is to find and save slaves and did not intend to "murder, or treason, or the destruction of property, or to excite or incite slaves to rebellion, or to make insurrection"? Was this his way of guiding people who participated in future rebellion to go about it in a way that would not result in a fate similar to his or was he just trying to look good? Further, I thought it was a good point for Brown to bring up the Bible as a way to justify his mentality, since that is what the South was known for doing to justify their ways of slavery. --Christen Booher<br />
<br />
John Brown says that he never encouraged any man to cause trouble, but in the previous passage James Townsley states that Brown specifically asked him to join in. I just think that Brown is trying to make himself look much better. ~Mary Johnston<br />
<br />
I notice that John Brown says that it was never his intent to physically harm anyone. However, I can’t imagine what he thought was going to happen in response to his actions. If you steal someone’s property, as slaves were, and you threaten those who agree with slavery, as he was doing, there can be little doubt that those you steal from and threaten will lash out at you. When someone lashes out, you have little choice but to react accordingly, and thus physical harm and violence are inherently a part of what Brown was doing. Also, seeing as Brown was a militant, I seriously question the validity of the claim he never meant any harm. ~Kristen Lonsdorf<br />
<br />
I don't understand why, as Nick pointed out, John Brown denied his intentions to start riots etc... and essentially denounced why he'd done all this in the first place if he was so dead set on being a martyr. If he was so eager to be a martyr and obviously knew that it would only result in his death why would he say that he didn't really mean what he had obviously intended?--Kathleen Dray<br />
<br />
I found it interesting how John Brown used quotes from the Bible to justify his actions. He chose only quotes that support his position and completely disregarded all of the scripture that puts limitations on that. It shows that some trends in politics never die. ---Laura Peters</div>199.111.70.160https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=HIST_131--Week_10_Questions/CommentsHIST 131--Week 10 Questions/Comments2008-03-28T01:42:31Z<p>199.111.70.160: /* Eliza Farnham, A Farmer’s view of his wife, 1846 */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Henry Bellows, on the influence of “Trading Spirit” on morality, 1845 ==<br />
<br />
In Henry Bellow's document the quote, "Is it that our people are so much more miserly and earth-born than any other? No, not by any constitutional baseness; but circumstances have necessarily given this direction to the American mind," (Bellows 223). I found this interesting because it brings up the concept of nature vs. nurture. This quote ties in very well with everything else that he is saying, and this document helps to point out the beginning of an American identity shaped by circumstances. ---Laura Peters<br />
<br />
In "The Influence fo the Trading Spirit upon the Social and Moral Life of America", its interesting how they call New England the "common mother" just how the New England settlement had called England their mother. Later in the reading there is a shift in the Revolution by morals, the virtues and morals are all of merchants, what influences their mindset of merchantilism, what is their basis? Lauren Hicks<br />
<br />
This article could be published in the Post because of the huge parallels between working too much then and working too much now. It seems that even from the get-go our culture has centered around the material gain we get from hard work. It all relates back to the "American Dream" in which, if you work hard you can achieve happiness through your wealth. -Lindsay Bothwell<br />
<br />
Henry bellow says, "We are not prepared to allow that wealth is more valued in America than elsewhere, but in other countries the successful pursuit of it is necessarily confied to a few, while here it is open to all." I found this comment interesting, because when I read it, I understand it to mean that Bellow's wants an elite, a monarch to serve. As if he believes in the dominant controlling group that all of the commoners work to please. -Dani Jones<br />
<br />
== Walter Colton’s California Diary, 1849-1850 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
Why did Walter Colton discuss the prices of the first importation on page 237? Was it because these goods (flour, sugar, coffee, and liquor) were very overpriced for the time? ---Laura Peters<br />
<br />
Walter Colton's "Gold Fever" seems to contradict everything that is known about the gold rush in terms of how much was actually found. He talked a lot about how everyone was finding thousands of dollars of gold. Is this because it was the beginning of the gold rush? Most accounts of the rush say that a lot of people went west, but no one really found any gold/made enough money to survive/support their families. I just found this account much different than other accounts of those who "went west". - Alex Zelin<br />
<br />
In Walter Colton's "Gold Fever" there is mention of the "golden dream". What exactly was the golden dream? Was it widespread or did it vary depending on what region you were from? Is it comparable to the American Dream? -Jenna Shevlin<br />
<br />
The prices mentioned in the California Gold Rush Diary seem high for this time period – two dollars a pound for flour, four dollars for sugar and coffee, and twenty dollars a quart for liquor. Were the prices of these good higher because the people in the gold rush had more money to spend and the merchants knew this or was it because the goods had to come from a long ways away or a little of both? ~Renee Rosser<br />
<br />
In Walter Colton's "California Gold Rush Diary", he says that one man states(about gold) "they were some Yankee invention", What is the general feeling on the northern colonies? is it just a difference between where the gold minors moved from and their ties back home? And the point about not digging with slaves, there is no slavery in California, the diggers thought believed they were so much better than the slaves that they couldn't even dig for gold around them? Lauren Hicks<br />
<br />
“Gold Fever” reveals how whites in California did not want slaves by their sides when mining for gold. Could this be due not only to feelings of white supremacy, but also the fear of blacks becoming a threat with gaining wealth? -Emily King<br />
<br />
In Colton's diary he describes the mass migration to California and the negative effects it had on individuals and small communities. I was curious to the effects it had on a larger scale, specifically the U.S. economy and individual states? -Nick Scott<br />
<br />
In addition to Lauren Hick's question/comment: "In Walter Colton's "California Gold Rush Diary," he says that one man states (about gold) "they were some Yankee invention." What is the general feeling on the northern colonies?" I also was curious as to when the term "Yankee" was used to describe the Northerners and how come it is used throughout many of the documents in this weeks reading? I know it is derived from the Dutch word "Janke," which means pirate. The British used it to describe the Americans during the Revolutionary war, but what event caused the South to disown themselves the name of Yankees? Is it because opinions between the North and the South are reaching the hostile point and eventually war? -Nick Scott<br />
<br />
Well, the Gold Rush seems more like a cross between "Beverly Hillbillies" and "It's a Mad, Mad, Mad World" than the romanticized versions characterized by Hollywood, like in maybe a Mel Gibson movie if Mel Gibson made a movie of the Gold Rush. I think I just contradicted myself there. Anyway, I found it to be interesting. I know California came into the Union as a free state, but it never really occured to me why until now. Like several other people commented above, is it true that the white settlers didn't want slaves because of an increased likelihood of the slaves running away and eventually amassing the wealth that the white settlers digged for? -- Meganne Lemon<br />
<br />
The notion that people opposed slavery in CA because it could led to slaves running away and amassing wealth is one of those things that undermines everything you learn in high school history. It seems that we are given this idea that people strongly opposed slavery because it was wrong and they had strong abolitionist ties, which is not the case here. It makes me wonder how many people really opposed slavery for moral reasons and how many opposed it because it interferred with their interests? -Melissa Brokaw<br />
<br />
== Eliza Farnham, A Farmer’s view of his wife, 1846 ==<br />
In Eliza Farnham's conversation with a farmer, it is extreemly clear that the farmer sees women as property. Was this the view of many farmers at the time, or was he an exception? -Kristina Scrimshaw<br />
<br />
in Eliza Farnham's conversation with a farmer, I basically had the same question as Kristina. Was this common among farmers, or did some actually love their wife for who she is? And I also didnt get the "built a cage and went back for your bird" part, what does that mean??- Taylor Warner<br />
<br />
In Henry Bellows document he states in one part that "we call our country a happy country" but then later says "it is said that we are not a happy people"; isn't this a contradiction? Which one is it? It can't be both; either they are happy or they aren't. -Jenna Shevlin<br />
<br />
So I am completely ammused with the language they use in this passage. First off, their "small" talk is quite lame when compared to that which we use today. "A few words about the height of the water, the timber, and the prairies..." is not exactly the conversation that would win a spouse. And also, how did we make a new meaning out of "crapped" that once meant "planted with crops?" Just a thought... -Ally Campo<br />
<br />
In A Farmer's View of His Wife, I was puzzled by the reaction of the farmer when asked why he had a wife. The statement, "I reckon women are some like horses and oxen, the biggest can do the most work, and that's what I want one for"(pg. 229). Is this how the majority of men felt about their wives who lived on farms? Also, how did these men go about choosing their wives? Were their certain restrictions on who they could marry? Quincey Garcia<br />
<br />
In response to Taylor's question I think the cage is a metaphor for the house and bird is a metaphor for the wife to symbolize that the wife is "caged" in like a bird. At least that was how I was reading it. I also found something interesting, the farmer certainly doesn't seem to have a whole lot of respect for his wife but ELiza herself asks him if he wouldn't like to come home to someone with a "pleasant face" which also shows a lack of appreciation for the wife. It seems that she thinks a wife should be pretty and soft spoken while the man thinks that she should be helpful and strong on the farm. So I would say they both have a dated perception of a woman's place, with neither one being right.-Melissa Brokaw<br />
<br />
I feel like this particular interpretation of the view of a wife is an extreme. The farmer obviously views his wife as property and is only interested in how she could help him on the farm and around the house. However, I wonder if this is how all farmers are, or if he is an exception. It also makes me wonder if this is how all men at the time viewed their wives, or just farmers. - Courtney Newcomb<br />
<br />
== Seneca Falls Declaration of Sentiments, 1848 ==<br />
<br />
Declaration of Sentiments: I was surprised while reading this source that it claimed that 150 women and 30 men met at Seneca Falls to protest male supremacy. This was interesting to me, i assumed at this early point in history that men wouldn't have agreed with women being their equals and would have kept their feelings of women equality to themselves even if they did agree with it. What kind of men were these 30 that showed up to protest male supremacy? Were they the husbands of some of the women? What kind of reaction did this have in the public when most rich and powerful men were very anti-women rights? I would assume these men would have been shunned after such a public display of agreeing with the protest for women's rights. - Jessie Bright<br />
<br />
In the document written at Seneca Falls, I found it interesting one argument claimed that “most ignorant and degraded men – both natives and foreigners” had rights meaning women should also share these rights. When women were looking for their own equality they used a form of inequality of men to prove their point. It all just seems to be a little ironic. –Rory Reese<br />
<br />
This article made me wonder why the Seneca Falls Convention was held in the year 1848. I know the time period itself was associated with the first questioning of women's role in society, but why the specific year? Was there a key event that occured within earlier part of 1848, or late 1847, that sparked the enthusiasm for women's rights? -Ally Campo<br />
<br />
Basically I want to know how other women felt about the revolutionary arguments and resolutions that Elizabeth Cady Stanton made. Were most women in agreement? How much impact did it actually have during this time (especially considering that many men in this country today STILL don't view women as their equals)? How did this same women who fought for equal rights feel about slavery? or about the treatment of Indians? Lindsay Bothwell<br />
<br />
I noticed right off the bat that Elizabeth Cady Stanton or the gathering at Seneca Falls used rhetoric of the Revolutionary War to push for their ideals. It seems that the Seneca Falls Declaration was modeled exactly as the Declaration of Independence and in fact used a similar structure: establishing intent, enumerating "grievances", listing what the women wanted. We've talked about other minorities using revolutionary rhetoric to push for equality and how the white men generally didn't care or paid much attention. Given the history women's rights, was the Seneca Falls Declaration particularly effective in getting the ball rolling? Even today, it seems that we still aren't finished fighting for women's rights (such as abortion or the constantly-proposed Equal Rights Amendment or women in high public office), so was the initial movement for equality still effective post-1920s? --- Meganne Lemon<br />
<br />
== David Crockett Hunts Bear, 1834 ==<br />
<br />
Davie Crockett sounds like nothing more than a hick (pardon the slang) in his narrative. It's weird that he has such a glorified name, but it seems that he was nothing but a country dude who became famous. --Gracie<br />
<br />
In Davie Crockett's document, I feel like the whole thing is really exaggerated and very story-like. I was wondering if they did this just to make him seem 'masculine'? I just feel like its extremely and almost impossible for one man to kill 47 bears one month.- Taylor Warner<br />
<br />
In reference to David Crockett's narrative, it must be exaggerated. I don't understand how 1000 lbs of bear meat could be kept fresh long enough for only a few people to eat it. That seems very unrealistic. ---Laura Peters<br />
<br />
David Crockett's narrative: I also thought it was interesting the amount of bears David claimed to have killed. For one he seemed like a sadistic man whose only passion was to kill animals, proven by the fact that there is no way he could have killed 105 bears in less than a year and been able to eat them is there? It seems he did it more for sport than anything else, which i would have expected to have made his neighbors very angry, when surely there were people nearby him whose families were starving to death - and here is Davie Crockett trying to set the record for most bears killed in a month. Had i lived in that time i can imagine i would have disliked Davie Crockett, how did he become so famous/popular? - Jessie Bright<br />
<br />
I also found issues with how many bears were killed, but for a different reason. If Crockett killed 105 bears in a year, and most likely there were other hunters who killed as much to survive off of food, wouldn't the bear population become quickly extinct? There is no way that a bear population can maintain itself if tens of thousands are killed every year just for human survival. How did other people find food besides farming? Especially their protein? It seems as if finding a bear to kill for meat would become extremely hard after a few years. - Alex Zelin<br />
<br />
In the narrative of David Crockett, I also thought the whole bear slaughter of 105 in a year was excessive. It was almost as if he was a compulsive hunter...also, on page 203 at the very top, he comments on how the bear meat made the other man he was hunting for feel "as rich as a Jew." Is this comment normal for that time peroid? -Kristina Scrimshaw<br />
<br />
I’m not sure that I quite believe that Davy Crockett really killed over 100 bears in less than a year. I definitely think that he over exaggerated in his tails. I also don’t see how he became so famous in the first place by just hunting bears. Were the people that moved out to the west that incapable of taking care of themselves? ~Renee Rosser<br />
<br />
David Crockett exaggerates his hunting ability in order to prove his masculinity, but why does the community care if their congressman is a good hunter? -Emily King<br />
<br />
After reading the David Crockett story, i wondered about when dogs really began being used as hunting tools and then coined the term "man's best friend" -Dani Jones<br />
<br />
I found this narrative of David Crockett extremely fabricated. I know that it was known that quite a few of his hunting stories were fabricated, but were his stories even believable? I mean, were the amount of animals, mainly bears, that he claimed to have killed, even a realistic number based on the average number killed by his neighbors? Also, since he was the congressman for the area, did that drive him to elaborate on his hunting stories to make him appear the "invincible man"? Quincey Garcia<br />
<br />
Is it possible that Davy Crockett just exaggerated his hunting skills to become famous and well-known? Aside from that, the frontier generates an idea that the men are standoffish and mean, that they're kind of like Michael Caine and Robert Duvall's characters in "Secondhand Lions"--they sit on their front porch and shoot trespassers or things that annoy them. Davy Crockett's story here contradicts that by portraying the frontiersmen as being good neighbors and helping them when their food supply was low. Or maybe frontiersmen were nice to their neighbors and mean to everyone else... -- Meganne Lemon<br />
<br />
Even though it doesn't relate exactly to this reading, I was also curious about the comment "as rich as a Jew." Where did the wealthy Jewish stereotype come from? Were there even any Jews around in America at this time?- Jake Guralnik<br />
<br />
<br />
I feel like it's obvious that David Crockett killed that many bears in an attempt to prove his masculinity and also simply for sport. I think he simply enjoyed hunting, as many people do today. Tennessee is a pretty southern area where today we see lots of hunting as a sport. It was quoted a few times where he says someone asked him to go hunting again and he just couldnt refuse. Obviously it was not necessary for him to kill 105 bears in one year simply to survive, he did it for pleasure. - Courtney Newcomb</div>199.111.70.160https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=HIST_131--Week_10_Questions/CommentsHIST 131--Week 10 Questions/Comments2008-03-28T01:18:37Z<p>199.111.70.160: /* David Crockett Hunts Bear, 1834 */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Henry Bellows, on the influence of “Trading Spirit” on morality, 1845 ==<br />
<br />
