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Deprecated: header(): Passing null to parameter #3 ($response_code) of type int is deprecated in /home/umwhisto/public_html/mcclurken/wiki/includes/WebResponse.php on line 38 https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/api.php?action=feedcontributions&feedformat=atom&user=199.111.68.165McClurken Wiki - User contributions [en]2026-09-18T22:37:29ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.22.0https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_14_Questions/Comments328--Week 14 Questions/Comments2008-04-24T03:55:01Z<p>199.111.68.165: /* Connaught Marshner explains what social conservatives really want, 1988. */</p>
<hr />
<div>MP, 459-469, 506-524<br />
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== Roe v. Wade Decision (both Blackmun’s majority ruling and White’s dissent). ==<br />
I'll take the first whack, since nobody else is touching this yet. First let me say, that a woman's body is her own and should be fully respected. Justice Blackmun mentions the 14th Amendment not recognizing a fetus as a person. This is technically and legally correct. That being said, technology now gives us more information, which perhaps can make choices for women even more difficult. The abortion argument has centered, for quite some time, on one question: When does life begin? At conception, when a fetus is considered viable (22-24 weeks approximately) or at full term. This has been the subject of much debate. The most difficult part of the equation is the inherent EMOTION that will always be involved in this debate, whether one is pro-choice or pro-life. A big part ot the problem also is the extreme rhetoric used by both sides - example. - Pro-lifers screaming "baby Killers" at Planned Parenhood workers; Pro-choice women insisting that their bodies are essentially theirs and theirs alone, even though a 20 week old fetus is kicking her belly, and a 30 week old fetus can make her foot or hand visible on a mother's belly! Unfortunately, common sense in America rarely prevails. RU 486 is still a restricted drug. A pregnancy terminated in the first several weeks, I have no moral qualms with. However, I have to confess to this: I have attended over a dozen fetal ultrasound sessions with my wife, at least two for each of my children, the last many because of a prenatal problem. As of our last child (2006), Ultrasound technology could detect a visible FETAL HEARTBEAT at six to seven weeks gestation. The heartrate is over 150 beats per minute, and resembles a very quickly twinkling star, or almost like a twinkle light on a Christmas tree. Sorry to get emotional, but at this point, this IS A LIFE. At least as far as my wife and I were concerned, we were then charged with the responsiblity of protecting that life however we could. For my wife, it meant taking good care of herself and refraining from alcohol and reducing caffeine intake. For me, it meant stepping up the pace on my end with housework, taking out the cat litter all the time (toxic for pregnant women) and being patient when crying jags and nesting urges kicked in for my better half. But it was all worth it! - Phil Novalski<br />
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== Lindsey Van Gelder reports on “Women vs. the NY Times” in Ms. in 1978. ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Connaught Marshner explains what social conservatives really want, 1988. ==<br />
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I found this essay really interesting. I was shocked by how much this women feared divorce and female independence. Did she honestly think that women that were still "fulfilled" without a man around and raised children without a man in the house were actually ruining society? This was written in 1988!! - Cat Debelius<br />
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I agree with Cat, Marshner's opinions seem somewhat outdated today. But she also seems to be a product of Reagan and many popular opinion shifts of the 1980s. I think the increase in divorce rate as well as the family's decrease of importance "functions once served by the family are now provided by the government" brought about the resurfacing of issues like family and women's obligation to making the home a stable environment. I think that the issue of divorce and the effect it has on a single mother is still an issue today. But Marshner is very narrow minded by stating that traditional values work best. She is stuck in the white middle class ideal and fails to acknowledge that many successful families no longer operate by traditional manner. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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== Planned Parenthood versus Casey, 1992 ==<br />
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<br />
== Gloria Anzaldua soeakes about her identity, 1999 ==<br />
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<br />
== Asma Gull Hasan, Pakistani-American, 2000 ==<br />
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I learned a lot this week in the reading about "First- and Second- Generation Immigrant Women Speak of Living Inbetween Cultures," particularly about Asma Gull Hasan. I learned a great deal about the Muslim culture from her reading that I had only assumed before from the skewed material I've seen from the news. I did not realize that the Qur'an gave women that kind of status and honored them as much as they did. It really was an interesting reading and a learning experience at the same time! --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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== Kyoko Mori, Japanese-American, 2000 ==<br />
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== Jamala McFadden’s Story of 1990s Welfare Assistance, 2002 ==<br />
This is a "feel good story". I love hearing about women beating the odds,for an education, with children no less. Welfare made a difference in McFadden's life because she had drive and ambition and used government assistance to better her life. This is what assistance if for. Too often we hear of people misusing welfare therefore giving a stereotype to its recipients. McFadden spoke of the changes made in the welfare system while she was still in college. She said she was lucky to be "grandfathered" in. I do feel that daycare assistance should be offered to women attending college. To me, this would be money better spent than on women who have a minimum wage jobs. The thought would be like McFadden, these education seeking women would break the chain. --Nikole Wellman<br />
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== Rebecca Walker on the 3rd Wave, 2005 ==<br />
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== Ms.Magazine on 5 rights women could lose, 2005 ==<br />
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Well, this is a frightening thought, however, if this was to happen.... move over Betty Friedan. We will have to make room in the history books for a new set of radicals. This country is not ready for the "Girl Power" we all have. <br />
In all seriousness, These rights will never be taken away. Fist of all, we may just have our first women President in office. There are too many women in powerful positions to loose these five rights Ms. Magazines speaks of. People such as Hillary Clinton, my mother-in-law, Dr. M and myself would not take women take a step back. Before taking this class, I really had no idea how far we've come....We've come too far to go back--Nikole Wellman<br />
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I agree with Nikole, we have gone too far to go back now. I don't see how we could possibly lose any of these rights, I think that too many people would put up a fight if it were to happen. It amazed me at how close these Supreme Court decision were to going the other way. At this time I don't see how it could be possible for someone to not allow a women to take leave for a new baby or to care for a sick family member. At the same time all of this is a little scary that with just a change is members of the Supreme Court and a new case brought forth all of this could change. I just hope that I never have to see the day. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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Well, I think that some of these rights are endanger (if that is the word for it). I mean, I am not sure how I feel about it, but I think there is an agreement to made both for and against Affirmative Action and Protection Against Gender-Based Discrimination. Will society ever reach such a progressive point that we won't need separate laws? If so... when? - Cat Debelius<br />
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As far as gender based discrimination goes I read an interesting article about 6 months ago (of which i do not remember all the specifics) about how dental and medical schools in North Carolina were trying to seperate themselves from the public funded university and become private, so that they would not be controlled by qoutas set by the state. The reason they want to move away from these qoutas is so they don't have to accept as many women to their schools. I believe their reasoning was that professional women tend to work on average less than 15 years, while men work on average over 40 years. Apparently because of the high number of women that had been accepted to the dental and medical schools in the state, North Carolina had a shortage of dentists. Just something to think about - Landon Davis<br />
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Also, I think the other rights will remain protected. Men benefit from most of these rights as much as the women do. I am sure there would be plenty of distraught men if the right to sexual privacy got taken away. Also the rights dealing with familial leave and and quality health services would seem to help men just as much as the women. The affirmative action and the gender based discrimination rights are the only two that men have nothing to gain (from a selfish point of view) from. --Landon Davis<br />
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== US, 565-586 – Rebecca Tsosie, “Changing Women: The Crosscurrents of American Indian Female Identity.”—1988 ==<br />
Prior to reading Rebecca Tsosie's essay "Changing Women: The Crosscurrents of American Indian Feminine Identity," I had never known Native American literature to be so profoundly developed. After reading the article, I definitely have a deep respect for the Native American literature genre. Maybe I will read some of it someday.--Justin Mattos<br />
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Like Justin, I too never realized just how developed the Native American literature was... and it feels silly for it to just now be dawning on me from the stories I have read related to Native Americans and the stories, songs, poems, et cetera that were mentioned in the stories/articles. I wonder why we don't have more of the Native American literature in public school... we seem to have so much in the way of English and American.... --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I agree with Justin, I never realized the extent of Native American literature out there. I have read some picture books that were designed to teach lessons to children, but other than that it never really occurred to me to look to see what else was there. I also too was curious as to why we don't see more of this genre of literature in schools. We have so many varieties of literature in the schools, why not include a few more? --Kellye Sorber<br />
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“Changing Women…” by Rebecca Tsosie discusses the stereotypes that have been created about Indian women through literature and the media. On page 567 she states that “The princess/squaw dichotomy does not even approach the historical realities of Indian women…the primary factor in perceptions of both European women and Indian women became their definition in terms of their relationship with males.” I see her point, but it’s not something that’s special to Indian women. Stereotypes are developed and portrayed for almost any other type of way you can classify a person. In one of the first few weeks of class we read about how the views of Spanish-Mexican women were stereotyped and romanticized through the image that Barceló created for herself… --Jessica Kilday<br />
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<br />
MAW, Chapters 11-13<br />
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== Cathy Tuley, “Clerical Workers Unite,” 1976. ==<br />
Cathy Tuley's involvement in organizing clerical workers helped her personal development by becoming more assertive and self-reliant in the workplace. She refers to utilizing this new found assertiveness in her personal life saying "Sometimes it's kind of rough when you do that to your husband! 'Give me the fact,' you know. 'Prove what you just said.'" This made me think that their was a duality that women had to play between work and home. In work she could be somewhat assertive (depending on her position), and in the home she was expected to remain a subservient role to the man of the house.--LisaM<br />
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== Crystal Lee Sutton, “The Real ‘Norma Rae’ Tells Her Story,” 1986. ==<br />
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Reading "The Real 'Norma Rae' Tells her Story" by Crystal Lee Sutton sure does bring back memories. I remember the first time I dealt with someone like that and coming up with well-reasoned arguments and everything in an attempt to persuade them. It's weird, when someone is not doing what they are supposed to do, why would they actually extend to you common courtesies like honesty. It really doesn't make any sense.--Justin Mattos<br />
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I think it was great that the man JB Younts was so supportive for her to go to the Union meeting and possible join. It seems that the more support Lee got the more she fought for the Union. Did many women make a similar stand to how Lee did? –Ashley Scutari<br />
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I loved this essay. That certainly was a plucky lady. It's well written in a way that, I could almost picture the Big Bossman, grossly overweight, puffing a cigar, trying to intimidate her with his Southern drawl. I can cast his part! She stood up to him, and then had the guts to stand up on a table with a "Union" sign! Cool! Phil Novalski.<br />
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== Susan Eisenberg, “Hard-Hatted Women,” 1988. ==<br />
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I thought the "Hard-hatted Women" essay in MAW was amazing! To learn that she became an electrician and managed to hide her pregnancy for 6 months before finally going on maternity-type leaving was just incredible! I was sad that she had a miscarriage, but was really impressed with how her co-workers supported her. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I understand fully how Eisenberg felt. I found out I was pregnant with my my second son, Nathan, the week before 9/11. We lived in the NJ/NY area at the time and EVERYONE was in fear of loosing their jobs. My fear went a step further thinking if anyone would loose their jobs it would be me. I kept my pregnancy to myself for a while. Then I got over my new hormonal state and dared anyone to discriminate against me. Unlike Eisenberg, I was not in the construction industry and It was 2002. --Nikole Wellman<br />
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I appreciate your comment Nicole. This lady was very impressive. I can only empathize with your fears. Imagine how she must have felt, a pregnant woman on a construction site in the late 1970s? It's good that she did foster some better relationships with co-workers during subsequent pregnancies. Some of the insensitve remarks from her male co-workers were really nasty, but not surprising to me. I worked in trades and roofing some years ago. The thing to remember about men, is that at the end of the day, most of us are insecure little boys who still like to talk about sounds that emanate from our bodies, watch the Three Stooges hit each other with hard objects and laugh out loud, and still like to gawk and make immature noises at attractive women who walk by a work site... we really can't help ourselves as to our simple-mindedness in these areas and really don't mean anything by it. - Phil Novalski.<br />
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== Jessie Lopez De La Cruz, “Organizing the Farm Workers,” 1980 ==<br />
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<br />
== Johnnie Tillmon, “Women on Welfare,” 1972 ==<br />
The movie "Claudine" starring James Earl Jones and Diahann Carroll presents some of the issues raised in "Women on Welfare" by Johnnie Tillmon. When I saw it a few years ago, I remember thinking about how typically 70's it seemed. True it was released in '74, but what I mean is that it seemed to depict exactly what it meant to be black in the 1970's. Has anyone else seen it?--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I do not agree with the A.F.D.C that if a man is in the house, then the family cannot be supplied by welfare. As Johnnie stated, the man could not have a job and be living in the house; therefore he still cannot support his children. Welfare should be for any family that is financial unstable. Has much of the welfare requirements changed since then? <br />
–Ashley Scutari<br />
<br />
"Welfare is a basic right of citizenship," and "housewives should get a legally determined percentage of their husbands income"????? They call this SOCIALISM. While acknowledging that our free-market ideology creates many inequities, these aren't answers either! Ms. Tillman obviously was not an economics major. It's like you guys on campus trying to get a living wage for the groundskeepers. Nice sentiment, won't work too well. Do you understand, that if everyone gets paid a LIVING WAGE for every job, then inflation kicks in, and the value of your $35,000 per year entry-level jobs after you graduate is NIL. Do you really believe its fair, as many are suggesting, that the UMW groundskeepers, janitorial staff, Johnnie Tillman's housewives, and everyone else, now would get a federally mandated minimum wage above the poverty line, say, $30,000 for a family of four? How do you feel now about working to get a degree and only earning a fraction more? Might as well have skipped college! - Phil Novalski.<br />
<br />
== Mariah Burton Nelson, “Sex and Sports” – 1994 ==<br />
I realize it is the point of the view of the author, but I honestly never thought there were so many lesbians in women sports leagues. I just never associated the two. Sure, I've heard other people associate women sports stars and lesbianism, but I never took them seriously. Wow, that's interesting.--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I too was surprised to learn about how many women in sports were actually lesbians in this article. I had never heard anything ever reported on it. I did know that women fought hard to get recognition like the men did in their sorts. I remember watching a show on the women's US soccer team and how they fought for better pay like the male US soccer team as well as how Mia Hamm (sp?) was the one who helped them get that recoginition by doing the Pert shampoo commercials. Even when I think about it today, how many womens sports are actually on TV, I can think of plenty of male sports, like football, baseball, basketball, but women the only one or two I can think of is golf, and I think basketball, I could be wrong on that one though.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
This did not surprise me at all, I know of many female athletes that are lesbians. It was something that growing up with a sister in sports that my family really started to hear of all the lesbians out there. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
I was also not surprised by this article. I think the reason most people are shocked by this information is because women sports are not covered to the same extent that men's sports are. Professional male athletes are idolized and hero-worshiped so when they are homosexual it becomes a really big deal. Professional female athletes however are no where near as popular so their sexuality is not as big a factor. - Christine W.<br />
<br />
<br />
In the introduction to this article it talked about how mens' sports receive 92% of all TV coverage and 81% of all newspaper coverage. The tone of the article seemed to suggest that this was in some way unfair, or that it was somehow based in sexism. Really, I think this has nothing to do with sexism. Male sports just sell better, from my experience they are more exciting to watch, and they obviously draw a larger audience of both male and female viewers alike. So I think that this is based more in business sense than it is in sexism. -- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
== Marissa Navarro, “Becoming La Mujer” – 1998 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Nancy Mairs, “Women and Disabilities” – 1986 ==<br />
I found the Why me? Why not? portion of "Women and Disabilities" by Nancy Mairs to be fairly interesting. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I found myself able to relate to this reading because when I was in middle school my Mom was diagnosed with MS. And I honestly have to say that if my mom hadn't been my hero before, she definitely is now. However, unlike Nancy Mairs my mother would never call herself a cripple, or at least I've never heard her do so, and I believe that this is largely because of the fact that the term cripple makes it sound like you can't do something, and lord help you if you ever tell my mother she can't do something. So I think that one of the reasons that this story stood out to me the most is because I've seen this first hand, yes my Mom can't do half the things she used to be able to do, but she refuses to let it depress her, she's always fighting to keep going and keep walking, but at the same time she does face things that others don't, such as a difficulty getting up and down stairs, which makes it hard for her to do some of the things she used to do. Though I did find it interesting that disabilities weren't talked about much until the 80s. -Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
== Abra Fortune Chernik, “The Voice of an Anorexic” – 1995 ==<br />
<br />
This story really saddened me, because of how this girl viewed her self for so long. I was just glad that it had a happy ending, and that she was lucky enough to have survived as long as she did with this disease. This article just goes to prove that every time period through out the history of women there is an expected stereotype that is portrayed in culture and especially media like for this woman. For example during WWII media portrayed women as working to help to the counry but as soon as the men returned home they were happy to go back to being house wives, which in many cases wasn't true. For Abra Chernik, magazines of pretty skinny models was the new portrait of women, and often still is today.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
== Eve Ensler, “The Vagina Monologues” – 1997 ==<br />
I have heard of "the Vagina Monologues" and I've even seen parts of it, but I never realized how much Ensler had actually been through herself. Being raped when you're such a young girl is traumatic and the fact that she took that and turned it into something positive is empowering. And I agree with her and her theory about the word "vagina." Even today people have a hard time saying the actual word when referencing female (and male) genatalia and they usually use other words or nicknames. It's kind of sad, actually, that even after having sexual education classes and making sure that students today know the parts of the body, people are still so scared to use the real words. Yes, there are publications and television shows and broadway plays that occasionally use the real words, but if you listen to those scripts as well and read those articles you'll notice that other words or phrases normally replace the actual word (unless it's a medical journal, of course.) That's where slang starts. It just goes to show, I guess, that some mind sets never change. --Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
== Susan Faludi, “The Backlash Against Feminism” – 1991 ==<br />
I thought it was interesting to read “The Backlash against Feminism” by Susan Faludi. In it, she points out that even though politicians and the media are continually boasting that women have indeed reached equality and every opportunity is open to them, there is another front that these people are overlooking, and that is emotional. Women still face continual pressure by the media to conform to what is expected of them. As a result there are increasing stories, such as the one by Abra Chernik, of “stress-induced disorders.” It seems as though we are now entering a time where politics may not influence a woman’s limitations in society as much as popular culture. --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
<br />
== Anita Hill, “A Woman of Conscience” – 1991 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Katie Roiphe, “Date Rape: Hysteria or Epidemic?” – 1991 ==<br />
<br />
I had mixed feelings about this reading. I had never thought that the very concept of date rape could enforce the traditional stereotyped sexual roles that women always had of being the ones who don't want sex when men did. However, I also feel like Katie Roiphe, while she has good points, ignores the possibility that some of these women really didn't want sex with these men and instead she seems to have the idea that these women were using the cry of rape to excuse their sexual behaviour. While in some cases this might be true, I highly doubt this is the majority. -Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
Frankly this reading upset me and I disagree with Roiphe. I don't think that society or women use the term rape too lightly. I do think that cultural ideals do send messages to women that they shouldn't act sexual and when they do they should be ashamed of their actions. I believe that this is the issue that really needs to be addressed. The reality is that women are taken advantage of but men are taken advantage of as well. Rape is not one way and too often men are embarressed to admit being pressured into sexual situations because of their gender expectations. Roiphe's generalizing views are not really important when you take rape cases individually, because it's not as simple as "I went on a date and it resulted in sex and it was his fault because I was helpless." Not everyone lived through the same "date rape" situation and if they perceived they had been violated by another then their word should stand. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
Meredith brings up a good point. This is one situation where the sexual double standard actually hurts men. If a guy wakes up the next morning and realizes he slept with someone he did not want to, all he can really call it is a mistake. If a guy woke up and claimed that a girl raped him he would be laughed at (at least by the gentleman i know). I think now-a-days the biggest problem concerning date rape has to be alcohol, i bet very rarely does a sober date rape incident occur. -- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
== Christine Hoff Sommers, “Who Stole Feminism?” – 1994 ==<br />
"What has real feminism to do with sitting around in circles talking about our feelings and menstruation?" HAHAHA. First of all, I'd like to say that Ms. Hoff seems a little bitter about the way women's studies classes are being taught. That said, I think she does raise a valid concern. Most people today (women and men alike) hear the word "feminist" and a negative connotation is automatically thrown with it. Forget the fact that you do not have to be a bra-burning, man-hating, same-sex-loving hippie to be a feminist. Forget the fact that you can be a strong, independent, normal girl and be a feminist. Instead, most people hear "feminist" and automatically throw that first connotation right onto it, and men who admit to being feminists are normally mocked which is a shame. Unlike our dear author, I thought the rules that one class presents to it's students at the beginning of the semester was a fantastic idea. It forces the student to enter the class with an open mind and realize that feminism was a movement fighting oppression just like most other movements. One has to go into the class and acknowledge that oppression exists and that you have to respect your classmate's rights. I disagree with her statement that "anything said in the classroom should be repeatable outside." Yes, I believe that students should not be ashamed to speak their opinion, but when discussing such a tough topic, the fact that someone is voicing their opinion should be enough. If they don't want that repeated outside the walls of their classroom, they shouldn't have to worry about it. I believe it teaches students to respect and trust one another. To be honest, our dear Ms. Hoff kind of bugged me. --Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
== United States v. Virginia (1996), “Equal Protection Under the Law” [VMI case] – 1996 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Jennifer Baumgardner and Amy Richards, “A Third Wave Feminist Manifesta” – 2000 ==<br />
I LOVED the Third Wave Feminist Manifesta. To me, that is what feminism is all about, and that is what women today should be striving for. This is a manifesta for feminists our age and I believe that every point they raise is important. There is nothing outrageous about any of their plans and, in my opinion and as cheesy as this sounds, the list looks to make the world a better place for women. Everything from Point number 1 about outing unacknowledged feminists to point number 13 about passing the Equal Rights Amendment is important (one I love being point number 10 because I hate the demeaning nicknames 12 year olds use for each other these days.) It's a well thought out manifesta and it's kind of scary how much this applies to us. They're talking to our generation and it's just weird to see where the feminist movement has gone since the second wave movement in the 1960s and 1970s. --Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
== Charlotte Bunch, “Global Feminism” – 1995 [at the UN Beijing Women’s Conference] ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Gloria Anzaldua, “The Borderlands” – 1987 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Wow, the head chef of the Roosevelt Hotel in New York City doesn't seem to be that prestigious, if Velma James's 1976 photograph "A Day in the Kitchen" means anything. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
It was kind of strange seeing the photo of Marion Jones in the book.--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
<br />
Must have been strange being a Stanford graduate with a degree in psychology and being asked to go to charm school.--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
<br />
I just have a general comment. It was surprising to me how recent some of these essays were dated. I guess I never thought of this time period as very relevant or active for women's rights... because I guess it is! I mean I would definitely describe myself as a feminists, but I guess I kind of feel that in this day and age... doesn't every women in my age bracket feel like a feminist? Are there actually people in the younger generation today that are advocating for women to be defined by their role of mother and that is it? I think it is great if a women chooses to stay home with her family, but really i just think ti is great if a women chooses whatever makes her happy, no matter what that is. Do all people in this generation not feel this way?- Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
To answer Cat's question, no not everyone in this generation feels that way. There are still debutants in the South who go to school to find a husband and take classes to be good housewives. I also had some girls on my floor freshman year who were forming a housewives club to learn how to cook and clean and be good housewives. - Chrisitne W.</div>199.111.68.165https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_14_Questions/Comments328--Week 14 Questions/Comments2008-04-23T22:38:25Z<p>199.111.68.165: /* Katie Roiphe, “Date Rape: Hysteria or Epidemic?” – 1991 */</p>
<hr />
<div>MP, 459-469, 506-524<br />
<br />
== Roe v. Wade Decision (both Blackmun’s majority ruling and White’s dissent). ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Lindsey Van Gelder reports on “Women vs. the NY Times” in Ms. in 1978. ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Connaught Marshner explains what social conservatives really want, 1988. ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Planned Parenthood versus Casey, 1992 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Gloria Anzaldua soeakes about her identity, 1999 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Asma Gull Hasan, Pakistani-American, 2000 ==<br />
<br />
I learned a lot this week in the reading about "First- and Second- Generation Immigrant Women Speak of Living Inbetween Cultures," particularly about Asma Gull Hasan. I learned a great deal about the Muslim culture from her reading that I had only assumed before from the skewed material I've seen from the news. I did not realize that the Qur'an gave women that kind of status and honored them as much as they did. It really was an interesting reading and a learning experience at the same time! --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
<br />
== Kyoko Mori, Japanese-American, 2000 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Jamala McFadden’s Story of 1990s Welfare Assistance, 2002 ==<br />
This is a "feel good story". I love hearing about women beating the odds,for an education, with children no less. Welfare made a difference in McFadden's life because she had drive and ambition and used government assistance to better her life. This is what assistance if for. Too often we hear of people misusing welfare therefore giving a stereotype to its recipients. McFadden spoke of the changes made in the welfare system while she was still in college. She said she was lucky to be "grandfathered" in. I do feel that daycare assistance should be offered to women attending college. To me, this would be money better spent than on women who have a minimum wage jobs. The thought would be like McFadden, these education seeking women would break the chain. --Nikole Wellman<br />
<br />
== Rebecca Walker on the 3rd Wave, 2005 ==<br />
<br />
== Ms.Magazine on 5 rights women could lose, 2005 ==<br />
<br />
Well, this is a frightening thought, however, if this was to happen.... move over Betty Friedan. We will have to make room in the history books for a new set of radicals. This country is not ready for the "Girl Power" we all have. <br />
In all seriousness, These rights will never be taken away. Fist of all, we may just have our first women President in office. There are too many women in powerful positions to loose these five rights Ms. Magazines speaks of. People such as Hillary Clinton, my mother-in-law, Dr. M and myself would not take women take a step back. Before taking this class, I really had no idea how far we've come....We've come too far to go back--Nikole Wellman<br />
<br />
== US, 565-586 – Rebecca Tsosie, “Changing Women: The Crosscurrents of American Indian Female Identity.”—1988 ==<br />
Prior to reading Rebecca Tsosie's essay "Changing Women: The Crosscurrents of American Indian Feminine Identity," I had never known Native American literature to be so profoundly developed. After reading the article, I definitely have a deep respect for the Native American literature genre. Maybe I will read some of it someday.--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Like Justin, I too never realized just how developed the Native American literature was... and it feels silly for it to just now be dawning on me from the stories I have read related to Native Americans and the stories, songs, poems, et cetera that were mentioned in the stories/articles. I wonder why we don't have more of the Native American literature in public school... we seem to have so much in the way of English and American.... --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I agree with Justin, I never realized the extent of Native American literature out there. I have read some picture books that were designed to teach lessons to children, but other than that it never really occurred to me to look to see what else was there. I also too was curious as to why we don't see more of this genre of literature in schools. We have so many varieties of literature in the schools, why not include a few more? --Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
“Changing Women…” by Rebecca Tsosie discusses the stereotypes that have been created about Indian women through literature and the media. On page 567 she states that “The princess/squaw dichotomy does not even approach the historical realities of Indian women…the primary factor in perceptions of both European women and Indian women became their definition in terms of their relationship with males.” I see her point, but it’s not something that’s special to Indian women. Stereotypes are developed and portrayed for almost any other type of way you can classify a person. In one of the first few weeks of class we read about how the views of Spanish-Mexican women were stereotyped and romanticized through the image that Barceló created for herself… --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
MAW, Chapters 11-13<br />
<br />
== Cathy Tuley, “Clerical Workers Unite,” 1976. ==<br />
Cathy Tuley's involvement in organizing clerical workers helped her personal development by becoming more assertive and self-reliant in the workplace. She refers to utilizing this new found assertiveness in her personal life saying "Sometimes it's kind of rough when you do that to your husband! 'Give me the fact,' you know. 'Prove what you just said.'" This made me think that their was a duality that women had to play between work and home. In work she could be somewhat assertive (depending on her position), and in the home she was expected to remain a subservient role to the man of the house.--LisaM<br />
<br />
== Crystal Lee Sutton, “The Real ‘Norma Rae’ Tells Her Story,” 1986. ==<br />
<br />
Reading "The Real 'Norma Rae' Tells her Story" by Crystal Lee Sutton sure does bring back memories. I remember the first time I dealt with someone like that and coming up with well-reasoned arguments and everything in an attempt to persuade them. It's weird, when someone is not doing what they are supposed to do, why would they actually extend to you common courtesies like honesty. It really doesn't make any sense.--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
== Susan Eisenberg, “Hard-Hatted Women,” 1988. ==<br />
<br />
I thought the "Hard-hatted Women" essay in MAW was amazing! To learn that she became an electrician and managed to hide her pregnancy for 6 months before finally going on maternity-type leaving was just incredible! I was sad that she had a miscarriage, but was really impressed with how her co-workers supported her. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I understand fully how Eisenberg felt. I found out I was pregnant with my my second son, Nathan, the week before 9/11. We lived in the NJ/NY area at the time and EVERYONE was in fear of loosing their jobs. My fear went a step further thinking if anyone would loose their jobs it would be me. I kept my pregnancy to myself for a while. Then I got over my new hormonal state and dared anyone to discriminate against me. Unlike Eisenberg, I was not in the construction industry and It was 2002. --Nikole Wellman<br />
<br />
== Jessie Lopez De La Cruz, “Organizing the Farm Workers,” 1980 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Johnnie Tillmon, “Women on Welfare,” 1972 ==<br />
The movie "Claudine" starring James Earl Jones and Diahann Carroll presents some of the issues raised in "Women on Welfare" by Johnnie Tillmon. When I saw it a few years ago, I remember thinking about how typically 70's it seemed. True it was released in '74, but what I mean is that it seemed to depict exactly what it meant to be black in the 1970's. Has anyone else seen it?--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
<br />
== Mariah Burton Nelson, “Sex and Sports” – 1994 ==<br />
I realize it is the point of the view of the author, but I honestly never thought there were so many lesbians in women sports leagues. I just never associated the two. Sure, I've heard other people associate women sports stars and lesbianism, but I never took them seriously. Wow, that's interesting.--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I too was surprised to learn about how many women in sports were actually lesbians in this article. I had never heard anything ever reported on it. I did know that women fought hard to get recognition like the men did in their sorts. I remember watching a show on the women's US soccer team and how they fought for better pay like the male US soccer team as well as how Mia Hamm (sp?) was the one who helped them get that recoginition by doing the Pert shampoo commercials. Even when I think about it today, how many womens sports are actually on TV, I can think of plenty of male sports, like football, baseball, basketball, but women the only one or two I can think of is golf, and I think basketball, I could be wrong on that one though.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
== Marissa Navarro, “Becoming La Mujer” – 1998 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Nancy Mairs, “Women and Disabilities” – 1986 ==<br />
I found the Why me? Why not? portion of "Women and Disabilities" by Nancy Mairs to be fairly interesting. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I found myself able to relate to this reading because when I was in middle school my Mom was diagnosed with MS. And I honestly have to say that if my mom hadn't been my hero before, she definitely is now. However, unlike Nancy Mairs my mother would never call herself a cripple, or at least I've never heard her do so, and I believe that this is largely because of the fact that the term cripple makes it sound like you can't do something, and lord help you if you ever tell my mother she can't do something. So I think that one of the reasons that this story stood out to me the most is because I've seen this first hand, yes my Mom can't do half the things she used to be able to do, but she refuses to let it depress her, she's always fighting to keep going and keep walking, but at the same time she does face things that others don't, such as a difficulty getting up and down stairs, which makes it hard for her to do some of the things she used to do. Though I did find it interesting that disabilities weren't talked about much until the 80s. -Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
== Abra Fortune Chernik, “The Voice of an Anorexic” – 1995 ==<br />
<br />
This story really saddened me, because of how this girl viewed her self for so long. I was just glad that it had a happy ending, and that she was lucky enough to have survived as long as she did with this disease. This article just goes to prove that every time period through out the history of women there is an expected stereotype that is portrayed in culture and especially media like for this woman. For example during WWII media portrayed women as working to help to the counry but as soon as the men returned home they were happy to go back to being house wives, which in many cases wasn't true. For Abra Chernik, magazines of pretty skinny models was the new portrait of women, and often still is today.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
== Eve Ensler, “The Vagina Monologues” – 1997 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Susan Faludi, “The Backlash Against Feminism” – 1991 ==<br />
I thought it was interesting to read “The Backlash against Feminism” by Susan Faludi. In it, she points out that even though politicians and the media are continually boasting that women have indeed reached equality and every opportunity is open to them, there is another front that these people are overlooking, and that is emotional. Women still face continual pressure by the media to conform to what is expected of them. As a result there are increasing stories, such as the one by Abra Chernik, of “stress-induced disorders.” It seems as though we are now entering a time where politics may not influence a woman’s limitations in society as much as popular culture. --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
<br />
== Anita Hill, “A Woman of Conscience” – 1991 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Katie Roiphe, “Date Rape: Hysteria or Epidemic?” – 1991 ==<br />
<br />
I had mixed feelings about this reading. I had never thought that the very concept of date rape could enforce the traditional stereotyped sexual roles that women always had of being the ones who don't want sex when men did. However, I also feel like Katie Roiphe, while she has good points, ignores the possibility that some of these women really didn't want sex with these men and instead she seems to have the idea that these women were using the cry of rape to excuse their sexual behaviour. While in some cases this might be true, I highly doubt this is the majority. -Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
Frankly this reading upset me and I disagree with Roiphe. I don't think that society or women use the term rape too lightly. I do think that cultural ideals do send messages to women that they shouldn't act sexual and when they do they should be ashamed of their actions. I believe that this is the issue that really needs to be addressed. The reality is that women are taken advantage of but men are taken advantage of as well. Rape is not one way and too often men are embarressed to admit being pressured into sexual situations because of their gender expectations. Roiphe's generalizing views are not really important when you take rape cases individually, because it's not as simple as "I went on a date and it resulted in sex and it was his fault because I was helpless." Not everyone lived through the same "date rape" situation and if they perceived they had been violated by another then their word should stand. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
== Christine Hoff Sommers, “Who Stole Feminism?” – 1994 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== United States v. Virginia (1996), “Equal Protection Under the Law” [VMI case] – 1996 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Jennifer Baumgardner and Amy Richards, “A Third Wave Feminist Manifesta” – 2000 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Charlotte Bunch, “Global Feminism” – 1995 [at the UN Beijing Women’s Conference] ==<br />
<br />
<br />
== Gloria Anzaldua, “The Borderlands” – 1987 ==<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
Wow, the head chef of the Roosevelt Hotel in New York City doesn't seem to be that prestigious, if Velma James's 1976 photograph "A Day in the Kitchen" means anything. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
It was kind of strange seeing the photo of Marion Jones in the book.--Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
<br />
Must have been strange being a Stanford graduate with a degree in psychology and being asked to go to charm school.--Justin Mattos</div>199.111.68.165https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_13_Questions/Comments328--Week 13 Questions/Comments2008-04-16T01:35:49Z<p>199.111.68.165: </p>
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<div>'''In addition to the interview writing assignment, everyone is expected to look over the other interviews and discuss them in our wiki here. What patterns do you see? What experiences stand out? Did these interviews challenge or meet with the trends we've talked about in class?<br />
<br />
NOTE: You do not need to post about the reading for April 17 (though you are responsible for reading it).'''<br />
<br />
<br />
When looking through all of the interviews, there were a lot of different trends that stand out. The first thing I noticed was that many of the women who grew up in rural areas had similar experiences in small school houses and growing up with farm life. Some of them noted that they had less technology available to them that many other women, who lived in less rural areas, started using earlier. --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I think it is important to consider geography when looking at some of the different experiences of women in the 20th century. I don’t know how much it was emphasized in my paper, but in my interview with Pat Teevan she said that women were expected to stay at home until they were married, but she didn’t marry. If she stayed in Boston then she would have been expected to live in her parent’s house, that’s why she moved to DC. This was also seen in the interview with Mary Nolan in Pennsylvania, as a single girl, “she never considered getting her own apartment.” When looking at the interviews of many of the women who grew up in the north (Massachusetts, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, NY, etc.), it seems like a lot of these women were more likely to be independent. --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
After looking through a lot of the papers the trend I noticed was that all these women had some type of education. Also a lot of theme weren't feminists, however their mothers did encourage them to go to school until high school and even a good amount went to college. But a good majority did leave high school get a job and get married, a trend that I noticed is a lot of them had children with in the first year or so of their marriages. There was no wait period like today, some people wait 5-6 years. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
My grandma made a point of noting that when she was in high school her mother made sure she learned something she could use later in life. She took shorthand, typing and stenography, all skills used in clerical work, some of the other women I noticed had taken similar courses and took jobs as secretaries. The women in a lot of these papers took the jobs that were saved for women, secretarial and school teachers. My grandma before she even finished school was doing some clerical work, and when she graduated she went into the military but ended up being a secretary in the pentagon. All these women were your typical American women, taking the stereotypical job and then became a homemaker. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
Commenting on Jessica's point on how northern girls seemed like they were more important. I feel like this could because of the fact that a large portion of the north was cities, NY, CONN is very close to NY, Mass has Boston, with all these cities there are mor job options. Also girls that wanted to get out of their rural homes went to Urban area to find a job an a place to live and as we know there are thousands of apartments women could move into. From what we have learned, women in the past who went to the cities were always more independent, because they had left home. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
After reading accounts of numerous women's lives it becomes quite clear how rare it was for women living during the 20th century to become professionals. Even when these women did go to college and were encouraged by their mothers to be independent, it seemed as if most ended up finding a husband and adapting to his lifestyle. I think that there would be such a drastic difference in the probability of getting an interview with a professional woman today. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
Something I noticed alot in the interviews were how many women actually went to college. That relates a lot to what we've been looking at in this class, because so many women did go to college but it oftened so to be a waist because they didn't really use their education, and that is apparent too in these interviews. Some either thought they were going to college but then suddenly decided to get married instead, or others did go to college and then they got married but still ended up staying home once married or had children. In one interview it talked about how married women didn't work or simply weren't hired as well as didn't come back to work at all once married or pregnant, which is something we've talked a lot about in this class. Even in my own interview, she realized that a lot her friends got married right out of high school and if you didn't then you went off to college.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
Also I there were several women who experienced war at one point in time in their life, whether it was WWII or Vietnam, they remember it and the affects it had on their family. I liked Jessica's remark about geography, because two of the interviews (maybe more) were women who were from West Viginia, and I thought it was particularly interesting how segregation played no part in their part of the country, and even how her school had a black student body president. I think that is amazing and even goes to prove that racism wasn't everywhere, even though it was wide spread through the country that there was at least once place were it didn't seem to matter. I wonder if there were any other places like that? Because you mostly here about the segragation in the south, well what about the rest of the country?--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
