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Deprecated: header(): Passing null to parameter #3 ($response_code) of type int is deprecated in /home/umwhisto/public_html/mcclurken/wiki/includes/WebResponse.php on line 38 https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/api.php?action=feedcontributions&feedformat=atom&user=199.111.69.111McClurken Wiki - User contributions [en]2026-09-18T22:37:26ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.22.0https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_2_Questions/Comments328--Week 2 Questions/Comments2008-01-24T12:56:10Z<p>199.111.69.111: </p>
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<div>I found it interesting that the concept of a separation between freedom and suffrage that existed during the Post-Civil War period is very well upheld assumption today. --Justin Mattos<br />
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The gradual disenfranchisement and barring from political participation of black women seems to be an interesting example of white society's influence on black culture. --Justin Mattos<br />
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What were the similarities between the political participation of black women and political participation of the women of immigrant groups and other minorities? --Justin Mattos<br />
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I thought it was very interesting in the reading where the author discussed the concept of family being the "unifying thread" that bound African Americans together. She says that "the notion of family members as having a mutual and continuing responsibility to help each other and to prepare for hard times" (pg 125). Wouldn't that have been true of any family during the reconstruction period, black or white? ~~Mary Beth C<br />
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I agree with Justin that it is interesting to see how the African American women were gradually pushed out of the political arena after having been so active and vocal. I think it is funny how the women would "take sactions" (pg 135),such as abstaining from sexual relations, against men that voted for the Democratic party! ~~ Mary Beth C<br />
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The concept that I found most intriguing overall in the reading was the conflicting views of freedom and suffrage being an individual possession versus communal. This led to the different treatment of people who voted against the popular view. To someone who thought individuals were responsible to only themselves they would view hostility against other voters as opposing the libreal democratic process whereas in the African American community, where suffrage was viewed as a collective possesion, it was right to be hostile towards those who threatened the well being of the whole community. -Karly Kovalcik<br />
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Although the difference may be slight on paper, there is a huge difference between the African American woman's perspective that her husband votes for her in a way that represents her political beliefs and ideologies versus a white woman's perspective that her husband voted for her without consulting with her because he acted individually in a way that was best for his wife and children. -Karly Kovalcik<br />
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After reading the article I made a decision that I had previously I had been flip-flopping between. I now believe that there needs to be subcategories of the women's history to include at least, but not limiting to, African American Women's history. The history seems to be so different just from the article we had to read. Such as, the black women feeling that they were equally part of the vote that the black men casted. I don't remember ever hearing about that before, at least with white women, but then again I haven't taken a women's history course before either -- Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I agree completely with Ashley. After reading this article, it has become clear to me that women's history needs definite subcategories. But that just makes me thing about how many subcategories can we really delve into? I mean, if you think of how many different subject classes are offered to us within our history department, all of which normally pertain to "men's history," do we need all of those categories for women's history as well? - Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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The other thing I found interesting in the article by Elsa Brown was just how the women and men viewed the 'sense of the vote' at first. Such as the vote casted by the men was equally the women's vote, and how the black republican politicians were able to get (well, it seems like the article was meaning quite a few) many of the black women to reject black male democratic voters. Also, just the fact the black women to fight to even get to vote in Richmond's First African Baptist Church astounded me with the way the article was talking about community earlier on. It definitely feels like slowly, but surely, the women were losing the political say they had through their men. -- Ashley Wilkins<br />
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In chapter 8, Brown gives examples of the freed African American trying to regain the importance of ''the family''. The church was impacted by the new seating integration, families lived together in support, and even none relatives were taken into homes that had room in racial solidarity. Single and widowed women lived together, sharing incomes and responsibility over child care. In a way, black women were improving and strengthening the idea of ''the family'' that white society held such virtue in. By living as sisters with none relatives, but former "fellow servants", African American women created an even stronger sense of female solidarity and sisterhood than white women. While many white women of the time looked down on excessive charity (even to single women with children), black women were united. I believe the lacking sense of sisterhood among all white women and failure to unite with African American women hurt them in the struggle for suffrage.--Jackie Reed<br />
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The experience of slavery created a need to embrace other African Americans, so it is not surprising that they reached out to the community of African Americans during the Reconstruction Era and beyond. It was family and a sense of community that held African Americans together. "Whether one eats or starves in this setting depends on the available resources within the community as a whole."(126) This essay reminded me of a conversation that I had with a senior African American woman in Georgia, who told me that during the violence of the 1950s communities of African Americans posted neighborhood watches. According to the story, white males, sometimes intoxicated, would drive through black communities seeking victims. The men took on the responsibility of protecting the citizens within the community. This women said that they seldom left the neighborhood due to potential violence, and there was no need to because school, church, and markets were all within the perimeter of the black community.--LisaM<br />
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The concept that the freedom and political liberty of U.S. citizens was not synonymous (130) seems a blatent contradition to present day eyes. As we all know, the black codes in the Reconstruction Era disenfranchised large populations of blacks. Brown's essay states that black women felt they had a stake in the man's choice in voting. I recall in Georgia history, the sizeable female black population was considered a threat if allowed to vote; black women were inclined to vote Republican, and the white population of the South were Democrats. In some cases, women's politics played out in the form of organizations that opposed women's suffrage; they felt that women's suffrage undermined white supremacy.--LisaM<br />
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I agree with Karly about how there is a huge difference between the African American woman's perspective that her husband votes for her representing her political beliefs and to a white woman's perspective that the husband voted for her without consulting with her. That he voted for who he though was best for him and his wife and children. I think it shows that even though all men are superior when it comes to women, African American men have more respect to their wives then a white man does to his. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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Something that I found interesting in the reading was when it discussed how blacks were active participants throughout the state constitutional convention. African Americans both male and female crowded the galleries speaking their opinions letting their voices be heard. It says " White women, for example, certainly on occasion sat in the convention's gallery as visitors silently observing the proceedings..."(pg129). African American women were standing besides the men that "represented" them and took part in trying to make changes, while the white women sat there quietly letting their men make decisions for them. I just find this funny because you would think a white women would have a little more part in politics; but I guess an African American woman didn't have much to loose if she spoke out of turn or defended her own ideas. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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I thought it was interesting that Brown discussed the varying ways to interpret the word “freedom.” For black women, freedom was the ability to remain close to the community and help the family. She stated that for black women, “the charity of this penniless negress in receiving another poverty-stricken creature under her roof was characteristic of the freedmen” (p. 126). On the other hand, from the perspective of white men and women, freedom was the ability to get ahead and better oneself. For example, Brown states, “freedpeople should adopt naturally those habits of thrift, diligence, and acquisitiveness that were a cornerstone of free labor ideology” (p.127). This highlights an important difference in perspective. --Jessica Kilday<br />
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Brown talks a lot about the difference between freedom and political liberty. There was debate on whether or not civil right should be an “inherent corollary to freedom.” She mentions the views of Gibson when discussing this point, in which he suggests, “persons who had not yet learned to regulate their lives appropriately—to be thrifty, industrious, and diligent—were not yet capable of responsibly exercising liberty. Those not capable of political liberty would rely on those capable of it to protect their freedom” (p 130). In the time following the civil war, women did not have the right to vote, given this statement, is it because society did not view them as “capable of the responsibility?” Moreover, is this, to some extent true today, with the definition of “capable”, not applying to gender, but to age? --Jessica Kilday<br />
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In Browns essay I thought it was interesting on page 129 that during debates white women were silent and the African Americans were not. Instead they participated and loudly; however Brown doesn't say whether the African Amercians were men or women or both. Why were the white women silent? <br />
Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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What was also intersting to me in Browns essay was that Southern Black women and men debated the issue of woman suffrage (131). I assume this is because Black men were in the same boat as women in general because they didn't have much rights either so they understood the frustration of not having certain rights and in this case the right to vote. <br />
Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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In response to your assumption Michelle, I'm going to agree somewhat, and say that black men also debated the issue of women's suffrage, because they too had to struggle to have a political voice. They had a difficult time obtaining the right to vote themselves, so they also had to persuade women to help them and back them up while trying to get a shot at the vote. This, of course, led to a massive debate over whether or not black men or women as a gender should be granted the right to vote first, and caused quite a stir when it was granted to men. There were quite a few men, though, like Frederick Douglass I believe, who supported the woman's right to vote. They understood what it was like to be considered politically naive, so I'm sure that helped in some way. - Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I found it interesting that during the Reconstruction Era while men and women who had been slaves focused on finding the families that they had been separated from the white society surrounding these families found something wrong with the fact the black community latched onto the families they had around them. It seemed odd that they would have such a negative view on the fact that these people had such a strong desire to help out family members or even simply other people who experienced the difficulties of slavery with them. I would have thought that this would have been something that would have been admired instead of mocked. They were helping others out which was something that I had understood was the duty of any Christian, especially during this time period where the majority of the nation was Christian. Was it simply because they were a different skin color than them? Or was it because many white people during this period were so focused on improving their lot in life that they couldn't have cared less about how the others were doing? - Elizabeth Frank<br />
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The reading described something called collective responsibility, a characteristic of the 19th century southern African American community. Collective responsibility is described as the community recognizing that every man and woman was responsible for one another - that their success as freedmen depended on the community's ability to ban together. African Americans viewed kinship very differently from white Americans. To blacks, family did not just end with immediate blood lines, but something that was accrued through common hardship. It is a cultural norm, even today, in the black community to call one another "brother" and "sister." ~Juliann Boyles<br />
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Something else that I thought was very telling of American society was the author's remark on the white reaction to the generous nature of the African American community. In a very capitalist driven society, based on the free labor ideology, many are incapable of understanding why someone would purposefully hold themselves back from accumulating more wealth. It is ingrained in our heads as Americans that the harder we work, the more money we will make, and the more success and fulfillment we will achieve. The idea of collective responsibility did not, and still does not fit with the American dream. I wish it did, for we are all connected to one another. No one person is a complete independent actor. ~Juliann Boyles<br />
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I enjoyed reading how although the black women in communities were denied the right to actually cast a vote in elections they still made their political opinions known. I especially enjoyed reading that these women would threaten their husbands in order to insure they voted in a way that represented not only his opinions but also hers as well! - Elizabeth Frank<br />
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What I found interesting in Brown's essay was that while African Americans were TECHNICALLY exteneded all the freedoms and liberties afforded the white male populous, there were still social norms and restraints (that were more powerful than any amendment) that constrained their freedoms. These could be seen explicitly in the south, and more subtly in the North but they definetly existed. However, even in the time of Jim Crow laws, and a time when women (white or black) still could not vote, in the African American community black women had real power. On page 130 Brown talks about how black culture had both an internal and external political structure. In the internal structure black women had just as much power as the men. So why was this not the case with the white culture of the day? Did the conditions within slavery equalize black men and women, is this something that carried over from their culture in Africa, or were black women simply more strong willed and outspoken? - Landon Davis<br />
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Another point worth discussing from the reading was the incredibly gernerous and nuclear support system African Americans set up during reconstruction. Brown talks about how the ex-slaves would depend on one another, for food, shelter, and money. Sometimes they would even go so far as to share bank accounts. Although I admire their genorosity and envy their sense of community, I have to wonder if African American Society as a whole in the long run would not have been better off if the individuals would have put their extra money to a productive use for themselves individually, rather than dontating it to the poor. If families with extra money(time or space)would have invested this money - in businesses, or in education for their offspring the African American community may ascended to equality alot sooner than they did(assuming they have). - Landon Davis<br />
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The white characterization of newly freed blacks as "lazy and shiftless" because of their sense of collective responsibility was simply ignorance of their own history. During the Revolutionary Period and Founding, it was not uncommon for people to quarter soldiers and economically help one another due to oppression from their common foe - the British. The individualistic and free labor ideology in white America really took hold with the opening of the frontier. As an oppressed people, it was only natural that the black community would bond in such a way in the face of the oppression and discrimination which they would continue to face for another 100+ years. Phil N.<br />