In Henry Bellow's document the quote, "Is it that our people are so much more miserly and earth-born than any other? No, not by any constitutional baseness; but circumstances have necessarily given this direction to the American mind," (Bellows 223). I found this interesting because it brings up the concept of nature vs. nurture. This quote ties in very well with everything else that he is saying, and this document helps to point out the beginning of an American identity shaped by circumstances. ---Laura Peters<br />
<br />
In "The Influence fo the Trading Spirit upon the Social and Moral Life of America", its interesting how they call New England the "common mother" just how the New England settlement had called England their mother. Later in the reading there is a shift in the Revolution by morals, the virtues and morals are all of merchants, what influences their mindset of merchantilism, what is their basis? Lauren Hicks<br />
<br />
This article could be published in the Post because of the huge parallels between working too much then and working too much now. It seems that even from the get-go our culture has centered around the material gain we get from hard work. It all relates back to the "American Dream" in which, if you work hard you can achieve happiness through your wealth. -Lindsay Bothwell<br />
<br />
Henry bellow says, "We are not prepared to allow that wealth is more valued in America than elsewhere, but in other countries the successful pursuit of it is necessarily confied to a few, while here it is open to all." I found this comment interesting, because when I read it, I understand it to mean that Bellow's wants an elite, a monarch to serve. As if he believes in the dominant controlling group that all of the commoners work to please. -Dani Jones<br />
<br />
== Walter Colton’s California Diary, 1849-1850 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
Why did Walter Colton discuss the prices of the first importation on page 237? Was it because these goods (flour, sugar, coffee, and liquor) were very overpriced for the time? ---Laura Peters<br />
<br />
Walter Colton's "Gold Fever" seems to contradict everything that is known about the gold rush in terms of how much was actually found. He talked a lot about how everyone was finding thousands of dollars of gold. Is this because it was the beginning of the gold rush? Most accounts of the rush say that a lot of people went west, but no one really found any gold/made enough money to survive/support their families. I just found this account much different than other accounts of those who "went west". - Alex Zelin<br />
<br />
In Walter Colton's "Gold Fever" there is mention of the "golden dream". What exactly was the golden dream? Was it widespread or did it vary depending on what region you were from? Is it comparable to the American Dream? -Jenna Shevlin<br />
<br />
The prices mentioned in the California Gold Rush Diary seem high for this time period – two dollars a pound for flour, four dollars for sugar and coffee, and twenty dollars a quart for liquor. Were the prices of these good higher because the people in the gold rush had more money to spend and the merchants knew this or was it because the goods had to come from a long ways away or a little of both? ~Renee Rosser<br />
<br />
In Walter Colton's "California Gold Rush Diary", he says that one man states(about gold) "they were some Yankee invention", What is the general feeling on the northern colonies? is it just a difference between where the gold minors moved from and their ties back home? And the point about not digging with slaves, there is no slavery in California, the diggers thought believed they were so much better than the slaves that they couldn't even dig for gold around them? Lauren Hicks<br />
<br />
“Gold Fever” reveals how whites in California did not want slaves by their sides when mining for gold. Could this be due not only to feelings of white supremacy, but also the fear of blacks becoming a threat with gaining wealth? -Emily King<br />
<br />
In Colton's diary he describes the mass migration to California and the negative effects it had on individuals and small communities. I was curious to the effects it had on a larger scale, specifically the U.S. economy and individual states? -Nick Scott<br />
<br />
In addition to Lauren Hick's question/comment: "In Walter Colton's "California Gold Rush Diary," he says that one man states (about gold) "they were some Yankee invention." What is the general feeling on the northern colonies?" I also was curious as to when the term "Yankee" was used to describe the Northerners and how come it is used throughout many of the documents in this weeks reading? I know it is derived from the Dutch word "Janke," which means pirate. The British used it to describe the Americans during the Revolutionary war, but what event caused the South to disown themselves the name of Yankees? Is it because opinions between the North and the South are reaching the hostile point and eventually war? -Nick Scott<br />
<br />
Well, the Gold Rush seems more like a cross between "Beverly Hillbillies" and "It's a Mad, Mad, Mad World" than the romanticized versions characterized by Hollywood, like in maybe a Mel Gibson movie if Mel Gibson made a movie of the Gold Rush. I think I just contradicted myself there. Anyway, I found it to be interesting. I know California came into the Union as a free state, but it never really occured to me why until now. Like several other people commented above, is it true that the white settlers didn't want slaves because of an increased likelihood of the slaves running away and eventually amassing the wealth that the white settlers digged for? -- Meganne Lemon<br />
<br />
== Eliza Farnham, A Farmer’s view of his wife, 1846 ==<br />
In Eliza Farnham's conversation with a farmer, it is extreemly clear that the farmer sees women as property. Was this the view of many farmers at the time, or was he an exception? -Kristina Scrimshaw<br />
<br />
in Eliza Farnham's conversation with a farmer, I basically had the same question as Kristina. Was this common among farmers, or did some actually love their wife for who she is? And I also didnt get the "built a cage and went back for your bird" part, what does that mean??- Taylor Warner<br />
<br />
In Henry Bellows document he states in one part that "we call our country a happy country" but then later says "it is said that we are not a happy people"; isn't this a contradiction? Which one is it? It can't be both; either they are happy or they aren't. -Jenna Shevlin<br />
<br />
So I am completely ammused with the language they use in this passage. First off, their "small" talk is quite lame when compared to that which we use today. "A few words about the height of the water, the timber, and the prairies..." is not exactly the conversation that would win a spouse. And also, how did we make a new meaning out of "crapped" that once meant "planted with crops?" Just a thought... -Ally Campo<br />
<br />
In A Farmer's View of His Wife, I was puzzled by the reaction of the farmer when asked why he had a wife. The statement, "I reckon women are some like horses and oxen, the biggest can do the most work, and that's what I want one for"(pg. 229). Is this how the majority of men felt about their wives who lived on farms? Also, how did these men go about choosing their wives? Were their certain restrictions on who they could marry? Quincey Garcia<br />
<br />
== Seneca Falls Declaration of Sentiments, 1848 ==<br />
<br />
Declaration of Sentiments: I was surprised while reading this source that it claimed that 150 women and 30 men met at Seneca Falls to protest male supremacy. This was interesting to me, i assumed at this early point in history that men wouldn't have agreed with women being their equals and would have kept their feelings of women equality to themselves even if they did agree with it. What kind of men were these 30 that showed up to protest male supremacy? Were they the husbands of some of the women? What kind of reaction did this have in the public when most rich and powerful men were very anti-women rights? I would assume these men would have been shunned after such a public display of agreeing with the protest for women's rights. - Jessie Bright<br />
<br />
In the document written at Seneca Falls, I found it interesting one argument claimed that “most ignorant and degraded men – both natives and foreigners” had rights meaning women should also share these rights. When women were looking for their own equality they used a form of inequality of men to prove their point. It all just seems to be a little ironic. –Rory Reese<br />
<br />
This article made me wonder why the Seneca Falls Convention was held in the year 1848. I know the time period itself was associated with the first questioning of women's role in society, but why the specific year? Was there a key event that occured within earlier part of 1848, or late 1847, that sparked the enthusiasm for women's rights? -Ally Campo<br />
<br />
Basically I want to know how other women felt about the revolutionary arguments and resolutions that Elizabeth Cady Stanton made. Were most women in agreement? How much impact did it actually have during this time (especially considering that many men in this country today STILL don't view women as their equals)? How did this same women who fought for equal rights feel about slavery? or about the treatment of Indians? Lindsay Bothwell<br />
<br />
I noticed right off the bat that Elizabeth Cady Stanton or the gathering at Seneca Falls used rhetoric of the Revolutionary War to push for their ideals. It seems that the Seneca Falls Declaration was modeled exactly as the Declaration of Independence and in fact used a similar structure: establishing intent, enumerating "grievances", listing what the women wanted. We've talked about other minorities using revolutionary rhetoric to push for equality and how the white men generally didn't care or paid much attention. Given the history women's rights, was the Seneca Falls Declaration particularly effective in getting the ball rolling? Even today, it seems that we still aren't finished fighting for women's rights (such as abortion or the constantly-proposed Equal Rights Amendment or women in high public office), so was the initial movement for equality still effective post-1920s? --- Meganne Lemon<br />
<br />
== David Crockett Hunts Bear, 1834 ==<br />
<br />
Davie Crockett sounds like nothing more than a hick (pardon the slang) in his narrative. It's weird that he has such a glorified name, but it seems that he was nothing but a country dude who became famous. --Gracie<br />
<br />
In Davie Crockett's document, I feel like the whole thing is really exaggerated and very story-like. I was wondering if they did this just to make him seem 'masculine'? I just feel like its extremely and almost impossible for one man to kill 47 bears one month.- Taylor Warner<br />
<br />
In reference to David Crockett's narrative, it must be exaggerated. I don't understand how 1000 lbs of bear meat could be kept fresh long enough for only a few people to eat it. That seems very unrealistic. ---Laura Peters<br />
<br />
David Crockett's narrative: I also thought it was interesting the amount of bears David claimed to have killed. For one he seemed like a sadistic man whose only passion was to kill animals, proven by the fact that there is no way he could have killed 105 bears in less than a year and been able to eat them is there? It seems he did it more for sport than anything else, which i would have expected to have made his neighbors very angry, when surely there were people nearby him whose families were starving to death - and here is Davie Crockett trying to set the record for most bears killed in a month. Had i lived in that time i can imagine i would have disliked Davie Crockett, how did he become so famous/popular? - Jessie Bright<br />
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I also found issues with how many bears were killed, but for a different reason. If Crockett killed 105 bears in a year, and most likely there were other hunters who killed as much to survive off of food, wouldn't the bear population become quickly extinct? There is no way that a bear population can maintain itself if tens of thousands are killed every year just for human survival. How did other people find food besides farming? Especially their protein? It seems as if finding a bear to kill for meat would become extremely hard after a few years. - Alex Zelin<br />
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In the narrative of David Crockett, I also thought the whole bear slaughter of 105 in a year was excessive. It was almost as if he was a compulsive hunter...also, on page 203 at the very top, he comments on how the bear meat made the other man he was hunting for feel "as rich as a Jew." Is this comment normal for that time peroid? -Kristina Scrimshaw<br />
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I’m not sure that I quite believe that Davy Crockett really killed over 100 bears in less than a year. I definitely think that he over exaggerated in his tails. I also don’t see how he became so famous in the first place by just hunting bears. Were the people that moved out to the west that incapable of taking care of themselves? ~Renee Rosser<br />
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David Crockett exaggerates his hunting ability in order to prove his masculinity, but why does the community care if their congressman is a good hunter? -Emily King<br />
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After reading the David Crockett story, i wondered about when dogs really began being used as hunting tools and then coined the term "man's best friend" -Dani Jones<br />
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I found this narrative of David Crockett extremely fabricated. I know that it was known that quite a few of his hunting stories were fabricated, but were his stories even believable? I mean, were the amount of animals, mainly bears, that he claimed to have killed, even a realistic number based on the average number killed by his neighbors? Also, since he was the congressman for the area, did that drive him to elaborate on his hunting stories to make him appear the "invincible man"? Quincey Garcia<br />
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Is it possible that Davy Crockett just exaggerated his hunting skills to become famous and well-known? Aside from that, the frontier generates an idea that the men are standoffish and mean, that they're kind of like Michael Caine and Robert Duvall's characters in "Secondhand Lions"--they sit on their front porch and shoot trespassers or things that annoy them. Davy Crockett's story here contradicts that by portraying the frontiersmen as being good neighbors and helping them when their food supply was low. Or maybe frontiersmen were nice to their neighbors and mean to everyone else... -- Meganne Lemon<br />
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Even though it doesn't relate exactly to this reading, I was also curious about the comment "as rich as a Jew." Where did the wealthy Jewish stereotype come from? Were there even any Jews around in America at this time?- Jake Guralnik<br />
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I feel like it's obvious that David Crockett killed that many bears in an attempt to prove his masculinity and also simply for sport. I think he simply enjoyed hunting, as many people do today. Tennessee is a pretty southern area where today we see lots of hunting as a sport. It was quoted a few times where he says someone asked him to go hunting again and he just couldnt refuse. Obviously it was not necessary for him to kill 105 bears in one year simply to survive, he did it for pleasure. - Courtney Newcomb</div>199.111.70.160https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=HIST_131--Week_9_Questions/CommentsHIST 131--Week 9 Questions/Comments2008-03-21T01:37:28Z<p>199.111.70.160: /* Cherokees Debate Removal, John Ross and Elias Boudinot, 1836-1837 */</p>
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<div>== Peter Wendover, July 4th, 1806, A Jeffersonian Sailmaker ==<br />
A Jeffersonian Sailmaker's Fourth of July Address - While reading this source i was noticing the somewhat hypocritical this man's stance was on "liberty". He kept saying things like "not inured to the tactics of war, untaught in the practice of barbarity, not accustomed to the clang of arms" to describe his fellow countrymen, apparently forgetting the way they treated the Native Americans and the African Americans! He also said they should "do to others as we wish them to do unto us"...did the colonists actually not realize the hypocrisy in their so called "morals"? He was so blatantly saying how great America was for letting everyone experience liberty and freedom, obviously forgetting that they weren't actually doing that at all! - Jessie Bright<br />
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First of all, in "A Jeffersonian Sailmaker's Fourth of July Address" what are they talking about when they say "COLUMBIA IS FREE..."? Are they referring to D.C. because at this point the capital had been moved there? And also, it seems ironic how he uses the word slavery when he says, "death is terror, but slavery is death" because that is what they are putting African Americans through. If they realize how horrible it is to feel like a slave, then why would they have others be in that role? <br />
-Ally Campo <br />
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In "A Jeffersonian Sailmaker's Fourth of July Address" why is Columbia a forefront of the article? I'm not really seeing the connection between the Revolution and Columbia? Why was Columbia even noteworthy at the time this was written? I don't see how Columbia has anything to do with the Revolution but maybe I'm just missing the point. -Jenna Shevlin<br />
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As another student commented, while reading "A Jeffersonian Sailmaker's Fourth of July Address," I was surprised by how hypocritical it was. Wendover talks about the "Emancipation of a Nation," "Equal Rights," and "Rights of Man," but all of these apply solely to white males. It just amazes me how people could proclaim these republican ideals and yet refuse to apply them to African Americans and Native Americans. -Iris Onks<br />
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In "A Jeffersonian Sailmaker's Fourth of July Address", I found it interesting how Wendover says, “That republican principles and true patriotism, can only be promoted by the practice of the moral virtues and conscious integrity.” If the people during this time believed republican principles and moral virtue were intertwined, were the personal lives of politicians being criticized? If so, was it anywhere close to what politicians go through today? Emily King<br />
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Wendover states, "...it was left for Americans to convince the potentates of Europe, that the end of all just governemnts was the happiness of the governed," (184). It seems to me that he is describing anarchy here, yet he is in favor of American governmment policies and the constitution. How was this contradiction formed? ---Laura Peters<br />
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== James Forten protests 1813 PA Law ==<br />
Letters from a Man of Colour... - In this source i noticed how he said that many free black men had property that they earned upon becoming free. I was surprised that this was the case, i always assumed that free black men were still very discriminated against and would never have been able to aquire land after being liberated, he made it seem that many free slaves were well off. I'm sure this isn't the case? Did any free black men or women ever experience a comfortable lifestyle after being freed? - Jessie Bright<br />
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In James Forten's Protest against Pennsylvania, I was wondering if his protest had any effect whatsoever on the Pennsylvania law? I feel like even though he is a wealthy free black, he really has no say because he is black. He makes some excellent and true statements, for example punishing a guilty black man with slavery will not make him better and that the Constitution of Penn said " all men are born equally", but I feel like Penn would just ignore him. Is this true or is part of the reason this law did not get passed because of black men protesting?- Taylor Warner<br />