Ashley's interview with Audrey Gunnoe really struck me as different from other interviews of women who grew up in rural areas. The fact that she was discouraged from school and expected to marry so early seems very out of place compared to the US as a whole. I also thought that her transition from the extremes of rural to urban life also made her experiences (her career and later beliefs) stand out from the others. It seemed that so much of what path the others eventually took was determined by where they grew up and what ideals their parents enstilled in them. With Gunnoe this was not the case. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
Another pattern that I noticed was just how pervasive WWII was on these women specifically because of how many had husbands/boyfriends who served. I don't think that there is the same impact on women today because of how rare it is to hear a woman in college talk about her boyfriend or husband serving. Although it definitely happens it is nothing compared to the recollection of the women we interviewed. All the men, rural, urban, suburban, were serving. The impact of the distance between loved ones seemed more relevant on the memory of these women than the jobs the war opened. -- Meredith Bojarski</div>199.111.68.165https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_13_Questions/Comments328--Week 13 Questions/Comments2008-04-16T00:17:45Z<p>199.111.68.165: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''In addition to the interview writing assignment, everyone is expected to look over the other interviews and discuss them in our wiki here. What patterns do you see? What experiences stand out? Did these interviews challenge or meet with the trends we've talked about in class?<br />
<br />
NOTE: You do not need to post about the reading for April 17 (though you are responsible for reading it).'''<br />
<br />
<br />
When looking through all of the interviews, there were a lot of different trends that stand out. The first thing I noticed was that many of the women who grew up in rural areas had similar experiences in small school houses and growing up with farm life. Some of them noted that they had less technology available to them that many other women, who lived in less rural areas, started using earlier. --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I think it is important to consider geography when looking at some of the different experiences of women in the 20th century. I don’t know how much it was emphasized in my paper, but in my interview with Pat Teevan she said that women were expected to stay at home until they were married, but she didn’t marry. If she stayed in Boston then she would have been expected to live in her parent’s house, that’s why she moved to DC. This was also seen in the interview with Mary Nolan in Pennsylvania, as a single girl, “she never considered getting her own apartment.” When looking at the interviews of many of the women who grew up in the north (Massachusetts, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, NY, etc.), it seems like a lot of these women were more likely to be independent. --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
After looking through a lot of the papers the trend I noticed was that all these women had some type of education. Also a lot of theme weren't feminists, however their mothers did encourage them to go to school until high school and even a good amount went to college. But a good majority did leave high school get a job and get married, a trend that I noticed is a lot of them had children with in the first year or so of their marriages. There was no wait period like today, some people wait 5-6 years. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
My grandma made a point of noting that when she was in high school her mother made sure she learned something she could use later in life. She took shorthand, typing and stenography, all skills used in clerical work, some of the other women I noticed had taken similar courses and took jobs as secretaries. The women in a lot of these papers took the jobs that were saved for women, secretarial and school teachers. My grandma before she even finished school was doing some clerical work, and when she graduated she went into the military but ended up being a secretary in the pentagon. All these women were your typical American women, taking the stereotypical job and then became a homemaker. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
Commenting on Jessica's point on how northern girls seemed like they were more important. I feel like this could because of the fact that a large portion of the north was cities, NY, CONN is very close to NY, Mass has Boston, with all these cities there are mor job options. Also girls that wanted to get out of their rural homes went to Urban area to find a job an a place to live and as we know there are thousands of apartments women could move into. From what we have learned, women in the past who went to the cities were always more independent, because they had left home. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
After reading accounts of numerous women's lives it becomes quite clear how rare it was for women living during the 20th century to become professionals. Even when these women did go to college and were encouraged by their mothers to be independent, it seemed as if most ended up finding a husband and adapting to his lifestyle. I think that there would be such a drastic difference in the probability of getting an interview with a professional woman today. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
Something I noticed alot in the interviews were how many women actually went to college. That relates a lot to what we've been looking at in this class, because so many women did go to college but it oftened so to be a waist because they didn't really use their education, and that is apparent too in these interviews. Some either thought they were going to college but then suddenly decided to get married instead, or others did go to college and then they got married but still ended up staying home once married or had children. In one interview it talked about how married women didn't work or simply weren't hired as well as didn't come back to work at all once married or pregnant, which is something we've talked a lot about in this class. Even in my own interview, she realized that a lot her friends got married right out of high school and if you didn't then you went off to college.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
Also I there were several women who experienced war at one point in time in their life, whether it was WWII or Vietnam, they remember it and the affects it had on their family. I liked Jessica's remark about geography, because two of the interviews (maybe more) were women who were from West Viginia, and I thought it was particularly interesting how segregation played no part in their part of the country, and even how her school had a black student body president. I think that is amazing and even goes to prove that racism wasn't everywhere, even though it was wide spread through the country that there was at least once place were it didn't seem to matter. I wonder if there were any other places like that? Because you mostly here about the segragation in the south, well what about the rest of the country?--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
Ashley's interview with Audrey Gunnoe really struck me as different from other interviews of women who grew up in rural areas. The fact that she was discouraged from school and expected to marry so early seems very out of place compared to the US as a whole. I also thought that her transition from the extremes of rural to urban life also made her experiences (her career and later beliefs) stand out from the others. It seemed that so much of what path the others eventually took was determined by where they grew up and what ideals their parents enstilled in them. With Gunnoe this was not the case. -- Meredith Bojarski</div>199.111.68.165https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_13_Questions/Comments328--Week 13 Questions/Comments2008-04-15T23:52:54Z<p>199.111.68.165: </p>
<hr />
<div>'''In addition to the interview writing assignment, everyone is expected to look over the other interviews and discuss them in our wiki here. What patterns do you see? What experiences stand out? Did these interviews challenge or meet with the trends we've talked about in class?<br />
<br />
NOTE: You do not need to post about the reading for April 17 (though you are responsible for reading it).'''<br />
<br />
<br />
When looking through all of the interviews, there were a lot of different trends that stand out. The first thing I noticed was that many of the women who grew up in rural areas had similar experiences in small school houses and growing up with farm life. Some of them noted that they had less technology available to them that many other women, who lived in less rural areas, started using earlier. --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I think it is important to consider geography when looking at some of the different experiences of women in the 20th century. I don’t know how much it was emphasized in my paper, but in my interview with Pat Teevan she said that women were expected to stay at home until they were married, but she didn’t marry. If she stayed in Boston then she would have been expected to live in her parent’s house, that’s why she moved to DC. This was also seen in the interview with Mary Nolan in Pennsylvania, as a single girl, “she never considered getting her own apartment.” When looking at the interviews of many of the women who grew up in the north (Massachusetts, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, NY, etc.), it seems like a lot of these women were more likely to be independent. --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
After looking through a lot of the papers the trend I noticed was that all these women had some type of education. Also a lot of theme weren't feminists, however their mothers did encourage them to go to school until high school and even a good amount went to college. But a good majority did leave high school get a job and get married, a trend that I noticed is a lot of them had children with in the first year or so of their marriages. There was no wait period like today, some people wait 5-6 years. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
My grandma made a point of noting that when she was in high school her mother made sure she learned something she could use later in life. She took shorthand, typing and stenography, all skills used in clerical work, some of the other women I noticed had taken similar courses and took jobs as secretaries. The women in a lot of these papers took the jobs that were saved for women, secretarial and school teachers. My grandma before she even finished school was doing some clerical work, and when she graduated she went into the military but ended up being a secretary in the pentagon. All these women were your typical American women, taking the stereotypical job and then became a homemaker. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
Commenting on Jessica's point on how northern girls seemed like they were more important. I feel like this could because of the fact that a large portion of the north was cities, NY, CONN is very close to NY, Mass has Boston, with all these cities there are mor job options. Also girls that wanted to get out of their rural homes went to Urban area to find a job an a place to live and as we know there are thousands of apartments women could move into. From what we have learned, women in the past who went to the cities were always more independent, because they had left home. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
After reading accounts of numerous women's lives it becomes quite clear how rare it was for women living during the 20th century to become professionals. Even when these women did go to college and were encouraged by their mothers to be independent, it seemed as if most ended up finding a husband and adapting to his lifestyle. I think that there would be such a drastic difference in the probability of getting an interview with a professional woman today. -- Meredith Bojarski</div>199.111.68.165https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_12_Questions/Comments328--Week 12 Questions/Comments2008-04-10T04:16:26Z<p>199.111.68.165: /* Cynthia Griggs Fleming, “Ruby Doris Smith Robinson and Black Women’s Leadership in SNCC” */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Rosa Parks and Virginia Foster Durr ==<br />
<br />
<br />
I too have heard of Rosa Parks story but never the details like this article had. What I thought was so interesting was how a bus boycott lasted a year and how all of the black people denied having anything to do with it, and their white bosses went along with the lie, because they needed people to do stuff around their house, and take care of their children. Not only that but everyone new that everyone was lying and there was nothing that anyone could do about it other than cops writing stupid tickets. When the boycott was over I wonder if their were still problems (I imagine so), because there is always that one person who ruins it for everyone, or starts trouble.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
I enjoyed the piece this week that focused mostly on Mrs. Rose Parks in MAW. I always knew the general story about Mrs. Parks, but never details to this extent. I knew there was a bus boycott, but I didn't realize it went on for a year. Just think of the revenue the bus companies suffered. I wonder why it lasted so long. Mrs. Parks really was a remarkable woman though. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I really enjoyed this article on Rosa Parks. I knew about her and what she did but never really knew all the details. There seemed to be so much more to the story than I had always been told. I really liked how it talked about going to get her at the jail and then the trial. It is amazing to me that she started so much without really realizing it. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
The story of Rosa Parks to me is both saddening and uplighting at the same time if that's possible. We know the black perspective on the issue but what was the white's perspective? Did all the white feels the same way and come to the same agreement or were there varying opinions? What did the white people on the bus think that day in history? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
<br />
I found it interesting in the reading in “Civil Rights Activists” (in MAW) that the black men and women who participated in the bus boycott refused to admit it. Were there any legal actions that could have been taken for participating in the boycott? It also talked about some of the legal actions that were taken toward both black and white women who seemed to be aiding in the boycott. “The black people formed car pools, and the city tried cracking down on them by arresting the drivers for going two miles an hour over the speed limit,” (224). Were they really being arrested in the sense that they were being taken to jail, or were they fined and ticketed? You would think that arresting a lot of people for a crime this small would eventually just cost the city more money and resources than necessary. --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I also found this piece well pretty awesome. I agree with Kelley when she said, its amazing how Rosa Parks started such a strong movement without even realizing it. Something that I also found interesting was the unspoken support, when people would talk to others about not taking the bus, that it is nice of them to support the boycott, and people would reply with any excuse possible on why they are not taking the bus. I also liked how the white women supported it as well, even though it was for their own agenda, but when the police started to pull them over I loved how they would respond,saying if you want to come clean my house then fine but until then I will keep driving her to and from her home. The fact that even whites were participating in the boycott really shows the impact that Rosa Parks had. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
I thought a really important part of the Montgomery bus boycotts was the fact that it was almost necessary that black women stayed quiet. I would have assumed, not reading this piece, that most participants would have been proud of being a part of the cause and I was quite surprised to find out that they were silent. I didn't think that admitting to participating could be as risky as it was. In reality women could have lost jobs or face legal fines for such a simple action. Their silence was ultimately their weapon. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
I found it really interesting to read about Rosa Parks and the bus boycott. It was interesting how those who were boycotting would not admit they were doing it. Were they expecting a backlash for boycotting? The way I have always thought of the civil rights movement was that they were proud of their convictions and strongly supported the movement. By boycotting they were supporting the movement but why deny it when asked? That seems strange to me.~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
<br />
Like many of my classmates the detail about this article that struck me was the fact that many of the men and women who were participating in the boycott denied it when they were asked. I would have thought that because its an issue they clearly felt strongly about that they would be willing to admit that they were a part of it. I also enjoyed seeing that the white women supported the black women through this, even if it was simply because they needed someone at their house to do the work. Although i do wonder, how much of it was because of that or were they, like the black men and women, using it as an excuse to cover up their support?- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
I thought this article was very interesting. I too have heard the Rosa Parks story many times but never with this much detail. The thing that surprised me the most was the support the white women gave the black women. I was not surprised the balck women lied about their involvement because that would be dangerous for them. I was surprised to hear about all the white women who would drive their black maids to and from work and then deny it. It was also interesting to read about how the cops tried to stop it by giving tickets to any one they thought was supporting the boycott. - Christine W.<br />
<br />
Just a random comment: Before I read this I didn’t know that Rosa Parks was sitting in the section of the bus for African Americas and only when the white section was full did the bus driver ask her to vacate her seat for a white man. I always thought she was sitting in the first seat on the bus. It really doesn’t matter where she was sitting, the whole thing is wrong. It just changed the mental image of this historic scene in my head. Also… I know that gender ideals were really strict at this time… in this situation how did a man balance gender with race? Like, the guy on the bus that Rosa Parks was suppose to give her seat to… did he think “I should stand and let the lady sit.” When did people’s concepts of race trump there concept of gender norms? – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
Also I agree with everyone that this was an awesome article you really could see the history being made with so many important figures in their early stages, and the ordinary people on the outskirts who really made it all possible. One question that came to my mind as i was reading was: Did the cops write those tickets out of their own personal rejudice or was there an order from the powers that be? ---- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
Rosa is a hero, I feel that her friend Virginia Foster Durr is as well. As a white women to fight for civil rights in the 50's is remarkable. Together with her husband, they did what they could for the cause, even getting a traffic ticket as a result of transporting black women to and from work. --Nikole Wellman<br />
<br />
<br />
Why didn't the NAACP set something like this up sooner, and on purpose. If I was a leader of the NAACP I would have black people out breaking all kinds of minor laws like that, in order to get to court and challenge the constitutionality. Once they won the case did they begin to do this? ----- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
It was so interesting how the women who supported the bus boycott denied why they were walking home. It is understandable that in such a volatile situation they wouldn't admit to what they were doing. But I still found it extremely brave that these women still did it even though they were afraid. -Kendall Haring<br />
<br />
I just want to discuss what Amanda said a little more about white support of the Civil Rights Movement. The way the Durr's immediately rushed to help Rosa Parks after her arrest was remarkable to me. Cliff didn't hesitate because he would be bailing a black woman out of jail, he hesitated because he didn't have the money. To me, that amount of interracial support is incredible, especially when it came to offering women rides during the boycott. Please tell me this is more popular than I get the feeling it was. --Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
I also found it interesting that black and white women had to lie about supporting the bus boycott. Society still needed money to support their families and to have jobs available. The boycott was definitely an improvement for the civil rights movement just society could not completely stop to support it. –Ashley Scutari<br />
<br />
== Cynthia Griggs Fleming, “Ruby Doris Smith Robinson and Black Women’s Leadership in SNCC” ==<br />
<br />
The entire time I was reading this essay, the only thing running through my mind was, "Good grief Robinson is incredible!" What I truly loved about her is that she cared for the movement. She wasn't about appearances, she wasn't about making herself known, she wasn't about making the world aware of how much she did, she just went after what she believed in. She pushed boundaries and, as a black woman during a white return to domesticity, really stood up for her beliefs. We read and learn about Rosa Parks and Ella Baker and all these other prominent women involved with the Civil Rights movement and all of it is empowering. Reading about even more women than the "big names" that we've all known since elementary school makes it that much more impressive. These women went against overwhelming odds and had their femininity attacked because of the way they stepped outside their "feminine roles." It's impressive how involved women were in the Civil Rights movement, as well as how high up their positions were within the organizations. However, I'm still having a hard time grasping the fact that Ruby was a debutante. And, as a former majorette myself, I'm proud to learn she twirled a baton at one point too. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
I also really enjoyed this article and fully believe that Ruby Doris Smith Robinson is a role model that all people should look up to. She was involved in the movement because it was something that she really believed in, and she truly did not want any publicity out of it, which I loved reading because a lot of times today when someone does something good its always wondering if they did it because they cared or because they wanted the attention. I also enjoyed reading about how their femininity came under attack because of their leadership positions- but I'm also wondering how often this still happens today?- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
I find it interesting that the black women's feminity was questioned because of their activism. "Even though the behavior of black women activists did not always fit contemporary notions of proper female behavior, it did fit comfortably into an established tradition of black female assertiveness."(548) The essay also goes on to state that the feminine side was important to the activist women, but I wondered if their perception of feminine was based on a "white" middle-class ideal.--LisaM<br />
<br />
I think Fleming's piece goes to show that the unpublicized, unrecognized nature of Robinson represents the work of African American women during the civil rights efforts, in general. As one worker states, "We've been getting beaten up for years trying to integrate lunch counters, movies, and so on...But these white girls come down here for a few months and get all the publicity. Everybody talks about how brave and courageous they are. What about us?"(549) All I could think after reading was, what were white women doing that was honestly comparatively newsworthy? I can imagine a reason for racial tensions amoung women after reading this piece. I think that black women were not getting the "right" type of publicity that they sought for their causes from southern institutions. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
== Mirta Vidal Reports on the Rising Consciousness of the Chicana About Her Special Oppression, 1971. ==<br />
<br />
After reading the article in MP, I feel like the arguments Chicanas had were no different than other races. Obviously they had some fair arguments to make but issues such as female oppresion and childcare, didn't everyone have that same problem unless you were a member of the upper class? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
<br />
The reading in MP deals with the Chicanas growing awareness of their oppression. Many of the challenges they faced were similar to those of women of other races, however, they were oppressed as a “nationality, as workers, and as women,” (455). Within their own race, men had trouble dealing with their opposition to their oppression because they feared that it wouldn’t threaten their own power. Many of the things these women fought for, affected them as women (i.e. abortion, childcare, contraception, etc…), so how would this “pose a threat to their ability to rule?” (456). I think Vidal makes a good point in the end when she basically says that there needs to be equality within the race itself (i.e. between chicanas and Chicanos) before the race, in its entirety, can be seen as an equal in society. This brings up the idea or debate on how much influence intra-racial discrimination has on inter-racial discrimination. --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I agree with Rose, after reading this article I had a hard time seeing how the problems the Chicanas had were any different than the problems of other women. I understand that people of different races do have different issues and experiences, I just felt like this article did not do a good job of demonstarting those differences. - Christine W.<br />
<br />
If female inferiority is such an “Anglo thing” how did it get incorporated into so many other cultures? I feel like it is prevalent all over the world. – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
Kind of builidng of what Cat said about the "Anglo thing" I found it very interesting that the men tried to opress the women by comparing there movements to those of white peoples'. This shows that they obviously did not care for our culture or ways very much and had a negative opinion of white people as a whole. I have noticed this same tool being used to try and manipulate people of other races, and times especially within the white community (linking feminism to lesbianism, and communists).---Landon Davis<br />
<br />
I like the point that Jessica brought out of the reading. With the inequality within a race, how are the Chicanas ever going to free of racial oppression from other races? If they can't even respect other Chicanas regardless of class, then I agree with Vidal's point. Equality has to start within your own race before you can receive respect from others outside of your culture. -Kendall Haring<br />
<br />
I agree with Rose too on how other women were struggling with the same situations, it was not just the Chicanas. What I felt was unfair was the statement about how the doctor without the woman’s consent wanted to see her reaction when given placebo pills that did not prevent conception. His main reason for this was that women would not understand the difference between birth control pills and placebos. –Ashley Scutari<br />
<br />
I snickered at the "Anglo thing" comment as well. Mirta Vidal wanted control over her own body so she can have have a right to have a legal abortion, child care, rights to use contraceptives....but The Women's Liberations Movement was a "Anglo thing". The Chicana's organize their one group working towards the same goal as white women. Both groups could have been one super strong group if they worked together... you know ..."Girl Power" --Nikole Wellman<br />
<br />
== Naomi Craig's interview ==<br />
<br />
Mrs. Naomi Craig's interview really lets the reader get a feel for how life was for her and her children. There were hard times, but they dealt with them. She discussed the problems she had with finding a house and a job just because of the color of her skin. She also never agreed with the Vietnam and what it did to children and their mother's who couldn't afford to send their children to college to get out of the draft. I know my dad had a draft card # for the Vietnam war and almost had to go... they got within 10 calls of his number before the war was declared over. I would hate to know the feeling that just because you can't afford college, you HAVE to go fight that war... --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
Naomi Craig's interview, she talks about how her and her husband had a hard time buying a home, and she addressed the issue how blacks also had a hard time getting jobs. I had to read "The Orgins of the Urban Crisis" for this week in my American Landscape class and it talks about exactly what she has adressed here in her interview. You would think that realtors wouldn't care who they were selling too, as long as they were making money doing it. I also couldn't believe how difficult they made it for black people to get a job. Also the book talked about how the realtors would use the fact that whites wanted to move if one black person moved into their neighborhood to their advantage to profit more. Although it only talked about the city of Detroit this obviously happened in other places. Most neighborhoods today are still mostly one race. Do we do it on purpose or not still? How many of you have come from a mostly white or mostly black neighborhood?--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
Naomi Craig's interview was very interesting and eye opening for me. I knew about the hardships that blacks faced but at the same time I really didn't understand them. Reading her interview really showed what she had to deal with. I guess since it was more like a story or listening to someone tell stories it made it all seem much more real. I was really surprised to read about how her daughter who was 3 years younger then her son was able to finish school at the same time just because she was interested in studying. That is something so difficult to do and I would have thought it almost not possible for blacks at the time due to segregation. When she talked about Martin Luther King's assassination it made it really showed her feeling. It was a hard time for many people and you can really see how is death affected her when she said "When Martin Luther King died I felt as though the light had gone out of the world." -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
To me my favorite history to read are the personal accounts of real people, anyone can write about anything, but the emotions that come alive in a personal account is so much more. Naomi Craig's interview really fascinated me, because for years and this semester I have been learning about all the hardships blacks had to face, but I really didn't know the real extent of it all. I love that her children succeeded in their lives despite all the segregation, that her daughter who was 3 years younger then her brother graduated at the same time. I feel like this was possible because they had lived in the north but, the north wasn't that much of an easier place to live then the south. I think my favorite line was when Craig was talking about how she went out to get a job when she finished high school and she was told there was no way she was going to find a job. When she says "And here I was dressed lovely, thinking that was the right first step. And here was some dowdy, ugly woman telling me I couldn't have a job." I just started laughing because it is a response any woman would have given to the situation. I can totally see where Craig is coming from, why is this ugly woman so special that she can have a job over a pretty black girl? If you are going to base hiring people on skin color why not hire them based on their looks as well?It truly is amazing to me how these people went through so much and so many of them came out with their heads held high, it really shows how strong a people they were and are today. -- Amanda Taub</div>199.111.68.165https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_12_Questions/Comments328--Week 12 Questions/Comments2008-04-09T20:14:58Z<p>199.111.68.165: /* Rosa Parks and Virginia Foster Durr */</p>
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<div>== Rosa Parks and Virginia Foster Durr ==<br />
<br />
<br />
I too have heard of Rosa Parks story but never the details like this article had. What I thought was so interesting was how a bus boycott lasted a year and how all of the black people denied having anything to do with it, and their white bosses went along with the lie, because they needed people to do stuff around their house, and take care of their children. Not only that but everyone new that everyone was lying and there was nothing that anyone could do about it other than cops writing stupid tickets. When the boycott was over I wonder if their were still problems (I imagine so), because there is always that one person who ruins it for everyone, or starts trouble.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
I enjoyed the piece this week that focused mostly on Mrs. Rose Parks in MAW. I always knew the general story about Mrs. Parks, but never details to this extent. I knew there was a bus boycott, but I didn't realize it went on for a year. Just think of the revenue the bus companies suffered. I wonder why it lasted so long. Mrs. Parks really was a remarkable woman though. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I really enjoyed this article on Rosa Parks. I knew about her and what she did but never really knew all the details. There seemed to be so much more to the story than I had always been told. I really liked how it talked about going to get her at the jail and then the trial. It is amazing to me that she started so much without really realizing it. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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The story of Rosa Parks to me is both saddening and uplighting at the same time if that's possible. We know the black perspective on the issue but what was the white's perspective? Did all the white feels the same way and come to the same agreement or were there varying opinions? What did the white people on the bus think that day in history? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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I found it interesting in the reading in “Civil Rights Activists” (in MAW) that the black men and women who participated in the bus boycott refused to admit it. Were there any legal actions that could have been taken for participating in the boycott? It also talked about some of the legal actions that were taken toward both black and white women who seemed to be aiding in the boycott. “The black people formed car pools, and the city tried cracking down on them by arresting the drivers for going two miles an hour over the speed limit,” (224). Were they really being arrested in the sense that they were being taken to jail, or were they fined and ticketed? You would think that arresting a lot of people for a crime this small would eventually just cost the city more money and resources than necessary. --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I also found this piece well pretty awesome. I agree with Kelley when she said, its amazing how Rosa Parks started such a strong movement without even realizing it. Something that I also found interesting was the unspoken support, when people would talk to others about not taking the bus, that it is nice of them to support the boycott, and people would reply with any excuse possible on why they are not taking the bus. I also liked how the white women supported it as well, even though it was for their own agenda, but when the police started to pull them over I loved how they would respond,saying if you want to come clean my house then fine but until then I will keep driving her to and from her home. The fact that even whites were participating in the boycott really shows the impact that Rosa Parks had. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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I thought a really important part of the Montgomery bus boycotts was the fact that it was almost necessary that black women stayed quiet. I would have assumed, not reading this piece, that most participants would have been proud of being a part of the cause and I was quite surprised to find out that they were silent. I didn't think that admitting to participating could be as risky as it was. In reality women could have lost jobs or face legal fines for such a simple action. Their silence was ultimately their weapon. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
== Cynthia Griggs Fleming, “Ruby Doris Smith Robinson and Black Women’s Leadership in SNCC” ==<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Mirta Vidal Reports on the Rising Consciousness of the Chicana About Her Special Oppression, 1971. ==<br />
<br />
After reading the article in MP, I feel like the arguments Chicanas had were no different than other races. Obviously they had some fair arguments to make but issues such as female oppresion and childcare, didn't everyone have that same problem unless you were a member of the upper class? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
<br />
The reading in MP deals with the Chicanas growing awareness of their oppression. Many of the challenges they faced were similar to those of women of other races, however, they were oppressed as a “nationality, as workers, and as women,” (455). Within their own race, men had trouble dealing with their opposition to their oppression because they feared that it wouldn’t threaten their own power. Many of the things these women fought for, affected them as women (i.e. abortion, childcare, contraception, etc…), so how would this “pose a threat to their ability to rule?” (456). I think Vidal makes a good point in the end when she basically says that there needs to be equality within the race itself (i.e. between chicanas and Chicanos) before the race, in its entirety, can be seen as an equal in society. This brings up the idea or debate on how much influence intra-racial discrimination has on inter-racial discrimination. --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
<br />
== Naomi Craig's interview ==<br />
<br />
Mrs. Naomi Craig's interview really lets the reader get a feel for how life was for her and her children. There were hard times, but they dealt with them. She discussed the problems she had with finding a house and a job just because of the color of her skin. She also never agreed with the Vietnam and what it did to children and their mother's who couldn't afford to send their children to college to get out of the draft. I know my dad had a draft card # for the Vietnam war and almost had to go... they got within 10 calls of his number before the war was declared over. I would hate to know the feeling that just because you can't afford college, you HAVE to go fight that war... --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
Naomi Craig's interview, she talks about how her and her husband had a hard time buying a home, and she addressed the issue how blacks also had a hard time getting jobs. I had to read "The Orgins of the Urban Crisis" for this week in my American Landscape class and it talks about exactly what she has adressed here in her interview. You would think that realtors wouldn't care who they were selling too, as long as they were making money doing it. I also couldn't believe how difficult they made it for black people to get a job. Also the book talked about how the realtors would use the fact that whites wanted to move if one black person moved into their neighborhood to their advantage to profit more. Although it only talked about the city of Detroit this obviously happened in other places. Most neighborhoods today are still mostly one race. Do we do it on purpose or not still? How many of you have come from a mostly white or mostly black neighborhood?--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
Naomi Craig's interview was very interesting and eye opening for me. I knew about the hardships that blacks faced but at the same time I really didn't understand them. Reading her interview really showed what she had to deal with. I guess since it was more like a story or listening to someone tell stories it made it all seem much more real. I was really surprised to read about how her daughter who was 3 years younger then her son was able to finish school at the same time just because she was interested in studying. That is something so difficult to do and I would have thought it almost not possible for blacks at the time due to segregation. When she talked about Martin Luther King's assassination it made it really showed her feeling. It was a hard time for many people and you can really see how is death affected her when she said "When Martin Luther King died I felt as though the light had gone out of the world." -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
To me my favorite history to read are the personal accounts of real people, anyone can write about anything, but the emotions that come alive in a personal account is so much more. Naomi Craig's interview really fascinated me, because for years and this semester I have been learning about all the hardships blacks had to face, but I really didn't know the real extent of it all. I love that her children succeeded in their lives despite all the segregation, that her daughter who was 3 years younger then her brother graduated at the same time. I feel like this was possible because they had lived in the north but, the north wasn't that much of an easier place to live then the south. I think my favorite line was when Craig was talking about how she went out to get a job when she finished high school and she was told there was no way she was going to find a job. When she says "And here I was dressed lovely, thinking that was the right first step. And here was some dowdy, ugly woman telling me I couldn't have a job." I just started laughing because it is a response any woman would have given to the situation. I can totally see where Craig is coming from, why is this ugly woman so special that she can have a job over a pretty black girl? If you are going to base hiring people on skin color why not hire them based on their looks as well?It truly is amazing to me how these people went through so much and so many of them came out with their heads held high, it really shows how strong a people they were and are today. -- Amanda Taub</div>199.111.68.165https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_11_Questions/Comments328--Week 11 Questions/Comments2008-04-03T05:00:03Z<p>199.111.68.165: /* Vicki Ruiz, "'Star Struck': Acculturation, Adolescence, and Mexican American Women, 1920-1950" */</p>
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<div>== Debate topics or comparative questions ==<br />
Should Rosie the Riveter go home and raise a family or continue working? --Justin Mattos<br />
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Did the war truly elevate the status of women? -- Kellye<br />
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== Betty Jeanne Boggs, "Balancing Work and Family" ==<br />
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I really liked the article "Balancing Work and Family." I really loved how this family was backwards, even for the 50s-60s. The husband was still trying to finish school, the wife is working, they aren't that worried about having children. They accept it when it completely surprises them. I really like the fact that Betty Boggs worked so much and she actually liked her job, she got to choose her job, I also do like that she did try working during her first child. The fact that she at least gave it a shot was impressive to me. When she had her second child it was understandable that she wanted to stay home, also her husband by then didn't need her to be working all the time to support the family. I know there is a stereotype of families from the 50s, they are in their perfectly manicured houses and have the perfect families were dad works and mom cooks and cleans all day. But was the manicured family real, or was it created by the media? and were families like the Boggs just as "real" as the ''perfect'' manicured family?<br />
-- Amanda Taub<br />
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I also really liked the article by Betty Jeanne Boggs. It really struck me as out of the time period because of the wife working so the husband could finish school. Also the attitude of if 'one can't go and have fun, well, the other wont go either because its not fair.' I thought that the relationship she and her husband had was amazing, especially for the 1950s and 60s. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I agree with the above two posts, although this article definitely showed me that the idealistic picture of family during the 50's wasnt real, and although that was a bit jarring because i had never really thought that such a modern relationship existed back then, it was nice to see that it was possible. Also i feel that often we assume that relationships in the past were purely based on the children both currently present or expected, and that the actual relationship between two people was never prioritized, i like that this is the opposite, this couple truly seems to care for one another if they are blatantly defying the stereotypes of the day in order to make each other's dream possible. --Julie Robert<br />
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I really liked this article too. It really showed how women were able to work outside the home but still raise their kids. It showed how women were torn between work and the family. For instance Boggs, wanted to stay home with the new baby but she wanted to help her husband who wasnt in good health and she really liked her job. It surprises me that you can enjoy working in those rough conditions but I guess it was so liberating that they wanted just wanted to be there. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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I like this article too because it emphasized how hard women struggled to have a job and a family life. It's a struggle for many women today but there are many daycare options and childcare outside of the home is accepted. I can't even imagine being a working mother with such little support from society. -Kendall Haring<br />
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It is clear from Betty Jeanne Boggs’ piece that staying at home with the kids was still absolutely seen as the women’s job. The pressure she felt to provide for the baby and not burden her husband (and not expect him to help her) is ridiculous. – Cat Debelius<br />
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I found this article interesting because of the role the husband played in raising the kids. It seems to contradict everything we have read about. The mother was the one with the job while the husband was in school and raising the kids. It was also interesting to see the mother's very torn emotions about her role in this backwards family. - Christine W.<br />
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As with everyone else, I also enjoyed this article because it showed the conflict that Betty Jeanne Boggs clearly felt between her job and her family. I think that many women today still feel this pressure. It makes me wonder how much has truly changed since the 50s and 60s. --Katie Nelson<br />
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I found this article interesting as well because it is so anti-sterotypical of that time. You normally don't hear that the husband helped with the kids. I think that was extremely progressive for that time period. It was also interesting because she seemed so torn about wanting to work because she liked her job and wanting to be home for the children and have a better relationship with them.~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
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I think that in today's society Boggs would have no problem having a family as well as having a fruitful career. It seems as if she couldn't imagine remaining at work because of how she perceived her relationship with her first son. I feel like her struggle to bond with her child would not be present today. There were such high expectations after the war to be the ultimate parent and to create the "best" children for the future. Boggs had the relationships of other mothers and sons of the time period (and the ideal) to compare herself to. Today it seems as if parenting dynamics have adapted and are more like what Boggs and her husband had in the 1950's. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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== Wilma Mankiller, "Indian Relocation" - 1993 about life in the 1950s ==<br />
<br />
After all these years, the government still felt that there was an ‘Indian Problem” that needed to be resolved. The only way they believed to settle it was by removing the Indians from their reservations. Did the government think that just because they were not holding the Native Americans at gun point meant that it was not seen as another Trail of Tears? –Ashley Scutari<br />
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I honestly think that the government knew that what they were doing was wrong but at the same time they thought they were doing the Indians a favor by making life easier for them, getting them jobs, better living conditions (of course they really weren't). You have to remember at this time the government wasn't too thrilled with people beign different, they wanted everyone to be the same to fit some sort of ideal. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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I thought the most interesting thing about this reading was that it showed how powerful propaganda was and still can be. Here was a family who was by all accounts happy, the children and wife seemed satisfied. They may have lived an archaic life by other standards, but they had never known anything different. Yet the BIA convinced the husband that by moving halfway across the country he could be like the idealized middle class family on the front of a brochure. The same was true with the WWII and post-WWII propaganda we studied in class, there the government seemed to have the ability to turn (most)of the publics' desire to have women work on and off by changing the message on a poster. Sometimes playing on a person's hopes, dreams, and desire to fit in can be far more powerful than any weapon. --- Landon Davis<br />
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== Joanna Rubin, "An Unplanned Pregnancy" 1950s ==<br />
<br />
This article really made me sad because the author mentioned feeling so alone because she didn't feel that she could tell her dad about the pregnancy. I really wonder how many young women today still feel this way, since abortions are still a very heated debate in today's society. I would imagine that many young women today also feel this sense of loneliness that Joanna Rubin felt during this time in her life. - Elizabeth Frank<br />
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This article made me sad as well because she had no one to turn to other than the guy that got her pregnant, however I thought it was interesting that they went to some random place in Puerto Rico with a doctor named Pardo. Even though the boyfriend found out about this place through a friend it was no wonder she thought she might end up at some little dark room clinic that really wasn't lagit. She took a huge chance on flying out to this place that she really new nothing about. I would have been scared out of my mind too. There were places in the US that did these illegal abortions so I wonder if many other women went out of the US for abortions?--Michelle M.<br />