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Another note from late 18th, early 19th century: As far as whites had been concerned at first, only the middle and upper classes of white males had access to the ballot box. Freedom and suffrage were not linked until this time, starting with the Jacksonian period. Before that, almost 200 years had elapsed in which the franchise being the domain of the upper classes was never seriously challenged. - Phil N.<br />
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I think Brown's piece brings to light a clear division between Black and White women in this time period: active vs. passive. Black women were just as active in their communities as Black men were. Their work was respected and acknowledged in the community while White women were conforming to a societal ideal that discouraged the "work" that was alongside men. After the civil war there was a window for African Americans to actively shape their own place in American society and the women were a very strong force in that. I wondered while reading if this difference of racial culture from the post-civil war period is infiltrated into American culture today? -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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I agree with Amanda on how African American men treated their wives more respectively with voting than white men did. African American men consulted with their wives about who was best for the position for them and their children. White men just voted for whom they believed was best for the position without talking to their wives. Could the reason for this be because African Americans were treated unequally or naturally they just had more respect for their wives? –Ashley Scutari<br />
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What I also found interesting was how black Republican politicians in the south “took women’s participation seriously and publicly encouraged them to abstain from sexual relations with any man who voted Democratic.” I think that is getting too much into the personal life. Some women actually left their husbands or broke off the wedding until the election was over. Black Republican politicians in a way could brain-wash these women in the South. Could this be because the politicians are encouraging women to participate and are showing acknowledgment towards them? –Ashley Scutari<br />
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Reading this article just emphasizes how much more of a struggle African American women had, especially in the political realm. Some historians tend to forget that black women had to struggle because not only were they of another race, but they were also of the "weaker" gender. So reading about how much they actually did, and how active they were in politics, it shows just how impressive and how determined they were to make a stand and get something accomplished. Granted, things didn't happen overnight, but for those women who actively participated in making a voice for themselves they showed just how much some women really wanted to be able to have a say. I think that makes sense. If it doesn't, ask me in class. - Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I found it interesting the different ways that women found to become involved in politics before they had the right to vote. It seems as though women became truly invested in their husband's political stance and tried to influence him. It seems much more as though the men had to think of the group when they cast their vote, rather than simply voting for themselves. It's almost as though the women held the men accountable for their votes. --Katie Nelson<br />
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I noticed that a sense of community seemed to be an important factor in discussing southern black women's political history. Community seems to be incredibly important to southern black women during this time. It is interesting to think of the many different communities to which they likely belonged, and the influence that they had on each of these communities. --Katie Nelson<br />
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I found it very interesting that freed slaves were NOT most enthused about the possibility to work for pay, but rather what meant more to them was mobility... and therefore to pursue the enjoyment of life by minimizing the "time spent at work." - Cat<br />
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One thing this reading definitely highlights is that historians must be very vigilant about the reflection of their own social assumptions and political expectations in their work. - Cat<br />
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I was surprised the author said women were "encouraged" to withhold sex and marriage in an effort to get their husbands to vote Republican. Who was encouraging them? I thought this type of female power wielding was looked down upon by society. - Cat<br />
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As I was reading about the Black community and it's power over the individual I began thinking about collective women. Will it ever be possible to unite American women politically in a fashion similar to the Black community so that by voting the "wrong" way it would be a disgrace towards women of all races? That the Black community understood that "the issue...was not autonomy but responsibility" (136) played such a strong role in shaping the Reconstruction era. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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I may have missed it, but what were the views of the Democrats? Why were women so opposed to Democrats? Women were carrying weapons and withholding sex, and men feared them. One Woman said that “If a colored man votes the Democratic ticket he has sold himself”. I am interested to know what exactly the Democratic views were and why women were so disturbed with them. Was it just colored women or were white women opposed to the Democrats as well? <br />
Women have not always been able to vote, however we see in Brown’s essay that they make there feelings heard and well known.—Nikole Wellman <br />
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Beverly Nash was a state senator in 1872 and proposed a woman’s suffrage amendment to the state constitution. Women were not allowed to vote yet but they are holding a political office. How is this so? --Nikole Wellman<br />
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What is a Whipper?—Nikole Wellman<br />
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I found the quote "Their fates were intimately tied together; individual freedom could be achieved only through collective autonomy" to be very frustrating. Not only is it bad enough a woman is considered a salve but in order for her to gain freedom everyone else must be freed as well. I can't even comprehend what that have been like. We're thankful to have atleast some individualism in society today. --- Rose Ferguson<br />
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I found it quite ironic to read about Elizabeth Botume and Beaufort South Carolina which is where I'm from and my parents currently live. If you told me today that in the 2008 presidential election I could not vote due to my gender I'd most likely laugh and then scream in your face. --- Rose Ferguson<br />
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I like that how even though women were not allowed to vote they still had a great influence over who won the elections. The power that they seemed to have over their husbands in certain areas was impressive. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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I thought that it was interesting that the girls of Cherokee Female Seminary all identified themselves as Cherokee eventhough they had different social, economic and ancestral backgrounds, even with identifying the same they still created a class system from economic status. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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I was really intrigued by the discussion of how those in power expected the free blacks to remain in one place and be a stable working force, but blacks worked against this by moving in order to be in places that they wanted to be or in order to be closer to their families. In African American history, we learned that movement was one thing that was really valued by slaves, and often used as a form of resistance. I wonder if the reason they moved around so much was that it was the only way they could truly feel free. --Angela Scott<br />
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I agree with Kellye about the influential power of women. I feel that this is a power that women have wielded throughout the ages. One can see the influence that mistresses had over powerful kings in history, and even in our own history, you can see it in Abigail Adam's correspondence with her husband while he was at the constitutional convention. --Angela Scott<br />
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I think that the reason that so many politicians were encouraging women to withhold sex from their husbands because they realized that it would be quite an effective way to make husbands pay attention and change their votes. --Angela Scott<br />
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I wonder what or if the future of African Americans would've been different if the newly freed slaves had not been so mobile and settled down and fit into the white capitalistic model of earninig the highest wage possible. - Emely A.<br />
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I found the quotation of Congressman Bayne very interesting. It did not initially sit well with me. I first felt that his view on women was just as misogynistic-ally characteristic of the time. But after a closer look, I agree with Brown, who says that it is impossible to know Bayne's true meaning/intent when talking about women's "right to stay home". But perhaps he was purposely fighting for a middle ground in order to help out women, and especially black women. By using this terminology, it could have been possible for him to trick or sway some narrow-minded white congressmen into the belief that women also share the inherent right of suffrage. --Jackie Reed<br />
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I liked how at the beginning of her essay, Brown described the African American community as having a mutual responsibility to look out for one another, and this idea extended past just blood relatives. Everyone in the black community considered themselves brothers and sisters, and they knew that in order to overcome the many challenges they faced during and after Reconstruction, they must do so as a united community and not as individuals. -Marilyn<br />
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Before reading Brown's essay, I didn't realize that African American women were as involved in politics as they were. Brown talks about the "internal political arena" that black women participated in by attending public forums, parades, rallies, and conventions. Brown states that, "African American women and men understood the vote to be a collective possession, not an individual one, and furthermore that African American women...viewed African American men's vote as equally theirs." (135) Like others have already said, it surprises me that African American men considered their wives' opinions concerning politics and voting. -Marilyn</div>199.111.69.111https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_1_Questions/Comments328--Week 1 Questions/Comments2008-01-17T06:36:21Z<p>199.111.69.111: </p>
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<div>This is not a real post.<br />
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I agree.<br />
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You're both wrong. -- Sarah H.<br />
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I found it extremely interesting in "Challenging Dichotomies in Women's History" that fatherhood was not seen as a natural thing but instead was viewed as being "social". Yet for women being a mother was a "natural" phenomenon. I would have thought that it would have also been seen as natural for the man to also assume a fatherly role despite his involvement in the public sphere. Is this because the men were already doing so much that being a fatherly figure just couldn't always be an important role? Or is it because if they were expected to show a more emotional side of them they would be considered less of a man because they wouldn't be acting tough? - Elizabeth L. Frank<br />
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I was surprised to read in "Rethinking the Position of Black Women in American Women's History" that some Black Women scholars feel that even today the importance of black women and their roles in society are being overlooked in the fields of women's studies! I understood that it took a little while for scholars to realize that they had to look at the difference ethnicities differently as far as their experiences in society but I had no idea that there were aspects that were still being overlooked. I also liked the statement Leslie Alexander made in the first sentence of the last paragraph of the essay that in order to truly understand the experiences of women that scholars must become willing to explore the differences of the cultures instead of simply ignoring the fact that they are different. I thought that was a very good point. - Elizabeth L. Frank<br />
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The theme of the four essays is to tackle the question, what is the meaning and importance in studying women’s history? In the first essay, Haulman points out that the study of women’s history has changed over time. It first focused on the measurable contributions of women to American society and then shifted to focus more on the private lives of women in their home life. -- Jessica Kilday<br />
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It is interesting to note in the second essay that Bock brings up many different theories with which to compare the role of men and women in society. When examining the dichotomies suggested it is interesting to consider not only how women have affected society but also how the norms of society influenced the role of women. -- Jessica Kilday<br />
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More than one of the essays point out that many subjects in American women’s history has been concentrated on white middle class women. It is important to look at the role of culture and ethnicity in women’s studies because all of these factors affect the experiences and challenges of women in society. The study of women is not static; it is changing, and shaped by many different factors, and it is important to consider more than one. -- Jessica Kilday<br />
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In the essay "Women of Color and the Rewriting of Western History," I found it interesting that the women's liberation movement in the United States was mainly about gender oppression. The movements were middle class white women who wrote about the history of white women in the West. Though, women of color looked towards third-world liberation movements for support instead of women's liberation movements. Only if women of all different ethnicities joined together earlier would women's rights have developed earlier? Also women of color's gender oppression was different than white women's gender oppression in that colored women had to struggle with race and class unlike white women who mostly struggled with class. --Ashley Scutari<br />
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In the essay "Challenging Dichotomies in Women's History," I found it interesting in the first point Nature vs. Culture that fatherhood was not seen as natural but social. Women scholars challenged this by stating that women are therefore seen as "nature always having a social meaning" and nature and culture mean different things in different times. Women are the ones that physically have the baby, but that does not mean they have to be subject to the male sexes. Men are also taught to grow up as a strong non-emotional person. This could also be why fatherhood is seen as social instead of natural. <br />
--Ashley Scutari<br />
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In "Challenging Dichotomies in Women's History" Gisela Bock discusses how a woman's nature were child bearing, carring for the family, and taking care of things around the house originated from Europe; but what was once seen as nature is now seen as work. I I find this very true today, because a lot of stay home mothers consider their position as a mother and care taker of the home a job, however without pay as Bock mentions an "unpaid work." (pg 9) Also on the other hand there are many women that work and women for years have competed with the men in their wages but because of their sex and not who does the job best. Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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Leslie M. Alexander's essay mostly discusses black women and how their history is different from that of white womens history, which it is, but in today's society of white and black women are they still that different? Is this generation of black women still largley influenced by past generations in how they view themselves as black women? She also goes on to say that in order to understand black women you have to understand the black community. (pg 21) I think understanding any comminity that in its self is a different culture you have to understand their culture and way of life before understanding that community of people. The United States is full of all kinds of culturally different people. Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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In "Challenging Dichotomies in Women's History" I found the second point, Work v. Family interesting because it looks at "women's work" and how it relates men as the "workers" and women as "non-workers". Women who are are non working mothers are still seen as "non-workers" today. I think that the stay at home mother profession should be given more respect in the professional world. Many stay at home mothers work just as hard if not harder than those in careers outside the home. --Kellye Sorber<br />