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In “Letters from a Man of Colour”, James Forten writes how the state of Pennsylvania is a place where “African[s] have justly boasted of rational liberty and the protection of the laws.” Was this a state where free black men actually had more freedom or is this just a persuasive argument Forten is attempting to use to sway the senate? Were these liberties and protection of laws really something for free black men to boast about? –Rory Reese<br />
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I think it is interesting that both African-Americans and Native Americans used the jargon of the American Revolution when trying to get their own rights and freedoms. It makes me wonder if this lead to any guilty feelings on the parts of whites? Having their words and arguments used against them seems to me a to be a rather impactful way of getting the message across yet in most cases it doesn't seem to work. Is there anything to suggest that people found this equally compelling? -Melissa Brokaw<br />
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I found James Forten's Letters to be very provocative. While clearly showing how African Americans felt like they were a part of the new country, it still showed how jilted they were by things like "all men being created equal" like in the Declaration of Independence, yet still the African Americans are being treated like something not worthy of being human. What I found most interesting was how James Forten started out intending to lecture the Senate on the bill, to encourage emancipation, yet by the end of the letter, it seemed like he was shaming the senators for even thinking about this particular course of action. While the bill eventually failed and did not become an established law, it would be interesting to know why the Senators chose against passing it--maybe Forten really did shame them into thinking otherwise... -- Meganne Lemon<br />
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Where were these letters by Forten published? Were they only for the eyes of white men controling legal power in Pennsylcania, or were they viewed by many in the general public? Also, was James Forten one of a kind, being a wealthy free born African American in Pennyslvania, or were there many others like him?--Helen Dinndorf<br />
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Although I find James Forten’s proclamations that all men are created equal and his other points excerpted from the Declaration of Independence and Pennsylvania Constitution to be persuasive, I feel the whites of this time would not. At this time, don’t many whites still maintain the mentality that blacks are sub-human and therefore don’t deserve the same rights. I realize significant changes have been made regarding slaves, but when whites have for so long viewed blacks in one way, it is hard to adjust this frame of mind, especially so dramatically as to call them their equals. One tactic I feel was probably good for Forten’s argument was when he said “we sincerely hope, the white men, whom we should look upon as our protectors…” This could make them look upon blacks as something weak and below them, like a child who is pleading for their protection, rather than an equal who is there to challenge them and the laws they wish to implement. --Christen Booher<br />
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On pages 186-187, Forten speaks of how the authors of the constitution saw black men as equal, and that they realized they could not enslave black men because of lack of authority. Did Forten not critically look at the men behind the constitution and see that many supporters of the constitution, especially Thomas Jefferson, owned slaves. Also, if Forten's perception were true, why wouldn't the forefathers of America not outlaw slavery in the constitution? ---Laura Peters<br />
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== TJ’s Private & Public Indian Policy as seen in a Letter to Gov. Wm. Henry Harrison, 1803 & a speech to Native Americans ambassadors in 1806 ==<br />
In his address to the Mandans, why would Jefferson put their relationship in the context of father and child? I would assume that since they just came out of a war where they were fighting to get out of a relationship like that, that in turn, the would be wary to utilize the same method? -Dani Jones<br />
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After our discussion in class today about Jefferson's conflicting public v. private attitudes on slavery and his inability to take action one way or the other is further reiterated in comparing his private letter to Governor Harrison with his public address to the People of the Mandan Nation. In his private letter Jefferson speaks in a conniving manner and it sounds as if his plan to to trick the Indians into getting them to do what he wants. However, in his public address Jefferson speaks of the friendship between the government and the Mandan nation. Throughout his address Jefferson subtly asserts his superiority over the Indians by referring to them as his "children" and as his "red brethren". I know Jefferson was conflicted about emancipation but what were his feelings toward Native Americans? Also, we talked about how it was fairly common for slave owners to father children from their slaves so I was wondering if slave owners ever public or even privately acknowledged their sons or daughters? ---Lindsay Bothwell<br />
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Thomas Jefferson is a backstabbing hypocrite. At least that's what I gather from yesterday's discussion on his view of slavery and then reading about his view on Native Americans. However, I understand that this may be because he realizes the importance of promoting a new, united country and that he, as only the third president, may have felt a responsibility to his citizens and while privately believing otherwise, publicly agreed with the general population. (Things certainly have come a long way, haven't they?) I found it interesting how Jefferson called the Native Americans his "red" children, likening their relationship to father and son. I suppose it may have been so that the Indians could feel like they are included under the protection of the president, and could maybe make Jefferson and the government more likable. But then again, privately, it seems like Jefferson would rather the Indians all just go live on another continent. -- Meganne Lemon<br />
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Jefferson’s contrasting private and public Indian policy is shocking. He acts like he wants to keep the Indians completely in the dark while Americans take their land from them. Why did Jefferson think this was the best way to get the Indians land versus forcefully taking it? Did Americans still fear the Indians enough to prevent a war? -Emily King<br />
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In this document, Jefferson states, "When they withdraw themselves to the culture of a small piece of land, they will perceive how useless to them are their extensive forests..." (189). Was Jefferson, who is usually held in high regards as brilliant, really so ignorant to think that Indians would be content contained on a small piece of land, while their forests, in a sense, their livelihood, are being settled by Americans? ---Laura Peters<br />
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== Meriwether Lewis Journal, 1805 ==<br />
The Journals of the Lewis and Clark Expedition first mentions women being treated “with little rispect, and compel them to perform every species of drudgery.” Three days later, they wrote how women are seen as sacred in their society. Why is there this discrepancy within this short time period? Is there a possibility their first encounters and opinions were proven to be misinterpreted or are they describing two different groups of Indians? –Rory Reese<br />
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My question is a sort of spin off from Rory's. How did Sacajawea affect this rather poor opinion of females reflected in the beginning of their journey. It's well known that without her, the trip probably would have failed, or at least been much more difficult. What first influenced them to have such a poor opinion to start with? --Kathleen Dray<br />
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== Cherokees Debate Removal, John Ross and Elias Boudinot, 1836-1837 ==<br />
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In the Reply to John Ross 1837, Elias Boudinot talks about the whites intermarrying, did they have the same views as their children as they did slave children with white fathers, did the blood percentage give them a better stance in society? Lauren Hicks<br />
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This was really interesting to me because it shows on a larger scale the impact of American Indian policy. Removal alone was a big enough impact on the Cherokees but also to look a little closer we see how removal not only tore them from their home but tore them apart as a nation. We see two men here who have different views one advocating resisting removal as a way to save their culture and another advocating removal as the means to saving the people and culture. The depth of damage inflicted on Native Americans seems to only increase with closer examination.-Melissa Brokaw<br />
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I agree with Melissa in that this document showed the impact of the removal of the Indians on a larger scale that we have not yet been able to see. It seems a little ironic that people who want freedom are so quick to push the Native Americans off their land. - Courtney Newcomb<br />
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== Madison Hemings Recalls Life as Jefferson's Enslaved Son, 1873 ==<br />
"Madison Hemings Recalls Life as Thomas Jefferson's Enslaved Son" I was curious to how prevalent white slave owners fornicated with slaves? In Jefferson's situation there must of been certain individuals who knew of his relationship with Sally Hemings. How did they feel about it and what were the repercussions, if any? Also, how did his wife feel about this, if she knew at all? At the end of the document one of the questions states, how credible is Madison's testimony? I was curious as to others thoughts on this subject. --Nick Scott--<br />
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To comment on Nick's comment above, I am not sure, but I think that Martha, Jefferson's wife had died. And remember in class today, Dr. McClurken said that it was very normal for slave owners to have relationships with their slaves. But I was also wondering, since he had so much power and was 'famous', was it then looked down upon? Also to try to answer your last question, I see both ways of it being credible and not. Credible because his story does actually fit to other research and I wouldn't doubt him to know a little of his family history. I can also see how its not credible because he could be playing this up, just to make Jefferson have a bad reputation, because there is almost no reason to believe it was not Jefferson.- Taylor Warner<br />
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I found "Madison Hamings Recalls Life..." to be really interesting. Everything seems different when stated in the perspective of a slave's relationship with his family. I'm curious of what would have happened if Martha didn't die for another 5+ years. Would Jefferson have had relations with Sally Hemings anyways? Or would the secret have been harder to keep since his wife would have been still alive? -Ally Campo <br />
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In Madisons Hemings Recalls Life as Thomas Jefferson's Enslaved Son, He says Thomas Jefferson had his public life and his private life,how much did the Hemings children know about his public role in the government and did they know his stances on slavery and how he never wanted to make a statement against it. Lauren Hicks<br />
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Madison Hemings’ Interview was interesting to read since we had just discussed Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings in class. Madison seems to remember Jefferson as a nice person. He says that he treated the entire Hemmings family well and they were allowed to stay around the “great house” and not have to do heavy work, while most of the other slaves were out in the fields. He also says that Jefferson has a good temperament and is even seen among the slave mechanics, but that he was not interested in plantation work so he left that to the stewards and overseers. I feel like Hemings could have also had a partial view of Jefferson because it seems that he never really interacted with the other slaves who were working in the fields. ~Renee Rosser<br />
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In the Interview with Madison Hemings, I found it interesting how well he reported him and his family being treated. All the memebers of his family just had small daily chores to do that did not require a lot of labor. It even sounded like they had a lot of free time once they finished their chores. We talked about the privledged position that the Hemings held in Jefferson's household during class, but I still thought they would have had a heavier workload. So, it surprised me to see how exceptionally the Hemings really were treated according to this interview. -Iris Onks<br />
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In Madison Heming's recollection he says that his brother Beverly married a white woman and his sister Harriet married a white man. Even if Beverly and Harriet could pull off being white because of their light skin, didn't the families of their spouses question their background or lack there of? Would they have made up stories to protect their true identity from being revealed? --Helen Dinndorf<br />
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After reading this, I was kind of impressed just how secret political figures could keep their lives. Even now, as in class, we can only speculate (though I'm fairly positive the Hemings were Jerfferson's children) as to whether or not Jefferson actually fathered Heming's children. His relationship could have easily been blown open as a smear campaign, servants could have told someone, and even when the supposed multiple children of Jefferson's came forward there still was a great amount of secrecy. How was he able to maintain such secrecy?-- Kathleen Dray<br />
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== Calloway Readings ==<br />
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'''Joseph Brant "Indian vs. White Civilization, 1789'''<br><br />
Joseph Brant "Indian vs. White Civilization, 1789. This document reminded me of a really good HBO documentary movie I saw a couple of years ago, "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee." The experiences of Joseph Brant were similar to the main character in the movie. I know the setting for the movie was later in the 19th century, but if anyone has seen this movie, do they know if it is historically accurate to some extent? If it is I highly recommend the movie to get a visualization of what was occurring during this time period. --Nick Scott--<br />
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After reading Joseph Brant's response to the question of Indian vs. White Civilization, i began thinking about how the different influences of the society made them no uniquely different. The indian society never had the mentatlity of individuality over the group while, the american society came over with that society. My question is then, after the colonists settled, was there an increase in crime and "individual-minded" behavior among the native american societies? Or did they always did they always find the things that the colonists to be innately evil?- Dani Jones<br />
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In the comparison of Indians vs. White Civilizations by Joseph Brant, he says that he would rather die of Indian torture than to live a year in a colonist prison. He compares the two civilizations saying that there are not many villains and no robberies among the Indians and their crimes are impartially punished by judges. The Whites have horrible prisons that they keep people in but most of the people are in jail for debt which cannot be repaid if they are not working. He also talks about the Whites calling themselves Christians, but then treating their own people so badly. I think this passage is important because it shows a man who has experienced both cultures and points out that they Indians may not be as savage as the Whites make them out to be. ~Renee Rosser<br />
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'''Alexander McGillivray's letter'''<br><br />
Several small details caught my eye when reading Alexander McGillivray's letter. First of all in the introduction before the letter it mentioned that it was very common for Scottish and English traders to many Indian women but wouldn't there be a language barrier? Did this not matter and/or present a problem? Second why did he refer to the King of Spain as "his Most Catholic Majesty"? Lastly, where is the Extensive Territory? Again these are small details but sometimes the small details make the most difference. -Jenna Shevlin</div>199.111.70.160https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=HIST_131--Week_8_Questions/CommentsHIST 131--Week 8 Questions/Comments2008-03-14T04:15:57Z<p>199.111.70.160: /* George Washington’s “Farewell Address to the People of the United States,” 1796 */</p>
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<div>== Benjamin Rush, "Thoughts upon the Mode of Education Proper in a Republic," 1786 ==<br />
"Thoughts Upon the Mode of Education Proper in a Republic" -- I thought Rush's position on education was interesting. His essay did come off, as someone menitoned earlier, as a form of propaganda used to sway parents into enrolling their children in school. As discussed in class, it wasn't until after the American Revolution when the notion of public education began. Was Benjamin Rush advocating public education controlled by Congress or the government to ensure a uniform people? It seems that according to his ideas as put forth in his essay he would be a major supporter of public education. Rush also barely touches upon the subject of women in education. In the brief paragraph dedicated to education women, he seems to advocate the republican mother ideals. I realize that times are different now--some studies show that there are more women in college than men nationwide and campuses have sort of leveled out as far as gender differences are--but surely educating women, especially in the ideas of a republican country, deserved more thought than a simple paragraph at the end of an essay, which to me seemed more of an afterthought than a part of the actual essay. -- Meganne Lemon<br />
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In "Thoughts upon the Mode of Education Proper in a Republic" I found it interesting that the writer of this passage states that the only useful foundation for a republican government is in a religion thats main focus is that of Jesus Christ. Later on he mentions "a Chirstian cannot fail of being a republican, for every precept of the Gospel inculcates those degrees of humility, self-denial, and brotherly kindness..." And just as people thought about the different parties back when this was written so do people in the 20th century and beyond think about religion and politics, just now there is a fight betweeen whether or not to keep church and state seperate but the different political parties can be thought of being composed of generally more religious people in the republican side.-Paul Carter<br />
