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Deprecated: header(): Passing null to parameter #3 ($response_code) of type int is deprecated in /home/umwhisto/public_html/mcclurken/wiki/includes/WebResponse.php on line 38 https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/api.php?action=feedcontributions&feedformat=atom&user=192.65.245.82McClurken Wiki - User contributions [en]2026-09-18T23:06:38ZUser contributionsMediaWiki 1.22.0https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_13_Questions/Comments328--Week 13 Questions/Comments2008-04-17T17:41:57Z<p>192.65.245.82: </p>
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<div>'''In addition to the interview writing assignment, everyone is expected to look over the other interviews and discuss them in our wiki here. What patterns do you see? What experiences stand out? Did these interviews challenge or meet with the trends we've talked about in class?<br />
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NOTE: You do not need to post about the reading for April 17 (though you are responsible for reading it).'''<br />
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When looking through all of the interviews, there were a lot of different trends that stand out. The first thing I noticed was that many of the women who grew up in rural areas had similar experiences in small school houses and growing up with farm life. Some of them noted that they had less technology available to them that many other women, who lived in less rural areas, started using earlier. --Jessica Kilday<br />
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I think it is important to consider geography when looking at some of the different experiences of women in the 20th century. I don’t know how much it was emphasized in my paper, but in my interview with Pat Teevan she said that women were expected to stay at home until they were married, but she didn’t marry. If she stayed in Boston then she would have been expected to live in her parent’s house, that’s why she moved to DC. This was also seen in the interview with Mary Nolan in Pennsylvania, as a single girl, “she never considered getting her own apartment.” When looking at the interviews of many of the women who grew up in the north (Massachusetts, Connecticut, Pennsylvania, NY, etc.), it seems like a lot of these women were more likely to be independent. --Jessica Kilday<br />
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I think geography also played an important role in the educational opportunities for many of the women. The women that grew up on a farm often found themselves living the traditional and expected life of wife and mother, while some of the women that grew up in the northeast had more experience with higher learning. ~Juliann Boyles<br />
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After looking through a lot of the papers the trend I noticed was that all these women had some type of education. Also a lot of theme weren't feminists, however their mothers did encourage them to go to school until high school and even a good amount went to college. But a good majority did leave high school get a job and get married, a trend that I noticed is a lot of them had children with in the first year or so of their marriages. There was no wait period like today, some people wait 5-6 years. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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That's true, I wonder if that has do with the fact that everyone here is in college. --Justin Mattos<br />
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It also might have been because that was what the norm was. Since so many didn't go to college they had extra time on their hands and were expected to start to raise a family as soon as they could. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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My grandma made a point of noting that when she was in high school her mother made sure she learned something she could use later in life. She took shorthand, typing and stenography, all skills used in clerical work, some of the other women I noticed had taken similar courses and took jobs as secretaries. The women in a lot of these papers took the jobs that were saved for women, secretarial and school teachers. My grandma before she even finished school was doing some clerical work, and when she graduated she went into the military but ended up being a secretary in the pentagon. All these women were your typical American women, taking the stereotypical job and then became a homemaker. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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I noticed that as well. It shows how ingrained in society and the belief of these women that these were the jobs that they were meant to do. My grandmother actually ended up combining the acceptable work once her children were in high school by not only doing secretarial work, but doing so for the school system. I found it interesting that so many women did fit into the traditional roles, it shows that the women who pushed the confines of society might not have been as numerous as some sources may portray.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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That is the strange thing about all of these papers. None of the people that we interviewed were activists, apparently. The majority of them did not believe that a women should work and raise children at the same time, and all of them, apparently, chose to follow typically feminine career tracks, if they worked at all, without any desire to do anything else. --Justin Mattos<br />
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I agree with Justin, it appears most of the women followed the typical path of t he 20th century woman: maybe go to school for a bit (either just high school or some college), get married, have kids, raise the kids, and after the kids have flown the coop, find a hobby. If the woman did decide to work it was typical women's work; clerical positions, teaching or nursing. ~Juliann Boyles<br />
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Commenting on Jessica's point on how northern girls seemed like they were more important. I feel like this could because of the fact that a large portion of the north was cities, NY, CONN is very close to NY, Mass has Boston, with all these cities there are mor job options. Also girls that wanted to get out of their rural homes went to Urban area to find a job an a place to live and as we know there are thousands of apartments women could move into. From what we have learned, women in the past who went to the cities were always more independent, because they had left home. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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After reading accounts of numerous women's lives it becomes quite clear how rare it was for women living during the 20th century to become professionals. Even when these women did go to college and were encouraged by their mothers to be independent, it seemed as if most ended up finding a husband and adapting to his lifestyle. I think that there would be such a drastic difference in the probability of getting an interview with a professional woman today. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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I agree many of these women never became anything more than store clerks. I do wonder why they did not try to get a higher profession once society changed slightly. Could it have to do with the fact that many had just grown accustomed to their jobs and enjoyed them? -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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I agree that after reading these accounts it really is obvious how rare it was for women to become professionals. And when I say that, I'm excluding the teaching profession because that was an occupation at the same level. There are a number of women in these interviews who taught, or had the intent to teach, but it was rare for a woman to run off and become a nuclear physicist. --Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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Something I noticed alot in the interviews were how many women actually went to college. That relates a lot to what we've been looking at in this class, because so many women did go to college but it oftened so to be a waist because they didn't really use their education, and that is apparent too in these interviews. Some either thought they were going to college but then suddenly decided to get married instead, or others did go to college and then they got married but still ended up staying home once married or had children. In one interview it talked about how married women didn't work or simply weren't hired as well as didn't come back to work at all once married or pregnant, which is something we've talked a lot about in this class. Even in my own interview, she realized that a lot her friends got married right out of high school and if you didn't then you went off to college.--Michelle M.<br />
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Also I there were several women who experienced war at one point in time in their life, whether it was WWII or Vietnam, they remember it and the affects it had on their family. I liked Jessica's remark about geography, because two of the interviews (maybe more) were women who were from West Viginia, and I thought it was particularly interesting how segregation played no part in their part of the country, and even how her school had a black student body president. I think that is amazing and even goes to prove that racism wasn't everywhere, even though it was wide spread through the country that there was at least once place were it didn't seem to matter. I wonder if there were any other places like that? Because you mostly here about the segragation in the south, well what about the rest of the country?--Michelle M.<br />
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Ashley's interview with Audrey Gunnoe really struck me as different from other interviews of women who grew up in rural areas. The fact that she was discouraged from school and expected to marry so early seems very out of place compared to the US as a whole. I also thought that her transition from the extremes of rural to urban life also made her experiences (her career and later beliefs) stand out from the others. It seemed that so much of what path the others eventually took was determined by where they grew up and what ideals their parents enstilled in them. With Gunnoe this was not the case. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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Mrs. Gunnoe is actually my mother, I didn't want to state it out in the interview itself because I wanted it to be about her. I do feel my mom led a very interesting life. I know her mother was nagging all us grand-girls about getting married early and thinks I'm wasting my life with going to college right now. She doesn't treat me like a human unless my husband is with me because I'm worthless without him according to her. However, Mrs. Gunnoe dealt with all that growing up and met my dad and he is just so... not the average guy. He always helped with housework with mom, he encouraged her schooling, had to encourage her A LOT to even think of driving (that was a HUGE no no where she came from). Dad really changed mom's life and showed her that everything didn't have to be stay home and have babies. Which in essence is funny because he grew up not too far from where my mom lived in Cyclone. My mom from when I was little has pushed for both myself and my brother (but more pressure on me... *Sighs*) to get a good education and pick a field of work where I can support myself in case something happens to my husband. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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Another pattern that I noticed was just how pervasive WWII was on these women specifically because of how many had husbands/boyfriends who served. I don't think that there is the same impact on women today because of how rare it is to hear a woman in college talk about her boyfriend or husband serving. Although it definitely happens it is nothing compared to the recollection of the women we interviewed. All the men, rural, urban, suburban, were serving. The impact of the distance between loved ones seemed more relevant on the memory of these women than the jobs the war opened. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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That's true, the difference between the times of the "Greatest Generation" and our own is fairly remarkable in this regard. Maybe if UMW had a ROTC, things would be different? --Justin Mattos<br />