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In "Women of Color and the Rewriting of Western History" Castaneda discusses the problems faced by scholers of color in their work to properly show the history of thier ancestors. It was interseting that these scholars struggle to accurately portray these women and not let assumptions get in the way thier research. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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What I found interesting after reading all of the essays is that I still had no idea how historians should study women's history. From what I read I got the feeling that the study of women's history had the same problem as other thematic studies of history: how do you study the history of a single facet of society without studying the history of all of the other facets? --Justin Mattos<br />
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I agree completely with Justin. The editor raises a very valid point in the beginning before we even approach the essays, and that is "how do you study women's history?" After reading all of the essays, it's clear that it is very difficult to lump all of women's history together to study. There are so many different aspects of women's history to take into account that it almost seems impossible to study it all at once without leaving something out. Then again, isn't that what happens with history in general? When we're taught history, ignoring that men are typically the central characters, think of how much is left out so that we can stay on task for a single semester on a topic that could seem quite specific in the first place. -Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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An unfortunate conclusion from "Rethinking the Position of Black Women in American Women's History" was the need for the undermining of an important aspect of the Women's Movement in order for Women's History in order to be properly studied. --Justin Mattos<br />
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After reading "Challenging Dichotomies in Women's History" by Gisela Bock, I realized how much of a connection our society's conception of women has with the writing of its history: how can women's history be properly studied without first changing our perceptions of women? If the study of women's history is part of the changing of our perception of women then should we expect its study to be apolitical? --Justin Mattos<br />
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In Kate Haukman’s essay, she talks about the difficulty of studying women without examining gender history as well. If this is the case, which Bock also believed it is, then how can it be that the study of men’s history seems often less related to gender roles? - Cat Debelius<br />
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In Bock’s essay, I found particularly interesting her comment that in today’s world we still reserve the terms “working women” and “working mother” for employed women only, overlooking, even with our language, the fact that being a mother is work. I guess this just goes to show you how truly slanted society still in is valuing men’s work over women’s. - Cat Debelius<br />
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Castaneda discusses the challenges of studying women of color. When to place a person within historical perspective, is it more important to explore their race or gender first? - Cat Debelius<br />
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In her essay, "Rethinking the Position of Black Women in American Women's History," Leslie Alexander makes a statement near the end saying, "The challenge remains for us to analyze Black women through their own eyes rather than through the lens of whiteness and opression." (p.22). My question, is does anyone think that is truly possible? Most of what scholars have on Black women's history has been recorded by whites, and for a great deal of time, by white men. I believe that now we as historians should be able to look at this history through the eyes of those who experienced it, but a large chunk of this history has been warped and skewed in some way. Does anyone think it's possible to correct that? Or, regardless of the tools and resources we have today, are things always going to be interpreted in a more biased sense than they should be? -Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I found it extremely interesting in "Challenging Dichotomies in Women's History" that motherhood was a natural phenomenon, however fatherhood was not seen as a natural at all. That was seen as social. Yet for women being a mother was a "natural" phenomenon. I have always assumed that fatherhood was a natural phenomenon like motherhood despite their involvement in the social sphere. The child is just as much apart of him as it is the mother. My question is if this is because men were so involved in society there wasn't time? Or was it the fact that he could not show his nurturing/loving side? -- Amanda Taub<br />
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While reading the Dichotomies essay I found it amazing that fatherhood was seen as “social.” I always felt that motherhood and fatherhood were both ‘natural,’ but now I’m not sure. I have a feeling this was not worldwide though, since each culture is different. I’m curious how other cultures viewed mother- and fatherhood. –Ashley W.<br />
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I did not realize until reading these essays just how many problems are in the field of women’s history. From the sounds of the essays there have been problems getting the field established and then getting the field of women’s history to cover all women, regardless of race and class. It sounded like it was getting better, but still has lots of room for improvement. – Ashley W.<br />
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I found Bock's view of the sex and gender dichotomy to be particularly interesting. I never considered that the distincion of sex from gender would restate the nature versus nurture issue. I considered this distinction to be helpful to show that many feminine characteristics should not be considered inherent nor subordinate. Bock argues that these simple definitions only hurt by reinforcing the differences between the sexes and therefore polarizing the study of women. Like other studies of history, the study of women should be a continuous effort without the pause to separate a women's world into what is physiological from what is cultural. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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What I am already finding interesting with the study of women’s history versus other studies of history that I have made is its social and active participation in the present. I feel like the goal in my other history classes has been to recreate a time or event in the past, examine cause and effect, draw similarities, etc. but of things that happened in the past and stay in the past. Whereas so far I feel like women’s study is looking into the past as well but in the attempt to create “a change towards more freedom and justice” (Bock) in the present. -karly kovalcik<br />
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I found Bock’s discussion of equality vs. difference really interesting. She wonders why it is that “difference” is attributed to women and “equality” to men. Which makes me wonder if establishing equality in history is the main goal of women’s history, does making it a “different” field facilitate this or just reinforce dichotomies? When the women suffragists were fighting for the right to vote they weren’t voting for a “woman’s” vote they were just looking for the right to vote. I think there are the same inherent problems that we found with segregation and the “separate but equal” philosophy. -karly kovalcik<br />
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One question posed by Bock's essay that really stood out for me was the use of the words "equality" and "justice" when applied to separate genders. It was interesting that for men, these two words complement each other but for women, they are in opposition. The focus seems to be on their context in comparing history and then gender-focused history. In the traditional sense of history with a "male" focus, equality and justice are words with a positive focus, as words that have translated into positive action. When history is focused on women, equality and justice become negative, words that have been almost unachievable goals in that context. To me, it seems like it comes back to whether we are unwilling to look at history that shows us in an unfavorable light, just like the question with looking at racial minorities' history in America. --Kendall Haring<br />
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I never stopped to consider how feminism and women's history seems so focused on white middle-class women until I read Castaneda and Alexander's essays. There seems to be little representation of minority women when talking about American women's history. It seems like a race issue but is it more the case of white American women keeping minorities and race issues away from feminism or is it, as Alexander claims, that women, especially black women, are less concerned with their gender and more with race issues in history? --Kendall Haring<br />
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I agree with many others who have mentioned that parenthood always seemed as if it should be natural for both parties, however it is seen as natural only for women. How much does this have to do with the unique experience of women in pregnancy? Pregnancy is a natural experience reserved only for women, which might be why women see parenthood as natural. However, for men, they do not get to experience pregnancy, and only bond with the child once it is born. This may help to create the sensation that parenthood is natural for women but not for me. --Angela Scott <br />
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I found the essay "Rethinking the Position of Black Women in American Women's History" by Leslie M. Alexander to be both interesting and thought provoking. At one point Alexander points out that it is important to understand the Black community in order to understand the Black woman. I think that this denotes an importance of understanding culture that can be applied to studying all women. Isn't it important to understand the culture that a person comes from in order to understand the individual itself? All individuals exist within a given culture and are influenced by cultural norms and roles. --Katie Nelson<br />
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In Bock's essay "Challenging Dichotomies in Women's History," I found the discussion of equality v. difference very interesting. How do you decide which is more important equality or difference between the sexes? It seems as though we need to find a happy medium where we can recognize that men and women are different but equal. --Katie Nelson<br />
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I agree with Karly's comment about how our study of women's history might affect the present. In studying women's history, I wonder how prior assumptions and ideas might change in knowing the true facts behind various women's movements. --Angela Scott<br />
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After reading all the essays, I have found that the field of women's history is not nearly as simplistic as I had thought. I never realized all the issues that could arise in the field of women's history, it is so much more than simply the study of women. --Angela Scott<br />
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I thought Alexander's essay concerning race offered an interesting viewpoint. I agree that it is essential to consider race and culture first in order to understand how the concept of gender applies to the lives of African American women. I think this is an important point to keep in mind when evaluating women and the men they interact with throughout this course. Shouldn't the study of women take a multidimensional approach because of the labels other than "woman" that shape what direction their lives will take? -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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I agree with Kate Haulman in the point that studying women gave a new perspective on history. it's history through the eyes of a new group, a group that makes up half (arguably even more) of society. Women have always been there, at home, supproting their husbands and silently witnessing their activities. There is a lot that they have to say that gives us an even greater insight in events that we alread knew about. -Emely Amaya<br />
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I agree with Emely. Women's history is important, because life is not just about the big events, but about about the small, everyday moments that shape a person's life - and so is the way of history. If the study of history was only limited to major military or political victories or losses - and the men that had a part in them - a whole, deeper understanding of a culture would just be lost. Sometimes a look into the basic, ordinary events of life can be the most telling of a civilization, and women have always played a major part in that. ~Juliann<br />
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I found several very interesting points in Haulman's essay. The most interesting and thought provoking for me was when she was discussing the definition of the word woman and female. What I gleaned from her discussion on this topic is that the word woman is constantly changing in meaning, as women socially evolve. For instance she gave the example of a man knitting. She said if a man knits is he really a man, for he has taken on "woman's work". I have always thought of man and woman in a strictly biological sense, so this really made me think.- Landon Davis<br />
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In Bock's essay I thought her section about intergration vs. autonomy was a little off base. If she is using the word autonomous to signify independence, I think that she would seriously be short changing the study of women's history. How could one completely divest women's history from that of mens'? Or mens' history from that of womens? It seems to me that you would need to be familiar with one to fully understand the other. -- Landon Davis<br />
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Kate Haulman's essay argues that the term "woman" is a fluid concept, based on gender, who has defined it as a category, and who has claimed it as an identiy. If that is so, then should transsexuals who believe they are and/or identify themselves as "women" be included in studies of "women's history", even if biologically they have a Y chromosome and not two X chromosomes? Gisela Bock addressed this subject at a glance during her discussion of sex versus gender, but did not really illuminate it. - Sarah H.<br />
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In reference to Antonia I Castaneda writing, Women of Color and the rewriting of Western History, she states two facts that I found interesting. First of all, she states that most feminist scholars write on the history of white women in the west and secondly, that women scholars of color focus on women of third world countries.(p.15) The history of white and colored women has been told by primarily white men, I thought, because there may have not been enough primary sources from women of any color. There was a time when women were not educated and many could not read nor write, therefore not keeping memoirs or journals to tell their stories. For example, the history of women during the Colonial or Antebellum period was most likely taken from the journals of men about what they wrote in regards to women at that time. What, if any, impact did the lack of women’s skills have on the writing of women’s history? Secondly, wouldn’t it be more difficult to find primary sources on women of a third world country rather that women in America. –Nikole Wellman<br />
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In Bock's essay, I found it interesting where the issue of equality vs difference was discussed. The argument that equality and justice go hand in hand for men but not women is really strange to me. I have always thought that women were equal but different so why is it so hard for equality to mean justice for women as well as for men. [[User:MaryBeth|MaryBeth]]<br />
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I thought it was interesting that in the essay by Alexander that she describes how the study of Black women has to include the study of the whole Black community in order to fully understand the role of Black women. Wouldn't that be true for all groups of women though? I think every woman is shaped by the community that they are a part of and in order to fully understand anyone you would need to be able to put them into context, and that includes understanding their roles in their community.<br />
[[User:MaryBeth|MaryBeth]]<br />
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I agree with Mary Beth. Women of all races in the study of history have been underrepresented. But a woman is not just defined exclusively by her gender, but also her race and region. Just because a person is a female, does not mean that she has had the same experiences as all the other women of her time period. Race plays a major role in defining a woman's role in her community. ~Juliann</div>199.111.69.111https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=Week_15_Questions/CommentsWeek 15 Questions/Comments2007-12-06T09:44:57Z<p>199.111.69.111: </p>