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Elizabeth and Michelle mentioned in their posts how alone Joanna Rubin was in her private ordeal. Abortion is not just a physical ordeal. Rubin says that she was okay with her decision in aborting a child, but this is the type of life event that she is less likely to share and will probably conceal. At the time, abortion was illegal in the states and carried a stigma that would have probably alienated her and prevented her seeking emotional support from professionals and other women. Abortion doesn't just take a fetus away, it creates a void and replaces it with guilt and shame.--LisaM<br />
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I thought it was interesting to read Joanna Rubin's account of her unplanned pregnancy. My question is if JOanna knew the risks of sleeping with her boyfriend and she didn't see a future with him then why take those huge risks sleeping with him? It's not like she was uneducated as far as the risks and unsafety of abortions. It is a type of rebellion for women? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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I also found in MP it interesting to read about Joyce Johnsons experience obtaining an illegal abortion in NYC. What really struck me was how she had to get "drinks" with the doctor to set up the abortion appointment. Also that the room where the procedure took place, everything in the room was white. White representing pure and clean with a procedure of quite the opposite. Was this situation a common trend for women at this time? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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You can tell from Joanna Rubin’s story that abortion was very difficult in the 1960s. I know that since abortions were illegal and therefore probably undocumented… are there any statistics on how many abortions were conducted during this time period? Also, I know that women that were pregnant and didn’t want to be always felt trapped, but wasn’t abortion always an option… even the “backroom” dangerous kind? – Cat Debelius<br />
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Joanna Rubin's story of her unplanned pregnancy really struck me and I spoke to the norms surrounding sexuality during this time period. I think it's interesting that in a way she tries to explain her relationship with Michael as being very intense and intellectual. I also think it's interesting that she says "I wasn't particularly promiscuous. I liked Michael as a person, but I was ready to stop seeing him except that I got pregnant." It almost seemed like she was trying to rationalize her relationship with him by saying that it was intellectual, then by saying that she was not promiscuous. --Katie Nelson<br />
<br />
== Ethel Barol Taylor, "Women Strike for Peace" ==<br />
The article "Women Strike for Peace" by Ethel Barol Taylor really hit home for me. She talks about handing out leaflets saying "Take your children off milk," and she had very good reason to do so. The nuclear fallout from the testing of the atomic bomb at Los Alamos settled over central Iowa to central Missouri, and some unoccupied parts of Wyoming. My mothers entire family is from central Missouri, and she grew up in central Iowa. The radiation from the fallout affected the grass, which the dairy cows grazed on, and the radiation got into the milk. We are now seeing the results of people who drank radiation poisoned milk in the late 1940's and the 1950's in abnormally high instances of thyroid cancer. My grandfather developed thyroid cancer. My grandmother had a gouiter. My mom at age SEVEN also had a thyroid gouiter removed. She later developed thyroid cancer (it was discovered in ~1996) - she had to have her entire thyroid removed. Many of her cousins also developed thyroid cancer. So good for the ladies of Women Strike for Peace! Thanks for trying to raise awareness! - Sarah H.<br />
<br />
The article was also interesting in that these women ware able to protest in such a lady-like manner that they were able to avoid any harsh criticism. Their handling of protests and of HUAC investigations was so impeccable that HUAC and those like them were being ridiculed. It was an interesting way to use the constraints of the time in their favor. - Sarah H.<br />
<br />
== Rachel Carson Answers her Critics - 1963 ==<br />
I found this article to be fairly strange since I always associated the controversy regarding DDT and other insecticides with the environmental issues and campaigns of the 1980's. Is that true or am I misremembering that? --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I think Rachel Carson was really ahead of her time in terms of environmentalism. It seems like in postwar America, everyone was ready to use the new technology and new chemicals without thinking about the effects it had on nature. Carson was willing to step up against what everyone believed was progress and ask Americans to take a real look at the way they were affecting the world around them. -Kendall Haring<br />
<br />
I found this article very interesting because harmful pesticides is a problem still dealt with today. I was surprised to see that she was the driving force behind getting changes made. I was also surprised to see how many people seemed to take her word over all the heads of the pesticide companies especially since it dealt with science and that was still seen as a man's field. It was interesting to see how popular her book became and how willing she was to put herself in the spotlight at a time when women were supposed to be in the home. - Christine W.<br />
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I agree with Kendall, Rachel Carson seemed to really be one step ahead of the curve when it came to environmental science. The way she defended herself and her argument blew my mind. You could tell she was well educated and that she knew what she was talking about. She really backed up her argument and made a valid case, and I feel like that's a pretty big step for women. She, in my opinion, proved that educated women deserve respect and made a case, whether she meant to or not, that educated women were a force to be reckoned with. She really caused the American population to stop and take a look around because her argument lasted a lifetime. -Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
== Louisa Randall Church - "Parents, Architects of Peace" 1946 ==<br />
The first reading in MP by Louisa Randall I thought was very interesting. It takes on more of a psychology perspective to parenting as she outlines what she believes are the major duties that parents have for their children. First of all, when talking about raising the children, Randall uses the term “parents” in the plural and discusses the equal responsibility of the man and the woman in raising the children, which shows a definite shift from the “women in the home” attitude that had prevailed previously. Also, it shows the growing responsibilities that parents have toward children. It extends the previous belief that women were responsible for raising moral children further to include “love and affection, equal rights, discipline, freedom, enrichment, cooperation, and education.” I also found it funny in the end when she suggested that “School officials, everywhere, and citizens, too, should give active support to the idea of training for parenthood…” (412). --Jessica Kilday<br />
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I also found this article interesting but what stood out to me was the reference to parents (plural) and the emphasis she seems to place on equality within the household. I'm wondering how many women during this period shared this ideal since this is also the period where women were shifting back to the world of the home and were taking on more responsibility for raising the children, which places more importance on her influence than the fathers, which is not equality at all. So I found this article interesting but am slightly confused as to how common her point of view was during this period. - Elizabeth Frank<br />
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I found this article very interesting, as it does shift way from the previous practice of having only one parent involved in the raising of children. It's very much like how my parents raised me. However, speaking to Elizabeth's inquiry, I don't believe that this was a widespread belief. I think it was an idea that was only beginning to emerge, as the 1950's saw more of a return to the "cult of domesticity" way of thinking. I know from stories from my mother that her mother was responsible for all punishment if her or my uncle acted up, and she was the one to assign chores, etc. It was the mothers who were primarily responsible for raising the children, and was not as equitable a job as Louisa Randall Church would like. - Sarah Herzog<br />
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== Farnham and Lundberg, Modem Woman: The Lost Sex (1947) ==<br />
<br />
Several of the other readings dealt with the increasing notion of women working outside the home, in addition to raising a family. As Marnia Farnham points out, the progress that has been made in terms of opportunities and technologies for women “serves less to clarify and simplify her life than to complicate it with conflict piled on conflict…” (412). She goes further to say that women are no longer making progress for feminization but have instead begun to become more masculine. Is she suggesting that these women are gradually leaving their traditional gender roles and should be classified as women only in a biological sense? In order to be equal do they both first have to be defined as “masculine?” --Jessica Kilday<br />
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I find this article interesting because I actually see a lot of parallels between this period and what some people today still believe. First, I noticed that they attack the idea of child day care systems that, according to them, leave a child unsatisfied. In today's society I know many women who feel that day care, at least for children below pre-school age, is a bad idea because it doesn't teach them the discipline that children need to learn. I found this connection to today's world very striking as I was reading this article.-Elizabeth Frank<br />
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I am not sure if a woman helped write this article, but I find it interesting that there existed a significant proportion of women activists who did not believe women should work outside of the home and the ideals of the Cult of Domesticity. It almost seems as if it is one of those cases where society's ideals have permanently lowered an individual's self-esteem. I am very tempted to conclude that it is a very similar lowering of self-esteem as that described in Brown v. Board, but I wouldn't want to get ahead of myself. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
== Pauli Murray, 1947 ==<br />
I found it interesting that the constant theme of more women than men attending college appeared in this article. I guess women have always gone to college in greater numbers than men when given the chance. How strange is that? --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I found Pauli Murray’s piece on what she calls the “Jane Crow” Laws very interesting. It really pointed out all the ways the African American women was viewed below everyone else, both in gender and race. – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
What really interested me about this piece was how Murray raised the point that her white friends said "that they suffer just as much from 'Jane Crow' as I do." I understand that women of all races were put down, especially after the war effort, so as to return to the middle class domestic ideal. But were white women really that oblivious to the fact that black women were fourth class citizens and had an even harder time? I know it sounds like a stupid question but it still blows my mind that white women never recognized how much "better off" they were than black women. --Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
== Joyce Johnson - 1955 ==<br />
The article in MP, "Nonconformist Joyce Johnson..." was very interesting. I really liked he reasoning for sleeping around or before marriage. Since you have stayed so late it didn't matter, as long as you didn't go home. So instead of going home, you find some guy to go home with. First of all, with rules like that you are asking to get pregnant. This account however, was so shady, the means of getting an abortion is insane. She had to be taken by a sketchy guy, to this horribly mean Dr. who frowns on abortions but will perform them illegally. Did all Doctors frown upon their patients when they give abortions? I feel that if you are going to risk your life (not meaning death but imprisonment) and medical license you must be pro choice. I think the sketchiest part of all is when the procedure it over with, this "escort" invites you back to fire island, its almost like he is saying, want to get pregnant again this weekend? --- Amanda Taub<br />
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That advertising executive is the creepiest person I have ever read about, seen in a movie, or met in person. Are there records of these type of abortion liasons - people who knew doctors, and who young girls knew to call to set up a meeting? I imagine this guy could make alot of money either getting paid directly by the girls or taking a kickback from the doctor, or maybe he just liked it in some weird disgusting way. I would have opted for the trip to puerto rico if i was an unmarried pregnant woman in the 1950s. -- Landon Davis<br />
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This article was almost scary to me. I couldn't imagine going thru something like this. The Doctor sounded awful- he acted like he hated what he was doing and didn't really want to do it but yet the money he made apparently made up it ok for him in end. I agree with Landon that the ad exec was the creepiest person ever - even going so far as to hit on the girl he had just taken to get an abortion. That is just insane. I felt so bad for her having to get home by herself and the doctor telling her not to contact him unless something goes wrong! How would she ever get back to him if something went wrong? I wonder how many of these "back room" abortions did go wrong, I am sure probably alot did especially if the girl was really poor and could not afford to get a good doctor.~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
<br />
== Letter from black reader to ''The Ladder'', in 1957 ==<br />
<br />
I am impressed how an African American lesbian in the 1950’s would be so open to write to this editor especially being so open with her sexuality. “The Ladder” seems like another great stepping stone for women to be heard. Were there many other magazines like this as well? –Ashley Scutari<br />
<br />
This letter was interesting to me because it showed how a middle of the road black lesbian woman felt about being publicly gay. She compared the experience to being black saying something to the affect that black people used to be told to dress and behave in a way that was socially acceptable to white people, but now she didnt flinch when she saw an black person acting differently. Now she was urging lesbians to act socially accpetable so straight people would accept them, because otherwise a "butch" stereotype would shut down the means of communication which I think she saw as the road to acceptance. -- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
== Betty Friedan, "The Problem That Has No Name" ==<br />
In this reading I believe that the "Problem That Has No Name" is some kind of depression. I say that because obviously these women are lacking something from their life. They feel unfulfilled, somethings missing. They want to be recongnized for something more than just being a house wife, mother and so on. I think too because of this expected role women are to play/be was so strong during that time that they felt they could do nothing about it, because they couldn't even really put a name to what they felt. Having a job meant a lot to most of these women. Betty Jeanne Bogg's reading just proves that she is one of many who love there job very much. She states that several times through out her reading. She loved her children and in the end was glad she did stay home with them but in the beginning she was really torn because she "really enjoyed that job." (210) Also in Vicki L. Ruiz's article I thought it was interesting how she mentions that "wages gave women a feeling of independence." (349) Even though her article is about mexican american women, I think that statement holds true for all women during that time. Having that indepence of a job and earning their own money filled the missing thing, and was or could have been the fix I think to the "Problem That Has No Name." --Michelle M.<br />
<br />
== Rickie Solinger, politics of abortion, 1950-1970 ==<br />
I actually felt a little dumb with this week's readings. There was a type of abortion that was mentioned in multiple articles, but the one I remember off the top of my head was "Women and the Politics of Hospital Abortion Committees, 1950-1970." They mentioned 'therapeutic abortions' and either I missed where they they discussed what it is or it is one those things they figure the audience knows what they were talking about. I have no idea what that kind of abortion is, I have never heard of it until this reading. --Ashley Wilkins (feeling a little dumb right now) <br />
<br />
<br />
== Vicki Ruiz, "'Star Struck': Acculturation, Adolescence, and Mexican American Women, 1920-1950" ==<br />
<br />
<br />
I found Joyce Johnson's piece on whole was very surprising. I thought she was very specific and very honest about her experiences. She mentioned details such as "..that smelled of smoke and soiled clothing..." and "the room looked like a room in which only the very poor would ever wait." I can't help but feel sorry for her in the guilt she must be left with in order to remain independent. I also noticed her ability to see a therapist and wondered how common this was at the time? I know that usually one must have a signficant amount of money for a therapist and I wondered how she afforded the treatment and not the abortion. I also wondered her age and thought it would be quite relevant to the nature of her experiences. -- Meredith Bojarski</div>199.111.68.165https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_11_Questions/Comments328--Week 11 Questions/Comments2008-04-03T04:59:14Z<p>199.111.68.165: /* Betty Jeanne Boggs, "Balancing Work and Family" */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Debate topics or comparative questions ==<br />
Should Rosie the Riveter go home and raise a family or continue working? --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Did the war truly elevate the status of women? -- Kellye<br />
<br />
== Betty Jeanne Boggs, "Balancing Work and Family" ==<br />
<br />
I really liked the article "Balancing Work and Family." I really loved how this family was backwards, even for the 50s-60s. The husband was still trying to finish school, the wife is working, they aren't that worried about having children. They accept it when it completely surprises them. I really like the fact that Betty Boggs worked so much and she actually liked her job, she got to choose her job, I also do like that she did try working during her first child. The fact that she at least gave it a shot was impressive to me. When she had her second child it was understandable that she wanted to stay home, also her husband by then didn't need her to be working all the time to support the family. I know there is a stereotype of families from the 50s, they are in their perfectly manicured houses and have the perfect families were dad works and mom cooks and cleans all day. But was the manicured family real, or was it created by the media? and were families like the Boggs just as "real" as the ''perfect'' manicured family?<br />
-- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
I also really liked the article by Betty Jeanne Boggs. It really struck me as out of the time period because of the wife working so the husband could finish school. Also the attitude of if 'one can't go and have fun, well, the other wont go either because its not fair.' I thought that the relationship she and her husband had was amazing, especially for the 1950s and 60s. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I agree with the above two posts, although this article definitely showed me that the idealistic picture of family during the 50's wasnt real, and although that was a bit jarring because i had never really thought that such a modern relationship existed back then, it was nice to see that it was possible. Also i feel that often we assume that relationships in the past were purely based on the children both currently present or expected, and that the actual relationship between two people was never prioritized, i like that this is the opposite, this couple truly seems to care for one another if they are blatantly defying the stereotypes of the day in order to make each other's dream possible. --Julie Robert<br />
<br />
I really liked this article too. It really showed how women were able to work outside the home but still raise their kids. It showed how women were torn between work and the family. For instance Boggs, wanted to stay home with the new baby but she wanted to help her husband who wasnt in good health and she really liked her job. It surprises me that you can enjoy working in those rough conditions but I guess it was so liberating that they wanted just wanted to be there. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
I like this article too because it emphasized how hard women struggled to have a job and a family life. It's a struggle for many women today but there are many daycare options and childcare outside of the home is accepted. I can't even imagine being a working mother with such little support from society. -Kendall Haring<br />
<br />
It is clear from Betty Jeanne Boggs’ piece that staying at home with the kids was still absolutely seen as the women’s job. The pressure she felt to provide for the baby and not burden her husband (and not expect him to help her) is ridiculous. – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
I found this article interesting because of the role the husband played in raising the kids. It seems to contradict everything we have read about. The mother was the one with the job while the husband was in school and raising the kids. It was also interesting to see the mother's very torn emotions about her role in this backwards family. - Christine W.<br />
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As with everyone else, I also enjoyed this article because it showed the conflict that Betty Jeanne Boggs clearly felt between her job and her family. I think that many women today still feel this pressure. It makes me wonder how much has truly changed since the 50s and 60s. --Katie Nelson<br />
<br />
I found this article interesting as well because it is so anti-sterotypical of that time. You normally don't hear that the husband helped with the kids. I think that was extremely progressive for that time period. It was also interesting because she seemed so torn about wanting to work because she liked her job and wanting to be home for the children and have a better relationship with them.~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
<br />
I think that in today's society Boggs would have no problem having a family as well as having a fruitful career. It seems as if she couldn't imagine remaining at work because of how she perceived her relationship with her first son. I feel like her struggle to bond with her child would not be present today. There were such high expectations after the war to be the ultimate parent and to create the "best" children for the future. Boggs had the relationships of other mothers and sons of the time period (and the ideal) to compare herself to. Today it seems as if parenting dynamics have adapted and are more like what Boggs and her husband had in the 1950's. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
== Wilma Mankiller, "Indian Relocation" - 1993 about life in the 1950s ==<br />
<br />
After all these years, the government still felt that there was an ‘Indian Problem” that needed to be resolved. The only way they believed to settle it was by removing the Indians from their reservations. Did the government think that just because they were not holding the Native Americans at gun point meant that it was not seen as another Trail of Tears? –Ashley Scutari<br />
<br />
I honestly think that the government knew that what they were doing was wrong but at the same time they thought they were doing the Indians a favor by making life easier for them, getting them jobs, better living conditions (of course they really weren't). You have to remember at this time the government wasn't too thrilled with people beign different, they wanted everyone to be the same to fit some sort of ideal. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
I thought the most interesting thing about this reading was that it showed how powerful propaganda was and still can be. Here was a family who was by all accounts happy, the children and wife seemed satisfied. They may have lived an archaic life by other standards, but they had never known anything different. Yet the BIA convinced the husband that by moving halfway across the country he could be like the idealized middle class family on the front of a brochure. The same was true with the WWII and post-WWII propaganda we studied in class, there the government seemed to have the ability to turn (most)of the publics' desire to have women work on and off by changing the message on a poster. Sometimes playing on a person's hopes, dreams, and desire to fit in can be far more powerful than any weapon. --- Landon Davis<br />
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== Joanna Rubin, "An Unplanned Pregnancy" 1950s ==<br />
<br />
This article really made me sad because the author mentioned feeling so alone because she didn't feel that she could tell her dad about the pregnancy. I really wonder how many young women today still feel this way, since abortions are still a very heated debate in today's society. I would imagine that many young women today also feel this sense of loneliness that Joanna Rubin felt during this time in her life. - Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
This article made me sad as well because she had no one to turn to other than the guy that got her pregnant, however I thought it was interesting that they went to some random place in Puerto Rico with a doctor named Pardo. Even though the boyfriend found out about this place through a friend it was no wonder she thought she might end up at some little dark room clinic that really wasn't lagit. She took a huge chance on flying out to this place that she really new nothing about. I would have been scared out of my mind too. There were places in the US that did these illegal abortions so I wonder if many other women went out of the US for abortions?--Michelle M.<br />
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Elizabeth and Michelle mentioned in their posts how alone Joanna Rubin was in her private ordeal. Abortion is not just a physical ordeal. Rubin says that she was okay with her decision in aborting a child, but this is the type of life event that she is less likely to share and will probably conceal. At the time, abortion was illegal in the states and carried a stigma that would have probably alienated her and prevented her seeking emotional support from professionals and other women. Abortion doesn't just take a fetus away, it creates a void and replaces it with guilt and shame.--LisaM<br />
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I thought it was interesting to read Joanna Rubin's account of her unplanned pregnancy. My question is if JOanna knew the risks of sleeping with her boyfriend and she didn't see a future with him then why take those huge risks sleeping with him? It's not like she was uneducated as far as the risks and unsafety of abortions. It is a type of rebellion for women? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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I also found in MP it interesting to read about Joyce Johnsons experience obtaining an illegal abortion in NYC. What really struck me was how she had to get "drinks" with the doctor to set up the abortion appointment. Also that the room where the procedure took place, everything in the room was white. White representing pure and clean with a procedure of quite the opposite. Was this situation a common trend for women at this time? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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You can tell from Joanna Rubin’s story that abortion was very difficult in the 1960s. I know that since abortions were illegal and therefore probably undocumented… are there any statistics on how many abortions were conducted during this time period? Also, I know that women that were pregnant and didn’t want to be always felt trapped, but wasn’t abortion always an option… even the “backroom” dangerous kind? – Cat Debelius<br />
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Joanna Rubin's story of her unplanned pregnancy really struck me and I spoke to the norms surrounding sexuality during this time period. I think it's interesting that in a way she tries to explain her relationship with Michael as being very intense and intellectual. I also think it's interesting that she says "I wasn't particularly promiscuous. I liked Michael as a person, but I was ready to stop seeing him except that I got pregnant." It almost seemed like she was trying to rationalize her relationship with him by saying that it was intellectual, then by saying that she was not promiscuous. --Katie Nelson<br />
<br />
== Ethel Barol Taylor, "Women Strike for Peace" ==<br />
The article "Women Strike for Peace" by Ethel Barol Taylor really hit home for me. She talks about handing out leaflets saying "Take your children off milk," and she had very good reason to do so. The nuclear fallout from the testing of the atomic bomb at Los Alamos settled over central Iowa to central Missouri, and some unoccupied parts of Wyoming. My mothers entire family is from central Missouri, and she grew up in central Iowa. The radiation from the fallout affected the grass, which the dairy cows grazed on, and the radiation got into the milk. We are now seeing the results of people who drank radiation poisoned milk in the late 1940's and the 1950's in abnormally high instances of thyroid cancer. My grandfather developed thyroid cancer. My grandmother had a gouiter. My mom at age SEVEN also had a thyroid gouiter removed. She later developed thyroid cancer (it was discovered in ~1996) - she had to have her entire thyroid removed. Many of her cousins also developed thyroid cancer. So good for the ladies of Women Strike for Peace! Thanks for trying to raise awareness! - Sarah H.<br />
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The article was also interesting in that these women ware able to protest in such a lady-like manner that they were able to avoid any harsh criticism. Their handling of protests and of HUAC investigations was so impeccable that HUAC and those like them were being ridiculed. It was an interesting way to use the constraints of the time in their favor. - Sarah H.<br />
<br />
== Rachel Carson Answers her Critics - 1963 ==<br />
I found this article to be fairly strange since I always associated the controversy regarding DDT and other insecticides with the environmental issues and campaigns of the 1980's. Is that true or am I misremembering that? --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I think Rachel Carson was really ahead of her time in terms of environmentalism. It seems like in postwar America, everyone was ready to use the new technology and new chemicals without thinking about the effects it had on nature. Carson was willing to step up against what everyone believed was progress and ask Americans to take a real look at the way they were affecting the world around them. -Kendall Haring<br />
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I found this article very interesting because harmful pesticides is a problem still dealt with today. I was surprised to see that she was the driving force behind getting changes made. I was also surprised to see how many people seemed to take her word over all the heads of the pesticide companies especially since it dealt with science and that was still seen as a man's field. It was interesting to see how popular her book became and how willing she was to put herself in the spotlight at a time when women were supposed to be in the home. - Christine W.<br />
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I agree with Kendall, Rachel Carson seemed to really be one step ahead of the curve when it came to environmental science. The way she defended herself and her argument blew my mind. You could tell she was well educated and that she knew what she was talking about. She really backed up her argument and made a valid case, and I feel like that's a pretty big step for women. She, in my opinion, proved that educated women deserve respect and made a case, whether she meant to or not, that educated women were a force to be reckoned with. She really caused the American population to stop and take a look around because her argument lasted a lifetime. -Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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== Louisa Randall Church - "Parents, Architects of Peace" 1946 ==<br />
The first reading in MP by Louisa Randall I thought was very interesting. It takes on more of a psychology perspective to parenting as she outlines what she believes are the major duties that parents have for their children. First of all, when talking about raising the children, Randall uses the term “parents” in the plural and discusses the equal responsibility of the man and the woman in raising the children, which shows a definite shift from the “women in the home” attitude that had prevailed previously. Also, it shows the growing responsibilities that parents have toward children. It extends the previous belief that women were responsible for raising moral children further to include “love and affection, equal rights, discipline, freedom, enrichment, cooperation, and education.” I also found it funny in the end when she suggested that “School officials, everywhere, and citizens, too, should give active support to the idea of training for parenthood…” (412). --Jessica Kilday<br />
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I also found this article interesting but what stood out to me was the reference to parents (plural) and the emphasis she seems to place on equality within the household. I'm wondering how many women during this period shared this ideal since this is also the period where women were shifting back to the world of the home and were taking on more responsibility for raising the children, which places more importance on her influence than the fathers, which is not equality at all. So I found this article interesting but am slightly confused as to how common her point of view was during this period. - Elizabeth Frank<br />
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I found this article very interesting, as it does shift way from the previous practice of having only one parent involved in the raising of children. It's very much like how my parents raised me. However, speaking to Elizabeth's inquiry, I don't believe that this was a widespread belief. I think it was an idea that was only beginning to emerge, as the 1950's saw more of a return to the "cult of domesticity" way of thinking. I know from stories from my mother that her mother was responsible for all punishment if her or my uncle acted up, and she was the one to assign chores, etc. It was the mothers who were primarily responsible for raising the children, and was not as equitable a job as Louisa Randall Church would like. - Sarah Herzog<br />
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== Farnham and Lundberg, Modem Woman: The Lost Sex (1947) ==<br />
<br />
Several of the other readings dealt with the increasing notion of women working outside the home, in addition to raising a family. As Marnia Farnham points out, the progress that has been made in terms of opportunities and technologies for women “serves less to clarify and simplify her life than to complicate it with conflict piled on conflict…” (412). She goes further to say that women are no longer making progress for feminization but have instead begun to become more masculine. Is she suggesting that these women are gradually leaving their traditional gender roles and should be classified as women only in a biological sense? In order to be equal do they both first have to be defined as “masculine?” --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
I find this article interesting because I actually see a lot of parallels between this period and what some people today still believe. First, I noticed that they attack the idea of child day care systems that, according to them, leave a child unsatisfied. In today's society I know many women who feel that day care, at least for children below pre-school age, is a bad idea because it doesn't teach them the discipline that children need to learn. I found this connection to today's world very striking as I was reading this article.-Elizabeth Frank<br />
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I am not sure if a woman helped write this article, but I find it interesting that there existed a significant proportion of women activists who did not believe women should work outside of the home and the ideals of the Cult of Domesticity. It almost seems as if it is one of those cases where society's ideals have permanently lowered an individual's self-esteem. I am very tempted to conclude that it is a very similar lowering of self-esteem as that described in Brown v. Board, but I wouldn't want to get ahead of myself. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
== Pauli Murray, 1947 ==<br />
I found it interesting that the constant theme of more women than men attending college appeared in this article. I guess women have always gone to college in greater numbers than men when given the chance. How strange is that? --Justin Mattos<br />
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I found Pauli Murray’s piece on what she calls the “Jane Crow” Laws very interesting. It really pointed out all the ways the African American women was viewed below everyone else, both in gender and race. – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
What really interested me about this piece was how Murray raised the point that her white friends said "that they suffer just as much from 'Jane Crow' as I do." I understand that women of all races were put down, especially after the war effort, so as to return to the middle class domestic ideal. But were white women really that oblivious to the fact that black women were fourth class citizens and had an even harder time? I know it sounds like a stupid question but it still blows my mind that white women never recognized how much "better off" they were than black women. --Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
== Joyce Johnson - 1955 ==<br />
The article in MP, "Nonconformist Joyce Johnson..." was very interesting. I really liked he reasoning for sleeping around or before marriage. Since you have stayed so late it didn't matter, as long as you didn't go home. So instead of going home, you find some guy to go home with. First of all, with rules like that you are asking to get pregnant. This account however, was so shady, the means of getting an abortion is insane. She had to be taken by a sketchy guy, to this horribly mean Dr. who frowns on abortions but will perform them illegally. Did all Doctors frown upon their patients when they give abortions? I feel that if you are going to risk your life (not meaning death but imprisonment) and medical license you must be pro choice. I think the sketchiest part of all is when the procedure it over with, this "escort" invites you back to fire island, its almost like he is saying, want to get pregnant again this weekend? --- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
That advertising executive is the creepiest person I have ever read about, seen in a movie, or met in person. Are there records of these type of abortion liasons - people who knew doctors, and who young girls knew to call to set up a meeting? I imagine this guy could make alot of money either getting paid directly by the girls or taking a kickback from the doctor, or maybe he just liked it in some weird disgusting way. I would have opted for the trip to puerto rico if i was an unmarried pregnant woman in the 1950s. -- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
This article was almost scary to me. I couldn't imagine going thru something like this. The Doctor sounded awful- he acted like he hated what he was doing and didn't really want to do it but yet the money he made apparently made up it ok for him in end. I agree with Landon that the ad exec was the creepiest person ever - even going so far as to hit on the girl he had just taken to get an abortion. That is just insane. I felt so bad for her having to get home by herself and the doctor telling her not to contact him unless something goes wrong! How would she ever get back to him if something went wrong? I wonder how many of these "back room" abortions did go wrong, I am sure probably alot did especially if the girl was really poor and could not afford to get a good doctor.~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
<br />
== Letter from black reader to ''The Ladder'', in 1957 ==<br />
<br />
I am impressed how an African American lesbian in the 1950’s would be so open to write to this editor especially being so open with her sexuality. “The Ladder” seems like another great stepping stone for women to be heard. Were there many other magazines like this as well? –Ashley Scutari<br />
<br />
This letter was interesting to me because it showed how a middle of the road black lesbian woman felt about being publicly gay. She compared the experience to being black saying something to the affect that black people used to be told to dress and behave in a way that was socially acceptable to white people, but now she didnt flinch when she saw an black person acting differently. Now she was urging lesbians to act socially accpetable so straight people would accept them, because otherwise a "butch" stereotype would shut down the means of communication which I think she saw as the road to acceptance. -- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
== Betty Friedan, "The Problem That Has No Name" ==<br />
In this reading I believe that the "Problem That Has No Name" is some kind of depression. I say that because obviously these women are lacking something from their life. They feel unfulfilled, somethings missing. They want to be recongnized for something more than just being a house wife, mother and so on. I think too because of this expected role women are to play/be was so strong during that time that they felt they could do nothing about it, because they couldn't even really put a name to what they felt. Having a job meant a lot to most of these women. Betty Jeanne Bogg's reading just proves that she is one of many who love there job very much. She states that several times through out her reading. She loved her children and in the end was glad she did stay home with them but in the beginning she was really torn because she "really enjoyed that job." (210) Also in Vicki L. Ruiz's article I thought it was interesting how she mentions that "wages gave women a feeling of independence." (349) Even though her article is about mexican american women, I think that statement holds true for all women during that time. Having that indepence of a job and earning their own money filled the missing thing, and was or could have been the fix I think to the "Problem That Has No Name." --Michelle M.<br />
<br />
== Rickie Solinger, politics of abortion, 1950-1970 ==<br />
I actually felt a little dumb with this week's readings. There was a type of abortion that was mentioned in multiple articles, but the one I remember off the top of my head was "Women and the Politics of Hospital Abortion Committees, 1950-1970." They mentioned 'therapeutic abortions' and either I missed where they they discussed what it is or it is one those things they figure the audience knows what they were talking about. I have no idea what that kind of abortion is, I have never heard of it until this reading. --Ashley Wilkins (feeling a little dumb right now) <br />
<br />
<br />
== Vicki Ruiz, "'Star Struck': Acculturation, Adolescence, and Mexican American Women, 1920-1950" ==<br />
<br />
I found Joyce Johnson's piece on whole was very surprisin. I thought she was very specific and very honest about her experiences. She mentioned details such as "..that smelled of smoke and soiled clothing..." and "the room looked like a room in which only the very poor would ever wait." I can't help but feel sorry for her in the guilt she must be left with in order to remain independent. I also noticed her ability to see a therapist and wondered how common this was at the time? I know that usually one must have a signficant amount of money for a therapist and I wondered how she afforded the treatment and not the abortion. I also wondered her age and thought it would be quite relevant to the nature of her experiences. -- Meredith Bojarski</div>199.111.68.165https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_11_Questions/Comments328--Week 11 Questions/Comments2008-04-03T04:48:00Z<p>199.111.68.165: </p>
<hr />
<div>== Debate topics or comparative questions ==<br />
Should Rosie the Riveter go home and raise a family or continue working? --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
Did the war truly elevate the status of women? -- Kellye<br />
<br />
== Betty Jeanne Boggs, "Balancing Work and Family" ==<br />
<br />
I really liked the article "Balancing Work and Family." I really loved how this family was backwards, even for the 50s-60s. The husband was still trying to finish school, the wife is working, they aren't that worried about having children. They accept it when it completely surprises them. I really like the fact that Betty Boggs worked so much and she actually liked her job, she got to choose her job, I also do like that she did try working during her first child. The fact that she at least gave it a shot was impressive to me. When she had her second child it was understandable that she wanted to stay home, also her husband by then didn't need her to be working all the time to support the family. I know there is a stereotype of families from the 50s, they are in their perfectly manicured houses and have the perfect families were dad works and mom cooks and cleans all day. But was the manicured family real, or was it created by the media? and were families like the Boggs just as "real" as the ''perfect'' manicured family?<br />
-- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
I also really liked the article by Betty Jeanne Boggs. It really struck me as out of the time period because of the wife working so the husband could finish school. Also the attitude of if 'one can't go and have fun, well, the other wont go either because its not fair.' I thought that the relationship she and her husband had was amazing, especially for the 1950s and 60s. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I agree with the above two posts, although this article definitely showed me that the idealistic picture of family during the 50's wasnt real, and although that was a bit jarring because i had never really thought that such a modern relationship existed back then, it was nice to see that it was possible. Also i feel that often we assume that relationships in the past were purely based on the children both currently present or expected, and that the actual relationship between two people was never prioritized, i like that this is the opposite, this couple truly seems to care for one another if they are blatantly defying the stereotypes of the day in order to make each other's dream possible. --Julie Robert<br />
<br />
I really liked this article too. It really showed how women were able to work outside the home but still raise their kids. It showed how women were torn between work and the family. For instance Boggs, wanted to stay home with the new baby but she wanted to help her husband who wasnt in good health and she really liked her job. It surprises me that you can enjoy working in those rough conditions but I guess it was so liberating that they wanted just wanted to be there. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
I like this article too because it emphasized how hard women struggled to have a job and a family life. It's a struggle for many women today but there are many daycare options and childcare outside of the home is accepted. I can't even imagine being a working mother with such little support from society. -Kendall Haring<br />
<br />
It is clear from Betty Jeanne Boggs’ piece that staying at home with the kids was still absolutely seen as the women’s job. The pressure she felt to provide for the baby and not burden her husband (and not expect him to help her) is ridiculous. – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
I found this article interesting because of the role the husband played in raising the kids. It seems to contradict everything we have read about. The mother was the one with the job while the husband was in school and raising the kids. It was also interesting to see the mother's very torn emotions about her role in this backwards family. - Christine W.<br />
<br />
As with everyone else, I also enjoyed this article because it showed the conflict that Betty Jeanne Boggs clearly felt between her job and her family. I think that many women today still feel this pressure. It makes me wonder how much has truly changed since the 50s and 60s. --Katie Nelson<br />
<br />
I found this article interesting as well because it is so anti-sterotypical of that time. You normally don't hear that the husband helped with the kids. I think that was extremely progressive for that time period. It was also interesting because she seemed so torn about wanting to work because she liked her job and wanting to be home for the children and have a better relationship with them.~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
<br />
== Wilma Mankiller, "Indian Relocation" - 1993 about life in the 1950s ==<br />
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After all these years, the government still felt that there was an ‘Indian Problem” that needed to be resolved. The only way they believed to settle it was by removing the Indians from their reservations. Did the government think that just because they were not holding the Native Americans at gun point meant that it was not seen as another Trail of Tears? –Ashley Scutari<br />
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I honestly think that the government knew that what they were doing was wrong but at the same time they thought they were doing the Indians a favor by making life easier for them, getting them jobs, better living conditions (of course they really weren't). You have to remember at this time the government wasn't too thrilled with people beign different, they wanted everyone to be the same to fit some sort of ideal. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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I thought the most interesting thing about this reading was that it showed how powerful propaganda was and still can be. Here was a family who was by all accounts happy, the children and wife seemed satisfied. They may have lived an archaic life by other standards, but they had never known anything different. Yet the BIA convinced the husband that by moving halfway across the country he could be like the idealized middle class family on the front of a brochure. The same was true with the WWII and post-WWII propaganda we studied in class, there the government seemed to have the ability to turn (most)of the publics' desire to have women work on and off by changing the message on a poster. Sometimes playing on a person's hopes, dreams, and desire to fit in can be far more powerful than any weapon. --- Landon Davis<br />
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== Joanna Rubin, "An Unplanned Pregnancy" 1950s ==<br />
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This article really made me sad because the author mentioned feeling so alone because she didn't feel that she could tell her dad about the pregnancy. I really wonder how many young women today still feel this way, since abortions are still a very heated debate in today's society. I would imagine that many young women today also feel this sense of loneliness that Joanna Rubin felt during this time in her life. - Elizabeth Frank<br />