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Yeah, although it is exactly what we read about in class, it is strange and slightly counter-intuitive to read about women whose sole focus was happily their husbands. --Justin Mattos<br />
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I noticed that many of the women fulfilled the role of stay-at-home mother and did so willingly. Many said they enjoyed being home for their children and would not have done anything different if given the chance. I was also surprised by the number of them who said they did not feel presured into that life. - Christine W.<br />
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I was shocked to read about how many women were divorced. We have learned in class that divorce was not common and sometimes even looked down upon yet several of the women interviewed were divorced. I also found it interesting that none of them gave a really solid answer when asked why they got a divorce. Most seemed to just ignore the question all together. - Christine W.<br />
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So far, I have noticed the obvious, the women from wealthy families went to college. Women from poor families did not. <br />
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Jean Fay Scott- divorced … poor…. Worked in a cigarette factory ... did not go to college. <br />
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Heidi Brown- German Immigrant married an American. Poor childhood... no college. <br />
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Molly woody went to college … wealthy family.. family had servants. <br />
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Marye Ostwald went to college… wealthy family.. had servants. <br />
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I also noticed that in two of the interviews, the mothers wanted more for their daughters than they had.<br />
Nikole Wellman<br />
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I also noticed that many of the women interviewed either had their mothers want something better for them or even know they wanted something better for their own daughters. I think part of that might be that although they were happy with the way their life turned out- they realized that there were other things they could have done and didn't want their daughters to be limited based on society's dictations.- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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I think that all these women did what was necessary for their families to survive. I feel that in most cases it is the same today. If the family needs the second income the wife works. Women have always and will always be mothers and wives and will, in most cases, do what the family needs. --Nikole Wellman<br />
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Yeah, but I think today women tend to focus more on being self-actualized which makes being a mother a slightly different concept. Today, there is more than a single way for children to be raised. Then there was only one, the wife stays at home. --Justin Mattos<br />
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I see a lot of the same patterns of women growing up and doing some schooling, some higher, most not... They worked for a while and then had children and in the end stayed home with the children. Some returned to work after the children were out of the nest, some stayed home. There are always breaks in patterns though, like with my mom Mrs. Gunnoe, she stayed home until my brother was almost 2 and went back to work. She stayed home because of the car accident and I was born... she stayed home until I was about 5... but has worked ever since. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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What I want to say makes sense in my head, so let's see if I can spill it out for you all. What I noticed in these interviews ties in a lot with what some other people said about being happy housewives and mothers. For most of these women, it seemed to me that independence was not a top priority, and when I say independence, I mean the type that most of us strive for today by going to college, getting jobs (professions) and taking our time finding marriage. The idea of an MRS degree still floats around, but it's falling further and further into obscurity these days. These interviews really placed a "face" I guess you could say with the time period. I mean, yes, some of these women did go off and get jobs and help fight in the war, but most of them went into the commonly thought of "female positions." A lot of what we talked about in class seemed to kind of become more apparent for me while reading these interviews. --Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I think I know what you are getting at Kelly. Like these women did want jobs, education and all but at the end of the day it was also a competition as to who got with the best husband and the best family, house, etc...Girls didn't only have to focus on school but in looking available and pretty for men.- Emely Amaya.<br />
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Overall I think what I liked most about reading these interviews was that these women really were the normal women of the century. While our readings for class are pretty well rounded, when writing my paper I found it extremely hard to find experiences in the readings that would relate to my interviewee because she was not that active and was a military wife, not in the military herself and unfortunately there were no readings about the experiences of military wives (though I think that would have been a very interesting read). So I definitely thought these papers and the projects were useful in giving a realistic face to the women of this century. - Elizabeth Frank<br />
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It seems that most of the women didn’t have any problems with society in their life. Most women accepted their roles and had no regrets with the paths they chose. Today, women read these stories and feel that it was not fair with what women were expected to do. It definitely is based on the time period you were raised. –Ashley Scutari<br />
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With jobs, it seems that women liked their jobs, but felt ok to just leave it if it got in the way of taking care of the family. Some women left their jobs to have children then returned when the children were older. Also, some women went back to school to get an education after they had children. There are still women today that do this. –Ashley Scutari<br />
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I thought it was interesting how many of the women did not seem to identify with the women's lib movement. It seems that a lot of women were satisfied with their choices of staying home with their children in a more "traditional" role. I also thought it was interesting that most of the housewives volunteered in some capacity. My mother volunteered at the schools and through church but she would never consider herself an activist, it seems like some others were the same way. It was really interesting to see that a lot of these women lived similar lives in a lot of ways.~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
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After browsing all the essays one thing that stood out was how good of a sample this seems to be. There were examples of alot of things we talked about in class. There were examples of poor farming families, independent city women, activists, docile housewives, various roles played by women in WWII, differences in how families were affected by the depression, immigrants, and alot more. I did not expect the essays to be so diverse or so broad in their scope. -- Landon Davis <br />
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It appears that alot of the women were poor growing up, most of them worked at some point or another, most of them quit work when they were married, most of them were married (young), and most of them were fairly well educated more went to college than I expected. -- Landon Davis <br />
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I also noticed that most of them avoided strong language, or at least it was left out of the papers. Again I did not read every word of every essay, but no agressive or controversial lines jumped off the page. -- Landon Davis<br />
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After looking over the essays, I really noticed how all the women seemed to be so affected by their life experiences. I found it particularly interesting the comments some women made about looking at today's feminist movement - I think their perspective adds an important historical element that still largely incorporates the pressures and expectations of the past. - Cat Debelius<br />
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It is clear from our classes sampling that every women had a fairly different life experience. It was amazing to me how different some of the women's stories were... some women happily stayed home while other eagerly pursued other options. I feel like our class's collection of stories is probably very representative of women's lives in the 20th Century. Not all women were revolutionary, progress, or even feminists. - Cat Debelius<br />
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After browsing through the essays, I am wondering if there is a pattern here between the lives of rural verse urban women... I know we have learned about the rural vs. urban experience in class... how accurately is that reflected in these essays? - Cat Debelius<br />
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Good pickup Cat. I noted that the women that had it the most difficult growing up were women living in rural areas, especially those who lived throught the Depression. I liked the one story about the "huckster" who came around and brought the groceries and household goods right to the rural residences. I just learned where a word came from! All that said, my Grandparents were all teenagers during the Depression, and the experience was a drastic one for all of them, both the females and males... perhaps more scarring on many than World War II. At least during WWII, the possiblity of starving or being constantly unemployed seemed to have lessened. - Phil N.<br />