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<div>One of the things that stood out to me during these readings was in "The Office Clerk" when the office manager was listing all of the reasons women were superior towards men for these positions. Among these reasons were that they almost always present for the work day and not making up silly excuses for an absence and the precision that they conducted their work in. I found it surprising that this man had such high praise for women. Could he have been saying this to the interviewer (Clara Lanza) to appease the female crowd who would be reading her article? Or did he really feel this way towards his female workers? Did the fact that companies could get away with paying women less than men factor into this appreciation for women clerks? - Elizabeth Frank<br />
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I also thought the piece titled "The Office Clerk" was interesting. Throughout the readings in this course, I have not come across many men that have spoken about women with such respect and general appreciation of their skills. I was under the mistaken impression that although women were considered to be the superior moral authority, they were never considered superior when performing the same tasks as a man, although paid less. It was interesting to read that many employers would seek female clerks over men, actually appreciating them for their intellect. ~Juliann Boyles<br />
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I found the article "Objections to Domestic Service" in that Lucy Salmon polled servants and their employers and from that managed to come up with a list of disadvantages. These disadvantages were an effort to dissuade young, American born women from entering this type of service. Such "industrial disadvantages" include "lack of all opportunity for promotion," "lack of organization in the service," "irregularity in working hours," "competition with the foreign born and the negro element," and "the interference with work often by those less skilled than the workers themselves." I can understand Salmon's reasoning for wanting to keep women from working as domestic servants. However, I'm slightly confused when she comments on how with the professions of seamstresses, clerks, trained nurses, and teachers can lead to promotions in the working environment. So in that sense, Salmon is urging women to pursue jobs other than domestic servitude. But is she at all encouraging them to return to the home? -- Vanessa Smiley<br />
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I think, in response to Vanessa's question, that Lucy Salmon felt that she was encouraging women to return to the home. Where else would they be if not in the work place? They would be at home with their housework and their families. By expressing the disadvantages of the working world she was able to show women what they would be missing from their home if they joined the workforce, without listing all the things to be done at home and the need to be at home. For some that would probably encourage them to work. Also I think that Lucy Salmon was well aware that the majority of women in the workforce were working because they had to to support their families and they would return to the home if it was possible. --Mary P.<br />
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I liked the interview contained in Lucy Maynard Salmon’s piece called "Objections to Domestic Service". I thought it was interesting that the girl answering the question “Why do girls dislike domestic service?” says that factory workers are smarter, make better wives, and have cleaner homes while domestic workers that get married become careless and lazy with their housework even though that was their job before marriage and they should probably know how to do it well. I don’t think she really has any proof of this, it’s more about reassuring herself and everyone else that she is in fact a good candidate for marriage. She probably saw marriage as a way out of factory work.-- Jennifer Feldhaus<br />
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When I was reading the 1st three pieces for class I thought that it was interesting how they all compared to each other. In the first reading Hellen Campbell talked about how difficult life was for working women, she compared the desperate women all seeking jobs in shops to the even more desperate women who were forced into doing difficult piece work like laundry, sewing, or ironing. The second piece, by Salmon was equally concerned about women working but this time in domestic service (as servants in another person's household) What I found most interesting about this was the problems women had with the profession some of which were very much racially driven- one woman even said that it was a problem for her to work with a Chinese man because he did not know how to "treat women". The final piece talked about how African American women needed jobs so desperately that even women who had college educations had to work as domestic servants. These women hated such work because it was too much like slavery for them. Honestly I think that the African American women have the most to be concerned about, they have a terrible time getting jobs they hate and in some cases are overqualified for. --Julie Castanien<br />
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I know that I already commented on these readings but I just wanted to point out something that I did not mention that I think is worthy of discussion. In the Isabel Eaton reading (Black Servants in Philadelphia) there is a mention of "light" black women and men "passing" as white and having better job security as domestic servants unless their bosses discover the truth. --Julie Castanien <br />
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In Julia Ward Howe's writing under "The Joys of Activism," whether this is intended as propaganda or not, it certainly could be and nicely done. I love how she describes the moment she realized that women could and should do better than where they were. "During the first two thirds of my life I looked to the masculine ideal of character as the only true one... In an unexpected hour a new light came to me... The new domain now made clear to me was that of true womanhood - woman no longer in her ancillary relation to her opposite, man, but in her direct relation to the divine plan and purpose, as a free agent, fully sharing with man every human right and every human responsibility." She's certainly encouraging any that read this that she 'saw the light' you could say and the reader can have these realizations too. -- Vanessa Smiley<br />
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I found "Working Women Debate Woman Suffrage" very interesting, especially the entries from "Americus". The person writing these seemed to be extremely bitter towards men. She states that "we won't stay at home any more and cook and wash dishes either; we've done it long enough; let 'him' do it a little while."(Woloch 366) It just seems like she's extremely bitter that women do so much work with raising children and keeping the house clean, but men appear to go out have a good time with their friends and thats it. -Elizabeth frank<br />
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When reading "We Are All Bound up Together," I found it telling when Frances Ellen Harper related her story of life after losing her husband. She was left with four children and no money. Someone even took her to court over a bed. She then discusses how if she had been a man, she would have been remarried by now and would not be facing economic hardship. --E. Hufford<br />
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Isabel Eaton really exemplifies the challenge black men and women faced in finding jobs. There was no guarentee that they would get a job and often times they settled for domestic service. Even if they were educated, "white help" was always preferred. Many people gave up trying to find work outside of the domestic service branch because of this ideology. Black men and women were also refused domestic jobs because of the color of their skin in many cases. --E. Hufford<br />
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Going along with the comment above me, I thought Isabel Eaton's survey of black servant workers was really interesting. The fact that she learned black men and women stuck with domestic servitude regardless of how terrible the job was because they feared rejection is just heartbreaking. I also was intrigued by how one of the reasons they gave to themselves about rejection for domestic servitude was because "if the mistresses has bad luck with one colored girl they won't never have another." It's just a terrible understanding and way of living and it really shows how, even though they were emancipated and technically free, it was like they were still slaves, except this time they were being paid a very minimal amount of money. -Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I agree with both comments pertaining to Isabel Eaton's account of black workers. Their situation was really a horrible and sad thing. I think it's also interesting to note that Eaton was conducting her survey in the North where many people fought against slavery, yet, as Kelly said, the people participating in the survey were essentially still slaves.--Kaitlyn G.<br />
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Clearly, racism was just as prevalent in the North as it was in the South - one could argue even more so. When reading Eaton's piece, I was just struck with such great sympathy for their plight. The US government tells them they are free - that they are to no longer live like slaves, but their sad economic reality forces only forces them into another form of slavery. What happens to the unlucky black men and women that are unable to find work anywhere? How did they survive? How did they feed their children and themselves, where did they live? At this point, how supportive was the US govt to the unfortunate plight of freed black men and women? ~Juliann<br />
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I found Leonora Barry's piece on the Knights of Labor to be very interesting. I thought that it showed many of the characteristics mentioned by some of the other readings, the fact that she was a widow with three children for example. She seemed however, to be a very strong woman, one who embrassed her work and her position as master workman. What I found really interesting was that she and others went around educating the children in the factories and such and pushing for the children who are working to be educated in an effort to erase the social and economic situation that causes the circumstances that drive mothers into the workplace. --Mary P.<br />
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I also thought the "Office Clerk" by Clara Lanza was an interesting document. I thought it was particularly intersting how it said that women never complained about things like "...the temperature of the building [being] too hot or too cold or that the light is not properly adjusted." Women might not have complained about things like the temperature or light, because they were happy to be able to have a job period that was outside of the home. Men however, could complain about those things and easily get a new job if their current job didn't suit them. ~K. Stinson~<br />
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One trait that I found interesting in “The Office Clerk” was the insistence that office work did not make women unfit for marriage. In fact, the author claims that employment offers these young women the opportunities to meet and wed eligible bachelors, and these working girls often make particularly fine wives. I particularly enjoyed the claim that “men have outgrown their admiration for feminine helplessness and have come to look upon independence as something worth having.” I have to wonder how much of that was actually true and how much was simply the hope of the female author. Unfortunately, we still have women today who fake ignorance or weakness to attract men; how common would it have been in the 19th century? --Ashley H.<br />
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I also noticed the focus on marriage in "The Office Clerk." In my opinion, the author insisted on this point because she wanted to emphasize that a woman could work as an office clerk and still be a part of the domestic sphere. It showed that, as single woman, it was okay for them to work. It even helped them find a good husband to support them. - F. Cobb<br />
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I particularly enjoyed Sadie Frowne's account of her life as a garment worker in a sweatshop. I associated many of the things she said with stories I remember from older relatives. Much of her story was familiar--the constant machines, the long hours, the appreciation for the union, the freedom of life as an independent factory worker, her immigrant status. But at the same time, many of the details were unique, which made her story feel new. I haven't heard this story about Polish immigrant workers as frequently. I've read stories about days off at pleasure areas like Coney Island, but rarely has the location been Coney Island. Sadie's concerns about not being a socialist or an anarchist make sense in light of the paperwork immigrants had to sign and the great concerns about labor's connections to socialism. I found her acknowledgment that she didn't even know what she was denying very touching. --A. Meyer<br />
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What really struck me about "A Sweatshop Girl's Story" was how Sadie Frowne felt about injuries sustained on the job in factories. From the way she was talking, she made it seem like these injuries were no big deal. If you hurt your finger, you just wrap it with a bit of cotton, if the injury is worse than that, you may have to have that finger amputated, but, you just accept it and go on with your life. Maybe injuries like that were so common in those factories, that it truely was no big deal. ~K. Stinson~<br />
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The excerpt I enjoyed the most was Sadie Frowne's tale, A Sweatshop Girl's Story. Quite a few things stuck out to me. First, I always assumed that women hated working in the factories because all you hear is how back breaking and boring the work is but she seems to take it in stride. She even talks about how nice it was when the union fought and won for them to "only work nine and half hours." She understood that if she worked hard sooner or later she would fulfill her own American Dream (did that concept exist then?). I was wondering when she says, on page 309 that "Harry has seen me home every night for a long time and makes love to me," if she meant pre-marital sex because she says it so non-chalantly. I agree with K. Stinson that I found it very strange how she described getting hurt in the work place as no big deal. Basically the vibe I got from her account was that while she was proud of her independence, her whole life was based around trying to become the accepted middle class girl. She talks about reading and educating herself, saving money, how ignorant people are low, and how a girl needs to have nice clothes in order to get into high society. -- Emily Miller<br />
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In response to Emily's comment on "A Sweatshop Girl's Story," I've read works where "making love" simply referred to wooing or courtship, not necessarily pre-marital sex, so I think it's quite possible that Frowne is using this meaning here. Additionally, I liked this piece for its depiction of a complete life which included work, school, a boyfriend, and entertainment such as dancing and theater. The lives of these women were difficult, but they were not all drudgery. Frowne remarks, "at the end of the day one feels so weak that there is a great temptation to lie right down and sleep. But you must go out and get air, and have some pleasure." I wonder if this attitude was common among the working women, or if this is an unusual example of girlish optimism and enthusiasm for life. --Ashley H.<br />
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I really liked Sadie Frowne's account of working in the factory as well. It reminded me a lot of A Tree Grows in Brooklyn. I was sort of surprised at the fact that she talked about her leisure time and her extra money. I guess I'm biased because I read books like A Tree Grows in Brooklyn and Angela's Ashes that talk about how much immigrant families have to work to get by and how strapped for cash they were. Additionally, when she was talking about her daily routine, I had to laugh when she said, "I have heard that there is a sort of clock that calls you at the very time you want to get up, but I can't believe that because I don't see how the clock would know" (309). Oh, Sadie, you can have my alarm clock.--Kaitlyn G. (Happy last wiki post everyone!)<br />
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I was reading Sadie's Frowne's piece and like Kaitlyn other books came to mind. Has anyone read "Lydie," or "The Jungle"? A non-fiction which is also very telling of factory life the "The Bells of Lowell". All three describe in detail the horrors of factory / mill life and the impact a regulated life had on young women and immigrant families. --K. Vance<br />
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I found the letter written by Americus from "Working Women Debate Suffrage" quite intriguing. She mocked equality by chosing to point out the most grotesque male qualities and declaring that now women could partake in them since they were equal. For instance, spitting tobacco, talking in slang, and snoring were all characteristics she declared women could now mimic. Reading this in the sarcastic manner for which it was intended, it can serve as an example of how some working class women saw suffrage as a threat to the familiar. Although many working class women supported equal wages, it did not necessarily mean they wanted the right to vote. In the introduction, Woloch points out that many working class women identified themselves more with their class than their gender, and some of these women felt suffrage only threatened class unity.- Lisa Wilkerson<br />
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I agree with Lisa, these letters really helped me to understand where women against womans suffrage were coming from. Americus is really very interesting and while "spitting tobacco juice upon the trowsers of the gentlemen who pass" is not on the top of my list of things to do, I can understand why she feels threatened. --Allison Johnson<br />