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This article made me sad as well because she had no one to turn to other than the guy that got her pregnant, however I thought it was interesting that they went to some random place in Puerto Rico with a doctor named Pardo. Even though the boyfriend found out about this place through a friend it was no wonder she thought she might end up at some little dark room clinic that really wasn't lagit. She took a huge chance on flying out to this place that she really new nothing about. I would have been scared out of my mind too. There were places in the US that did these illegal abortions so I wonder if many other women went out of the US for abortions?--Michelle M.<br />
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Elizabeth and Michelle mentioned in their posts how alone Joanna Rubin was in her private ordeal. Abortion is not just a physical ordeal. Rubin says that she was okay with her decision in aborting a child, but this is the type of life event that she is less likely to share and will probably conceal. At the time, abortion was illegal in the states and carried a stigma that would have probably alienated her and prevented her seeking emotional support from professionals and other women. Abortion doesn't just take a fetus away, it creates a void and replaces it with guilt and shame.--LisaM<br />
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I thought it was interesting to read Joanna Rubin's account of her unplanned pregnancy. My question is if JOanna knew the risks of sleeping with her boyfriend and she didn't see a future with him then why take those huge risks sleeping with him? It's not like she was uneducated as far as the risks and unsafety of abortions. It is a type of rebellion for women? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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I also found in MP it interesting to read about Joyce Johnsons experience obtaining an illegal abortion in NYC. What really struck me was how she had to get "drinks" with the doctor to set up the abortion appointment. Also that the room where the procedure took place, everything in the room was white. White representing pure and clean with a procedure of quite the opposite. Was this situation a common trend for women at this time? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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You can tell from Joanna Rubin’s story that abortion was very difficult in the 1960s. I know that since abortions were illegal and therefore probably undocumented… are there any statistics on how many abortions were conducted during this time period? Also, I know that women that were pregnant and didn’t want to be always felt trapped, but wasn’t abortion always an option… even the “backroom” dangerous kind? – Cat Debelius<br />
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Joanna Rubin's story of her unplanned pregnancy really struck me and I spoke to the norms surrounding sexuality during this time period. I think it's interesting that in a way she tries to explain her relationship with Michael as being very intense and intellectual. I also think it's interesting that she says "I wasn't particularly promiscuous. I liked Michael as a person, but I was ready to stop seeing him except that I got pregnant." It almost seemed like she was trying to rationalize her relationship with him by saying that it was intellectual, then by saying that she was not promiscuous. --Katie Nelson<br />
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== Ethel Barol Taylor, "Women Strike for Peace" ==<br />
The article "Women Strike for Peace" by Ethel Barol Taylor really hit home for me. She talks about handing out leaflets saying "Take your children off milk," and she had very good reason to do so. The nuclear fallout from the testing of the atomic bomb at Los Alamos settled over central Iowa to central Missouri, and some unoccupied parts of Wyoming. My mothers entire family is from central Missouri, and she grew up in central Iowa. The radiation from the fallout affected the grass, which the dairy cows grazed on, and the radiation got into the milk. We are now seeing the results of people who drank radiation poisoned milk in the late 1940's and the 1950's in abnormally high instances of thyroid cancer. My grandfather developed thyroid cancer. My grandmother had a gouiter. My mom at age SEVEN also had a thyroid gouiter removed. She later developed thyroid cancer (it was discovered in ~1996) - she had to have her entire thyroid removed. Many of her cousins also developed thyroid cancer. So good for the ladies of Women Strike for Peace! Thanks for trying to raise awareness! - Sarah H.<br />
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The article was also interesting in that these women ware able to protest in such a lady-like manner that they were able to avoid any harsh criticism. Their handling of protests and of HUAC investigations was so impeccable that HUAC and those like them were being ridiculed. It was an interesting way to use the constraints of the time in their favor. - Sarah H.<br />
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== Rachel Carson Answers her Critics - 1963 ==<br />
I found this article to be fairly strange since I always associated the controversy regarding DDT and other insecticides with the environmental issues and campaigns of the 1980's. Is that true or am I misremembering that? --Justin Mattos<br />
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I think Rachel Carson was really ahead of her time in terms of environmentalism. It seems like in postwar America, everyone was ready to use the new technology and new chemicals without thinking about the effects it had on nature. Carson was willing to step up against what everyone believed was progress and ask Americans to take a real look at the way they were affecting the world around them. -Kendall Haring<br />
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I found this article very interesting because harmful pesticides is a problem still dealt with today. I was surprised to see that she was the driving force behind getting changes made. I was also surprised to see how many people seemed to take her word over all the heads of the pesticide companies especially since it dealt with science and that was still seen as a man's field. It was interesting to see how popular her book became and how willing she was to put herself in the spotlight at a time when women were supposed to be in the home. - Christine W.<br />
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I agree with Kendall, Rachel Carson seemed to really be one step ahead of the curve when it came to environmental science. The way she defended herself and her argument blew my mind. You could tell she was well educated and that she knew what she was talking about. She really backed up her argument and made a valid case, and I feel like that's a pretty big step for women. She, in my opinion, proved that educated women deserve respect and made a case, whether she meant to or not, that educated women were a force to be reckoned with. She really caused the American population to stop and take a look around because her argument lasted a lifetime. -Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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== Louisa Randall Church - "Parents, Architects of Peace" 1946 ==<br />
The first reading in MP by Louisa Randall I thought was very interesting. It takes on more of a psychology perspective to parenting as she outlines what she believes are the major duties that parents have for their children. First of all, when talking about raising the children, Randall uses the term “parents” in the plural and discusses the equal responsibility of the man and the woman in raising the children, which shows a definite shift from the “women in the home” attitude that had prevailed previously. Also, it shows the growing responsibilities that parents have toward children. It extends the previous belief that women were responsible for raising moral children further to include “love and affection, equal rights, discipline, freedom, enrichment, cooperation, and education.” I also found it funny in the end when she suggested that “School officials, everywhere, and citizens, too, should give active support to the idea of training for parenthood…” (412). --Jessica Kilday<br />
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I also found this article interesting but what stood out to me was the reference to parents (plural) and the emphasis she seems to place on equality within the household. I'm wondering how many women during this period shared this ideal since this is also the period where women were shifting back to the world of the home and were taking on more responsibility for raising the children, which places more importance on her influence than the fathers, which is not equality at all. So I found this article interesting but am slightly confused as to how common her point of view was during this period. - Elizabeth Frank<br />
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I found this article very interesting, as it does shift way from the previous practice of having only one parent involved in the raising of children. It's very much like how my parents raised me. However, speaking to Elizabeth's inquiry, I don't believe that this was a widespread belief. I think it was an idea that was only beginning to emerge, as the 1950's saw more of a return to the "cult of domesticity" way of thinking. I know from stories from my mother that her mother was responsible for all punishment if her or my uncle acted up, and she was the one to assign chores, etc. It was the mothers who were primarily responsible for raising the children, and was not as equitable a job as Louisa Randall Church would like. - Sarah Herzog<br />
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== Farnham and Lundberg, Modem Woman: The Lost Sex (1947) ==<br />
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Several of the other readings dealt with the increasing notion of women working outside the home, in addition to raising a family. As Marnia Farnham points out, the progress that has been made in terms of opportunities and technologies for women “serves less to clarify and simplify her life than to complicate it with conflict piled on conflict…” (412). She goes further to say that women are no longer making progress for feminization but have instead begun to become more masculine. Is she suggesting that these women are gradually leaving their traditional gender roles and should be classified as women only in a biological sense? In order to be equal do they both first have to be defined as “masculine?” --Jessica Kilday<br />
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I find this article interesting because I actually see a lot of parallels between this period and what some people today still believe. First, I noticed that they attack the idea of child day care systems that, according to them, leave a child unsatisfied. In today's society I know many women who feel that day care, at least for children below pre-school age, is a bad idea because it doesn't teach them the discipline that children need to learn. I found this connection to today's world very striking as I was reading this article.-Elizabeth Frank<br />
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I am not sure if a woman helped write this article, but I find it interesting that there existed a significant proportion of women activists who did not believe women should work outside of the home and the ideals of the Cult of Domesticity. It almost seems as if it is one of those cases where society's ideals have permanently lowered an individual's self-esteem. I am very tempted to conclude that it is a very similar lowering of self-esteem as that described in Brown v. Board, but I wouldn't want to get ahead of myself. --Justin Mattos<br />
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== Pauli Murray, 1947 ==<br />
I found it interesting that the constant theme of more women than men attending college appeared in this article. I guess women have always gone to college in greater numbers than men when given the chance. How strange is that? --Justin Mattos<br />
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I found Pauli Murray’s piece on what she calls the “Jane Crow” Laws very interesting. It really pointed out all the ways the African American women was viewed below everyone else, both in gender and race. – Cat Debelius<br />
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What really interested me about this piece was how Murray raised the point that her white friends said "that they suffer just as much from 'Jane Crow' as I do." I understand that women of all races were put down, especially after the war effort, so as to return to the middle class domestic ideal. But were white women really that oblivious to the fact that black women were fourth class citizens and had an even harder time? I know it sounds like a stupid question but it still blows my mind that white women never recognized how much "better off" they were than black women. --Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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== Joyce Johnson - 1955 ==<br />
The article in MP, "Nonconformist Joyce Johnson..." was very interesting. I really liked he reasoning for sleeping around or before marriage. Since you have stayed so late it didn't matter, as long as you didn't go home. So instead of going home, you find some guy to go home with. First of all, with rules like that you are asking to get pregnant. This account however, was so shady, the means of getting an abortion is insane. She had to be taken by a sketchy guy, to this horribly mean Dr. who frowns on abortions but will perform them illegally. Did all Doctors frown upon their patients when they give abortions? I feel that if you are going to risk your life (not meaning death but imprisonment) and medical license you must be pro choice. I think the sketchiest part of all is when the procedure it over with, this "escort" invites you back to fire island, its almost like he is saying, want to get pregnant again this weekend? --- Amanda Taub<br />
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That advertising executive is the creepiest person I have ever read about, seen in a movie, or met in person. Are there records of these type of abortion liasons - people who knew doctors, and who young girls knew to call to set up a meeting? I imagine this guy could make alot of money either getting paid directly by the girls or taking a kickback from the doctor, or maybe he just liked it in some weird disgusting way. I would have opted for the trip to puerto rico if i was an unmarried pregnant woman in the 1950s. -- Landon Davis<br />
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This article was almost scary to me. I couldn't imagine going thru something like this. The Doctor sounded awful- he acted like he hated what he was doing and didn't really want to do it but yet the money he made apparently made up it ok for him in end. I agree with Landon that the ad exec was the creepiest person ever - even going so far as to hit on the girl he had just taken to get an abortion. That is just insane. I felt so bad for her having to get home by herself and the doctor telling her not to contact him unless something goes wrong! How would she ever get back to him if something went wrong? I wonder how many of these "back room" abortions did go wrong, I am sure probably alot did especially if the girl was really poor and could not afford to get a good doctor.~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
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== Letter from black reader to ''The Ladder'', in 1957 ==<br />
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I am impressed how an African American lesbian in the 1950’s would be so open to write to this editor especially being so open with her sexuality. “The Ladder” seems like another great stepping stone for women to be heard. Were there many other magazines like this as well? –Ashley Scutari<br />
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This letter was interesting to me because it showed how a middle of the road black lesbian woman felt about being publicly gay. She compared the experience to being black saying something to the affect that black people used to be told to dress and behave in a way that was socially acceptable to white people, but now she didnt flinch when she saw an black person acting differently. Now she was urging lesbians to act socially accpetable so straight people would accept them, because otherwise a "butch" stereotype would shut down the means of communication which I think she saw as the road to acceptance. -- Landon Davis<br />
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== Betty Friedan, "The Problem That Has No Name" ==<br />
In this reading I believe that the "Problem That Has No Name" is some kind of depression. I say that because obviously these women are lacking something from their life. They feel unfulfilled, somethings missing. They want to be recongnized for something more than just being a house wife, mother and so on. I think too because of this expected role women are to play/be was so strong during that time that they felt they could do nothing about it, because they couldn't even really put a name to what they felt. Having a job meant a lot to most of these women. Betty Jeanne Bogg's reading just proves that she is one of many who love there job very much. She states that several times through out her reading. She loved her children and in the end was glad she did stay home with them but in the beginning she was really torn because she "really enjoyed that job." (210) Also in Vicki L. Ruiz's article I thought it was interesting how she mentions that "wages gave women a feeling of independence." (349) Even though her article is about mexican american women, I think that statement holds true for all women during that time. Having that indepence of a job and earning their own money filled the missing thing, and was or could have been the fix I think to the "Problem That Has No Name." --Michelle M.<br />
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== Rickie Solinger, politics of abortion, 1950-1970 ==<br />
I actually felt a little dumb with this week's readings. There was a type of abortion that was mentioned in multiple articles, but the one I remember off the top of my head was "Women and the Politics of Hospital Abortion Committees, 1950-1970." They mentioned 'therapeutic abortions' and either I missed where they they discussed what it is or it is one those things they figure the audience knows what they were talking about. I have no idea what that kind of abortion is, I have never heard of it until this reading. --Ashley Wilkins (feeling a little dumb right now) <br />
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== Vicki Ruiz, "'Star Struck': Acculturation, Adolescence, and Mexican American Women, 1920-1950" ==<br />
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I found Joyce Johnson's piece on whole was very surprisin. I thought she was very specific and very honest about her experiences. She mentioned details such as "..that smelled of smoke and soiled clothing..." and "the room looked like a room in which only the very poor would ever wait." I can't help but feel sorry for her in the guilt she must be left with in order to remain independent. I also noticed her ability to see a therapist and wondered how common this was at the time? I know that usually one must have a signficant amount of money for a therapist and I wondered how she afforded the treatment and not the abortion. I also wondered her age and thought it would be quite relevant to the nature of her experiences. -- Meredith Bojarski</div>199.111.68.165https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_10_Questions/Comments328--Week 10 Questions/Comments2008-03-27T03:18:59Z<p>199.111.68.165: /* Photograph collections at Library of Congress */</p>
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<div>== Overarching questions ==<br />
I noticed in the movie in class and in the pictures, that the women were wearing pants. I think it is mentioned in a caption on page 179 in MAW, and several other times throughout the reading. This is quite a change from the ridiculous bicyling outfits we studied earlier. Was this a case of desperate times call for desperate measures or was it more acceptable during this time period for women to dress comfortably and efficiently at work/home while doing work? ---Landon Davis<br />
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One thing i noticed throughout the MAW reading was a lack of overt patriotism. The oral history "Rosie the Riveter" by Hill focuses solely on the monetary aspects she gains by working. In "Women in the Armed Forces" the letters written by Stagemen only talk of how exciting it is, and allows her to stroke her ego as she talks about getting out of the plane and surprising all the men. I am not saying what they were doing was not patriotic because it was. But it does not sound like patriotism was the first reason alot of these women chose to work. Again in MP Bethune urges FDR to let African American women work. Bethune uses the term "united patriotism" but it seems more like a means to an end (equality) rather than the end in itself. Yerger expresses my skepticism on page 373 saying something like "women use the patriotic cause of their work as a front for the financial cause." ---- Landon Davis<br />
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== Debate Topics ==<br />
Debate topic: did the war economically elevate families during its duration or impoverish them? -- Justin Mattos<br />
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Debate Topic: In the preview to the Rosie the Riveter Articles in MAW, some historians argue that World War II was not a huge advance or watershed moment for women, because social and cultural expectations (women would go back into the home after the war, they were "temporary help") did not change significantly. Do you agree or disagree? <br />
Phil N.<br />
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== Fanny Christina Hill, “Rosie the Riveter” ==<br />
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I really enjoyed reading this article. It was interesting how they went to the school to train and recruit women for jobs. I found it interesting how these women went through several checks upon entering the building to work each day. I can understand the ID badge checks but why would they want to check their lunch? -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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I also found this article interesting especially because Fanny Hill talks about if she didn't like the job, she left it, and she wouldn't put up with a job that she didn't like. I really enjoyed reading that about her because I think that above all else show what kind of woman she was, a strong woman who knew what she wanted. Although, I was also confused as to why they would check their lunches, did they check them on the way out as well? Was it a fear of spying that made them do that?- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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In this article, she talks about the hiring process and how there were so many more women than men. She says "Most of the men was gone, and they weren't hiring too many men unless they had a good excuse." This seems like the reverse of the pattern during the Depression. During that time, women were not hired unless they had serious economic need. Now that it is wartime, it seems as though the encouragement is for men to fight in the war, so they will not be hired unless they have an excuse to not go into war. --Katie Nelson<br />
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Great article. Leading up to World War II, women of color were arguably the most discriminated against people because of race and gender. Yet this woman found opportunity, and an overall positive experience from the War. Love the quote at the end about "Hitler getting them out of the white folks' kitchens." Sad, but definitely some grains of truth to be found in that statement. Phil N.<br />
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== Marion Stegeman, “Women in the Armed Forces” ==<br />
Marion Stegeman's letters in "Women in the Armed Forces" are interesting when she talks about the time she landed at Ballinger Air Field in order to get her bearings. Didn't the Squn. Commander have anything more pressing to do? It all seems a little strange to me considering the fact that we are now living in the middle of a gas crisis. --Justin Mattos<br />
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At the end of Marion Stegman's letters she expresses her concern to her mother about her "love" Ned and how she wants to marry him but also how she will work indefinitely. During this time when the number of women working rapidly increased, were long distance relationships even possible? Or were couples forced to go their own way for survival purposes and hope to reconnect safely at a later time? --- Rose Feguson<br />
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Marion Stegeman’s letters to her mother about being a WASP really highlight both the excitement and dangers of being in the AirForce. I am sure Marion’s mother worried about her, and I would like to have read her responses… but I was wondering if the mother ever read the letters and regretted never having those types of opportunities in her lifetime? – Cat Debelius<br />
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I LOVED Marion's letters! The way she changed her signature to sum up the mood of the letter and just the overall love she seemed to have for being a WASP was amazing. She seems to be a perfect example of why women wanted to get involved with the military in some fashion -- they were doing the jobs men used to do and were getting excellent credit for their accomplishments and being commended for their attitudes and hard work as women in the military. I think the letter about some of her friends being shot down and her other friend breaking down and leaving are both important points as well, though. Both of those reinforce the fact that these jobs weren't meant to be romanticized. They may have been women doing these jobs, but they were just as dangerous and women did die like men would have. Just because it was a woman doing the job did not mean that they were safe from harm. But my favorite letter had to be the one where she was blown off course and had to land on a different base. The statement, "The Army cadets and instructors nearly fell out of their plane when they saw a ''girl'' taxiing by in a B.T.!" I think is a perfect summation of some of how impressive some of these women truly were. Rosie the Riveter should be proud. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I also really enjoyed Marion Stegeman's letters in MAW. I particularly enjoyed the last letter when she discusses her relationship with Ned and also her decisions to be a WASP. I love the line "I can do what I'm told gracefully now only because -- underneath it all-- I know i don't have to." I think that this highlights the role of choice and freedom in the wartime effort. --Katie Nelson<br />
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I really Loved Marion Stegeman's letters. Especially since I had done my interview last week with my grandmother and I found out that she was part of the armed forces, not during WWII but after. But its cool to read these letters and know that a person in your family was part of it. I enjoyed reading the letters because they were full of so much emotion. There is such a difference between reading a male soldiers letters and a womans. The women show excitement and fear and sadness, they are great examples to know what these women were feeling at the time. I agree with Kelly, just her signature or her Dear Mother, or Mom, just showed what mood she was in. It also was surprising to me how accepting the men were with Stegeman and how much respect they gave her because of the talent she had. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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I also thought Marion Stegeman's letters were really fun to read. It was interesting how light-hearted and fun the letters were about flying the airplanes, as though it was no big deal that Marion was flying them when her mother could have never even dreamed of having the opportunity. These letters were great in highlighting how much women's roles progressed. --Kendall Haring<br />
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Enjoyed the letters here as well. Despite the fact that at the end, she didn't have the best choice in the world, to be a puppet in the Army chained to a typewriter, the fact that she had a choice to do that, marry her boyfriend, or perhaps do something else displays how significantly the world of opportunity seemed to open up for women during the War. - Phil N.<br />
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== Hariette Arnow, “Wartime Migration” – ==<br />
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Harriette Arnow’s excerpt on wartime migration discusses the confusion many women felt moving during WWII. It is clear from this article that wartime for women definitely wasn’t all opportunity and smiles, women also struggled to adapt and lived lives they probably never expected to. – Cat Debelius<br />
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This is one of those pieces that exhibits the silent burden of the woman. Gertie will not realize her dream of owning a farm because her dream is shadowed by Clovis's amibition to live in the big city and earn a higher wage. The ability to remain in Kentucky is probably not an option; she is burdened with the inability to sufficiently support her family, and she carries the guilt of a mother. "In was in truth like her mother said: the children had a right to live with their father." She is in charge of putting a meal together that is supposed to please her husband, she waits on the family, and worries about money. Her husband's attitude seems irresponsible and insensitive to the situation he has placed his family. They can't afford meat on the table, but he owns a car. He puts his head down on the pillow and falls asleep while Gertie remains awake. Gertie is trapped in a world that is dictated to her.--LisaM<br />
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== Monica Sone, “Japanese Relocation” – ==<br />
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I really enjoyed reading this one because it actually suprised me. I expected it to be a far more depressing story and while it was very sad that these families had to deal with this I also felt like it was not nearly as sad as it could have been. I found Monica Sone's mother inspiring because she seemed to look for the good in everything. Although the tent/cabin/apartment wasn't well built, she was happy that there were dandelions, because it brought happiness into the room. As well as how she reacted to the latrine being close, she didn't say oh this is gonna smell she said oh look! we won't have to walk a long ways. I found that aspect of the story very very inspiring. - Elizabeth Frank<br />
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I agree with Elizabeth. When I began reading the introduction for this account and the autobiography itself, I was prepared for something much more depressing. Not to say this wasn't at all upsetting or hard to read, it's just that having the mother in the story and reading about how lighthearted she seemed to be made it seem like she made the stay more bearable. You could definitely see tensions between first generation immigrants and families that had been in the states longer because the older the men and women were, the more disgruntled they seemed to be. When Monica discussed her meal at the dining hall, the description of the Issei man she was next to compared to the description of the messy little girl next to her made that tension apparent. The last paragraph really got to me, though, when she brought up the wire fence. "What was I doing behind a fence like a criminal?" It wasn't fair the way these people were treated and I'm just grateful Monica was lucky enough to leave and go off to school. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I feel bad for how Monica Sone feels with not knowing where she belongs. She is not considered a U.S. citizen anymore nor is she a citizen from Japan such as her mother and father. Sone feels more like a criminal. She and her family have followed all the American government rules such as paying taxes and are still discriminated against because of her Japanese ancestry. –Ashley Scutari<br />
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I thought this part of the autobiography was both inspiring and moving and did a lot to emphasize the feeling of entering a Japanese internment camp. I liked that the family tried to make the best of it at the camp, though they had no idea what they were supposed to do. There was definitely a feeling of total bewilderment at being taken to some remote area and told to live in an "oversized chicken house." The final part, where Monica discusses her confusion, was the part that showed how confused the Japanese were. "I remembered the wire fence encircling us, and a knot of anger tightened in my breast. What was I doing behind a fence like a criminal? If there were accusations to be made, why hadn't I been given a fair trial?" She expresses how much anger and confusion these people felt as their own country put them in a prison. --Kendall Haring<br />
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An interesting diary. I would love to have access to more of Monica's diary. Good 485 topic here for somebody. The Japanese Internment during the Second World War is one of the most shameful government policies of the 20th Century. The scars of many Japanese-Americans probably never healed. Has the government ever officially apologized for the internment? - Phil N.<br />
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== Ruth Marshak, “Women of Wartime Los Alamos” ==<br />
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The contrast between the concluding sentence of Ruth Marshak's "Women of Wartime Los Alamos" and the rest of the reading is interesting. She describes life as being so dreary and containing so many hardships and then ends by saying it was a great experience. Is that due to the fact that certain portions of her account were left out by the editors of the book in which her account is located? --Justin Mattos<br />
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I had the same question that Justin remarks on above. She started off with describing the place as this horrible entity, but ends it with Los Alamos being an educational experience and that they'll never feel that connected to a town again. Are there parts left out? or does she write this article in this way so that she could throw the bit of twist at the end? -- Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I thought it was interesting to read "Women of Wartime Los Alamos" by Ruth Marshak, because it showed a less common war time experience. It sounds like the woman who was describing her experience in this selection didn’t have a family with children, were there other families that moved there with children as well. If so, were these communities complete with some kind of education system as well? She describes the social aspects but not much further. What were the women’s roles in Los Alamos if they didn’t have children and while the husbands were working in the lab? --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
To me at least, my first impression of her recollections are that they seem like those of a spoiled and indulged child. Anyone else get the same vibe? - Phil N.<br />
<br />
== Valerie Matsumoto, “Japanese American Women during WWII” ==<br />
Matsumoto discusses “Japanese American Women during World War II” in Unequal Sisters. Part of it deals with the resettlement of some of the women from the Japanese internment camps, most of them being younger women attending college. Today, people tend to associate college educated people, and students of college age, with more liberal ideals. Was that true during this time as well? Was it easier for younger women of Japanese decent to be accepted in a college or university setting than if they were older and returning to a workforce with people of older generations? And did geography also play a role in how well or readily they were accepted? --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
<br />
Reading Matsumoto's "Japanese American Women during World War II" reminded me of a story I had to read in English class during high school. The other story said that people would destroy the houses of Japanese-Americans and take what they wanted, destroying the rest. Did this happen often? How did women deal with a destroyed home when they returned? Did families return to the homes and properties they had before the internments? Were they able to? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
The article in US on the Japanese women I thought was interesting because right after the bombing of Pearl Harbor all of the Japanese were put in camps, and the Americans saw them as a threat, therefore putting them into these camps as a way to keep a watchfull eye on them as if they were to do something or had some part in why the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. This sounds all to familiar. When 9-11 happened Americans suddenly saw all middle easterners as a threat that were in the US. Although we did not throw them into camps, I remember watching the news and how they interviewed some immagrant middle easterners and how now they were treated differently.I've often wondered if the role was reveresed and an American white or black did something horrific in another country if other races would change the way the think of us, but by saying that what do other races, ethnicities think of us? I also thought how amazing it was that the Japanese found something good out of being kept in these camps, and utilized new skills they formed once they were out and used it to their advantage.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
Although I thought Matsumoto's point of view was interesting, I was not expecting to be persuaded that internment had benefits. I was upset that she went into little detail and provided few primary sources documenting the overall damage this event caused. Each time she mentioned the cultural "education" and opportunities these women were experiencing I was waiting for an explanation about the lack of hope and psychological damage that went along with it. I was suprised that there was not a sense of resentment towards American ideals by the Nisei after this experience. I felt like some piece of the story of Japanese American women during internment was missing. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
== Jeanne Wakatsuki Houston, Schoolgirl at Manzanar, 1940s ==<br />
<br />
In MP, I found it interesting to read about Jeanne Wakatsuki Houston whose father would not allow her to be confirmed in the Catholic church. He felt strongly that if she were confirmed she would never marry, especially a nice Japanese boy which is what he wanted. Was this the case with most girls around her age, with all religions? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
<br />
I don't think that the Japanese are unique in wanting a daughter to marry a man from the same ethnic background. I think that this has been a trait exhibited by other nationalities as well. What did strike me in this piece was a sense of creating an existence that seemed normal. Jeanne talked about school and after school activities like any other child. She doesn't project a sense of hopelessness. Instead she continues to study and develops interests in activities that she will continue once she leaves the internment camp.--LisaM<br />
<br />
== Photograph collections at Library of Congress ==<br />
<br />
I thought the photos of women during WWII were extremely interesting and mostly promote the stereotypical female experience on the home front. Are there any images that reflect the struggles that women faced at this time? How tired they were? The moving, long hours, and household duties? – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
I too found the photos very interesting. I was curious as to accurate they are for the overall population. Most seemed to show happy women who were excited to be doing their part but what about those that struggled? None of the picture really showed any kind of real hardship. I would have liked to see a larger variety of photos. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
I liked how the photos strived to capture average people in their daily activies rather than workers in action. I don't think that Bubley was trying persuade any ideal or stereotype but rather was quickly capturing groups of people and showing how different the work force had become during WWII. I thought that the photo of the women on the stairs waiting for the boarding house bathroom did show the hours of work the women had put in and the exhaustion they were facing. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
== Mary McLeod Bethune on black women and the war effort, 1940 ==<br />
<br />
I really liked this letter to the president. I was impressed that a black women would write to the president to encourage him to allow black women to work for the war effort. Bethune really seems to show how sincere her desire is to serve her country and wants to be given an equal shot. Did other black women write similar letters? What other ways did theses women try to find a way to serve?-- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
I also think it is great that African American women wrote to the president urging him to allow colored women job opportunities during the war. Did Roosevelt really make much of an effort to help African American women with decent jobs? –Ashley Scutari<br />
<br />
== Norma Yerger Queen, daycare worker in 1944 ==<br />
<br />
The second article (Mrs. Norma Yerger) she makes the statement that "Many women thoroughly enjoy working & getting away from the home."(373) I'm sure many did enjoy their jobs since some working conditions had improved but probably there were just as many who didn't like their jobs, for whatever reason. Also relating that statement to the movie we watched in class; there was one part were the women were ok with giving their job back to the man who once had the position before going off to war. How true is that? Were many simply ok with going back to being house wife and home maker, or did they really enjoy their job enough like the article says, therefore not wanting to give up their job.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
I found this article slightly amusing.I strongly agree with how she only would work 4 days a week so she could keep up with the house work. She shouldn't have to work all week and come home and do everything then go to bed and start all over again. What amuses me was that she talks about how her and her husband would try to split the house work but it just never worked out. He always had something to do, but so did Queen, its just because she was a woman domestic work was always on her list of things to do. I just really liked when she said when we did the house work it just didn't "click," and the fact that she is ok with this is even more amusing. I know as a girl in today's society if I were her I would not allow my husband to read the paper while I bust my butt cleaning everything in the house. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
== Women's Army Corps in North Africa and the Mediterranean, 1953 ==<br />
Did the WACs's performance in the 5th Army have any influence on how they were treated as military personnel after World War II? --Justin Mattos</div>199.111.68.165https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_10_Questions/Comments328--Week 10 Questions/Comments2008-03-27T02:45:02Z<p>199.111.68.165: /* Valerie Matsumoto, “Japanese American Women during WWII” */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Overarching questions ==<br />
I noticed in the movie in class and in the pictures, that the women were wearing pants. I think it is mentioned in a caption on page 179 in MAW, and several other times throughout the reading. This is quite a change from the ridiculous bicyling outfits we studied earlier. Was this a case of desperate times call for desperate measures or was it more acceptable during this time period for women to dress comfortably and efficiently at work/home while doing work? ---Landon Davis<br />
<br />
One thing i noticed throughout the MAW reading was a lack of overt patriotism. The oral history "Rosie the Riveter" by Hill focuses solely on the monetary aspects she gains by working. In "Women in the Armed Forces" the letters written by Stagemen only talk of how exciting it is, and allows her to stroke her ego as she talks about getting out of the plane and surprising all the men. I am not saying what they were doing was not patriotic because it was. But it does not sound like patriotism was the first reason alot of these women chose to work. Again in MP Bethune urges FDR to let African American women work. Bethune uses the term "united patriotism" but it seems more like a means to an end (equality) rather than the end in itself. Yerger expresses my skepticism on page 373 saying something like "women use the patriotic cause of their work as a front for the financial cause." ---- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
<br />
== Debate Topics ==<br />
Debate topic: did the war economically elevate families during its duration or impoverish them? -- Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
<br />
== Fanny Christina Hill, “Rosie the Riveter” ==<br />
<br />
I really enjoyed reading this article. It was interesting how they went to the school to train and recruit women for jobs. I found it interesting how these women went through several checks upon entering the building to work each day. I can understand the ID badge checks but why would they want to check their lunch? -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
I also found this article interesting especially because Fanny Hill talks about if she didn't like the job, she left it, and she wouldn't put up with a job that she didn't like. I really enjoyed reading that about her because I think that above all else show what kind of woman she was, a strong woman who knew what she wanted. Although, I was also confused as to why they would check their lunches, did they check them on the way out as well? Was it a fear of spying that made them do that?- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
In this article, she talks about the hiring process and how there were so many more women than men. She says "Most of the men was gone, and they weren't hiring too many men unless they had a good excuse." This seems like the reverse of the pattern during the Depression. During that time, women were not hired unless they had serious economic need. Now that it is wartime, it seems as though the encouragement is for men to fight in the war, so they will not be hired unless they have an excuse to not go into war. --Katie Nelson<br />
<br />
== Marion Stegeman, “Women in the Armed Forces” ==<br />
Marion Stegeman's letters in "Women in the Armed Forces" are interesting when she talks about the time she landed at Ballinger Air Field in order to get her bearings. Didn't the Squn. Commander have anything more pressing to do? It all seems a little strange to me considering the fact that we are now living in the middle of a gas crisis. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
<br />
At the end of Marion Stegman's letters she expresses her concern to her mother about her "love" Ned and how she wants to marry him but also how she will work indefinitely. During this time when the number of women working rapidly increased, were long distance relationships even possible? Or were couples forced to go their own way for survival purposes and hope to reconnect safely at a later time? --- Rose Feguson<br />
<br />
Marion Stegeman’s letters to her mother about being a WASP really highlight both the excitement and dangers of being in the AirForce. I am sure Marion’s mother worried about her, and I would like to have read her responses… but I was wondering if the mother ever read the letters and regretted never having those types of opportunities in her lifetime? – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
I LOVED Marion's letters! The way she changed her signature to sum up the mood of the letter and just the overall love she seemed to have for being a WASP was amazing. She seems to be a perfect example of why women wanted to get involved with the military in some fashion -- they were doing the jobs men used to do and were getting excellent credit for their accomplishments and being commended for their attitudes and hard work as women in the military. I think the letter about some of her friends being shot down and her other friend breaking down and leaving are both important points as well, though. Both of those reinforce the fact that these jobs weren't meant to be romanticized. They may have been women doing these jobs, but they were just as dangerous and women did die like men would have. Just because it was a woman doing the job did not mean that they were safe from harm. But my favorite letter had to be the one where she was blown off course and had to land on a different base. The statement, "The Army cadets and instructors nearly fell out of their plane when they saw a ''girl'' taxiing by in a B.T.!" I think is a perfect summation of some of how impressive some of these women truly were. Rosie the Riveter should be proud. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
I also really enjoyed Marion Stegeman's letters in MAW. I particularly enjoyed the last letter when she discusses her relationship with Ned and also her decisions to be a WASP. I love the line "I can do what I'm told gracefully now only because -- underneath it all-- I know i don't have to." I think that this highlights the role of choice and freedom in the wartime effort. --Katie Nelson<br />
<br />
I really Loved Marion Stegeman's letters. Especially since I had done my interview last week with my grandmother and I found out that she was part of the armed forces, not during WWII but after. But its cool to read these letters and know that a person in your family was part of it. I enjoyed reading the letters because they were full of so much emotion. There is such a difference between reading a male soldiers letters and a womans. The women show excitement and fear and sadness, they are great examples to know what these women were feeling at the time. I agree with Kelly, just her signature or her Dear Mother, or Mom, just showed what mood she was in. It also was surprising to me how accepting the men were with Stegeman and how much respect they gave her because of the talent she had. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
I also thought Marion Stegeman's letters were really fun to read. It was interesting how light-hearted and fun the letters were about flying the airplanes, as though it was no big deal that Marion was flying them when her mother could have never even dreamed of having the opportunity. These letters were great in highlighting how much women's roles progressed. --Kendall Haring<br />
<br />
== Hariette Arnow, “Wartime Migration” – ==<br />
<br />
Harriette Arnow’s excerpt on wartime migration discusses the confusion many women felt moving during WWII. It is clear from this article that wartime for women definitely wasn’t all opportunity and smiles, women also struggled to adapt and lived lives they probably never expected to. – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
This is one of those pieces that exhibits the silent burden of the woman. Gertie will not realize her dream of owning a farm because her dream is shadowed by Clovis's amibition to live in the big city and earn a higher wage. The ability to remain in Kentucky is probably not an option; she is burdened with the inability to sufficiently support her family, and she carries the guilt of a mother. "In was in truth like her mother said: the children had a right to live with their father." She is in charge of putting a meal together that is supposed to please her husband, she waits on the family, and worries about money. Her husband's attitude seems irresponsible and insensitive to the situation he has placed his family. They can't afford meat on the table, but he owns a car. He puts his head down on the pillow and falls asleep while Gertie remains awake. Gertie is trapped in a world that is dictated to her.--LisaM<br />
<br />
== Monica Sone, “Japanese Relocation” – ==<br />
<br />
<br />
I really enjoyed reading this one because it actually suprised me. I expected it to be a far more depressing story and while it was very sad that these families had to deal with this I also felt like it was not nearly as sad as it could have been. I found Monica Sone's mother inspiring because she seemed to look for the good in everything. Although the tent/cabin/apartment wasn't well built, she was happy that there were dandelions, because it brought happiness into the room. As well as how she reacted to the latrine being close, she didn't say oh this is gonna smell she said oh look! we won't have to walk a long ways. I found that aspect of the story very very inspiring. - Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