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I used a pseudonym for my mother. I thought that she was kind of conservative, until I read the other interviews. Even the more independent working women... did not appear to feel as if they were working for a movement, they just made the decisions that they made. I didn't read every line of each paper, but I don't recall Gloria Steinem or Betty Friedan's names coming up often... and when they did... the women's responses were either negative, or guarded, rather than positive. - Phil N.<br />
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My favorite paper was Justin's about Charlotte Corbett Parker. Being one of the foot soldiers of desegregation, and having all of the white kids ignoring her, must have been difficult. However, she went on to become an accomplished woman and doesn't appear bitter in spite of her difficult encounters with Jim Crow and desegregation. I think there is a lot we can learn as men and women from the civil rights generation of the Fifties and Sixties. It takes a strong person to just ignore the hatred being directed at them and channeling that abuse and treatment into a positive life experience... - Phil N.<br />
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I got the vibe that a lot of these women did understand the importnace of being strong, independent, working women yet also were aware that they had to stay at home to keep their family together. Emely Amaya.<br />
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I think it was Mary Beth's essay in which when she asked why her interviewee why she stopped working and the the answer was "...because i got married". Like hello? common sense! That's what women DO when they get married. - Emely Amaya<br />
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The first thing that stuck out to me was the “restrained feminist” or proud-homemaker voice that many of the interviewees seemed to speak with. Sue Conrad noted she considered herself a feminist because she supported the right to vote, but she preferred life as a homemaker and the doctrine of separate spheres. She viewed some feminists as extreme. Virginia Kyser had a similar opinion, stating the feminist movement carried things too far. Connie Barna believed she was not against feminism but that she herself preferred to stay at home and create a pleasant atmosphere. -- Matt Struth<br />
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Another trend that stuck out to me (and seemed to fit very well with what we learned in class) was the occupations of the interviewees. It seemed like upwards of 90% of the interviewees at some point worked as either a teacher or secretary. -- Matt Struth<br />
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The most interesting essay to me was the interview of Sue Conrad. The discussion of segregation in Sue’s early life was completely the opposite of what I would have expected (she said that at a time when integration was a contentious issue, she attended a majority-white integrated school in West Virginia which a black student as the senior class president). The location and timing of this narrative is surprising, but in a good way. -- Matt Struth<br />
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I read the same thing as Emely. It's interesting that getting married meant that you would quit your job. But what I also thought was interesting was that women who were nurses didn't mention quitting their jobs, at least from what I read. Maybe when you were a nurse, it was easier to combine home life with your job? -Kendall Haring<br />
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The proud homemaker tone did prevail in many of the essays. It seems something these women were so proud of and something I didn't understand until my own interview and reading other people's. Sometimes I think women who want to stay at home are called unambitious or lazy but really, these essays show that it was in fact a job. -Kendall Haring<br />
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I felt that by reading these alot of stereotypes about women in the past were proven true with the few odd women who did not do what was expected because of extenuating circumstances (war, marriage, children, etc.) It did seem like alot of these women were very similar, and like several other people have said, jobs seem to be all the same: nurse, secretary, homemaker. I feel like all these women, although not at all from the same places and walks of life, had very similar experiences and i feel that this reflects the times during which they lived. --Julie Robert</div>192.65.245.82https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_12_Questions/Comments328--Week 12 Questions/Comments2008-04-10T15:01:29Z<p>192.65.245.82: /* Naomi Craig's interview */</p>
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<div>== Rosa Parks and Virginia Foster Durr ==<br />
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'''Who is Virginia Foster Durr?'''<br />
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I too have heard of Rosa Parks story but never the details like this article had. What I thought was so interesting was how a bus boycott lasted a year and how all of the black people denied having anything to do with it, and their white bosses went along with the lie, because they needed people to do stuff around their house, and take care of their children. Not only that but everyone new that everyone was lying and there was nothing that anyone could do about it other than cops writing stupid tickets. When the boycott was over I wonder if their were still problems (I imagine so), because there is always that one person who ruins it for everyone, or starts trouble.--Michelle M.<br />
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I enjoyed the piece this week that focused mostly on Mrs. Rose Parks in MAW. I always knew the general story about Mrs. Parks, but never details to this extent. I knew there was a bus boycott, but I didn't realize it went on for a year. Just think of the revenue the bus companies suffered. I wonder why it lasted so long. Mrs. Parks really was a remarkable woman though. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I really enjoyed this article on Rosa Parks. I knew about her and what she did but never really knew all the details. There seemed to be so much more to the story than I had always been told. I really liked how it talked about going to get her at the jail and then the trial. It is amazing to me that she started so much without really realizing it. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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The story of Rosa Parks to me is both saddening and uplighting at the same time if that's possible. We know the black perspective on the issue but what was the white's perspective? Did all the white feels the same way and come to the same agreement or were there varying opinions? What did the white people on the bus think that day in history? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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'''I found it interesting in the reading in “Civil Rights Activists” (in MAW) that the black men and women who participated in the bus boycott refused to admit it. Were there any legal actions that could have been taken for participating in the boycott?''' It also talked about some of the legal actions that were taken toward both black and white women who seemed to be aiding in the boycott. “The black people formed car pools, and the city tried cracking down on them by arresting the drivers for going two miles an hour over the speed limit,” (224).''' Were they really being arrested in the sense that they were being taken to jail, or were they fined and ticketed?''' You would think that arresting a lot of people for a crime this small would eventually just cost the city more money and resources than necessary. --Jessica Kilday<br />
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I also found this piece well pretty awesome. I agree with Kelley when she said, its amazing how Rosa Parks started such a strong movement without even realizing it. Something that I also found interesting was the unspoken support, when people would talk to others about not taking the bus, that it is nice of them to support the boycott, and people would reply with any excuse possible on why they are not taking the bus. I also liked how the white women supported it as well, even though it was for their own agenda, but when the police started to pull them over I loved how they would respond,saying if you want to come clean my house then fine but until then I will keep driving her to and from her home. The fact that even whites were participating in the boycott really shows the impact that Rosa Parks had. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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I thought a really important part of the Montgomery bus boycotts was the fact that it was almost necessary that black women stayed quiet. I would have assumed, not reading this piece, that most participants would have been proud of being a part of the cause and I was quite surprised to find out that they were silent. I didn't think that admitting to participating could be as risky as it was. In reality women could have lost jobs or face legal fines for such a simple action. Their silence was ultimately their weapon. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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I found it really interesting to read about Rosa Parks and the bus boycott. '''It was interesting how those who were boycotting would not admit they were doing it. Were they expecting a backlash for boycotting? The way I have always thought of the civil rights movement was that they were proud of their convictions and strongly supported the movement. By boycotting they were supporting the movement but why deny it when asked?''' That seems strange to me.~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
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I had the same reaction as Meredith. It's interesting to look at early white feminists and activists and compare them to female black activists. While educated, middle class women often characterized the former, it was more difficult for any black woman to openly take up protest against the things that oppressed them. Rosa Parks was basically middle class for black women back then as were many of these women who supported the boycott. But unlike middle class white women during this time and earlier, these women often had to work. Between household duties, motherly duties, and work duties it is hard to imagine these women even had time to be activists in civil rights groups. But, as for all this "I thought black people were proud of their convictions" so "why did they deny it?"-I must respond that in the early 1950s the movement was still young. the south was still full of danger for non-white people who caused a lot of uproar against the way things were. And a black woman (with all her responsibilities and dependents) could not afford to get arrested or lose her job. I think attitudes started dramatically changing more into the late 60s amongst average people, because they had the Civil Rights Acts to use against discriminators, average people (not professional activists like Ella Baker) were not legally protected in the 1950s for even the smallest, personal protests. --Jackie Reed<br />