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I also found the Americus letter interesting, since I've had a hard time understanding arguments (beyond the ones from women who preferred to stay at home and were happy with the lives they led) against female-male equality. I've heard arguments about the potential problems with true equality (nursing mothers being drafted, etc)made in a modern sense, but this was one of the first real accounts I'd read of the problems with true equality and suffrage. --A. Meyer<br />
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In response to Lisa and Andrea, though, I was impressed with Ella A. Little's letter to the editor that was a response to Americus. She acknowledged what we had learned, which is that there were women who were completely content with being taken care of by their husbands and happy with the lives they were leading. But I really loved when she went on to address that they knew little about the hardships a majority of women faced and how often these women really wanted to make a change or earn a bit more equality and never had a way to express their interests or desires and voting was the way for them to accomplish those goals. It really must have struck a nerve when she said those women opposed to suffrage must thank their good luck since most women did not have their luxuries. -Kelly Wuyscik <br />
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In Charlotte Perkins Gilman's "The Ills of the Home", she makes a profound observation when she says, "The permanent error of the housewife lies in the assumption that her love for her family makes her service satisfactorily." A mother washes the clothes, fixes the meals, and cleans the house because she loves her family, but that's not saying if she didn't do those things she would love them less. Gilman makes a great point here when she suggests that one of the reasons mothers have so much difficulty entering the workforce is because they are met with such guilt from society; a society which does not comprehend that mothers may interpret these chores as duties and may need to look elsewhere for personal fulfillment.- Lisa Wilkerson<br />
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Reading "We Are All Bound up Together" reminded me of the very first readings we did in this class, which stated that one could not simply study "women's history," because it was a complex topic that had a lot different aspects. This text shows that much, by pointing out that indeed the position of black women was much different than the position of white women. Harper points out an example using the street cars. She notes that white women speak of "rights," but that she is speaking of the wrongs done to her race and gender -that everybody is against her. The article "An Anti-Speaks Out" had an interesting tidbit, saying: "While more practical and sensible women are tyring to put their kitchens...in order.." This makes me wonder what the ration of married to unmarried women are in the suffragist movement compared to the anti-suffragist movement. If I had to guess, it would be that anti-suffragists are more often in a marriage. <br />
-Christopher Plummer<br />
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I liked the piece "Political Lessons" by Stanton and Anthony. Both of these women were great and persuasive writers. I know we had talked about how the NWSA did not accept male members, but I was surprised that they explicitly said that men could not join. This piece really shows that that the NWSA was much more militant and aggressive than the AWSA. - F. Cobb<br />
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I was surprised when Barry wrote about child labor in "A Labor Organizer." She mentions that Pennsylvania had 125,00 children under the age of 15 working in workshops, factories and mines. I was surprised their were so many, and what made PA so bad in this respect? I'm glad the Knights of Labor worked to elevate women and put them in the classroom to be educated. --Alex K.<br />
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In "A Sweatshops Girl's Story" I was surprised about how calm she was about all the injuries that took place. She mentions needles going through the nail or finger and sometimes splintering the bone yet doesn't seem to upset by it. Was she just used to it? Did she assume she couldn't do better? Or was it really not all that bad? --Alex K.<br />
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There are some horrific stories that come out of the mills and sweatshops. Men, Women and Children were all forced to work under horrific conditions for very little pay and the jobs were often deadly. There are injuries like Alex mentioned as well as shuttlies flying off the looms and hitting girls in the head. There are children who worked as doffers who lose hands or fingers trying to change and collect bobbins. Women getting their hair caught in the machines was also a common occurence. Then there's also the dieseases that can be caught from living and working in such horrible and close conditions. I believe TB was common as well as lung infections, particularlly in the textile mills where cotton and lint was constantly floating in the air. I don't beleive that anyone could get use to those situaitons and the accidents that occured around them. However, what is important to remember is that each time a someone was hurt, they were likely sent home and therefore lost the income their wages provided them with. Therefore, it might be resonable to say that even though the accidents were occuring around them it was a fact of life and she'd probably continue focusing on her own work and pray that it didn't happen to her. -K. Vance <br />
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While "Shop Girls and Piece Workers" was not shocking to me, I couldn't help but wonder if it would actually have been shocking to women of the day. I mean, even middle or upper class women had to be aware of what lower class women were doing. So did this book actually shock any one at the time?-- Allison Johnson<br />
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I agree with Lisa's comments on "The Ills of the Home". I do feel that many women must have wished to engage in a skilled labor, especially those of the lower classes. While the need to provide monetary support is undoubtedly a major motivator, its seems the support of societal development also played a part. There seems to be a disconnect between housework and advancing society within the article. I wonder how much this sentiment was shared throughout the female community of the period. --Robert Kopp<br />
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The piece by Isabel Eaton in response to black servants in Philadelphia was very interesting. At first I read the piece without taking in the context of where this was occurring, which was not a southern city, but a northern city. We discussed some in class about the difficulty blacks faced in the South trying to find jobs, particularly with their skills focused mostly on agriculture, but I had not given it much thought for northern cities. Eaton touched on the idea that many white women chose other white women over domestic servants, which is a practice that makes sense in the post Civil War South, but what factors influenced white women’s decisions to not hire blacks in the North? Was it purely racism? Bitterness in the post war era? I would think white women could pay black women less, so in a market where supply and demand is crucial, white women could take advantage of high numbers of domestic servants to obtain high quality service for low prices. Was this not the case? Is there evidence of the same practices in other large, northern cities? -Mary Beth Dillane<br />
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In “Objections to Domestic Service” by Lucy Salmon it’s interesting to read the personal reasons many women had for disliking their jobs as domestic servants and I agree with Vanessa’s comment that her survey results could be used to persuade young women from going into any type of servant employment. Lucy Salmon may have felt that domestic servitude was beneath women and they should pursue other occupations that have more advantages including: opportunities for promotion, regular working hours, and personal independence.-Caitlin Quinn</div>199.111.69.111https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=Week_14_Questions/CommentsWeek 14 Questions/Comments2007-11-29T07:48:51Z<p>199.111.69.111: </p>
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<div>As I was reading through the various wartime accounts of both Northern and Southern women, generally I was surprised how patriotic the women were and how readily they sacrificed for their cause. Just as soldiers were motivated to enlist based on their patriotic sentiments to their respective regions, those same political sentiments also motivated women to join the war effort. Another aspect from the readings that struck me involved a woman's attitude toward enemy soldiers. While some women held enemy soldiers with a certain distrust, others felt admiration, appreciating an enemy soldier's demonstration of masculinity. It was amazing, that despite the war, some women could still feel a female bond with the wives of enemy soldiers. ~Juliann Boyles<br />
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I enjoyed reading the account of Louisa May Alcott in Woloch when she was describing her period of nursing in the hospital. I knew that the conditions were bad but reading that account really made it clearer what they had to deal with, such as the lack of ventilation, which of course would not have helped the wounded and sick heal.- Elizabeth Lynn Frank<br />
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I also found Alcott's journal interesting because she seems to be a woman looking for opportunity. She writes of "pent up energy" and a want of "new experiences." She seemed to have personal hopes the exceed what was allowed for women in the doctrine of separate spheres. Alcott took advantage of the war to gain new experiences.--Kelly Martin <br />
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I'm a huge Alcott fan. Her novels are wonderful. Reading her journal brings to light her experiences during the war, showing the horrors of war and the trama and stress it placed not only on the soldiers but civilians as well. Her journals hightlights the humanitarian side of the war and the very real relationships and interactions which were established between the soliders and the nurses as seen in Alcott's reference to "my boys." -Katelynn Vance <br />
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Alcott's journal seems to shed light on who these women nurses actually were. I typically find myself going along with the static ideas we may have about what they thought and felt, but this really shows their character behind the facade of who they are, as well as give insight as to what they were going through, why they were, and what kept them going. "Though often homesick, heartsick, and worn out, I like it, find real pleasure in comforting, tending, and cheering these poor souls who seem to love me..." and "Up at six, dress by gaslight, run through my ward and throw up windows... poke the fire, add blankets, joke, coax, and command." She also shows the affection nurses grew to have for their patients, at one point calling them her "big babies" and "my boys" which I thought was cute and funny. -- Vanessa Smiley<br />
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Alcott's piece also shows how a certain type of women were attracted to the nursing profession: young, single, and adventurous. -- F. Cobb<br />
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Like most of us, I also really enjoyed Alcott's journal. It was nice to see her writing from her own experiences, versus one of her novels! I really found it interesting how she just kept going. Through her own illness contracted from the hospital, as well as the horrible sights- she felt compelled to keep going and move on. In the beginning of her journal...she wrote how she "...was a boy going off to war." She was doing all that she could for the fight. And that included traveling 500 miles away from home- leaving family and friends behind. - Talya.<br />
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Having long been an admirer of Louisa May Alcott's writings I was thrilled and fascinated to read her journal about her time as a nurse. Her writing style was such that you can almost see what she was seeing and feel what she felt. It was also an example of what we talked about in class, women taking opportunities to go and do something that they otherwise would not have and that they were just as susceptible to illness as their patients. --Mary P.<br />
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Alcott's journal was so interesting. What a great view into why a woman would become a nurse. Its so interesting that she saw this not only as a way to help her country, but also as a way to help her family (by giving them one less mouth to feed). It is also interesting that she sees becoming a nurse as "taking my life in my hand." Obviously the women saw themselves as making just as much of a sacrifice as male soldiers. -- Allison Johnson <br />
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Since the men have left/ Women take over the farm/ We do what we must. (Inspired by "Northern Women on Farms"; he did say we could do haikus). I liked reading this account because to me it shows how much women were willing to change in some cases in order to adjust to the men leaving for war and in order to make the farm continue to succeed. These women were great motivators, or could have been if they had encouraged others to do the same.- Elizabeth Lynn Frank<br />
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After reading Clarissa Burdett's affidavit, I was surprised that Burdett would run away and leave her children behind, potentially to suffer the same abuse she endured. Because Burdett's torture was the punishment for her husband and niece's running away, wouldn't Burdett's running away cause the master to be especially cruel to her children?-- Kelly Martin<br />
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I can only imagine the pain and anguish that Clarissa Burdett experienced. That said, I would think that she had to make a descision at that moment, to run away to to be potentialy beaten to death. If her master beats her to death there is still no one there to protect her children. She knew that she could not take them with her, so she made the desicion to leave them and sought help from the Union army to help her remove her children from the situation. I wish that we could know from the readings what became of her and her children, but in my opinion she choose the only option that she thought was available to her that was in the potential best interest of her and her children. --Mary P.<br />
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In Eva Jones' letters, there was one thing she said that seemed to emphasize what we discussed in class as to the shock of some southerns that their slaves were not in fact happy and left. "Adelline, Grace, and Polly have all departed in search of freedom, without bidding any of us an affectionate adieu." -- Vanessa Smiley<br />
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I found Eva Jones's letters interesting because they presented a perspective I had never considered before: that of the wealthy Southern white woman. I would not usually think of these women as victims, but, as was mentioned in class, they experienced dramatic changes after the end of the war. I even pitied Jones when she wrote, "I expect before long to become a very efficient chambermaid and seamstress, though the latter comes very hard to my poor unused fingers." It must have been a difficult transition for women used to commanding slaves rather than doing their own domestic labor. -- Ashley H. <br />
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I found Eva Jones' entry quite insightful. She mentions some of her slaves voluntarily stayed after the War, which brings about a question I have always pondered and hope that perhaps someone can shed some light on, why did slaves remain on plantations with their masters and mistresses? How often did this occur? Is it mainly a phenomenon seen with elderly slaves who could not travel or start fresh?- Lisa Wilkerson<br />
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I was surprised by the women who strongly criticized other women following the Civil War, did they do this only because they were unable to directly attack men? - F. Cobb<br />
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In Mary Anderson's story, I'm surprised to hear of how many slaves actually returned to their former masters' homes. She said that once she and a large portion of her family moved back, she got married and had several kids, but she doesn't mention what life was like or how they lived. I assume that this was maybe a sharecropping arrangement? -- Vanessa Smiley<br />
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I know I've commented a lot already, but I was just so struck by Ada Bacot's comments that I had to comment at least one more time. She vehemently hates the two Yankee soldiers that were wounded and placed in her ward. "It will be hard to treat them as I do the other men but I know it is my duty." So despite her hatred, she does what she has to do as a nurse. But the last line emphasizes that hatred when she says, "I have never inquired there names nor do I intend to." Ouch. -- Vanessa Smiley<br />
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I found Ada Bacot's Comments on Two Wounded Yankees interesting. She comments that it is her duty to care for the wounded Yankee soldiers though it troubles her to do so. This just reaffirms the concept that women came to the front during the war and embraced a sense of duty--for some this was caring for men despite their Yankee or Confederate affiliation. --E. Hufford<br />
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I too was struck by Ada Bacot’s sense of duty. It must have been extremely hard to care for two people who could have been shooting at your brother/father/cousin/uncle/brother-in-law/husband/other male relative.-Kaitlyn G.<br />