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In Benjamin Rush's Thoughts on Education it mentioned education specifically in the state of Pennsylvania, is this where greater education systems started? Does this have anything to do with why that state has such a great education system now? Also, the article talks about religion being a foundation of education. Does this ultimately contribute to the seperation of church and state? And why doesn't this influence education today?--Megan Malecha<br />
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I find it very interesting that in Benjamin Rush's Thoughts upon the Mode of Education, he states that in order to create a useful and established education the republic should lay the foundation in religion. He even captailizes the word, placing more emphasize. How far have we come, or fallen, that now teachers in public schools can not mention religion, without getting threats. -Dani Jones<br />
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I thought that Benjamin Rush’s proposal was very interesting because he talks about the importance of religion. I understand why Christianity became the religion of America, but why was there no “Church of America” as there was a Church of England? Were there just too many branches of Christianity present during this time for only one to be agreed on? -Emily King<br />
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In Benjamin Rush's "Thoughts upon the Mode if Education Proper in a Republic, 1786" I found myself wondering time and time again what any of what he was talking about had to do with education. He goes on and on about religion and while that's all fine and well he didn't tie it to education at all. So my question is what does anything that Rush was talking about have to do with education?? -Jenna Shevlin<br />
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Another question I had when reading Rush's speech/thoughts is that while he says he wants to eliminate prejudices doesn't what he says create more prejudices? He tells them what he doesn't want the country's youth to do but then he also goes on to propose solutions that seem to create even more. Shouldn't he be making suggestions that work to eliminate these thoughts instead of just providing more fuel for the fire?? -Jenna Shevlin<br />
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I found "Thoughts upon the Mode of Education Proper in a Republic, 1786" really interesting. I shows how different the education system has become. For one thing there isn't the idea that religion really has a place in the school system, whereas Benjamin Rush seems to think that a Christian backed education is the best route. He even thought, "that I had rather see the opinions of Confucious or Mohammed inculcated upon our youth than see them grow up wholly devoid of a system of religious principles." For him some of any religion was much preferred to no religion at all. There are very different movements in public education today. Also, he wanted students to have a "SUPREME REGARD FOR THEIR COUNTRY." He also continues to advocate this extreme devotion and complete acceptance of America. Today there seems to be more of a movement of looking at negatives of people and actions instead of glorifying America. Like Thomas Jefferson for example, the focus seems to often on Sally Hemmings and his possible children. Is there a better way to look at this? Doesn't it seem better to look at both the negatives and the positives so instead of blindly glorifying the nation or condemning it, it seems better to combine the two approaches to try and get a better picture.--Melissa Brokaw<br />
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I have a few short comments and questions about a couple of the articles. First, I found that while reading Benjamin Rush's ''Thoughts upon the Mode of Education''....that it sounded an awful lot like propaganda. It seems as though the point of education was to ensure that boys were raised to put their country before all else and to dedicate themselves to the servitude of America and to the Constitution. Did everyone at this time agree that education should center around such strong convictions toward patriotism? Did both federalists and anti-federalists support this strong foundation of patriotism? Why did Rush so vehemently argue that "man is naturally an ungovernable animal"? Was this a common belief? -- Lindsay Bothwell<br />
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In Benjamin Rush’s Thoughts, I found it interesting Rush wanted to use education to produce people with uniform thoughts. His argument claimed, “Our schools of learning, by producing general and uniform system of education, will render the mass of the people more homogeneous and thereby fit them more easily for uniform and peaceable government.” Now in a country defined by its different perspectives and individualities it seems strange for Rush to focus on one uniform thought for all. Did others share his idea of a uniform people? –Rory Reese<br />
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The feeling I get from Benjamin Rush's thoughts is that he supported educating women. He wanted to keep them separate, but he said that they should be taught the 'usual branches of female education' but that they should also be intructed in liberty and governent so they could pass these on to their children. Not many men of this time supported education for women and I thought it was interesting that Rush did. -Mary Johnston<br />
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I really liked the connection that Rush makes, whether or not it was intentional or not, between the chains of slavery that have bound thousands of Africans and the chains that have bound science and "progressive nature." I think that this is a very symbolic measure and I wonder if Rush did this on purpose? Was he a supporter of emancipation? ---Virginia Stratton<br />
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I thought it was interesting how Benjamin Rush fought so hard to make Christianity the backbone of education and later people fought so hard to make and keep them completely separate. I also thought that it was interesting how Rush said that various virtues would be taught to students such as "he must be taught to love his fellow creatures in every part of the world, but he must cherish with a more intense and peculiar affection the citizens on Pennsylvania and the United States." I understand putting your country first, but it seems to me to be a little extreme and almost hypocritical to teach children to love everyone, but not as much as Americans. -Mary Johnston<br />
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== Richard Allen Founds the AME Church, 1833 ==<br />
In Richard Allen's Life, Experience, and Gospel Labours I thought it was very interesting how his religion influenced his positive attitude and Im sure influencial on many African Americans at the time. I was wondering if more African Americans followed him after this and created more African American churches. I feel like it wasnt common for slave holders to be so kind and encouraging to their slaves independence. Is the reason for his success due mostly to his relationship with his owner?- Taylor Warner<br />
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In "Richard Allen Founds the First African Methodist Church" the attitude towards slaves has definitely changed. The description of life with his owner appears fairly easy and enjoyable, later when his master cannot afford to keep him, Allen is asked to buy his freedom. Allen goes to work, what was the general feeling on paying blacks at this time? There doesn't seem to be much fear of the Africans having religion at this point in time, it just cannot be in the same church as the whites. When did the fear of the slaves having equality die down? Lauren Hicks<br />
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In Richard Allen Founds the First African Methodist Church, it shows the blacks are gradually given more freedom, it is also shown that Allen's master allows him and his sisters to attend meetings once a week for church. one can see that Allen has a strong fatih in religion in that it develops his opptimistic views about everything. However, i find it to be very interesting that blacks are able to set up a church this fast when slavery is still practiced. --Eun Yi<br />
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I also thought it was interesting that Richard and his owner had such a family-like relationship. Was this a common attitude after the war between slaves and masters? Did it contribute to the attitude that northern colonists had when they started to not allow slavery? --Jessie Bright<br />
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What first inspired Richard Allen to have that cathartic moment when he discovered God? He said that it was at least in his late twenties in the passage where he describes first being "awakened", " Until I was upwards of twenty years of age, during which time I was awakened and brought to see myself.... without the mercy of God" His mom found God, but nowhere in the passage does he describe his finding of God.--Kathleen Dray<br />
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I found it very, very interesting that Allen had such a good and strong relationship with his master. It is very rare that one hears about a good relationship between slave and master, and I just wonder how much of a rarity it was? ---Virginia Stratton<br />
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== James Madison, Federalist #10, 1787 ==<br />
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Madison's "Federalist #10" left me pretty confused because of the way it was worded. He says, "...which were echoed from one end of the continent to the other," but does he actually mean the literal words? When he refers to the continent does he just mean the United States or does he actually mean all the US and whatever is west of it, like the territories and Indian lands?<br />
-Ally Campo<br />
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== Mercy Otis Warren, Observations on the New Constitution, 1788 ==<br />
I found it interesting Marty Otis Warren in 1788 wrote an educational opposition to the constitution. In this time women weren’t equals to men and she is noted as a “brilliant and exceptionally well educated women.” Was her argument read and noted in this time? Was she taken seriously as an educated woman or is this document just being noted now for its well written arguments against the Constitution? –Rory Reese<br />
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“Observations on the New Constitution” by Mercy Otis Warren was a very interesting excerpt in my opinion. It immediately reminded me of the letters of Abigail Adams (to her husband) in that they both pose an intriguing womanly view on the current political issues of their time. Both Mercy and Abigail were brave women to be willing to put themselves out there and give their opinions, since it was such taboo for women to do so. In the introduction it mentions that Mercy Otis Warren published her work using a pseudonym by the name of “a Columbian Patriot.” I was wondering how exactly it was uncovered that it was in fact Mercy and not a Columbian Patriot. Did she get in trouble…or was it not until after her death that she was revealed as the true author? ~Megan Tisdelle~<br />
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Since Mercy Otis Warren was actually the author of Observations on the New Constitution, I found it interesting that her main points focused on the structure of the legal system. As a women, who wrote many works, would she not be more concerned about the stronger possibility of inequality toward women with this Constitution than the role of women previously during war times, or would that have been to conspicuous to bring up inequality toward women from the point of view of the "male" who was writing this article at this time? Quincey Garcia<br />
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== Thomas Jefferson's Notes of the State of Virginia, 1782 ==<br />
I found the document ''Thomas Jefferson on Slavery and Race'' interesting because how he compares whites to blacks in the aspect of logic/reason and physical attributes in order to justice his prejudices. My question is did most whites of this era think like Thomas Jefferson, in part to understand who the blacks were and if black slavery was justifiable? or did they have such a superiority complex that they didn't give themselves a chance to think like Thomas Jefferson? --Nick Scott--<br />
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In Thomas Jefferson’s Notes on the State of Virginia, he talks about the physical differences between blacks and whites, how there are “physical distinctions proving a difference in race”. Jefferson uses this reasoning to justify the separation of freed slaves into a separate state, but doesn’t this just confirm the way that most white slaveholders were thinking to justify having slaves in the first place? ~Renee Rosser<br />
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I thought it was interesting the attitude that Thomas Jefferson had on slaves. I have always known that Thomas Jefferson was not the "pro abolition of slavery" nice guy that some people thought, but when most of the North was ending slavery, he seemed to have such a bad attitude in this writing toward slaves. I would think that he would have been for slavery with his bad attitude towards them. --Jessie Bright<br />
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When we look back on the period of slavery, northerners are always touted as being the "Forward and progressive ones". However, even in the foreword it says "Jefferson's expplination.... discloses racial views that were widespread among white Maericans, North and South. Two questoins came to my mind. Do we look back and demonize the south for their beliefs, when the North was just as guilty, because of the northerners winning the civil war? And had the climate in the north been as warm and able to grow crops as intensively as the south, would they have ended up doing the same thing as the south (employing slavery as heavily).--Kathleen Dray<br />
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In this document i found the Southern racial views were absurd! Yes the slaves had low kidney excretions because they had no water or fluids to discrete! They sweated a lot because they worked obscene and absurd hours! they didn't sleep much because it was too hot or too cold and they were improperly clothed amongst other things. Is Jefferson's document the first document to so blatanlty expose these radically infallible, inexcusable, and twisted views of slavery in the South? If not, were there other recorded documents insighting or explaining the reasons why emancipation would never occur, also did abolitionists jump on these radical views and claims that slaves were essentially created to work and that every bodily function served the good of work and labor and slavery? -Landon James<br />
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If Congress was finally realizing that slavery was bad, why didn't they strive to abolish it entirely? Furthermore, I see a strong connection bewteen the financial and economic status of early America, one dependent on slave labor, and that of our current society, one dependent on immigrant labor. If all the slaves left the economy would crash as would our if all the Mexicans left. Did Congress consider the economic downfall of their country in determining not to abolish slavery entirely? - Landon James<br />
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I am in the Great Lives class this semester, and one of the lectures that we had was Professor Crawley lecturing on Thomas Jefferson. He brought up this document, and many of the aspects in it. I was therefore quite interested in actually reading it, although I had a general idea before I started as to what I would find. I was at the time, and again during the reading, completely taken back by Jefferson’s idea that freed slaves should be colonized, and kept separate from whites. And yet, in the reading, his reasons for this colonization, although I certainly do not agree with them, seem fairly sound: “Deep rooted prejudices entertained by the whites; ten thousand recollections, by the blacks, of the injuries they have sustained.” Are these not the roots of the very race issues that plague our nation to this day? While I by no means agree with what Jefferson was suggesting in the complete re-colonization of the freed slaves, I think his insight that simply freeing the slaves would not bring about a solution; in fact, these are issues that are still the forefront of modern prejudices, and these are the issues that need to be addressed and dealt with. ~Kristen Lonsdorf<br />
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Also in relation to the Thomas Jefferson document, I just thought I would share a few things that Professor Crawley informed us of in his Great Lives lecture in regard to Jefferson. (And again, I am not trying to make allowances for slavery AT ALL, I’m simply sharing some information.) Professor Crawley told us that people often question why Jefferson did not just free all his slaves. While I think the document that we read does a pretty good job of illustrating Jefferson’s racism, there are also several other reasons and here I quote from Professor Crawley. First, Jefferson knew that the time was not right to abolish slavery; the country was newly formed and the drastic change to people’s way of life would have caused major backlash. Second, Jefferson was not the type of person to martyr himself that he himself was not wholly invested in. Third, and perhaps most logical for the man himself, Jefferson was in debt for his entire life and freeing his slaves would have wreaked havoc on his financial situation. Freeing his slaves would have brought his creditors down up on him. I think it’s helpful to have some reasons why Jefferson did not just free all his slaves, as people often wonder. ~Kristen Lonsdorf<br />
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As a whole, I found that the “Notes on the State of Virginia” was Thomas Jefferson’s way of expressing his confusion towards the present as well as the future state of the new American society, especially concerning the laws of slavery. Throughout his writing, it is clear that Jefferson is both hopeful as well as anxious-indicating his conflicted views on where exactly the new Nation was headed, and whether or not it was for better or for worse. He evidently was still trying to work everything out in his head since it seems that he doesn’t really have a strong argument as to why exactly he believed in what he was writing. For example, when he writes about the differences in appearances between whites and blacks as a justification for two separate races, I doubt that these are his true feelings… ~and if they are, then he obviously didn’t see it as a negative aspect of society like most people did. Perhaps Jefferson was writing this simply to appease the average white man while still trying to get his point across? ~Megan Tisdelle~<br />
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== William Manning, The Key of Libberty, 1798 ==<br />
In William Manning's "The Key of Libbety, 1798", I found the part about education interesting. The author must have been talking about the eastern sections of the states, especially in NC and VA, as he said "nor none have too far to travel". The western farmers were extremely spread out. How did the easterner's face this challenge? Or did they ignore the west altogether, seeing as they will never be the ones that have the largest say in government issues? Also, why were women required 6 more weeks of schooling than men? Was is because they were supposed to "teach their male children how to grow up to live successfully in a republic"? - Alex Zelin<br />
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Manning's article made several points I would not have expected to hear about from Americans during 1798. Did other people support his pushes for free education even through the college level? And if they did, why is free college education not present in the US? -Ally Campo<br />