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Like many of my classmates the detail about this article that struck me was the fact that many of the men and women who were participating in the boycott denied it when they were asked. I would have thought that because its an issue they clearly felt strongly about that they would be willing to admit that they were a part of it. I also enjoyed seeing that the white women supported the black women through this, even if it was simply because they needed someone at their house to do the work. Although i do wonder, how much of it was because of that or were they, like the black men and women, using it as an excuse to cover up their support?- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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I thought this article was very interesting. I too have heard the Rosa Parks story many times but never with this much detail. The thing that surprised me the most was the support the white women gave the black women. I was not surprised the balck women lied about their involvement because that would be dangerous for them. I was surprised to hear about all the white women who would drive their black maids to and from work and then deny it. It was also interesting to read about how the cops tried to stop it by giving tickets to any one they thought was supporting the boycott. - Christine W.<br />
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Just a random comment: Before I read this I didn’t know that Rosa Parks was sitting in the section of the bus for African Americas and only when the white section was full did the bus driver ask her to vacate her seat for a white man. I always thought she was sitting in the first seat on the bus. It really doesn’t matter where she was sitting, the whole thing is wrong. It just changed the mental image of this historic scene in my head. Also… '''I know that gender ideals were really strict at this time… in this situation how did a man balance gender with race? Like, the guy on the bus that Rosa Parks was suppose to give her seat to… did he think “I should stand and let the lady sit.” When did people’s concepts of race trump there concept of gender norms?''' – Cat Debelius<br />
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Also I agree with everyone that this was an awesome article you really could see the history being made with so many important figures in their early stages, and the ordinary people on the outskirts who really made it all possible. One question that came to my mind as i was reading was: '''Did the cops write those tickets out of their own personal rejudice or was there an order from the powers that be?''' ---- Landon Davis<br />
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Rosa is a hero, I feel that her friend Virginia Foster Durr is as well. As a white women to fight for civil rights in the 50's is remarkable. Together with her husband, they did what they could for the cause, even getting a traffic ticket as a result of transporting black women to and from work. --Nikole Wellman<br />
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'''Why didn't the NAACP set something like this up sooner, and on purpose.''' If I was a leader of the NAACP I would have black people out breaking all kinds of minor laws like that, in order to get to court and challenge the constitutionality. Once they won the case did they begin to do this? ----- Landon Davis<br />
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It was so interesting how the women who supported the bus boycott denied why they were walking home. It is understandable that in such a volatile situation they wouldn't admit to what they were doing. But I still found it extremely brave that these women still did it even though they were afraid. -Kendall Haring<br />
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I just want to discuss what Amanda said a little more about white support of the Civil Rights Movement. The way the Durr's immediately rushed to help Rosa Parks after her arrest was remarkable to me. Cliff didn't hesitate because he would be bailing a black woman out of jail, he hesitated because he didn't have the money. ''' To me, that amount of interracial support is incredible, especially when it came to offering women rides during the boycott. Please tell me this is more popular than I get the feeling it was.''' --Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I also found it interesting that black and white women had to lie about supporting the bus boycott. Society still needed money to support their families and to have jobs available. The boycott was definitely an improvement for the civil rights movement just society could not completely stop to support it. –Ashley Scutari<br />
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'''What I found interesting about this article is the difference between Rosa Parks's account of what happened and Virginia Foster Durr's account. I can't help but think about whether Durr was sort of spicing up the story or Parks was employing some common euphemisms of the time.''' --Justin Mattos<br />
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The "Conspiracy of Silence" regarding the Montgomery bus boycott was an interesting facet that I hadn't known about. However, I recalled the movie "Mississippi Burning," and '''remembered that while much of the white racism was overt, the police harrassment of many blacks and some sympathetic whites was often covert. Its clear the Mrs. Durr was stopped and ticketed for driving a black woman to work, but obviously the police officer wouldn't state that aloud.''' He was probably following a policy laid down by his police chief that was given orally, so that they could deny such a policy existed. - Phil Novalski.<br />
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I really enjoyed reading about Rosa Parks and the Montgomery Bus Boycott. Before reading this article, I had never read or heard about it in this much detail. What I think is particularly striking about this piece is that Rosa Parks comes off as this quiet and mild-mannered woman -- someone who you would never think would challenge the constitutionality of a law--but she is not hesitant at all to do so. --Katie Nelson<br />
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Along with everyone else here, i found this article to be very enlightening, i had often heard the story of Rosa Parks and the bus boycott, but i had never really gotten details, i have to say that the need for people to work makes things like boycotts possible and that this situation showed that especially well what with everyone lying simply because they needed the work and lobar that was being done by african americans. -Julie Robert<br />
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== Cynthia Griggs Fleming, “Ruby Doris Smith Robinson and Black Women’s Leadership in SNCC” ==<br />
'''The entire time I was reading this essay, the only thing running through my mind was, "Good grief Robinson is incredible!"''' What I truly loved about her is that she cared for the movement. She wasn't about appearances, she wasn't about making herself known, she wasn't about making the world aware of how much she did, she just went after what she believed in. She pushed boundaries and, as a black woman during a white return to domesticity, really stood up for her beliefs. We read and learn about Rosa Parks and Ella Baker and all these other prominent women involved with the Civil Rights movement and all of it is empowering. Reading about even more women than the "big names" that we've all known since elementary school makes it that much more impressive. These women went against overwhelming odds and had their femininity attacked because of the way they stepped outside their "feminine roles." It's impressive how involved women were in the Civil Rights movement, as well as how high up their positions were within the organizations. However, I'm still having a hard time grasping the fact that Ruby was a debutante. And, as a former majorette myself, I'm proud to learn she twirled a baton at one point too. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I also really enjoyed this article and fully believe that Ruby Doris Smith Robinson is a role model that all people should look up to. She was involved in the movement because it was something that she really believed in, and she truly did not want any publicity out of it, which I loved reading because a lot of times today when someone does something good its always wondering if they did it because they cared or because they wanted the attention. '''I also enjoyed reading about how their femininity came under attack because of their leadership positions- but I'm also wondering how often this still happens today?'''- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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I find it interesting that the black women's feminity was questioned because of their activism. ''' "Even though the behavior of black women activists did not always fit contemporary notions of proper female behavior, it did fit comfortably into an established tradition of black female assertiveness."(548) The essay also goes on to state that the feminine side was important to the activist women, but I wondered if their perception of feminine was based on a "white" middle-class ideal'''.--LisaM<br />
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I think Fleming's piece goes to show that the unpublicized, unrecognized nature of Robinson represents the work of African American women during the civil rights efforts, in general. As one worker states, "We've been getting beaten up for years trying to integrate lunch counters, movies, and so on...But these white girls come down here for a few months and get all the publicity. Everybody talks about how brave and courageous they are. What about us?"(549) '''All I could think after reading was, what were white women doing that was honestly comparatively newsworthy? I can imagine a reason for racial tensions amoung women after reading this piece. I think that black women were not getting the "right" type of publicity that they sought for their causes from southern institutions.''' -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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Question/comment: '''Is being a strong woman, or in this case a strong and resilient black woman, still looked upon as unnatural, or a liability today? It's sad, and ironic, that such a strong, spirited lady would be viewed as unattractive and unlady-like because of this her courage and strength. Do these gender politics still apply as much today, particularly in the black communtiy?''' - Phil Novalski.<br />
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== Mirta Vidal Reports on the Rising Consciousness of the Chicana About Her Special Oppression, 1971. ==<br />