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I was surprised to read Sarah Morgan's account especially when she said, "But if I can't fight, being unfortunately a woman, which I now regret for the first time in my life...." I found this to be quite a radical statment considering the societal ideology of a woman's place. How many other women felt this way at the time of war? --E. Hufford<br />
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I too found Sarah Morgan's statement, "But if I can't fight, being unfortunately a woman, which I now regret for the first time in my life....", a bit radical considering a woman's place in society at the time.-Katie D.<br />
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I thought Cornelia Hancock's account in Major Problems was intersting. What I thought was particularly interesting was how Hancock could handle the sight of blood and watch amputations take place, but when she had to write home for a soldier, she couldn't do so without crying. I guess she had seen so many amputation take place that they no longer bothered her. I also want to know what kind of qualifications that a man needed to be a surgeon. To be a surgeon would a man have to already be a practicing doctor or could a surgeon be anyone willing to do the job? ~Katherine Stinson~<br />
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I really liked the accounts written by the nurses during the Civil War, particularly the account written by Maria Daly who was a New Yorker. Her details of the Southern nurses really emphasizes how little they wanted to be there and how different cultures were between the north and the south. One thing that really stuck out to me was the line, "I lose all patience when I think of these demonic Southern women, whose pride and arrogance have had so much to do with this fearful state of things." It just makes it so much clearer the difference between northern women and southern women. -Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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Sarah Morgan's declaration of being a rebel also intrigued me quite a bit. I remember during the lecture how women in the South practically (totally) forced their male relatives to fight in the war, and this declaration just seemed to be the epitome of that. She seems so enthusiastic to be a Southerner that I wouldn't be surprised if she ended up dressing like a man to go fight or threw her male relatives onto the fields. Although she mentions that she was hesitant about the war at first, he attitude seems completely changed and it makes me wonder if this was a result of propaganda and public opinion, or if she was trying to boost moral for other southerners? -Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I enjoyed Lincoln's comments on the contributions of women: "I have never studied the art of paying compliments to women. But I must say that if all that has been said by orators and poets since the creation of the world in praise of women, was applied to the women of America, it would not do them justice for their conduct during this war. I will close by saying, God bless the women of America!" I'm not sure I have anything to say about it; I just thought it was a pretty fantastic quote. -Ashley H.<br />
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Mary Livermore's writing in Major Problems was interesting because she believes that the heroism and unity of women during the Civil War was comparable to that of the men that were center stage doing the fighting. I think it was meant to be uplifting for women at the time. She wanted to show that women did play an important role as caretakers in the Civil War. -- Jennifer Feldhaus<br />
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Ada was not uncommon in her feelings towards the Yankee soldiers. Newspapers in the South tended to portray Yankees as “The Northern serpent, who has penetrated the Southern Eden… proposes to harm no one--to disturb nobody's private rights....” The newspapers insinuated how no one will forget “the cruelties practised [sic] upon our loyal and true citizens, the brutal treatment of women….” The quotes were taken from Virginia Center for Digital History, “Staunton Spectator,” The Valley of the Shadow, http://valley.vcdh.virginia.edu/newspapersp2.html. ---Cheryl<br />
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Very interesting, but I'm not really surprised by that portrayal of the North. With things like that being printed in the newspapers, anti-Northern sentiments could only be exacerbated. I recently did a project in another class and did a tiny bit of research on Confederate Ladies' Memorial Associations that were established after the war with the purpose of preseving Confederate patriotism. It's no wonder that the women in the post-bellum South who were members of these groups were so paranoid...and they also REALLY mad because their boys just lost the war. Also, some news you can or cannot use: the Fredericksburg Ladies' Memorial Association is one of only two such orgainzations that is still active in the country. You heard it here, people. - Kaitlyn G.<br />
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There seems to be a sense of fear in Louticia Jackson's letter about her slave Willes continual disobedience. Her last line reads: "He does seem so wicked [that] if any one was to come upon him about his conduct I do not know what he would do afterwards." When I consider how black male slaves were viewed by people as ready to commit any terrible crime, such as raping a helpless white woman, her fear does really seem really deeply felt. There really doesn't seem like there is anything she can do...its not like she could easily go get her neighbors to come and help. In a way, power has shifted to the slaves in a sort of hidden way. -Christopher Plummer<br />
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In "Teaching the Freedmen", Sarah Chase claims to have 140 pupils. This seems like an outrageously high number. Was such a large student:teacher ratio common in these post-war schools?- Lisa Wilkerson<br />
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I wrote my paper on Louisa May Alcott so I was familiar with her diary describing her experience as an army nurse during the Civil War. Alcott fell very ill while working and it took her almost three months to recuperate after she returned home. Even though her work almost killed her Louisa continued to help in the war effort in any way that she could. For instance she rallied other women in Concord to sew for the soldiers. –Caitlin Quinn<br />
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I found the division between the women of the North and the women of the South completely fascinating. When Sarah Morgan stated, “Yes! I am glad we are two distinct tribes,” in combination with the piece by Caroline Kirkland, made it clear how prideful each side was. I think when we talked in class about sectional pride and the role of women in recruiting and setting the standards of men being soldiers I did not truly grasp the almost competition-like atmosphere created. Are there other examples of women or groups taking such passionate sides of soldiers? Can anyone think of modern-day examples of women standing so passionately next to their men for a cause? -Mary Beth D.<br />
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Hancock's letter to her mother surprised me because it was so different from the others to her cousin and sister. To her sister she wrote of all the suffering and terrible conditions the men faced. To her mother though she spoke of being "waited upon like a princess," that sleeps and eats well and that she loves what she is doing. Could it be that she didn't want to worry her mother? --Alex K.<br />
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Alex, you bring up an interesting point. I wonder how many female nurses truly felt unsafe, like Alcott, and how many of them would have been able to communicate their fears to friends and family without fearing objections and restrictions from people who still controlled their lives.I've read elsewhere similar comments to Daly's attacks on Southern white women, and I'm frequently left wondering if Southern white women were truly that awful, or if it was a propaganda tool.--A. Meyer<br />
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I found Ella Gertrude's comments to Sherman's wife really harsh. It reminded me of cady high school girls when she was purposely trying to make his wife feel bad by telling her of the Mulatto girl he had been seen with (insinuating an affair). --Alex K.<br />
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From reading "A Wartime Mistress", I was surprised how quickly the lack of an actor in a gender role had profound effects. For a slave to be openly defiant so quickly, it makes me wonder not only about the lack of worry about the mistress's punishment, but also the return of the master. Perhaps a feeling of freedom was already taking hold among some slaves with the temporary absence of their masters. --Robert Kopp<br />
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No wiki haiku?<br />
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I am so disappointed<br />
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So much work to do</div>199.111.69.111https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=Week_12_Questions/CommentsWeek 12 Questions/Comments2007-11-15T06:31:26Z<p>199.111.69.111: </p>
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<div>In Woloch's reading, (O, Ye Daughters of Africa, Awake!), Maria Stewart, a black Bostonian, played a special role in public life and women's history. When the abolitionist movement began, William Lloyd Garrison published some of her essays in his antislavery journal. In her essays, I really liked how Stewart urged women to pursue self-improvement and assert their rights. A lot of her message was aimed at African American women. -Katie D.<br />
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I agree with Katie but I'd also like to point something else out about the piece "O, Ye Daughters of Africa, Awake!" All throughout Maria Stewart's account, she used revolutionary rhetoric, more often than not using the word "liberty." She also consistently brought up freedoms such as the freedom of the press and the freedom of speech, and it just emphasizes what we learned in class that this revolutionary rhetoric was coming back to haunt the upper and middle class white men that the rhetoric was supposed to apply to. -Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I thought Maris Stewart's writing was intellectual and extremely well written for a speech. In the essay, she speaks of freedom and equality to Americans. I think I understand why she would not see herself as an American- considering the awful circumstances- yet if everyone knew that the fear of the white men was that another race may not "assimilate," why would she not call herself American and attempt to be truly equal? When did the term African American come into play? These may be ignorant questions- but I am hoping someone else is in the same boat- Talya. <br />
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The reading by Maria Stewart is steeped with rhetoric which was used during the American Revolution. Stewart talks about "this land of freedom" that "all the nations of the earth are crying out for liberty and equality" ect. This piece also sounds like a sermon, and therefore, might have been influenced by the great awakening. For stewart, education plays an important role in the raising of black women's status in society and seems to imply that it is their right for education as much as it is their right to freedom. However, I'm wondering who her audience was exactly because that can change the way her speech is interpreted or recieved. --K. Vance<br />
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When reading Lucy Stone's Marriage Protest, in Woloch's book, I found it interesting that when the couple took their vows, each partner signed a unique marriage "protest". This protest was also read as part of their ceremony! -Katie D.<br />
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I really feel that Lucy Stone epitomizes the definition of a feminist, the one that will lead to our modern day definition/perception. She kept her own name, she "refused to 'obey', and challenged the system..." The protest itself is riddled with a woman's absolute independence. It takes away any traditional patriarchal "laws" and demands equality from both man and woman. -- Vanessa Smiley<br />
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I was also interested by Lucy Stone's marriage protest, probably because it was so not what one would expect from a woman from the mid 1800s, at least I assume this was irregular. The things that she was protesting we take for advantage that we dont have to worry about them. For instance women today dont have to worry about their legal existence disappearing with marriage. But for her the things that many women seemed to just accept as their fate she rebelled against. I was also intreged that she kept her own name. --Mary P.<br />
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I was equally intrigued by the marriage of Lucy Stone and was curious if we know anything about how Henry Blackwell was treated after agreeing to this marriage protest. Was he ridiculed by men for not being able to "control" his wife? Was he embraced by woman for being the ideal husband for letting his wife have rights? Or was he simply ignored, as if this case was not out of the ordinary in any way?- Lisa Wilkerson<br />
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The fact that Henry Blackwell actually agreed to sign the Marriage Protest was what surprised me. We don't see a lot of men willing to give up that kind of power over their wives before and during this time period. Was he a women's rights activist? -- Jennifer Feldhaus<br />
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I too was interested in Henry Blackwell's signing of the protest and the omission of his own social fate. It seems to me that he would be an even greater target among the men of the community. I would believe he would be seen as unable to control his wife, a crucial role in the ideal. I also wonder how their marriage was recognized. Lucy Stone and Henry Blackwell's protest has obvious parallels with one of today's greatest issues. --Robert Kopp<br />
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--I'm another person who found Blackwell's role in the marriage protest far more interesting and worth investigating than Stone's. --A. Meyer<br />
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When I read the piece, "Seduced and Abandoned," in the Woloch book, I could not help but start laughing. I understand that it is not a laughing matter that girl was abandoned by her "fiance" and had to become a prostitute, but the way in which it was written screamed propaganda. The way the innocent girl from the country was persuaded to elope by a villain from the city and then was decoyed into becoming a prostitute only until meeting up with a wholesome man from her hometown is just too unreal. It is amazing how this scenario is consistently used and tweaked to support different causes. But it really shows how the moral reform movement was determined to deliver people to the side of God and how women were at the forefront since the piece was obviously written by a woman. -Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I agree with Kelly about "Seduced and Abandoned" being so blantantly propagandistic. I have read many similar stories in literature of the day. I wonder, however, how common a story this really was. I realize that it's not exactly something we can get statistics on. I'm sure that it happened quite a bit. However, it seems likely that at least some of these tales are either altered for effect or completely made up. I'm curious as to how the public perception of danger to their daughters compared with reality. --Ashley H. <br />
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While reading "seduced and abandoned" all i could think about was the correlations between this piece of propaganda and the novel Charolette Temple. Each have elements of "good girls" being convinced / tricked into leaving their parents behind, traveling to a new place they'd never been and being left destitute. I find it interesting that even though there around 100+ years between the publication of the novel and this piece of propaganda, the authors are still telling the same story. What makes this story so popular? So powerful? Since the same story is being told over and over again, what does it say about the states of society?--K. Vance<br />
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As much as this whole genre emerged as a clear propaganda, the desperate plight of a young woman who wasn't fully supported or who displeased her town or family in any "grievous" manner was something we don't seem to fully appreciate. I think Dr. McClurken's statistics last week suggested how many women turned to prostituion as the only way to support themselves, and I tihnk that's a serious misunderstanding for many modern American women who are paid much closer to equal wages and have ERA-esque salary protections.--A. Meyer <br />
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I thought it was interesting that at the end of the "Seduced and Abandoned" piece, the author pretty much blames the parents for not teaching their children about the dangers of the world. I may be mistaken, but to me this seems to contrast what we talked about on Tuesday about how "proper" women were supposed to be sheltered and were not even supposed to know that prostitution existed. - F. Cobb <br />
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I was very intrigued by the Declaration of Sentiments drafted by Elizabeth Cady Stanton. The way she manipulated the Declaration of Independence is the perfect example of women using revolutionary rhetoric to get what they want. If you placed the two next to one another and asked someone to tell the difference, I think it would take quite a bit of reading (probably up until she starts blaming men for everything) before they could figure it out. Stanton proved to be very clever and I just hope there were many more women like her fighting for what they believed. -Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I think this document shows some of the legal training Stanton was exposed to, reading her father (a judge)'s law books. As dramatic and over the top as this peace is, it sets out some of the grievances and problems, which the age of enlightenment believed was a necessary firs step for any revolutionary effort. I think this document is under-appreciated. --A. Meyer<br />