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== Molly Wallace and Priscilla Mason, Valedictory addresses at the Young Ladies Academy of Philadelphia, 1792, 1793. ==<br />
I think that it is interesting that in the documents from the Education of Young Women the first valedictory address was done by male and it addresses the need for women’s education. The second was a female who almost seemed apologetic for being chosen to speak but then begins to defend the need for women to speak publicly. The last address was also from a female and she wanted more places for women to be able to speak publicly. There is such a difference in the speeches between the first one done in 1792 and the last one done in 1793. Did women start to have more freedom of speech once they were educated in the 1790s? ~ Renee Rosser<br />
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In her speech, Molly Wallace, remarks upon the unpracacticle nature of men's education. She questions,"Why is a boy diligentlly anc carefully taught the Latin, the Greek, or the Hebrew language, in which he will seldom have occasion, either to write or converse" With these remarks, is Wallace getting at the idea that the women were taught much more practicle and appilicable subjects. And if so, were they only done so becuase this was a way to keep the women inferior to the men because they were thought as unable to grow with such intellect. -Dani Jones<br />
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In Education for Young Women, it seems as if both girls were not satisfied with their education at the academy for women. Mason states that women are not just wife, mother, and a friend but they are someone who also wants an education to be attorneys and such and there are no laws that prohibits this. --Eun Yi<br />
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I really liked Molly Wallace's Valedictory Address. I thought it was interesting that given the oppourtunity to speak in public she uses it to explain how she thinks it is unfair the way men are expected to do certain things like public speaking while for a women it is unlikely. I particularly liked her comment on how it was alright women to know how to write yet speaking in public was not really permisable. I liked it because it gives a different view of women at this time. For the most part we are shown women who are either content with their place, or if not content they don't challenge it. I also thought it was interesting to read what the women were taught in schools. --Melissa Brokaw<br />
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The speakers of the document "Education for Young Women" have different views of female education. Sproat believes the education is for women to be able to comprehend society and learn the language so they can actively listen to the changes being made. The women tend to make points on the men having a more thorough education, and it not being fair. Educating women had its benefits in raising the younger generations, but did the society see women's education as a drawback because women were looking for equality and losing that sense of being inferior to men as the female role? Lauren Hicks<br />
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I thought the differnce between Molly Wallace's valedictory address and Priscilla Mason's address was interesting. Wallace takes a more timid position while suggesting the benefits of women's education. A year later Mason takes a much more radical stance, suggesting that not only is womens education essential, but places blame on men for holding women back. I was wondering how this speech would have been received by the public? --Helen Dinndorf<br />
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== Mary Dewees Moves West to Kentucky, Journal 1788-1789 ==<br />
In Mary Dewee's Move West I was wondering if they took the Ohio River for the majority of the trip, because going along with her journal, it seems they do. Once off the river, do they just walk to Lexington? This all seems very labour intensive and risky. Do you think it was really worth it?- Taylor Warner<br />
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From "Journal, 1788-1789", I was quite intrigued. Many people seemed to have offered their homes as lodging and their food to travelers headed west. Was this an unwritten "requirement" from the people? Would someone who never hosted travelers be seen as a bad person? Also, especially when the family was crossing the Appalachians, they seemed to just stop by a random house. Was it sort of like the underground railroad and the families traveling knew who would take them in for a night? Or was it stop by a random house as dusk came to find a place to stay? - Alex Zelin<br />
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Second, Dewees' journal made me wonder how many people moved westward during this time? Who was most likely to make this move? Finally, I was wondering how slave owners reacted to Hamilton's views on manufacturing? Did they worry that factories would make their plantations obsolete? Were factories even a threat to the southern plantation economy? Were slaves more likely to work in these factories? --Lindsay Bothwell<br />
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I found it funny the Mary Dewees seems so concerned with her own and others physical appearances while making the rough journey west. First she comments on the dirty disposition of the Scott Irish that they camp with. She later mentions how while traveling on the boat, her family would not take the invitations to come ashore because they did not have their proper clothes with them. Why would appearance have been of any concern to the pioneers in the west at this time?--Helen Dinndorf<br />
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I also wonder how many people moved west. Was it common for people to know those who moved, or was it something where everyone knew of just one person who dared? I want to know if there was much gossip about it-were people always discussing the pros and cons of moving out west? Were a lot of people opposed, treating it as a scam like we treat infomercials today?--Gracie Ofslager<br />
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== Alexander Hamilton’s Report on the Subject of Manufactures, 1791 ==<br />
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== George Washington’s “Farewell Address to the People of the United States,” 1796 ==<br />
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I always loved George Washington's ''Farewell Address to the People of the United States, 1796'' because everything that he warned the newly formed U.S. has come true. He stated not to create political parties based on geography, in part to prevent in-fighting, we did. The most notorious of in-fighting was the American Civil War, which almost cost us our country. Also, he stated not to create alliances with European powers, in part to keep us safe and uninvolved in other nation's affairs. Look at our situation in the world today; many nations are angry with us because we can't keep our nose (so to speak) out of their business. Though Washington warned us of these dangers, he is in part responsible for causing Americans to do so. During his presidency he supported the Federalists. Thus, he put himself into opposition to Thomas Jefferson's Republicans. Basically one could call Washington a hypocrite and to heed his own warnings. Same scenario with his warning of political alliances; since he favored the Federalist view he supported the party platform of an alliance with Britain, which caused a strained relationship with France. Washington's presidential successor and fellow Federalist, John Adams, during his term from 1796-1800 was on the verge of war with France because of this alliance. Washington's farewell address is and always will be inspiring and thought provoking. --Nick Scott--<br />
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"Farewell Address to the People of the United States" -- Given at the end of Washington's second term, which thus set forth a precedent every president until Franklin Delano Roosevelt followed, Washington seemed to be giving advice to his fellow countrymen. He advocates a unified government, that citizens should always show patriotism, power in the people, and isolationism. He urges the nation to avoid miltiary establishment like the British imposed on the colonists and to avoid internal conflict. While reading Washington's speech, is it possible that Washington was a member of the English Country Party? Not necessarily a member, but more or less a supporter who believed power and liberty were in a constant battle against each other, and that liberty was more important than power. If Washington followed the principles of the English Country Party, then maybe the rest of the founding fathers as well believed in the same principles as they wrote the Constitution? Then if the Founding Fathers were supporters of the English Country Party, which believed that power of government takes away public liberty, then the Constitution was modeled according to English Country Party beliefs with the power of government resting in the hands of public liberty since the public controls the government, is it safe or correct to assume that perhaps the very first political party established in the United States was the English Country Party and not the Federalists/Antifederalists/Republicans? -- Meganne Lemon<br />
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Washington’s farewell address seems very unrealistic when it comes to a country being able to stay out of foreign relations and political parties. Did he truly believe that his ideals could be met, or was he simply “putting it out there” for Americans to strive towards? -Emily King<br />
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I think it's pretty cool that Washington gave advice at his farewell address, rather than focusing on what he'd done and such. His advice was pretty good, whether he followed it or not. He truly seemed to want the best for the country. --Gracie<br />
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"Observe good faith and justice towards all Nations; cultivate peace and harmony with all...In the execution of such a plan, nothing is more essential, than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular Nations, and passionate for others, should be excluded..." Obviously Washington wanted what was best for his country, and he gives good advice. But I find it interesting that he states that the nation should not be against other nations, or be particulary fond of them. It almost sounds like he has a fatherly tone and that he doesn't really trust any other nations, warning the United States to not be too passionate for other nations. -- Courtney Newcomb<br />
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'''Education for Young Women'''<br />
I found this article very interesting because education for women was still very uncommon. However, both Molly Wallace and Priscilla Mason both express their opinions very clearly about the difference between the education of men and women. In both speeches made in consecutive years, I found it interesting that both clearly stated that what men learned was quite useless even though it was thought to be prestigious. These women felt that even though they did not learn as much, the information they learned was more useful, valuable, and essential than that information that was taught to the men. It was also very interesting because I was also able to infer from these speeches that they thought they had more to offer intellectually than the men based on the knowledge that they had gained during their education. At this time however, wouldn't it have still been a problem for these to speak out so openly about their opinions of education? Quincey Garcia</div>199.111.70.160https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=HIST_131--Week_6_Questions/CommentsHIST 131--Week 6 Questions/Comments2008-02-22T05:52:52Z<p>199.111.70.160: </p>
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<div>La Barre's Failed Bluff<br />
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The Iroquois Indians were in recurrent wars with the French for a significant amount of time during the 17th century. Calloway states on page 118, "Hunger and disease thinned their ranks... (La Barre's Army)" Why didn't the Iroquois decimate the last of the French forces and possesing the knowledge that La Barre was bluffing his military potential to scare the Iroqois into submission? If the Iroquois destroyed La Barre's Army it would have possibly set in motion a rallying cry of Indian resistence, which leads to my other question. The Native Indians of the Americas were strong and prosperous during the initial European colonization; they had the power to make or break European colonies because many colonies survived only by the genorosity of the Natives (sharing of corn, berries, and meat, as well as farming/hunting techniques, etc). As the years past, the Natives lost their influence and diplomatic power and are in a situation where their population is steadily declining and reaching a point of possible extinction. Why couldn't the Native tribes unify for the sole cause of driving the Europeans out of their lands, or atleast resisting them and forcing the Europeans to live in co-existance? --Nick Scott--<br />
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"Boston Massacre Oration"-- I found it really interesting how Joseph Warren compared the Acts of Parliament. He likened it to being slavemasters, and the colonists the slaves. Since Warren lived in Boston, I have no doubt that the New Englanders had pretty radical ideas about slavery and were not as strict about power over them; if freed slaves in the North were able to join the Continental Army and Southern slaves had to get permission, then obviously Boston and New England were slightly more abolitionist than the South was. All that aside, did most colonists feel like slaves under the strict Parliamentary Acts? And if so, then wouldn't the colonists thus realize how oppressive it was and free their slaves? Also, I liked the statement addressed in the questions at the end of the document about Warren feminizing liberty, which makes me wonder whether or not this was the first time liberty has been feminized. I know today liberty is also known as Lady Liberty, further proof is the female Statue of Liberty. Is it possible that Warren or other colonists feminized liberty because then they were able to make power masculine? If liberty is feminine and power masculine, then obviously more colonists would defend liberty under the idea that liberty is weaker than power, which leads me to think that feminizing liberty was a way for Warren to promote independence prior to the Continental Congresses. -- Meganne Lemon<br />
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"Memoir"-- I had never read a first-hand account of the Boston Tea Party before, and reading George Hewes' account sort of "debunked" everything I thought it was like. The actual event wasn't as violent and dangerous as I thought it was and it was actually a bit disappointing; there were no hard-core fighting between the crews and colonists, and most surprising was the fact there was no British resistance. It seemed like the fierce rebels expected every single colonist to feel the way they did about the British and the taxes, as shown in how they treated those caught taking tea and those still loyal to the crown who sold tea to fellow Tories/loyalists. But my question involves the actual Tea Party itself. In the excerpt from the memoir, Hewes said that they were "to do no damage to the ship or rigging," but why? Were the British going to let them dump the tea and have their little "temper tantrum" so long as they didn't damage the ships? Is it possible that the colonists didn't damage the ships and rigging because the ships could have been built in New England or built using American products, thus to damage them would to hurt their fellow colonists? -- Meganne Lemon<br />
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In the "Memoir" I agree with Meganne when she said that she was dissappionted in the fact that there was no "fighting", I too thought the British fought back more. I also was wondering if when Hewes and the other colonists dressed up in "costumes of an indian", if the British were supposed to fall for these costumes and think it was the indians who were throwing the tea, or if the costumes were for personal disguise?- Taylor Warner<br />
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What things would of had to of been different for this war never to of happen? Were they ever close to an agreement not to fight? What were most colonists thinking at the time just before the war began? They knew they were going up against the strongest army in the war. Did most of them believe they didnt have a chance?-Bryan Quintana<br />
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In many of the arguments the patriots made, the notion of "all men being originally equals" seemed to be a central idea in their reasons for wanting independence from England. In Thomas Paine's Common Sense he states that, "..For all men being originally equals, no one by birth could have the right to set up his own family in the perpetual preference to all others for ever..." Doesn't this same statement apply to the slavery of blacks and American Indians that was taking place within the colonies at this same time? The colonists spoke of the power of England as tyrannical and complained that their rights were being taken away as if they were slaves....did they not see a connection here with slavery? I also wonder if the colonists ever really realized how economically dependent Britain became on the colonies themselves? Perhaps if they did the colonists could have used this weakness against Britain. What would our country be like today if the relations between the colonies and England had stayed friendly? What would have happened if there never was a revolution? --Lindsay Bothwell<br />
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I really enjoyed John and Abigail Adams letters for several reasons. First of all I really like correspondences because I think they make the people more real. To me they are more interesting because they seem to be more individuals like us as opposed to these really obscure historical figures. One of the reasons I like them is I like the way that we see a female patriot's view of the war. Abigail Adams is just as ardent as John Adams in her support of the Revolution. My favorite part is that unlike the idea we are often presented with of women being considered inferior, John Adams seems to treat Abigail like his equal and his letters don't have a condescending air about them. The letters just provide a new way to look at the war and the society in which all of this was occuring.--Melissa Brokaw <br />
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The documents in Calloway show some continual themes throughout Indian-White Relations. Primarily the idea that the Indians ally with whites they expect something in return. However, as Joseph Brant shows in his letter to the Britsh government, they are taken advantage of and used by the British for their own ends. With this kind of continual treatment, what is the incentive for Indians to ally with any whites? --Melissa Brokaw<br />
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The Shoemaker's recollection of the Boston Tea Party is very vivid, and I found it interesting because of the details that were provided that I had never heard about. However, I was most intrigued by the description that Hewes gave of beating of Malcom, the custom-house officer, who had stroke him with his cuddgle earlier, instead of the young boy. I am curious if the actions of this custom house office enraged the colonists enough to give them that extra motivation to carry out the Boston Tea Party or if it was a separate event all together that Hewes had experienced? Quincey Garcia<br />