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After reading the article in MP, I feel like the arguments Chicanas had were no different than other races. Obviously they had some fair arguments to make but issues such as female oppresion and childcare, didn't everyone have that same problem unless you were a member of the upper class? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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The reading in MP deals with the Chicanas growing awareness of their oppression. '''Many of the challenges they faced were similar to those of women of other races, however, they were oppressed as a “nationality, as workers, and as women,” (455).''' Within their own race, men had trouble dealing with their opposition to their oppression because they feared that it wouldn’t threaten their own power. Many of the things these women fought for, affected them as women (i.e. abortion, childcare, contraception, etc…), so how would this “pose a threat to their ability to rule?” (456). I think Vidal makes a good point in the end when she basically says that there needs to be equality within the race itself (i.e. between chicanas and Chicanos) before the race, in its entirety, can be seen as an equal in society. '''This brings up the idea or debate on how much influence intra-racial discrimination has on inter-racial discrimination.''' --Jessica Kilday<br />
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I agree with Rose, after reading this article I had a hard time seeing how the problems the Chicanas had were any different than the problems of other women. I understand that people of different races do have different issues and experiences, I just felt like this article did not do a good job of demonstarting those differences. - Christine W.<br />
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If female inferiority is such an “Anglo thing” how did it get incorporated into so many other cultures? I feel like it is prevalent all over the world. – Cat Debelius<br />
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Kind of builidng of what Cat said about the "Anglo thing" I found it very interesting that the men tried to opress the women by comparing there movements to those of white peoples'. This shows that they obviously did not care for our culture or ways very much and had a negative opinion of white people as a whole. I have noticed this same tool being used to try and manipulate people of other races, and times especially within the white community (linking feminism to lesbianism, and communists).---Landon Davis<br />
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I like the point that Jessica brought out of the reading. With the inequality within a race, how are the Chicanas ever going to free of racial oppression from other races? If they can't even respect other Chicanas regardless of class, then I agree with Vidal's point. Equality has to start within your own race before you can receive respect from others outside of your culture. -Kendall Haring<br />
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I agree with Rose too on how other women were struggling with the same situations, it was not just the Chicanas. '''What I felt was unfair was the statement about how the doctor without the woman’s consent wanted to see her reaction when given placebo pills that did not prevent conception. His main reason for this was that women would not understand the difference between birth control pills and placebos.''' –Ashley Scutari<br />
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I snickered at the "Anglo thing" comment as well. Mirta Vidal wanted control over her own body so she can have have a right to have a legal abortion, child care, rights to use contraceptives....but The Women's Liberations Movement was a "Anglo thing". '''The Chicana's organize their one group working towards the same goal as white women. Both groups could have been one super strong group if they worked together... you know ..."Girl Power"''' --Nikole Wellman<br />
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I don't know about the rest of you, but my overwhelming feeling while reading this article was one of confusion. Who are the Chicanas? I feel like I need some more content knowledge to fully appreciate this piece. I agree with the several previous statements about the plight of this minority - it was one experienced by many women. Of course the experiences of a minority female are aggravated by the acute racism the country has had and still has today. One of the most unsettling parts of this piece was the part about the doctor prescribing placebos to his patients under the disguise of birth control, and of course the women got pregnant. The doctor's reasoning? Because "Mrs. Gomez from the West Side" just wouldn't understand such things. Unfortunately, I still see this racial prejudice today. I often hear snide comments from a few men about how I can't do something "because I'm a woman." so from personal experience, that MD really pissed me off. ~Juliann Boyles<br />
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'''Since Chicanos are Latin American, is not their sexual discrimination very close to being exactly the same as those experienced and perpetuated by white people? They have the same European origins and the concepts of femininity contained within machismo and male chauvinism are almost the same.''' I wonder how that changes things. They certainly did not have the same situation as black women as far as sexual discrimination within their culture was concerned. --Justin Mattos<br />
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The demands of the Chicanas were fairly strange. They did not seem to be quite as focused or realistic. After reading about the Civil Right Movement, how realistic can it sound for a group to demand 24 hour child care? --Justin Mattos<br />
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I have to agree with Justin on some of the demands made by the Chicanas...24 hour child care. If you don't have time to raise your children because of school, work etc., then wait to have them. I feel that this type of demand decredits the rest of their argument. When reading this essay, I had to remind myself that this took place in the United States. Each ethnic group looked to carve out their own niche or take their piece of the pie. I think if all women, regardless of race and class, had got together on the issues, women may have resolved these issues much sooner.--LisaM<br />
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'''As I was reading this piece, the section discussing that Chicanas suffer from a triple form of oppression--an oppressed nationality, as workers, and as women-- really stood out to me. In class we have talked about how African-American women are often the "worst off" because they suffer from both racism and sexism. Do you think that African-American women and Chicanas suffer from some of the same problems since they are both members of more than one oppressed group?''' --Katie Nelson<br />
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== Naomi Craig's interview ==<br />
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Mrs. Naomi Craig's interview really lets the reader get a feel for how life was for her and her children. There were hard times, but they dealt with them. She discussed the problems she had with finding a house and a job just because of the color of her skin. She also never agreed with the Vietnam and what it did to children and their mother's who couldn't afford to send their children to college to get out of the draft. I know my dad had a draft card # for the Vietnam war and almost had to go... they got within 10 calls of his number before the war was declared over. I would hate to know the feeling that just because you can't afford college, you HAVE to go fight that war... --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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Naomi Craig's interview, '''she talks about how her and her husband had a hard time buying a home, and she addressed the issue how blacks also had a hard time getting jobs. ''' I had to read "The Orgins of the Urban Crisis" for this week in my American Landscape class and it talks about exactly what she has adressed here in her interview. You would think that realtors wouldn't care who they were selling too, as long as they were making money doing it. I also couldn't believe how difficult they made it for black people to get a job. Also the book talked about how the realtors would use the fact that whites wanted to move if one black person moved into their neighborhood to their advantage to profit more. '''Although it only talked about the city of Detroit this obviously happened in other places. Most neighborhoods today are still mostly one race. Do we do it on purpose or not still? How many of you have come from a mostly white or mostly black neighborhood?'''--Michelle M.<br />
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Naomi Craig's interview was very interesting and eye opening for me. I knew about the hardships that blacks faced but at the same time I really didn't understand them. Reading her interview really showed what she had to deal with. I guess since it was more like a story or listening to someone tell stories it made it all seem much more real. I was really surprised to read about how her daughter who was 3 years younger then her son was able to finish school at the same time just because she was interested in studying. That is something so difficult to do and I would have thought it almost not possible for blacks at the time due to segregation. When she talked about Martin Luther King's assassination it made it really showed her feeling. It was a hard time for many people and you can really see how is death affected her when she said "When Martin Luther King died I felt as though the light had gone out of the world." -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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To me my favorite history to read are the personal accounts of real people, anyone can write about anything, but the emotions that come alive in a personal account is so much more. Naomi Craig's interview really fascinated me, because for years and this semester I have been learning about all the hardships blacks had to face, but I really didn't know the real extent of it all. '''I love that her children succeeded in their lives despite all the segregation, that her daughter who was 3 years younger then her brother graduated at the same time. I feel like this was possible because they had lived in the north but, the north wasn't that much of an easier place to live then the south.''' I think my favorite line was when Craig was talking about how she went out to get a job when she finished high school and she was told there was no way she was going to find a job. When she says "And here I was dressed lovely, thinking that was the right first step. And here was some dowdy, ugly woman telling me I couldn't have a job." I just started laughing because it is a response any woman would have given to the situation. I can totally see where Craig is coming from, why is this ugly woman so special that she can have a job over a pretty black girl? If you are going to base hiring people on skin color why not hire them based on their looks as well?It truly is amazing to me how these people went through so much and so many of them came out with their heads held high, it really shows how strong a people they were and are today. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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Perhaps one of the most striking pieces of Naomi's interview, for me at least, was when she talked about the protests of the Vietnam War. Perhaps this struck me because I have just spent millions of hours going through Bullet articles of the 1970s. Even though many people did not agree with the war, Naomi Craig included, not everyone protested. I always thought that a lack of political activism and expression was due to the lethargic nature of an American. It was interesting to read that Naomi's reasons instead came from her respect for fellow mothers. Something that has been evident in all of my reading for women's history on African Americans is this strong sense of community. Even though Naomi did not have a child at war, she supported the mothers who did. It must have been so incredibly tough to have a child serving overseas in a war you did not support. ~Juliann Boyles<br />