I agree with Elizabeth. When I began reading the introduction for this account and the autobiography itself, I was prepared for something much more depressing. Not to say this wasn't at all upsetting or hard to read, it's just that having the mother in the story and reading about how lighthearted she seemed to be made it seem like she made the stay more bearable. You could definitely see tensions between first generation immigrants and families that had been in the states longer because the older the men and women were, the more disgruntled they seemed to be. When Monica discussed her meal at the dining hall, the description of the Issei man she was next to compared to the description of the messy little girl next to her made that tension apparent. The last paragraph really got to me, though, when she brought up the wire fence. "What was I doing behind a fence like a criminal?" It wasn't fair the way these people were treated and I'm just grateful Monica was lucky enough to leave and go off to school. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
I feel bad for how Monica Sone feels with not knowing where she belongs. She is not considered a U.S. citizen anymore nor is she a citizen from Japan such as her mother and father. Sone feels more like a criminal. She and her family have followed all the American government rules such as paying taxes and are still discriminated against because of her Japanese ancestry. –Ashley Scutari<br />
<br />
== Ruth Marshak, “Women of Wartime Los Alamos” ==<br />
<br />
The contrast between the concluding sentence of Ruth Marshak's "Women of Wartime Los Alamos" and the rest of the reading is interesting. She describes life as being so dreary and containing so many hardships and then ends by saying it was a great experience. Is that due to the fact that certain portions of her account were left out by the editors of the book in which her account is located? --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
I had the same question that Justin remarks on above. She started off with describing the place as this horrible entity, but ends it with Los Alamos being an educational experience and that they'll never feel that connected to a town again. Are there parts left out? or does she write this article in this way so that she could throw the bit of twist at the end? -- Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
I thought it was interesting to read "Women of Wartime Los Alamos" by Ruth Marshak, because it showed a less common war time experience. It sounds like the woman who was describing her experience in this selection didn’t have a family with children, were there other families that moved there with children as well. If so, were these communities complete with some kind of education system as well? She describes the social aspects but not much further. What were the women’s roles in Los Alamos if they didn’t have children and while the husbands were working in the lab? --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
== Valerie Matsumoto, “Japanese American Women during WWII” ==<br />
Matsumoto discusses “Japanese American Women during World War II” in Unequal Sisters. Part of it deals with the resettlement of some of the women from the Japanese internment camps, most of them being younger women attending college. Today, people tend to associate college educated people, and students of college age, with more liberal ideals. Was that true during this time as well? Was it easier for younger women of Japanese decent to be accepted in a college or university setting than if they were older and returning to a workforce with people of older generations? And did geography also play a role in how well or readily they were accepted? --Jessica Kilday<br />
<br />
<br />
Reading Matsumoto's "Japanese American Women during World War II" reminded me of a story I had to read in English class during high school. The other story said that people would destroy the houses of Japanese-Americans and take what they wanted, destroying the rest. Did this happen often? How did women deal with a destroyed home when they returned? Did families return to the homes and properties they had before the internments? Were they able to? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
<br />
The article in US on the Japanese women I thought was interesting because right after the bombing of Pearl Harbor all of the Japanese were put in camps, and the Americans saw them as a threat, therefore putting them into these camps as a way to keep a watchfull eye on them as if they were to do something or had some part in why the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. This sounds all to familiar. When 9-11 happened Americans suddenly saw all middle easterners as a threat that were in the US. Although we did not throw them into camps, I remember watching the news and how they interviewed some immagrant middle easterners and how now they were treated differently.I've often wondered if the role was reveresed and an American white or black did something horrific in another country if other races would change the way the think of us, but by saying that what do other races, ethnicities think of us? I also thought how amazing it was that the Japanese found something good out of being kept in these camps, and utilized new skills they formed once they were out and used it to their advantage.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
Although I thought Matsumoto's point of view was interesting, I was not expecting to be persuaded that internment had benefits. I was upset that she went into little detail and provided few primary sources documenting the overall damage this event caused. Each time she mentioned the cultural "education" and opportunities these women were experiencing I was waiting for an explanation about the lack of hope and psychological damage that went along with it. I was suprised that there was not a sense of resentment towards American ideals by the Nisei after this experience. I felt like some piece of the story of Japanese American women during internment was missing. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
== Jeanne Wakatsuki Houston, Schoolgirl at Manzanar, 1940s ==<br />
<br />
In MP, I found it interesting to read about Jeanne Wakatsuki Houston whose father would not allow her to be confirmed in the Catholic church. He felt strongly that if she were confirmed she would never marry, especially a nice Japanese boy which is what he wanted. Was this the case with most girls around her age, with all religions? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
<br />
I don't think that the Japanese are unique in wanting a daughter to marry a man from the same ethnic background. I think that this has been a trait exhibited by other nationalities as well. What did strike me in this piece was a sense of creating an existence that seemed normal. Jeanne talked about school and after school activities like any other child. She doesn't project a sense of hopelessness. Instead she continues to study and develops interests in activities that she will continue once she leaves the internment camp.--LisaM<br />
<br />
== Photograph collections at Library of Congress ==<br />
<br />
I thought the photos of women during WWII were extremely interesting and mostly promote the stereotypical female experience on the home front. Are there any images that reflect the struggles that women faced at this time? How tired they were? The moving, long hours, and household duties? – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
I too found the photos very interesting. I was curious as to accurate they are for the overall population. Most seemed to show happy women who were excited to be doing their part but what about those that struggled? None of the picture really showed any kind of real hardship. I would have liked to see a larger variety of photos. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
== Mary McLeod Bethune on black women and the war effort, 1940 ==<br />
<br />
I really liked this letter to the president. I was impressed that a black women would write to the president to encourage him to allow black women to work for the war effort. Bethune really seems to show how sincere her desire is to serve her country and wants to be given an equal shot. Did other black women write similar letters? What other ways did theses women try to find a way to serve?-- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
I also think it is great that African American women wrote to the president urging him to allow colored women job opportunities during the war. Did Roosevelt really make much of an effort to help African American women with decent jobs? –Ashley Scutari<br />
<br />
== Norma Yerger Queen, daycare worker in 1944 ==<br />
<br />
The second article (Mrs. Norma Yerger) she makes the statement that "Many women thoroughly enjoy working & getting away from the home."(373) I'm sure many did enjoy their jobs since some working conditions had improved but probably there were just as many who didn't like their jobs, for whatever reason. Also relating that statement to the movie we watched in class; there was one part were the women were ok with giving their job back to the man who once had the position before going off to war. How true is that? Were many simply ok with going back to being house wife and home maker, or did they really enjoy their job enough like the article says, therefore not wanting to give up their job.--Michelle M.<br />
<br />
I found this article slightly amusing.I strongly agree with how she only would work 4 days a week so she could keep up with the house work. She shouldn't have to work all week and come home and do everything then go to bed and start all over again. What amuses me was that she talks about how her and her husband would try to split the house work but it just never worked out. He always had something to do, but so did Queen, its just because she was a woman domestic work was always on her list of things to do. I just really liked when she said when we did the house work it just didn't "click," and the fact that she is ok with this is even more amusing. I know as a girl in today's society if I were her I would not allow my husband to read the paper while I bust my butt cleaning everything in the house. -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
== Women's Army Corps in North Africa and the Mediterranean, 1953 ==<br />
Did the WACs's performance in the 5th Army have any influence on how they were treated as military personnel after World War II? --Justin Mattos</div>199.111.68.165https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_10_Questions/Comments328--Week 10 Questions/Comments2008-03-27T02:41:21Z<p>199.111.68.165: /* Valerie Matsumoto, “Japanese American Women during WWII” */</p>
<hr />
<div>== Overarching questions ==<br />
I noticed in the movie in class and in the pictures, that the women were wearing pants. I think it is mentioned in a caption on page 179 in MAW, and several other times throughout the reading. This is quite a change from the ridiculous bicyling outfits we studied earlier. Was this a case of desperate times call for desperate measures or was it more acceptable during this time period for women to dress comfortably and efficiently at work/home while doing work? ---Landon Davis<br />
<br />
One thing i noticed throughout the MAW reading was a lack of overt patriotism. The oral history "Rosie the Riveter" by Hill focuses solely on the monetary aspects she gains by working. In "Women in the Armed Forces" the letters written by Stagemen only talk of how exciting it is, and allows her to stroke her ego as she talks about getting out of the plane and surprising all the men. I am not saying what they were doing was not patriotic because it was. But it does not sound like patriotism was the first reason alot of these women chose to work. Again in MP Bethune urges FDR to let African American women work. Bethune uses the term "united patriotism" but it seems more like a means to an end (equality) rather than the end in itself. Yerger expresses my skepticism on page 373 saying something like "women use the patriotic cause of their work as a front for the financial cause." ---- Landon Davis<br />
<br />
<br />
== Debate Topics ==<br />
Debate topic: did the war economically elevate families during its duration or impoverish them? -- Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
<br />
== Fanny Christina Hill, “Rosie the Riveter” ==<br />
<br />
I really enjoyed reading this article. It was interesting how they went to the school to train and recruit women for jobs. I found it interesting how these women went through several checks upon entering the building to work each day. I can understand the ID badge checks but why would they want to check their lunch? -- Kellye Sorber<br />
<br />
I also found this article interesting especially because Fanny Hill talks about if she didn't like the job, she left it, and she wouldn't put up with a job that she didn't like. I really enjoyed reading that about her because I think that above all else show what kind of woman she was, a strong woman who knew what she wanted. Although, I was also confused as to why they would check their lunches, did they check them on the way out as well? Was it a fear of spying that made them do that?- Elizabeth Frank<br />
<br />
In this article, she talks about the hiring process and how there were so many more women than men. She says "Most of the men was gone, and they weren't hiring too many men unless they had a good excuse." This seems like the reverse of the pattern during the Depression. During that time, women were not hired unless they had serious economic need. Now that it is wartime, it seems as though the encouragement is for men to fight in the war, so they will not be hired unless they have an excuse to not go into war. --Katie Nelson<br />
<br />
== Marion Stegeman, “Women in the Armed Forces” ==<br />
Marion Stegeman's letters in "Women in the Armed Forces" are interesting when she talks about the time she landed at Ballinger Air Field in order to get her bearings. Didn't the Squn. Commander have anything more pressing to do? It all seems a little strange to me considering the fact that we are now living in the middle of a gas crisis. --Justin Mattos<br />
<br />
<br />
At the end of Marion Stegman's letters she expresses her concern to her mother about her "love" Ned and how she wants to marry him but also how she will work indefinitely. During this time when the number of women working rapidly increased, were long distance relationships even possible? Or were couples forced to go their own way for survival purposes and hope to reconnect safely at a later time? --- Rose Feguson<br />
<br />
Marion Stegeman’s letters to her mother about being a WASP really highlight both the excitement and dangers of being in the AirForce. I am sure Marion’s mother worried about her, and I would like to have read her responses… but I was wondering if the mother ever read the letters and regretted never having those types of opportunities in her lifetime? – Cat Debelius<br />
<br />
I LOVED Marion's letters! The way she changed her signature to sum up the mood of the letter and just the overall love she seemed to have for being a WASP was amazing. She seems to be a perfect example of why women wanted to get involved with the military in some fashion -- they were doing the jobs men used to do and were getting excellent credit for their accomplishments and being commended for their attitudes and hard work as women in the military. I think the letter about some of her friends being shot down and her other friend breaking down and leaving are both important points as well, though. Both of those reinforce the fact that these jobs weren't meant to be romanticized. They may have been women doing these jobs, but they were just as dangerous and women did die like men would have. Just because it was a woman doing the job did not mean that they were safe from harm. But my favorite letter had to be the one where she was blown off course and had to land on a different base. The statement, "The Army cadets and instructors nearly fell out of their plane when they saw a ''girl'' taxiing by in a B.T.!" I think is a perfect summation of some of how impressive some of these women truly were. Rosie the Riveter should be proud. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
<br />
I also really enjoyed Marion Stegeman's letters in MAW. I particularly enjoyed the last letter when she discusses her relationship with Ned and also her decisions to be a WASP. I love the line "I can do what I'm told gracefully now only because -- underneath it all-- I know i don't have to." I think that this highlights the role of choice and freedom in the wartime effort. --Katie Nelson<br />
<br />
I really Loved Marion Stegeman's letters. Especially since I had done my interview last week with my grandmother and I found out that she was part of the armed forces, not during WWII but after. But its cool to read these letters and know that a person in your family was part of it. I enjoyed reading the letters because they were full of so much emotion. There is such a difference between reading a male soldiers letters and a womans. The women show excitement and fear and sadness, they are great examples to know what these women were feeling at the time. I agree with Kelly, just her signature or her Dear Mother, or Mom, just showed what mood she was in. It also was surprising to me how accepting the men were with Stegeman and how much respect they gave her because of the talent she had. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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== Hariette Arnow, “Wartime Migration” – ==<br />
<br />
Harriette Arnow’s excerpt on wartime migration discusses the confusion many women felt moving during WWII. It is clear from this article that wartime for women definitely wasn’t all opportunity and smiles, women also struggled to adapt and lived lives they probably never expected to. – Cat Debelius<br />
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This is one of those pieces that exhibits the silent burden of the woman. Gertie will not realize her dream of owning a farm because her dream is shadowed by Clovis's amibition to live in the big city and earn a higher wage. The ability to remain in Kentucky is probably not an option; she is burdened with the inability to sufficiently support her family, and she carries the guilt of a mother. "In was in truth like her mother said: the children had a right to live with their father." She is in charge of putting a meal together that is supposed to please her husband, she waits on the family, and worries about money. Her husband's attitude seems irresponsible and insensitive to the situation he has placed his family. They can't afford meat on the table, but he owns a car. He puts his head down on the pillow and falls asleep while Gertie remains awake. Gertie is trapped in a world that is dictated to her.--LisaM<br />
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== Monica Sone, “Japanese Relocation” – ==<br />
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<br />
I really enjoyed reading this one because it actually suprised me. I expected it to be a far more depressing story and while it was very sad that these families had to deal with this I also felt like it was not nearly as sad as it could have been. I found Monica Sone's mother inspiring because she seemed to look for the good in everything. Although the tent/cabin/apartment wasn't well built, she was happy that there were dandelions, because it brought happiness into the room. As well as how she reacted to the latrine being close, she didn't say oh this is gonna smell she said oh look! we won't have to walk a long ways. I found that aspect of the story very very inspiring. - Elizabeth Frank<br />
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I agree with Elizabeth. When I began reading the introduction for this account and the autobiography itself, I was prepared for something much more depressing. Not to say this wasn't at all upsetting or hard to read, it's just that having the mother in the story and reading about how lighthearted she seemed to be made it seem like she made the stay more bearable. You could definitely see tensions between first generation immigrants and families that had been in the states longer because the older the men and women were, the more disgruntled they seemed to be. When Monica discussed her meal at the dining hall, the description of the Issei man she was next to compared to the description of the messy little girl next to her made that tension apparent. The last paragraph really got to me, though, when she brought up the wire fence. "What was I doing behind a fence like a criminal?" It wasn't fair the way these people were treated and I'm just grateful Monica was lucky enough to leave and go off to school. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I feel bad for how Monica Sone feels with not knowing where she belongs. She is not considered a U.S. citizen anymore nor is she a citizen from Japan such as her mother and father. Sone feels more like a criminal. She and her family have followed all the American government rules such as paying taxes and are still discriminated against because of her Japanese ancestry. –Ashley Scutari<br />
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== Ruth Marshak, “Women of Wartime Los Alamos” ==<br />
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The contrast between the concluding sentence of Ruth Marshak's "Women of Wartime Los Alamos" and the rest of the reading is interesting. She describes life as being so dreary and containing so many hardships and then ends by saying it was a great experience. Is that due to the fact that certain portions of her account were left out by the editors of the book in which her account is located? --Justin Mattos<br />
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I had the same question that Justin remarks on above. She started off with describing the place as this horrible entity, but ends it with Los Alamos being an educational experience and that they'll never feel that connected to a town again. Are there parts left out? or does she write this article in this way so that she could throw the bit of twist at the end? -- Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I thought it was interesting to read "Women of Wartime Los Alamos" by Ruth Marshak, because it showed a less common war time experience. It sounds like the woman who was describing her experience in this selection didn’t have a family with children, were there other families that moved there with children as well. If so, were these communities complete with some kind of education system as well? She describes the social aspects but not much further. What were the women’s roles in Los Alamos if they didn’t have children and while the husbands were working in the lab? --Jessica Kilday<br />
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== Valerie Matsumoto, “Japanese American Women during WWII” ==<br />
Matsumoto discusses “Japanese American Women during World War II” in Unequal Sisters. Part of it deals with the resettlement of some of the women from the Japanese internment camps, most of them being younger women attending college. Today, people tend to associate college educated people, and students of college age, with more liberal ideals. Was that true during this time as well? Was it easier for younger women of Japanese decent to be accepted in a college or university setting than if they were older and returning to a workforce with people of older generations? And did geography also play a role in how well or readily they were accepted? --Jessica Kilday<br />
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Reading Matsumoto's "Japanese American Women during World War II" reminded me of a story I had to read in English class during high school. The other story said that people would destroy the houses of Japanese-Americans and take what they wanted, destroying the rest. Did this happen often? How did women deal with a destroyed home when they returned? Did families return to the homes and properties they had before the internments? Were they able to? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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The article in US on the Japanese women I thought was interesting because right after the bombing of Pearl Harbor all of the Japanese were put in camps, and the Americans saw them as a threat, therefore putting them into these camps as a way to keep a watchfull eye on them as if they were to do something or had some part in why the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. This sounds all to familiar. When 9-11 happened Americans suddenly saw all middle easterners as a threat that were in the US. Although we did not throw them into camps, I remember watching the news and how they interviewed some immagrant middle easterners and how now they were treated differently.I've often wondered if the role was reveresed and an American white or black did something horrific in another country if other races would change the way the think of us, but by saying that what do other races, ethnicities think of us? I also thought how amazing it was that the Japanese found something good out of being kept in these camps, and utilized new skills they formed once they were out and used it to their advantage.--Michelle M.<br />
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Although I thought Matsumoto's point of view was interesting, I was not expecting to be persuaded that internment had benefits. I was upset that she went into little detail and provided few primary sources documenting the overall damage this event caused. Each time she mentioned the cultural "education" and opportunities these women were experiencing I was waiting for an explanation about the lack of hope and psychological damage that went along with it. I was suprised that there was not a sense of resentment towards American ideals by the Japanese after this experience. I felt like some piece of the story of Japanese American women during internment was missing. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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== Jeanne Wakatsuki Houston, Schoolgirl at Manzanar, 1940s ==<br />
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In MP, I found it interesting to read about Jeanne Wakatsuki Houston whose father would not allow her to be confirmed in the Catholic church. He felt strongly that if she were confirmed she would never marry, especially a nice Japanese boy which is what he wanted. Was this the case with most girls around her age, with all religions? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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I don't think that the Japanese are unique in wanting a daughter to marry a man from the same ethnic background. I think that this has been a trait exhibited by other nationalities as well. What did strike me in this piece was a sense of creating an existence that seemed normal. Jeanne talked about school and after school activities like any other child. She doesn't project a sense of hopelessness. Instead she continues to study and develops interests in activities that she will continue once she leaves the internment camp.--LisaM<br />
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== Photograph collections at Library of Congress ==<br />
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I thought the photos of women during WWII were extremely interesting and mostly promote the stereotypical female experience on the home front. Are there any images that reflect the struggles that women faced at this time? How tired they were? The moving, long hours, and household duties? – Cat Debelius<br />
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I too found the photos very interesting. I was curious as to accurate they are for the overall population. Most seemed to show happy women who were excited to be doing their part but what about those that struggled? None of the picture really showed any kind of real hardship. I would have liked to see a larger variety of photos. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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== Mary McLeod Bethune on black women and the war effort, 1940 ==<br />
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I really liked this letter to the president. I was impressed that a black women would write to the president to encourage him to allow black women to work for the war effort. Bethune really seems to show how sincere her desire is to serve her country and wants to be given an equal shot. Did other black women write similar letters? What other ways did theses women try to find a way to serve?-- Kellye Sorber<br />
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I also think it is great that African American women wrote to the president urging him to allow colored women job opportunities during the war. Did Roosevelt really make much of an effort to help African American women with decent jobs? –Ashley Scutari<br />
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== Norma Yerger Queen, daycare worker in 1944 ==<br />
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The second article (Mrs. Norma Yerger) she makes the statement that "Many women thoroughly enjoy working & getting away from the home."(373) I'm sure many did enjoy their jobs since some working conditions had improved but probably there were just as many who didn't like their jobs, for whatever reason. Also relating that statement to the movie we watched in class; there was one part were the women were ok with giving their job back to the man who once had the position before going off to war. How true is that? Were many simply ok with going back to being house wife and home maker, or did they really enjoy their job enough like the article says, therefore not wanting to give up their job.--Michelle M.<br />
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I found this article slightly amusing.I strongly agree with how she only would work 4 days a week so she could keep up with the house work. She shouldn't have to work all week and come home and do everything then go to bed and start all over again. What amuses me was that she talks about how her and her husband would try to split the house work but it just never worked out. He always had something to do, but so did Queen, its just because she was a woman domestic work was always on her list of things to do. I just really liked when she said when we did the house work it just didn't "click," and the fact that she is ok with this is even more amusing. I know as a girl in today's society if I were her I would not allow my husband to read the paper while I bust my butt cleaning everything in the house. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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== Women's Army Corps in North Africa and the Mediterranean, 1953 ==<br />
Did the WACs's performance in the 5th Army have any influence on how they were treated as military personnel after World War II? --Justin Mattos</div>199.111.68.165https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_9_Questions/Comments328--Week 9 Questions/Comments2008-03-20T04:23:13Z<p>199.111.68.165: /* Dorothy Dunbar Bromley on Birth Control in the Depression */</p>
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<div>== "I Want You Women Up North to Know" by Tillie Olson ==<br />
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In "I Want You Women Up North to Know" by Tillie Olson I found this line hilarious " ...she says that he prays and dreams of a another world...a heaven (which he does not know was brought to earth in 1917 in Russia, by workers like him)"...hind-sight is 20/20 right?- Emely Amaya<br />
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I found this reading interesting but at the same time confusing. Tillie Olson is clearly attacking the women in the north who are buying the clothes that are being made, but its these women that are allowing the women she is writing about to have their jobs. Yes, their conditions are horrible and the pay is horrible, but thats not a reason to attack the other women I would think. I would also think that the depression, while it might have lessened in the Northern cities, was still affecting their lives, so her accusations seem to me to be unjustified.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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I found it interesting that Tillie Olson used a poem to express the conditions of the sweatships and garment workers. It is a very disturbing and graphic poem. A poem tends to be beautiful and lyrical but this really stands out because of how harsh it is in tone. It was really effective in creating the image of such a terrible life. -Kendall Haring<br />
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Did the South have a harder time in the Great Depression because it was less industrialized? – Cat Debelius<br />
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== Annelise Orleck, "Militant Housewives of the Depression" ==<br />
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I was amazed to learn how organized and militant housewives were during the Great Depression. Prior to reading this week's reading, I didn't know people were able to actually find constructive ways of regaining a semblance of their previous way of life during the Great Depression. --Justin Mattos<br />
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I LOVED this reading! I enjoyed seeing how women reacted to some of the hardships of the depression in a more aggressive way. I found it interesting that Orleck mentions that the women who were speaking out weren't doing so because they wanted the attention but because they wanted to be able to fulfill their duties as wives and mothers, which fits into the idea of what a woman was supposed to be doing, making their efforts more acceptable in society. I had no idea that they were able to accomplish so much or that the movement of housewives was so widespread across the U.S.! These I think are definitely ones who, if I was a mother during this period, I would want my children to respect and look up to because they were fighting for something they believed so strongly in (even though I'd prefer to be something more than a housewife). -Elizabeth Frank<br />
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This really was a fun article to read. I was very impressed at how these women managed to keep their life somewhat the same during the depression. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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I too thought this article was very interesting and empowering. The different tactics these housewives used to ban together and create change brought many interesting images to mind. I really like how Moser points out that these movements were " 'an education for women'". However it is quite upsetting that it took these circumstances for this education to occur and for Americans to make the connection of the value between producing and consuming. I wonder did these movements outlast the images and ideals brought to mind by the 1950's? -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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== All Eleanor Roosevelt readings ==<br />
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All of this week's readings about and created by Eleanor Roosevelt really confirmed history's seemingly high opinion of her. The fact that the Roosevelts' were able to constructively respond to all of their mail during the Great Depression is very admirable. --Justin Mattos<br />
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I thougth it was interesting that women actually took the time to write Eleanor Roosevelt about things that they desperately needed, like clothing and jobs for their husbands. Just thinking in today's world and if a depression happened now, I would think it pointless to write the first lady about what I desperately needed, just because I would think she for one probably would never even read the letter and two she probably wouldn't care much less help me. Yet so many women in the 1930's wrote her their depressing situations, I assume because they were just so desperate and no one else could help them so why couldn't the first lady. They probably thougtht too that Eleanor could influence her husband since he was the President to make him do something. Also article 5 and 6 in MP show that Eleanor did actually take recongnition of the problems during the depression and talked about the problems and spoke actively on many of the problems she saw.--Michelle M.<br />
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What I found interesting were the letters to the Roosevelt's and specifically Eleanor in both MAW and MPA. Like Michelle had said I wouldn't be writing to the first lady if there was a depression. Especially in today's society the letter would just get lost or thrown away. One of the letters did bother me a bit. I know it really shouldn't have but, the one about the little girl who wants roller blades.... to me its just so wrong. I know she is younger and doesn't understand what is going on, but it just really bugged me that she asked for roller blades when people are dieing of hunger, and are out of work and on the streets. Then there is this girl asking for roller blades because he friends are making fun of her. No matter what age you are things like that just bother me. Also wouldn't the parents maybe explain to their child that mommy and daddy are having a few problems financially? -- Amanda Taub<br />
'''(McClurken don't make fun of me to much in class, I like to be there when i am made fun of save a little for Tuesday).'''<br />
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In response to Amanda's comment - each person, depending on their age, sex or race values different things - to a twelve year old girl, being ostricised in school because her family could not afford a pair of skates seemed just as traumatizing to her as the woman who could not afford clothes for her baby. I know the difference in the degree of severity between these two requests may seem laughable to some, it just goes to show that the Depression was a reality for all. One common theme that I did notice amongst the various letters is the sense of pride Americans still had, despite their desperate conditions. Here is a discussion question: Do you think Americans today still hold that same sense of pride and dignity? ~Juliann Boyles<br />
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For me the most interesting letter to Eleanor Roosevelt was the second one. The woman thanked Roosevelt for her reply to the last letter, but then said she did not need charity just a loan, even sending in collateral she claimed was valuable. However, what bothers me here is not the fact that the first lady could not possibly begin to make individual loans to people, but the size of this woman's ego or pride. She claimed she gave up her rings which held the highest emotional value to her, this is not true. What holds the highest value in this woman's life is clearly her ability to save face, her pride. If she was truly desperate, and in such great need that she would ask a loan from a stranger, she should be willing to give up her greatest asset; that of her ego, and take the charity that the government has set up for her. I have noticed the same trend more subtly throughout the rest of the readings, what is causing this? Is it a few isolated cases or does this pride fit in with the overall atttidue of the day, or somehow into the middle class ideals we have talked so extensively about? --- Landon Davis<br />
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I think that pride can be considered a weakness. I could understand a child asking for something as trivial as skates, but the mother sending a shopping list to Eleanor Roosevelt was bothersome. During a time of extreme financial hardship this women focussed on the clothing of an infant. Then I thought that maybe this woman may not have been able to apply to the Welfare Association. In my interview with a senior woman, she mentioned how her mother during the depression found a way to feed the family and save money. She was suggesting aid from the government, which her husband refused. There was a prevailing attitude at the time that if you were working you were not poor, and therefore did not need the government's assistance. Is the act of asking for a baby's layette prompted by this mother's vanity. This woman had to have clothing from previous children, but she seemed intent on having a new set. Is the ability to dress a child, even during the worst of times, a measure of her ability to be a good mother?--LisaM <br />
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I found the reading of "American Women ASk Eleanor for Help" Interesting as well as heartbreaking. It amazed me to read that within a day Eleanor would have 5 to 8 thousand letters and she made a huge effort to either answer them herself or pass it on to the correct agency. It surprised me the things the ladies asked for varying from roller skates to a job for a husband. How was Roosevelt able to answer all of these letters and was she able to satisfy the needs and wants of most? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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"Eleanor Roosevelt Urges Better Understanding and Cooperation of Both White and Negro Races," <br />
In this reading, she is basically saying that in order to be respected, African Americans need to raise their standards of living. She says that everyone needs to work together to stop injustices.--Nikole Wellman<br />
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I could not believe that women would give up personal belongings to show Mrs. Roosevelt how much they needed help. One women sent Mrs. Roosevelt her rings in order to receive baby clothes. Did Mrs. Roosevelt actually reply back to some of these women's letters? --Ashley Scutari<br />
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Did the Roosevelts ever follow up with the girls that wrote them and give them the things they requested in their letters? – Cat Debelius<br />
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== Meridel Lesueur, "Despair of Unemployed Women" ==<br />
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Reading Meridel Lesueur's article really struck me. Just how starved the women were, and the endless sitting at the job bureau day after day. The description of some of their faces really made me feel a little sad. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I found this reading interesting because it showed that the middle class ideals, or what i guess could be described as middle class prejudice or maybe just denial in this case, still affected women even in this time of crisis. Where as before when the economy was good, women were not afforded the same opportunities as men (i.e. lower wages, lower glass ceilings, smaller scope of job opportunities), now in the depression women still arent afforded the same rights and opportunities as men (i.e. no flop houses, a cultural unwillingness to see women living in the parks, and charities only helping the deserving few). -- Landon Davis<br />
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Just the fact that citizens had so much trust in the Roosevelt's, particularly Eleanor, and that they actually did care about the American people, is very refreshing to think about in these jaded times. Phil N.<br />
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This piece really struck me - the despair, the utter hopelessness of these women's lives. But despite everything, many retained their pride, mending their stockings, hiding away in condemned apartments, refusing charity and public displays of poverty. When the author mentioned the one woman who finally broke, it made me think, most of these single women endured starvation and extreme poverty but continued to sit in that office daily waiting for a job that would never come - how strong they were. But somehow, many of these women made it through the Depression - somehow they survived, which really shows the strength of the human condition.~Juliann Boyles<br />
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This piece was so incredible because I got a true sense of the despair of life during the Depression. The images were so vivid: living in condemned apartments, Mrs. Grey, sitting every day at the employment bureau. It emphasized how these women struggled to support their families in such a hopeless time. -Kendall Haring<br />
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Meridel LeSueur highlights that it was very hard for unemployed women in the Depression, and in her discussion she remarks that pretty girls get better jobs. I thought this was interesting, because in another one of my classes, we were talking about how this still happens today… and I think that is disgusting. – Cat Debelius<br />
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== Ann Marie Low's "The Dust Bowl" ==<br />
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Ann Marie Low's "The Dust Bowl" was intriguing to read. Just how much dust piled up and how much they had to wash to keep their dishes, clothes, and house clean was unreal. I had always been told that there was 'a lot of dust,' but this article really put it in perspective. How did the people manage to live in it? I know that it said many babies and elderly died in it, but how did people live in it? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I really like the piece titled Dust Bowl.Finding out the things these people had to go through. The excessive cleaning that occurs before anything, all the hours put into cleaning are such wasted hours. I never really thought of it like this, all this time spent on the cleaning could have been used for finding a job or getting more food. The one thing that did give me a little relief was that Ann Marie Low, the girl writing this had time for leisure, she was able to go out to the movies, that even through this she was able to maintain some social life. Even though sometimes housekeeping did get in the way she was able to do things for her self. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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Ignoring the fact of the endless dust, life for this family seemed to be much better, as Amanda said the girl seemed to have time for leisure, and the ham, eggs, and bread seem like a feast compared to the rations of crackers described in the earlier readings of women in the cities. Was this true for the majority of rural families compared with those in the cities? Or is this a rare case? As an afterthought, I still havent decided if I would rather starve or live in all that dust, both sound unpleasant.----Landon Davis<br />
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== Margaret Jarman Hagood's "The Life Cycle of a White Southern Farm Woman" ==<br />
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Margaret Jarman Hagood's "The Life Cycle of a White Southern Farm Woman" was so depressing! I was reading it and toward the end I had to stop and just stare at the book. I never realized that a baby that close to birth who was so active could just... die like that. 11 days before birth! I read it allowed to my husband and our friend who was visiting and they both stared at me and asked "Why are you reading something so depressing!?!?" Does those kinds of death still happen in America today? I mean, that close to birth? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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This article bothered me a bit. Like Ashley I was shocked about the death of her baby so close to its birth but Margaret Hagood seemed to be extremely petty to me. She was annoyed because one of her children wasn't as pretty as she hoped and she just seemed annoyed that she couldn't have all the material things that she wanted. I just found her annoying because she seemed to not be upset because of the hardship of the depression but because she was worried that her daughter and that she, herself, wouldn't be viewed as pretty.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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== Genora Johnson Dollinger, "Women and Labor Militancy" ==<br />
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Dollinger's essay on "Women and Labor Militancy" was interesting. I I had no idea some women took it so far and seriously in these union groups. Sure we've learned how they take a militant approuch, but the lady in this reading was beyond that. What I thought was so interesting about her was how she used her gender against the cops in order to get where and what she wanted. She knew as a women that the cops would not shoot her in the back like they would a man, and therefore marching herself right in there on these strikes helping to defend these men, as well as using a type of reverse psychology on the cops to try and get them to see their fight. Pretty smart. On top of that she is like, oh by the way I had TB while I was doing all of this. She had some guts. She had a lot of women back her up on these strikes and even though the cops did not shoot them like they may have done to men I wonder if any got arrested at least?--Michelle M.<br />
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Dollinger wrote about "Women and Labor Militancy" in the 1930's. Women formed the Emergency Brigade as their form of activism, which at the time was very appreciated by the men it was helping. However, as women's roles in these positions became less necessary and demands were being met, their roles became less necessary. People quickly reverted back to their previous expectations and as it states on page 170 men began saying, "Well, you women did a wonderful job, but now your duty is back there getting those kids in school, getting the wash done, and regular meals again…" Though the women were helpful for that time, does it really show progress for women and their increasingly public roles if it can disappear as quickly as it can emerge? I think it shows how easily the situation of women can change within certain societal conditions, how fragile progress can be, and how easily it is to revert back to the default. The challenge then becomes not how to be more active and make progress at a certain time or under certain circumstances, but how to use all of these collectively to change the default. –Jessica Kilday<br />
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I found it interesting to read the account of a woman raised in Flint Michigan and working with tue unions. Not only was I raised an hour or so south of Flint but both of my grandparents worked for the UAW during the depression. It's interesting to read what these women went through because its not something my grandparents talk about often. -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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== Carlotta Martin's "A Mexican-American Childhood during the Depression" ==<br />
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In "A Mexican-American Childhood during the Depression" Carlotta Martin discusses what is like growing up in the barrio and how difficult life was during the Great Depression. She mentions that it was more common for children to be raised by their grandparents. Would this be in the sense that was it common for grandparents to live in the same households as their children and other extended family and for them to serve as we would see babysitters today? Or did the grandparents take their grandchildren, live separately, and give both parents a chance to work. Was this common within other ethnic groups or social classes as well? Or did it simply serve as an opportunity for the children to get an education as opposed to working to help their struggling families during the depression? –Jessica Kilday<br />
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== Photo Essay ==<br />
Personally, I loved the Photo essay. I think that photographs are a really interesting way to show how things have changed from one era to the next and the pictures in this week's reading did just that. Seeing women in pants and with shorter hair on almost every girl was a neat thing to see because this had recently become a new fad. The photos are also a great way to visualize what we were talking about in class on Tuesday, including women working in men's jobs while they went off to war (like in the aviation plant photo) and joining and supporting unions (like in the auto workers' auxiliary photo). It kind of proves that all of this stuff really did happen which is beneficial when it seems kind of unreal that women wearing pants had been such a major controversy. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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== Dorothy Dunbar Bromley on Birth Control in the Depression ==<br />