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I agree with Quincey; I thought that the cuddgle incident and the Tea Party seemed very incongruous with one another in Hewes’ memoir. Was the story of the custom-house officer simply a case of showing the “high-handed arrogance of many British officials,” or did the event have a closer connection to the actions that took place at the Tea Party? ~Kristen Lonsdorf<br />
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I found the Origin & Progess of the American Revolution to be quite detailed in the actions that were carried out on the various victims that the mob took. It seemed that the victims were those with some sort of political power, be it a judge, lawyer, or even a preacher. I was curious if the Mob was just a group of anyone or if there were any requirements for the people who were involved? Was there any action taken against these men or where they just so greatly feared that no one did anyting? Is it possible that many of the other citizens agreed with these actions because they too were displeased with the government officials at this time too? Quincey Garica<br />
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In the Boston shoemaker’s recollection of the Boston Tea Party it says that people were trying to grab tea off of the deck of the ship and if they were caught the tea was taken away from them, one man was even thrown over boar. It also says that after all of the tea had been thrown into the harbor that there was some still floating in the water and a boat went around and made sure that it all got wet so that it could not be used. Was tea such a valuable commodity that people were willing to risk ridicule and abuse to get it? ~Renee Rosser<br />
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In response to Renee's question I have a few words as an avid tea lover myself. It was not that tea was such a valuable commodity that people were willing to risk ridicule and abuse to get it, it was a part of their heritage and culture. The British are very much dedicated to their tea and the colonists, who were likewise trying to become increasingly more British, were trying to be as much dedicated and symmetrical to the culture and practices of England. Also, they just plain liked it and it is not hard to believe that many were addicted to it just like people are addicted to Starbucks coffee today. This account veyr much reminds me of the means and lengths to whihc people went to obtain Beanie Babies back in the day. - Landon James<br />
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I noticed in the Boston Tea Party recollection that they dressed up as indians before going aboard the ships. What was the point of this? Was it just to disguise their identity or were they actually trying to frame the indians? This doesn't make much sense since most the indians were allies with the British and didn't support the rebellious patriots in most cases. - Jessie Bright<br />
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In response to Jessie's question. It makes perfect sense that they would dress up as Indians and you gave the answer to your own question in your post. The Indians were allies with the British, so going aboard a British trading ship coming from England bearing English tea, I imagine the British would think twice before acting harshly and reprimanding Indians for coming aboard their ship when that was one of the minorities they were explicitly trying to recruit to fight int he war against the colonists. - Landon James <br />
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I have a question that's quite off topic yet must be addressed. In "A Boston Shoemaker Recalls British Arrogance and the Boston Tea Party", Hewes writes that after he rebuked Malcolm for almost striking a boy that Malcolm "struck me across the head with his cane, and knocked me down, and by the blow cut a hole in my hat two inches in length" (102). I have rolled this over in my mind for quite a bit and I still cannot figure out how a cane blow to the head can cut a hole in Hews' hat. Does anybody have an answer to this? - Landon James<br />
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The soldier’s experience of the Revolutionary War give the reader an idea about how hard the times of a soldier could be and the many things that were promised to the soldiers that they did not get. It is sad to think that they joined and fought for their country and never received any reparations for their efforts and were basically forgotten about after the war. Was this because people were just glad that the war was over and didn’t want to think about it any more, or was the economy in such shambles that the government could not afford to pay the soldiers? ~Renee Rosser<br />
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In the Shoemaker's recollection of the Boston Tea Party, the beating of the boy and of Malcolm both seem very harsh for the crime. Were all crimes at this time in the region punished to such a harsh extent? -Laura Peters<br />
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In the Cheda "Promise to Uphold the Covenant Chain," At the end of each paragraph it makes a reference to a gift such as "Giving eight beavers." What is this referring to and why is it included? -Laura Peters<br />
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In George Hewes' memoir, according to the doctor, the boy could have died if it wasnt for his strong skull so therefore Malcom's punishment isn't severe. I actually think he got away with it. He nearly killed the little boy for practically no reason. - Eun Yi<br />
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In Boston King's memoir, he says that he runs away to the english militia because of the horrible treatment by his master and to be a freeman after the war. However, i find it strange that King is still a slave in the unit and it seems as if he could choose his master. Because when Captain Lewes asked if he could be his master, he replies no because he is Captain Grey's servant and then after serving him, he went to other masters. -Eun Yi<br />
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When reading "A Loyalist Judges's Catalog of Rebellious Crowds" i started to get really annoyed with the patriots actions. How did they expect to get anyones respect or convert any loyalists to their side when they were acting like blood thirsty mobsters? I'm aware there may be some bias in the statements due to it coming from the writings of a loyalist, but if this is even remotely how the patriots acted then i have a hard time finding sympathy for them in their cause. I almost understand why the British enforced a standing army in the colonies, it sounds like an army was very much needed during these times. Also is this how the loyalists acted? Were there mobs of loyalists running around town beating up any patriot they saw? - Jessie Bright<br />
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I have more of a general/overarching question...if the British saw that the colonists were getting extremely angry with all of the taxes and laws that they felt were restricting their freedomn as British citizens, then why didn't the British government back off a little bit and give the colonies some breathing room in order to re-group and get back to the old ways of an adult/child relationship-Dani Jones<br />
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This is a small detail and it probably doesn't really make a huge difference to the article but in "Peter Oliver Origin & Progress of the American Revolution" why are all the names of people and places in italics? Is it simply for emphasis; to draw attention to them so the readers don't miss them? Is this a detail that was added later on when the article was published? -Jenna Shevlin<br />
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I was surprised to find that the accounts of the men particapating in the Boston Tea Party were so mundane leading up to the event. It seems like everyone just went on with their lives as usual and what they were about to do didn't really affect them. Why exactly was this? Why are their lives right before the Boston Tea Party so important to know? Was there a point in proving that the event that was about to happen wasn't taken seriously by those who participated in them? Wouldn't they know that what they were about to do would ultimately alter the course of history? -Jenna Shevlin<br />
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In the letters that George Washington wrote to Bryan Fairfax, he uses the term Americans several times. I was just wondering when this concept of "american" was actually put in place. And with my understanding, why would they be referring to themselves as anything but British citizens becuase this was a time that they wanted fair British rights more than anything, so why would they distinguish themselves as a different group of people? Another question that comes to mind is how Washington would have gotten this concept, because as we have discussed, the colonies were not nearly as unified as we are taught to believe -Dani Jones<br />
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To try to answer part of Dani's question about the use of "Americans", it might be because at the time George Washington, along many other Chesapeake Elites, were Patriots, and therefore against British power. It says in the introduction that the "colonial rights had to be defended", so maybe this was the beginning of Washington's Patriotism. I am not completely sure about this, but I believe he is using his point of view( as a Patriot) to disagree and defend the colonies.- Taylor Warner<br />
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In George Hewes "Memoir", I thought it was interesting that man of the colonist participating in the Boston Tea Party disguised themselves as Indians. I wonder if the colonist chose this disguise on a whim, or if there was supposed to be a deeper parallelism implied. Also the colonists sense of unity in this act surprised me. Being able to work together, the way Hewes describes, under pressure and with little direction, was a commendable feat. These Boston colonist seem to share a single goal, purpose and identity for the first time during the Boston Tea Party. --Helen Dinndorf<br />
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In George Washington's Letters to a friend, he uses the term Americans to describe himself and all of the colonist under British rule. Was the term American, in refernce to the North American colonist commonly accepted in 1774 when this letter was written? Washington obviously feels the need for the colonies to become a separate nation of their own, but had others already accepted themselves as Americans? --Helen Dinndorf<br />
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Like Quincey, I was curious about the account in “Memoir” concerning Malcom and the beating. My question is though how the Boston Tea Party connects to the story of a man beating another with his cudgel and then the resulting flogging etc.? Is it showing the mind set of the colonists at the time and their retaliation? I think I’m just missing the connection between the two stories. –Rory Reese<br />
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In Calloway, the Chickasaw Chiefs “Message to Congress” seems to ask the question who is in charge of the tribes. The chiefs basically ask for American guidance or leadership saying, “Such a man living among us particularly at this time, would rescue us from the darkness and confusion we are in.” With a past where the Indians want nothing to do with colonists or someone trying to take control of them would they then ask for their guidance in who it was appropriate to trade with? Isn’t that asking for Americans to take some sort of leadership over their tribes? –Rory Reese<br />
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Burke’s speech- Burke speaks about the colonists’ spirit of freedom, “The fact is so; and these people of the Southern Colonies are much more strongly, and with an higher and more stubborn spirit, attached to liberty, than those to the North-ward. Such…will be all masters of slaves, who are not slaves themselves.” Do historians believe that slave ownership caused Americans to be more protective of their own freedom and therefore, more sensitive to British control?-Emily King<br />
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Soldier’s Experience- Martin states, “I never spent a thought about numbers, the Americans were invincible in my opinion.” Did many soldiers enlist into the American army due to these patriotic feelings or were there other reasons? Did many feel pressured into enlisting?–Emily King<br />
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In the "Boston Massacre Oration," Joseph Warren is in complete oppposition to Parliament's numerous tax Acts that have been passed on the colonies. We talked in class about how the colonistes argued "no taxation without representation," and Warren definitely exploits this argument in his speech. He even makes a reference to Parliament's rebuttal of "virtual representation" by saying "I would next ask, whether the lords, who compose the aristocratic branch of the legislature, are peers of America?" Warren definitely expresses the growing unrest and dissatisfaction of the Patriots with Parliament's attempts to govern the colonies. - Iris Onks<br />
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In Peter Oliver's Origin and Progress of the American Revolution, I couldn't help but notice what appears to be blatant embellishment of some of the facts. For example, describing Colonial Gilbert's beating of 100 men with a single arm and the FOUR THOUSAND MEN who attacked Thomas Oliver's house. What was the purpose of this document? Was it meant as propaganda for the British to quell these rebellions or was it just written to perhaps save some post-war pride for the loyalists? Can we even trust any of these events really happened?<br />
-Adam Shlossman<br />
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In Thoughts on the Present State of American Affairs, in Thomas Paine's Common Sense, the author suggests several future plans for an Independent Republic including the idea of a "President", equal representation, and delegated districts. Were these ideas his own? Were they debated in the Constitution Convention as such? How revolutionary were these thoughts?<br />
-Adam Shlossman<br />
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The one major thing I realized when reading the "Boston Massacre Oration" was that the language seemed very different from English. I mean this in the way that Warren's speech was very much like the dialect and spelling used by Americans today. How could the language have changed so dramatically if America was mainly settled by British people? Were the colonists notice this growing change in dialect and spelling from traditional English? -Ally Campo<br />
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In Thomas Jefferson's "Notes on the State of Virginia" it seemed little he was contradicting himself throughout the passage. How could he be a man that was so pressed on limiting the spread of slavery but yet held bias views about the slaves? Is it that he really believes all the stereotypes about slaves or is he merely speaking about what white people thought of the slaves? -Ally Campo <br />
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While reading Martin's "Memoir," I was shocked by how badly the soldiers were treated during the Revolution. They weren't really provided with any of the items in their contracts. Also, they weren't taken care of at all. They were forced to march for days at a time without rest, they had no proper lodgings, and very little food and clothing. Why were the soldiers treated so poorly and with such disrespect? - Iris Onks<br />
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I really enjoyed the letters between the John and Abigail Adams. I think that it shows a personal side of the two of them that is very sweet. To see the viewpoint from a woman in that time who was so closely linked to one of the most influential men of the Revolution very interesting. ---Virginia Stratton<br />
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In "Memoir" I found it interesting that in the last three paragraphs Hewes talks about how the citizens went out the morning after they raided the ships and beat the tea floating on the water to a point where it was useless. I guess that this makes sense but I never actually thought about tea floating in the harbor! ---Virginia Stratton<br />
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I found that in Thomas Paine’s “Common Sense” pamphlet, the language he used as well as the way he wrote it were two of the many main factors that made his testimony so compelling. Being quite an intellectual for his time, it was interesting to see how in “Common Sense” he used such plain language- so as to reach out to the many commoners of America that were soon to be involved in this war against Great Britain. I also found it noteworthy to point out how open Paine was about claiming independence for his country. His confidence obviously flowed immensely over to the populace, thus making “Common Sense” one of the greatest documents of its time, as well as making the Revolutionary War worth fighting for. <br />
~Megan Tisdelle~<br />
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In Joseph Plumb Martin's "memoir 1830", I noticed he had alot of pride for a young man in America. He felt that he knew enough about what he stood for to fight "the mother land" as they called Britain. Were farmers a good source of politcal stance and information, since that is where he received his information and chose to call himself a patriot. Lauren Hicks<br />
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In the "March 22, 1775 Speech to Parlaiment", Burke gives a fairly descriptive breakdown of the colonies and how each is based on different principles. The Northern colonies are described with a Religious standard and the Southern Colonies having slavery and how people view freedom differently. Since the colonies weren't really fighting for a common goal, Did the regions pride themselves on their differences? Lauren Hicks<br />
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I personally enjoyed reading the "Letters of John and Abigail Adams." It was interested to me to see how they interacted with each other. I found it unusual that the only greeting reference was John to Abigail saying "dearest Friend." You don't exactly find greeting cards at Hallmark in the Wife section starting out with "Dear Friend." It was also fun to watch them politely argue when she complains about his short responses to her letters.--Megan Malecha<br />
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I thought the picture where John Malcolm is getting tarred was very descriptive in that the British really portray the Americans as bad people. The looks on the Americans faces say it all. Im sure when people back in Britian saw this picture they thought of the Americans as barbarick people when really they are just trying to win there freedom.-Bryan Quintana<br />
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In the textbook in the section talking about the Boston Massacre it says that there was a black man, Crispus Attucks, was one of the five people killed. It also says that his funeral was held along with the white men's funerals and that he was treated as an equal. Was he given a better funeral than most black people of the time because he was killed 'for the cause'? I just don't see how they could have rationalized treating him better after death than they did during most slave's lives. ~ Mary Johnston<br />
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Also in the textbook reading it was said that two soldiers convicted of manslaughter were branded on the thumbs. I was just wondering if this was a common punishment for murder, because I have never heard of it before, and what exactly was branded on their thumbs? If it is known... ~Mary Johnston<br />