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Very interesting piece. As a white history major, maybe I'm biased, but '''I've always looked at Vietnam as a class war in terms of who was drafted and sent over, not that people were selected due to race. Unfortunately, because more whites could afford to go to college, it gives the appearance of being an unjust system for African-Americans. I've known a number of Vietnam vets over the years. The common thread is not their race, but the fact that most of the kids drafted were poor''', and when they returned, as Mrs. Craig implied, they were treated with contempt and disdain as baby killers. Mrs. Craig's reminscences in regards to the assasination of Dr. King and the subsequent riots were poignant. I highly reccomend Dr. Crawley's post WWII history class in regard to this. I remember Dr. Crawley giving a vivid lecture regarding 1968. The events as they unfolded, with the assasination of Dr. King and Robert Kennedy less than two months apart, the nightly war footage, the riots, and the riots outside the 1968 Chicago Democratic convention all gave observors at that moment the idea that the world was falling apart, at least in the U.S. I think the title of that web page, "The Whole World is Watching," was lifted from the chants of protestors at the 1968 convention. That entire war in general was an experience that I believe scarred an entire generation. <br />
Phil Novalski.<br />
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I felt that this article gave the reader a veiw of the Vietnam war that is rarely looked at. My (suburban upper middle-class white) mentality has always thought of the draft as something that if you didnt want to go, you simply had to go to college. I actually had never thought that if one couldn't afford college then they had no choice than to fight in a war they might not agree with at all. I've personally never really given thought to the draft and the effect it had on lower class people and during that time, specifically minorities. --Julie Robert</div>192.65.245.82https://mcclurken.umwhistory.org/wiki/index.php?title=328--Week_12_Questions/Comments328--Week 12 Questions/Comments2008-04-10T14:57:09Z<p>192.65.245.82: /* Rosa Parks and Virginia Foster Durr */</p>
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<div>== Rosa Parks and Virginia Foster Durr ==<br />
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'''Who is Virginia Foster Durr?'''<br />
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I too have heard of Rosa Parks story but never the details like this article had. What I thought was so interesting was how a bus boycott lasted a year and how all of the black people denied having anything to do with it, and their white bosses went along with the lie, because they needed people to do stuff around their house, and take care of their children. Not only that but everyone new that everyone was lying and there was nothing that anyone could do about it other than cops writing stupid tickets. When the boycott was over I wonder if their were still problems (I imagine so), because there is always that one person who ruins it for everyone, or starts trouble.--Michelle M.<br />
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I enjoyed the piece this week that focused mostly on Mrs. Rose Parks in MAW. I always knew the general story about Mrs. Parks, but never details to this extent. I knew there was a bus boycott, but I didn't realize it went on for a year. Just think of the revenue the bus companies suffered. I wonder why it lasted so long. Mrs. Parks really was a remarkable woman though. --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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I really enjoyed this article on Rosa Parks. I knew about her and what she did but never really knew all the details. There seemed to be so much more to the story than I had always been told. I really liked how it talked about going to get her at the jail and then the trial. It is amazing to me that she started so much without really realizing it. -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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The story of Rosa Parks to me is both saddening and uplighting at the same time if that's possible. We know the black perspective on the issue but what was the white's perspective? Did all the white feels the same way and come to the same agreement or were there varying opinions? What did the white people on the bus think that day in history? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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'''I found it interesting in the reading in “Civil Rights Activists” (in MAW) that the black men and women who participated in the bus boycott refused to admit it. Were there any legal actions that could have been taken for participating in the boycott?''' It also talked about some of the legal actions that were taken toward both black and white women who seemed to be aiding in the boycott. “The black people formed car pools, and the city tried cracking down on them by arresting the drivers for going two miles an hour over the speed limit,” (224).''' Were they really being arrested in the sense that they were being taken to jail, or were they fined and ticketed?''' You would think that arresting a lot of people for a crime this small would eventually just cost the city more money and resources than necessary. --Jessica Kilday<br />
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I also found this piece well pretty awesome. I agree with Kelley when she said, its amazing how Rosa Parks started such a strong movement without even realizing it. Something that I also found interesting was the unspoken support, when people would talk to others about not taking the bus, that it is nice of them to support the boycott, and people would reply with any excuse possible on why they are not taking the bus. I also liked how the white women supported it as well, even though it was for their own agenda, but when the police started to pull them over I loved how they would respond,saying if you want to come clean my house then fine but until then I will keep driving her to and from her home. The fact that even whites were participating in the boycott really shows the impact that Rosa Parks had. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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I thought a really important part of the Montgomery bus boycotts was the fact that it was almost necessary that black women stayed quiet. I would have assumed, not reading this piece, that most participants would have been proud of being a part of the cause and I was quite surprised to find out that they were silent. I didn't think that admitting to participating could be as risky as it was. In reality women could have lost jobs or face legal fines for such a simple action. Their silence was ultimately their weapon. -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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I found it really interesting to read about Rosa Parks and the bus boycott. '''It was interesting how those who were boycotting would not admit they were doing it. Were they expecting a backlash for boycotting? The way I have always thought of the civil rights movement was that they were proud of their convictions and strongly supported the movement. By boycotting they were supporting the movement but why deny it when asked?''' That seems strange to me.~~Mary Beth Conrad<br />
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I had the same reaction as Meredith. It's interesting to look at early white feminists and activists and compare them to female black activists. While educated, middle class women often characterized the former, it was more difficult for any black woman to openly take up protest against the things that oppressed them. Rosa Parks was basically middle class for black women back then as were many of these women who supported the boycott. But unlike middle class white women during this time and earlier, these women often had to work. Between household duties, motherly duties, and work duties it is hard to imagine these women even had time to be activists in civil rights groups. But, as for all this "I thought black people were proud of their convictions" so "why did they deny it?"-I must respond that in the early 1950s the movement was still young. the south was still full of danger for non-white people who caused a lot of uproar against the way things were. And a black woman (with all her responsibilities and dependents) could not afford to get arrested or lose her job. I think attitudes started dramatically changing more into the late 60s amongst average people, because they had the Civil Rights Acts to use against discriminators, average people (not professional activists like Ella Baker) were not legally protected in the 1950s for even the smallest, personal protests. --Jackie Reed<br />
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Like many of my classmates the detail about this article that struck me was the fact that many of the men and women who were participating in the boycott denied it when they were asked. I would have thought that because its an issue they clearly felt strongly about that they would be willing to admit that they were a part of it. I also enjoyed seeing that the white women supported the black women through this, even if it was simply because they needed someone at their house to do the work. Although i do wonder, how much of it was because of that or were they, like the black men and women, using it as an excuse to cover up their support?- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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I thought this article was very interesting. I too have heard the Rosa Parks story many times but never with this much detail. The thing that surprised me the most was the support the white women gave the black women. I was not surprised the balck women lied about their involvement because that would be dangerous for them. I was surprised to hear about all the white women who would drive their black maids to and from work and then deny it. It was also interesting to read about how the cops tried to stop it by giving tickets to any one they thought was supporting the boycott. - Christine W.<br />