It annoys me how it took an economic depression to make people realize how important birth control was. It would happen that way, people say how immoral it is until babies become an economic burden that they can't afford. I am glad, however, that they DID realize it was important though because the more children, the harsher the despression would've been. It is sad to see that the poorer people always were the ones having the most children, that is unfortunately the way it usually is.- Emely Amaya<br />
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I agree with Emely Amaya's comment on the studies regarding the high number of births among poor people during the Great Depression. I was sort of wondering and hoping that studies such as those were the reason behind the repeal of prohibitions against the dissemination of information regarding birth control by AMA doctors. --Justin Mattos<br />
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Isnt it still true today that despite the wide availability and knowledge of birth control, the families that can not afford to have a child still are the ones who end up having the most children?--Landon Davis<br />
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I have to ask the same question Landon does because wide availability and knowledge of birth control does not necessarily solve the problem. I'm not suggesting that the Depression did not increase hardships or awareness for birth control. I think that the problem is more complicated. Perhaps the reasons are embedded in culture, or it may have more to do with the subservient status of women to men. In many cases the man dictates the use of birth control. I've read articles that suggest that young women would rather risk pregnancy that lose a boyfriend. Birth control only works if both partners are willing to use it.--LisaM<br />
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When it takes a depression for people to finally realize that having lots of children is not a good idea it really only effects those that had the money to have children in the first place. The ones that cant afford to are still going to have them. The ones that limited children due to the depression were typically middle class families. It is sad, that it continues to be the families that cant afford children that are having such large numbers. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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A very interesting read. I'm almost surprised the "moral crusaders" of the time didn't just encourage an "abstinence only" program. History certainly does mimic itself. Was it me, or was there a "blame the victim" thing going on in Bromley's article underneath everything? The Catholic Church is still pushing the "safe period", or "rythm method." My wife and I now call that program the "go forth and multiply" deal. Been there, done that, DON'T WORK! - Phil N.<br />
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I think that the issue of birth control is still a very strong issue today. As others have pointed out the same groups of people are the ones that financially need it the most. But other than on college campuses I have never really heard of free contraception. Many forms of birth control, including most specifically designed for women to control the use of, are the most expensive and involve going to a doctor. Those who need birth control the most are usually not receiving adequate education and are often discouraged from any practice except abstinence. The statistics in this essay were very powerful and I think the increase in media availabilty made these statistics extremely effective. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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== Lydia Mendoza recalls her career in the Depression ==<br />
I loved the Lydia Mendoza recollection. Her modesty was overwhelming, but at the same time she was able to effectively describe how tough the depression was on families, and especially on minorities. Having to play in the plaza for two nights in a row just to make up the rent for the week had to have been difficult and you can really understand why her mother was hesitant about letting her travel to go on the radio show. If I were her mother I probably would have done the same thing -- her daughter was earning her quite a bit in the plaza so why change that, right? At the same time, I think it was wonderful that the manager found her a sponsor - it's kind of romanticized really and the way a great success story should start. I also liked how, by reading Lydia's piece, you could tell that women were still trying to establish themselves alongside men in the music world (and life in general.) "It was a very pretty sight and very special because we were women and very young..." Her discussion of the plaza being filled entirely with groups of men playing their instruments just emphasizes how all cultures dealt with a gender struggle. --Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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It makes be sad to read how greatly people struggled because of the Great Depression. I, like Kelly, enjoyed reading about Lydia Mendoza. I was moved by the since of "togetherness" her family had. Everyone in the family was involved in the musical group, all working together for survival. I suppose that tragedy and tough times bring people together. The move from Michigan to Texas took 3 months because they had to stop and perform for food and gas. Lydia Mendoza was modest and very sweet with her words. I found it interesting that Lydia's father gave up. He would not get up and to try to get work even when seeing Ignacio coming home with produce to eat. He was proving a point, but his family was starving.--Nikole Wellman<br />
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== P’ing Yu, Racism among white CA Clubwomen, 1937 ==<br />
<br />
An interesting point with this reading. It dutiful for club women to work for rights of African American women but not with them. The Clubwomen still wanted to choose their friends and the members of the clubs.-Nikole Wellman<br />
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== Louise Mitchell, Denounces the “Slave Markets” where Domestics are Hired in NYC, 1940 ==<br />
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It is so sad that so many young women had to stand on the street corners just to try to get work. I was surprised that domestic workers made up most of the country's job force, especially when it was a last resort job for women. Reading the piece about the domestic "slave markets" really showed how hard it was for women, especially African-American women, to get jobs. --Kellye Sorber<br />
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Not to diminish anyone's experience from the Great Depression, but trust me Kellye, everyone was dirt poor. The generation that just died off in my family spoke of the depression often. The women from this era used to embarrass me in public places by collecting all extra foodstuffs, fruits, etc. from open buffets and bars, or after famlily Holy Communion and birthday parties held in a public place. My Grandmother and Great Aunts COULDN'T STAND TO SEE ANYTHING WASTED. They remembered growing up with empty stomachs and no work for the parents and the children. - Phil N.</div>199.111.68.165https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_9_Questions/Comments328--Week 9 Questions/Comments2008-03-20T04:09:20Z<p>199.111.68.165: </p>
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<div>== "I Want You Women Up North to Know" by Tillie Olson ==<br />
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In "I Want You Women Up North to Know" by Tillie Olson I found this line hilarious " ...she says that he prays and dreams of a another world...a heaven (which he does not know was brought to earth in 1917 in Russia, by workers like him)"...hind-sight is 20/20 right?- Emely Amaya<br />
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I found this reading interesting but at the same time confusing. Tillie Olson is clearly attacking the women in the north who are buying the clothes that are being made, but its these women that are allowing the women she is writing about to have their jobs. Yes, their conditions are horrible and the pay is horrible, but thats not a reason to attack the other women I would think. I would also think that the depression, while it might have lessened in the Northern cities, was still affecting their lives, so her accusations seem to me to be unjustified.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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I found it interesting that Tillie Olson used a poem to express the conditions of the sweatships and garment workers. It is a very disturbing and graphic poem. A poem tends to be beautiful and lyrical but this really stands out because of how harsh it is in tone. It was really effective in creating the image of such a terrible life. -Kendall Haring<br />
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== Annelise Orleck, "Militant Housewives of the Depression" ==<br />
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I was amazed to learn how organized and militant housewives were during the Great Depression. Prior to reading this week's reading, I didn't know people were able to actually find constructive ways of regaining a semblance of their previous way of life during the Great Depression. --Justin Mattos<br />
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I LOVED this reading! I enjoyed seeing how women reacted to some of the hardships of the depression in a more aggressive way. I found it interesting that Orleck mentions that the women who were speaking out weren't doing so because they wanted the attention but because they wanted to be able to fulfill their duties as wives and mothers, which fits into the idea of what a woman was supposed to be doing, making their efforts more acceptable in society. I had no idea that they were able to accomplish so much or that the movement of housewives was so widespread across the U.S.! These I think are definitely ones who, if I was a mother during this period, I would want my children to respect and look up to because they were fighting for something they believed so strongly in (even though I'd prefer to be something more than a housewife). -Elizabeth Frank<br />
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This really was a fun article to read. I was very impressed at how these women managed to keep their life somewhat the same during the depression. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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I too thought this article was very interesting and empowering. The different tactics these housewives used to ban together and create change brought many interesting images to mind. I really like how Moser points out that these movements were " 'an education for women'". However it is quite upsetting that it took these circumstances for this education to occur and for Americans to make the connection of the value between producing and consuming. I wonder did these movements outlast the images and ideals brought to mind by the 1950's? -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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== All Eleanor Roosevelt readings ==<br />
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All of this week's readings about and created by Eleanor Roosevelt really confirmed history's seemingly high opinion of her. The fact that the Roosevelts' were able to constructively respond to all of their mail during the Great Depression is very admirable. --Justin Mattos<br />
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I thougth it was interesting that women actually took the time to write Eleanor Roosevelt about things that they desperately needed, like clothing and jobs for their husbands. Just thinking in today's world and if a depression happened now, I would think it pointless to write the first lady about what I desperately needed, just because I would think she for one probably would never even read the letter and two she probably wouldn't care much less help me. Yet so many women in the 1930's wrote her their depressing situations, I assume because they were just so desperate and no one else could help them so why couldn't the first lady. They probably thougtht too that Eleanor could influence her husband since he was the President to make him do something. Also article 5 and 6 in MP show that Eleanor did actually take recongnition of the problems during the depression and talked about the problems and spoke actively on many of the problems she saw.--Michelle M.<br />
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What I found interesting were the letters to the Roosevelt's and specifically Eleanor in both MAW and MPA. Like Michelle had said I wouldn't be writing to the first lady if there was a depression. Especially in today's society the letter would just get lost or thrown away. One of the letters did bother me a bit. I know it really shouldn't have but, the one about the little girl who wants roller blades.... to me its just so wrong. I know she is younger and doesn't understand what is going on, but it just really bugged me that she asked for roller blades when people are dieing of hunger, and are out of work and on the streets. Then there is this girl asking for roller blades because he friends are making fun of her. No matter what age you are things like that just bother me. Also wouldn't the parents maybe explain to their child that mommy and daddy are having a few problems financially? -- Amanda Taub<br />
'''(McClurken don't make fun of me to much in class, I like to be there when i am made fun of save a little for Tuesday).'''<br />
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In response to Amanda's comment - each person, depending on their age, sex or race values different things - to a twelve year old girl, being ostricised in school because her family could not afford a pair of skates seemed just as traumatizing to her as the woman who could not afford clothes for her baby. I know the difference in the degree of severity between these two requests may seem laughable to some, it just goes to show that the Depression was a reality for all. One common theme that I did notice amongst the various letters is the sense of pride Americans still had, despite their desperate conditions. Here is a discussion question: Do you think Americans today still hold that same sense of pride and dignity? ~Juliann Boyles<br />
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For me the most interesting letter to Eleanor Roosevelt was the second one. The woman thanked Roosevelt for her reply to the last letter, but then said she did not need charity just a loan, even sending in collateral she claimed was valuable. However, what bothers me here is not the fact that the first lady could not possibly begin to make individual loans to people, but the size of this woman's ego or pride. She claimed she gave up her rings which held the highest emotional value to her, this is not true. What holds the highest value in this woman's life is clearly her ability to save face, her pride. If she was truly desperate, and in such great need that she would ask a loan from a stranger, she should be willing to give up her greatest asset; that of her ego, and take the charity that the government has set up for her. I have noticed the same trend more subtly throughout the rest of the readings, what is causing this? Is it a few isolated cases or does this pride fit in with the overall atttidue of the day, or somehow into the middle class ideals we have talked so extensively about? --- Landon Davis<br />
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I think that pride can be considered a weakness. I could understand a child asking for something as trivial as skates, but the mother sending a shopping list to Eleanor Roosevelt was bothersome. During a time of extreme financial hardship this women focussed on the clothing of an infant. Then I thought that maybe this woman may not have been able to apply to the Welfare Association. In my interview with a senior woman, she mentioned how her mother during the depression found a way to feed the family and save money. She was suggesting aid from the government, which her husband refused. There was a prevailing attitude at the time that if you were working you were not poor, and therefore did not need the government's assistance. Is the act of asking for a baby's layette prompted by this mother's vanity. This woman had to have clothing from previous children, but she seemed intent on having a new set. Is the ability to dress a child, even during the worst of times, a measure of her ability to be a good mother?--LisaM <br />
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I found the reading of "American Women ASk Eleanor for Help" Interesting as well as heartbreaking. It amazed me to read that within a day Eleanor would have 5 to 8 thousand letters and she made a huge effort to either answer them herself or pass it on to the correct agency. It surprised me the things the ladies asked for varying from roller skates to a job for a husband. How was Roosevelt able to answer all of these letters and was she able to satisfy the needs and wants of most? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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"Eleanor Roosevelt Urges Better Understanding and Cooperation of Both White and Negro Races," <br />
In this reading, she is basically saying that in order to be respected, African Americans need to raise their standards of living. She says that everyone needs to work together to stop injustices.--Nikole Wellman<br />
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== Meridel Lesueur, "Despair of Unemployed Women" ==<br />
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Reading Meridel Lesueur's article really struck me. Just how starved the women were, and the endless sitting at the job bureau day after day. The description of some of their faces really made me feel a little sad. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I found this reading interesting because it showed that the middle class ideals, or what i guess could be described as middle class prejudice or maybe just denial in this case, still affected women even in this time of crisis. Where as before when the economy was good, women were not afforded the same opportunities as men (i.e. lower wages, lower glass ceilings, smaller scope of job opportunities), now in the depression women still arent afforded the same rights and opportunities as men (i.e. no flop houses, a cultural unwillingness to see women living in the parks, and charities only helping the deserving few). -- Landon Davis<br />
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Just the fact that citizens had so much trust in the Roosevelt's, particularly Eleanor, and that they actually did care about the American people, is very refreshing to think about in these jaded times. Phil N.<br />
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This piece really struck me - the despair, the utter hopelessness of these women's lives. But despite everything, many retained their pride, mending their stockings, hiding away in condemned apartments, refusing charity and public displays of poverty. When the author mentioned the one woman who finally broke, it made me think, most of these single women endured starvation and extreme poverty but continued to sit in that office daily waiting for a job that would never come - how strong they were. But somehow, many of these women made it through the Depression - somehow they survived, which really shows the strength of the human condition.~Juliann Boyles<br />
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This piece was so incredible because I got a true sense of the despair of life during the Depression. The images were so vivid: living in condemned apartments, Mrs. Grey, sitting every day at the employment bureau. It emphasized how these women struggled to support their families in such a hopeless time. -Kendall Haring<br />
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== Ann Marie Low's "The Dust Bowl" ==<br />
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Ann Marie Low's "The Dust Bowl" was intriguing to read. Just how much dust piled up and how much they had to wash to keep their dishes, clothes, and house clean was unreal. I had always been told that there was 'a lot of dust,' but this article really put it in perspective. How did the people manage to live in it? I know that it said many babies and elderly died in it, but how did people live in it? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I really like the piece titled Dust Bowl.Finding out the things these people had to go through. The excessive cleaning that occurs before anything, all the hours put into cleaning are such wasted hours. I never really thought of it like this, all this time spent on the cleaning could have been used for finding a job or getting more food. The one thing that did give me a little relief was that Ann Marie Low, the girl writing this had time for leisure, she was able to go out to the movies, that even through this she was able to maintain some social life. Even though sometimes housekeeping did get in the way she was able to do things for her self. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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Ignoring the fact of the endless dust, life for this family seemed to be much better, as Amanda said the girl seemed to have time for leisure, and the ham, eggs, and bread seem like a feast compared to the rations of crackers described in the earlier readings of women in the cities. Was this true for the majority of rural families compared with those in the cities? Or is this a rare case? As an afterthought, I still havent decided if I would rather starve or live in all that dust, both sound unpleasant.----Landon Davis<br />
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== Margaret Jarman Hagood's "The Life Cycle of a White Southern Farm Woman" ==<br />
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Margaret Jarman Hagood's "The Life Cycle of a White Southern Farm Woman" was so depressing! I was reading it and toward the end I had to stop and just stare at the book. I never realized that a baby that close to birth who was so active could just... die like that. 11 days before birth! I read it allowed to my husband and our friend who was visiting and they both stared at me and asked "Why are you reading something so depressing!?!?" Does those kinds of death still happen in America today? I mean, that close to birth? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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This article bothered me a bit. Like Ashley I was shocked about the death of her baby so close to its birth but Margaret Hagood seemed to be extremely petty to me. She was annoyed because one of her children wasn't as pretty as she hoped and she just seemed annoyed that she couldn't have all the material things that she wanted. I just found her annoying because she seemed to not be upset because of the hardship of the depression but because she was worried that her daughter and that she, herself, wouldn't be viewed as pretty.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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== Genora Johnson Dollinger, "Women and Labor Militancy" ==<br />
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Dollinger's essay on "Women and Labor Militancy" was interesting. I I had no idea some women took it so far and seriously in these union groups. Sure we've learned how they take a militant approuch, but the lady in this reading was beyond that. What I thought was so interesting about her was how she used her gender against the cops in order to get where and what she wanted. She knew as a women that the cops would not shoot her in the back like they would a man, and therefore marching herself right in there on these strikes helping to defend these men, as well as using a type of reverse psychology on the cops to try and get them to see their fight. Pretty smart. On top of that she is like, oh by the way I had TB while I was doing all of this. She had some guts. She had a lot of women back her up on these strikes and even though the cops did not shoot them like they may have done to men I wonder if any got arrested at least?--Michelle M.<br />
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Dollinger wrote about "Women and Labor Militancy" in the 1930's. Women formed the Emergency Brigade as their form of activism, which at the time was very appreciated by the men it was helping. However, as women's roles in these positions became less necessary and demands were being met, their roles became less necessary. People quickly reverted back to their previous expectations and as it states on page 170 men began saying, "Well, you women did a wonderful job, but now your duty is back there getting those kids in school, getting the wash done, and regular meals again…" Though the women were helpful for that time, does it really show progress for women and their increasingly public roles if it can disappear as quickly as it can emerge? I think it shows how easily the situation of women can change within certain societal conditions, how fragile progress can be, and how easily it is to revert back to the default. The challenge then becomes not how to be more active and make progress at a certain time or under certain circumstances, but how to use all of these collectively to change the default. –Jessica Kilday<br />
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I found it interesting to read the account of a woman raised in Flint Michigan and working with tue unions. Not only was I raised an hour or so south of Flint but both of my grandparents worked for the UAW during the depression. It's interesting to read what these women went through because its not something my grandparents talk about often. -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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== Carlotta Martin's "A Mexican-American Childhood during the Depression" ==<br />
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In "A Mexican-American Childhood during the Depression" Carlotta Martin discusses what is like growing up in the barrio and how difficult life was during the Great Depression. She mentions that it was more common for children to be raised by their grandparents. Would this be in the sense that was it common for grandparents to live in the same households as their children and other extended family and for them to serve as we would see babysitters today? Or did the grandparents take their grandchildren, live separately, and give both parents a chance to work. Was this common within other ethnic groups or social classes as well? Or did it simply serve as an opportunity for the children to get an education as opposed to working to help their struggling families during the depression? –Jessica Kilday<br />
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== Photo Essay ==<br />
Personally, I loved the Photo essay. I think that photographs are a really interesting way to show how things have changed from one era to the next and the pictures in this week's reading did just that. Seeing women in pants and with shorter hair on almost every girl was a neat thing to see because this had recently become a new fad. The photos are also a great way to visualize what we were talking about in class on Tuesday, including women working in men's jobs while they went off to war (like in the aviation plant photo) and joining and supporting unions (like in the auto workers' auxiliary photo). It kind of proves that all of this stuff really did happen which is beneficial when it seems kind of unreal that women wearing pants had been such a major controversy. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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== Dorothy Dunbar Bromley on Birth Control in the Depression ==<br />
It annoys me how it took an economic depression to make people realize how important birth control was. It would happen that way, people say how immoral it is until babies become an economic burden that they can't afford. I am glad, however, that they DID realize it was important though because the more children, the harsher the despression would've been. It is sad to see that the poorer people always were the ones having the most children, that is unfortunately the way it usually is.- Emely Amaya<br />
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I agree with Emely Amaya's comment on the studies regarding the high number of births among poor people during the Great Depression. I was sort of wondering and hoping that studies such as those were the reason behind the repeal of prohibitions against the dissemination of information regarding birth control by AMA doctors. --Justin Mattos<br />
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Isnt it still true today that despite the wide availability and knowledge of birth control, the families that can not afford to have a child still are the ones who end up having the most children?--Landon Davis<br />
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I have to ask the same question Landon does because wide availability and knowledge of birth control does not necessarily solve the problem. I'm not suggesting that the Depression did not increase hardships or awareness for birth control. I think that the problem is more complicated. Perhaps the reasons are embedded in culture, or it may have more to do with the subservient status of women to men. In many cases the man dictates the use of birth control. I've read articles that suggest that young women would rather risk pregnancy that lose a boyfriend. Birth control only works if both partners are willing to use it.--LisaM<br />
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When it takes a depression for people to finally realize that having lots of children is not a good idea it really only effects those that had the money to have children in the first place. The ones that cant afford to are still going to have them. The ones that limited children due to the depression were typically middle class families. It is sad, that it continues to be the families that cant afford children that are having such large numbers. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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A very interesting read. I'm almost surprised the "moral crusaders" of the time didn't just encourage an "abstinence only" program. History certainly does mimic itself. Was it me, or was there a "blame the victim" thing going on in Bromley's article underneath everything? The Catholic Church is still pushing the "safe period", or "rythm method." My wife and I now call that program the "go forth and multiply" deal. Been there, done that, DON'T WORK! - Phil N.<br />
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== Lydia Mendoza recalls her career in the Depression ==<br />
I loved the Lydia Mendoza recollection. Her modesty was overwhelming, but at the same time she was able to effectively describe how tough the depression was on families, and especially on minorities. Having to play in the plaza for two nights in a row just to make up the rent for the week had to have been difficult and you can really understand why her mother was hesitant about letting her travel to go on the radio show. If I were her mother I probably would have done the same thing -- her daughter was earning her quite a bit in the plaza so why change that, right? At the same time, I think it was wonderful that the manager found her a sponsor - it's kind of romanticized really and the way a great success story should start. I also liked how, by reading Lydia's piece, you could tell that women were still trying to establish themselves alongside men in the music world (and life in general.) "It was a very pretty sight and very special because we were women and very young..." Her discussion of the plaza being filled entirely with groups of men playing their instruments just emphasizes how all cultures dealt with a gender struggle. --Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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It makes be sad to read how greatly people struggled because of the Great Depression. I, like Kelly, enjoyed reading about Lydia Mendoza. I was moved by the since of "togetherness" her family had. Everyone in the family was involved in the musical group, all working together for survival. I suppose that tragedy and tough times bring people together. The move from Michigan to Texas took 3 months because they had to stop and perform for food and gas. Lydia Mendoza was modest and very sweet with her words. I found it interesting that Lydia's father gave up. He would not get up and to try to get work even when seeing Ignacio coming home with produce to eat. He was proving a point, but his family was starving.--Nikole Wellman<br />
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== P’ing Yu, Racism among white CA Clubwomen, 1937 ==<br />
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An interesting point with this reading. It dutiful for club women to work for rights of African American women but not with them. The Clubwomen still wanted to choose their friends and the members of the clubs.-Nikole Wellman<br />
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== Louise Mitchell, Denounces the “Slave Markets” where Domestics are Hired in NYC, 1940 ==<br />
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It is so sad that so many young women had to stand on the street corners just to try to get work. I was surprised that domestic workers made up most of the country's job force, especially when it was a last resort job for women. Reading the piece about the domestic "slave markets" really showed how hard it was for women, especially African-American women, to get jobs. --Kellye Sorber<br />
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Not to diminish anyone's experience from the Great Depression, but trust me Kellye, everyone was dirt poor. The generation that just died off in my family spoke of the depression often. The women from this era used to embarrass me in public places by collecting all extra foodstuffs, fruits, etc. from open buffets and bars, or after famlily Holy Communion and birthday parties held in a public place. My Grandmother and Great Aunts COULDN'T STAND TO SEE ANYTHING WASTED. They remembered growing up with empty stomachs and no work for the parents and the children. - Phil N.</div>199.111.68.165https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_8_Questions/Comments328--Week 8 Questions/Comments2008-03-13T03:43:01Z<p>199.111.68.165: /* Kennedy's "'But We Would Never Talk about it': The Structures of Lesbian Discretion in South Dakota, 1928-1933" */</p>
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<div>THE ONLINE READING IS LOCATED HERE: [http://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/docs/MP-Reading.pdf Week 8 Reading]<br />
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== Kennedy's "'But We Would Never Talk about it': The Structures of Lesbian Discretion in South Dakota, 1928-1933" ==<br />
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In this week's reading of "'But We Would Never Talk about it': The Structures of Lesbian Discretion in South Dakota, 1928-1933" by Elizabeth Lapovsky Kennedy, the idea that struck me the deepest was the thought that the now extinct sensibility that existed during the first half of the twentieth century actually helped a minority people. Having unofficial social mores and a respect for others' privacy allowed for lesbians who were white to live productive lives as long as they lived according to same social standards that ruled the lives of heterosexual women. This custom appears to have created a type of equality that may or may not exist today. Given the fact that the majority of the things that many homosexual couples are fighting for today did not yet exist for heterosexual couples, it would seem as if during this point in time, lesbianism was treated as an extreme eccentricity that should be controlled out of respect for one's neighbors. --Justin Mattos<br />
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I did not find it as surprising that is was so possible for Julia Boyer Reinstein's family to accept her lesbianism. While I am sure that her mother and father would have preferred to have a son-in-law, that the father enjoyed not having to entertain potential male suitors and having someone who would cover up his extramaterial affairs should not be overlooked. In a certain sense, I think what made her lesbianism easier to accept than if Julia Boyer Reinstein had been a homosexual male was that the society in which she lived was patriarchal and thus the desires of the father won out over the desires of the mother, and her father really did not care whether she enjoyed a heterosexual marriage or not. --Justin Mattos<br />
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So then does the tying of sexuality with politics and identity mischaracterize people and their politics, concerns, and histories? --Justin Mattos<br />
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After reading "But we would never talk about it" I didn't feel surprised about any of it. Being a lesbian back then was not defined as it was today. It was common for women to confide in each other and sleep in the same bed and have an intimate relationship. However, a lot of people did not know what was really going on behind closed doors, which I feel is a reason why no one every talked about it. The only thing that did surprise me was that her parents were ok with it all. There is a passage that talks about how her mother would make a comment about how she wasn't with this one boy, but in the end her being a lesbian didn't bother her, she was actually very polite to Dorothy. In Julia's father's case, it didn't surprise me so much after there were comments made that he could have all of her attention. He didn't need to entertain possible son - in- laws, however I also feel like he used Julia because she was gay. By giving Julia his consent and accepting her it keep their relationship close, however he might of done this because it covered up all of his affairs. My question was did Julia ever see her father and her relationship this way, or was she just happy that her father accepted her? -- Amanda Taub<br />
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The second part that I thought was the most interesting was her encounter with Amelia Earhart. It shows how cautious girls were towards other girls. I feel that these women were so unsure about themselves that they really had to question others more. Especially since this was one of her earlier encounters, it shows that in the beginning Julia was very timid about her sexuality. Since she was shy about her self, she wasn't going to go out and put the moves on every girl, especially not Earhart. But as she gets older her "sense" gets stronger, through all the trips she took with her father. She could tell which woman was the "odd" one of the bunch, I also feel that over the years other women started to feel a little more comfortable with being gay and showing it a little more. Which made it easier for women like Julia to point out the "odd" girl. My only question was were there women like today who went through these phases of lesbians and then just turned straight and marry? Or was it because society was starting to see lesbians for what they were and women felt pressured to become straight live the way society wants them to? -- Amanda Taub<br />
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Kennedy uses the case of Julia to discuss the discretion of lesbianism in the early 1900’s. There were, however, many other aspects to Julia’s identity than just her sexuality. This is pointed on page 415, when Kennedy states “she came into her womanhood as a lesbian, as a college student, as the daughter of a father who was prominent citizen and business owner, and as the daughter of a mother who was strongly independent yet part of an established small-town protestant family.” Given this, the discretion of Julia’s sexuality may have been because it would have been a trait that overshadowed the others; it may have become her only identifying factor in the public eye as opposed to just one of many. Could there have been any other traits during this time that people felt the need to cover-up, other than sexuality? And how true is this still today? --Jessica Kilday<br />
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Lesbianism wasn’t something that could be discriminated against publicly; this is in contrast to other aspects of one’s identity such as gender or race, which could once have been discriminated against legally. Yet Julia still feared that if she was obvious about how she felt then she would not be able to receive all the benefits and privileges of her class. Which would be harder to deal with, discrimination by law or discrimination by society? --Jessica Kilday<br />
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I would be afraid that anything that was considered not "normal" would be discriminated against. Just because it wasn't something typically a reason to discriminate against someone doesn't mean that people wont. Most people don't like what they don't understand. --Kellye Sorber <br />
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All I have to say is, wow. I know there are still a lot of problems with accepting lesbianism today, but to read that a father accepted it and used it to his advantage was incredibly. I feel that even lesbianism today is kept quite because most people seem not to always accept it, however not as much as the 1920s and 1930s. There are gay rights movements and things like ‘gay day’ at theme or amusement parks, which to me shouts “we accept all people of sexual preferences.” That could also just be a money marketing scam… However, I really did enjoy this piece by Elizabeth Kennedy because going through the public school system I had friends that I knew were lesbians, but we never talked about it, not even when they would have a break up with their girlfriend. If there was a break-up we would take the friend for ice-cream or something, but nothing was ever said about the situation. –Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I really enjoyed reading "But We Would Never Talk About It." However, I was not at all surprised about the fact that these women did not talk about their sexual preferences and experiences with other women or their parents, mostly because I still have the impression that while during this time period it was becoming more acceptable for sex to be discusses it still wasn't really done. And since sex in general wasn't talked about, why would a varying preference be talked about? Also while I found it amazing that her mother and father supported her and were ok with her sexual choice, I was also disgusted by the fact the father would use that to his advantage so he could continue his extramarital affairs! I do have to wonder, was she really ok with covering for her dad in these instances, or did she have any resentment towards him for using her in this way and if her nonchalant attitude towards it was because it was simply how she dealt with those feelings?- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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In Unequal Sisters, I found the quote "You don't know if someone is a lesbian unless you've slept with her" to be interesting. I'm not surprised that women who were lesbians didn't discuss their sexuality openly but why was it started that way? Besides religious aspects, where did the term lesbian or gay gain its perceived connotation? I feel like it was only more recently that males and females who were gay felt safe in taking pride of their sexuality. -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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I thought it was creepy reading Julia's story and how her father thought of her daughter as the "apple of his eye". It was weird to me that he subconsciously made a deal with her not to exploit her lesbian affairs as long as she kept quiet about his extramarital activities. Was this just one account or a more "normal" occurrence at the time? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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I thought all the reading for this week were very interesting. I really like the "But We Never Talk about It" article by Elizabeth Kennedy. I thought the story about Julia meeting Amelia Earhart was fascinating. It is the first story we have about a famous woman who was a lesbian and managed to not let that knowledge affect her life or hinder her attempts at greatness. - Christine W.<br />
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I found the question that the author, Elizabeth Kennedy, posed at the beginning of the article was an interesting one: "Is discretion always oppressive?" (410) I was just beginning to read the article when I somehow got onto the topic of what I was reading with a friend of mine. (Note that this friend is friends with many homosexuals and has rather strong opinions on the subject of homosexuality and 'queer culture'). I had said something about the fact that I found it interesting but not surprising that Julia Boyer Reinstein would "never talk about it" and enjoyed having her private life private. I immediately received a lecture about "imposed silence" and the societal values that imposed it. That lecture made me think that too many people view lesbianism through the lens of the liberation movement. The author herself admits to it (see footnote #6 in the article). The reason this article was so interesting is that it takes into account the time period... and doesn't judge Boyer Reinstein from a modern standpoint. The reason that she and so many others were able to live fulfilling and discrete lives as lesbians was because as was noted by Elsa Gidlow “it did seem that in those days civilized persons respected one another’s privacies” (422). Everyone was circumspect about their private lives, homo- or hetero-sexual. - Sarah H<br />
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Julia's story seems so foreign in today's "open" society. Now that sexuality is openly discussed, sexual orientation seems to be a much bigger, public concern. Although Julia had to keep her affairs private, she did not have to "reveal" and openly discuss her sexuality publicly as many women today must do. The former seems a more comfortable situation. But I do wonder when Julia was with her lesbian friends if there was an "elephant in the room" that they wanted but feared to openly acknowledge? -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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== Dr. Carlton C. Frederick on Nymphomania, 1907 ==<br />
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I pity the most definitely unsatisfied woman married to that Dr. Carlton C. Frederick! His unqualified theories on woman were as sexist as Freud's of that same time period (the grotesque double standard was very popular then)! This article compared to the survey's of Dr. Mosher were so starkly different, I wonder what kind of effect the controversy had over the general population-and more importantly over the general female population? His assertive views on Nymphomaniacs has actually made me question the sexism based around that "disorder"-I would be interested in further study of the history of Nymphomania as recognized by physicians and society. Also in consideration of mental disorders: this article is part of the great slew of material that prolonged the accepted myth that homosexuality is a mental illness well into the early 70s in American. I don't know how doctors could do it back then- to use unsubstantiated views as evidence for such sexist publications! ~~Jackie Reed<br />
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I agree with Jackie that Dr. Frederick was a wack job! Where on earth did he get his information from. It really makes you wonder how many doctors in those days actually did any kind of research or if they were simply stuck on a certain view of women and because they were a doctor they felt that gave them authority and validation to what their theory on the female and sex was.--Michelle M.<br />
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I agree with Jackie about the Dr. Frederick essay. My question is: Was Frederick saying that nymphomania in women, was when they acheived the same level of sexuality and deisre that men had? Or was it on some completely different level? Also I found it disturbing, and almost funny how he so easily bridged a gap between masturbation and pedophelia.----Landon Davis<br />
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I flat out laughed when I read the beginning of "The Manifestations of Nymphomania." What I thought was so interesting about this reading, besides the ideology that if women liked sex as much as men the world would be one giant brothel, was that this was documented at the turn of the century. I think it's a good example of the mentality some conservatives were trying to hold on to as the "new woman" burst onto the scene. I just didn't really understand his distinction between "insane" and the "not insane." Were the insane and mildly insane nymphomaniacs the ones that went into bars and started flirting with men, etc? -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I found Carlton C. Fredericks article amusing at the same time it was irritating. It was amusing to me because of the way he approached the subject yet irritating because of its sexism. He seemed to imply that only insane or mildly insane women would likely turn to Nymphomania. I also find it interesting that he said women turned to other women to achieve satisfaction, wouldn't it then follow the logical path of his thought that to rectify this husbands should focus on more than just their sexual pleasure?(I'm not saying I agree with his thought process). Also, is he saying that men can't have nymphomania and that its an aliment strictly suffered by women?- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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== Mosher Survey, 1892-1913 ==<br />
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There were several parts of the reading off the wiki that fit in perfectly with the companionate marriage we discussed in class today. Most noticeably the second passage from extracts from the Mosher Survey, respondent 10 was qouted as "I think for man and woman married from love, it may be used temperately, as one of the highest manifestations of love." This passage exemplifies the break from the repressive victorian era ideals of marriage, that women should not enjoy sex, and that it should be used primarily for reproduction. Another example was the second letter to Sanger, the man was asking for details of contraception, not for (entirely) selfish reasons, he seemed genuinely concerned about his wife's welfare and happiness. ----Landon Davis<br />
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I was surprised after reading the "Extracts from the Mosher Survey, 1892-1913" because I did not realize that it seemed that most women did not have knowledge of sexual physiology before marriage. I'm guessing most of the men knew though. I think the 'birds and the bees' was mostly explained by my teachers when I was in 4th or 5th grade, or around age 9 or 10. Times have changed considerably, but I wonder how many U.S. females are raised in such a way still that they do not know much about it. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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So, as everyone knows, I hate the idea of using Lysol as a means of contraception. As a result, reading the one interview with Respondent 44 made me cringe. Bichloride? Really? I'm assuming they used the mercury compound since I saw another interviewee discuss it and I almost fell over. That stuff is dangerous so it astounded me that it had "no effect" as she stated. It never ceases to amaze me the lengths to which people would go to prevent pregnancies in the early 20th century. It was interesting to read all of the interviews though and compare and contrast them. The differences were slight because the years were relatively close together, but the shifts in belief about the purposes of intercourse emphasized that shift from a "sex is for male pleasure and reproduction only" world to a "women can like it too" sort of atmosphere. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I agree with Kelly, it is crazy what women will do to prevent pregnancy. How could you put yourself in danger just so you dont have children. I know that childbirth was considered not always safe but really, why would you do something even worse to yourself? I too was impressed by the change in the interviews, things have to progress. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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After reading the respondents from Mosher I was surprised to find out how many women really knew nothing about sex once they were married. I knew that it was somthing not talked about, but to be a women just married and not knowing what sex even was had to be scary and maybe even confusing to them. Did the husbands know though? What I also thought was interesting about their resoponses was that those who did try some kind of means to prevent pregnancy, when asked if their health was effected they all said no. The things they used didn't sound like very safe things, but what I've come to realize by these readings this week is that women seemed to be desperate for anything to have some kind of control over conception, but were the men just as desperate in hopes that something would emerge to prevent pregnancy once there were so many children already in the family too?--Michelle M.<br />