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In the Memoir of R.T. Hewes, I noticed that he wrote it many years after it happened. Thus, the source can not be that reliable. I also noticed that when he talked about what happened when the men went to dump the tea overboard that the captain willingly gave them the keys as long as they didn't hurt the ship. Why didn't he try to signal the British ships docked neerby, or keep the men away from the cargo? -Kristina Scrimshaw<br />
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In "A Loyalist Judge's Catalog of Rebellious Crowds,"I found that because the writer was a loyalist he might have been bias toward other loyalist's like himself. I also noticed that during all the mob riots, not many people were hurt, but rather just scared into doing what the mob wanted. Was this common? -Kristina Scrimshaw<br />
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In Peter Oliver's "Origin & Progress of the American Revolution, 1774-1775", I found data that contrasted with information in class. I had thought that the mob's intents were not to kill, but to scare. However, in Oliver's accounts, the mobs came very close to killing the English supporters. Did they actually intend on killing them, but different circumstances prevented them from doing so? Or did they intend to bring them as close to death as possible to scare them? - Alex Zelin<br />
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In Atiwaneto's "Speech Resisting Colonial Expansion", I found his plea to the English very well written and thought out from their point of view. But right before and during the Revolutionary War, how much attention was actually paid to the Indians? Were the Patriots and English fighting to have them on their side? Or were they left alone, apart from traveling and slight skirmishes in their land? - Alex Zelin<br />
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I really like the letters of Abigail Adams and John Adams. I read the same letters in high school and still love them today. I find it really interesting that Abigail asks John to not forget the women and his response is even more interesting. The way my high school teacher put it was, he basically told her that she was a silly woman and should mind her own business. I also find it interesting that he basically flirts with her in response to her comment by calling her saucy. I still enjoy the letters 6 years later. -- Katie Mauro<br />
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One thing I found interesting about the letters of John and Abigail Adams was when she was describing the cannon's going off and said that she went out to Penn Hill that day and was practically a spectator to the war. I know that during the Civil War people would set up chairs and watch the fight but I did not know that it also happened in some sense during the Revolution. I wonder when it was that people's view of war changed to the point where we could be appalled by people viewing a battle as if it was a sport. And now a days the innocent civilians would probably be attacked along with the soldiers. -- Katie Mauro<br />
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In "A Boston Shoemaker Recalls British Arrogance and the Boston Tea Party" I was very surprised to hear that Mr. Hewes, and according to himself, many others, dressed up as Indians to go to the dock. This doesn't quite make sense to me. Where they dressing up to shift blame for the tea party? It seems pointless to do so because the colonists are the ones sending the message... not the Indians. It seems that England would get a much clearer message if the men were dressed as... well, themselves. Maybe i'm missing something? --Jessica Lawrie<br />
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In Hewes's Memoir, he mentions that he turned a man in for trying to take tea for his own during the Boston Tea Party. Were there any groundrules established beforehand that said that they couldn't do this? And if the point of the Tea Party was to oppose the tax on tea, why wouldn't stealing tea be fair game in this opposition?- Jake Guralnik<br />
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In the "Boston Massacre Oration" it started me thinking about the past art I'd studied about the Boston Massacre and how the Americans had portrayed the British as ominous and dominating as they emerged from billowing smoke, and the Americans as a rag tag innocent group trying to flee from them. Like the print, the piece made me realize just how twisted a view the colonists had on British ruling and just how much that has influenced our current view on colonial rule. ( image is here if you’re interested http://chnm.gmu.edu/exploring/images/massacre2a.jpg ) <br />
- Kathleen Dray<br />
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I was wondering about why British soldiers were treated so poorly despite the promises made to them for enlisting etc.... as well. Was it because of financial debt Britain had remaining from the French and Indian war? Because they lost? What were the reasons?<br />
-Kathleen Dray<br />
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Is it at all posible that the Boston Tea Party would have been more or just as effective if the protesters had stolen the tea instead of destroying it? -Jake Guralnik<br />
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I thought it interesting how in the boston massacre article the rhetoric so vilanized the British. The facts I learned about it did not seem as bad as the speech made it sound.<br />
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I liked the extensive communication between John Adams and his wife. It was cool to see his thoughts as the events progressed. It was like getting into the brain of John Adams.<br />
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What exactly was the purpose of dressing up as Native Americans for the Tea Party? I feel that there was very little chance that anyone was actually fooled by the disguises. Also, it would seem to me that if the point of the Tea Party was to make a point against the British, the cause of the colonists would be better illustrated if the actions were actually carried out by colonists. ~Kristen Lonsdorf<br />
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This question is going to seem rather random, but it occurred to me as I was reading the letters between Abigail and John Adams: is it true that Adams and Thomas Jefferson never really liked or got along with one another, as I have often heard? Also, it seems to me that Adams is unaware of the writer of the Common Sense pamphlet in his letters, and more than that, that he is critical of the author, saying of the writer, “[he] has a better Hand at pulling down than building.” He even seems to lament the fact that some people believe him to be the writer. Was Adams indeed unaware of who the author was? And if so, is it possible that he believed Jefferson to be the writer and this is where some of his hostilities toward the pamphlet come from? ~Kristen Lonsdorf<br />
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In Hewes "Memoir", he says that he dressed up as an indian. What was the point of this? Wouldn't people notice that he is white? "There appeared to be an understanding that each individual should volunteer his services, keep his own secret, and risk the consequences for himself." Obviously this was a big deal and something everyone wanted to be kept secret. -Courtney Newcomb</div>199.111.70.160https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=HIST_131--Week_1_Questions/CommentsHIST 131--Week 1 Questions/Comments2008-01-18T05:48:34Z<p>199.111.70.160: </p>
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<div>I had read before that the concept of heaven and hell did not exist for Native Americans prior to European colonization. They believed in an after life but not one in which good and evil were separated. If this is the case then it is interesting that in the Johnson reader the Seneca Creation story "The Women who Fell From the Sky" refers to a place called "heaven." Although it states that it is now called heaven, and this was not recorded until after 1887, it is still evident that the European or Christian concept of heaven and hell had permeated Native American society. <br />
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Additionally, it is clear that the Seneca origin narrative in the Johnson reader and the Iroquois Creation Story in the Calloway reader, are inherently the same story. Not only are there similarities, but the Seneca were once part of the Iroquois Nation, so it makes sense that they would have very similar stories. However, there are differences, such as how the twins' mother got pregnant, and the twins names. Is this because of the time in between the two recordings(1816 and 1887), or is there some other reason? <br />
--Melissa Brokaw<br />
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While reading Roark i learned that scholars have been in heated debates over the population of Native Americans in North America during the time of European colonization. Some say that the population is over 18 million and some say it was no more than one million. I was curious as to why the estimates are so varied, what evidence do scholars have to support their theories? Also, why did the textbook settle on a population of four million? - Jessamyn Bright<br />
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I was interested also in the remark Roark made about the life expectancy of some Native American tribes. He mentioned that for some it was no more than 18 years old. The text didn't elaborate on this, but i was curious as to how this may have affected those tribes with their lives being so short. - Jessamyn Bright<br />
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I feel that the oppression of the Native Americans of North America is one the most shameful acts of this nation's history. In fact, I feel that this oppression was more severe and brutal than most of the African American oppressions. I am not condoning slavery or African American racism and oppression by any means; however, we destroyed an entire culture that was 1,000s of years old and stole land that we had no right to. I was wondering if anyone else wandered why this severe oppression is not focused on more. Native Americans and descendants are still placed on reservations and seen as outcasts in many of today’s societies. Are there any new steps being taken to help give back part of the life we stole from the Native Americans? –Landon James<br />
Are there any aspects (major or minor) that American society and culture has adopted from the Native Americans? – Landon James<br />
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Are there any Native American radical groups in today’s society? Perhaps fighting for more rights? –Landon James<br />
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"The Woman Who Fell from the Sky", in "Reading the American Past", I was very quickly reminded of Cain and Abel. The vast differences between the two is comparable to the differences between Othagwenda and Djuskaha, up until the point of the murder of the brother. In "The Woman Who Fell from the Sky", the "evil" brother is killed, whereas in Cain and Abel, evil prevailed. - A. Zelin<br />
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I find it ironic that within only about 70 years, the story of creation as told by the Iroquois can change so drastically. In Norton's retold version, the Great Spirit's daughter was thrown from the "country above the sky", she was ordered to create land for herself, and the evil twin was beloved by the Great Spirit's daughter. However, in Curtin's version, the daughter was kicked from the sky by a man protective over his only source of fruit. The animals of the Earth helped her to survive and took care of her on their own good will, and the "evil" twin was the one expelled and constantly watched by the brother and Grandmother while growing up. - A. Zelin<br />
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The contrast between "The Woman Who Fell from the Sky" and the "Irquois Creation Story" is very similar. On one hand, the stories are similar in that they start out in the empire in the sky, the daughter of the Great Spirit had a daughter, and how the daughter of the woman had twins. The significance of the twins is that one is good and the other evil, yet in the story of "The Woman Who Falls from the Sky" the "evil" brother seemed to be made evil because his grandmother put him in a tree for the begining of his life. Was he just so evil that the grandmother could sense it, or was he made evil by his environment; by not having a loving family to care for him? It is kind of like the frequintly asked question today of whether man is born "bad" or if it is his environment that turns him that way.-Kristina Scrimshaw<br />
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I also spotted a few significant features in both the stories: how there was a great tree in the sky and how the Earth is believed to have been created on a turtles back. Would the great tree in the sky be the same as the Genesis tree of life or the tree of knowledge of good and evil?-Kristina Scrimshaw<br />
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In the Seneca story of creation there is no mention of a connection between man and women while it was important to the Genesis and “The Politics” documents. In Genesis, woman is made as a companion for man and in “The Politics” unions are important for reproducing and status. In the 1887 version of the Seneca story, a father to the twins isn’t even mentioned. Does this show a lack of importance of a man and woman uniting in this culture or a status that is just not as treasured as in Christianity and the politics of early Greeks? –Rory Reese<br />
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In “The Politics,” when explaining the “primary and simplest elements of the household,” the first connection mentioned was between master and slave, followed by husband and wife, and parents and children.(8) Is because master and slave are mentioned before husband and wife give the slave more status in the home than the wife? Or does it just level a wife with the stature of a slave? –Rory Reese<br />
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I found it interesting that in the Seneca narrative of "The Woman Who Fell From the Sky" and in the Iroquois Creation Story, woman was the first human to put on the Earth, whereas, in Genesis man was the first human to be put on Earth, and then women was made from him. Could this have shown the differences in cultures and who was considered to have more divinity - man or woman? – Renee Rosser<br />
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All three creation stories involve a tree as a main part of the story. In the Seneca and Iroquois creation stories this is how the woman first gets to Earth from heaven, and in Genesis this is how Adam and Eve learn of good and evil, by eating the fruit from the tree. Is there some significance as to why trees were included in all three creation stories or is it just a coincidence? - Renee Rosser<br />
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In reply to Renee's thought about a tree being present in both stories, I think there is a true significance. A dominate belief in the Native American culture is the presence of mother earth and in their stories her "authority" is represented by the tree. I think Christianity has some similar beliefs that all things are alive and the tree is a perfect example of growth, whether it be physical growth, spiritual growth, or growth by maturity. So a simple answer to her question, in my opinion, is that the presence of a tree in all 3 stories is not a coincidence. -Ally Campo<br />
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I know this may sound like a silly question, but I've never understood why God created the earth. Discussion question 1 for the Genesis reading asks "How and why did God create the earth?", but I actually don't know. In Sunday school churches always teach about the creation though they do not provide a definate reason why. Did God create the earth just for "kicks"? Are there other scriptures that give a definate answer? -Ally Campo <br />
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In the Iroquois story why would the evil twin enjoy the favour of his grandmother? Shouldn't it be the other way around, or is this supposed to show us our susceptible to evil but that it is a momentary state and that good will reign over, which is showed through the good brother having the support of the creater? -Dani Jones<br />
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Why is the origin of the Creek Confederacy so much different from the other two? The Creek start out with the Kasihtas being spit out basically and the Iroquois and Seneca are dropped down from heaven in a sense, and the rest of the Creek story just seems to differ drastically. -Dani Jones<br />
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In the Seneca Origin Narrative, Othagwenda could be considered the evil brother and Djuskaha was the savior. I think the story is representative of Native Americans sense of good overcoming evil through time. Since Native Americans believed that it was Djuskaha that made their lives easier would they ever worship or honor him in anyway? Or did they only ever worship nature? -Emily King<br />
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Socrates argues that there is a difference between the rule of a statemen and the rule of a master. I don’t believe he is very convincing. He speaks of the “naturally ruled” element as being present in only slaves and women. Couldn’t one argue that everyone is ruled at some level excluding the very highest held position of king? And if this were the case, then wouldn’t people always have a mix of “ruled” and “ruling” abilities? -Emily King<br />
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The two Native American accounts of creation are very similar even after being told for many years and then having to be translated. There is a strong connection with nature which is the stereotypical ideal of the American Indian on preserving the land. The emphasis on nature surporting human life is literally explained with the turtle carrying the first island formation. -Lauren Hicks<br />
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It's interesting about the twins how there is this conflict of living together, in both stories they could not live harmoniously with the others actions. It's also interesting that the "evil twin" was having bad/ negative thoughts since before birth in both accounts, since there has been a battle of good and evil since the beginning of time, will there ever be a resolution where everyone will be happy or at least content? -Lauren Hicks<br />
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While reading the two Native American accounts of creation, I noticed several similarities between them and the story of creation in Genisus. First, the tree that is uprooted in both the Native American accounts is reminiscent of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Once the tree is uprooted, a young woman is cast down from heaven. In the same way, Adam and Eve are cast out of the Garden of Eden once they have eaten from the tree of knowledge. Also, in both Genisus and the Native American accounts, first Earth was made up entirely of water and then land was created. Finally, the twin boys that are born in the Native American accounts remind me of Cain and Abel. Just as Cain killed Abel, in both Native American stories one of the twin boys kills the other. However, despite all these striking similarities, I noticed one major difference. In the Genisus creation story, a man (Adam) is the first person to inhabit the earth. However, in both Native American accounts a woman is the first to live on the earth. -Iris Onks<br />
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The Origin of the Creek Confederacy is very different from the other two Native American accounts of creation. Why are the two so different? Also, this account was a little confusing and I feel like there's a lot of symbolism in it that I'm not quite understanding. -Iris Onks<br />