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Just a random comment: Before I read this I didn’t know that Rosa Parks was sitting in the section of the bus for African Americas and only when the white section was full did the bus driver ask her to vacate her seat for a white man. I always thought she was sitting in the first seat on the bus. It really doesn’t matter where she was sitting, the whole thing is wrong. It just changed the mental image of this historic scene in my head. Also… '''I know that gender ideals were really strict at this time… in this situation how did a man balance gender with race? Like, the guy on the bus that Rosa Parks was suppose to give her seat to… did he think “I should stand and let the lady sit.” When did people’s concepts of race trump there concept of gender norms?''' – Cat Debelius<br />
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Also I agree with everyone that this was an awesome article you really could see the history being made with so many important figures in their early stages, and the ordinary people on the outskirts who really made it all possible. One question that came to my mind as i was reading was: '''Did the cops write those tickets out of their own personal rejudice or was there an order from the powers that be?''' ---- Landon Davis<br />
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Rosa is a hero, I feel that her friend Virginia Foster Durr is as well. As a white women to fight for civil rights in the 50's is remarkable. Together with her husband, they did what they could for the cause, even getting a traffic ticket as a result of transporting black women to and from work. --Nikole Wellman<br />
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'''Why didn't the NAACP set something like this up sooner, and on purpose.''' If I was a leader of the NAACP I would have black people out breaking all kinds of minor laws like that, in order to get to court and challenge the constitutionality. Once they won the case did they begin to do this? ----- Landon Davis<br />
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It was so interesting how the women who supported the bus boycott denied why they were walking home. It is understandable that in such a volatile situation they wouldn't admit to what they were doing. But I still found it extremely brave that these women still did it even though they were afraid. -Kendall Haring<br />
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I just want to discuss what Amanda said a little more about white support of the Civil Rights Movement. The way the Durr's immediately rushed to help Rosa Parks after her arrest was remarkable to me. Cliff didn't hesitate because he would be bailing a black woman out of jail, he hesitated because he didn't have the money. ''' To me, that amount of interracial support is incredible, especially when it came to offering women rides during the boycott. Please tell me this is more popular than I get the feeling it was.''' --Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I also found it interesting that black and white women had to lie about supporting the bus boycott. Society still needed money to support their families and to have jobs available. The boycott was definitely an improvement for the civil rights movement just society could not completely stop to support it. –Ashley Scutari<br />
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'''What I found interesting about this article is the difference between Rosa Parks's account of what happened and Virginia Foster Durr's account. I can't help but think about whether Durr was sort of spicing up the story or Parks was employing some common euphemisms of the time.''' --Justin Mattos<br />
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The "Conspiracy of Silence" regarding the Montgomery bus boycott was an interesting facet that I hadn't known about. However, I recalled the movie "Mississippi Burning," and '''remembered that while much of the white racism was overt, the police harrassment of many blacks and some sympathetic whites was often covert. Its clear the Mrs. Durr was stopped and ticketed for driving a black woman to work, but obviously the police officer wouldn't state that aloud.''' He was probably following a policy laid down by his police chief that was given orally, so that they could deny such a policy existed. - Phil Novalski.<br />
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I really enjoyed reading about Rosa Parks and the Montgomery Bus Boycott. Before reading this article, I had never read or heard about it in this much detail. What I think is particularly striking about this piece is that Rosa Parks comes off as this quiet and mild-mannered woman -- someone who you would never think would challenge the constitutionality of a law--but she is not hesitant at all to do so. --Katie Nelson<br />
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Along with everyone else here, i found this article to be very enlightening, i had often heard the story of Rosa Parks and the bus boycott, but i had never really gotten details, i have to say that the need for people to work makes things like boycotts possible and that this situation showed that especially well what with everyone lying simply because they needed the work and lobar that was being done by african americans. -Julie Robert<br />
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== Cynthia Griggs Fleming, “Ruby Doris Smith Robinson and Black Women’s Leadership in SNCC” ==<br />
'''The entire time I was reading this essay, the only thing running through my mind was, "Good grief Robinson is incredible!"''' What I truly loved about her is that she cared for the movement. She wasn't about appearances, she wasn't about making herself known, she wasn't about making the world aware of how much she did, she just went after what she believed in. She pushed boundaries and, as a black woman during a white return to domesticity, really stood up for her beliefs. We read and learn about Rosa Parks and Ella Baker and all these other prominent women involved with the Civil Rights movement and all of it is empowering. Reading about even more women than the "big names" that we've all known since elementary school makes it that much more impressive. These women went against overwhelming odds and had their femininity attacked because of the way they stepped outside their "feminine roles." It's impressive how involved women were in the Civil Rights movement, as well as how high up their positions were within the organizations. However, I'm still having a hard time grasping the fact that Ruby was a debutante. And, as a former majorette myself, I'm proud to learn she twirled a baton at one point too. -- Kelly Wuyscik<br />
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I also really enjoyed this article and fully believe that Ruby Doris Smith Robinson is a role model that all people should look up to. She was involved in the movement because it was something that she really believed in, and she truly did not want any publicity out of it, which I loved reading because a lot of times today when someone does something good its always wondering if they did it because they cared or because they wanted the attention. '''I also enjoyed reading about how their femininity came under attack because of their leadership positions- but I'm also wondering how often this still happens today?'''- Elizabeth Frank<br />
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I find it interesting that the black women's feminity was questioned because of their activism. ''' "Even though the behavior of black women activists did not always fit contemporary notions of proper female behavior, it did fit comfortably into an established tradition of black female assertiveness."(548) The essay also goes on to state that the feminine side was important to the activist women, but I wondered if their perception of feminine was based on a "white" middle-class ideal'''.--LisaM<br />
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I think Fleming's piece goes to show that the unpublicized, unrecognized nature of Robinson represents the work of African American women during the civil rights efforts, in general. As one worker states, "We've been getting beaten up for years trying to integrate lunch counters, movies, and so on...But these white girls come down here for a few months and get all the publicity. Everybody talks about how brave and courageous they are. What about us?"(549) '''All I could think after reading was, what were white women doing that was honestly comparatively newsworthy? I can imagine a reason for racial tensions amoung women after reading this piece. I think that black women were not getting the "right" type of publicity that they sought for their causes from southern institutions.''' -- Meredith Bojarski<br />
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Question/comment: '''Is being a strong woman, or in this case a strong and resilient black woman, still looked upon as unnatural, or a liability today? It's sad, and ironic, that such a strong, spirited lady would be viewed as unattractive and unlady-like because of this her courage and strength. Do these gender politics still apply as much today, particularly in the black communtiy?''' - Phil Novalski.<br />
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== Mirta Vidal Reports on the Rising Consciousness of the Chicana About Her Special Oppression, 1971. ==<br />
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After reading the article in MP, I feel like the arguments Chicanas had were no different than other races. Obviously they had some fair arguments to make but issues such as female oppresion and childcare, didn't everyone have that same problem unless you were a member of the upper class? -- Rose Ferguson<br />
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The reading in MP deals with the Chicanas growing awareness of their oppression. '''Many of the challenges they faced were similar to those of women of other races, however, they were oppressed as a “nationality, as workers, and as women,” (455).''' Within their own race, men had trouble dealing with their opposition to their oppression because they feared that it wouldn’t threaten their own power. Many of the things these women fought for, affected them as women (i.e. abortion, childcare, contraception, etc…), so how would this “pose a threat to their ability to rule?” (456). I think Vidal makes a good point in the end when she basically says that there needs to be equality within the race itself (i.e. between chicanas and Chicanos) before the race, in its entirety, can be seen as an equal in society. '''This brings up the idea or debate on how much influence intra-racial discrimination has on inter-racial discrimination.''' --Jessica Kilday<br />
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I agree with Rose, after reading this article I had a hard time seeing how the problems the Chicanas had were any different than the problems of other women. I understand that people of different races do have different issues and experiences, I just felt like this article did not do a good job of demonstarting those differences. - Christine W.<br />
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If female inferiority is such an “Anglo thing” how did it get incorporated into so many other cultures? I feel like it is prevalent all over the world. – Cat Debelius<br />
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Kind of builidng of what Cat said about the "Anglo thing" I found it very interesting that the men tried to opress the women by comparing there movements to those of white peoples'. This shows that they obviously did not care for our culture or ways very much and had a negative opinion of white people as a whole. I have noticed this same tool being used to try and manipulate people of other races, and times especially within the white community (linking feminism to lesbianism, and communists).---Landon Davis<br />