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I also found the readings from the Wiki very interesting! I was slightly shocked at some of the details in the "Extracts from the Mosher survey: 1892-1913". Mostly I was surprised at how long some of these couples waited before they had sex after marrying! There was one woman who said that their first time having sex was 5 months after they were married! I found this surprising because most married couples are simply expected to do that on their wedding night. And like Kelly I was shocked at the items they used to attempt to control pregnancies and then claimed that they had no physical affect on them when it should have.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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The fact that so many of us are astounded at the information in the Mosher surveys is an indicator at how far we have come. In my recent interview with two 81 year old women, it revealed that the discussion of sex was never discussed between the mothers and daughters. One of the women became a nurse after high school and received information on the topic in her anatomy class.--LisaM <br />
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I found "Extracts from the Mosher Survey, 1892-1913" humorous. Most of these women did not know much about the female body and not anything about the male reproduction system. Most pregnancy were an accident with a couple of exceptions. The usual types of birth control were used with no noted side effects. I think all the women said that reproduction was the main reason for sexual intercourse while the last interview , held in 1913, said that sex was uplifting like music. The number of times per week/month these women had intercourse varied. Would they have told the truth? -Nikole Wellman<br />
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In the document “Extracts form the Mosher Survey.” it didn’t surprise me to hear that most women didn’t know much about men physiology. Sex was not an open topic to talk about. Women then were taught to wait till marriage and that intercourse was only meant to please men and have children. –Ashley Scutari<br />
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== Letters to Margaret Sanger, 1920s ==<br />
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After reading the online reading something that stuck out to me the most was the letters to Margaret Sanger. I found it surprising that men and women were actually staying away from their spouses because they don't want anymore children. Because birth control was not offered to women, and especially women who lived in rural areas, it was ruining marriages. In letter number 4 the wife was actually thinking about their financial stability knowing they can not have another child and all the husband wants is sex not really caring about the situation. This whole concept of the companion family caused higher expectations, however in these letters the women and or men mention that they love their spouse dearly but because they don't want to reproduce tears them apart. If there was such a big problem with divorce rates increasing and infidelity then why wasn't this taken into account? Is it because people are just to afraid to talk about sex? -- Amanda Taub<br />
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When reading the letters to Margaret Sanger about birth control I kind of asked the same question Amanda did on why wasn't it taken into account that divorce rates increasing was really possibly due to infidelity which was essentially caused by fear of having sex in result of having children. Therefore birth control would really possibly save marriage, however I don't think it is because people were afraid to talk about sex even though it wasn't talked about but, instead maybe what they really wanted was to be able to have sex freely without the worry of getting pregnant, and birth control would allow a married couple to have control over how many children they wanted. Maybe they thought, this thought was a scary or selfish thing to even think or want becasue for so long people just had children, but because the world was changing there was just no need for families with 7 to 10 children anymore.--Michelle M. <br />
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The letters to Margaret Sanger about the need for birth control were extremely interesting. I thought it was strange how women assumed they would just magically know how to not have children once they were married. Also, I wondered if married couples not having sex so as to not have any more children led to affairs outside the marriage. Clearly, there was no birth control for any type of sexual relationship but I get the feeling that these people writing in thought that extramarital affairs couldn’t result in children. What did prostitutes do for birth control? – Cat Debelius<br />
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Cat had a great point. I read once that prostitutes would take a "potion" to prevent pregnancy. Basically the same method as other women.... Pessaries, maybe abortion. -- Nikole Wellman<br />
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The people who wrote these letters sound so desperate. They lived in a time where the companionate marriage seemed to burden the women with an emotional and economic dilemma; namely, the lack of intimate relations with their spouse could inhibit or destroy their marriage, but so could the economic and physical burdens that resulted from additional children. When I read these letters, I wondered how many women were pushed to self aborting because of no other remedy.--LisaM <br />
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I agree with Amanda, Michelle and Cat. I found the letters to Margaret Sanger Morose. All the letters were from married men or women wanting to prevent conception. Societies views and laws regarding birth control was ruining relationships and marriages. I do feel compassion towards the men writing to Sanger about their wives health. Would this be a compassionate marriage? -- Nikole Wellman<br />
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In “Letters to Margaret Sanger, Birth-Control Advocate,” I agree with the third letter from a mother of six children. She should be allowed to use birth control for a few reasons. Financially she cannot afford to have another child, she doesn’t have anymore time to take care of more children, and birth control will help save her marriage. Her husband would rather stay away from her to avoid having another child. –Ashley Scutari <br />
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== Blanchard and Manasses discuss Ideals and Problems of Modern Marriage, 1930 ==<br />
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I agree with Landon and also saw many parallels between the discussion of the companionate family in class and also in society today. Blanchard and Manasses' discussion of courtship points out that men and women were able to "become intimately acquainted" before marriage and discuss openly and equally about their opinions of married life before they were married. The notion that men and women must be compatible personalities, working together as partners in all areas demonstrates the new ideal. Yet there are still hidden facets of Victorian ideals engrained into the companionate marriage. The "lurking fear that she may seem too passionate, and her husband may suspect what still seems to her dreadful secret, she cannot give herself up to free enjoyment of his love," still alludes to the idea that women are not supposed to enjoy sex and when they do there is something morally wrong with them. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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I also saw a parallel between Blanchard and Manasses' discussion and society's ideals today. Sex education, and the lack thereof, is still a problem. Many schools still strictly follow an abstinence only program and students are left uneducated about where to go for family planning options. In many cases women still grow up experiencing "conditioned responses toward sex" in which parents have punished any form of sexual expression. The experiences of women described in this reading (anxiety, embarressment, guilt) caused by society's ideals still strongly exist. Their discussion was a liberal view and today this view would be considered conservative but how much have the ideals of women's sexuality changed from the early 20th century? -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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The discussion of “modern marriage” was really interesting to me. I find it horrifying that ideals of companionship didn’t exist before this time. Even in this essay, there is a part where Phyllis Blanchard and Carolyn Manassas question what a companion marriage may mean for the future once sexual desire fades. I just found it interesting that eve they are not true believers in companionship. – Cat Debelius<br />
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== Malcom Bissell on birth control activism in PA, 1925 ==<br />
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Malcom Bissell’s essay on birth control discusses how small group meetings in people’s home might be the most effect way of disseminating birth control information. I think this is very telling of society’s views at the time. Clearly, birth control was wanted and necessary, but there was such a social stigma and controversy over using it that people didn’t want to be publicly seen as seeking out information. – Cat Debelius<br />
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Kind of going off of what Cat said, I was kind of impressed with the flow of communication that had been started by the time of this document. The one comment that really struck me was, "There are abundant signs that the public is ready to give its support to Birth Control." It shows how much has changed since the Victorian era we had spent so much time on but it is also kind of a loaded statement. It's pretty dangerous to make such a statement in a society that still clearly had such strong opposition to contraceptive methods which are apparent to us by all the various documents we've read for this week. Nonetheless, I'm impressed he had the audacity to make such a statement and enforce such a movement towards providing birth control to women (and their husbands of course). -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I also thought the article "Breaking the Silence" by Yolanda Leyva was interesting. It was surprising to me that the Catholic Church was one place where the lesbian women could be themselves. I would have though that the church would have severely disapproved of such behavior. Did they just not know that by segregating the women they were encouraging this behavior or were the women just using the circumstances to their advantage? - Christine Wuebker</div>199.111.68.165https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_8_Questions/Comments328--Week 8 Questions/Comments2008-03-13T03:41:54Z<p>199.111.68.165: </p>
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<div>THE ONLINE READING IS LOCATED HERE: [http://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/docs/MP-Reading.pdf Week 8 Reading]<br />
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== Kennedy's "'But We Would Never Talk about it': The Structures of Lesbian Discretion in South Dakota, 1928-1933" ==<br />
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In this week's reading of "'But We Would Never Talk about it': The Structures of Lesbian Discretion in South Dakota, 1928-1933" by Elizabeth Lapovsky Kennedy, the idea that struck me the deepest was the thought that the now extinct sensibility that existed during the first half of the twentieth century actually helped a minority people. Having unofficial social mores and a respect for others' privacy allowed for lesbians who were white to live productive lives as long as they lived according to same social standards that ruled the lives of heterosexual women. This custom appears to have created a type of equality that may or may not exist today. Given the fact that the majority of the things that many homosexual couples are fighting for today did not yet exist for heterosexual couples, it would seem as if during this point in time, lesbianism was treated as an extreme eccentricity that should be controlled out of respect for one's neighbors. --Justin Mattos<br />
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I did not find it as surprising that is was so possible for Julia Boyer Reinstein's family to accept her lesbianism. While I am sure that her mother and father would have preferred to have a son-in-law, that the father enjoyed not having to entertain potential male suitors and having someone who would cover up his extramaterial affairs should not be overlooked. In a certain sense, I think what made her lesbianism easier to accept than if Julia Boyer Reinstein had been a homosexual male was that the society in which she lived was patriarchal and thus the desires of the father won out over the desires of the mother, and her father really did not care whether she enjoyed a heterosexual marriage or not. --Justin Mattos<br />
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So then does the tying of sexuality with politics and identity mischaracterize people and their politics, concerns, and histories? --Justin Mattos<br />
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After reading "But we would never talk about it" I didn't feel surprised about any of it. Being a lesbian back then was not defined as it was today. It was common for women to confide in each other and sleep in the same bed and have an intimate relationship. However, a lot of people did not know what was really going on behind closed doors, which I feel is a reason why no one every talked about it. The only thing that did surprise me was that her parents were ok with it all. There is a passage that talks about how her mother would make a comment about how she wasn't with this one boy, but in the end her being a lesbian didn't bother her, she was actually very polite to Dorothy. In Julia's father's case, it didn't surprise me so much after there were comments made that he could have all of her attention. He didn't need to entertain possible son - in- laws, however I also feel like he used Julia because she was gay. By giving Julia his consent and accepting her it keep their relationship close, however he might of done this because it covered up all of his affairs. My question was did Julia ever see her father and her relationship this way, or was she just happy that her father accepted her? -- Amanda Taub<br />
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The second part that I thought was the most interesting was her encounter with Amelia Earhart. It shows how cautious girls were towards other girls. I feel that these women were so unsure about themselves that they really had to question others more. Especially since this was one of her earlier encounters, it shows that in the beginning Julia was very timid about her sexuality. Since she was shy about her self, she wasn't going to go out and put the moves on every girl, especially not Earhart. But as she gets older her "sense" gets stronger, through all the trips she took with her father. She could tell which woman was the "odd" one of the bunch, I also feel that over the years other women started to feel a little more comfortable with being gay and showing it a little more. Which made it easier for women like Julia to point out the "odd" girl. My only question was were there women like today who went through these phases of lesbians and then just turned straight and marry? Or was it because society was starting to see lesbians for what they were and women felt pressured to become straight live the way society wants them to? -- Amanda Taub<br />
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Kennedy uses the case of Julia to discuss the discretion of lesbianism in the early 1900’s. There were, however, many other aspects to Julia’s identity than just her sexuality. This is pointed on page 415, when Kennedy states “she came into her womanhood as a lesbian, as a college student, as the daughter of a father who was prominent citizen and business owner, and as the daughter of a mother who was strongly independent yet part of an established small-town protestant family.” Given this, the discretion of Julia’s sexuality may have been because it would have been a trait that overshadowed the others; it may have become her only identifying factor in the public eye as opposed to just one of many. Could there have been any other traits during this time that people felt the need to cover-up, other than sexuality? And how true is this still today? --Jessica Kilday<br />
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Lesbianism wasn’t something that could be discriminated against publicly; this is in contrast to other aspects of one’s identity such as gender or race, which could once have been discriminated against legally. Yet Julia still feared that if she was obvious about how she felt then she would not be able to receive all the benefits and privileges of her class. Which would be harder to deal with, discrimination by law or discrimination by society? --Jessica Kilday<br />
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I would be afraid that anything that was considered not "normal" would be discriminated against. Just because it wasn't something typically a reason to discriminate against someone doesn't mean that people wont. Most people don't like what they don't understand. --Kellye Sorber <br />
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All I have to say is, wow. I know there are still a lot of problems with accepting lesbianism today, but to read that a father accepted it and used it to his advantage was incredibly. I feel that even lesbianism today is kept quite because most people seem not to always accept it, however not as much as the 1920s and 1930s. There are gay rights movements and things like ‘gay day’ at theme or amusement parks, which to me shouts “we accept all people of sexual preferences.” That could also just be a money marketing scam… However, I really did enjoy this piece by Elizabeth Kennedy because going through the public school system I had friends that I knew were lesbians, but we never talked about it, not even when they would have a break up with their girlfriend. If there was a break-up we would take the friend for ice-cream or something, but nothing was ever said about the situation. –Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I really enjoyed reading "But We Would Never Talk About It." However, I was not at all surprised about the fact that these women did not talk about their sexual preferences and experiences with other women or their parents, mostly because I still have the impression that while during this time period it was becoming more acceptable for sex to be discusses it still wasn't really done. And since sex in general wasn't talked about, why would a varying preference be talked about? Also while I found it amazing that her mother and father supported her and were ok with her sexual choice, I was also disgusted by the fact the father would use that to his advantage so he could continue his extramarital affairs! I do have to wonder, was she really ok with covering for her dad in these instances, or did she have any resentment towards him for using her in this way and if her nonchalant attitude towards it was because it was simply how she dealt with those feelings?- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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In Unequal Sisters, I found the quote "You don't know if someone is a lesbian unless you've slept with her" to be interesting. I'm not surprised that women who were lesbians didn't discuss their sexuality openly but why was it started that way? Besides religious aspects, where did the term lesbian or gay gain its perceived connotation? I feel like it was only more recently that males and females who were gay felt safe in taking pride of their sexuality. -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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I thought it was creepy reading Julia's story and how her father thought of her daughter as the "apple of his eye". It was weird to me that he subconsciously made a deal with her not to exploit her lesbian affairs as long as she kept quiet about his extramarital activities. Was this just one account or a more "normal" occurrence at the time? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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I thought all the reading for this week were very interesting. I really like the "But We Never Talk about It" article by Elizabeth Kennedy. I thought the story about Julia meeting Amelia Earhart was fascinating. It is the first story we have about a famous woman who was a lesbian and managed to not let that knowledge affect her life or hinder her attempts at greatness. - Christine W.<br />
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I found the question that the author, Elizabeth Kennedy, posed at the beginning of the article was an interesting one: "Is discretion always oppressive?" (410) I was just beginning to read the article when I somehow got onto the topic of what I was reading with a friend of mine. (Note that this friend is friends with many homosexuals and has rather strong opinions on the subject of homosexuality and 'queer culture'). I had said something about the fact that I found it interesting but not surprising that Julia Boyer Reinstein would "never talk about it" and enjoyed having her private life private. I immediately received a lecture about "imposed silence" and the societal values that imposed it. That lecture made me think that too many people view lesbianism through the lens of the liberation movement. The author herself admits to it (see footnote #6 in the article). The reason this article was so interesting is that it takes into account the time period... and doesn't judge Boyer Reinstein from a modern standpoint. The reason that she and so many others were able to live fulfilling and discrete lives as lesbians was because as was noted by Elsa Gidlow “it did seem that in those days civilized persons respected one another’s privacies” (422). Everyone was circumspect about their private lives, homo- or hetero-sexual. - Sarah H<br />
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Julia's story seems so foreign in today's "open" society. Now that sexuality is openly discussed, sexual orientation seems to be a much bigger, public concern. Although Julia had to keep her affairs private, she did not have to "reveal" and openly discuss her sexuality publicly as many women today must do. It seems a more comfortable situation. But I do wonder when Julia was with her lesbian friends if there was an "elephant in the room" that they wanted but feared to openly acknowledge? -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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== Dr. Carlton C. Frederick on Nymphomania, 1907 ==<br />
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I pity the most definitely unsatisfied woman married to that Dr. Carlton C. Frederick! His unqualified theories on woman were as sexist as Freud's of that same time period (the grotesque double standard was very popular then)! This article compared to the survey's of Dr. Mosher were so starkly different, I wonder what kind of effect the controversy had over the general population-and more importantly over the general female population? His assertive views on Nymphomaniacs has actually made me question the sexism based around that "disorder"-I would be interested in further study of the history of Nymphomania as recognized by physicians and society. Also in consideration of mental disorders: this article is part of the great slew of material that prolonged the accepted myth that homosexuality is a mental illness well into the early 70s in American. I don't know how doctors could do it back then- to use unsubstantiated views as evidence for such sexist publications! ~~Jackie Reed<br />
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I agree with Jackie that Dr. Frederick was a wack job! Where on earth did he get his information from. It really makes you wonder how many doctors in those days actually did any kind of research or if they were simply stuck on a certain view of women and because they were a doctor they felt that gave them authority and validation to what their theory on the female and sex was.--Michelle M.<br />
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I agree with Jackie about the Dr. Frederick essay. My question is: Was Frederick saying that nymphomania in women, was when they acheived the same level of sexuality and deisre that men had? Or was it on some completely different level? Also I found it disturbing, and almost funny how he so easily bridged a gap between masturbation and pedophelia.----Landon Davis<br />
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I flat out laughed when I read the beginning of "The Manifestations of Nymphomania." What I thought was so interesting about this reading, besides the ideology that if women liked sex as much as men the world would be one giant brothel, was that this was documented at the turn of the century. I think it's a good example of the mentality some conservatives were trying to hold on to as the "new woman" burst onto the scene. I just didn't really understand his distinction between "insane" and the "not insane." Were the insane and mildly insane nymphomaniacs the ones that went into bars and started flirting with men, etc? -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I found Carlton C. Fredericks article amusing at the same time it was irritating. It was amusing to me because of the way he approached the subject yet irritating because of its sexism. He seemed to imply that only insane or mildly insane women would likely turn to Nymphomania. I also find it interesting that he said women turned to other women to achieve satisfaction, wouldn't it then follow the logical path of his thought that to rectify this husbands should focus on more than just their sexual pleasure?(I'm not saying I agree with his thought process). Also, is he saying that men can't have nymphomania and that its an aliment strictly suffered by women?- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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== Mosher Survey, 1892-1913 ==<br />
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There were several parts of the reading off the wiki that fit in perfectly with the companionate marriage we discussed in class today. Most noticeably the second passage from extracts from the Mosher Survey, respondent 10 was qouted as "I think for man and woman married from love, it may be used temperately, as one of the highest manifestations of love." This passage exemplifies the break from the repressive victorian era ideals of marriage, that women should not enjoy sex, and that it should be used primarily for reproduction. Another example was the second letter to Sanger, the man was asking for details of contraception, not for (entirely) selfish reasons, he seemed genuinely concerned about his wife's welfare and happiness. ----Landon Davis<br />
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I was surprised after reading the "Extracts from the Mosher Survey, 1892-1913" because I did not realize that it seemed that most women did not have knowledge of sexual physiology before marriage. I'm guessing most of the men knew though. I think the 'birds and the bees' was mostly explained by my teachers when I was in 4th or 5th grade, or around age 9 or 10. Times have changed considerably, but I wonder how many U.S. females are raised in such a way still that they do not know much about it. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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So, as everyone knows, I hate the idea of using Lysol as a means of contraception. As a result, reading the one interview with Respondent 44 made me cringe. Bichloride? Really? I'm assuming they used the mercury compound since I saw another interviewee discuss it and I almost fell over. That stuff is dangerous so it astounded me that it had "no effect" as she stated. It never ceases to amaze me the lengths to which people would go to prevent pregnancies in the early 20th century. It was interesting to read all of the interviews though and compare and contrast them. The differences were slight because the years were relatively close together, but the shifts in belief about the purposes of intercourse emphasized that shift from a "sex is for male pleasure and reproduction only" world to a "women can like it too" sort of atmosphere. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I agree with Kelly, it is crazy what women will do to prevent pregnancy. How could you put yourself in danger just so you dont have children. I know that childbirth was considered not always safe but really, why would you do something even worse to yourself? I too was impressed by the change in the interviews, things have to progress. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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After reading the respondents from Mosher I was surprised to find out how many women really knew nothing about sex once they were married. I knew that it was somthing not talked about, but to be a women just married and not knowing what sex even was had to be scary and maybe even confusing to them. Did the husbands know though? What I also thought was interesting about their resoponses was that those who did try some kind of means to prevent pregnancy, when asked if their health was effected they all said no. The things they used didn't sound like very safe things, but what I've come to realize by these readings this week is that women seemed to be desperate for anything to have some kind of control over conception, but were the men just as desperate in hopes that something would emerge to prevent pregnancy once there were so many children already in the family too?--Michelle M.<br />
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I also found the readings from the Wiki very interesting! I was slightly shocked at some of the details in the "Extracts from the Mosher survey: 1892-1913". Mostly I was surprised at how long some of these couples waited before they had sex after marrying! There was one woman who said that their first time having sex was 5 months after they were married! I found this surprising because most married couples are simply expected to do that on their wedding night. And like Kelly I was shocked at the items they used to attempt to control pregnancies and then claimed that they had no physical affect on them when it should have.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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The fact that so many of us are astounded at the information in the Mosher surveys is an indicator at how far we have come. In my recent interview with two 81 year old women, it revealed that the discussion of sex was never discussed between the mothers and daughters. One of the women became a nurse after high school and received information on the topic in her anatomy class.--LisaM <br />
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I found "Extracts from the Mosher Survey, 1892-1913" humorous. Most of these women did not know much about the female body and not anything about the male reproduction system. Most pregnancy were an accident with a couple of exceptions. The usual types of birth control were used with no noted side effects. I think all the women said that reproduction was the main reason for sexual intercourse while the last interview , held in 1913, said that sex was uplifting like music. The number of times per week/month these women had intercourse varied. Would they have told the truth? -Nikole Wellman<br />
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In the document “Extracts form the Mosher Survey.” it didn’t surprise me to hear that most women didn’t know much about men physiology. Sex was not an open topic to talk about. Women then were taught to wait till marriage and that intercourse was only meant to please men and have children. –Ashley Scutari<br />
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== Letters to Margaret Sanger, 1920s ==<br />
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After reading the online reading something that stuck out to me the most was the letters to Margaret Sanger. I found it surprising that men and women were actually staying away from their spouses because they don't want anymore children. Because birth control was not offered to women, and especially women who lived in rural areas, it was ruining marriages. In letter number 4 the wife was actually thinking about their financial stability knowing they can not have another child and all the husband wants is sex not really caring about the situation. This whole concept of the companion family caused higher expectations, however in these letters the women and or men mention that they love their spouse dearly but because they don't want to reproduce tears them apart. If there was such a big problem with divorce rates increasing and infidelity then why wasn't this taken into account? Is it because people are just to afraid to talk about sex? -- Amanda Taub<br />
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When reading the letters to Margaret Sanger about birth control I kind of asked the same question Amanda did on why wasn't it taken into account that divorce rates increasing was really possibly due to infidelity which was essentially caused by fear of having sex in result of having children. Therefore birth control would really possibly save marriage, however I don't think it is because people were afraid to talk about sex even though it wasn't talked about but, instead maybe what they really wanted was to be able to have sex freely without the worry of getting pregnant, and birth control would allow a married couple to have control over how many children they wanted. Maybe they thought, this thought was a scary or selfish thing to even think or want becasue for so long people just had children, but because the world was changing there was just no need for families with 7 to 10 children anymore.--Michelle M. <br />
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The letters to Margaret Sanger about the need for birth control were extremely interesting. I thought it was strange how women assumed they would just magically know how to not have children once they were married. Also, I wondered if married couples not having sex so as to not have any more children led to affairs outside the marriage. Clearly, there was no birth control for any type of sexual relationship but I get the feeling that these people writing in thought that extramarital affairs couldn’t result in children. What did prostitutes do for birth control? – Cat Debelius<br />
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Cat had a great point. I read once that prostitutes would take a "potion" to prevent pregnancy. Basically the same method as other women.... Pessaries, maybe abortion. -- Nikole Wellman<br />
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The people who wrote these letters sound so desperate. They lived in a time where the companionate marriage seemed to burden the women with an emotional and economic dilemma; namely, the lack of intimate relations with their spouse could inhibit or destroy their marriage, but so could the economic and physical burdens that resulted from additional children. When I read these letters, I wondered how many women were pushed to self aborting because of no other remedy.--LisaM <br />
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I agree with Amanda, Michelle and Cat. I found the letters to Margaret Sanger Morose. All the letters were from married men or women wanting to prevent conception. Societies views and laws regarding birth control was ruining relationships and marriages. I do feel compassion towards the men writing to Sanger about their wives health. Would this be a compassionate marriage? -- Nikole Wellman<br />
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In “Letters to Margaret Sanger, Birth-Control Advocate,” I agree with the third letter from a mother of six children. She should be allowed to use birth control for a few reasons. Financially she cannot afford to have another child, she doesn’t have anymore time to take care of more children, and birth control will help save her marriage. Her husband would rather stay away from her to avoid having another child. –Ashley Scutari <br />
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== Blanchard and Manasses discuss Ideals and Problems of Modern Marriage, 1930 ==<br />
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I agree with Landon and also saw many parallels between the discussion of the companionate family in class and also in society today. Blanchard and Manasses' discussion of courtship points out that men and women were able to "become intimately acquainted" before marriage and discuss openly and equally about their opinions of married life before they were married. The notion that men and women must be compatible personalities, working together as partners in all areas demonstrates the new ideal. Yet there are still hidden facets of Victorian ideals engrained into the companionate marriage. The "lurking fear that she may seem too passionate, and her husband may suspect what still seems to her dreadful secret, she cannot give herself up to free enjoyment of his love," still alludes to the idea that women are not supposed to enjoy sex and when they do there is something morally wrong with them. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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I also saw a parallel between Blanchard and Manasses' discussion and society's ideals today. Sex education, and the lack thereof, is still a problem. Many schools still strictly follow an abstinence only program and students are left uneducated about where to go for family planning options. In many cases women still grow up experiencing "conditioned responses toward sex" in which parents have punished any form of sexual expression. The experiences of women described in this reading (anxiety, embarressment, guilt) caused by society's ideals still strongly exist. Their discussion was a liberal view and today this view would be considered conservative but how much have the ideals of women's sexuality changed from the early 20th century? -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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The discussion of “modern marriage” was really interesting to me. I find it horrifying that ideals of companionship didn’t exist before this time. Even in this essay, there is a part where Phyllis Blanchard and Carolyn Manassas question what a companion marriage may mean for the future once sexual desire fades. I just found it interesting that eve they are not true believers in companionship. – Cat Debelius<br />
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== Malcom Bissell on birth control activism in PA, 1925 ==<br />
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Malcom Bissell’s essay on birth control discusses how small group meetings in people’s home might be the most effect way of disseminating birth control information. I think this is very telling of society’s views at the time. Clearly, birth control was wanted and necessary, but there was such a social stigma and controversy over using it that people didn’t want to be publicly seen as seeking out information. – Cat Debelius<br />
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I also thought the article "Breaking the Silence" by Yolanda Leyva was interesting. It was surprising to me that the Catholic Church was one place where the lesbian women could be themselves. I would have though that the church would have severely disapproved of such behavior. Did they just not know that by segregating the women they were encouraging this behavior or were the women just using the circumstances to their advantage? - Christine Wuebker</div>199.111.68.165https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_8_Questions/Comments328--Week 8 Questions/Comments2008-03-12T03:34:12Z<p>199.111.68.165: </p>
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<div>THE ONLINE READING IS LOCATED HERE: [http://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/docs/MP-Reading.pdf Week 8 Reading]<br />
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In this week's reading of "'But We Would Never Talk about it': The Structures of Lesbian Discretion in South Dakota, 1928-1933" by Elizabeth Lapovsky Kennedy, the idea that struck me the deepest was the thought that the now extinct sensibility that existed during the first half of the twentieth century actually helped a minority people. Having unofficial social mores and a respect for others' privacy allowed for lesbians who were white to live productive lives as long as they lived according to same social standards that ruled the lives of heterosexual women. This custom appears to have created a type of equality that may or may not exist today. Given the fact that the majority of the things that many homosexual couples are fighting for today did not yet exist for heterosexual couples, it would seem as if during this point in time, lesbianism was treated as an extreme eccentricity that should be controlled out of respect for one's neighbors. --Justin Mattos<br />
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I did not find it as surprising that is was so possible for Julia Boyer Reinstein's family to accept her lesbianism. While I am sure that her mother and father would have preferred to have a son-in-law, that the father enjoyed not having to entertain potential male suitors and having someone who would cover up his extramaterial affairs should not be overlooked. In a certain sense, I think what made her lesbianism easier to accept than if Julia Boyer Reinstein had been a homosexual male was that the society in which she lived was patriarchal and thus the desires of the father won out over the desires of the mother, and her father really did not care whether she enjoyed a heterosexual marriage or not. --Justin Mattos<br />
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So then does the tying of sexuality with politics and identity mischaracterize people and their politics, concerns, and histories? --Justin Mattos<br />
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After reading "But we would never talk about it" I didn't feel surprised about any of it. Being a lesbian back then was not defined as it was today. It was common for women to confide in each other and sleep in the same bed and have an intimate relationship. However, a lot of people did not know what was really going on behind closed doors, which I feel is a reason why no one every talked about it. The only thing that did surprise me was that her parents were ok with it all. There is a passage that talks about how her mother would make a comment about how she wasn't with this one boy, but in the end her being a lesbian didn't bother her, she was actually very polite to Dorothy. In Julia's father's case, it didn't surprise me so much after there were comments made that he could have all of her attention. He didn't need to entertain possible son - in- laws, however I also feel like he used Julia because she was gay. By giving Julia his consent and accepting her it keep their relationship close, however he might of done this because it covered up all of his affairs. My question was did Julia ever see her father and her relationship this way, or was she just happy that her father accepted her? -- Amanda Taub<br />
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The second part that I thought was the most interesting was her encounter with Amelia Earhart. It shows how cautious girls were towards other girls. I feel that these women were so unsure about themselves that they really had to question others more. Especially since this was one of her earlier encounters, it shows that in the beginning Julia was very timid about her sexuality. Since she was shy about her self, she wasn't going to go out and put the moves on every girl, especially not Earhart. But as she gets older her "sense" gets stronger, through all the trips she took with her father. She could tell which woman was the "odd" one of the bunch, I also feel that over the years other women started to feel a little more comfortable with being gay and showing it a little more. Which made it easier for women like Julia to point out the "odd" girl. My only question was were there women like today who went through these phases of lesbians and then just turned straight and marry? Or was it because society was starting to see lesbians for what they were and women felt pressured to become straight live the way society wants them to? -- Amanda Taub<br />
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Kennedy uses the case of Julia to discuss the discretion of lesbianism in the early 1900’s. There were, however, many other aspects to Julia’s identity than just her sexuality. This is pointed on page 415, when Kennedy states “she came into her womanhood as a lesbian, as a college student, as the daughter of a father who was prominent citizen and business owner, and as the daughter of a mother who was strongly independent yet part of an established small-town protestant family.” Given this, the discretion of Julia’s sexuality may have been because it would have been a trait that overshadowed the others; it may have become her only identifying factor in the public eye as opposed to just one of many. Could there have been any other traits during this time that people felt the need to cover-up, other than sexuality? And how true is this still today? --Jessica Kilday<br />
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Lesbianism wasn’t something that could be discriminated against publicly; this is in contrast to other aspects of one’s identity such as gender or race, which could once have been discriminated against legally. Yet Julia still feared that if she was obvious about how she felt then she would not be able to receive all the benefits and privileges of her class. Which would be harder to deal with, discrimination by law or discrimination by society? --Jessica Kilday<br />
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All I have to say is, wow. I know there are still a lot of problems with accepting lesbianism today, but to read that a father accepted it and used it to his advantage was incredibly. I feel that even lesbianism today is kept quite because most people seem not to always accept it, however not as much as the 1920s and 1930s. There are gay rights movements and things like ‘gay day’ at theme or amusement parks, which to me shouts “we accept all people of sexual preferences.” That could also just be a money marketing scam… However, I really did enjoy this piece by Elizabeth Kennedy because going through the public school system I had friends that I knew were lesbians, but we never talked about it, not even when they would have a break up with their girlfriend. If there was a break-up we would take the friend for ice-cream or something, but nothing was ever said about the situation. –Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I pity the most definitely unsatisfied woman married to that Dr. Carlton C. Frederick! His unqualified theories on woman were as sexist as Freud's of that same time period (the grotesque double standard was very popular then)! This article compared to the survey's of Dr. Mosher were so starkly different, I wonder what kind of effect the controversy had over the general population-and more importantly over the general female population? His assertive views on Nymphomaniacs has actually made me question the sexism based around that "disorder"-I would be interested in further study of the history of Nymphomania as recognized by physicians and society. Also in consideration of mental disorders: this article is part of the great slew of material that prolonged the accepted myth that homosexuality is a mental illness well into the early 70s in American. I don't know how doctors could do it back then- to use unsubstantiated views as evidence for such sexist publications! ~~Jackie Reed<br />
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I agree with Jackie about the Dr. Frederick essay. My question is: Was Frederick saying that nymphomania in women, was when they acheived the same level of sexuality and deisre that men had? Or was it on some completely different level? Also I found it disturbing, and almost funny how he so easily bridged a gap between masturbation and pedophelia.----Landon Davis<br />
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There were several parts of the reading off the wiki that fit in perfectly with the companionate marriage we discussed in class today. Most noticeably the second passage from extracts from the Mosher Survey, respondent 10 was qouted as "I think for man and woman married from love, it may be used temperately, as one of the highest manifestations of love." This passage exemplifies the break from the repressive victorian era ideals of marriage, that women should not enjoy sex, and that it should be used primarily for reproduction. Another example was the second letter to Sanger, the man was asking for details of contraception, not for (entirely) selfish reasons, he seemed genuinely concerned about his wife's welfare and happiness. ----Landon Davis<br />
<br />
After reading the online reading something that stuck out to me the most was the letters to Margaret Sanger. I found it surprising that men and women were actually staying away from their spouses because they don't want anymore children. Because birth control was not offered to women, and especially women who lived in rural areas, it was ruining marriages. In letter number 4 the wife was actually thinking about their financial stability knowing they can not have another child and all the husband wants is sex not really caring about the situation. This whole concept of the companion family caused higher expectations, however in these letters the women and or men mention that they love their spouse dearly but because they don't want to reproduce tears them apart. If there was such a big problem with divorce rates increasing and infidelity then why wasn't this taken into account? Is it because people are just to afraid to talk about sex? -- Amanda Taub<br />
<br />
I agree with Landon and also saw many parallels between the discussion of the companionate family in class and also in society today. Blanchard and Manasses' discussion of courtship points out that men and women were able to "become intimately acquainted" before marriage and discuss openly and equally about their opinions of married life before they were married. The notion that men and women must be compatible personalities, working together as partners in all areas demonstrates the new ideal. Yet there are still hidden facets of Victorian ideals engrained into the companionate marriage. The "lurking fear that she may seem too passionate, and her husband may suspect what still seems to her dreadful secret, she cannot give herself up to free enjoyment of his love," still alludes to the idea that women are not supposed to enjoy sex and when they do there is something morally wrong with them. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
<br />
I also saw a parallel between Blanchard and Manasses' discussion and society's ideals today. Sex education, and the lack thereof, is still a problem. Many schools still strictly follow an abstinence only program and students are left uneducated about where to go for family planning options. In many cases women still grow up experiencing "conditioned responses toward sex" in which parents have punished any form of sexual expression. The experiences of women described in this reading (anxiety, embarressment, guilt) caused by society's ideals still strongly exist. Their discussion was a liberal view and today this view would be considered conservative but how much have the ideals of women's sexuality changed from the early 20th century? -- Meredith Bojarski</div>199.111.68.165https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_7_Questions/Comments328--Week 7 Questions/Comments2008-02-26T04:20:44Z<p>199.111.68.165: /* Nella Larsen’s Passing, 1929 */</p>
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<div>== Mothers’ Letters to the Children’s Bureau, 1915-1932 [1921, 1925, 1932] ==<br />