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I thought that it was interesting how in The Christian Origin Narrative, Adam and Eve only knew of good, but by the end they were tempted into evil. This symbolizes how evil comes into play, not over good, but at the same strength as good. In the Seneca Origin Narrative I agree with Emily King's first comment on how good overcomes evil when Djuskaha defeats Othagwenda. I thought that was ironic because the Origins are similiar in many ways but at the same time have different views on good and evil.- Taylor Warner<br />
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In both of the Native American stories of creation they both mention the Great Turtle. I was wondering the significance it has in their beliefs? Does it in any way relate to the snake in the Christian Origin Narrative because they both were the only Reptiles, let alone animals, that were on earth before the creation of the rest of the animals? -Taylor Warner<br />
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I found it interesting that I was able to find several similarities between the Native American accounts and the Christian account. In each story there were two brothers, one good and one evil. Could this possibly signify the struggle between the different tribes? There was also a tree in each one of them; could this have anything to do with the belief the Native Americans had of life being dependent on the Earth for nourishment among other things? -Jenna Shevlin<br />
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While the names of the brothers were different in the two Native American accounts they had roughly the same meaning according to each of the translations. How can this be since they were written so far apart? Could the different language have anything to do with it? -Jenna Shevlin<br />
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In the Iroquois Creation Story in Calloway's book, I found it interesting that the two brothers were fighting and the lands where they passed through as they fought ended up being areas where different languages developed. I didn't really understand the ending to the story--exactly what were they fighting over? Was it because the evil twin killed the mother and the good one was avenging her death? -Meganne Lemon<br />
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To Jenna's question about the names being similar: I think the difference in time the stories were written and translated has nothing to do with the meaning of the names. It could just be the sake of oral tradition and how spoken word changes; someone from one particular Native American tribe/culture told someone of another tribe the story either by a mixed marriage between different tribes as treaties or using women as pawns in feuds between tribes as part of a peace treaty. The names of the two boys could have been changed to better fit the different Native American people and their particular history, culture, or language. It could just be simple variations of the two names like how dozens of present-day modern names have different spellings in different languages, yet still the names have the same meaning. -Meganne Lemon<br />
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I found it interesting that both of the Native American creation stories, both the Seneca and the Iroquois, seemed to be very negative. Both focused on the struggle between the two brothers, and I wonder if there is any parallel with the strugle the Native Americans faced with the colonist. <br />
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Also I was wondering if the account of the Creek origin, told by Chekilli, was also trying to allude to struggle between Native Americans and colonist. Especially in the last paragraph on page 32, "they now know that the white path was the best for them: for , although Tomochichi was a stranger, they see he has done them good." And then he goes on to mention the King and Esquire Oglethorpe, who as described in the picture on page 32 invited Tomochichi and his wife to travel to England. I'm confused as to what in this story is fiction and what is actually based on historical events.--Helen Dinndorf--<br />
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I found the Iroquois Creation Story, The Woman Who Fell from the Sky, and the Book of Genesis all intriguing because each story shares similarities, as well as profound differences. Are these similaries mere coincidence or insight to some greater purpose? My question is how would a historian percieve these similarities pertaining to the different people, cultures, and societies? The stories remind me of a program I watched on the History Channel about the search for Noah's Ark and how multiple religions and societies have similiar stories of a great flood in their past, some documented, some orally past down from generation to generation, but it makes one think! ---Nick Scott---<br />
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In response to Landon James'question: "Are there any new steps being taken to help give back part of the life we stole from the Native Americans?" I know of a one "benefit" (and I say that sarcastically) that the Native Americans recieve; they get tax exemptions on products they sell, such as tobacco products (Cigars and Cigarettes). I know this because my parents buy cigarettes at one reservation in New York. I heard that the government is displeased since many small local U.S. tobacco sellers cannot keep up with Native American low prices. The Native American my parents buy their tobacco products from told them with the profit he has made selling tobacco he plans to build a casino on the reservation, everything tax free! ---Nick Scott---<br />
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I agree with A. Zelin about the Seneca origin narrative, "The Woman Who Fell from the Sky", it reminded me of Cain and Abel as well. I find it interesting because in the Bible it is the first time a human dies and I wonder, is the death of Othagwenda in the Seneca story the first mention of a human death in their spiritual history as well? -- Katie Mauro<br />
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While reading the passage from Genesis I noticed that there were two sentences where God is speaking and the word "us" and/or "our" is used. "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..." and "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us..." I just find it interesting that "us" and "our" are used when God is speaking. -- Katie Mauro<br />
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I also found it interesting that in "The Politics" by Aristotle, he says, "It is thus clear that, just as some are by nature free, so others are by nature slaves, and for these latter the condition of slavery is both beneficial and just..." For those Europeans who had actually read Aristotle, he is basically saying that it is good for those people who are slaves by nature to be enslaved and it is also not wrong to enslave them. -- Katie Mauro<br />
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In response to the statement above about God referring to himself as "us", some people believe the "us" is the trinity, and others believe it is the angels with God, and all the heavenly beings. Still others believe it is kind of like a "royal" us. Like, showing importance, kind of in the way queens would say "We would like a sandwich and a pepsi." (not that she'd ask for those two specifics...)<br />
-- Jessica Lawrie<br />
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A couple people have asked whether or not Native Americans are fighting back today. Over Christmas break there was a news story on how the Lakota people have withdrawn treaties made with the United States in the 19th century. They declared themselves independent. You can read the story at Fox News or CNN, just type "Lakota Indians" into the search bar.--Melissa Brokaw<br />
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Somewhat connected to what A. Zelin said, I saw an unmistakable link among three stories with 2 brothers each. Teharonghyawago & Tawiskaron (From the Iroquois Creation Story), Cain and Able (From the Bible's account of creation), and Romulus and Remus (From Greek Mythology). In all three stories, one brother killed another. It seems to support the fact that people travelled across the Bering Strait. Naturally all the people would start with the same version of creation long long ago, but over the years as it was orally passed down, it began to change in whatever way the story teller relayed it (whether intentionally or not). I found that interesting and exciting. :) --Jessica Lawrie <br />
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A little off topic, but, in class we were asked what the plural for moose is. I was thinking maybe the reason there is no plural for the word is that they are solitary animals. Maybe because there were never more than one around, there was no need for a word for more than one word. I hope no one minds that this comment is not exactly about the reading. lol --Jessica Lawrie<br />
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Oh! It was also very interesting to me that it was believed the people were heavily tattooed. For a people so in tune with nature, it seems they would not want to harm their bodies, which are part of nature. --Jessica Lawrie<br />
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The section that discusses how the Creeks came to where they are begins by saying the earth opened in the West "where its mouth is", and the people came out of it. It then says "The earth became angry." I'm wondering if this is originated with yellowstone and the active volcanics there. In the ancient Roman world at Cumae there is volcanic activity where the sulfur comes up through cracks in the earth. It was thought to be the mouth to the underworld. It's an interesting possible parallel. --Gracie Ofslager<br />
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I would have to agree with Jessica about the connection of the story of Genesis and the Iroquois Creation story. It gives evidence that while these people were separated by thousands of miles, their stories were still interconnected and must mean that they originated from the same place. At the same time there are very noticeable differences. I guess my question would be how did these peoples culture change so drastically that their stories would differ to such a large degree? Another question is why is there such a large gap between the Iroquois story and the Seneca story? Are they meant to be the same but translated differently or are there just that many variations in the story? –Virginia Stratton<br />
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I thought it was interesting that in the Iroquois Creation Story, The Great Spirit ordered the Great Turtle to catch his daughter, pregnant with illegitimate child, on it's back, which is what she built the earth on. Yet in the Seneca Creation Story, the chief's ill daughter fell first on waterfowl, who wished to save her and were not ordered to do so. Finally, the chief's daughter was passed onto the back of the Great Turtle. Also, I was curious who both stories differed so in who created the earth, since the Seneca version, it is actually the animals and not the daughter. However, the Turtle being "the base" for the construction of the earth, is consistent in both stories, which ties into the close relationship between Native Americans and nature. Quincey Garcia<br />
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I also noticed what Jenna S. wrote about regarding the connection between Genesis, the Christian based Creation story, The Woman Who Fell from the Sky based on teh Seneca Creation story, adn the Iroquois Creation story. The fact that all three stories contained 2 brothers, one evil and one good, who end up fighting to the death provides a strong and important connection between the Native Americans and the Christians. This connection is vital because all three groups introduce death and struggle as a part of human life. Quincey Garcia<br />
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I can't get my head out of Chekilli's narration of the travelings of the Creeks. At first when I was reading his speech I thought the story to be written in such an elementary way relative to the other readings, but then I started to visualize how he spoke the story, and it's kind of coming to life for me. I feel like I'm in an Indian Hut listening to an old guy tell what he knew of legends and such. --Gracie Ofslager<br />
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In comparing the two creation stories, Iroquois Creation Story and "The Woman Who Fell From the Sky", I found it interesting that the Iroquois Creation story told that the woman was thrown down from the sky by her father because she had been "pregnant by an illicit connection". Then in the other story, "The Woman Who Fell From the Sky" she had just been taken ill and in the concern of all the people, and her father in particular, they removed the tree in effort to cure her of her ailment by hanging her from in when she was pushed down by another. Pregnancy in this second story is ignored, it is instead assumed that nature itself impregnated the woman and her daughter (she tells her daughter to only look to the West when picking potatoes, then the time she looked to the East the West Wing entered her and she got pregnant). I just found it interesting the very different role of pregnancy and even of the father of the children, in general, played in these stories. --Christen Booher<br />
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In examining further into the creation stories, "The Woman Who Fell From the Sky" and the Iroquois Creation Story, I focus on the twins. In the story "The Woman Who Fell From the Sky" I deemed the role of the twins to be far more significant and to have made an actual impact on the formation of nature. The balance of positive and negative attributes each contributed to the expanding of the island worked well, but is understandable that the battle of each brother to have things his own way would lead to a fight between the two twins. In the Iroquious Creation Story, I felt that the twins' role was much less notable, the brothers' fight seemed almost meaningless, especially to have been the cause of the death of a brother(which begs the question of how good could one actually be to have murdered his brother over past grievances?) Nevertheless, after the "good" brother released all of the animals that had been captured and held captive by his twin, combined with the inevitable hatred still felt by the "good" brother for "evil" brother that he had knowingly killed their mother, the twins began to fought. With this fight, which took place all throughout the island, arose the only eminent impact the brothers actually had in this story: from the varied tones in their voices while passing different places during the fight resulted in the formation of different languages. The first story was more of a creation story of how Earth and its beings came to place, while the other said much less about how things came to be beyond the original formation of the island. --Christen Booher<br />
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In the story, “The Woman Who Fell from the Sky,” I found it ironic that the chief’s daughter was ill in heaven but when she was pushed down to earth, she was able to be cured when she couldn’t be cured in heaven with many attempts.<br />
And how was life made when the woman somehow conceived a daughter and then that daughter conceived male twins? Did the twins make more humans like the way they made the animals and nature? -- Eun Yi<br />
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The two stories, “The Woman Who Fell from the Sky” and “In the Beginning” are similar in the way they tell how life was first originated. [One from the Seneca religion and the other from the Christian religion] They contrast in ways that one was a woman who was first placed on earth and the other a man. Also, in the Seneca’s story it seems as if the twins were God because they made the animals and nature (or not?) -- Eun Yi<br />
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I found it interesting that many Indian tribes believed that the world was created on the back of a giant sea turtle and that the Iroquis and the Seneca's story of how the earth was created was similar. -- Eun Yi<br />
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After reading the different creation stories in chapter one of Johnson, I realized that each one of the stories is directly correlated to both the culture that wrote them, and also the time period in which they were written. For example, the Seneca's creation story, "The Woman Who Fell from the Sky," didn't make much sense to me, but then I thought about the fact that we are only what we know. The Native Americans used their knowledge of what they knew at the time in order to make up a creation story that made sense in their eyes. The turtle for example, was something the Native Americans were familiar with, thus they chose to incorporate it into the story about how life came to be. In the Christian version of creation, "Genesis," it is apparent that the society of that time period believed that creation was way too complex for merely mortal men to have been responsible for. Therefore, they put all the credit towards a much higher being of intelligent design since they were not able to fathom the unexplained. <br />
~Megan Tisdelle~<br />
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I think for a topic of discussion, we should explore some different creation stories from other parts of the world (and even in the same parts of the world) so that we can compare and contrast the various ways in which certain cultures and societies explained what they did not know, creation. It would be interesting to see the certain similarities among some of them, and at the same time it would be interesting to see the differences among the stories in which the people lived relatively close to one another, like another Indian tribe in North America for example. <br />
~Megan Tisdelle~<br />
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This might be a little off topic, but I kept thinking about it as I was reading about the Native American's beliefs and storys. My geography teacher mentioned in his lecture today that 'gods' used to be used to explain things that people didn't understand. For example, when it wasn't understood why the sun rose on one side and set on another, the explaination was the "sun god" dragged the sun across the sky every day. Now that we know about the earth's axis, how it's titled, and how the earth rotates, we don't need any other explaination. So it makes sense to me that the Indians had some of the beliefs and thoughts that they did.<br />
P.S. Does anyone know how to enable cookies?<br />
--Megan Malecha<br />
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I found it interesting that in both “The Woman Who Fell from the Sky” and “Iroquois Creation Story,” the stories ended with brother in a brawl. However, I agree with Christen that the role of the twins in “The Woman Who Fell from the Sky” was far more significant in the creation of nature and such. It seems that the twins also created hardship and unhappiness because the one brother disputed what the other brother had made saying that the people who would come to live there would live too easily and be too happy. The “Iroquois Creation Story” spawned the branches of good and evil with the two brothers. “The Woman Who Fell from the Sky” told more of nature and the land created, whereas The “Iroquois Creation Story” told more of how humans act. <br />
I also think that exploring different creation stories from other parts of the world would be an interesting discussion topic. <br />
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