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In the Declaration of Sentiments I liked how they included that women need "to wise up" basically. They wrote that they need to no longer declare themselves satisfied with their present position or assert that they have all the rights they want. Basically, stop accepting their lot just because that's how things are and start fighting it. I don't think they realized though that some women didn't see a problem with how things were. In Sarah Josepha Hale's piece, for example, she says she is fine to not vote herself and is proud to vote by her proxies. --Alex K.<br />
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When reading the Declaration of Sentiments, what struck me especially was the last passage, added exclusively by Lucretia Mott. This section was peculiar, for not only did it continue the argument for the equality between men and women, it argued for equal participation in "various trades, professions, and commerce." Basically Lucretia Mott was arguing for equal opportunity and pay in the workplace - a feat still in progress today. ~Juliann Boyles<br />
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In Woloch, the "Letter to the Liberator" piece really seemed to strike at the heart of women and their role in reform. and specifically this letter addresses slavery. "Woman has a place, for she forms a part in God's created intelligent instrumentality to reform the world. God never made her to be inactive - nor in all cases to follow in the wake of man... We believe God gave woman a heart to feel - an eye to weep - a hand to work - a tongue to speak. Now let her use that tongue to speak on slavery." Those words state that is every woman's right and responsibility and duty to play an active role in reform. -- Vanessa Smiley<br />
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I found it interesting that in the "letter to the liberator" that the author emphasizes the fact that slavery is happening here, in america. She writes that slavery isn't happening in china or india or some other far off country but within the united states. With such emphasis placed upon the idea that its happening here, I'm wondering how often people denied the practice of slavery with denial or a not in my backyard mentatlity. On another note i find it interesting that she invokes Washington as the "protector of women and a friend of equality and human rights" when Washington, himself, owned slaves for all of his life. It was only after his death that he made arrangments to free some of his slaves, but only after his wife, Martha Washington had died. On the other hand many of his slaves gained their freedom earlier than expect because Martha, fearing for her life and a slave rebellion, freed them. However, that was slighly off topic. Basically, I'm wondering if people denied the exsistence of slavery or just choose to over look it giving emery and the society a reason to explicitly write that slavery was occuring here. --K. Vance<br />
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I enjoyed the rhetoric of liberty and patriotism used in the "Letter to the Liberator." Emery writes, "Is not woman abused--woman trampled upon---woman spoiled of her virtue . . . and this, not in India---not in China---not in Turkey---not in Africa---but in America . . . in the birthplace of Washington, the father of freedom, the protector of women, the friend of equality and human rights!" Emery reminds Americans of their own fight for freedom, and she calls for America to become a morally superior nation. Even the use of the phrase, "On such a creed, we base the constitution, which binds us together," feels reminiscent of the writings of the founding fathers. ---Ashley H. <br />
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I thought it was very interesting to read about Sojourner Truth and how she felt about the situtation and the rehtoric that she used. Up until this point the majority of women we have heard from have been white, middle-upper class women with very good educations. But here is a woman who was a slave, who cannot read or write. She was also deeply religious and I thought it was very interesting to read her speach and reading the various Biblical references that she makes to prove her point, as well as using her life story to express her belief in women's rights. --Mary P.<br />
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I also enjoyed Sojourner Truth's piece. It was interesting to see how different the two version were. The one recollection written twelve years after the actual speech is the more famous one, though the first one is probably the most accurate. Why do you think the second author made these changes? - F. Cobb <br />
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It was interesting to read that when Elizabeth Cady Stanton urged women to secure the vote in the “Declaration of Sentiments” other women’s rights supporters felt it would make the “whole movement ridiculous.” I am sure that none of them could imagine that <br />
the right of suffrage would end up becoming the cornerstone of the women’s rights movement. <br />
It was really interesting that Lucy Stone decided to get married and at the same time challenged the institution of marriage which had forced women to give up their rights. I found it remarkable that she even had her husband sign a “marriage protest” and the document was published in a newspaper. We’ve read about other women who have refused to get married because they did not want to lose their rights but Mrs. Stone was the first one who challenged the marriage system of her day.-Caitlin Quinn<br />
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I also thought it was interesting that securing the vote for women almost didn't appear in the Seneca Falls Convention's Declaration of Sentiments because of support issues. Now it's really the first thing anyone thinks about when they hear the word Seneca Falls Convention. Maybe people though that women would be asking for too much in too short of a time period if they included voting. Or maybe they though that it would overshadow some of the other things they were trying to accomplish. -- Jennifer Feldhaus <br />
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It amazes me that almost every arguement used for or against Women's rights involved biblical references. Women arguesd God made them just as intelligent and capable as men and men, like the editor of Harper's Magazine, argued that the Women's rights movements were "opposed as it was to divine revelation, time-honored proprieties, and biblical authority." (158) I wonder what the arguements would be if God, The Creator, or religion weren't allowed to be invovled. Even though during this period the Great Awakening was peaking, I wonder what women who did not follow that movement and were less-religious thought. What were their arguements? "The American Femal More Refore Society Warns Mothers About "Solitary Vice" was to me a hysterical piece. I found it particularly funny that they called it a "body and ''soul-destroying'' sin." -- Emily Miller<br />
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I thought the article on Sojourner Truth was very interesting. It was great to get her perspective on women't rights. I agree with Mary P that her use of Biblical references were a great way to make her point and the fact that as a slave she probably worked harder everyday than a lot of white men did at the time just proved that women could do anything the men could do. <br />
I also found the Marriage Protest by Lucy Stone interesting to say the least. That is definately extreme feminism for that time. I can see why she was "ridiculed and persecuted" but if you are that against the ideas of marriage at that time why go through a marriage at all? Why not stay single and just live together? Although I don't know how radical that idea would have been at the time but at least you kept your identity. ~~ Mary Beth Conrad<br />
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I found the first 2 documents in MP pages 141- 143 a bit too flowery. The woman who is addressing the other ladies paints a lovely picture of all the good that they have accomplished for the poor. It makes me wonder if they spent most of their time patting their selves on the back rather than doing foot work on the street helping out the poor. ---Cheryl<br />
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The two documents by Isabella Graham were a bit flowery, but it is interesting to note that she says "the men could not allow our sex the steadiness and perserverance necessary to establish such an undertaking." It is so interesting how women are really beginning to use the 'us vs. them' approach when talking about women and men. Girl Power! -- Allison Johnson<br />
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I, too, enjoyed the speech by Sojourner Truth, but what I found most interesting was the inclusion of southern dialect by Frances Gage. Obviously, being that Sojourner was from a Dutch-speaking New York family, her accent would have been anything but Southern. Perhaps by making Sojourner sound like a Southern slave, Gage was trying to appeal to Southern slaveowners. When Gage wrote this version of Sojourner's speech, it was during the Civil War and at the height of the Abolitionist movement. This context obviously influenced how/what she chose to emphasize from Sojourner's speech.- Lisa Wilkerson<br />
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I really enjoyed the essay on Sojourner Truth. She spoke well on equal rights. Her comparisons of physical strengths and intelligence as qualifiers for equal rights should have been an eye opener for all there. She showed that women could be physically strong, intelligent and take a great amount of pain. I like when she spoke how someone had said women can’t have equal rights because Jesus wasn’t a women. I have heard similar musing before in women’s groups how all men come from women. She is a very inspiring speaker.---Cheryl<br />
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One of the things that stood out to me about Sojourner Truth Speaks was that not only did she use biblical references in a way she seemed to be challenging the traditional held views of the church, especially when she talks about how since Eve did sin first men should stop holding women back but instead allow them a chance to make up for what "they" did. -Elizabeth Frank<br />
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In the essay "Free Black Women in the Abolitionist Movement" I found all the different factors that made it more acceptable for black women to speak publicly very interesting. While female speakers are still not fully accepted by all, the need that black men saw for the abolition cause seems to temporarily out weigh gender stereotypes. -- Allison Johnson<br />
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I also enjoyed the "Free Black Women in the Abolitionist Movement" piece. The three sources of hostility (anti-black feelings, anti-abolitionist sentiments, and hatred of "public" women) were interesting. There were so many obstacles they had to overcome in order to be heard and taken seriously. In addition to these obstacles, they also had several conditions to make sure not to piss people off. For example, black male leaders applauded black women speakers until they began to criticize black men, black women they were more acceptable for audiences if they exuded "feminine qualities," women writers generally only found an audience when they wrote on "feminine" subjects and black women poets and essayists were able publish works mainly only with the aid of prominent abolitionists. They had a lot working against them. --Alex K.<br />
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The "Seduced and Abandoned" article portrayed the young girl in the story as kinda mindless. She is just an innocent young girl swept up by the objective evil that causes her to fall into bad things. Her rescue, is kinda odd, since the business man from her village just happened to go to the circus that one time, as a grand exception. Of course, he saves her. Such a story is in direct contrast with the other articles, such as "O, Ye Daughters of Africa, Awake!" and "Reply to the Massachusetts Clergy." I certainly don't think that some girls did end up in terrible situations that they could not forsee, but I do get the sense that these grand moral reform ideas implicitly included female mindlessness. I suppose it all relates to women being the passionless, moral barometer of society who only have experience in the pure household. Of course, Sarah Grimke made the exact opposite statement when she wrote that womens displacement from equality has "introduced confusion into the world." pg 239 For her, inequality is the problem, for the minister she is responding to, it is equality. Its such a polarized mindset. I wonder if Lucy and Henry's marriage was deemed null if they signed agreements that were in direct contrast with the law regarding marriage at the time... -Chris Plummer<br />
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The piece “Free Black Women in the Abolitionist Movement” touched briefly on the gender and race expectations of the time and how women reformers rebelled against these stereotypes. I know some of the pieces touched upon the idea of solidarity under the title “women,” yet pieces in both Woloch and Norton touched upon the idea of white reformers vs. black reformers. I was wondering how clear a divide there was between white and black reformers? White and black abolitionists? White and black suffragists? I know in the 1960s women’s movement, there was a great division among various ethnic lines; I’m wondering whether anyone knows if a similar race divide existed? Were black abolitionists/suffragists seeking rights different or separate from white women? Were there issues they both agreed on and fought for? --Mary Beth Dilla<br />
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My question is in regards to Sojourner Truth. What I want to know is if she faced double the amount of prejudice that other women's rights activists faced since she was African American as well as a woman. ~Katherine Stinson~<br />
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We've spent a lot of time talking about activism and reformers and how the middle class reformer was created. Most of these women attempted to conform their lifestyles to that mold, while espousing views that radically challenged the tenets of the middle class family ideal. I'm very interested in how someone like Sojourner Truth could be so welcomed by reformers, and how this transformation to reform efforts that directly challenged the root of the reforming era because they tackled the middle class ideal. --A. Meyer<br />
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When reading Sarah Grimke's piece, I was really astonished about how progressive it was. I was under the impression, that even though the moral reformists and abolitionists pushed their gender roles outside their expected spheres, they still maintained relatively conservative lifestyles to todays's standard, but Grimke's rhetoric reminded me of a 1960s feminist. One part in particular that really brings the 20th century liberal movement to mind is Grimke's comment that "whatever is right for man to do, is right for woman to do," a perfect slogan for a Title 9 activist. ~Juliann Boyles</div>199.111.69.111https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=Week_7_Questions/CommentsWeek 7 Questions/Comments2007-10-11T11:00:12Z<p>199.111.69.111: </p>
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<div>In the reading from Woloch's book, part of Martha Ballard's diary, I thought it was great how Martha didn't even begin her career until age 42,had six kids,and had several careers such as a housewife, slaughtered livestock, spun flax, produced candles and soap, knitted cloathing, pieced quilts, raised chickens, milked cows, fed pigs, and grew vegetables. Martha also ran a buisy local practice as a healer and midwife, and did much more! This was a remarkable women in my eyes.-Katie D.<br />
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If she didn't start her career as a midwife till she was 42 what was she doing in the mean time? Do we have any records of her earlier years? And i wonder what shaped her choice to become a midwife? --Katelynn V.<br />
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In the reading from Woloch's book, part of Martha Ballard's diary, I liked how her diary was at once a professional log, a family record, and a community record, because of her continual involvement with clients, neighbors, and local happenings.- Katie D.<br />
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I also liked how her diary was a log not only for herself and her family but also for her community. While reading the entries it was clear that she was writing it not only for herself because of how she records the details, like who is sick, who gave birth etc. I found it interesting that it was a midwife who seemed to be keeping logs of the town and not a man in some other professional field within the town.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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Along those lines, I was wondering why she didn't begin keeping a diary until she was 50 years old. Was it because she thought of her diary as more of a log for the community (as Elizabeth put it) and this was the time she was doing the most communal work (after her kids were not so young)? --Alex K.<br />
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Is it possible that she did keep another diary and we just don't have it? Is a pervious journal ever alluded to within the text of her diary? --Katelynn V.<br />