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"Anxious Mothers write the Children’s Bureau" deals with the health problems related to women and infants. People concerned wrote to the Children’s Bureau of the Department of Labor, which was formed until 1912. Before this, and even after this, was there anything for people to turn to on more of a local level? In addition, the first letter points out that the doctor was not available while the woman was giving birth, and the last letter points out the deficiencies in the profession. Was it more common or more reliable to see a midwife during this time? <br />
--Jessica Kilday<br />
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I really enjoyed the readings for this week. I thought it was interesting to read all the letters from the mothers to the Children's Bureau. The horror that one mother went throught just because she had a doctor who was not fully qualified and her desire for some sort of governmental check on all doctors to prevent such a terrible experience from happening again. -- Christine Wuebker<br />
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I agree with Christine about the letters to the Children's Bureau. They were all so interesting, the one about the mother who was worried about marking her baby was my favorite. Even though you hear of all the myths today that women worry about it was strange to hear this one. I have heard where craving certain food can help determine the sex of the baby but I had never heard that not eating a food that you are craving and then touching your face would mark the baby in someway. Where did these myths start? -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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I am in the same boat as Christine and Kellye, I really enjoyed the reading from the Children's Bureau. The talk of malpractice and myths was rather interesting, just what women had to go through with pregnancy and to get a doctor who isn't all that great with child birth. Also the myths that were there were just amazing, like the one Kelley mentioned where a not eating the food your longing for will mark or harm the child in some way. How do these myths start anyways? and why do women believe them? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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In "Anxious Mothers Write the Children's Bureau" I was shocked about how women would already have children but are still asking for pamphlets.I can understand they want the newest information, but Mrs. W.M. has three healthy boys, and is due to have another child. However she wants to know about caring for your baby. I found it interesting that these women were giving birth w/o a Dr. present, and then in the second letter, the Dr. is a quack. The second letter brought up a vaild point that these children are everyones futures. What I don't understand is then why are there not good Doctors and why women that live 8 miles away, why don't they try to take residence somewhere closer to them?-- Amanda Taub<br />
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I also really enjoyed reading the letters in "Anxious Mothers Write the Children's Bureau." I thought that it was really interesting that these women seemed to be fairly pro-active in seeking advice on child-rearing and health concerns for their children. It was also pretty amusing reading about the woman afraid that not giving in to her cravings would leave marks on her cravings. I wonder what the response would to that question in context with the time period. I also wonder how much things have changed since then. I know that we have a lot of medical advances, but I also hear of a lot of old wives tales surrounding childbirth. Also, I come from a fairly rural area and I can see how not living close to a good doctor could still be a problem in some areas. And to respond to Amanda's question about why they didn't move closer to a doctor, I think that it would depend on a lot of factors. Particularly, if the family lives in a rural area on a farm or something, it might be difficult to move the family. That's just one example that I could think of, and I'm sure that there are a dozen more. --Katie Nelson<br />
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Interesting stuff. Puts the early 20th century into context from a healthcare standpoint. I believe the average life expectancy in 1900 was about 45 to 47 years of age. It has advanced 30 years during the past century. Motherhood and childbirth, especially in rural areas, was obviously much more like a 19th century experience than what we come to regard as a "normal experience" today. Certainly no textbooks such as "What to Expect When You Are Expecting," available to these ladies. Phil Novalski.<br />
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== Dorothy Dunbar Bromley, Harper’s piece on “Generational Conflicts” – 1927 ==<br />
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I think it is interesting to look at the women’s movement and how it evolved in different generations. Bromely begins by looking at the term “feminism” and how some people thought that this meant a young woman who had a job and who is no longer “old fashioned.” She looks at generational gaps between women in their twenties and women in their forties. If you were to make this breakdown today, how would women’s opinions on feminism differ? –Jessica Kilday<br />
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I agree with Jessica. I found the dissecting of the word "feminist" extremely interesting, especially as explained by generational differences. It seems like today the same dispute over the connotations of feminism exist, yet I think generational gaps no longer account for this difference... so what does? - Cat Debelius <br />
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I found "Generational Conflicts" extremely interesting because it seemed like many of the reasons that the women of the 1920s didn't want to be associated with the term 'feminist' are the same reasons that many people today don't want to be. These reasons include the desire to not be seen as man haters, the idea that they wouldn't live for only her husband or her job but rather would balance the two arenas, and had a desire to still wear feminine clothes which the older generation who called themselves feminists did not want to do.-Elizabeth Frank<br />
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The Feminists--New Style of "Generational Conflicts" by Dorothy Dunbar Bromley seemed to be considerably naive. Was it really possible for a women to have a successful career during the 1920's and 1930's that could provide economic freedom? Was it as easy as these new feminists presented it to be?---Justin Mattos<br />
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Justin makes an excellent point. I'm all in favor of the "modern woman." However, you must be careful what you wish for. A lot of women I know (including my wife) who try to balance a career, a family, etc. during childbearing years are STRESSED OUT. Women should make their own choices, however, there is nothing wrong with choosing ONE or the other option, or going back to work after kids are raised. Societal expectations of the mother as the primary caregiver/homemaker makes the situation of a woman+career+family much tougher than that of a man with the same situation. Phil Novalski<br />
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For the first time in this class I saw a glimpse of what I would consider the modern woman. In Dorothy Bromley's writing she describes the 3rd generation feminists and how they didn't hate men, how they were concerned with being fashionable, and how they were more concerend with economic independence than with reform. Before this reading all the women we have studied or read about either seemed to submissive to resemble any females I consider to be contemporary, or they were far more radical and militant than the average woman in America today. -----Landon Davis<br />
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The other article I really like was "Feminist-New Style" by Dorothy Dunbar Bromley. It is the first time we see the formation of a modern woman. I also thought her description of the different generations of women was interesting. I was surprised she didn't talk about flappers. Today they are the most recognized women of the 1920s. I would have thought she would have at least mentioned them in her article. -- Christine Wuebker<br />
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As much as I love being able to see a correlation between the 3rd Generation girls in "Feminist - New Style" and the modern American woman, it bothers me how unappreciative those girls seemed to be about all that had been accomplished, especially with the 2nd generation. True, feminist had a bit of a negative connotation because of how radical most of the suffragists were and it still has that "man-hating" connotation today, but what those women accomplished took a heck of a lot of work and energy. It just makes me wonder, are women today just as unappreciative of what other women had to suffer and fight for to give us the luxuries we have today? I certainly hope not. I do, however, like the last line, "If this be treason gentlemen, make the most of it." I did like this article a lot, and I like how Dorothe Dunbar Bromley emphasized how women should take control of their lives. But it just kind of bugged me how much she ragged on the 1st and 2nd generation women. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I was also very interested in reading teh "Generational Conflicts" by Dorothy Bromley. I found myself agreeing with alot that she says. I think that the feminists of the 1970's had the same kind of reputation of being antagonizers of men or as being man haters like the feminist-new style of the 20's thought the older feminists were. I remember growing up in the 70's and being adamant that I did not want to be known as a feminist when I grew up! I still hate that term because of the negative image I have from the Femi-nazis of the 70's but I guess my beliefs are very much "feminist". How did the feminist-new style turn into the femi-nazis of the 70's? Is it just a normal "cycle" of generations and the old "history repeats itself" argument or did something specific happen to cause the feminist to revert to the more militant end of the spectrum again?~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
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In Dorothy Bromley's essay she talks about the new modern women, and how they are an individual and independent. However she says, "And in this era of simplified housekeeping they see their oportunity.." (128) What does she mean by simplyfied housekeeping? Does she mean simplyfied because of new technology in cleaning appliances and products or something else? Also with this new oportunity of free time women are going to do something they enjoy, so what do they do in their new free time?--Michelle M.<br />
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Michelle, - I found the "simplified housekeeping" remark kind of funny as well. I guess they didn't have to use the rainbarrel to wash clothes in anymore? I think its a poignant piece. Feminists have always had to labor under the constrict of trying to achieve progress, while not appearing to be too militant at the same time. That's a tough balancing act. I remember growing up in the 70's and 80's and feminism did get a stigma attached. I'm not sure it was a problem with the message from people like Gloria Steinem and Betty Friedan, it was people's interpretation of how the message was delivered. Conflict politics, like those sometimes practiced by Steinem and other activists, never makes people feel warm and fuzzy. Phil Novalski<br />
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== Women of the KKK, the Klan Kreed, Constitution, 1927 ==<br />
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I was shocked to read about the KKK. I had no idea in 1925 there were between 3 and 4 million American members involved. Also to read there were 500,000 women in a a "Women of the KKK" scares me. What drew all these individuals into this organization? Why so many women in 1925 and fewer in the later years? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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Like Rose I found the article "Women of the Ku Klux Klan" interesting. While I was not that surprised on how many women were involved in it, especially seeing how much dislike the Southern states had towards blacks, and I remembered learning that Jews were becoming to be targets of the KKK I didn't remember that the Catholics were also targets. Although I didn't remember this, seeing how the majority, if not all of the members, were white protestants it does kind of make sense. Though what I found most interesting was the fact that section 2 of the Constitution of and laws of the WKKK stated that the group would be military in character, and I would have thought these women would want to avoid that categorization since it was not very lady-like.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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The "Women of the Ku Klux Klan" document was really interesting. I was very surprised with the detailed constitution of the organization. Even though this was one way for women to become involved in politics it impressed me to the extent that the constitution went. It included the organization's objectives & purposes, membership and offenses & penalties. The type of offenses listed really surprised me, it never would have occurred to me to list "disrespect of virtuous womanhood." I would have thought that that offense would have been a given, but at the same time it is left up to individual interpretation of what would be considered disrespect. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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I knew that there was a Women of the KKK, but I did not have any type of understanding of how many members and their Kreed. I found just the in depth of the Kreed amazing. It covered membership, objections, offenses and punishments. I found it interesting that there was a donation of $10 required... unless your husband was in the original KKK. Does the WKKK or the KKK still exist today? --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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http://www.kkk.bz/ Oh yes, they're still here. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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Something that I found rather comical when reading the intro to the WKKK was that they made a point to say one perk of the WKKK was every member in good standing got a free white robe and helmet. The fact that, that is the perk that is listed is ridiculous, I can imagine a women being like "I don't know all of what we stand for but we get a free outfit." Also what I really liked was how this horrible organization was seen as, by the women involved, "a splendid opportunity for friendship and solidarity .... Just a celebration... a way of growing up." This just baffles me because these women are part of an horrible organization almost as an excuse to make friends and have fun and celebrate growing up. I know it was accepted during the time period but are these women that naive and ridiculous? -- Amanda Taub<br />
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I was shocked as well when I read about the WKKK. It just amazes me that more and more people were getting better educations but still people fell back on the "I am better than you" mentality. It amazes me that in their kreed they refer to having good morals and reputations and how patriotic they thought they were. I don't get how "White Supremecy" equals patriotism especially considering some of the things that the KKK would do. I know that my grandparents grew up in the 30's and they never supported these groups because my grandma always said violence against anyone was wrong but they had the same mentality towards different religions and blacks as these racial groups did. How did they reconcile the being a good Christian and believing in Jesus Christ like their Kreed says but then treat others the way they did?~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
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The WKKK article was very interesting because I had no idea that there was a KKK for women alone. I knew that the ones who had husbands in the KKK supported them, but that they actually had their own group, wow. Under the Constitution and Laws part of the article it says the "Order shall ever be military in character..." (136) How militaristic and ritualistic were they? Did they often commit violent act againt those they oppesed like the usual burning of a cross or throwing bricks through peoples windows?--Michelle M.<br />
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== Carrie Chapman Catt, 1920, to League of Women Voters ==<br />
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In "New Voters" by Carrie Chapman Catt, I found it notable that Catt thought of political change as only possible through political parties. This view differs from, what I guess is a more idealistic, view that the parties can be affected by grass roots movements. I guess her view of politics must have been shaped by her experiences fighting for women's suffrage. --Justin Mattos<br />
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I really like Carrie Chapman Catt's piece, "New Voters." She made an excellent point that now that women had the right to vote, they needed to do something with it. Since they were now seen on an "equal" platform with men when it came to casting votes, why not move yourself up higher in the political realm? That had been one of my questions actually, what were women going to fight for now that they had the right to vote? And was there something to fight for? Well, obviously, in Carrie Chapman Catt's opinion there was. It just makes me wonder if they would have been more successful had Catt been able to be a bigger part of this "new movement." She made the comment, "Younger and fresher women must do that work, and because I cannot advise and cannot follow, I only point to the fact that the battle is there..." and I just feel that with all she did for the suffrage movement, this next battle would have been fought better with her at the forefront. And, just for kicks, I liked the comment, "Women must not be content until they are as independent within the party as men are, which isn't saying much." She's so funny. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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"If you really want women's vote to count, make your way there."(p.122) This inspiring phrase from Carrie Chapman Catt's speech was the crux of the newly ratified 19th amendment. Now that women had the vote, how were they going to use it? She tells them to go out and get involved. It reminds me of all the campaigns to get out the vote that we have today. Catt understands that just having the power to vote is not enough; the real power lies in how it's used. I also found it interesting that she wants them to get involved in political parties in order to make the most impact. It almost seems like going backwards becaue now they're back to working within the male controlled sphere. It goes back to contradicting the narrow-minded male perception that women would all vote the same on issues. -Kendall Haring<br />
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Very practical address by Catt. You have to be inside the system in order to have real power. In those days, it meant gaining access to the "smoke-filled" rooms where the party machinery made decisions that affected people's everday lives. Phil Novalski.<br />
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== Doris Stevens [pro] and Dr. Alice Hamilton [anti] debate the ERA, 1924 in the Forum. ==<br />
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I found the debate about an Equal Rights Amendment to be fairly interesting. Of the two debates, I, with my modern understanding of things, believe that the argument in favor of the Equal Rights Amendment was a way to achieve gender equality. Having to wait for equality and legislate for women separately seems to play into gender stereotypes instead of defusing them which should ultimately be the purpose of whatever course of action that should be undertaken. --Justin Mattos<br />
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"One of the most divisive issues for political women in the immediate post-suffrage years was the Equal Rights Amendment..." One argument focuses on equality in control of children, property, earnings, etc., and the other places emphasis on equality within the workplace. When you look at each woman, you can see a relationship with their life experience and their opinion on ERA. Doris Stevens, who argued for equality of children, property and earnings, was a teacher and social worker before becoming a member of NAWSA. Alice Hamilton was a physician concerned with worker health issues. If the opposing female groups could have negotiated and addressed women's rights in unison, do you think women's suffrage and equality could have been realized sooner?--LisaM<br />
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I also found the debate very interesting as well as a challenging topic to side one way on. In a perfect world I would side with Stevens and the National Women's Party in terms of equality for both sexes. Although at that point in history it is easy to see how many women wouldn't want to be held to those standards in the work place. I think that Hamilton's arguement was best made when she looked to Holland. Instead of "taking privilege away from the women" (126) the privileges were given to the men. The debate brings up a very important point: where is the line that separates women and men and how do you draw that line while maintaining equality? -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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In Doris Stevens essay, she makes the point of realization that just because women have the right to vote now, does not mean that they will have eaqual rights still in other things. This is only the first step, because women are still seen as lesser than men. Did men or women or both think that now that women have the right to vote that it will make them happy and go away? Because equal voting did not solve the problem of equal rights all around.--Michelle M.<br />
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I thought it was interesting reading and comparing the arguments presented in Doris Stevens' and Alice Hamilton's essays. What I found particularly interesting was that each group seemed to have the best interests of women at their core. Stevens was promoting the equality of women and men, and Hamilton promoted protection of women. However, I think that the closing statement in Hamilton's essay demonstrates how women as well as men needed a lot of convincing to promote the idea that they are equals. She says, "I must, as a practical person, familiar with the great, inarticulate body of working women, reiterate my belief that they are largely helpless, that they ahve very special needs which unaided they cannot attain, and that it would be a crime for the country to pass legislation which would not only make it impossible to better their lot in the near future but would even deprive them of hte small measure of protection they now enjoy." (p.126). It's also interesting that she thinks that passing an equal rights legislation would make it impossible for women to better their lot, whereas Stevens thinks that equal rights is the key to improvement. --Katie Nelson<br />
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As a modern woman, I felt that I had to immediately side with Doris Stevens. Of course women should be equal to men in every respect, especially in the workplace (even though they still aren't in terms of equal pay.) But it wasn't hard to understand Alice Hamilton's argument. What the NWP was proposing was taking away the power of being women from women. It made me think about whether equality is always the right answer. While removing the issue of gender, Hamilton argues that you make women helpless in the world of men. Women are measured to the same standard as men. It seems like the question is, without considering a women as a group with separate goals from men, will they be lost in the workplace? Is that why women still don't have some of the same opportunities in professions or pay today? -Kendall Haring<br />
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Alice Hamilton's argument may be hard for the ladies in this class to completely understand, however, put into the context of not wanting to lose what had already been gained, her conservative position was somewhat understandable. Phil Novalski.<br />
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== Nella Larsen’s Passing, 1929 ==<br />
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In Nella Larsen's ''Passing'' it was very upsetting to read about Clare's double life. It's hard to imagine growing up in a society that valued "pure blood" so strongly that you would deny your ancestry in order to be a part of a soceity that would shun you if they knew the truth. I thought it was an interesting situation to think "if I was in Irene's shoes in the 1920's, what would I do?" -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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Was passing a common practice? It seems that passing would not only be infeasible but also extremely uncomfortable. I cannot imagine the pressure and strain of trying to live your life while having to lie to everyone around you and deserting your family. Do these sacrifices speak to the huge difference in standards of living between white and black Americans in this time period? Were conditions so bad for the black/mixed race people that they were willing to make this huge sacrifice and pretend to be someone else? Or was this just a few opportunistic greedy girls trying to get ahead one way or another? Also did any men successfully try and do this? -- Landon Davis<br />
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I have the same question as Landon, how common was "passing"? It doesn't seem like something anyone would want to do because I feel like living a double life would be such a hassle. At the same time, though, it was amazing to read Clare's statement about how much easier white people had it. "You'd be surprised, 'Rene, how much easier that is with white people than with us." But her explanations why seemed kind of naive in my opinion. Saying that it was either because of how many more white people there were or because they were secure enough with themselves doesn't seem like a satisfying answer. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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Nella Larson’s story about the girl that “passed” as white got me wondering… what happened to someone if they were found out? - Cat Debelius<br />
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With women having the ability to vote, I think it would have been interesting to track votes by gender and if a wife's vote was the same or opposite as her husband. Did females double the number of votes or was their a clear difference between what women found as important issues vs. the men? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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I found Alice Hamilton’s essay against laws that apply to only both sexes very interesting and actually pretty persuasive. It would be risky to assume that if the law was equal that society would be. Were the proponents of this legislation willing to face the time period when society hadn’t caught up to the law. – Cat Debelius</div>199.111.68.165https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_6_Questions/Comments328--Week 6 Questions/Comments2008-02-21T02:22:46Z<p>199.111.68.165: </p>
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<div>I found Jane Addams's view that women needed to be involved in the political parties since organizations for public good founded by a charismatic individual usually died after their departure to be interesting. Her belief that political parties produced more long lasting and stable change through their unification of the states and the nation was what interested me about her view, especially given today's political climate. --Justin Mattos<br />
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I also found it interesting that there existed Negro women who belonged to the Democratic party since it was the party that had recently worked for their enslavement and did not really support woman's rights at the time. --Justin Mattos<br />
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I found Leonara O'Reilly's "A Labor Organizer Speaks Out for Suffrage" to be a very good argument, but I failed to see how it was different from all of the other arguments that Congress probably had already heard that talked about how women's suffrage was the right thing to do and failed to speak about how women's suffrage was in the Congressmen's best interests. --Justin Mattos<br />
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I enjoyed the personal writings by the various working women. All were so informative and individual tone helped to understand the kind of labor, their general treatment, and their personal feelings about the job: gratitude, vulnerability. All these jobs were considered women's work and all were poorly (payed even compared to cheap male labor), demeaning in some way, and offered either high health hazards or demanded long hours. I found Agnes Nestor particularly inspiring, that she worked from unskilled glove maker to union leader (being part of that small 2.2%) and lobbyist for women's work rights. ~Jackie R.<br />
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The speech delivered by Abigail Scott Duniway (printed in Modern American Women), I thought was very interesting. She brings up a very good question, if women were sincere in their belief that men considered women’s opinions and kept their promises to women, then why would men not also feel safe in allowing women the right to vote? Her speech continues, to discuss how men and women were created equally as halves and without the consideration of both, there can never be a whole. –Jessica Kilday<br />
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There were many arguments both for and against women’s suffrage. Many of these arguments are outlined, in a satirical manner, by Marie Jenny Howe in “An Anti-Suffrage Monologue.” Throughout the monologue, she compares two opposite and extreme arguments to point out how ridiculous an extreme belief can be. One of her arguments can almost be applied to Duniway’s argument. Howe states that, “If the women were enfranchised they would vote exactly as their husbands do and only double the existing vote. Do you like that argument? If not, take this one. If the Women were enfranchised they would vote against their own husbands, thus creating dissension, family quarrels, and divorce,” (102). If men and women truly are two halves of a whole, as Duniway suggests, then the first statement would most certainly be true. If the second statement is taken as true and the votes of men and women cancel each other out and create conflict, then wouldn’t the same be true if voting were left to only men as well? If conflicting votes led to quarrel and instability within a family, then wouldn’t conflicting votes among men result in quarrel and instability in society? Looking at both of these extremes as Howe does throughout the monologue, leads one to realize that a more moderate view would be more functional and practical. –Jessica Kilday<br />
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I found it intriguing in the article by Melanie Gustafon, that even though the progressive party did not accept African American men, there were still some African American men that supported the party. My guess is they saw the party as being 'progressive' and would be the best party to, hopefully, eventually carry their own political desires. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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It was a nice change of pace to read what a woman against suffrage had to say about suffrage. I found her points intriguing, but I also wondered why facts were not proof... facts are usually there to prove one point or another. The article about Alice Paul and the conditions under which the prisoners were kept were horrible! No fresh air, the sweeping of dust into the cells, and feeding them basically raw pork is just horrible. Did this happen at most prisons? Does it still happen? -- Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I found the"Partisan Women in the Progressive Era" by Melanie Gustafson very interesting. I didn't know that the idea of partisan vs. non-partisan was actually a gendered idea, nor had I thought about the idea that women's auxiliaries could have been seen as women's lack of dedication to the political arena (pg 250). However, one of the points she makes that stood out to me the most was the fact that women suffragists, specifically, Ida HUsted Harper, felt that women's involvement in partisan activities was actually damaging to the suffrage movement. My line of thinking would say that the involvement in the partisan groups would actually help the movement since it would show the dedication that women had to politics that supposedly the women's auxiliaries did not. -Elizabeth Frank<br />
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In "Inez Haynes Irwin Recalls the Militance of Suffragists in the National Woman's Party, 1921" it is mentioned that after the Senate and President remained silent on the issue of women's suffrage they announced their intention to hold a (peaceful) demonstration yet, when President Wilson heard this, he immediately said he would accept and talk to a delegation of women. I was wondering if he decided to talk to the women because he was afraid that they would meet together and gain support instead of quieting down if the bill didn't pass? And if this was his hope, how could he have expected the women who wanted the vote so badly to simply back down? In other words, did he talk with them with the hope of preventing the very demonstration that they had despite (or maybe because) of this meeting?- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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Yet again I found the readings in Modern American Women absolutely fascinating! I enjoyed reading how many different ways the suffrage movement was promoted and with what ideas, as well with ideas that the anti-suffragists would use (although that came through a satire). Perhaps one of my favorites of these readings was the first one, "A Western Suffragist Talks to her Eastern Sisters" by Abigail Scott Duniway. It said in the introduction that the East coast suffragists saw her as more radical than they wished to be but I don't understand what was so radical about the ideas expressed in the piece we read (this may simply be due to the time period difference). I would have thought that her arguments that the movement was not a war between the genders but a movement for interdependence and that women did not want to remove men from their rights or limit them, but simply wanted to gain the ability to chose their own rights would have been comforting to those men who felt that the movement was a threat to their power. The "Anti-Suffrage Monologue" as also very interesting, at the same time irritating because I am aware that there were women who did actually hold these beliefs. However I do wonder if they would have phrased them in this way or it the arguments were exaggerated in this piece due to its satirical nature. Lastly, I also found the rules contained in "Front Door Lobbying' for Suffrage' by Maud Wood Park to be extremely interesting because it demonstrates the desire of women to gain suffrage while still being viewed as lady-like and proper. I found every single one of these readings interesting but it was those three that stood out to me the most.-Elizabeth Frank<br />
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I found Marie Jenny Howe's An Anti-Suffrage Monologue very interesting. Her 5th anti-suffrage couplet I found to be very funny and some what accurate. She stated "women can not band together. They are incapable of organization. No two women can even be friends. Women are cats." The fact that I am a girl I really see this. Throughout our lives we deal with our friends stabbing us in the back and someone gossiping about the other. Especially as I have gotten older women have become a lot more brutal. I do find this to be an issue in social settings and political settings. However since there was and is still a belief, why do women accomplish so much when its more then one person fighting for the same goal? Is it because we are still male dominated and we have them to regulate women's organizations? -- Amanda Taub<br />
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I'm not sure if I agree with Amanda's sentiment of "funny" when referring to Howe's "An Anti-Suffrage Monologue." In one passage she states, "Enfranchisement is what makes man man. Disfranchisement is what makes woman woman. If women were enfranchised every man would be just like every woman and every woman would be just like every man. There would be no difference between them. and don't you think this would rob life of just a little of its poetry and romance?" What romance novel was this lady reading! She also goes on to characterize the women that participate in the suffrage movement by saying, "Observe their inability, their mental disability, their spiritual instability and general debility!" Are these the characteristics of only the women seeking their rights or of all women? It appears that this women can make a claim to the characteristics depicted in Amanda's post because she has obviously exhibited this behavior in her writing. I think the "Antis" were afraid of change;I would guess they were quite comfortable within the sanctuary of their homes, and the thought of operating outside the domestic sphere was intimidating.--LisaM <br />
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In the Abigail Scott Duniway piece she made a point that I believe is dead on. "She said A home w/o a man in it is only half a home. A government w/o a women is only half a government. A man w/o a women is only one-half of a pair... a women w/o a man is like the other half..." What I don't understand is how men of this time period don't understand that if they did not have women in the home there wouldn't be a home. Everything she does for him wouldn't get done, and god forbid he does anything for himself when he gets home. Relating this document to Howe, she says women are there to wash the dishes and if the mistress of the house doesn't do it she hires someone. A man washing the dishes would be "blasphemy." Even before the 1900s I find it funny that men don't realize women do dictate their lives, women were influencing their husbands political activity. Women have a way of manipulating men to think they had the brilliant idea when really it was the women's decision all along. So in reality if women just stopped standing by their men then a large a majority of the American male population would probably be helpless. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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I agree with you to an extent, Amanda. You're right when you say that women influenced their husbands' political activity, but if you think about the reasons men were afraid to let women vote, one of them dealt with the fear that women would vote exactly like their husbands and without their own agenda. In reality, these women wanted the vote so that they could help themselves. I don't think most of them wanted to vote the same way as the men in their lives did. But your right; women did have (and still do) have a major impact on the way men acted politically. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I agree with Amanda, and I was really struck by the comment "A home without a man in it is only half a home. A government without a woman is only half a government..." But I think the fact that men didn't really understand demonstrates the double standard at that time. It seems that they thought that yes, a home without a man is only half a home, but they only thought that women should stay in their "domestic sphere" and should not enter the public sphere. The double standard is that men have to be in the home or it would only be half of a home, but women's place is only in the home. In this same article, I was also struck by her comments on the "evolution" of homemaking and her discussion of how more was being done in factories. She also discusses how more girls will work more in the factories through this process of evolution. I thought that these comments were a little brave, because isn't that what men were fearing? That women would leave the home and enter the workforce? But then, she reconciles it a little by saying that the younger girls will go to work so that the mothers can stay home... --Katie Nelson<br />
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I agree with amanda also to an extend on Duniway's qoute. And to an extent I mean I agree with the qoute based on the time in which it was said, because you have to remember that specific time period. It is true for that time period that a house with out a man was only half a home, and half a government and so on. The home is where the women were, but financially the man for the most part was the supporter, or head of house hold. So yes with out a women being in the house a man would not know what to do. However in today's world I think it is interesting that society has evolved to where now either sex can be independent, and not really needing to depend on the other sex for whatever. Therefore her qoute had a good meaning at the time.<br />
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I also agree with Amanda and Kelly. These women wanted the vote so that they could help change their own lives. They were already able to influence their men, so why would they vote they way their husbands did. Many of these women probably already had an influence on who their husbands were voting for. Changing it so that they could vote only insured that they could better fix the problems faced in their town. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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In MP the Inez Haynes piece I found to be extremely inspiring. These women speak to two senators and they honestly tell these women your bill is not coming up today. Then you have Wilson saying I am in sympathy with you, a nice little white lie and the suffragists saying ha I will believe it when I see it. I really like this piece because they weren't naive about what was really going on. But what really gets me is that these two senators did not lie to the women they were honestly like no not happening, then you have the President pretty much lying. I find that comical because it really shows who Wilson really is. But my question is why would he lie to these women? I don't understand how he could not think this was not an important issue and that when its time for re-election his presidency is in their hands. So my question is why would he lie to these women? -- Amanda Taub<br />
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After reading Florence Luscomb's piece, "Open-Air Meetings: A New Suffrage Tactic," I couldn't help but be impressed by the lengths these suffragettes went to in order to have their voices heard. The numbers she gave at the end, "We have spoken to 24,900 people ... we gave held 97 meetings ... and have obtained over 2000 signatures" is absolutely incredible. When studying the Suffrage movement, you never think of the extremes that some women went to and Luscomb and her colleague surely went above and beyond to get their opinions all over Massachusetts. I also liked her comment about taking the roof away from a female speaker and she immediately becomes a raving lunatic. If you think about it, the perception was true, especially since it went against the good old Sphere of Domesticity. Oh, and my apologies for using the word "suffragette." Blame Mary Poppins. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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Like Kelly I found "Open-Air Meetings: A New Suffrage Tactic," of great interest. Women suffrage groups obviously realized that to be heard they required a larger voice from the population of women. It is easy for government officials to dismiss a handful of suffrage organizers as fanatical, but a large group of women is a force to be reckoned with. The tactic of conducting open-air meetings allowed the suffrage representatives access to a segment of the women's population that they were not likely to see in any organization meeting.--LisaM <br />
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I really liked Maud Wood Park's "'Front Door Lobbying' For Suffrage." I thought the list of rules that were drafted were a great representation of how women tried to still be seen as moral and proper but still be able to voice their opinions for their cause. My favorite line, however, was the last section where Maud Wood Park discusses her favorite report which said "He said, 'I'm with you; I'm for it, I'm going to vote for it. Now don't bother me,' all in one breath." There must have been a large number of these amusing reports because I'm sure the men they were lobbying to enjoyed their visits. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I agree with Kelly. The list of rules really demonstrated how it was good to be involved in politics but yet at the same time still follow the ideals of society. Women wanted a larger role but were smart enough to realize that they needed to work toward it with baby steps. They couldn't just jump into the political realm, instead they could enter it but only by remaining lady like. -- Kellye<br />
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Marie Howe's essay on anti-suffrage was unlike anything I had ever read before. Her beleives or arguments were unbeleivable. She was totally unsupportive of the female gender, and shot down women, and really herself. She essentially calls women dumb, when she says, "women cannot understand politics." Well, why can't they, thats what education is for(102). Also she does not care about fact, instead she wants proof(103). Well aren't facts the samething as proof? Her whole essay makes me wonder what kind of childhood she had, because it was kind of angering to read how she thought women were just suppose to look up to their husbands and remain the little submissive women always, and have no role to play other than the house wife. Her own arguments have no proof and really just sound dumb.<br />
--Michelle Mardeusz<br />
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Michelle, I am guessing you did not realize that the article by Howe was satirical, your reaction to the article really shows how effective a weapon satire was in this instance. I think this shows that Howe did an excellent job explaining her point and in pointing out the fundamental flaws & hypocrisy in the arguments of the anti-suffragists, in a comical way. -- Landon Davis<br />
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Haynes recollection of the protest at Lafayette does an excellent job of exploring the feelings of frustration the suffragists were feeling at the time. As you read you begin to see how these women were continually being misled and disrespected by powerful men who held the key to what they had been working so hard to achieve for decades. They were so close to achieving their goals only to have them slip out of grasp time and time again, the tension and angst these women are feeling becomes palpable as you read. I am surprised more of the protests did not turn violent --- Landon Davis<br />
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The speech given by Duniway really exemplifies how powerful the doctrine of seperate spheres and the middle class ideals of womanhood really were. Here is a woman who is clearly as independent and career minded as any man yet she still works to quell any fears the nation might have. She reassures them that politics won't corrupt the women and that women won't neglect their household duties. She was smart to swallow her pride in this instance, she knew how to get what she wanted. -- Landon Davis<br />
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I was surprised to read that Jane Adams endorsed Theodore Roosevelt…. He is not someone that stands out in my mind as a proponent of gender equality. I was equally as surprised by his public letter thanking Jane Adams and supporting the women’s movement. – Cat Debelius<br />
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Why did women’s organizations, such as the League of Women Voters keep the idea of “the nonpartisan woman” alive if it was hurting the movement and allowing women to be seen as less dedicated or uninterested in politics? – Cat Debelius <br />
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I found “Front Door Lobbying” for Suffrage to be extremely ironic. Perhaps this was there tactic, to up play the social stigma of womanhood in order to get what they want, but the Directions and Don’ts List for the lobbying suffragist read just like a Cosmo magazine. – Cat Debelius<br />
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I found it interesting in Abigail Scott Duniway's speech that she tries to point out that the suffrage movement was not in "a spirit of warfare between the sexes" but in the "spirit of harmony and inter-dependence between men and women" (96). I think it is interesting that she goes on to explain how much women "like" men, was she trying to show that all women in the suffrage movement were not hard-core man hating feminists? Did feminist's have that image of man haters at that time?~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
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I also thought it was interesting reading Marie Jenny Howe in her "An Anti-Suffrage Monologue". I was a little confused at one point because she says in one sentence that her argument against suffrage was that women would not use it but then in the next sentence says that if they were enfranchised they would spend all their time at the polls and neglect their family. Ok so which is it?? How can she not go to the polls but at the same time spend all her time there? Her whole argument makes absolutely no sense to me.~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
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I was also a little confused at first when I read "An Anti-Suffrage Monologue," but after going back I realized that that was the point of the whole thing--to be confusing. I think that Howe does an excellent job of pointing out the inconsistencies and ridiculous nature of the arguments of the "antis." She points out that the central flaw of the antis involves the fact that they use two contradicting arguments to support their claims. --Katie Nelson<br />
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I thought it was interesting to read about "Open-Air Meetings" by Florence Luscomb. The meetings reminded me more of a potluck type ordeal than a way of gaining votes and getting a serious point across. Also, when Florence talks about a successful "summer of campaigning" I thought to myself wow have times changed. I can't imagine Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama, or John McCain going out to any large open outdoors space for their campaign. It sounds like their open air meetings were more for an entertainment purpose. -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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I found the the "Anti-Suffrage Monologue" by Marie Jenny Howe to be incredibly frustrating to read. The quote "If women vote, what will become of men? They will all slink off drunk and disorderly. We antis understand men" Really?? Did someone actually write that? "What makes a husband faithful and loving? The ballot and the monopoly of that privledge." Again, really!? I'm not sure I need to say more. -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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I thought "Suffrage Militant Alice Paul Goes to Jail" was particularily interesting by showing the reaction to radical female behavior. By being merely showing an active, aggressive tactic Alice Paul was labeled as manic and psychopathic by the standards of the day. This extreme blindness in the doctors ability to understand Paul's actions reminded me of the categorization of homosexuality as a psychological disorder until the early 1970s. The thought of women's rights was so foreign to some men such as Doctor White makes the progress women did make in this era seem exponential. -- Meredith Bojarski</div>199.111.68.165 Deprecated: header(): Passing null to parameter #3 ($response_code) of type int is deprecated in /home/umwhisto/public_html/mcclurken/wiki/includes/WebResponse.php on line 38