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I like the point that Jessica brought out of the reading. With the inequality within a race, how are the Chicanas ever going to free of racial oppression from other races? If they can't even respect other Chicanas regardless of class, then I agree with Vidal's point. Equality has to start within your own race before you can receive respect from others outside of your culture. -Kendall Haring<br />
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I agree with Rose too on how other women were struggling with the same situations, it was not just the Chicanas. '''What I felt was unfair was the statement about how the doctor without the woman’s consent wanted to see her reaction when given placebo pills that did not prevent conception. His main reason for this was that women would not understand the difference between birth control pills and placebos.''' –Ashley Scutari<br />
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I snickered at the "Anglo thing" comment as well. Mirta Vidal wanted control over her own body so she can have have a right to have a legal abortion, child care, rights to use contraceptives....but The Women's Liberations Movement was a "Anglo thing". '''The Chicana's organize their one group working towards the same goal as white women. Both groups could have been one super strong group if they worked together... you know ..."Girl Power"''' --Nikole Wellman<br />
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I don't know about the rest of you, but my overwhelming feeling while reading this article was one of confusion. Who are the Chicanas? I feel like I need some more content knowledge to fully appreciate this piece. I agree with the several previous statements about the plight of this minority - it was one experienced by many women. Of course the experiences of a minority female are aggravated by the acute racism the country has had and still has today. One of the most unsettling parts of this piece was the part about the doctor prescribing placebos to his patients under the disguise of birth control, and of course the women got pregnant. The doctor's reasoning? Because "Mrs. Gomez from the West Side" just wouldn't understand such things. Unfortunately, I still see this racial prejudice today. I often hear snide comments from a few men about how I can't do something "because I'm a woman." so from personal experience, that MD really pissed me off. ~Juliann Boyles<br />
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'''Since Chicanos are Latin American, is not their sexual discrimination very close to being exactly the same as those experienced and perpetuated by white people? They have the same European origins and the concepts of femininity contained within machismo and male chauvinism are almost the same.''' I wonder how that changes things. They certainly did not have the same situation as black women as far as sexual discrimination within their culture was concerned. --Justin Mattos<br />
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The demands of the Chicanas were fairly strange. They did not seem to be quite as focused or realistic. After reading about the Civil Right Movement, how realistic can it sound for a group to demand 24 hour child care? --Justin Mattos<br />
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I have to agree with Justin on some of the demands made by the Chicanas...24 hour child care. If you don't have time to raise your children because of school, work etc., then wait to have them. I feel that this type of demand decredits the rest of their argument. When reading this essay, I had to remind myself that this took place in the United States. Each ethnic group looked to carve out their own niche or take their piece of the pie. I think if all women, regardless of race and class, had got together on the issues, women may have resolved these issues much sooner.--LisaM<br />
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'''As I was reading this piece, the section discussing that Chicanas suffer from a triple form of oppression--an oppressed nationality, as workers, and as women-- really stood out to me. In class we have talked about how African-American women are often the "worst off" because they suffer from both racism and sexism. Do you think that African-American women and Chicanas suffer from some of the same problems since they are both members of more than one oppressed group?''' --Katie Nelson<br />
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== Naomi Craig's interview ==<br />
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Mrs. Naomi Craig's interview really lets the reader get a feel for how life was for her and her children. There were hard times, but they dealt with them. She discussed the problems she had with finding a house and a job just because of the color of her skin. She also never agreed with the Vietnam and what it did to children and their mother's who couldn't afford to send their children to college to get out of the draft. I know my dad had a draft card # for the Vietnam war and almost had to go... they got within 10 calls of his number before the war was declared over. I would hate to know the feeling that just because you can't afford college, you HAVE to go fight that war... --Ashley Wilkins<br />
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Naomi Craig's interview, '''she talks about how her and her husband had a hard time buying a home, and she addressed the issue how blacks also had a hard time getting jobs. ''' I had to read "The Orgins of the Urban Crisis" for this week in my American Landscape class and it talks about exactly what she has adressed here in her interview. You would think that realtors wouldn't care who they were selling too, as long as they were making money doing it. I also couldn't believe how difficult they made it for black people to get a job. Also the book talked about how the realtors would use the fact that whites wanted to move if one black person moved into their neighborhood to their advantage to profit more. '''Although it only talked about the city of Detroit this obviously happened in other places. Most neighborhoods today are still mostly one race. Do we do it on purpose or not still? How many of you have come from a mostly white or mostly black neighborhood?'''--Michelle M.<br />
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Naomi Craig's interview was very interesting and eye opening for me. I knew about the hardships that blacks faced but at the same time I really didn't understand them. Reading her interview really showed what she had to deal with. I guess since it was more like a story or listening to someone tell stories it made it all seem much more real. I was really surprised to read about how her daughter who was 3 years younger then her son was able to finish school at the same time just because she was interested in studying. That is something so difficult to do and I would have thought it almost not possible for blacks at the time due to segregation. When she talked about Martin Luther King's assassination it made it really showed her feeling. It was a hard time for many people and you can really see how is death affected her when she said "When Martin Luther King died I felt as though the light had gone out of the world." -- Kellye Sorber<br />
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To me my favorite history to read are the personal accounts of real people, anyone can write about anything, but the emotions that come alive in a personal account is so much more. Naomi Craig's interview really fascinated me, because for years and this semester I have been learning about all the hardships blacks had to face, but I really didn't know the real extent of it all. '''I love that her children succeeded in their lives despite all the segregation, that her daughter who was 3 years younger then her brother graduated at the same time. I feel like this was possible because they had lived in the north but, the north wasn't that much of an easier place to live then the south.''' I think my favorite line was when Craig was talking about how she went out to get a job when she finished high school and she was told there was no way she was going to find a job. When she says "And here I was dressed lovely, thinking that was the right first step. And here was some dowdy, ugly woman telling me I couldn't have a job." I just started laughing because it is a response any woman would have given to the situation. I can totally see where Craig is coming from, why is this ugly woman so special that she can have a job over a pretty black girl? If you are going to base hiring people on skin color why not hire them based on their looks as well?It truly is amazing to me how these people went through so much and so many of them came out with their heads held high, it really shows how strong a people they were and are today. -- Amanda Taub<br />
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Perhaps one of the most striking pieces of Naomi's interview, for me at least, was when she talked about the protests of the Vietnam War. Perhaps this struck me because I have just spent millions of hours going through Bullet articles of the 1970s. Even though many people did not agree with the war, Naomi Craig included, not everyone protested. I always thought that a lack of political activism and expression was due to the lethargic nature of an American. It was interesting to read that Naomi's reasons instead came from her respect for fellow mothers. Something that has been evident in all of my reading for women's history on African Americans is this strong sense of community. Even though Naomi did not have a child at war, she supported the mothers who did. It must have been so incredibly tough to have a child serving overseas in a war you did not support. ~Juliann Boyles<br />
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Very interesting piece. As a white history major, maybe I'm biased, but '''I've always looked at Vietnam as a class war in terms of who was drafted and sent over, not that people were selected due to race. Unfortunately, because more whites could afford to go to college, it gives the appearance of being an unjust system for African-Americans. I've known a number of Vietnam vets over the years. The common thread is not their race, but the fact that most of the kids drafted were poor''', and when they returned, as Mrs. Craig implied, they were treated with contempt and disdain as baby killers. Mrs. Craig's reminscences in regards to the assasination of Dr. King and the subsequent riots were poignant. I highly reccomend Dr. Crawley's post WWII history class in regard to this. I remember Dr. Crawley giving a vivid lecture regarding 1968. The events as they unfolded, with the assasination of Dr. King and Robert Kennedy less than two months apart, the nightly war footage, the riots, and the riots outside the 1968 Chicago Democratic convention all gave observors at that moment the idea that the world was falling apart, at least in the U.S. I think the title of that web page, "The Whole World is Watching," was lifted from the chants of protestors at the 1968 convention. That entire war in general was an experience that I believe scarred an entire generation. <br />
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