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I thought it was interesting too how her diary did cover all points of her life, not just about her being a good wife or a good mother or a good midwife or what have you. That was one aspect of her diary that stood out from the diaries we have looked at previously. The diaries from the other periods seemed more concerned with making the writer look like a good Christian or the proper woman of the time, like she wrote it because she knew that it would be read some day and that she wanted to make sure her decendants knew what a wonderful person she was. While Martha Ballard may have had the same intention it also seems as though she wanted to keep the record more for herself and her children then to show how good she was. --Mary P.<br />
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I think it's remarkable about how detailed her journal is, and how it really does capture most of her daily activities. I particularly like the very last sentence of the Wolch reading which states "I have been called to the birth of this year past, 28 --seventeen of them were daughters. I have lost 42 nights' sleep this year past." Can you imagine, having the discipline to record you daily activites, or realizing that you had not slept for 42 nights during the year? Although, i wonder how the births of so many baby girls would effect a small community both immediately following thier birth and in the future. Could it lead to skewed gender ratios or later effect marriage possibilities for the young ladies? ---Katelynn V.<br />
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Pardon me if this is common knowledge and I am just out the loop, but who was looking after Margaret's children while her and her husband were away on business? Were they all grown up and out of the house? Were they looking after themselves? I would assume because there is hardly any mention of them, and the fact that Margaret was middle-aged, that they were already grown. Also, it probably would've been a little too risky to go out to care for the sick and come back to children, whose immune systems were already vulnerable. Hmm...I guess I kind of answered my own question...but feel free to sound off if you agree or disagree.- Lisa W.<br />
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In her diary, Martha Ballard mentions a man by the name of Mr. Ballard a couple of times, which I’m assuming is her husband. I was curious as to how much control he actually had over her life. I got the impression that midwives were usually widows or were unattached to a man. Does that make her case unusual? She is very independent and very busy, and she seems to do a lot of her healing and midwife duties on her own. -- Jennifer Feldhaus<br />
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--Yes, it was common 18th century practice for a husband and wife to address each other as "Mr. Smith" and "Mrs. Smith" even when writing to each other. Although, the emergence of companionate marriage in some relationships did change that. A more interesting question to me is, in what ways did the Ballards' marriage show signs of the emergence of companionate marriage?.--A. Meyer<br />
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I believe the Ballard's marriage did show characteristics of a companionate marriage. I think the fact that she mentioned her anniversary among her work notes could show that it is something that she is proud of. Also, Martha was a very active midwife and I do not she could have been without support from her husband. - Fiona C.<br />
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In response to Jennifer about Mr. Ballard, who I too assume is her husband, I suppose that he had as much control over some aspects of her life as most men did over their wives. But I also got the impression that he is not always/not often at home. Frequently she wrote about him being off surveying somewhere. But also Martha was an older woman, who had already given birth to children, who did have a vocation and so she did have probably slightly more control then most. At the same time however, she is still known as Mrs. Martha Ballard and her role as a housewife and mother and grandmother takes presidence over her role as a midwife. --Mary P.<br />
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I think Martha uses the name Mr. Ballard, who I am sure is her husband, out of respect and love for her husband as the provider and business man that he is. I know when I was young it was not uncommon for couple who were elderly at that time to refer to themselves as Mr. Smith and Mrs. Smith. Also couples who were business people tended to call each other by their formal names. I am a big fan of the old T.V. series The Walton’s. The Godseys were characters in the show that called each other Mr. Godsey and Mrs. Godsey. They didn’t often use their first name when they where addressing each other. ---Cheryl<br />
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I agree somewhat with Cheryl on why Martha refers to her husband as Mr. Ballard, but maybe this use of full names could give us some idea of why she kept the diary. It was obviously not solely for personal pleasure. Maybe she was keeping it so that later on others could understand it if necessary and she wanted to be clear about who she was referring to. She often references how much she paid for certain services or how much she was paid so I can't help but wonder what exactly this diary was kept for. For her own personal recollection? As some sort of family banking account? As proof of particular jobs and payments? -- Allison J<br />
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While reading over Martha's diary online, I was surprised to read the section about Martha's son and eventual daughter-in-law. The couple had a child out of wedlock but the courts were less concerned with their immoral behavior but rather identifying the father so that the community would not be responsible for supporting the mother and child. Is this evidence of the ongoing shift from a religious to a secular society ? --E. Hufford<br />
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I think it was less that there was a shift to secularism but more that the state did not want to be economically responsible for the mother and child. The less women in the poor house, the less money the government has to fork over. I'm not sure that it dealt with the church. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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Religion still seems to be a very large factor in her life since she notes who in her family went to church on Sunday and she usually gives a clear reason if she doesn't go. She also talks about town meetings during which they decide to hire on preachers, etc. Possibly this concern over the father of the illegitimate child really is just a concern about money. At this time there would obviously be no government programs for single mothers or illegitimate children so something had to be done. Maybe this situation just shows that premarital sex did happen and it happened frequently enough that the community knew that it was important to take action before they were saddled with a child to care for. -- Allison J <br />
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When reading Martha's diary dated the 9th of July 1806, I was appalled when reading of the Purrinton murders. I was shocked in the sense that one does not usually attribute such horrific behavior to that time. Many people today blame suicide-homicides on the society in which we live. I found it intersting and horrifying that such atrocities did happen even two hundred years ago.--E. Hufford<br />
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I have been reading a lot of medical history lately and I found Martha’s diary passages in the winter very interesting in the fact that she gives good details on her ailments. The details are so good it makes me wonder if the fact there are many times during the winter when they are feeling fatigued and colicky that maybe it might be due to lack of a completely balanced diet. Often in the 1700s and 1800s fruits and vegetables are not very abundant. This food items are very high in various vitamins and minerals our body needs. Some of the symptoms Martha wrote about fit some of the vitamin deficiency diseases I am studying. ---Cheryl<br />
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What I would like to know is how Martha Ballard had the time to run her own household and take care of her own family as well as be a busy midwife. She seemed to be on call all the time and at the end of the diary entry in the Woloch book, she said she lost 42 nights of sleep that year! ~Katherine Stinson~<br />
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In response to Katherine's comment I think Martha had more time to focus on being a midwife because her children were all grown up by this time so she did not have to spend anytime on child rearing. I researched her a bit more and found out that she wrote at night while her family slept so she was not spending time during the day on these entries. <br />
Martha Ballard is a wonderful example of an 18th century woman who was not only a dutiful wife and mother but also had a professional role in her community as midwife and healer for thirty years. I found it remarkable that she kept her diary for such a long period of time and made daily entries. Martha also seemed to be very sick throughout some of these years but that did not stop her from performing all her household and professional duties. –Caitlin Quinn<br />
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I agree with Caitlin. Martha Ballard seemed to be a remarkable woman. When I was reading over her diary entries, I kept thinking about one of the essay question on the midterm, about how women played a supporting role in the development of colonial America. Women like Martha Ballard were crucial to early American society. Martha's diligence to her duties as a midwife led her to play a direct role in the future of that community, since children were the future of each generation. Skilled midwives like Martha Ballard played a crucial role in the development of communities like Augusta, proving just as important in their contributions as many of the men. ~Juliann Boyles<br />
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In Woloch's excerpt, I noticed that though the year she delivered 28 babies and 17 of them were "daughters" that is a lot of female babies. Was there something in this town's water that made them all girls? I also would have liked to read about how many of these babies survived the year, and how their mothers were doing. Why did she tell us the number of daughters? Does that show us that she values girl babies over boy babies? Could it be that she was just using short hand and telling us how many of one sex is easier than how many of both? -- Julie Castanien<br />
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I also would like to comment on how cool that website was that had her entire diary. It provided an excellent way of seeing the source first hand while still making it understandable. -- Julie Castanien<br />
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I agree with Julie, I liked how the site explained her dating system and the way she spelled her words. It made it much easier to understand what she was writing. - Elizabeth Frank<br />
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I'm curious about the qualifications for being a midwife. I assume training was fairly informal and reputation seemed to be the only resume. The Woloch reading refers to another, less trustworthy midwife "Mrs. Smith." Why was Smith not trusted? What was the difference between Smith and Ballard?-- Kelly Martin<br />
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After reading Kelly's question, I wondered under what conditions midwives were held responsible for the death of an infant or mother in labor. With limited medical knowledge, how was it determined whether a death (or near-death, as in the case of Mrs. Babcock) was the fault of the midwife or a natural event beyond human aid?-- Ashley H.<br />
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I don't understand how Mrs. Smith still remained a midwife. After many botched medical performances, how come her reputation never got smeared? How was she still being called for medical assistance? Since Mrs. Ballard did note some of Mrs. Smith's faulty doings, was there ever anyone that she could consult in order to get her to stop practicing? It seems like Mrs. Smith being in the picture just made for more "clean-up work" for Mrs. Ballard and more trecherous ailments for her patients.- Lisa W.<br />
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Becoming a midwife seemed to be one of the few ways women could achieve status in the eighteenth century community. I wonder if this contributed to Ballard's desire to seek the role later in life. --Kelly Martin<br />
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There seemed to be little mention of her husband, I wonder why that it is. Maybe he was busy or nothing worth noting happened? I guess since Martha already had six kids, she knew pretty much all one could know about having children, so midwifery seemed like a logical thing for her do. It certainly kept her busy, since she delivers a couple kids every month. The editor characterizes other midwives as 'competitors,' which I found interesting. The thought of midwifery usually doesn't bring competition and economics to my mind. -Christopher Plummer<br />
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Chris raises an interesting question, did many areas have multiple midwives? The Ballards' Augusta-area home seemed to be more on the frontier...--A. Meyer<br />
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Did anyone else find the practice of making women swear the identity of their child's father in the height of labor--so it would be the truth--absolutely absurd? What besides fear of death and pain would make the women be truthful?--A. Meyer<br />
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In response to Andrea's question, I agree that it seems like a ridiculous notion to us. With the very real possibility of death in labor, however, perhaps it was believed that a Christian woman wouldn't risk damnation by lying with death possibly moments away.-- Ashley H.<br />
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I also thought it was interesting how much time and effort Ballard put into her work. She often spent a whole day with her patients and sometimes had to travel long distances or in bad weather. In one year she had lost 42 nights of sleep! - Fiona C.<br />
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The one thing that really stuck out to me, was the comment made before the excerpts from Ballad's diary in the Woloch book, was why Martha would be called in for her job as a midwife. When I read, "or took charge after a delivery by a less trustworthy practitioner, like Mrs. Smith, who may have botched the job." This kind of terrifies me. How many women were allowing practitioners to deliver their children at this point? Were there a lot of them? Or were midwives still the common practice? -- Kelly Wuyscik <br />
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Another common theme I found throughout Ballard's diary was disease and death. Not only did three of her own children die in 1769, but her diary is dotted with funerals and deaths. There were seven or eight deaths in the excerpt from the book alone. --Alex K.<br />
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Since Martha Ballard does make mention of her Puritan faith I was wondering what the Church’s view of midwives would be? Would they fall along the lines that birth is a woman’s “curse” and therefore men should have nothing to do with it? Would they uplift the idea of reproduction and life in the form of childbirth? What would be a secular view? Did urban or rural women prefer one practice over the other? Are there any records of how many women relied on their immediate kin for deliveries and not midwives (or doctors later on)? Some of this information was touched upon with last week’s readings, but I wanted to throw these questions out there and see if the answers are similar or different based upon Ballard’s diary and experiences. –Mary Beth D.<br />
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Martha Ballard appears to have become a pillar of her community through her overwhelming work. I noted that the article mentioned a competitor, making me wonder if pay was a factor of her choice to enter midwifery, or if it was due to other factors such as social status. She seemed to not be spared from any of her normal tasks, even with her incredible commitment to her midwifery. I doubt this would be the same case for a man of a similar work load. --Robert Kopp<br />
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I thought that the diary of Martha Ballard was extremely interesting. I felt rather sorry for her. Her life, from the diary, seemed so repetitive. Constantly visiting the same people and going to the same events. It is clear from her diary entries that she had no time in the day for herself. She was constantly doing chores or running to people’s houses to help them. She did not fill in her journal everyday and each entry was so small that it appeared she had no time for herself. The diary really helps historians see the daily lives of midwives and nurses. What other female occupations can be tracked with such diaries? -- Talya Halpern<br />
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I agree with Talya. What struck me about the diary of Martha Ballard most of all was how short and businesslike her entries were. I have noticed this about other diaries from the time period as well. This is strange to me, for diaries today have become a place were women can write down their innermost thoughts and emotions, a place where one can relieve frustrations. Letters, rather than diaries, seem to contain more emotional sentiment during this time period. I wonder why this is, why diaries more closely resemble government records rather than reflect the personal feelings of the author. ~Juliann Boyles</div>199.111.69.111 Deprecated: header(): Passing null to parameter #3 ($response_code) of type int is deprecated in /home/umwhisto/public_html/mcclurken/wiki/includes/WebResponse.php on line 38